Loading...
HomeMy WebLinkAboutCC 1975-10-03 MinutesCITY OF IAMI COMMISSION MINUTES OP NESTING; HELD ON October 3. 1975 • PREPARED SY THE OFFICE OP THE CITY CLERK CITY MALL. si ,_ �. i . OFT f' NI I`..i +",t1.'i T..?1LPA !E`i OF J'J>tICE: AN; dNitr o STAtE S 1?EA,=,'JrY jEPARtrrENT oFriciAL7, r;F City ,- ON 'C F(16E 0 1, 2 'Y S) 1.J/:) _.. " 1,... a.. PRE.c;E:.rit REPRESENTING .J:rT1C i)EPARTE N T : t'EPRESENTtNC? fRE_A`;OlY DEPARTMENT: REPRESENTING THE CITY )F MIAMI: IN ADDITION, REPRESENTATIVES OF SEVERAL EMPLOYEE GROUPS WERE IN ATTENDANCE, IN SESSiq: 12:40 ". ('�;U1E PADGETT ,I NDA JAr-1I ESON rA4 I E & AV I S S, LL YI) „NDREW P , LROUCH 0PGAN1ZATTONS AND Ms. Anne Nicol: In my capacity as the Affirmative Action Coordinator for City of Miami I say that I reVresent all employees and in that capacity as I've been asked to read this Statement il7t', the record. I've been asked to make a statement on behalf of persons who are extremely upset and offended by son* �, proposed I must point out that of the ��tn �,�.►�e in the ,met, rsed consent decree. one can discriminate ant; at the same time be discriminated against. Yesterday Mr. Frank Williams, President of general. Employees Association made the statement that the word Anglo means having roots or ancestry in England. Mr. Williams also attempt- ed to point nut that this traditional meaning has been superseded by a slang con- notation. The term "White Anglo", is redundant, inflammatory and defamatory. The use of the term "White Anglo" has the same effect as the use of such derogatory terms as latin(spic), black (nigger). italian (wop) Jewish (kike),etc. 1 have been asked to suggest that for the same reason that we do not use such derogatory trigger words such as spic, nigger, wop, '.:it:getc. We shemL1 avoid the use of the word Anglo. Discrimination is discrimination, no matter what the source and no matter at whom it is directed. Mr. Lloyd: Thank you Ms. Nicol, this was on behalf of a group of Employees Association. Ms. Anne Nicol: A - individual employee spoke to me yesterday and 1 have received telephone calls most of the morning asking me to speak on behalf of employees, who for reasons of their own did not wish to make such a statement in public and as the Affirmative Action Coordinator I felt it was my duty to read this into the record on behalf of those employees. Mr. Lloyd: Mr. `:.:Cr.:ry, I believe you expressed your desire next to make a brief st at.t•r:cvt . nr. oessie `lc Crary: ; hay.: some concern after some thought last evening that what we are doinr t,t•rt is the City Administration is negotatton on behalf of the city. I believe that any consent decree that's entered into by the parties is subjected to the approval of the City Commission. Now those who.have not dealt with the city won't understand what I'm saytng.The administration has; a very weird %mu of getting back to the City Commission that which did not occur therefore L a* requesting Mr. Lloyd with you chairing this meeting. that we inform before we let Justice leave here that we assemble the City Commission let the* know exactly the 1auguage that we are talking about and the things we disagree on because ss has happened in these negotations already, the city has operated in bad taste. They have broken their word on a number of occasions. More specifically to supply certain documents and if you will look at the consent decree the proposed one it bears the date of 9-17-75. All parities were promised prior to this that they would be furnished all of the information that was going to Justice or anything negotiated and they were not. So I h.;ve no faith in the city. I have operated the suit to Cohen vs. City of Mta+ai In good faith in every instance even to the point of waiving certain rights that 1 had under that order and the city has broken its word on every instance. Mr. Lloyd: Mr. McCrary, you are saving exactly the thing as you said in the beginning. Mr. McCrary: Well i want to reiterate it Mr. Lloyd because nobody has take* any action on :t. Not you. not the City Manager's Office, not a sou/. Even to the point that n mete was notified of the meeting that was scheduled yesterday and one day before. Now, 1 think it's incuobvpt upon this body that we assemble the City Cctmsisaten so they can sit here, can hoer and will know exactly what's ping on because what they eventually are going to do is get the board from some third rate ,,put 1 ocy 3. pefrson in the department saving that this represents the View of the people of Miami and it certainly does not. If you wish for me to I'll call the Mayor. Mr. Lloyd: that Mr. Mccrary is your prerogative. I have no authority to assemble the City Commission, only the Mayor has that authority. I have been instructed to proceed and am going to proceed. Mr. Mc Crary: Mt. Lloyd, 1 understand you are going to proceed, but we are going to let the Justice Department leave here today with you saying to them, here 's what the City of Miami wants to do and you would have not had the approval of the City Commission at any time prior to their leave and that consent decree is subjected --- Mr. Lloyd: No. that's not correct. That's not correct. Mt. Mc Crary: I stand to be corrected. Mt. Lloyd: the only thing I intend to do which I repeated from the beginning is to submit a report to the City Commission informing the City Commission as to what 1. feel can be recommended. Mr. Mc Crary: That is from a legal aspect. 'that's what you are talking about right? Mr. Lloyd: Generally, yes. Mr. Mc Crary: But we are talking about substanced matters Mr, Lloyd. Mr. Lloyd: Now then if you will permit me without interruption to proceed. I will proceed. Now then, on areas where there is disagreement I am prepared to do one or both of two things. First, have the entire transcript of this affair typed and 1 don't know how long that wil take for everybody to see and have them to send them over to the City Commission. In addition, where there are clear definitive areas of your disagreement which voufeel you have not adequately expressed in these meetings. I at happy to receive written statements from you and submit theta to the City Commission indicating your disagreements. Further I will not make a proposal to the City Commission until such time as one everyone can have adequate notice -- until I receive such indicating in writing of further areas of disagreement for sections which you believe ought tbbe included.Now then, it has been proposed to me that I bring the matter up to the City Commission at it's next meeting on October the 90.Obviously, under there requirements or suggestions which I am making I can— not at that time have any such time ready nor can you or anyone else, so we will not be able to bring the matter before the City Commission at that time, that if the Clerk will inform me as to when the next City Commission Meeting is after October 9th the regular City Commission Meeting we can set a target date for that meeting. Ir. "'. Cram:: Mr. Lloyd, lct me say in all deference to your high position this is another one of the city's tatics to stall that's all it is. nr. Lloyd: Wall Mr. Mc Crary. may I z-espond to that. First you tell me that you object to my doing anything without proper notification of the parties . without proper Mr. `fc Crary Mr. Lloyd, we have no reason to believe the city when you have acted in bad faith in everything we've got. I refuse to compromise anymore: Mr. Lloyd: What do you want to do? All I've had from you is ---- Mr. Mc Crary: All i am saying is I don't want Justice leaving here with anything that proports to be a agreement between the City of Miami and the Justice Department. Mr. Lloyd: WE11 obviously. there is nothing that can purportto be an agreement between the Justice Department and the City of Miami, because 1 do not have any authority to enter into an agreement between the City of Masai and the Justice Department until it's been approved by the Commission. Mr. Mc Crary; What is the Rum total of our meeting Mr. Lloyd today? What effect does this meeting have? Mr. Lloyd: S have expressed that so many times but I'll awem it egaig.T'hs sum deficit here i+ to get an indicat ton of what we can present to tie City Cartesian for their approval. I can't speak for the Justice Department but 1 would assume that Mr. Padgett a1s0 has to ,'i44 sane approval from possibly a higher authority this even his a igh position is;that he doesn't have absolute authority here today mtthor or ysstsrday, or the day before, ate I have not. how if yesu *poet to the cost twat ion of the sooting 2 OCT 3 - WS and wish t:c7 c,i11 the Mayor. 1' l i wait until you call the Mayor and find r ui Mr. Mc Crary: I object to the continuation of the meeting on the grounds that what you ace doing is proposing to the .Justice Department today. Mete are thins we are going to recommence to the city. tt is another waste of tithe if we ate going to recotntnend that to the City CoMmtssion let them be here and know it and get it first hand. Mr. Lloyd: 1)o you wish to c,a l t them now? Mr. Mc Crary: Because once again if wt. don't do it that way it's going to be another stalling t.iitic like Cohen vs. the City of Miami,and people are not going to compromise anymore Mr. Lloyd. You are talking about October 23rd, this is the same thing we did the last time from Septemher the 1.7th. Mr. Lloyd: You want it on October t1.o t'th? Mr. Mc Crary: Pardon. Mr. Lloyd: Would you 1 ik. to have it ..n oetoher the 9th? Mr. Mc Crary: want t. have it as Noon as we can if it means Saturday, Sunday, 1 don't care when it's held. I just want it donee and I am not going to compromise. Mr. Lloyd: Mr. Mc Crary, I have no authority to tell the City Commission to be here today. i will suggest and make it a part of my City Attorney's reports on October 9th if you feel and I feel we can get the thing done. I don't think so , but I get two items from you--- I Fret first-- we haven't had anything --anytime to do any- thing. Second, but we got things solved. Now then ---- Mr. Mc Crary: I want it tinishEd this week with everybody involved. Mr. Lloyd: Well Mr. Mc Cr.iry I say again I have no authority to convene the City Commission. The Mayor waS 4cre on Wednesday afternoon I got my instructions to continue the meeting. I am doing so. Now then, If you can stand here and talk all afternoon I can do nothing else. it you wish to have five minutes and call the City Commission I'll wait. Mr. Mc. Crary: Mr. Llovd, go right ahead with the meeting.I'll take some action. Mr. Lloyd: All right - there is nothing that I can do. Now then is there anyone else that wishes to make a statement at this time? Mr. Titlebaum? Mr. Arthur lidtlebaum: I'm Arthur Teitlebaum,Director of the Ant 1-Defamation League, I'd like to continue the discussion for a moment with Mr. Padgett that we had yesterday regarding the issue of quotas and preferential treatment and the possibility of the plan t cor,lent dt : ce, he Affirmative Action Plan, being interpreted in that fashion and practice. I'm wondering Mr. Padgett if you would agree to conclude in the language of the decree/and the uitim:ate agreement. The language from the Civil Rights Act of 1964 40.40 Mr. Padgett: Mr. Tdtlebaum, I may ---- it may help if I tell you that I don't think you can agree to include anything until we've had a chance to discuss the matter with the city and see what cone out of this particular matter. Mr. Arhtur ').tlebaum: Well then let me make this proposal to you and the city :epro:entatives who are here. that the language of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Title ViI, Section 703 paragraph"J", which reads in part- nothing contained in this title shall be interpreted to require any employer, employment agency.labor organiasatioa,or joint labor rtanagaent committee subjected to this title to grant preferential treatment to any individual or to any group because of race, color. religion,sex or national origin of such individual and it continues on --- I think the langague of the Civil Rights Act that particular language Incorporated in the decree will ---- to insure that the decree - is not misinterpreted whatever the decree utimetely is is not misinterpreted an that particular subject. 