HomeMy WebLinkAboutCC 1974-12-19 MinutesCITY OF MIATVII
SPECIAL
COMMISSION
MINUTES
OF MEETING HELD ON DECEMBER 19, 1974
PREPARED BY THE OFFICE OF THE CITY CLERK
CITY HALL
H. D. SOUTHERN
CITY CLERK
RALPH G. ONGIE
ASSISTANT CITY CLERK
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NIX
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FUNERAL HOMES - REQUEST FOR
ESCORT SERVICE
WATER & SEWER TRANSFER AGMT WITH COUNTY-
60 ACRES FOR VIRGINIA KEY TREATMENT
PLANT -SLUDGE LINES -SITE FOR CONVENTION
CENTER
BICENTENNIAL PARK -ELIMINATING
PROPOSED VELLODROME
RETIREMENT SYSTEM
PROPOSED AMENDMENTS
DECEMBER 19,1974
DISCUSSION
M-74-1392
M-74-1393
DISCUSSION
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8=25A
26=27
27=28
MINUTES OF SPECIAL MEETING
CITY COMMISSION OF MIAMI, FLORIDA
On the 19th day of December, 1974, the City Commission of Miami, Florida
met at its regular meeting place at City Hall in said City in special session
called by the Mayor to consider business of public import. The meeting was
called to order at 5:00 o'clock P.M. by Mayor Maurice Ferre with the following
members of the Commission present: Reverend Gibson, Mrs. Gordon, Mr. Plummer,
Mr. Reboso and Mayor Ferre. Absent: None.
1. FUNERAL HOMES - REQUEST FOR ESCORT SERVICE:
Mrs. Athalie Range appeared and made the following staement:
My name is Athalie Range, and I live at 5727 NW 17th Avenue. I am here in
behalf of the Range Funeral Home and all funeral homes in the City of Miami and
Dade County. I have come today to discuss a matter with you that I think you
should be cognizant of. The services that we are now receiving from the escort
division of the City of Miami. For the past twenty years or so we have been
having police escorts on funerals, and as time has gone on and the traffic has
increased, the need for the escorts is at least -as great as it ever has been, and
as time goes on it becomes more so, but within recent months the escort service has
been completely cut from having escorts throughout the whole funeral service to
simply escorting the funeral procession from the church or the funeral home to the
cemetery. Now, during the time that the County still had a full squadrom of escorts,
we at least had the County services, and they, in many instances, came into the
City to escort us from the house to the church. Nevertheless, because I understand
the escort for the County has now been cut to four men --they have four motorcycles
now --they have completely cut out their escorting at all. The group of people from
another county, from Palm Beach County, came in and began escorting county services,
but of course with their having to come into the City --they got no worry from the
County; they are allowed to escort= --but when they cameinto the City the law was
enforced, and I understand that these people no longer come because they were
ticketed on one occasion, and they were advised not to continue coming through the
City Limits. My problem and the problem of all other funeral homes is the fact
that the escort service is needed just as greatly from the point of the home to the
church or the funeral home as it is from the church or the funeral home to the
cemetery, and I suppose this was brought home to me very forcefully just Monday of
this week when I was escorting, I mean I was carrying a service without an escort
from the home to the church, and at the corner of NW 17th Avenue and 46th Street
there was a collision with a car coming down 17th Avenue and one of the cars crossing
in the funeral procession. 0f coursewe were fortunate that no one was hurt. A
Miami Police Officer was called, and when he came and saw the circumstances he said,
well, I am not going to ticket anybody; just everybody fix their own cars. This is
very good in that tere were no injuries, but if there had been deaths there, then
what would have been the result. We could not have said everybody resurrect their
own dead, surely. i.:I'.am'.hereto ask for some kind of relief. The officers who have
escorted us through the years have always been very courteous and fine gentlemen,
and we have enjoyed a very fine relationship with them. However, the service that
we are receiving is simply not adequate, and I would like, for one, to know what makes
it more important to carry a service from a church to a cemetery than it does to carry
it from the home to the church or its destination. It simply is not logical to have
service from one point to another, and then cut the service off and not have it, and
I have come to ask --it is very rough on a funeral director to attempt to bring a
funeral procession through the heavily travelled areas --and I know that Commis-
sioner Plummer knows exactly what I am talking about. This happens to s daily, and
we are really becoming afraid to attempt to bring a funeral through, andyet it is a
part of our services, and if we 'are to continue to furnish the public the services
in the manner in which they have become accustomed to having been served, then
we are going to need some relief from some sort.
Mr. Plummer: I would prefer, because I know what the problems are, and I got
into it yesterday, and I think that we should hear from, through Mr. Andrews, Lt
Harms, whose responsibility it is --and I was able to talk to Mr. Harms on a pro-
fessional basis for a change, but he brings up some very pertinent points.
DEC 191974
P. W. Andrews, City Manger: One point of clarity, if I may ask Mrs. Range
one question: Is the home and the cemetery within the City of Miami, or is the
funeral home outside of the City?
Mrs. Range: There are funeral homes all over the county, some within the
corporate limits, and others within the unincorporated area.
Lt. Harms: I am not really clear at this point which of Mrs. Range's points
you want me to address.
Mayor Ferre: It's simple. She says she had some escort service from somebody
in Palm Beach, and that wasn't allowed, and she had a problem on Monday, and now
what does she do..
Mrs. Range: I haven't personally lhad ;escort service from Palm Beach.
I mentioned that there is an escort service from Palm Beach who has on occasions
been called by a funeral homes. Traffic has not bothered to ticket these people,
but I understand that on an occasion or two they were ticketed in the City of Miami,
and since that time they have not returned. And this is for any funeral home; and
not for Range Funeral Home alone.
Lt. Harms: I have spent a. considerable amount of time with this problem since
June of 1973, and this is dating it'beuk into rare i.ecent times,since I have been
the commanding officer of the enforcement unit, which is responsible for providing
those escorts that are permitted under the guidelines that have been established
through myself and the administration for the handling of escorts within the
city. Now to lace this in a little better perspective, my involvement with the
enforcement unit took place in January of 19 50. At that point in time we had
roughly fifty-eight officers assigned to the motorcycle function. To place this
more in perspective, at the present time we have twenty-five officers, plus supe--
visors, so there has been a decrease in the total number of officers in the traffic
section since 1950. Now this creates a part of the problem, especially in view of
the fact that since that time our community has grown greatly and our ability to
provide unlimited services naturally had to be cut back to a point of reasonableness
in terms of what we could provide based on the number of hours in a day and the num-
ber of officers available for that service. As a result of this, when I cam back to
the enforcement unit in late June of 1973, I attempted to study the problem, especially
as it related to requests for unlimited service, county -wide, including other munici-
palities, and as a result of a study that I did at that time it was determined by
myself; it was discussed with Operations Chief Watkins at that time, and the policy
was established, more particularly relating to the point that Mrs. Range brought up
about not picking up at home, the policy was established not to make pick-ups at
homes unless the requests for that service met certain basic guidelines. Now, in
order to place this in proper perspective I think I should point out to the Commis-
sion that the State Law does have some cotrol in terms of what constitutes a funeral
procession. A funeral procession is identified or defined under the State Uniform
Traffic Control Chapter as four or more motor vehicles accompanying a body of a
deceased person in the daytime when each of such vehicles has its headlights lighted --
and then it goes on to say certain other things. Now many of the escorts that we
had been providing in years gone by were not in fact under these guidelines, Chapter
316 being a fairly recent law in terms of our time and in terms of the total involve;
went of the enforcement unit was not in existence when we were providing many of the
escorts from the home; and an escort from the home generally consisted of either
one or two limousines with people in them ranging generally from two people, plus
the drivers on up to maybe a half dozen per limousine, and oftentimes did not include
the body of the deceased. This constituted what we commonly referred to as a VIP
escort and not in relation to the funeral itself in terms of having a body of the
deceased, with a procession, and therebconstituting a funeral procession. Now as
a result of the studies that I did at that time in order to cut down a total time
involvement --and let me digress for a moment, if I may --if we picked up a
funeral procession at the house, quite frequently it would go to the chapel of the
funeral homa.thft.was actually serving the needs of the deceased family; from there
occasionally it went to the church, and from there, and this is generally speaking, to
the cemetery. It was not uncommon for this process quite frequently to run upwards of
four hours. Now by tradition, or through custom, or whatever the reason, a large
majority of our black funerals do, in act, take place on Saturday, and as a result of
the large time involvement for each procession we finally got to the point where we
2
DEC 191974
just did not have enough officers to serve the needs of the majority of the
funeral homes in the same manner that we served them years before, keeping in
mind ---
Mayor Ferre: Lt. Harms, how do we solve the problem?
Lt..Harms: I haven't completed addressing the point. The point I hope that
I am making in terms of what Mrs. Range addressed is that a policy was established
in October of last year that funeral homes were advised by a letter from the de-
partment explaining what the policy was in terms of picking up funerals at the
residences. Now between that time and this time to the best of my. knowledge Mrs.
Range has not brought this matter to my attention in terms of how it affected her
operation, and during that time period I have seenMrs. Range on no less than half
a dozen occasions in serving the needs of her business, in terms of escorts. The
Twin City Escort, which was a group that came in --I spoke with them on at least
a half dozen occasions; I spoke to the attorney for the organization, who is also
part of its board of directors; I advised them, and am attempting to bring this down
in time span so it.won't take too long to relate it --I advised them that it was
necessary to comply with Chapter 316 of the Florida Statutes whenever they operated
in the City of Miami. I advised them of this on the telephone and in person. I had
a representative go up to a meeting that they first put on when they first thought
about bringing this service to DAde County, and=I sent them a copy of the Florida
Statutes. I advised them that.we wouldbe more than happy to cooperate with them in
any manner possible, but this was not to be misinterpreted to the point where any-
one thought that we would overl000k the requirements we were obligated to fulfill
under Chapter 316 of the Florida Statutes. Now, as a result of this I was advised
by the company's owner, or alleged owner Mrsr---- that West Palm Beach County and
Dade County did not enforce the law against. their violations in terms of their hand-
ling escords. I suggested to her attorney and to her, that in order to remedy this
she would more appropriately take it before the Legislature of theState of Florida,
and that my suggestion that she continue to operate within the law would still stand.
As a result of two of her escort personnel being ticketed and ultimately booked on
the violations they committed, she decided no longer to provide this service as it
applied to the City. I spoke with her; I responded to a complaint by her attorney
in writing, and I assured them again that this should not be considered as harrass-
ment, but objective enforcement of the law, and I attempted to explain this, and I
say this in all sincerety, I don't think they understood, and we still stand in
that position.