1 also suggest that consistent with the spirit of past 13. item 7 having to do with the promotion under transfer, there's section a and b and perhaps further on, but particularly paragraph(b)... Mr. Lloyd: 1 wonder Mr, litlebaum if you would indulge with us. I have promised everyone when we come to that particular portion they can sake statements. We're on paragraph 5 now. Of course if you have ---- if you are troubled by time.... Mr. Arthur Teitiebautu: 1 just wanted to -- Mhos than consider that in any detail let ow tndiciate to you that section illustrates our concern. I think that section es it reads am line for lies. That is page 13, item 7 and paragraph (b). 3 OCT 3 • 1171 Padgett: Let me ask before you tend that one of the things I'm going to ask that you do is that you read the definition of affected class and what we all said about promotion and transfer and if you read these in right of that particular paragraph. I think you will clear up some of your objections because you've obviously for read- ing that out of context and you read that as indicatingapreference for someone vho may be unqualified or chosen for some other ;articular reason. I ask that you read all of those together before you make yout statement concerning 7(b). Mr. Arthur 7ltlebaum: I'd he ';nappy to do that. My understanding from the spirit of your comments now that you think that it is not in existence with the act. If that's the case then I'm delighted to hear it. 1 will then just iterate if you will that the language of the Civil Rights Act which i referred to I believe ought to be apart of the consent decree particularly in view o: the misunderstandings as expressed by certain city officials and the issue of whether or not the consent decree implies or requires a quota of preferential treatment. Thank you. Mr. Lloyd: Mr. Padgett, with your I would like to make myself a brief statetnen' and I apologize in advrnce for all of the statement making with due to everybody else but 1 think it's necessary in th light of what we are about to enter into. Now we are getting into areas now where I feel t'Zat very probably I cannot recommQnd the adoption of certain of these paragraphs by the City Commission. 1 an certain in making this statement that our it Commission and the Administrative Officicals are all aware of not only of .heir responsibility to comply with the law but I'm sure they are anxious to do so. And indeed,the City commission .`.v resolution as indicated as dedication act- ually to an active program to insure eon -discriminatory employment practices and it's because of this dedication in fact that we are proceeding toward the end of accomplishing a document in the form of a consent decree in the federal court and I seriously believe that with only a few minor exceptions indeed,that there has been generally exceptance of the terms demanded by the Justice Department, which we feel we can recommend to the City Commission tor approval. Now -this I submit has been done in a spirit of willingness to cooperate to insure non-discrimination. Now --- even though we have not received any precise allegations from the .::,slice Department regarding the areas of alledged discrimin- ation,thus i think any consent decree which we would enter into would be approved by the City Commisiion on the basis of their indication of willingness be bond by a decree and thus good faith. Without specific allocations and not merely because of the threat of litigation.. So, .t will be on the basis of belief both from the present and the future of our Affirmative Action Programs and I think we are now reaching areas -I say this because we are now reaching areas of difference of opinion as was indicated last night as you all know and the basis of my difference of opinion is legal and legal as applied to what maybe a factual situation. I think possibly we may get into areas of the proposed decree which will require more than either the law allows or possibly would do justice to the do,tice Department or present us with requirements which might be vile to those cert- ain section of the law. Now, of course if we were - simply agree to all of the terms of the consent decree in which the negotiation that merely demand an acceptance naturally and decree would not inactuc.ity be a consent decree. So that I would like to ir. :nc ,ur under •.::,d:oc,s that we will proceed with item 5 on goals and w.. .gave presen.ed to the Justice Department Mr. 'ad&ett: Look, : don't want to make a statement but I think you are jumping one it's just one paragraph before that... yr. Lloyd: Ch' I'm sorry, you're right. your're right. All right. Yes (4) C. Now, I've had some problems with this and I would like to hear from Mr. Paulk who will ant us that Indigence on this. I think Mr. Paulk you had indicated a problem, it may r her S..t I think there was some problem. I have a note here ttae end grade reduction. .s taat a problem applicable to this section? Mr. Paulk: It could be. In reading the section. the City shall eva lunge its time in grade and performance evaluation requirements for promotion and for assignment to positions other than patrol officer (including police investigator, detective aad.narcotics tawsti- gator) and shahl develop time in grade and performance evaluation standards Which do not have the effect of selecting white anglo males at a higher rate than blacks, Latins or women. Such selection process shall be consistent with thgg ©ale and timetables set forth 14 this decree icr promotion. There presently are certailend grads requirements for certain kinds of jobs such as two years in grade to be eligible to take tbs examination for police captain. two years In grade to be eligible to take the examination for polies lieutenant frua the lesser caress of sergeant. there is a of time is grade require- ment as a police officer to take the exametnat ton for police sergeant dspendia, upon academic achievement. Mr. Padgett: All right what we are asking then ---What were'rs eimtmg at is soms- •titas to inquire --- rectory the situation is for example --- there are a member of posit - Leas within the rank of patreta.s that arm available to everybody. Ids are asking are they ties and grads----(usinteillgib ..) - in fact sormally many times plies depart- 4 OCT 3•115 Tents including Miami, the first assignment of the recruit out of thr school is undercover as narcotics investigator, so MP are :eying on these time ant grade requirements for some of the more desirable aren't actually necessart►---- Mt. Paulk: Let me just Ko'ver that particular portion because I haven't gotten to that. The assignment of a police officer to police invest- igator, detective or narcotic investigator. All of those ate investigators in a sense that they are assigned by virture of being a police officer. That is a departmental decision, it's not one of the Civil Service Board. Going back some years ago, the detective series of classification did exist and they're likelihood, although I have not checked it ---- Mr. Padgett: Let.me give you something s 8eadd n to it for a*ample say a motorcycle patrolman -as oposeto a oo patrolman. as we un et and the practice now it is not necessarily done on a very objective basis. It's whether the head of the motorcycle department likes the way the person looks or how well Ages known that kind of thing. We're asking if there be some kind of objective way of assigning people to these various departments, as opposed to friendship and knowledge of people within that particular, that's what we are asking ---- Mr. Paulk: I understand what you are talking about. That is it bottles the police department in that particular sphere of operation because that is where the assignment ---a police officer to the various types of duties that police officers perform and I'm not talking about the sergeants, lieutenants and captains. tau► talking just about police officers where the amount of patrol, motorcycle investigator, narcotic or what--- there are likewise some sergeants that participate in theist kinds ot things and lieutenants and captains and on the basis of the depart- mental requirements and I think they need to speak to that and they need to have some understanding as to your concern and why that's contained in this particular portion. Mt. Padgett: Well, I was stating the reason we think it is not being very objectively assigned. Mr. Paulk: I understand that but ---- Ms. Anne Nicol: I have a point that I would like to make. Having been a teacher of Arithmetic, I see a basis arithmetical problem which may arise from the--- using your own words'Mr. Padgett you said all things being equal minorities will be assigned, will be excepted or promoted --- Mr. Padgett: If they are objective standard and objective selection crtterial. Ms. Anne Nicol: May I continue? Mr. Padgett: You may continue. :is. .icoi.: All things living equal minorities will be promoted assigned,etc. at the same rate as white. At this point. I'd like to say all things are not equal and the implementation here is that since there are more white officers than there are minority officers that we are speaking in numbers. There may be a restriction on the assignment of white officers if they are working on precaution rather than straight numerical --- Mr. Padgett: I don't disagree with what you are saying but I think you are talking ,out something I am talking about the situation where -in tilts here minority officer ,carat by the nature of many police department and most organisations are set-up the biggest class of officers is going to be patrolman. I don't you can question that but 1 am saying within the classification of patrolman there are various duty assignments. Ok. And what i am saying that these duty assignments as presently set out are not necessarily set out so that people can using what ----can freely transfer between particular job assignment. Say as interest for desirability and the other factors it make certain jobs more desirable for a certain individual regardless of race. even excluding race. Ns. Anne Nicol: I understand that. Mr. Padgett: The fact if we were talking about using a justice criteria this goes right to your point. 1 think --- regardless of what we do if we and the city and we are able to .,gree to a justice criteria then it will benefit white officers more than it would any minority office simply because there are more of them. I think that was the point you were making. Mu. Anse Nicol: 1 understand that point perfectly. sir. but all I'm sayiai$ is that on straight numbers there are scare White officers imam there are minority officers. Mr. Pad .tt s Ceaeeded. Mr - Ma. Anne Nicol: That's right, which means that if you may this statement here --- selecting angle rates at a higher rate than grant if that is a numerical rate it will restrict delintluent of white officers. If it is a proportional Late on the other hand it will not restrict them. Using that same logic you ern say that there are not enough minority officers to go around because they would have to be promoted or assigned on a one to one beau if we are to understand that this is numerical rather than proportional. It's a basic arithmetical problem. Mr. Padgett: We would agree with you but there are not a lot of minority officers to go around, that's one of the reasons we ate here and we accept that statement. Regardless of how you cut the pie whether it's on a proportional basis or from what we've been able to find out there surely has not been a -••� of minorities in assignment3. So what we are saying is utilizing the potential basis they still hasn't been allowed to any great degree to take advantage of these things. Ms. Anne Nicol: I understand that, but I still would like the clarification is this a numerical one for a --.. Mr. Padgett: No we didn't 'a} that- --- it's clearly not. Ms. Anne Nicol: Well it's not clearly not because when 1 read it I got a different implication or but perhaps it may be clear to you sir, it's not clear to me. Mr. Padgett: Ali right - well is there anything that t can do to enlighten you? Ms. Anne Nicol: You can tell me whether it is strictly numeriial or proportional. Mr. Padgett: 1t is not. Ms. Anne Nicol: It is not what: 1 asked you an either or question. It is either numercial or proportional. Mr. Padgett: Well let me took on it this waye.the statement you made is not relevant to what we are saying here. What we are saying here is that we just want these artifice' ':arrier - take them down so that everyone may transfer as they see fit or as their ability and desires penetrate. Ms. Anne Nicol: I understand that point but what I am saying sir is that if I can read this and get another interpretation from it than that part which I understand and agree with you on that perhaps within the language there is some or some aces of misunderstanding. I ate saying that in addition to the area in which we agree that there is another area I seen the problem there in interpretation. tir.da Jamieson: Ms. Nicol, do you understand what we are trying to say. I think, .4 phi a .c : ,u are . ;;i,::rued about is that you are not using a select- ion devise in this case of time and grade requirement that has an adverse impact on minorit- ies. Ms. Anne Nicol: 1 think that Mr. Padgett and I have agreed on that Ms. Jamieson and that I am in perfect agreement with that. What I am saying is that in addition to that point there is another area which may be misunderstood and I myself misunderstand it. I not understand whether you are saying that there must be a one for one numerical rslat- 'ouchip or a proportional relationship. Ms. Linda Jamieson: We are asking that you develop a job related time and grade requirement. Ms. Anne Nicol: That does not answer my question MA. Jamieson. I can see her point here and I think it's well taken. You are say- ing that anything that could be misunderstood would be misunderstood and 1 think that although you have the clear understanding of it, whoever has to administer this thins or whoever has to judge from this it should be clear and all you have to do instead of saying rate is either say numerical or ratio. Ms. Anne Nicol: Which i would object too. i would object to numerical. 1 would not object to ----- Yell it's only fair ---- Me. Anne iticc►l: Well you see if 1 can infer that trots the writta: demist tbes than Might ha as area which is not sutticisatly clear. lieu i am not trytmg to be dltttcuit I as mot trying to be arduous»-- 6 NT101171 But l understand that you are trying to get me to agree on something which I 've already agreed too. I agree that there must be A review of time and grade, that there oust be no artifical barriers. Mt. Padgett: That's all we're saying. M. Anne Nicol: Well I'm sorry it's not clear in the language. It's not clear frost, the language and what I'm saving is that(yes) we agree on that point Mt. Padgett, but we do not agree on the fact that I have a problem with this language and not being the most brillant person in the world I would assume that other people would have the sane kinds of problems that I'm saying. that I recognize the problems. You refuse to recognize that problem and I want it on the record that this is an area of potential conflict with misunderstanding and potential problems in the administration agreement which we might come to under the current language. Mr. Lloyd: May your so -caviled interim substitute chairman be indulged for a comment here? First, I would :ik' to see -- in order to eliminate the effects of past discriminatory practices. etc. because w. are saying something inconsistent with the original paragraph and we don't admit anything. You who are admitting it by an inference , so number two, and everybody listen to this very carefully . Can we say that the city :*hail adopt and seek to achieve ----( oh' here I go, I'm on the wrong one again). Excuse ne, I'm sorry. I apologi?e. Can we say this the city shall(and I throw this up for discussion) The City shall evaluate its time in grade and performance evaiutation requirements for per, motion and tor assignment t000sitions other than patrol officer,etr. etc, and shall develop time in grade so that all have an equal chance for advancement. Mr. Padgett: ,he question is more one of necessarily the way assignments are made than it ....:;sari iy the other thing Ind to ..hat extent I would agree if that's what you :ire saving it's on a fair --tl nt we can sly that's unclear. But you keep saying here that we're it :4;rt•••r1t':I.- rt'cegni:• the ,,roh:tem which you don't iilal ti' ; i all . tilt, r r _ :1•' : - �e.: 1 :-Ie 1 .. . i l ,..... .•.` . _ ' li `!,a i!ilt'IIt . he . I r-'�t t l ins 1 N't,tl l 1. like to it .. ... ....`I .ei.. .,1L^.1. .clog it' _ ut'ii:irt^.d...t G'ot:Id ob-',e't ty any in .te. t.•1:.;t'n i)4•i:rut: .,? . ..i': .-...'e t': t.`.itt' .iwav the .tl;:tt'•rit` t,i the people • '.. :i. t: :1... ,._ ..•cr of t..e t'.':13:'t.".t•Lao i-ny position based ' r _ 't - L. e , . t:.. :ot... w t,t, w:._ i';l,,t•i•; to t...ItC:ta, eiut this 't'? ... 't'.. a... ..le t,e. . Leceese pot. it'e work r'n•t,t' . an .,t 't i, .. '0U t. '.i ti "o..:1 one •i:3y to Coe oexi based upon `,it' a .'.'. .:er . . ` . .. . r'. w . t. i'tl Ni. �2ra. . w• �ll:d say' ha: the. . f l egit t i St':a e,.. io:: w,...o :::' :esin r:'f rer.:. _u Hacks, ia4 it , or w:e•ii •'vt r j L rn. v be another .,:roper "t- nn'.i• ..:�2,. t:l: .. . .. .. '': .i' ..c. (li'l•. ,'n . lit' .1t p irtrent things like :I..e .;.r ve5;t .t;ai_u "s. i.e ...v .' Tort:.t':i` .:'i a t e: e' - 1 narcotics investigator is not clew.. :t'•it ;or. ::.1i ice . ...c.. . . .....•.1. 1:.•:e4. li.'.:itors- there is no such title . ,.ar-.. ,' - :r,vt".t :I,l.t Ll:. . . .r. •.-t', t: ll1t.': i, : w,ir.t •:('tt t :.l.t:ress :2n4 poop, art' .hosen for say some of the o1itr or+',:i:I:Z'.tit�l.•� r.:t'1i:: tat itt'tt.lrt^t-t1: anc. tans kind of thing. Nair Gent:: Ok 1' : .ic:dre..e :':... Many people have Seen chosen for what people ,.e11;' 't; c t t 1,t el', :trt ..':. :o. wi •:un t say (uttintell ieih'.e) Many :.t.,i t,r i'ors througt;oet a ii.ti;ory of the Peace Department has been selected rather t 2el tt, ;out into patrt,: '.:crier where other people have to go, they've been selected ' .:;ed on the ii3L . that they wet, plater and selected and taken to the criminal investigation st ;on wt;r': e• tii»v Rent r..any ve.1:s vor i ng as criminal investigator because they were bid, k. &la;: i'e,: ce• Oi f ice,,; s ht•tn selected to go to the various units as perceive by th" in4iviatta:. We'_: wait a minute.--- you tatsaian the paint. :f you are talking about say tit;.t. you need tic cane blac.,c to do some undercover work in the black community that isn't what we art' driving at. major Conn: it you .et toe f int:eh please--- Some things in the department are considered elite. The detective assignment or to the plain clothes assignment bas alomys bass consider• od a very choice assignment. Pow whether the mean was taken up there because h. Was black OCT i•VI because he needed some work in the :.)rnmunhy it's not the question bore. He was black. He was more efficient it t`lw_ area, he was selected to go to a preferential job because he was black. `Chi: is the hi'tor•: tit tht police dei+attatent. We have selected 'at in speaking of f i.:c'r', ';, g:., to i r''f e'r.•nt i'll jnhs, those that had been wanted by white- officer- becau t the'': wt'r y `' i l i r;',c::i t and we needed latins to go into these jobs, but it is a f;::'t that the; h i i}'.''er taken into .j0.is that was preferred end ;ous'ht at -ter by white eft ice:'rs. tit;t.':- 'fr. Padgett: 'rn tt''lia1 _.;',.1 :;' :':re mi sing the pu nt. 1 guess ltniltt straight- : vn up and tell you that : hair: l f'C,e'c. t1s' ;�t+it.t. you. _just made but 1 understand that tl rf:' are other assignments that,on'; ha.'e :l r:i' i:li ::ut to titer' that the assignments arc made on t l':u tr,lti l.t: . t t t' i t tit.. `silt o; d who •'t'u kn:`w in the depaarttllent and not necessarily, because apparently of need or :AIiy oilier 'ob rotated criteria Now that's what l said to you And that's the point t-f that i":!r' icular paragraph. Major Gunn: We a:e deal' -left. with tl't' criminal investigation section (because you put the words in here) . ' F'-_ t ^_. : °'t' 'v'. .... police investigator, they are used in the 'riminll irnve.tititati',n. Mr. Padgett: All rigi.t i aid ti;F' '.•o;t. "detective" was misused in there.I conceded that. other •.n1; :,e'. i:. ;t' r:;.rem:; t;1e City of Miami is in this predicament it is now 1:, '•.)ecausc u:;Ip:i'."',1:- .-ha' arbitrary discretion given the police department :and that i zt' icr h.:5 bet.. ..t,cd to the disadvantage of latins, blacks and females. Major Gunn: bt.t you Ct�s1; i ti?i:' ,a'.:se. not necessarily se. Mr. Padgett: Weil if we Ct,c;,; get .he court you know, if you tell the city that (inaudible) -- we cud i; , the _:J: _. r.:a bt t•'e could see rit'!ht. Th it'q the way all suits are made. Major Gunn: It's now you approat';, i; - what prospectives you approach and what ob;ectivity you are using. See - !you can approach it from two different ways and see two different and see two different ----- Mr. Padgett: It's obvious that you are :.approaching it from particular view point to. I've forgotten your n.i11O(i'm ,;t'. -,,, `ut --- Major Gunn: Eugene B. ('unr:, from: the Police Department. I am saying that first of all that the city administration would object to any language --- Mr. Pat'gctt.: Nu, you s.id the po.itc department would object ---- Major Gunn: (Continued) would ob;ect to any language in here to take the right away :rom the Police c.c:mir.istratt,r to move people around in the department based upon the that's the Mr. 'a'e'tt: Ok. •' Ann: :?cni: l3.'?: r, Lieutenant Harrrison speaks, May I just say it would be ► re; ere n.'t' to tp,t Mr. Lloyd's Word for the area Of concern. Mr. Lloyd could you t:u otttt::: .eltrrrittivo --_:our's was :;tatcd at a positive matter rather than a t 1"E' t antrt. " . r. i ' o'.ti: Well , first you '.:u' °rstand this is only a suggestion and t.ic' An,' grade relu: rt,r .!,u that all have an egaai chance of advancement or assignment 00 'OOP - Ms. Anne. Nico.: And :rs a point of discussion I'm saying that I would prefer your phraseology tir.in the Justice Department on that point. Mr. Ken tlzrrisun: !'rate;r na'. ardor or .'oiice, I'd just like to make sure that war .ere talking about paragraph (a) subsection (c), Police Department (©pen). Mr. Pac'.gett: Correct. Mr. Ken ilarrison; This area of ciiscuesinn here has been a concern of my organisat- .tm ;or some Law. The theory here is that whore is an assignment where it's a different- ia: ch:,t it should be a ccopctittve situation and it should be handled either to t'ivi: S.c riic e• Board (stage where outside of the dep`arteent) to altevlate the things that you are •_al cing about, preferent!al so1ect;or.. be it based on roc dstitonal origin, or six. it he3 been the concern of my 3rgnizaticn for sew time. however i think that rather than ; estr in this to the 1 o .ace department only, as you have done in this paragraph. It wout7 'pc more realistic to address this thing city wide and to in an effect to remove the coal. citation of the preferestiai promotions. remove the word "promotion" from this provision 8 OCT 3 here necroise prd,,tion laer.t in the , m0,ns nn upgrade from one tank o another in almost ..very deoa:tm..nt And addr.