Mrs. Range: I must clear up several things. I hope I am wrong, but I begin
to hear Lt. Harms as feeling that I am here to complain about the police officers,
and this is not it at all. I hope we will not have to use the word, harrassment
any more toady, because this is not my intent. I have never been harrassed from the
standpoint of escort services, and let's just leave that completely out, because
that is not my feeling at all, sir. My only differences with you regarding what
your remarks were : Yes, there was a time when we called escort services to
carry our services from the home to the chapel without the benefit of having human
remains with us, but when we were made aware that we were considered as VIP's and
not necessarily a funeral procession, then in order to get the escort service that
we feel is so greatly needed because we happen, as black funeral directors --and I
don't think this is separated by black or white; I think it affects all directors
and funeral processions --but we as black funeral directors have very few funerals
where there are only two or three cars leaving the home. We usually have a long
cortege of cars leaving the home, and as I said, when we were told on several
occasions that we had to have a body or bodies with us, then we began taking the
hearse to the home with us in order to comply. I am sure you remember when that
happened, sir. The next item is that even though we realize in some instances
services are extremely long, this happens some times; other times it does not; but it
does happen on occasion, and of' course. could not prevent this. We have tried to
on many instances, and we can see the Police Department not being able to tie their
men up for such long periods of time, but what I am here today saying, gentlemen is
that we need the service from the home to the church or the funeral home. If that
set of officers must be freed to go their way and another set come to take us to the
cemetery. I am saying the need is just as great. We are in traffic, and the
accident that I spoke of the other day which occurred on 17th Avenue and 46th Street,
because there was no police escort there,but when we got to the church the police
escort was there to take us to the cemetery. I am only saying that the need is as
great from one place to one destination as it is to the other,and I am not here to
complain, to insist or ask you to accept the Twin City Escort. All we need is
escort service. I mentioned, and Lt. Harms mentioned, that the County has not
enforced its laws against the Twin City Escort Services, but I am not here plead-
ing their case. I am here pleading the case of the citizenry of Miami and of Dade
County, and I would certainly hope that we would not have a fatality somewhere in
the streets trying to carry the funeral through before it is noted by this Commis-
sion and our department that the need is there. I may not have spoken to you
personally, sir, about the reduction in service, but there have been very, very
few times when escorts have come to the funeral home or to churches that I have
not remarked to them thatl would like to see the time come when we could have the
full service. We have certainly not infringed on them in not wanting to pay you.
We have paid from ten dollars up to the thirty dollars, which is the minimum now,
and we feel that there is a great need for it.
Mayor Ferre: •Is there any way that we can solve this problem?
Lt. Harms: Yes. Let me make just a couple of more comments ---
Mayor Ferre: Instead of making comments, would you give us a solution. I think
we understand part of the problem. Would you give us a solution, or part of the
solution?
It. Harm Yes, air.. The only.way we Can resnlve her problem:, ae she stated;
and also to address the needs of other funeral directors in the County, is to in,
crease the size of the enforcement unit, or to have private enterprise take it over,
When we talk about so many man hours in a day, we can only offer the services avail-
able from those officers that are off -duty, and this is an off -duty involvement.
When the County got rid of their motors many municipalities called us to provide
the services that had been provided by County motors.
Mayor Ferre: How many motors do we have now; about twenty-five?
Lt. Harms: We have twenty-five, plus five supervisors, including myself.
Mayor Ferre: Isn't that enough to do this?
Lt. Harms: No, sir. it's not. We cannot respond to all the requests. We
cannot go too far out into the County, because if we do we are just not able to
respond.
Mr. Andrews: Id fact, I set the pattern that we would not give service out-
side the City. We are using City taxpayers' equipment for off -duty policemen render-
ing a service, and it should not be done outside the City of Miami.
Mayor Ferre: Then why don't we let the private sector --the first choice to
the Miami Police, and if they can't do it --the first crack at it always, and if
you don't have the men and the men don't want to do it, then let the private sector
come in.
Lt. Harms: They are not entitled to do it under the law now, as I pointed out
to Mrs. Range.
Mayor Ferre: How do they do it in the County?
Lt. Harms: They are doing it illegally, if they are violating Chapter 316.
Reverend Gibson: The County has a responsibility for service to people.
Mr. Plummer: I operate a funeral home in the City and in the County. Over-
night the County informed me; forget it, we are not providing any more funeral
escorts, and I will tell you quite truthfully, for the last three or four
months we have been operating in the County in my Bird Road office, where we
disband the funeral at the funeral home and re -assemble it at the cemetery, and it
causes nothing but chaos. Now the rule that they put in, I don't like the rule, but
I happen to think it is a fair rule; that the Miami escorts are only involved if
your funeral originates or terminates in the City Limits of the City of Miami. Now
other cities have used other methods. What they have done is used private escort
services, but I think what Lt. Harms is trying to tell you is that he, nor the
Legal Department, nor this Commission have the right to tell West Palm Beach; go
ahead and violate the law. I can't say for the public record either that we can
say, don't enforce the law.
Mayor Ferre: What I am saying is, what's good for the goose is good for
the gander* and whatever the County is doing illegally to do this ----
Mr. Plummer: They ate not doing it illegally; they are just turning their
backs.
Lt. Harms: The County is apparently closing their eyes to the problem, sir.
Mrs. Range: On Tuesday of this week I appeared before the County Commission,
and they have an interim period until the 7th of January when they are going to
come back with a solution. They accepted from the group that was there copies of
their letters and their licenses in Palm Beach County, and they are going to see
what can be ---
Mayor Ferre: Mrs. Range, let me ask you; we have home rule here. They are
our legislative body for Dade County. Why can't they pass legislation that would
be permissive?
Lt. Harms: Not if it is in violation of the State Law.
Mr-; Andrews: Mr. Mayor, I can say that within reason that within the City
of Miami, if the Funeral Procession ends in the City of Miami we can handle it.
If it begins in the City of Miami we can handle it.
Mrs. Range: Right now if I called for an escort service, I would not be able,
even if I were carrying three cars and a body with me from the home to the funeral
home or the church, I would not be able to get the escort from the home to the
church. I would only be able to get it from the home to the church in the event
the burial was not going to take place in the City of Miami and the funeral was
going to disband there. In other words, we can only get one escort service per
funeral, and the need is for two, because the other day when the accident cccurred
that was before my escort service began.
Mayor Ferre: Can't we stretch this a little bit?
Lt. Harms: Yes, sir, in this respect we can. Mrs. Range is not completely
aware of conversations that have been had between my office and her office. When
the policy first came up, in October of last year, they --I am saying they collec-
tively referring to some of her employees --they were advised that a double escort
could in fact be obtained at a double cost. Mr. Plummer can tell you what the
problems are in this relation, and many people felt at the time that policy was
established that it was established in order to collect a double fee. Not the
case. It was a time problem, and if the total escort, including the home and the
chapel, and possibly a cemetery, got up in the neighborhood of four hours, then
somebody else was going to do without the service that they were requesting that
day. We are smaller and required to present more service.
Mr. Plummer: Are you saying that in fact you will run a double escort from
now until January 7th?
Lt. Harms: Under the existing guidelines that have been established the
answer is yes, sir, if it complies with the State Law, where there is the body of
a deceased and where there are four or more cars.
Mrs. Range: Are you saying, sir, that you will take us from the home to the
church?
Lt. Harms: As one escort, yes.
Mrs. Range: Yes; and from the church to the cemetery?
Lt. Harms: Yes, Ma'am, that's correct, if there is a body.
DEC 191974
•
Mt. Plummer: Let me give you a hypothetical, because I ran into this.
As a first funeral escort it cost a hundred and forty-three dollars.
Lt. Harms: Would you indicate that that vas not from the City of Miami?
Mr. Plummer: No, it was in the County.
Mrs. Range: I have paid as high as one hundred and one. Mine was in the
City.
Mr. Plummer: I want this understood, because,this could be a problem and
you know it could be a problem, and,I think if you stretch the rule for a con-
tinuation, hypothetically; you pick up at the house in the City; you take to the
County, a church; from the church in the County to the County Cemetery---
Lt. Harms: No, sir; we would not provide that.
Mr. Plummer: I think you should stretch it until the 7th of January, because
it did in fact start.
Lt. Harms: Under the existing guidelines, as two separate escorts. One would
be from the home to a church in the County. A separate escort would be from the
church in the County to a funeral home in the County.
Mr Plummer: But don't call it a separate. escort.
Lt. Harms: Yes, sir, that's exactly what I am calling it.
Mr. Plummer: You call it a continuation.
Lt. Harms: We are getting into semantics now.
Mr. Plummer: You are right, but I am trying to get you to the 7th of
January.
Lt. Harms: I can appreciate that, but I would, of course, have to discuss
this with Chief Watkins ---
Mr. Plummer: Why don't you take a few minutes and discuss it. You understand
the point. I am trying to eliminate problems for Mrs. Range.
Mayor Ferre: We are going to take a five minute break now while you seek some
advice.
The meeting was recessed briefly and reconvened with all members of the
Commission present.
Mr. Andrews: Mr. Mayor and members of the Commission, we will provide service
to any funeral procession that originates in the City of Miami or terminates in the
City of Miami until January loth. At the time that this service is called for, and
we understand what is involved in the service, we will inform those funeral directors
of the cost. I don!t think it is the concern of Mrs. Range whether we have two
shifts do this, or four shifts do this, as long as the service is provided, and she
knows what the cost is for that service. Now as a practical matter we may have to
end up having more than two officers involved, and when we do that the cost is going
to be higher than when there is only two, so you will be made aware of that.
Mrs. Range: That has been going on all the time, sir. If we have a service
originating in the City and terminating in the County, or the church is in the
County we have to call two separate escorts anyway, so unfortunately we would hate
to have to carry an additional burden, but this is passed on, unfortunately, to the
family. They want the services and they understand. We have paid as much as
seventy-four dollars for one funeral, as far as escorts are concerned. That in-
volves City and County. Now the one question I would have to ask you; when you
say if it originates and terminates---
Mr. Andrews: Or terminates. If the procession started out in the County
and ended up in the City of Miami it would be proper for us to handle it. If
it begins in the City of Miami and ends up somewhere in the County we would
handle it.
Mrs. Rage: Beautiful. We appreciate it.
Mr. Andrews: That's until January the 10th.
Reverend Gibson: Let me ask a question that nobody wants me to ask,but I
want to ask it. Since we are known --Chief you and Mr. Andrews might have to get
your heads together on this --why did we reduce this to twenty-five when here is
a service that --you see I am affected because if they don't come to that church,
man, I am in bad shape.
Garland Watkins, Acting Chief of Police: If I could try to answer that, for
the to last two years almost daily I have requests coming in from some part of the
community, from Mr. Andrews' office, through the Commission to Mr. Andrews, to try
to provide more police visibility out in the street. When you provide a service
it has got to come from somewhere, and I think that is what Lt. Harms is trying to
say. If the priority would be to take twenty-five men off the street and put them
in motorcycles, that's a decision that has to be made.
Reverend Gibson: If not twenty-five, how about maybe ten.
Mr. Plummer: Lieutenant, how many men do you have now?
Lt. Harms: Twenty-five officers, including three that are assigned full-time
to the taxi detail, plus five supervisors, which includes myself.
Mr. Plummer: What about if we increased it to forty?
Mr. Andrews: You would have to take them off the street to do that.
Mr. Plummer: I understand that.
Lt. Harms: In what regard?
Mr. Plummer: Would it help to alleviate the problems that are being
created for your servicing of these funeral details if you increased it to
forty? Would it eliminate the problems that you have?
Lt. Harms: Obviously it would work in that direction, towards eliminating
those problems, but of course it may not address some of the others.
Mr. Plummer: That's the longest yes or no I ever heard.
Reverend Gibson: Mr. Mayor, let's ask the Manager and the Chief and his
staff to look into the possibility. It is a service that is unique --and I want
to tell you if you get caught in that traffic out there any afternoon in this
city without an escort you are in plenty, plenty trouble.