•,,,,. ttl- assignment where there is a dif- ferential in pay which does o,LA:r i tht lice Department (1 don't know of other departments). We do heave 1 r t Which is a police investigator and they can ttcive up t r _1 t primal officer and they have not taken (.,:mpetitive iv, competed on an equal basis with anybody thnt has j*is bcor :cs. DspartMent Administration and they are put int- these ;slt:..!,-;$ 0: this li'ea here we could express a concern along with the line:, tau tment is talking about but also under- stand the point being addrcssd .:t, rt. do rai.-;e in to having the Police D,111rtment singled . nt . tl:at otLer d,..partments have r tuat-ions that sh,,!:ci Hoiort(: A Mr. f:ti: I Lhink wor:: "prometion" is well taken. 1 can seo whv that woul vroto. t: thing : want to ask you -- you at.tsaying, y,-)u art‘ h h the statement we made that these assignments Vma;le on the basis of any kind of obiectivity, is that wn Mr. Ken Harrison: assi0nments in the Police De2artment that are ir'irr v Mr. Padgett: All ri4at. taking ais pit it would help. I think we nor to sino,:. iz 1 eciiis to be creating some problem and 1 didn't ;ot ot- Lhe • - the Language that statement said you had made nod "promotion" nay be also part of the prob- lems we created. Mr. 1 !,*• :(lea also which 1'd like to hear from. Mr. Paulk: skip a portion of this which really is contained and therefo.!--e dofiit ..sont. Sc I'm going to read this and 1 want M-7,'!1 :H. .:ty :Ame in grade and performance evaluat- ion requircments for p tVtp Z1 in grade and performance evaluation standards whIch do not t;le oLOCI•se:octiag white anglo males at a higher rate than blaeks, latins kr mch. sotious repercussions because of the fact t I don't l‘now a. tme wnat Lae balance of what the identification of p-lplu of arc in r.at.v.t ica ns:Lrughout the city's classification stru- ctdre is. 1 dcn't Vt. tilat ;-.rti we not talking on that, but we must elude to it, becaw..;e p:opie who at a given classification who are alglo. black, or latin, t,.at may be eligible to take an examination ,nd raant !-.ot szwil a t • impact diminished because there is no- el:gible proroti(n from 111. 'as:3.ification for the next higher classif- Lati.o.... It iaLnot 1c ahidod hy. art. various time in grade for various types of lobs ,tr.dint; upon that partleolt.- :oh :=tly and the need for the kind of training to dew'. ,p th, Itrso:, or .;-onnel w':10 :Mould be eligible to be moved upward. radgfL.:Y. kilow tn.,!- and when you say tat you've evaluated that i-ocuirumun., or 1-:alL time and grade is needed to pick up certain !IC Of e • rtrc questioning but those situations where . t rh ths' 1:1:0 kind of :hings, those are the things we are .;! M. Pau7k: I'M saying whic aot have the effect of selecting white anglo • )--.0)er rate Lhaa b . .0. he it is not intentially, for instance • b13.71: :)n Mr. :)adgett; Ok tAe that 11 the extent that is creating confusion that's the point that I thinl: :41ss Nicol has mad. Miss Ant& N4o.ol: May ! make th'.. point that my name is Nicol, there is no "s". tor. ?aulk: May thy 1.ord ,ihow that Miss Nicol corrected Mr. Padgett. Mr. Mc Crry: Nr. Lloyd. 1 thinkthat caw of the things that the Justice Departmvnt w'an it talks about Investi&ator. The city has not told you all of . . ;l). There was litl,;ation 4 few years ago when blacks were not allowed to take the rgant L.Kamination. Mr. 214gett: Juirc. of 1:,e point you raised Mr. Mc Crary. Y7. Toe,' Cr4ry: 04. All rhr. Mr. ?aulk; I klou't view th.i section as relating to well Of COUrfae &cs say police depatnent. So it apparently does relate just to ths poUce dopartasst. 9 0 C T 3 • 117, Mr. Padgett: Weil. it veu ..tvine there is a problem existing he other departments we happily iry Iud, :er i rdet but our invef„Ligation of this ,h,w, that it was a parti,.ular r b'en in the police ,lepartment. Mr. Pau'.: Nc :'m no, it :. u,-;t. want to be sure what 1 was, all, with n11 tht feti r- it ee',Id btcome .i problem and it will be a prhlem ;lyre. out at this time. Are we not getting :1 little too spe,•ific hcr-nt3ecrot' NHu knew there is only so fer u ao. Mr. Lloyd: i am wohderiee ; tr. Padgett: I'm i think that small point did g.c a litt:e :enfuecl t( Mr. Liovd: Well, I w;,e -tire thing shouldn't just be deleted. !:r. Padet: We:I I ro,11:: !::,e deleted. I think the F.O.P. omitted that It was a .,)rchlt,m.1 In's it sLould necessarily be deleted. I am quite willing to Alange the Mr. Lloyd: Have .e7te te : th-e that t:le langUage is in doubt at this time? i tan only stAAest he left until we come up with some other language. 1 don's.. knew lr.7 then. Now then we come to the situaticn on the proposal ot the Justice Department. We have eeenter propoe:,trtment and th3CF where we are at the moment) Mr. TJadeettj:tnci t. :ut-t tnat we have presented a counter proposal would you like to be bean. Hr-i, t Mr. Pa,lg,?tt: ,k7e are not adverse te ellminate eliminate the ,,.,tte.7ts we de have preHems with flatly stat, w'lat the tbis document and attempt !e sticks bv i11ch y;r: wer. tac3e knc.:w . to oir proposal 1Fuees In other ways. (1) We t‘c ,d.ree defamatory such as in order to (.on't object to eliminating that but -c-ft at that it does not object, does not ' re4sen '-r that is if we are able to enter ee :r e we think if yot. had some kind of yard .,iiine, your effcrts and when we questioned t 1:Ing about. it wouldn't be a question of --- we ..mderctand a twc‘,.: t Ati !s reas:1 ,e're entering this. We understand that but we need 1 t1.1-11, wo le r off t: we have some kind of objective yard stick,,, *Dy which we -r going on and : don't think there's any- thir.1 more objective than e a- ac :nit ,aall seek co achieve (you know) a certain nercen.age of it's now hol • r. Lloyd: Well, of --urse, 7e:7:her ono, in my opinion your percentage is not based upon the available qualifi,d ierce ;;nd I would object to those percentages. Mr. Padgett: .e'P cln usk! f r;e ,,ati.stics, if that's what ---- Mr. Lloyi'.1 Actually. number 1 thini. about the proposal is that we are to s,..udy rhe ,:yht:. they are and then we can get into the es:ablishing :T'aegot. • 14. othi 7 tf wlice we ---- with your document is that you ln't y:7u: e he indate: in lecr-e and after you make a study then you'll .1!A .,t. them. 1 Oin's invc problem with that also. We think that L see anythin:,t lerc..-.ie Wit!. jS aeing as to what the goals should be. I o 4't think that takes a lo. ir.d Mr, Paulk's concern is that he was indicating that say turnover - I think turnover is kind of cyclical thing. I think from looking, at your hirino and ..filTilovmeer statie,tien over a period of time not just using this year (this pest year) whiCh 1 think is pociintfoireloted to an economic problem not necessarily that of the eity but natIonwide tb :ast yoar was that urge and (I'm not putting word" ini;o your molith) but : r.Link that's -- ?aoik: That could he no atiout that for the past year has been. Mr. Padgett: Wo are. ta1klr4- ,u! : ive year period of time and,you know,sec what :rom there using szly miletones (yearly). but I would definitely like to see that b, i4e1udod and to ever,,,01..(i$sattsfaction and everyone understands what they mean. Tbiti on. area where could be very clear, Lloyd: I woult; like v: 1,efork.- we come to any agreement in that respect wtoli the perccntacs alci are they bureau of labor statistics or --- ?adgett: We don't have any pro5lems with saying Bureau Labor Work Sts.istics. tor L:a7ks, !Stifle, and feMeeS coimbining those and using thee as the goal. 10 OCT 3 an have somebody work the-. and i,av'. , 1 mean suppose We hn v.' t,.� 1 .,. .-.ii'• s tat..st i _ s? and have some t11"7y Tar: Mr. i,1t Yt Do they tiavt such s:;iitor t11i`-• •irt.i: „r. Padgett: Yes they can hc ohtrlined --- that can lac obtained ant'. very, very quickly. t , i, i .ciir And than studying 1. tt�ti'cf 1 wc�t► ..1 be .`. Mr. � . t;t t•rt�.. .i :hen in i;• t n some proposals in that lint' 'is w,,•iic, :e Itt to ti:;.' Mr. Padgett: Well, let rie Are A t:,:at ou wo,lid accept them or evun after we got then, v(:.'Li wont,: `i` i 1. cue, +Lion +c i )r'in', tots high or you want to cut them dawn from that, i , ii,. w•: vcu ..rr• sir. '..1Ovd: WEE i, rs.ariiv (n.t. I w:1lili like to see them and : �• .re ?il. rt,t et Is for this are;.. Mr. Fadgr'tt: Good. Mr. t.'tiylr nan hie L s r .. . r . t'rr:n;-. too, 'ht' citv's? .re rt'fta: .'n specifically to the city Mr. :'ad.;('tt: Weii so the ci:v is what we 'ire about. residency requirement, . 1. .,i 1 t 1' •r•.. i'• a 1 'c l- t ,► a. 1: a*, e ti,r. Padget , ,:1 4 ..:i, M Lloyd: . would i, ntr where W4 , , 071 t::t'rc 't1 tit,, statistics s it we could and see Mr. Padgett: S1K •«• '1t to make .. and 1.' !',t'i u i i'' you'll have them --- w ri t, an half an hour. Mr. Loyd: All ;iiL tila:ti , we c:.o on - ? .trt'-::k.': Mr. : ask r:ucstit,Ji on comment that w3. j st midt-• on recrui:.1.iF; are. i, ::he Civil Service ):)ard has elected to re- strict us ..o tho City of ".lair; recruit Inc.t. Nc*w w'Zat happens later on if we decide or Cavil :her.fc•e cr something ing is or they change their minus and say that they want to recruii. ,'11 1 wider base::? Mr. Padgett: well the reasc)n they wane to recruit on a wider basis is because they're saving that they are not able to get the people they want within the particular job office so the pool is larger if yoi, go '_o a wider .;►'ea. Jaremko: 1 understand it tau:_ wails Iris restrict us into the existing recruit- 4 er the flexibility there to :zilow expansion of residency. Yr. .tli .. at'.. a quo,t1 oil r.'ct' open at t'.i`i particular time because yester- .- t i was we !a‘: :is t:` c .. involving ci _v_ residency requirement. The city ij ._ (�:_:►.' 