Lt. Harms: May I offer a suggestion at this point? Perhaps if we should
increase the alloted number of officers in .the department toally it wouldn't be
objectionable to place the new officers in the enforcement unit.
Reverend Gibson: Chief, you all deal with it.
Mr. Plummer: Mr. Manager, I would like to have a report from you on January
the 9th about the increasing of the two wheel motorcycles for the City of Miami.
Mr. Andrews: Or decreasing.
Mr. Plummer: Or decreasing? Right after we cut the City Manager's staff we
will cut the motorcycles.
7
CEC 191974
2. WATER & StWER TRANSFER AGMT WITH COUNTY - 60 ACRES FOR VIRGINIA KEY
TREATMENT PLANT - SLUDGE LINES - SITE FOR CONVENTION CENTER:
P. W. Andrews, City Manager, made the following statement:
0n the matter of a resolution and discussion with reference to providing the
conveyance of the sixty acres of land on Virginia Key, with whatever other condi-
tions the.Commission will place in that resolution. And I want to say that there
are four matters that then are related. One is the transfer of the sixty acres
on Virginia Key, the other is the two 16-inch sludge lines, if they are actually
needed, and their routes; another matter is the ten million dollar balance in
general obligation bond issue funds the City is continuing to pay .in relation to
the whole rate structure, and the last matter is the payment of the fees to meet
the minimum requirements of the ordinance, which is two hundred ninety thousand
dollars a year.
Mr. Plummer: Did you resolve the one about the additional sixty acres being
adjacent?
Mr. Andrews: Yes; there is no question about that, and that is going to be written
into the ordinance. Mr. Lloyd is preparing to do that.
Mr. Plummer: I also understand, or do I understand, that they are going to
pay us 5.3 million dollars, pleas a specified piece of property —and when I say
specified; not only as to location, but also to the size --in the government
center free of charge.
Mr. Andrews: That's the intent.
Mr. Plummer: Well, that's going to be written in.
Mr. Andrews: Yes.
Mr. Plummer: So, in other words, the 5..3 million dollars is going to be paid
us in a lump sum at the time of signing.
Mr. Andrews: Yes. They are prepared, if I remember the dates correctly, if the
deed can be signed on the 8th of January they would be prepared to. make payment on
that date.
ti
Mr. Plummer: What about the delineation as to the size of the piece of property
which they are going to give us?
Mr. Andrews: We can include a general description, but I don't know that anyone
at this point in time knows the exact size based on our requirements for an auditorium.
That's yet to be, in 1974, to be really spelled out, and that in turn would determine
size. I think what we should do is to make sure that there is sufficient room. In
fact be over generous, and return property to the County if we have to, to insure that
the auditorium will go in without any difficulty.
Mr. Plummer: It doesn't work that way.
Mr. Andrews: Well, it is if you put that condition on it.
Mr. Plummer: Are you in accord that that condition should be put on it?
Mr. Andrews: Yes, sir.
Mr. Plummer: OK, now Mr. Sloan, (Garrett Sloan, Director of the Miami -Dade
Water & Sewer Authority) you know what my -contention has been all the way along.
I have still got it in the bottom of my craw; I don't like it; I don't think it is
necessary, and I think it is a waste of the taxpayers' money. I am referring to
the sludge line. I understand that the only reason that you are bringing this
sludge line and not putting an on -site drying area is because of a commitment you
made to North Miami. I also understand that the cost of the on -site plant as
opposed to bringing one or two sixteen -inch lines all the way to Virginia Key is
about four times the difference in money. Would you speak to those two points.
DEC 191974
Mr. Sloan: Well, first of all, on the matter of sludge lines, we had quite
a meeting yesterday in Mr. Andrews' office, staff meeting, and yesterday after-
noon Mr. Grimm pointed out certain inconsistencies in the various figures that
had been prepared on the comparison of Rouse, cost estimates of construction,
which I personally was not aware of. I would like the matter of sludge lines,
and sludge lines only, to be deferred to a date in January to give us a chance
to respond to the various points raised by Mr. Grimm. I am prepared to talk about
the need for the sludge lines, if you want to stay on that subject, from the stand-
point of the fact that the sludge is to be handled at Virginia Key. Your state-
ments are generally correct about the understanding, although it is not correct
that we, as an authority, promised North Miami or any other agency as such. We
inherited a situation when our Authority was formed. Sometime in 1971 there had
been a meeting by the County Commission, a public hearing type of meeting on the
subject of the plant location at Interama.. At that meeting various county commis-
sioners representing the north end of the county, as I understand it--and.I did
not attend it, but I am giving you the best that I know of it --insisted that since
the plant was to be within 800 feet of U.S. One, and not too far from other built-up
areas, that every possible measure be taken to make sure that it would be odor -free,
extensively landscaped, and could in no way create any problems. In order to con-
form to that request the county administration was intstructed by the Commission --
and I am not sure who made the suggestion or who pinned it down --but at that time
it was agreed that the disposals of sludge woO d be off -site. At that time there
was no definite location for the disposal of sludge. It was just one of those
things left open; sludge disposal would not be on the Interama site, on the eighty
acres. So when we entered the picture the consulting engineers were searching for
another location somewhere in Dade County to pump the sludge to for disposal. That
was the situation as we found it. The consulting engineers investigated a number
of refuse disposal sites, solid waste disposal sites, including the northeast
incinerator location, and they came up with a recommendation for using this 58th
Street Dump, which is directly west of the airport between 87th and 97th Avenues.
About the time they came up wth that recommendation other consulting engineers,
the firm that had worked on the over-all water quality management plan, took issue,
and also the State Health Department took issue, saying that they didn't want
great quantities of sewage sludge disposed of in an area where it could poten-
tiallypollute the water supply in the area, because that 58th Street dump is just
one and one-half miles from our existing well fields, and it is one and a half
mile from a future well field. So we were in a dilemma. And also I had time
running on me starting in the summer of 1973-and bearing in mind we merged in
April 1st of 1973--that we had to get out a definite plan and also advise the
Environmental Protection Agency people, who were in the final stages of preparing
their impact statements. Now the impact statements for the north district and
the central district had to address the disposal of sludge. That's the big func-
tion in any type of report. Needless to say, this was not an easy thing to re-
solve, but we were under the constraint that we couldn't have this sludge disposal
area anywhere west of the salt line, which made the areas that you could have it
very limited, because it was considered that it wouldn't be a hazard if you
polluted brackish water by having a sludge disposal facility east of the salt line
where the ground water is brackish and can't be used for water supply purposes. So,
with that dilemma, as it were, and also taking a good look at the fact that what
was proposed at the 58th Street Dump would result in another problem, namely the
problem of what do you do with the carry water. You have to pump this sludge --
it's a very thin slurry, and about three million gallons a day of liquid, and
then you concentrate it down to several hundred thousand gallons of the heavy
slurry, but the carry water is a raw sewage polluted type of problem. So what
we did is we checked on the load that would put on the sewer system, and of course
all of that would have had to be dumped in sewers extending out into west Dade
west of the airport; gravity sewers and pumping facilities, and be pumped back
through the City of Miami. Now three million gallons a day of liquid is equal
to about thirty thousand population from an equivalency of sewage usage; so we
saw a number of disadvantages. Some of them were more or less mandatory and others
were basically, fundamentally economical and functional disadvantages in locating
out there. The next thing that came to our minds was this: We have to handle an
awful lot of sludge at Virginia Key because we are going to a hundred and fifteen
million gallons a day on Virginia Key in the future.
Mayor Ferre: WhEre are we now?
9
rr. i91974
Mr. Sloan: We are treating on an annual basis in the order of about sixty-two.
It's up to about sixty-two on an annual basis.
Mayor Perre: So we are doubling it.
Mr. Sloan: Oh, yes, and of course these are projections on thebasis of
continued increase in population and growth of the area. It does include one
big component which we don't have now, and that's Miami Beach. That's about
twenty-five million gallons of that total of one hundred fifteen. So, knowing
that we had to have a big sludge disposal plant on Virginia Key in the first
place, and thinking ahead to economical joint operation, it appears that the
most logical place to locate the sludge facilities for the north district, with
the dilemma of not having any other place to discharge it,appeared to be Virginia
Key, because at least there we would solve two problems. One is we wouldn't be
polluting in any way the ground water in our water table; and number two, we
could combine in future operations one large single sludge operating facility.
I want to make it clear that the north district, the Interama plant and the
area served by the Interama plant, will have to pay their share in our accounting
procedures for the sludge discharged and handled there. That's the way we are
going to handle that, basically.
Mr. Plummer: You havcn't'hit at the point. Tell me very simply what an on -
site plant costs, and then tell me what the two lines, the 16-inch lines coming
down from Interama to Virginia Key is costing.
Mr. Sloan: The on -site plant, or any plant to dispose of that sludge, as I
recall in round figures is on the order of between twelve and fifteen million
dollars, wherever you put it. Now the pipe lines are something like five million
dolars. There is no question --and I am not trying to beg the question; I am
trying to be very straight forward --there is no question that capital outlay, on
a capital outlay basis it is always cheaper to treat sludge right at the plant
where it originates. There are a numer of cities in the country that for various
aesthetic reasons have elected to pump the sludge to another place for disposal.
The City of Cleveland, Ohio has two sewage plants on the lake front where the
public sees them as they drive along these elevated expressways and they look out
to the lake --and they are nicely landscaped and very well maintained. But they
have no sludge disposal facilities there. They pump thesludge many miles back
to the southwest part of Cleveland to an industrial area where they have a big
treatment plant and they combine the sludge treatment thre. They have operated
that way for about thirty years with no problems.
Mr. Plummer: Mr. Grimm, do you agree with those figures?
Vince Grimm, Director of Public Works: No. Our
their consultant's estimate, that it would cost seven
down Miami Beach; f.4 million dollars to come through
reverse that; seven million in the City of Miami; 5.4
Mr. Plummer: Twelve, thirteen million dollars.
reveal as far as ---
figures reveal, based on
million dollars to come
the City of Miami. No;
in Miami Beach.
And what do your figures
Mr. Grimm: It's cheaper to come down Miami Beach than it is to come through
the City of Miami. These are the consultant's estimates, their estimates. In our
review of them it would cost seven million dollars to run these lines through the
City; it would cost 5.4 to run them through the City of Miami Beach.
Mr. Plummer: What is opposed to the on -site as to the lines, the running?
What is the cost factor?
Mr. Grimm: We didn't estimate any sludge treatment at the Interama site.
Mr. Andrews: Considerably less. Mr. Sloan can tell you, but there are cir-
cumstances which prevent that. But he can answer the question.
Mr. Sloan: Well, wait a minute. I tried not to use adjectives. I tried
to use figures. I said if you treat sludge at the treatment plant, then you
don't have any off -site pumping or any off -site pipe line, so your cost is re-
duced by the entire amount, no matter what you would spend on a pipeline. I am
not trying to say that it wouldn't be cheaper from that cost standpoint. However,
EPA and the County Commission and the various other regulatory groups such as the
Department of Pollution Control of the State, and so on, have agreed that due to
the location at.Interama that the plant should not have sludge handligg facilities
located there.
Mr. Plummer: Well, Garrett, that's well and good, but what happens if you don't
get Virginia Key'? What if we tell you we don't want it on -site at Virginia Key?
Mr. Sloan: Then our project concept is broken, and I think I might as well throw
in the towel as far as trying to conduct this project. EPA, by the way, made a
remark, one of their top people; George Collins, who represents their office in the
State of Florida, made a remark to me in the middle of November that if they realized
we were going to have a problem to acquire the additional land on Virginia Key they
would not eve given us the forty and a half million dollar grant, and we have the
forty and a half million dollar grant ---
Mr. Plummer: In other words, come to the most important person last and hope
they will give in. Is that really what you are saying here?
Mayor Ferre: We are going to get black -jacked.
Mr. Sloan: Let me put this in the right perspective. We included in the
original three party agreement which has never been executed a section about ac-
quiring land on Virginia Key, and what we recommended and what we put there --and
no.objections were raised to it by any of the parties that read it, including many
of the people representing the City of Miami ---was that an appraiser be appointed
approved by both parties, and that we would live by and agree to whatever price the
appraiser came up with, and that is exactly what the 5.3 represents.
Mr. Plummer: I am not disputing that. No dispute.
Mr. Sloan: OK, now we started to get an appraiser --I want to put this in
perspective --we started to get an appraiser early in the summer of 1973. The
first appraiser who was suggested was Mr. Sol Bennett and it took Mr. Bennett
two or three months of consideration before he told us that he had a conflict
of interest and he didn't want to proceed. Then weasked the City administration
for a second appraiser, and the second appraiser named was Mr. Leonard Bisz, and
in both cases I sent each appraiser --and I personally have never met either of
these gentlemen --but I sent each one of them a complete set of documents to get
started with; the site layout and everything I knew about, and I think each of
these parties will tell you that we cooperated fully. So we didn't just start and
come to you last. We started to try to follow the procedure that seemed logical
and proper as early as June of 1973, which is roughly a year and a half ago.
Mr. Plummer: Garrett, about a year ago do you recall my objection at that
time about the sludge lines?
Mr. Sloan: I certainly do, and I also remember your questioning whether it
was likely that we would honor our agreement, and that I was in a position to
honor the statement that Invade whether the price that was agreed to that we
would pay it. I think you kind of wondered whether I was for real on that, or
what have you. We have had many other agreements with your administration, and I
think we have honored every one of them. We are not perfect. We have problems,
but we lay them right on the table and discuss them.
Mr. Plummer: Let me put this in perspective. Number one; I don't think there
is any qestion as to the money as to the lump sum. There was some; I thin it has
been resolved. Idon't think there is any question instis Commission's mind that you
must have that property, and we want to give it to you. I think the question that
is paramount is the question that jus•: to get the on -site plant at Interama you
gave them, or someone gave them, a commitment which was detrimental to Miami. Now,
all we are saying is, without us you can't move. As you said, you will throw in
the towel. It seems like it would be very logical to me that before you made any
commitment without a cmmitment from this Commission, you would have said to us,
the CityAof Miami, OK, we are wanting --North Miami is wanting us to make a commit-
ment. Will you go along with it? We were never offered that opportunity to agree
11 DEC 191974
or disagree. Now here we are down to the final days, and if this Commission has
the audacity to question anything we are wrong. We are going to be the bad
guys. The newspapers are going to tear us apart. But let me tell you something;
as long as I am protecting my people, let them rip. Now all I am saying to you
is, my main concern with.this'pipe cdming down through the City of Miami is the
cost factor, and number two; that our streets are going to be torn up for a period
of two ---
Mayor Ferre: There are three. What about all the smell that comes out from
these breather ---
Mr. Plummer: OK, I didn't even get into that. The third factor is that you
have sat at the Marine Stadium as I have sat at the Marine Stadium some nights
when I think they should have issued gas marks. I am completely appreciative that
North Miami, or whoever the commitment was made to, that they don't want an ugly
on -site plant; theydon't want the odor and they don't want this, but why do we
have to be saddled with it? That's my question.
Mr. Sloan: First of all, whether we like it or not, we are saddled with the
handling of our own sludge, which is.from a flow of sewage currently of sixty-two
million gallons a day, ad in the future it will be a hundred fifteen :million
gallons a day. It's one of the largest, if not the largest, treatment plant in
the State of Florida, and probably a number of other states; and the handling of
an additional increment of sludge --and this is a sixty -million gallon plant
to be built at Interama, which would be roughly fifty per cent. additional load in
proportion to flow, will really not be proportionately significant. In other
words, in principal you are entirely correct, but in actuality whether you have a
large, and --bear, in mind a sludge disposal facility for a hundred and fifteen
million gallons, or for a hundred sixty-five million, or whatever it will be, is
not a great deal of difference from the standpoint of odors and the other amenities
that you have to be concerned with. We are already in the big league of waste
water treatment plants on Virginia Key.
Mr. Plummer: But you know Garrett, this town is still growing, and you know
what we are going to be faced with ten or fifteen years from today the same thing
again. If fifteen your or your predecessor is going to be back here knocking at
the door of my predecessor saying, we need another sixty acresNow, Garrett, it's
wrong. I think the point has now been reached where in fact North Miami, Miami
Beach, have got to stand up under their responsibility. Now Miami Beach, I
realize their real estate is valuable, and Miami Beach doesn't want a sludge
plant on Miami Beach, but we don't want it either, but more importantly, we don't
want theirs.
Reverend Gibson: I know we have to enjoy ours, but I don't know if we have
to enjoy the other fellows. I think it is very simple reasoning. I get really
disturbed. Everybody wants us in Miami to suffer the discomforts, and you know, we
must give over this and we must give over that. Nobody is asking anybody else
to do one dog gone thing about giving up a dog gone thing. My brothers, you ought
to go over to Miami Beach. I don't want the line through there, because, Mr.
Grimm, thank God for you. You have made me aware that it costs two and a half
million dollars more to come through than to go the other way.. Everybody is
talking about economy, I say this: Man two and a half million dollars can feed
an awfully lot of hungry mouths. The second thing is, I don't think Miami Beach
has to have all the goodies and we have all the baddies; you know what I mean. I
think they ought to pick up some of this just like Miami. And you know what?
I am glad you all didn't ask us before now, because I can understand Miami Beach and
North Miami saying, take it down there.TCcan understand that.
Mr. Sloan: I want to make it clear that at these various discussions that
occurred in 1971 the actual, ultimate destination and disposal point was not dis-
cussed. That was left unresolved, so that we can't honestly say that any other
12 DEC 19_1974
community was critical. Now I'd like to comment about piping in the City, odors
and thngs of that sort. At the present time, under the streets of the City of
Miami, because of its central location --and it's the dominant, large, central
city in Dade County; no kidding about it --you have five hundred miles or so of
sewers; you have around a thousand miles of water mains, and you have many other
utilities; gas lines and other utilities. It's each of these utilities respon-
sibility to do a good job; to put the facilities in properly, and to maintain
them and to keepthem running properly. We have some --roughly this whole sixty-two
million gallons a day of sewage is passing under the streets through the City of
Miami in various lines. We are doing everything we know how to see that our
responsibilities are discharged properly; that there is a minimum of inconvenience
to the public and a minimum of nuisance to the public, and we believe that this
other facility will be handled in the same way. I want to address one other
point that_I think will help Mr. Plummer's thinking on this. The decision of
which route to take is purely, as far as I am concerned, an economical decision.
Tis is one project that our authority staff did not engineer and did not make the
preliminary stidies on. This was a consulting engineering assignment. The con-
sulting engineering firm has the responsibility to make alternative studies. Our
function is to figure out how to get the sludge from Interama to Virginia Key,
but the exact route was nothing that was specified or indicated as such and re-
stricted in any instructions. ;The comparative cost made up by the consulting
engineers indicated about a seven hundred thousand dollar difference. Yesterday at
the meeting that we had on the subject Mr. Grimm pointed out certain diffferences
and errors, and things that we need to study futher. That -is why I asked earlier
in the meeting to defer the routing aspect of this, because as far as our authority
is concerned we are thinking functionally. In our role we are not thinking specific
details, because we have the function to resolve primarily.
Reverend Gibson: Let me raise this question. You know, it is so easy for us to
say, all right, we are going to think functionally. I understand your language, and
that's the way I would approach it if I were you. The same way you are saying that
is the same way they accidentally on purpose didn't decide whether they were going
to have on -site treatment or whether they wanted to go to Dinner Key; that we will
resolve all these other things and then, you know, man, this is an emergency and
this is a crisis moment. I want to say to my fellow Commissioners where I stand. I
want the line direction delineated and arrived at before we vote, because I happen
to know that without the right hand the left hand ain't going to move, you understand,
and I. happen to know that if you went back and said to them --and you know these con-
sultants sometimes they do pretty much what you direct them to do, and somebody
ought to go direct them, and say, now look, men, we ain't going to be able to, you
know, unless we go this way.
Mayor Ferre: I'd like Mr. Vince Grimm to step forward with some drawings that
he has, and I want the Commission to see these drawings. The press isn't here, I
guess, at this time, but we will make these available, if you would, please, later
on to members of the press so that they will see what we are going through. Would
you explain what these drawings mean. Mr. Sloan I want you to see them.
Mr. Grimm: This drawing here, Mr. Mayor, indicating, represents the route of
the twn 16-inch sludge lines through the City of Miami. These red dots and mains
that you see here, on these sludge lines within the corporate limits of the City of
Miami, are fifty-seven either drains or release valves, each one of which when it
has to be used, is going to create odor problems in the City of Miami at these
points, and you can see they are near points where people will be congregating. Now
in addition to these, there are five rather large structures tat we facetiously
took J. L.'s cadillac and and parked four of them in the one that is going to be
behind your .bandshell. That's how big that structure is. It's two cars high and
it is two cars wide, and you have room left over; behind the bandshell.
Mr. Plummer: How are they going to get the property there?
Mr. Grimm: It's in the street. It's in 2nd Street. Now the main reason ---
Mayor Ferre: What's in those big boxes?
Mr. Grimm: There are five of those. This is the largest. The others are
smaller than this, but they are still very large.
Mayor Ferre: What's the purpose of those?
13
DEC 191974
Mr. Grimm: Those are clean -out stations.
Mayor Ferret What do you mean? The stuff accumulates and they clean them
out?
Mr. Grimm: If they have to clean the lines; if they have to get in to
clean the lines; reverse the flow, and that happens in ---
Reverend Gibson: Man, I can see why they want us to take it on. Come on,
brother Sloan, you better go back and pray with them now.
Mr. Grimm: The main reason, now, remember in the time circumstances that
we didn't receive these estimates until yesterday morning at nine o'clock. So
in our review of the estimates we found two. major discrepencies. One is that
the blue line that you see is the line that ---
Mr. Andrews: Describe what's above the line.
Mr. Grimm: This is the bay (indicating).; this is the baybottom. This is
the crossing of the twin interceptors from the foot of 2nd:Street over to the
plant on Virginia Key, some thirteen thousand -odd feet. Now in our opinion
the estimate that they R»nplied to the City to come to the 5.3 million was based
on this blue line. In actuality the plans that they intend to build it by are
the red lines. That alone makes a difference in cost of one million, six hundred
and seventy thousand dollars.
Mr. Andrews: More or less?
Mr. Grimm: More; to go the red line, and that's the way the plans are
drawn.
Mrs. Gordon: Why does the straight line cost more than the one that has all
those jogs?