1 think the police department if I'm not mistake-. Yesterday the question t. ly in t :•' -its* residenc\ re^,s i rec: n'; , tit city indicated and I think it was the T c d;;.artm ;it if I'm not miz.taic_r. tk, is :iiey think they could get adequate supply ?!)1 / •"air from within the i'. . . think pec;;le o Luc' audience questioned that particular ;uestic,n is open right now. It was thrown out say use the t i; .. t and then taper it they can't get the pool of npp l icants there and use the County ':ci' hive city residents c preference. Mr. Harrison: Again my concert, is specifically addressed through the police depart- meritJJ w tc: ,'1 ori;o tza:tion i s dr.i - it's membership from. is pending legislation a state nr;i ir�r _ i It tl , ,14tuxcib that would recu i re < dd `_ t tong i college to be a police officer? If that passes it certainly put ; a hardship on the city to attract qualified candidates At. i .ic tt : Olt : , then this, rifler devise would Chen be used if we agree to that. l i.;v 1 ;'--eblc•n: with the st.,t'scics algal and again it's probably because ► s ate'( .l t0;1(.1hL'r ,t iir:thin':ii'. Using a rigure for example. of 50% minorities in ri t t . D. we krow ii:d.'t•d, tha► .n some of the areas w'.ieh require licensing. -cr • i f :, :1 c 0, cons_ c:c*rat !ohs. :her( are 50% o' those persons holding i ensc'i: in minority , Let mt. finish. If we aavo the 50% in the job catagory.otae (f rltt , fight t atcgories suggested by the federal govertut ntt that would mean in those areas ..:acre 1"sr rt' art• not SO% you would be fa:sing ct t r job classifications to accept only .eop't tram certain groups, Now -let me give you an example before I'* finished, according mo.tictics which I have been given to present to she members of the bar of the United 11 OCT 3.WS States+are female. So in that job category --- that _Sob classification remelt attorney it! in you cannot fill S07'.; of the jobs reasonably with females, which Teife that other ,lassifications are going to have a quota imposed upon them in order to make the 50% across the board to that category, so what I am suggesting is that there be a further breakdown .and base our percentages on the best ravAilabe statistics with a provision but in addition to attempting t,, remove the goals which we will agree too, We enter into even f urt.her, of f i mat ive action by encouraging members of Min- ority groups to enter those prOfessirns and vocation where they are underrepresented. A:1 I'm saying is a 50% across the board or a 307 across can create quotas in certain job categories because of the underground ahil't:y of persons at the right ratio of sexual persuasion to fill thoe positions, therefore I think that across the board percentages may be unrealistic that we may have to go in ,addition to the eight job categories that are set up by the federal government on our EE---- reporting that were perhaps percentages. We may have to be more finite and describe job catagories a little bit more so that we have more than eight. Mr. Padgett: Ok. I think we :tt&tipted to do that in some respects but getting back to your broader question : dont'-ti,ink that it isn't worth us sitting here arguing the point. But if we are talking about something like attorneys and you use that as an example (first part inaudible) ---- say in the City of Miami I think there are twelve say ii there is a goal cat 5V, minority attorneys we .are talking about six people. Now if I would rather you don't even have to get out you don't even have to get out of the county to ;lit•r, that gran, pE>ople. Ms. Anne Nicol: Yea, but see I'm saying something a little bit Mr. Padgett: Let me fini,h the other part of it. And the higher you go in terms of a job skill the less the market is anyway but in most of the higher skills positions within the city, say for example, s:iv a two weeks quotas, I'm sorry I've forgotten the job, there's only one in the city , so we are not talking about goal within those high skills positions and i think that's what you are aimed at. It's appointed at the bottom where the leas skills positions --where we don't think it's going to be any kind of particular problem and in th' p,s!ti.>:ts within the city where it's promotion from with- in from the available pool of minorities who already worked within that particular problem Ms. Anne Nicol: 1 w.itt to, give you another example Mr. Padgett--- within the Job category that the job classification communications technicians fall there are other job category besides co:muni.i.ation cechnician. Now it's my understanding that in order to have this job you must have f., er.al licenses ranted by the federal communications cot;.rv? ssion and that the term:- c' gr.antin„ these licenses are in accordance with inter- natL_onal treaty. Now, it is alp:., my understanding that of the person who holds the licenses perhaps one out of 100 is a member of a minority group and one of out 3G0 is a tema;e. Now in the job category that this job classification fails it would be difficult to get for example, 50% minority in that job classification which means that since that job classification as one unit of a whole job category the requirements for hiring minorities :,r affected classes would be then access of 507 and could approach LO0% due to the unavailability of persons of minority groups or female in certain job classifi- cations. Mr. Padgett: All right let me tell you I would concede that if you came down here :and said you ca:''t find the';& people that's fine. But let me ask this, do these people have t, have a ..icense bef^re they arc hared by the city or !IF OP NW Ms. Anne Nicol: They have to have a license and they must have two years experience within the last five. Mr. Padgett: All right but I ass not questioning a situation whore you can get that peculiar --but i'mt using the ward peculiar to --- Ms. Ann Nicol: I understand how you are using it. Mr. Padgett: All right. And so :'in saying that if you came back and said that whit objection would I have-- : mean I wouldn't have any, but I'm saying --- most of the Jobs in the city of Miami are not that peculiar or not that unique. Mt;. Anne Nicol: Now may I ask a gaestioa on the percentages... Mr. Y.adget t : 11r. Pau lk wants to say something real bad. Mt. i' sulk: Yes we do have a number of classifications ---• Mr. Padgett: Ail right how maay people are we talking about sag+loyosat of.... 1`d like to say this if that .fob has such peculiar roqutre ants I think you will have a difficult ties not Duly ()mites roritios, you arc sole' to have a difficult white. 12 OCT 8 - you ate going to have a difficult time finding anyhody. Mr. i':iu1k: We have had some difficulty. Mr. Padgett: So I think -- I'm not saving rehutts her point but what I at saying is you know w; don't operate in ;i vacuum. Mr. Pautk: I think the paint that she is making towever is very firm that we need to follow something other than Ethnic composition of the City of !lineal community and should be related to the available work force. Mr. Padgett: I am not ifsagrcei :; wit,, you Miss Nicol and I think the point is well taken and what 1 honestly say we arty not -pc:sting in a vacuum and when those kind of situations arise that's all you got to gay that those people just don't people live In New York and they. don't want to move tr Miami. Ms. Anne Nicol: t k, I'm trying to ,.'ictr: tv a lot of these points on the record so that when it comes to administration, any consent decree that we may enter into or any other agreement that these things have been clearly understood by both parties on the record and 'n in agreement with the Anti-Uefats..tiun League that I would be opposed to anything which could be construed as a quota because of L,:'s inherit unfairness to whatever group or groups are represented, sc' I hate to belabor these points but I'd rather do it here than in court later. Mr. Padgett: I don't disagree with you. Mr. Mr Crary: Mr. Fadgctt and Mr. Lloyd, Miss Nicol speaks about quota , goals, what you have you. ---- She's part ot the administration. It's now changing it's position from Cohen. how ran you do that? Ylu've ;already agreed that you are going to have X- percentages and I'm relating this, only to the police department. Now you come back and sav "no" we don't want to do that. What is the city's position? You agreed on Cohen that you were going tc have 50';: lattn, 23::' white, and 22 Z black, what ever those figures were Mr. Lloyd: First, let's see what the decree says we agree too not what anybody states the decrt_., says. I'll read from it. Mr. Mc Crary: Read it: Mr. Lloyd: Then secondly. iet me say this that the disposal has been originally made by the Justice Department and the term Coals is now the terms that is used by the law to define what you will arrive at. I'm sure you know that's what result is. Now then para- graph 9 of that police Franklin Cohen vs. City of Miami,et al. Defendants Case states and I'll read it. The City of Miami shall recruit and hire more black police officers for the City of Miami Police Department. The recruitment in hiring a black officer shall continue until their representation in the department approximates the percentage representation in the City of Miami community. Such representation is expected to be attain within the :r•'ar court jurisdiction of this ordinance. Assuming that it will not acquire the city 'o lower its st:cndards for the recruitment of police officers. The City of Miami shall also hire person from other minority groups for the City of Miami Police Department in the same manner that the city hire black officers, that's what it says. Mc Cr e • . That's right `ir. LIoyC and what I am saying is reading that language the court rra+•r it. said the city shall and it does not say the shall try to. You and Know under statutory construction an a court order the word "shall" is mandatory. That's nat i indicated on yesterday. Now the city has already consented to certain percentages Hof the police department being taken from certain segments of the population and now you come back today with your goals paraplegia and say no we don't want any percentages. We're at a loss. Mr. Lloyd: Mr. Mc Crary, would you like to have -- all reference to the police depart- ment removed from this consent decree entirely? Mr. Mc Crary: Oh no sir: No sir: Mr. Lloyd: Well what you are asking for them is to have garnet htnd in the decree that': ta. •.r ,tile to yourself outstc►e apart from the Cohen case but where it's unfavorable you don'= wtc:.t te, abide by it. is that correct? Mr, Mc Crary; Mr. Lloyd not on have 1 acted unfaithful. dishonest or unfair dealing with this order. 1 rn simply :.ayind to you (1). You do *ot contain it bore bliss you have i;re.ray agreed to it. now which do you intend to do? Do you intend to go with this. or do '"'i intend to abide by Cohen? Mr. Lloyd: Yell the court vili tntoant us what us 13 to do oa Cobon. Tbs court OCT $- i still has jurisdiction of this caste and so we will follow wheat the Court says 1 would assume. Now then ---- Mr. Mc ('rare: 1)o you .agree that the city has agreed to quotas, do you agree to that in the Cohen case.' Mr. Lloyd: 1 agree to what this: Nays, paragraph 9. Mr. Mc Crary: Does it sav shall? Ir. Lloyd: It says, we shall recruit and hire mere black police officers, that's what it says. Mr. Mc Crary: And that proportion shall be proportionated to the population, does it? Mr. Lloyd: It says Approximate the percentage representation in the City of Miami community. Such reprtsentation is expected to be attained within the 5-year court juris- diction of this ordinance assuming that it will not require tine city to lower it's stand- ards for the recruitment of police officers. Mr. Mc Crary: `tr. Lloyd, a:; a lawyer is not that langua t mandatory to the city Mr. Lloyd: Certainly it is. Mr. Mc Crary: Ok. Theta the city has in essence said yes we will, the court says that you must have those particular percentages. If you can reach it without lowering your standards. Mr. Lloyd: "ihat's right. that's what it says and it says it is expected to be obtained within the 5-year court jurisdiction of this ordinance. It says expected that's all. Mr. Mc Crary: That's right it's expected, but what I am getting back to you Mr. Lloyd Mr. Lloyd: But what you've been saying is lately all the time that we must obtain it within i-years and that's not what the court order says. Mr. Mc Crary: Well, what does shall mean Mr. Lloyd? It means you have to do it. Mr. Lloyd: Yes. you've said that four times. Mr. Mc Crary: If you do not lower your standards and no one has asked that the standar is be lowered. Mr. Lloyd: I understand. I understand it perfectly. Mc Crary: All 1 an: trying to do is get the contrast and Cohen the court has or. , red ,:.au to do something that you must do. You come with your goals now and now you retroyent and say we don't want to deal with any quotas. I simply trying to find out Mr. Li,)yd: 1 didn't say that at all. Mr. Mc Crary: part of the administration. yr. Lloyd: No the administration didn't say it either. Well. Mr. Mc Crary the original concept of this was presented to us by the Justice Department. Now. Mr. Padgett has just asked in if we would agree to a percentage basis based upon labor force figures. So what you are saying is that you object to it with respect to the police department. Is that correct? Mr. Mc Crary: As it relates to the police department yes. I am using your definition ut goals, ok, not the Justice Department. I am opposed to yours. I am simply saying the MO Or 41, is Mr. Lloyd: i think our's is the same as the Justice Department as far as that goes. m:. :ii k.rary: Then there would be no weed W. Lloyd to have this three page document ,rs th the same ss the Justice Department. Mt . Lloyd: We are are talkie about definitions not percentages now. 14 OC $ ' WS Mr. Mc Crary: Mr. Lloyd, what is the city's position, are You *mire. to abide ttte Cohen thing and have the quotas or are you going to try and push this over that's all t want to know? Mr. Lloyd: Well, let me ask you a question, do you wish to have everything in the Cohen ran' vxc l ►de f term this consent decree? Mr. M. crr,ry: t do not Mr. Lloyd i simply want to know what the rity's p.oe+it ion is that's all. You have two things that are contrary. One is a court order and now you come with your definitions of goals where you exclude percentages. Now you are either are groins to abide by Cohen or you are abanding the Cohen position and accepting this postiion that's all. You see because the two orders, this consent decree and the Cohen are meet head on. The thing we are trying to avoid --- Mr. Lloyd: t'm sure they're meet head on in more areas than one. Mr. Mc Crary: They may Mr. Lloyd but we ought to try to avoid that. We're spending taxpayers money and wasting people's time. NOw if the city is taking the position that we are going to abandon our concept in Cohen and accept this then you are certainly ready to go to court and get it ok. If the city is saying well maybe we made a mistake, lets stick with what we said in Cohen and deal with the percentages. It certainly avoids you a law suit. Now that's unfair to the public for us to sit here and procrastinate, that's all I'm saying, what is the city's position, that's not difficult? You're either with Cohen or you are with your new position. Mr. Lloyd: Well now Mr. Mc Crary we have a decree in Cohen, it's there that's it. I intend to continue with this discussion on the labor force and I repeat my question to you if you wish to have the entire matter regarding the police department removed from this consent order with the Justice Department? Mr. Mc Crary: Mr. Lloyd I don't --- if that were lay desire I could not do it I'm not in power to do it. I'm really trying to be helpful today. The city has an order telling you that you've got to have percentages. You are now taking a different position from that and saying you are not going to abide by percentages. Now which is the city's real pos- ition that's all I want to know? Mr. Lloyd: 1 understand. When we finish the discussion this position will become clear. Do you have any further ---- Mr. Mc Crary: Yes I got some more. I told you yesterday we are playing jobs with people's money. Now the area --- Mr. Lloyd: You are making the re---- so continue. Mr. Mc. Crary: Well I'• not getting any answers! What do you expect me to do, now that's obvious to everybody in here that the city doesn't want to answer that question. Mr. Lloyd: Proceed. Mr. Mc Crary: The period of 5-years is there some sound reason for the city selecting 5-years in terms of it's goals ? anything? The last sentence on page 1 of your goals-- It is envisioned that the timee frame for the expected accomplishment of the long t s goals will not exceed • peciof of five years. Mr. Lloyd: That's correctly taken from the proposal offered the Justice Department .3rhaps Mr. Padgett would ltke to answer that question. Mr. Mc Crary: Mr. Lloyd I don't see that in paragraph five anywhere, no where is it listed in paragraph five. Mt. Lloyd: I think 1 got that from the jurisdiction of Ms. Jamieson: i think that there is a different* between the way we proposed our goals and the way ---- as its expressed in the city's proposal that is if the city expect to achieve the lens tern goal in five years. lT don't think that we expect that we simply would have you annual goals over a five year and i think it probably would take longer than that giving the turnover rates to achieve the lass term goal sot that your ettorts would cagtime volustartly after the five yeas period is .spire+. Mr. Lloyds We're actually talking about year by year goal pcomedies up to a final goal of some future tit. Mr. We Crary s Not for cockers is. My comers is as it is in the Cohen ease that we get the city at a pout after three yeses they haw tie progress that has to be lutimlt- 15 OCT$ • W$ esinai .,nil we will do the same !nine order names,: there is '' ae: guideline to show that there is a reportine, ">csrirci +'(,f i.}t;ieail� to show what progress has been Made and some kind of sanction if that ;:0'rs i has not been Made or absene.e, the city show- ing by good and solid evidence_ ;hat it .•01:6 Aet .achieve. As it stands now we 1te talk., ing about a five year period t h•a' =.t the end el t ive years. We got to wait five years to sere If the city is going to (:,' .tnethin . rkere is nothing here that the city .say we are going to report, that we w'1 em Department to ivnite't us. After four years you can ti,' absolutely nothinc; .. ..I, r ' 4 :r t!,A:S here. Mr. Llcyd: No, no Mt. Faulk: '4eraiy-annu;ail:•. Mt, i.,oyd. set;i-:at.. il,: in here it MtIlL.,+:1,4 that in addition of annual `'a}is with respect to the riporcHe geal. Mr. ?Ii• Crary: Mr. i.love : .:a.',' l,tain I lon't se( that in your memorandum. .ir. i',-i%Lli' : It's net i'. .e:r. Mc Crary: Wei 1 hat' .i ..; Mr. i.1ov(i: i thought it w:i , llerc it is. Acre it is on ;?.,,..,• +:n an innu:a1 7 isis. There .. Mr. `1c Crary: t1k. 1 .,..a ,e . I' f tie ,a1 1 :. J l.' on .a`.a .. , : i r,,; . :ata'i,il h.iSis. it. isn't.. Yes, It is in the order. yes --progress ,.cw:art1 ttl('sc };oriis will be measured Mr. :iced: Now , t:ainr. .ctr .. . -. ..l : . •iiri�'�-.s the .lust ice i)epartr.ent h:a a d: _ i greet .','n, e';lt than I i.id ,i,- _ t'..e' ,.t=. t ' 'nt. ..::'. '.. - ;ill to consider what Xs. da ie ..en bah proposed -see;' 1_,.. .•t, nr n. t t;1a:.,: tll, sl'.:'Ule, ne: fog. bet: sit- uation. I'm happy to listen to _. Mr. `. ('rarv: . . . ,.,, i :eilrtsenuin3:, the City CltC::. . . .. t ;ors - . 4s.i ..a, does it int.'na:'. to rc i_ ire bound to the percent ae's once .ii;;.itz ril,at clues :his committee intend t o recommend to the City r.: .., .{', u^.ent or do you intend to tell them that the d,. roc Ind Cohen? Li yt:: I intem.; t t c . inc:..ding your clients a:. ;ey intt•rpretati.m of those tear",., fla a w all parties are bound . .:.� :iefendants with respect to all ea: the' -L;issil'n that they are hound and all parties '•rr,-, of thy Cohen decree and I have my own nC . tll:t s everything in there. I'll tell you right w.,:; o . t;at decree. The plaintiff as well as the tcrr.s. Mr. Mc Crary: You l:now, i(r informational purposes the plaintiff have fullfilled each and every obligation dictated by the court and I'm sorry I can't say that for the city. Now it is fool uearting for us to rc. e c:i,;^icr:d _his in terms of goals when that is already c,_;urt. .girder we shouldn't do that. r-a:at's intellectual dishonesty with the City Commissio 4, already kne. , what we tuust co anti tc cease and deceive the City Commission and to deceive gale , .:biic tod., with so:rethini., d'f ferenct' is dishonest. y'.r. Lloyd: Now then lust a minute. This decree (proposed decree) is for things other ,,n the polici: eeparment. ih.., is not the only thing. Mr. X, t.rary: Yes sir. Mr. Lloyd: So what you are to:li%g me is that you wish to have with respect to this goal situation the police department acceptance from this provision. as iy Mr. Mc Crary: No sir 1 40 not wish to have them accepted from the decree. Mr. Lloyd: I said from this provision, that': what you wish. Mr. Mc Crary; That would be ;:le slog to me if we could take the police department it relates to those and Incorpor +to by reference the mandate of Cohen. We would certait avoid long protracted litigation. back ;r3Y Lloyd: Fine. May we aisc: cocT;•rate the Manutate o4 Cohen with respea.t to the provision also sir. 'Ir. Mc Crary: No sir 1,e au e' it'+. not Mr. Lloyds Oh it isn't? Mr. Mc Crary; No sr. 26 OCT 3•197$ ttr. Lloyd: I see sir then what you are saving then that on one }and you want to go by the mandate of Cohen and then your contention is that certain other provisions as you then are not willing to accept the mandate. You have a contention Mr. Mc Crary: If that's then we have just one lawsuit always been let's go to court avoid going to court where we the language you want to recommend to the Commission instead of two Mr. Lloyd. You know my position has with it. I'm in adversed to that. I'm saying let's can. Mr. Lloyd: Well let me gay th that's why we are here to avoid lit where we cannot avoid litigation in of the city. I am prepared to meet court says. is that I am as anxious as anyone to avoid litigation igation if we can. But if it comes down to the end order to protest what I deem to be the best interest a treat of litigation and we'll depend on what the Mr. Mc Crary: Mr. Lloyd I'm not a virgin to litigation either so you know I'm not afraid. Let me say this m.;v I recommend that we recommend to the City Commission ray the language of goals, that we take the language and lift that language from Cohen as to the quotas, percentages, the numerciais , what ever you want to call it and not include the goal language as it relates to the police department. Mr. Lloyd: I'm prepared to concur in that with this provisor that the entire bit of the Cohen decree be considered by the Commission and that it also applies to back pay positions as well as specifically with respect to the police department. Mr. Mc Crary: Mr. Lloyd you know I'm not going to accept that don't you? Especially with bad faith. Mr. Lloyd you're forgetting that you and the City Commission and the Administration have acted in bad faith. Mr. Lloyd: You say that, that's your allegation. Mr. Mc Crary: It's an allegation and I defy you once to say where I've acted in bad faith. I weighed something so the city could get policemen on the street and not once have you kept the word of the Cohen decree and everytime it's a lot of Mickey Mouse. It's three years, I refuse to compromise. Mr. Lloyd: Well then we'll find out won't we? Mr. I'aulk: Mr. Lloyd I'd like to bring something to the attention of everyone here although there is mentioned of the five years under this suit indicated in the court suit the jurisdiction didn't start back in 1973. It started in effect then but tt is superseded by provisions within the consent decree because independent testing agency will be retained, for five years from the date of the first test in that provision if you will look at it. So it's a longer period of time then just from when it was issued back in 1973. The first test that was administered from the motion wasn't until 1974 and that was in December. Five years from that date all promotional test fall under the jurisdiction of that court as 1 understand it. Mr. Lloyd: so after described by my extinguished colleague. I respectfully do not agree that the city has acted in bad faith. Number one the appointment of a black major w.