Mr. Grimm: It's deeper. Now the other discrepancy; their contention was that
if you went on Miami Beach that the twin line would have to proceed down Miami
Beach to 13th Street. We checked with Miami Beach, and in fact Miami Beach has in
the hands of consultants right now a re -design of a line that runs to 58th Street;
so by terminating the twin lines there and dumping into the interceptor there was
another saving. So to correct you a little while ago, Father, our revised es-
timate was that it would cost 5.4 million dollars to run down Miami Beach; 7 million
to run in the City. Now, also, if we had to increase the line on the City of
Miami Beach so that the sludge, let's say no one could ever say you are going to
destroy the capacity of that line, that could be done for an additional two
hundred thousand dollars; so the total cost in Miami Beach would still be 5.6
million.
Mr. Plummer: The point, though, that I think we are completely overlooking,
and the point that I have tried to make, Garrett, is it good business to have an
on -site plant? Isn't this the way that most of the new plants are being developed?
Mr. Sloan: You are referring to an on -site sludge disposal plant?
Mr. Plummer: Yes, sir.
Mr. Sloan: Certainly. It's the predominant situation in the Country.
Mr. Plummer: If you did not have constraints of any kind, and you were
putting up a facility in North Miami without anyone to consult, would you put
the sludge on -site plant there, or would you rather put it somewhere else?
Mr. Sloan: If I had no constraints, I'd put the on -site plant there. Another
constraint was Interama. We had to get Interama's permission, and we still have to
get a Interama--
Mr. Plummer: Do you know who gave them the property?
14
Mr. Sloan: Originally yes, but I don't think that they remember that at
the moment.
Mr. Plummer: We are going to remind them.
Mr. Sloan: I think that one of the things that should be considered here is,
first of all, I had asked for time because I didn't know some of the things that
Mr. Grimm brought out yesterday afternoon, and I wanted to dig into them. First
of all, that shallow line across the bay is a line 'that is typical of what I would
have expected in a design. I don't understand the extremely deep line, and I
should comment that the authority and the former City of Miami Department of
Water and Sewers always tries to do it's own engineering as much as possible. On
these big projects the engineering has been being done outside because of the
press of time, and.I haven't had time to look at everybody's drawings. There are
some six or seven hundred feet; and I appreciate the review that has been given by
Mr. Grimm, but I can say that the across the bay and the million six hundred
thousand is ridiculous, and you can't draw a deep profile like that, and we don't
condone that kind of throwing of money away. That's my feeling, and I am going to
have those drawings revised so that would remove that basic difference of cost.
There were other comments that Mr. Grimm made here, such as that there are fifty -
some air relief valves. Do you know how many air relief valves we have on our
sewer force mains in Miami .now?' We -have hundreds .of them, and we rarely have to
use them, and we use them just as infrequently as possible, so that the bedding of
the lines --these are safety features put on by a --in the basic design everytime
there is a little dip in the line there is an area of these valves, and they are
primarily used to fill the line when they are first placed into service; to get the
line really full of liquid; to get all the air pockets out. After that they
are normally not used again in the entire life of the line.
Mr. Plummer: Does this new
Miami, other than taking a load
Mr. Sloan The only way in
people of the Cityof Miami ---
line in any way benefit the people of the City of
off the present facility?
which it could be thought of as benefitting the
Mr. Plummer: Let me re -phrase the whole question. Does it benefit the
people of the City of Miami Beach?
Mr. Sloan: This line, as such, has nothing to do with the people of the
City of Miami Beach. It concerns the north district, and the north district of
the county is roughly an area in general north of 79th Street.
Mr. Grimm: I'd like to point out one other thing here. I realize that most
of our discussion revolves around dollars and cents, but there is another considera-
tion that everyone talks about in line with ecology and preservation of the bay and
that is that there is no question in anybody's mind about the fact that Miami Beach
must cross to Virginia Key to their interceptor to get their sewerage there. So
Miami Beach has no choice but to dig a trench to get to Virginia Key. But we have
twelve or thirteen thousand feet to cross across Miami's bay that if this line is
eliminated we don't have to do.
Mr. Sloan: Every year we are putting water mains and tearing up the streets of
Miami to keep up with the water demand of something in the order of double that foot-
age. Now it's true we are not talking about sixteen -inch lines in each case, but we
have a project under way now at 20th Street. We have had another one at 14th Avenue
and 14th Street. We took bids this afternoon on a mile of pipe on 29th Street, from
7th to 17th Avenues northwest. We don't ear up streets unnecessarly; we tear them
up when we have to, because it costs a lot of people a lot of money, and we give a
lot of thought to it; but the priceof progress in terms of solving these problems is
going to be a lot of installation of facilities
Mr. Plummer: But the project is not going to be for the people of the
City of Miami. Why should they be put to a detriment to serve the people of North
Miami?
15 DEC 191974
Mr. Sloan: I have to fall back on the over-all concept that all communities
in this county have to, at one point or another, yield to help each other, and
whether you like it or not ---
Mayor Ferre: We have done most of the yielding.
Mr. Sloan: Miami is the biggest city and is in the most strategic location.
Reverend Gibson: We are the only ones that everybody is saying, let's abolish.
Mr. Plummer: Garrett, tell Father another factor. This plan on Virgnia Key
would not be overloaded at this time if we didn't help six or seven other communities.
Mr. Sloan: From a flow standpoint you are entirely correct, but I want to
make one big point here tat I think a lot of people aren't aware of. In 1970 the
Jerry Thomas Bill was passed by the State Legislature requiring all ocean disposal of
sewage to go to 90% removal. Later the Public Law 92500 passed in the fall of 1972,
requires a minimum of 85%. The plant on Virginia Key was never designed, and has
never operated above 70%. Sometimes we have. .a good month and we get to 70. Most of
the time it is between 60 and 70, but you have got to make improvements on Virginia
Key at tremendous cost to meet these new standards. A further point is that we are
required by the State to discharge 'our sewage at 90-feet depth o water, past the
third reef, and that requires an extension of the ocean outfall. These are re-
quirements that the City of Miami, if it had its own plant and was operating in
its own manner, would have been faced with as major capital outlays.
Reverend Gibson: I hear what you are saying, but it gets to be illogical to
me at a certain point. OK, let's say we would have to do what you do. What about
the other people?
Mr. Sloan: This is the: law.
Reverend Gibson:I am not arguing that. I am saying that the other people have
the same responsibility to keep that law too.
Mr. Sloan: Let me go one step further. In order to qualify for the 75% grant
money; you have to participate in regional facilities. Cities cannot go it alone
and be eligible for the 75% grant in money. You have to have an over-all plan,
which has been prepared for Dade County, establishing three districts; the north
district is generally speaking all the communities in north Dade County, from
Hialeah on east, including North Miami and North Miami Beach and 0pa Locka, and
of course the Carol City area, and the Myrtle Grove area, and of course the
Sunny Isles area and Golden Beach. The Central District comprises basically the
facilities that all of us have been aware of as serving with Virginia Key facilities,
including MiamiBeach, and the communities on the island of Miami Beach. The South
District is way down in the Cutler Ridge area, and the division point is generally
speaking, Sunset Drive, or SW 72nd Street. These are the three regions. Now all of
the communities and all of the utilities in each of the three regions has to discharge
to the three regional plants; otherwise you don't get your 75% federal money, and
this is also the law and something I have no control over.
Reverend Gibson: I agree with you, buty it seems to me that each district,
and Miami Beach is in that district, has the corresponding responsibility to suffer
some of the discomforts. That's what we are saying. How in the Devil are we in the
City of Miami going to suffer all the discomforts. We have got to examine our --let
me make one further comment. I want this Commission --you know, apparently we don't
learn a lot, because we go through this kind of thing in one way or another. You
know, the fact that we have a staff that could come up and make that kind of an
analysis and show us reasons for not doing what the other people want us to do is
tremendously significant. I remember at the meeting the Mayor and I and Mrs.
Gordon attended I put on the rider that we were not going to listen to any agree—
ment until our staff comes back and satisfies us that it couldn't otherwise be done.
This is one Devil of a revelation.
1 DEC
Reverend Gibson: (Continuing) Thank you sir. (To Mr. Grimm) You
restore my faith in tis staff knowing that we got quality. I don't care what
those other folks say, I think we have got a dog gone good administration.
Mr. Plummer: Garrett, how is the South Region handling their sludge problem?
Mr. Sloan: It is planned to be an on -site facility. Of course, we have
175 acres of land there in a remote agricultural area, which you will have to
admit is a lot different from the Interama location.
Mayor Ferre: Right now you have seventeen hundred acres of land in
Interama.
Mr. Sloan: We had to pay thirty thousand an acre, or two million, four
hundred thousand dollars for the eighty acres, and that was another agreement
that we inherited. That was all worked out.
Mayor Ferre: All right, the facts are all out, and let's see how we can cut
through and solve this problem. Let me express my opinion.
Mr. Andrews: I'd like to bring out another point. Mr. Sloan appreciates that
I need to bring this out. .Theiten million dollars in remaining hnnls that tie must
pay. When this was proposed to you by the former City Manager, and now I proposed
it again to you that something be done about this, it was to be accomplished on
the basis that it would be absorbed by the County without any other conditions, .
because when you start examining the conditions of adjusting the sewer rates to
account for the payment, and you start examining how the fifty million dollars in
County bonds are going to be paid for, in my judgment, applying principles to this,
you find out that the City of Miami is going to be paying double.
Mayor Ferre: How do you figure that?
Mr. Andrews: Well, it takes a little time to explain --and Mr. Garrett Sloan
knows precisely what I am talking about. We have spent a lot of time on this --and
I'll go through the explanation if you wish, but you will have to accept that it is:
The other matter is that I have been assuming all along --and I have talked to Mr.
Sloan about this --the matter that you brought up at the Commission meeting in refer-
ence to the financial statement; that the deficiencies would be made up in the pay-
ments where they paid less than the two hundred and ninety thousand dollars for pre-
vious years. Now there seems to be some contention that the only area they will
make up in the deficiency is the current deficiency, or for the last year, but not
for the back years.
Mayor Ferre: How much is involved in the back years?
Mr. Sloan: That isn't correct at all. Our objective is to pay you two hundred
and ninety thousand for every single year.
Mr. Andrews: Including the current payment, about six hundred thousand dollars.
Mr. Plummer: And it is going to be paid before the deed is signed.