*s months in advance of the time frame. The appointment of the testing organization was months in advance of the time frame I believe that are ahead of schedule. The counsel +ar the plaintiffs concur in this. All efforts are being made to recruit as fast as ossibie. Now then I do not believe that is bad taste and your contention that Lt is And it's my contention that it is not. And if it requires a litigation to determine why then that will have to be that's all. Mr. Mc Crary: Mr. Lloyd what are you recommending to the City Commission? Are you recommending these goals or are you recommending Cohen? Sir. Lloyd; I have told you what I will recommend and you understand it perfectly. Mr. Mc Crary: I am only concerned about one part of the order and that's Cohen. Mr. Lloyd: 1 understand what you are concerned with. I'm concerned with all parts of the order. that's what I'm concerned with. Mr. Mc Crary: Then certainly that question is still open. Mr. Lloyds Certainly. Mr. Mc Crarys Then 1 recommend that we do not recommend to the City Commission any Language. There are parties disagreeing we've doss it before right bare in these hearings. Ye would Leave that Language open mad not recommsad it to the City Commission 17 OCT 3•WS because wt. did not decide on it :and 1't sure FAIT does not agree with - . Mr. Lloyd: I'd be happy to leave the tangy:age open. Mr. Mc Crary: Then is that it we are not recommending any language to the City Commission? Mr. Lloc•d: I'm rather prepared to agree to that one. 1 don't know how the Justice Department feel ahv.it that. Mr. Mc Crary: It's going to save you. Mr. Lloyd: What I will do Is we will take all contentions and present them to the City Commission. Lt. Harrison: Yes if I miF1't get clarification I was reminded yesterday that I am not an attorney I would like to state that I'm glad I'm not because I didn't under- stand one thing of what went on here and I'm sure most of the laymans in the audience aren't sure of what they've just observed. Am I correct in my observation of what occurred. There is some discussion here of exempting the police department from the goals portions and including the provisions in Cohen for the police department as they relate to the goals. Mr. Paulk: He's correct Mr. Lloyd, that's the concept that Mr. Jessie Mc Crary wants to contain that ---he's seem to be agreeable not to contain any kind of goals in this consent decree. Mr. Lloyd: No I think we said was --- what we finally came up with was that we would make no recommendation to the City Commission and let all the facets be openly discussed. Mr. Paulk: Yea, but in the discussion I'm trying to get this orderly. This was a proposal by Mr. Jessie Mc Crary and you said you had no objection to that but you wanted to include the hack pay provision. Mr. Lloyd: No, no that went back to the original. Mr. Mc Crary made mention of course, what the Cohen decree and the provisions in paragraph nine of that decree and insisted that that should not be part of paragraph five in the new proposed decree that reference should be made to the Cohen decree. My answer to that was naturally the Cohen decree is extant and I content that it is extant to all provisions of the decree including a back pay provision and if indeed we were to have some back pay provision that if we are to abide by paragraph nine of the Cohen decree we must abide by all of it and the back pay provision would not apply to black police officers because the back pay provision has been decided in the Cohen decree thereupon Mr. Mc Crary made a suggestion that we today do not come to any agreement on goals but leave that matter(open) and have an open dis- cussion on the entire thing before the City Commission. Lt. Harrison: On that proposal I'd love to express this I think it defeats the purpose of 1 consent decree, the bargaining it is incorporated in the concept of consent decrees as originated through the various actions originally with Steel Workers Provisions I personally think that the negotiation should have taken place here. Of course, the City Commission has to give finally approval one way or the other. I think the provisions Cohen are mandated anyway to all parties whatever we agree to here we still got to live ith in Cohen. I don't think that anything I read in here would supersede Cohen and I remember specifically asking Mr. Padgett yesterday on the back pay provision and he was very explicit when he said that the black officers that were involved in Cohen would be included in the back pay provisions in this consent decree when I asked him that question directly yesterday. So I think the Justice Department is clear and made it's opinion ----- Mr. Lloyd: Oh ---I understand what there opinion is. I assume ----- I can tell you now that l do not intend to recommend to the City Commission an acceptance of the back pay provision. Lt. Harrison: I understand and that was included ------ Mr. Lloyd: Yes and the goals, I think obviously we are bound by the terms of the Cohen decree but 1 don't want it to be conceded that I'm admitting anything with respect to anything else sew. Lt. liarrisoat All right 1 think that we were crossing lines the back pay provision is something else we are discussing goals. 1 think we should stick to that provision. WE are mandated by Cohen. the police department is anyway and I would suggest that anything other than Cokes would be outside of what ws cam do. I think we have to live up to Cohen whatever we do. 18 OCT i••is Mr. L1t`'.J: I've agte d to that. Ma anla paint is that 1 think we must live up to Cohen of our respects and apparently Mr. Mc .;rare and I have' al different conception of what the terms of the Cohan c :t .. area in its tin' irety see. I intend to continue thr discussion as to goals and what I'm going ta do is a matter of tact in all of these cases is to present full di =,,us ion bafora tha City Commission. Mr. Padgett we can continue on this and if you have soma f ig;art'-; I'd be happy to --- Mr. Padgett: Here's what I've been mile to gather. The force work statistics from the general social economic shirts end tables of the Bureau of Census for 1970.t table 85, 92, and 98 show that for the City af '•tia;ii latin work force population is 20.4 ,f the city population, tot latins it is afy.9and fettlaale:a it's 447. to order to a\':yid thv question of the problems of Jon! ;o Accounting We didn't include females but coming up with 46.9 and 20.4 we tome ap wit :; (,7.3.2 of the working in population as black and lot in. Can you rept-at couldn't hear them to clearly.? Mr . Padgett: Ok, for the _ i • : t Work For t e Popular. i.)n Statistics for Blacks art 20.4, for laatins they are at;.9 .17;ti ;,'r fa;u,:aa 44.0, ok and in combining that (without counting females in the totals) 1st',. auL'e' th'.�ra is a , c•rtain e1cra nt .if double counting there Including females, I Fame up with !,7 , i Mr. Lloyd: May I make a comment ht•f are you --- Mr. Padgett that is why 1 wanted to hear those figures to see what the figures wort' htiore I made any agreement. That is not what your Washington plan did. Now our Washington noted that in Washington they were 70% minorities. however you work force population was not general. All that is, is general work force population, that's all that is. That was broken down into - specific catagories and one thing comes to mind that it was noted that in the Washington plan that there was something like 70;. minaritie's• howe.vcr in dtaling with I think unions it mentioned like about. p lumbers, hut i t t :am'' lawn c t ha a pa,- it it.' iaa•rt't'ntage poi nt for plumbers was like . or and th'.a i it .i . Kt [ It,t:rt' i`r mv- a l t t'• aid this is what was done in : of that 1.4ttit `.'I' you ta ,;i•.c. us broad t'atagories ,. tit t i.t ro in the a;:. rt' taikinc, t • [ ...i`.t . .ia',t t Ii, t lOn •• i 11, . Yea , •a"i)I i t . Yea wt' L+ . i 1 dr;i'.. tilt' lit i iY.:e 'lr, i'adf,e•tt: But lat .:aa I'm aa aayina that at fit. i is th.• total nu:abe•r :,ut what I am sa''illg is that at you are' aa:aa the Washington plan as an analysis ! think that you are la error. That woula La li;:t' ma if 1 was manufacturing love and 1 were only i,.'ok1r: for na hine opar.ator s.' it wo:iid lie- irreverent for me' to say that I'm using total wore. tone. I' i 1 just be int.-rt'st lag people who are machine operators but with the City Miami and tit it's and state' ..,overnmLnts a,re clear examples where they almost use the ent ire work forge. ::. . Anne Nicol: Yea, but an t:cat very point Mr. Padgett 1 go back to the point that I Ade previously. It is true thaa:. tl.t' City of Miami has a broad cross section of jobs fable as an employer, but the paint I tried to make previously is that across the )al cataguries of all jobs .available within the City of Miami. Why is it that you are e only one who can finish: I'd like to finish my statement before you interrupt me. an I do that? Mr. Padgett: You are corre.t. I apologizes. Ms. Anne Nicol: Think you. :across these broad cataai;orias there are not sufficient numbers of blacks, latins, and females within each of the finite catabories. Now we are ,:oncerned not only with numb.'rs, wa .arc concerned with concentration, we are concerned with underutillxaat fan. Now when you take three dispersed factors such as. the unavailability of people avoiding concentration :and avoiding underutilitation. 1 don't think that you can go in gross statir:tics(67.4, 92.3),wluatever numbers you want to use. What 1 am saying is :flat taesidcs the eight c:atagorles of jobs which are described by the government and under - which we report tab our EEO4 that particular consideration must be made to individual jobs or groups of jobs within the job .=aatagories and that it may not be poasibte to achieve the 07.3 number without to fact twiny, guilty of either underutiliaatian or especially concent- ration and 1 would hate to accept ., number because it's the only number available and in .Attempting to imp/enact that,inrrlement anoth4r t:1 is addition to the that we are trying to cure. What i an saying is that you cannot(: cannot) look at this thin; broadly and accept 4snketra is job catagortcp without a very, very intensive ONAIMLA4tiO4 of not )sly the gross 19 OCT 3•S labor statistic, for the City f Miami, but the more unite statistics Lot each group within each job category, that way we will not only be fair we will not be causing a second ill in order to cure the first ill. Mr. Padgett: The way I would like to respond to that is t think if you look at the document for the goals that we propocrd. We took that into consideration there are only certain job categories where we :or goals that even approximate the work force population and those were in jobs such is police officers and fire fighters where it is where the people are trained. In fact the question in respond to Mr. Lloyd gave in the situation of the Washington plan what they were looking for were people who had al., ready obtained the skills. In tact what the police department does it hires people trains them for its purposes and goes from there. In fact ail promotions are from with- in so we never even get into this problem, ok. The other categories wherein that there is a need for certain kinds of skills this kind of thing, say technical positions.. that kind of thing we don't ask for work force statistics. We just don't.ask for work force percentages-- now let me finish. A;1 I'm saving is that what we attempted to so is take that into account. Now what we are saving is that if we can come up with a workable percentage less than 70Z we're willing and ready and able to consider it.. We've said that time and time again but all I hear is that apparently the responses that are coming on the basis on the 70°4 and so I got to respond on the basis ,f that. Ms. Anne Nicol: Yea, but you see the point of it is Mr. Padgett in an area where someone comes pre supposed with the skills for example entry level official and upper level administrative positions. Why do you choose 207? Mr. Padgett: Why do we choose 207? I'm glad you asked that. Because we are getting comment from the Latin community that that's unbelievably low that there is clearly enough professional within the latin and black community to almost literally double that and I think if somebody from ( and I didn't talk to the gentleman from S.A.L.A.D.) but I think he would agree with me, is that not true? So what they are saying is that we are short changing them. Ms. Anne Nicol: Well another point that I'm trying to make is that exclusive of the 67.4 or 70% or whatever it is it :;«:ems to me that some of these percentages have not been sufficiently explained as the rati:mat or determining 2(); in paragraph six and 40% in paragraph four and 502 in paragraph three 50% paragraph two and 70% paragraph one. The comments that 1 have been hearing from my constituency is rather we can double that, "where did these numbers come from", did they pick them out of the air? I cannot (since I have no knowledge of this I don't understand ) where they came from, how you derive them, what the rational is behind it and I'm perfectly willing to agree to specific goals, specific percent ages, but I think that the rational behind each of our proposals ourght to be fully expound- ed so that if someone does have a question they can go to the record and understand where we are coming from. Mr. Padgett: Ok, I think that's the point Mr. Lloyd is attempting to make and I'm inquired in my responses to you I'm attempting to do that. We have never discussed these things before so we never had a chance to fully expound it I don't think unless I'm mis- t aken. Major Gunn: I would like to see Mr. Padgett if you could use your resources in Washington now at this time to give us the available work force of the Latin community that are for police that are American citizens between 21 and 35 and the Black available f..rce work that are between 21 and 35 and the women available in the City of Miami that e between 21 and 35. Could you get your own phone and call Washington and get us this --.atistics to show us what the available work of Latin American young men and women in the ity of Miami exist betwen 21 and 35 that are American citizens. Mr, Padgett; Let me --- and 1 don't want to dispute you but the statistics aren't broken down like that. What they've done the department census puts them in gross statistic and that was the reason Mr. Lloyd is asking the inquiry that he's asking. The other thin; is I think that particular statistic for the police department in particular is irreverent because you don't ---the only criterial that you have asked that has irreverent to the recruiting or hiring requirements of the police department is American citisenship. major Gunn: Between 21 and i5. Mr. Lloyd: No sir. do sir. That the whole point of the situation with work force means those who are available and capable of working in that area in my opinion and 21 cued 35. This is exactly the point I'm addressing myself to in this figure these are just raw general figures to broad and to general. Now the Washington plan I was using that merely as an example. Me. Padgett: 1 understood that ---- 1 was trying to respond to that on that basis the point he's asking the statistics don't come broken out that way. I would think 20 OCT 3.1WWS that Miami Chamber. of Commerte or somebody vise would probably have that statistic. Mr. Lloyd: That's the very reason why I have suggested in our proposal that we have a change to get those statistics and present them to you with yout check as to the accuracy and officiant of the records. Before these goals percentage wise are establish because those figures as they ate now. You made a statement that sc'mebody said well they can show that In the work force with respect to the administration and the latin community they can show far more than 2nl fine. tf so then we'd be happy to hear about that. But I don't want to hear somebody's opinion t want a statistic. Major t;unn: Sir could I also a:;k this question? Could we have the resources of the Justice Department or the Census to obtain this information tor the City of Miami because we had been wanting this information for a long time. Can we use your available manpower and money in Washington. Can you initiate this program for us that would obtain us these statistic ? Mr. Padgett: I think you are tipping; it argumentative. Major Gunn: No sir. This is very serious. . Mr. Padgett: And I stated right off 1 said no the intormation doesn'tcome down broken out for the privilege ---- Major Gunn: Change of initial action that will cause it to be broken down that way. Mr. Padgett: Well I don't think so. Major Gunn: Well will you try? Mr. Padgett: The answer to that :s no. Ms. Anne Nicol: The point Mr. 1'aadgt:t is that we want to be fair . Mr. Padgett: What I tiugge t I think that probably the closest in ---- Ms. Anne Nicol: Yea. if :it; is too low we want it higher and if 2(r is too high we want it lower. Mr. Padgett: Major Gunn I Jo have a suggestion. Lawyers are always full of suggestions and answers, but I think the State Employment Service is where the Department of Labor and the Department of Census gets its work force statistics in terms of turn over people on layoff and people within ce.rtaain job catagories. I don't know if they have theta for police but if I were you I would use that as my starting point ok. Because the Depart- ment of Labor usually gets most of their's from individual State Employment Services. Major Conn: Well sir, the reason I asked this really because we made a sincere effort to contact the University of Miami at one time and asked them if they would do this for the City of Miami and they said they did not have the resources available to them to do this for us and I was hoping that with the vast money the Federal Government has that they would do this. Mr. Padgett: If I could ever get as hold of some of the vast money we order things. Major Gunn: in order through this can we give a realistic figure of what we have ailabie to us? Mr. Padgett: Dk. almost all that information comes from the states themselves. It's uniformally comes from the state and the State Employment Service is usually the in- take. If you can't get it there i would think the Miami Chamber of Commerce or groups chartered by them also attempts to obtain that information. That has been my experience. Anne Nicol: I just wanted to reiteriate that statement at the 20% or 30% or whatever percent it is. it's too low. The City would sincerely, its my opinion that the city would sincerely want it higher. but on the other hand if it is too high, we would like it lower, whatever the percent is and whatever the category is. Mr. Padgett: The other thing is in not relating to specifically that question but attempting to answer it and the question Mr. Lloyd asked. In attempting to set goals because it is a statistical calculation, We will never be precise. it's a very inpreciss order. Its. Anne Nicol: 1 appreciate that. Nr. Padgett: it's precise in general, but vary imprecise in expsssos wbos you get 21 OCT 3 • r the specifics. What you will have to do is make in many instances an educated guess. M. Anne titcoii Yes, I ;appreciate that Mr. Padgett but what I'm saying is that we would like to make the best guess and therefore perhaps blanket goals or the pet- centages which you have suggested may not he the hest quess. I don't mean it either wa•►, I'm making a statement. . It's my position that we want the best guess and not something that is arbitrary or something that someone made up without benefit or poor information rather than no information. Mr. Padgett: Ok. I accept that . That is valid principle. Mr. Bray: ye, let's see if we cat get out of the vacuum and here - if ----- enable to find the proper statistics in which to phase the numerical goals that are established in the c:atagories in the consent decree. I fully agree that we have enormous need of improving and refining and upgrading the kind of statistics that we have available in order to define our social and economic problem there is no question about that but I think that it behooves us at this point to start taking some of those guesses on the basis of available information that it is not the very best (at least ) is the information available. I think that if we keep on arguing around in circles we are going to find ourselves then in court having to defend the case and I don't think it is going to help anyone in here at all, so let's start going along in good faith with some of the numbers available. I think that it will be the best that we could do at the present time unless someone here has other figures. Now t agree with Mr. Padgett that there arc no breakdown's for instance, in terms of how many Cuban refugees have applied for citizenship and how long have they had to wpjt. This is information that I am very much anxious to get ahold of. We don't know how long the delays are after a person gets a resident, a visa to apply for citizenship. So, in here I don't think that we are talking about a question of short changing a population that is residing here in the City of Miami which needs services from very qualified police officers and I think that this is the kind of effort making that we have to make this to make sure that we are providing the best possible services to the population of the City of Miami with the best available qualified candidates that we can find in the City of Miami and this is what this whole thing is all about. I think that we would be remtssed of our repsonsibility if we begin to make the destinctions in here at this point with the availability of qualified candidates of latin background that start talking about how many citizens are the power up there in the public that need adequate services and for wham services must be provided by. Again I repeat that most qualified police officers, fire fighters and public servants that we can get. I think that is a respective of a paper that says citizensip. Because I think that we have enough citizens qualified of latin background for the job to begin with. Again sir, I think that what we are arguing about is to agree to some kind of numerical goal that will set the trend toward a greater number of latins and blacks, minorities, women in the police force, in the fire fighting department and in the entire City of Miami and then let's proceed in that good faith in trying to find that numerical goals that will be suitable or agreeable within the scope of reality in here rather than going academically and this rhetoric of the perfect information because perfect information does not exist. Major Gunn: I would like to respond just a little bit to that. We consider it blankly unfair to say that any kind of goals that we have to hire 50% of the police department of latin ancestry when there's not 50% of the work force available to us to obtain and when you say --if you demand 50% of latin. You demand 20 some odd percent black, this is completely unfair if that's not what's in the work force for us to obtain so I think that it would be ----- to some up with some realistic numbers rather then ,ust use the numbers of people that are of latin ascent in the City of Miami and the olicks that are here----- It's unrealistic for us to say -ptck out SOX latin officers ohms there is not 50% available. Mr. Lloyds At this time we will take a fifteen or twenty minute recess. Everybody is now adjorned. There will be a Special Commission Meeting on Wednesday, beginning at l0s04 A.M. to discuss for discussion of the setters which we have discussed here. THE MEETING WAS AUJOHNE!) AT 3:00 P.M. EST; H. O. SOUTHERN 22 OCT 3• In