Mr. Sloan: We are very much concerned about this. I have to admit that we
didn't get a large enough increase in water rates, and it was our fault. We asked
for a four and two-thirds per cent. increase on the lower end of the retain rate,
which was approved last August and placed into effect at that time. Our budget, of
course, was made up in February, because our budget begins July 1st every year. We
didn't anticipate that inflation would be as bad as it is in terms of the cost of
chemicals and the cost of oil, and so on, and so our income hasn't been as good
as we had anticipated, but we are in arrears from last year I think it is a hundred
and seventy-nine thousand that we did not pay you of the two ninety that we should
have paid you for the year ending June 30th, 1974. For this current year that
will end June 30th, 1975, there is another two hundred and ninety thousand. Now
what we plan to do --and we got approval of this at our authority meeting --is to do a
rather unorthodox transfer of funds from a sinking fund reserve, where over the
years we have built up a substantial amount of money which isn't required in some
of our financial obligations, and we plan to buy in advance some six hundred
thousand dollars worth of bond maturities that are due this coming June and also in
December of 1975. That is calculated to free us of requirements under the
trust indenture which prevent us from paying money to you, because it will
reduce the working capital minimum requirements. It's a very onorous burden
set up in the trust indenture. It's a safety factor for the bondholders, of
course. But by doing this we feel that by June 30th we will have earned that
will be available to pay some of the arears of last year and all of the obliga-
tion of this year, the sum of three hundred and seventy thousand dollars, and
that's what we are on the road to doing at the present time. I tink a lot of
agencies --and certanly we are not perfect --have had serious problems with the
inflation spiral, and we certainly have had our share, but we feel that we have
a reasonably good solution to this. Also, every year when we make up our budget --
and I am sure all governmental entities are having the same problem --we have to
come up with the necessary water rate increase --and I assure you we keep it as
small as possible. I think the last two that we asked for in the face of the
inflation considerations indicate that we didn't go overboard on it in any way. We
actually failed to require enough. The first year, in 1973, was around 7%, and
in 1974 it was 4 and 2/3%. It probably should have been 5 and 2/3%, and I am
the first to admit that. However, we will be' trying to get back on the track,
and we have no intention of avoiding, evading, or otherwise not honoring the obli-
gation of the two hundred ninety thousand dollars.
•
Mr. Andrews: Can I just add one comment, quickly. What I am referring to, and
Mr. Sloan is not addressing himself to, is 1971-72 when they provided a hundred forty-
four thousand in revenue instead of two ninety; in 1972-73 a hundred forty thousand,
five hundred instead of two hundred ninety thousand; and Mr. Sloan is addressing him-
self to this current year, plus the two hundred ninety.
Mr. Sloan: No, I didn't mean to do that, Paul. I meant to address myself to
the two years of arrearages, which as I understand them, added up to a hundred and
seventy-nine thousand. Our Treasurer, George Scott, is here in te room, and that's
in the auditor's report.
Mayor Ferre: In other words, that would bring it current, completely, going
back '.as many years as whatever we have.
Mr. Sloan: Yes. I don't want any misunderstanding on this issue. In the
past we have had agreements. We had an agreement to pay you the four hundred
thousand on te sewer obligation. We paid you the four hundred thousand.
Mayor Ferre: All right, we understand, and Paul, those are the figures I saw
in that Coopers-Lyber Report. Now, let me ask you a question. One of the things
that evidently;you want to do, you pick up the ten million dollars of the City of
Miami bonds, is then to charg the citizens of Miami the same rate as everybody else.
I want you to tell me now how much, percentage -wise, and how much in dollars that
amounts to.
Mr. Sloan: I don't have the percentages, but in dollars if we charged what the
outside the city rate is to all the people in the City it would be approximately
a million dollars more in a year's time of gross revenue.
Mayor Ferre: The bonded indebtedness of ten million dollars; how long does it
have to go?
Mr. Andrews: 1990.
Mayor Ferre: That means sixteen yeas. Now, what percentage is it?.
Mr. Sloan: The principal is ---
Mr. Andrews Five hundred ninety thousand dollars per year.
Mayor Ferre: And what's the interest charge?
Mr. Andrews: At this time it is a hundred and thirty thousand dollars, and
of course it reduces down.
Mayor Ferre: All right, so in other words --and I am a businessman so I know
more or less how some of these things work. What you are saying is you are going
18 . DEC 191974
to pick paying seven hundred and twenty-four thousand dollars, roughly, going
down, and then you are going to charge a million dollars to the people of Miami
more.
Mr. Sloan: No.
Mr. Andrews: Eight hundred and fifty thousand dollars.
Mr. Sloan: Yes; eight hundred and fifty is the total required to be paid to
carry the bonds.
Mayor Ferre: But of course it reduces over the life of the bonds, sixteen
years, and eventually gets down to five hundred and eight thousand dollars.
Mr. Sloan: About two or three years ago this came up, and at that time it
took about a million dollars a year to carry the bonds because there was a larger
amount outstanding, and at that time it was approximately the same amount, so when
we made a study of it then --and frankly we didn't make the study until just to last
week or so; getting the figures from Mr. Bailey on the bonds. Previously we didn't
have the maturities and interest rates and we now have them --we came to the conclu-
sion that since at that time it was a million dollars either way it was an even swap.
Mayor Ferre: Give or take a hundred fifty thousand.
Mr. Sloan: Yes. Now at this time what we would like to do is to increase the
rates so that we get the approximate amount of the carrying charges, of the fixed
charges on the bonds, which will still leave the rates inside the City a little bit
less than the rates outside the City, if that is satisfactory to you.
Mayor Ferre: In other words, ---
Mr. Andrews: There is another matter here to be carried further, as long as
we are going into the explanation, and it is this: that the fifty million dollars
in debt service on the Decade of Progress Bod Issue for the sanitary sewers, what
is planned is that that debt service will be carried by the County and the City of
Miami and everyone else until such time as plant facilities are built, and then
there will be charges against those plant facilities and there will be a rate in-
crease and that rate increase will provide money to the general fund of the County
to pay the debt service. Now that rate increase is going to be imposed upon the
City of Miami unless they do something about separating them.
Mayor Ferre: Now, gentlemen, what Mr. Andrews is now talking about is more
important than anything else that has been discussed up to this moment, and I want
to address myself to it in a moment.
Mr. Andrews: Now, Garrett, please tell me if I have got this wrong and
straighten me out, but that's as I understand it.
Mr. Sloan: Somehow it doesn't sound the same way as I look at it.
Mayor Ferre: Let me re -phrase --this is the most important single thing
that is before us, and I really have been reluctant to bring it up, and I didn't
want to bring it up the other day, but let's bring it out. Mr. Andrews, listen to
this: This problem is a typical problem that besets core cities throughout the
United States, and what it is is you pay twice, that's the name of the game, because
you pay for it as you go, and then all the wealthier, mostly white folk, move out
of the city and the burden is left to the poorer people who remain in the core area
and the property owners, buildings and commercial, and what have you, which is not
sufficient to really carry on the function of government. Then the outlying dis-
tricts build up and then eventually they are brought back into the system and
consolidated, but since they don't have the services that the core city has been
building up over fifty years they need, under federal mandate, to build up these
services, and then the core city pays for it again.
Mr. Sloan: But we have corrected that.
Mayor Ferre: I am going to let you answer in a minute.. Let me finish what
the process is, because this is the key. Now, let's talk nitty gritty specifics
to the City of Miami. The people of Miami have paid for, I don't know whether it
is a hundred or two hundred million dollars in cash dollars, whether it is gener-
ated out of profits from good management, or from what have you, but the consumers,
whether they are taxpayers or not, paid for a system that has cost them, the
consumers, two hundred million dollars; I don't know whether it is a hundred and
sixty or a hundred and eighty, or what have you. Now, in your own words you told me
that the replacement value of that is about five hundred million dollars. If you
were to say to Metro, OK, fellow, you go and you replace everything we have built
over the last thirty years, it will cost them five hundred million dollars. Now
follow me; the City of Miami now takes this asset which three hundred and some -odd
thousand people have paid for over the years. We turn it over without getting
anything basically for it, to the larger government, which is Metro. Now the
larger government, under federal mandate, says tha if we are going to sewer we
need one on the north and one on the south. Now how much is that going to cost?
Mr. Sloan: The total program is about three hundred million dollars.
Mayor Ferre: How much of that is the federal government going to give us?
Mr. Sloan: They are supposed to give us three-quarters of it, or two,
twnety-five.
Mayor Ferre: And we have to pay how much? We in the local community.
Mr. Sloan: We have to pay seventy-five million.
Mayor Ferre: Now, follow me. That seventy-five million dollars is going to
be paid for by bonds of some type; revenue bonds or full faith bonds, or what have
you. Now one -quarter of Dade County lives in Miami, approximately. One quarter of
that is approximately twenty million dollars. What in effect you are saying is,
Miami, even though you have facilities that you paid for and built over the last
thirty years, you are now going to be asked to pay for another twenty million
dollars for facilities that you really don't need. You really don't need them.
Yes I know, they are improvements and all that, but we could survive without it.
Maybe North Miami and Hialeah and South Dade County can't survive without it, but
we, the City of Miami can. So what you are in effect telling us is, now for you
to join the club, it doesn't matter that you have paid a hundred ad eighty million
dollars, and you have been paying for years and doing what nobody else has been
doing, that you have carried the burden of it, and it doesn't matter that you gave
this whole system to us or, we are going to hit you for another twenty million
dollars, even though it doesn't benefit you. That in my language is very simply
called inequity.
Mr. Sloan: In order to try to correct that inequity our authority employed
a consulting engineering firm and had a stud made of what we should charge all
new customers, whether they are inside the city or outside the city, to protect
what the previous customers have paid for, and we came up with a recommendation
which we placed in effect. It was necessary for the County Commssion to adopt
that, because they have to approve those things that we carry into effect, and
we are now charging for sewer service for all new customers thirty-six cents per
gallon per day. In other words, if a typical apartment is a two hundred gallon
rating, then you multiply two hundred by thirty-six cents. That's seventy-two
dollars. But the point is we are collecting from all new connections inside and
outside and everywhere to defray the local share of the facilities that need to
be built.
Mayor Ferre: How much for -somebody in Miami who has been connected for
twenty years?
Mr. Sloan: It's only for new --if somebody moves out of a property and
takes over , another party takes over, there is no charge. It's only for
brand new load that comes on the system. We call it a connection charge. We
collect it as a lump sum at the time of tying in. Thirty-six cents per gallon
per day. We have a table. Say you have a certain type of apartment---
2U
Mayor Ferre: If I have, say, an apartment of two hundred units, an that
will produce ---
Mr. Sloan: Yes, two hundred, I'd say might be forty thousand gallons, and
then forty thousand times thirty-six cents would be the connection charge. It
would be around twelve or thirteen thousand dollars.
Mayor Ferre: Is that a lump sum payment?
Mr. Sloan: Yes.
Mayor Ferre: And then they don't pay again.
Mr. Sloan: No.
Mayor Ferret And that goes to the general revenue?
Mr. Sloan: That goes into our capital accounts, and our capital accounts
are for the purpose of meeting the obligations for these facilities. We also do
that with water now.
Mayor Ferre: How much will that. give you every year. roughly, say this year?
Mr. Sloan: I don't know.
Mayor Ferre: Is it a hundred thousand dollars?
Mr. Sloan: Oh, it would be several hundred thousand dollars.
Mayor Ferre: Is it a million dollars?
Mr. Sloan: It might be.
Mayor Ferre: Could it be over a million dollars?
Mr. Sloan: If we had a big project --some of these big projects in the out-
skirts run X hundred thousand dollars apiece.
Mr. Andrews: The police station building is seventeen thousand dollars.
Mayor Ferre: So that includes the City of Miami, too.
Mr. Sloan: That's right; all new customers to protect the old customers from
being charged.
Mayor Ferre: Now, let's get back to the point --what you are telling me is
that you are taking into consideration and there is some equity.
Mr. Sloan: We have tried to do it. I am sure it is not perfect, but we try.
Mayor Ferre: Now, we have got to get back to the main problem, which is
that line coming down Biscayne Boulevard with all those manholes open.
Mr. Sloan: It's NE 2nd Avenue; it isn't Biscayne Boulevard.
Mayor Ferre: Explain it to me, Garrett; these .big things where you have
four cars and all, is that going to be sticking up over here, or is that underground,
or what?
Mr. Sloan: That's entirely underground in the public right of way.
Mayor Ferre: And how about these air vents? Does that mean --because you
know we put a lot of sewer lines under Miami but those are sewer lines that
don't have air vents that are ventilated, but this is a sludge line.
21. DEC 191974
Mr. Sloan: I assure you that the sewage running through the system is as
smelley
Mr. Plummer: The point is that the water rates can be reduced by two
million dollars if they take it down the beach.
Mayor Ferre: I'll get to that point in a second, but this question of the
sewers, the sludge lines versus sewage lines.
Mr. Sloan: The sludge is deliberately kept thin so that we don't have any
clogging with it. That's why we need three million gallons of flow to carry it.
Mayor Ferre: What you are going to do is you process it, you put a preliminary
processing to it, and then do you put water into it?
Mr. Sloan: No, when you draw the sludge from the settling tanks you have the
option of whether you want to draw it thick or thin, and you deliberately draw it
thin by setting your pumps that way. It would be a fairly dense brown fluid, but
it would flow just like water.
Mayor Ferre: Does it smell like raw sewage?
Mr. Sloan: The sludge will certainly swell like raw sewage, yes. The three
million gallons of flow is carrying the solids removed from, in the future, sixty
million gallons of sewage, so obviously it has got a lot more solids in it.
Mayor Ferre: Will smell any worse than the sewage lines that we have
going through the City now?
Mr. Sloan: No, it' all basically the same thing.
Mayor Ferre: I had to be the one, but let me tell you, gentlemen --I know, it's
our turn to pay again and we are going to get stuck again, but I think we ought to
take a strong stand to try to get it to go through Miami Beach, and I agree with
that, but if it can't be done and it jeopardizes forty million dollars in federal
funds to get on with this project, which in turn might jeopardize three hundred
million dollars in the future for this community to be a first-class sewered com-
munity, let me tell you, I was just given by a member of the Miami Herald an article
here called the worst American City. It came out evidently in a recent Harpers
issue, and he asked me to comment, and I have been glancing through it, and they
use an average of a whole series of factors; there are 24 statistical comparisons.
Miami, out of fifty cities, rates thirty-fifth. This is Harpers Magazine, January
'75, Arthur M.Lewis, is an associate of Fortune Magazine, and it is a statistical
comparison comparing crime, housing availability, sewage, per capita income, social
services, education, and what have you, including I am sure, sewage, and to
City of Miami, out of fifty major American cities, is rated thirty-five. I don't
know what the reasons ---I am going to have to read it in more detail --but we are
a new city, and we are basically a poor city, and most of these cities in the
bottom fifteen, including Miami, are southern cities. We have a lower economic
base. There is not much commerce or industry here, but you know, somebody has got
to pay the price, and we have a tradition in Miami of getting caught, and I don't
care what the Miami Herald or anybody else thinks. It is a question between us and
our conscience. I don't want that line going --I have got news for you; I and my
family own property that is going to be affected by this darn thing, and 'don't
like the idea that downtown might end up smelling bad or that we are going to have
a big pumping station right on 2nd Avenue, but I would hate to even consider re-
motely that we would be responsible for the losing of this forty million dollars.
Now it may be an idle threat---.
Mr. Plummer: We are not the ones responsible. We are willing to give the
property; we are willing to accept the payments; we are willing to accept everything.
Mayor Ferre: I'll go with a majority of this Commission. If you feel that we
ought to just put it to a, you go through Miami Beach or else, then I'll vote with
you.
Reverend Gibson: I think that the Miami Herald ought to also print, why
should Miami always be the goat. I heard --I listened to Alan Courtney last
night and dog gone it if Alan wasn't the best spokesman that the City of Miami
has had for a long time, fighting the architect of big papa government. It would
be nice if we could get that tape and have them play it back. Alan Courtney
ought to be invited here and just like we give all those other folk a plaque and
laud them, we ought to bring Alan up here at the next meeting.
Mr. Plummer: Garrett, you said before that if.we didn't give you the property
you would throw up your arms and run for the hills. What happens. if we give you
the property and we accept the payment; accept the method of financing that you
have proffered for paying your back debts; we accept your method of paying off the
bond issue, but we say to you, it has got to be Miami Beach? What happens?
Mr. Sloan: First of all, I had asked that the matter of sludge line location
be deferred at the beginning of this meeting, because I wanted to look into it some
more, and I feel that if there is a location within reasonable cost levels, an
alternative location, that the EPA will not consider that that is one of the key
factors in the whole concept, because after all we are talking about a function of
getting sludge moved from one place to the other, and it is incidental as to
whether it goes down NE 2nd Avenue or it goes down some other location. It has to
go somewhere, but the puint is'iL is incidental to the people in the higher level
of government, as it were.
Mr. Plummer: Wouldn't they look on it favorably if it cost less?
Mr. Sloan: Of course not. The basis of the NE 2nd Avenue selection was a
comparison made by the consultants a year or a year and a half ago, and we requested
this information, and we received a document with comparative columns of cost, and
so on. Yesterday Mr. Grimm pointed out a number of, what I feel, are engineering
inconsistencies and errors in the cost, and I wanted to defer consideration of that
particular aspect, if we could defer it, and that is of course your decision, and
discuss the routing of the pipes further some time in January. Now, the issuing of
contracts that we have allocations of money for on the north district has one,
roughly one-third of all the projects; it's less than a third, about twenty per cent.
of all the projects, are not being funded right at this time, and one of the
projects we deliberately kept out was the sludge lines. Funding -wise that's part
of the north district treatment plant projects.
Mayor Ferre: Let me cut through all this and see if we can't come to a conclu-
sion on it. Commissioner Reboso just gave me a quote, which I really think he has
got an ability to synthesize and hit the nail on the head with a few words. You
know, Robert Louis Stevenson said it. You cannot run away from a weakness. You
must sometime fight it out or perish, and if that be so, why not now and where we
stand? That's where we are really at, and I think basically that I, as one voice
out of five on this Commission, am willing to do is that: I am willing to make an
agreement to give you the sixty acres provided however that it be contingent noon
that line not going through the City of Miami. and that would have to be a con- .
tingency to it; and based upon the other cosiderations that we discussed; that we
be brought whole on the two hundred ninety thousand that is missing, which is a
hundred and seventy-nine thousand; on the ten million dollars that we owe in bonds,
frankly it doesn't make any difference one way or the other because either we pay
for it or the citizens pay for it and we are the citizens, so as far as I am
concerned do it any way you want. What's the other thing that we had pending? Oh,
the land; that we get the land from the County at an acceptable location to us.
Mr. Andrews: One block, consisting of at least one hundred eighty thousand
square feet.
Mayor Ferre: Will that be enough?
Mr. Andrews: That sounds like enough. The consultants to the County estimated
that there would be eighty thousand square feet per site. That's not enough. Our
city blocks have a hundred and eighty thousand square feet, and it should be at
least that size.
23
DEC 191974
Mayor Ferret Well they would give us a hundred and eighty thousand square feet
somewhere in the central business district acceptable to us.
Mr. Plummer:
Mr. Andrews:
In the government center.
Government center or somewhere else.
Mr. Plummer: I don't want to be a
got to be a time limit, or in ten years
to buy it; and I think it is reasonable
complete stumbling block, but there has
we are still going to be waiting for them
to put a one year maximum acquisition.
Mr. Andrews: In fact if you, the Commission, are as anxious as I am, when
we get through settling some of these things we are going to start looking at that
and I hope you will be making som decisions at an early date.
Mayor Ferre: OK, then I am willing to go on that. And after that it is your
battle.
Mr. Sloan: Unfortunately, I can't comment on the hundred and eighty thousand
square feet from the County's aspect. I presume Mr. Andrews or others on the staff
have communications on this issue.
Sohn Lluyd, City Accorney: Ti►ere is one Cuing Thai I should bring to the
attention of the City Commission. With respect to the land, the County resolu-
tion had that the County would retain ownership of the property with the City
retaining ownership of the building and all income go to the City. Now that was
put in this resolution, but ---
Mayor Ferre: It doesn't make any difference who owns it.
Mr. Plummer: Is there a specified time on it?
Mayor Ferre: What's the difference?
Mr. Plummer; There is a big difference. After ten years it reverts to
them?
Mayor Ferre:
Mrs. Gordon:
Mr. Plummer:
They own the land. We own the building forever.
But the building won't last forever.
What about if they start charging us rent?
Mayor Ferre: They can't charge us rent, and that has to be part of the
resolution; that we get the land free and clear without any encumbrances and
without any liabilities against it, or future liabilities. I don't care who
owns the land as long as we don't have to pay for it, or we won't be charged.
in the future for it.
Mr. Plummer: Why not own it. You know what they are looking at. The City
is going to fold and they are going to get it. If the City folds and they are
going to get it, deed it to us and they will get the deed when we turn it over.
Mayor Ferre: J. L., look, I really think it is splitting hairs. The point
is this: We don't own the land under the McAllister, and I could care less, be-
cause we have an eighty -year lease. If we get the lease for no cost at all in
perpetuity, who cares who owns the land?
Mrs. Gordon: Yes, but then you have a problem on financing it, don't you?
Mayor Ferre: No, because the land could never be used for mortgage purposes
anyway.
Mrs. Gordon: Does it prevent bonding it?
2.
DEC 191974
Mayor Ferre: It doesn't prevent bonding it because that land can never be
liened anyway; it's government property. It remains in perpetuity as a govern-
ment --you can't use that for financing.
Mrs. Gordon: Suppose at some future time you want to expand on the size of
the facility and you had to go for another bond issue to expand, would there be any
problem?
Mr. Lloyd: I see no problem, because you would probably issue revenue bonds
and the payment s based upon the income from the facility, or if you issue full
faith and credit bonds, that's the tax base of the City.
Mayor Ferre: You would either have revenue bonds based on income, or you
would have a bond issue based on some other source. For example, a utility tax.
Or three; you would have full faith and credit of the government agency issuing the
bonds, and in neither of those two or three 'cases would you ever be tied to an en-
cumbrance against the property. It doesn't matter who the title holder is as long
as we have the property. They can have the title if we have the use of it.
Mrs. Gordon: If they have the title, would they also have the air rights over
it? If they wanted to put a building over it, could they?
Mr. Lloyd: No.
Mayor Ferre: Sure they could,,, and what's the difference? If we are up a
hundred and fifty or two hundred feet, which is what this building is going to be
minimum, God bless them if they want to put something on top of that.
Mrs. Gordon: It's a new concept that people are thinking about.
Mr. Lloyd: Here again that could be spelled out in our agreement; that the
City of Miami has the air rights. I don't think we have any problem there.
Mayor Ferre: So that they could never use it in conflict with us.
Mr. -Lloyd: Right.
Mayor Ferre: All right, J. L. makes the motion. The motion is:
Mr. Plummer: This is your motion.
Mayor Ferre: All right, I make a motion that the City of Miami do the
following: , One, deed over sixty acres of property, properly defined, continuous
and contiguous to the existing facility at Virginia Key. Two; that the deeding
of the property be contingent, and that the title so reflect, that it will be
really contingent upon a firm and binding commitment that the sewage plant 16-inch
so-called sludge lines not come through the City of Miami boundaries. Three; that
within six months Metropolitan Dade County turn over to the City of Miami 5.3
million dollars, or three months ---
Mr. Andrews: At the signing of the deed.
Mayor Ferre: At the signing of the instrument that Metropolitan Dade County
give to the City of Miami 5.3 million dollars as a lump sum cash for the property.
Four; that the City of Miami commits to use that 5.3 million dollars for the pur-
pose of building an auditorium -arena complex, whatever it is called, in the
downtown area. Five; that Metropolitan Dade County commit itself to give the City
of Miami for the purpose of building this complex a hundred and eighty thousand
square feet in the downtown area, preferably in thegovernment center, but in an
area acceptable to the City of:kliami, and whose specifications would be within a
reasonable walking distance from either the government center or a major center of
the downtown core area ---
Mr. Andrews: For the construction of a City of Miami ---
Mayor Ferre: For the construction of a City of Miami facility; that the
land, even though Metropolitan Dade County will own title to it, will not have
any encumbrances from them now or in the future --in other words, that they cannot
charge us any rental or any taxes in any way in the future--; that the air rights
of the property belong to the City; that they cannot in the future use it for any
purpose that would be contrary to the purposes used by the City without our authoriza-
tion. That this be done; that this land be made available by the end of calendar
MOTION NO. 74-1392
MOTION THAT THE CITY OF MIAMI DEED OVER 60 ACRES OF
PROPERTx PROPERLY DEFINED, CONTIGUOUS TO THE EXISTING
FACILITIES AT VIRGINIA KEY, CONTINGENT. UPON, AND THE
TITLE SO REFLECTING, UPON A BINDING COMMITMENT THAT
THE SEWAGE PLANT 16-INCH SO-CALLED SLUDGE LINES NOT
COME THROUGH THE CITY OF MIAMI THAT AT THE SIGNING
OF THE INSTRUMENT THAT DADE COUNTY GIVE 5.3 MILLION
DOLLARS AS A LUMP SUM CASH PRICE FOR THE PROPERTY;
THAT THE CITY OF MIAMI COMMITS TO USE THAT 5.3 MILLION
DOLLARS FOR THE PURPOSE OF BUILDING AN AUDITORIUM -
ARENA COMPLEX IN THE DOWNTOWN AREA; THAT DADE COUNTY
COMMIT ITSELF TO GIVE TO THE CITY OF MIAMI FOR THE
PURPOSES OF BUILDING THIS COMPLEX 180,000 SQUARE FEET
IN THE DOWNTOWN AREA, PREFERABLY IN THE GOVERNMENT
CENTER, BUT IN AN AREA ACCEPTABLE TO THE CITY OF MIAMI,
AND %MOSE SPECIFICATIONS WOULD BE -WITHIN A REASONABLE
WALKING DISTRANCE FROM EITHER THE GOVERNMENT CENTER OR
A MAJOR CENTER OF THE DOWNTOWN CORE AREA, FOR THE CON-
STRUCTION OF A CITY OF MIAMI FACILITY; THAT THE LAND,
EVEN TIDUGH DADE COUNTY WILL HAVE TITLE TO IT, WILL
NOT HAVE ANY ENCUMBRANCES, EITHER NOW OR IN THE FUTURE;
NO TAXES; THAT THE AIR RIGHTS BELONG TO THE CITY; THAT
THEY CANNOT USE IT IN THE FUTURE FOR ANY PURPOSES CON-
TRARY TO THE PURPOSES OF THE CITY WITHOUT THE CITY'S
AUTHORIZATION; THAT THE LAND BE MADE AVAILABLE BY THE
END OF CALENDAR 1975; THAT WITHIN THREE MONTHS AFTER
THE CLOSING, MIAMI-DADE WATER AND SEWER AUTHORITY WILL
COME CONCURRENT IN WHATEVER DEBTS THE AUDITORS SAY ARE
OWED THE CITY OF MIAMI AT THAT TIME, AND THAT IN THE
FUTURE THEY WILL KEEP CURRENT WITH THE PAYMENTS TO THE
CITY OF MIAMI; AND THAT THE TRI-PARTITE AGREEMENT BE
FINALIZED UPON THE SIGNING OF THE (TRANSFER) CONTRACT,
AND T!4T THE PAYMENTS OF THAT AGREEMENT WILL BEGIN TD
RUN ON THE DAY OF THE SIGNING
PASSED AND ADOPTED by the City Commission of Miami,
Florida, this 19th day of December, 1974.
H. D. SOUTHERN
CITY CLERK
25-A
1975. You want to cover anything else? i'ou don't need to cover/that ten million
dollar bonds; who cares. One way or the other we are going to pay for it.
Mr. Andrews: You want to put anything in there about the stipulation about
the payment of ---
Mayor Ferret That they will on closing, or within three months after the
closing at the latest, that the Miami -Dade Water and Sewer Authority will come
current with whatever debts your auditors say are owned to the City of Miami
at this time, and that in the future you will keep current with the payments as
they become due.
Mr. Andrews: There is one important area, Mr. Mayor. When do you want this
agreement that we reach become effective as far as the total agreement that is now
unsigned ---
Mayor Ferre: Oh, and that the tri-party agreement be finalized concurrent with
the signing of the property.
Mr. Andrews: And that the payments in that agreement then begin to run from
the date it is executed.
Mayor Ferre: And that%the payments of that agreement will begin to run on the
day of the signing.
Reverend Gibson: Mr. Andrews, when you say the tri-party agreement becomes
current? is that the word? I don't understand that term. I want them to sign it.
As a layman I don't understand what you mean, current. They had that agreement float-
ing around here all this time and never signed it. I don't want no current, nothing.
I want the words signed, sealed and delivered.
Mr. Andrews: By current I meant, Father, that this agreement that is before them
has to be altered to provide for these conditions. When they are and everyone signs
it, then that becomes the effective date.
Reverend Gibson: So that everybody can understand me, I don't want any pussy-
footing around with this agreement. I was at the meeting, the Mayor, Mrs. Gordon
and myself, and after a considerable length of time had elapsed the agreement still
wasn't signed. I don't think we ought to sign away the land or anything else until
the agreement is reached. These fellows have got to understand that we mean business.
Thereupon the foregoing motion, introduced by Mayor Ferre and seconded by Mr.
Plummer, was adopted unanimously and designated Motion No. 74-1392.
3. BICENTENNIAL PARK - ELIMINATING PROPOSED VELLODROME:
Upon the recommendation of the City Manager the following motion was intro-
duced by Mrs. Gordon, who moved its adoption:
MOTION NO. 74-1393
A MOTION EXPRESSING THE INTENT OF THE COMMISSION
THAT, IN CONCURRENCE WITH REVI ED RECOMMENDATIONS
OF EDWARD D. STONE, JR. AND ASSOCIATES, THE PROPOSED
VELLODROME IN BICENTENNIAL PARK BE LOCATED AT SOME
OTHER SITE IN THE CITY OF MIAMI
Upon being secon ded by Mr. Plummer the motion was adopted unanimously.
Prior to the adoption of the motion the following discussion occurred:
P. W. Andrews, City Manager: I have a letter here from Mr. Stone on the
Bicentennial Park, and Mr. Armbruster is here representing Mr. Stone, and he wants
to explain to you the new position that they are taking with reference to the
vellodrome. In essence, to make this short, they want to withdraw from that
position. This thing has gotten so complicated with Olympic type vellodrome, and
they have got some cross sections to demonstrate what would take place if an Olympic---
26
DEC 191974
Mrs. Gordon: But where is the vellodrome going to go, Mr. Andrews?
Mayor Ferre: Coconut Grove.
Mrs. Gordon: No, it's not; it's going to go somewhere else. They got a
new location, so I heard. You want to tell them?
Mr. Andrews: No, I don't know. I am not aware of the new location.
Mrs. Gordon: I am only moving this because I was told that there was an
alternate location for it, and if you don't know about it how come I know about
it?
Mr. Andrews: •I don't know.
Mr. Plummer: Fill us in.
Mrs. Gordon: I heard there was an alternate location satisfactory to the
organizaton that runs the bicycle operation,.and tat this location is on
Virginia Key, and. since I heard that I am satisfied that they have a location
and that's the reason --I am delighted that it is not going in the park, because
I iidn_'t want it there. I want 'elerybody here to know that they have a location.
4. RETIREMENT SYSTEM - PROPOSED AMENDMENTS:
P. W. Andrews, City Manager: There are three pension system ordinances that
you need to adopt.
Mayor Ferre: Those are the things that J. L. wanted to have time to read.
Mr. Plummer: The only thing that I wanted included in that is that those
people not covered by union agreements are grandfathered in to their own election
of options.
Mr. Andrews: Wait a minute. Not election of options. What they have is
they will be moved over from the system to the plan and then they can exercise
all the options they want in the plan, the same as they had before.
Mr. Plummer: No, no. If someone is in the system, which is police, and they
wish to stay in that, they would be grandfathered.
Mr. Andrews: If they are identified under the ordinance as an officer or
similar, where they get that benefit, but there are people in the system who don't
get the police officer benefit.
Mr. Plummer: I am only concerned that those people who have been paying in
are not suddenly overnight going to get sacked; that they are grandfathered and
covered.
Mr. Andrews: Yes.
Reverend Gibson: Let me ask a question. The man who supervises your street
business (to Mr. Vince Grimm, Director of Public Works) I know him, but I don't
remember his name. I understand that you buy in,. and he was being denied, or
had been denied. I want to know why is it that man isn't accorded that privilege
and opportunity. He has been with the City a goodly number of years. You know
who I am talking about, Mr. Grimm?
Mr. Grimm: Apparently not. I don't know of anybody in Public Works who is
in that circumstance, Father.
Mr. Andrews: I know who he is talking about.
Reverend Gibson: I am going to get that man's name and I am going to come
back here, because I feel that every man who works for this city ought to be given
an opportunity to be protected against old age, man.
27 DEC 191974
•
Mr. Andrews: There were some laborers, Father, who were not included, who
had an option at one point and did not exercise their option. At first they
were excluded. Then they had an option. They did not exercise the option at that
time. Many more years have gone by. They apparently realize the benefits that
are associated, and they want to buy back into the system now.
Reverend Gibson: What's wrong with letting them buy back? They denied him.
I saw the letter. They denied him the right to buy back. O.K., Mr. Andrews,
when you come back here at the next meeting I want an answer for the man, because
I take this position: It is hard as so and so to work for the City, and they
ought to get some little satisfaction, and it shouldn't cost us a fortune.
Mr. Andrews: I'll put this back on the agenda for the next meeting, and I'll
have the answers that you want.
John Lloyd, City Attorney: Before we go.let me explain one thing. We did have
one ordinance that Mr. Bailey wanted passed, because the actuaries are claiming that
they have to have it, and he says that it should be done so that they can begin the
new actuarial procedures by January One. Now if you want this amendment that it is
going to be grandfathered, I am going to have to tell Mr. Bailey that we can't pass
it until we can remodel it to have that in and pass it on the January 9th meeting.
ADJOURNMENT:
There being no further business to come before the Commission at
this time, on motion duly made and seconded, the meeting was adjourned
at 7:25 o'clock P.M.
MAURICE A. FERRE
MAY 0 R
ATTEST: H. D. SOUTHERN
CITY CLERK