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HomeMy WebLinkAboutCC 1975-10-02 MinutesCITY of MIAMI COMMISSION MINUTES OP MEETING HELD ON October 2, 1975 PREPARED SY THE OPPICE OP THE CITY CLERK CITY HALL 'It . .• .1 • - 114i 4 • • 1)L,Ptit)..C4.Tifitr): HATED '.-1[ATC...) 1:WArVPY TJLPA1TPENT CITY qi or4 i '\;41./ ) i; ) TtYpvn-.Fnr.JtPALY.Eli 4A,1!Es04 ,, • N'EAr-0.1'?Y DEPART"rit: 11AR1E JAVIS ME CITY ,-)F, p'.44 (..ROUCA ,%.,',.J:T1 , .'f..P4E.SLWATIVLS DE SEVF:RAL oRGAWZATIONS A:4D I% AiTEND7,%CL, mr. and d.:,htleMon, so that we may be perfectly clear as to our purpose ,of these meetings are t.o deterMine two things, firtt w r 14#,W1)1 ontez into a Consent Decree which, of course, is subectt )v.41 ot the City Commission and (2) what the terms of the cons,r0 wLil Thero have been for public consumption now copies of plu!..; copies of some other 17roposals made by the Law DA_1)artm,-- :!! how available at the Clerk's Office. If the additional copl, ::lets Are not yot available they will be shortly. Out for mor.. .h- ylrtieF, -ininterests last night I believe that copies of the r•w-ro iistributed. Now, with that in mind we shall begin and lartros (lid not get a copy of the Consent Decree until crary, did you get a copy of the Consent Decree !!!-. t , :, r. If before we begin to discuss the various portions AS we proposed to do are there any questions about a...„ • wl r In the decree by various representatives of the ;. that is employee groups? If you will stand up and we Al. g,)1N1 tc' speak and then if you will announce your A 470 • : ill I will appreciate it. Mr. Mc Crary, Mr. Naples, m,.J. ut! —..("rary. jc ahead please. Mr. •tary: ,Jessie Mc Crary, 3000 Building, Biscayne Boulevard. Gentle - me%, 4r to these proceedings now and request that we assemble the , i% thc ?rounds that at the last City Commission Meeting the City qlr-,:!e;_i the city Manager that he turn over to me any and all documents thJ..t nithive 1A-c,!1 in Wushington as the result of a visit by the city coupled witA a 111,1!. is of what transpired at that meeting. That was indicated at the cnmm1101. Ating that 411 interested parties would have access to that informat- - we NC' haV(.2 access to that information and I'm just going to protect... Mt. :uitte Crary. 1 thought you got that. Mr. M 'r-at'ti Mr. 1.loyd, I did not get that. I assume Mr. Southern is handing it unfair for any interested group because it was supposed .we're coming here today to discuss a Consent Decree , , p,;r1i,:i he the ,co-defendants or be they just interested parties w1,met.h:•:g to t10...tho same opportunity that the city has had to talk to the r tc what has taken place in Washington. you haven't gotten it I have to apologize because as far as my •!oncorned it was ready for you yesterday as you know I discussed with y,,i4 • t.,.optione. 1 thought Mr. Davis was going to pick up • copy. That's ! Y04 did clet a copy of the decree. I assumed that you also got 4 copy )t • • •153 4s. Mr. ,4( t.l..try: No, 11 not....profosed Consent Decree and the City has had soma input In'o it thu?. ol)ce again we're talking about being unfair to the participants. : ct,414r. thf- siolit4tion people have had any input in this and we discussed with th,vire m.:Yoi (mid the Mayor 0 the City Commission Meeting that the p0:11000 was t, give evorYVody a chance to have their input into it because if we do not do that qc)ilq to be 4commplished. Mr. TLis i what i thought the meetings were supposed to be because we could do th;if. finished rimming off copies of this thing. What is your 5110!, 4: t 1. m tor tiwri? OCT 2 -19 r Mr, `t-• t°r,,r',: My v'1:;f T ; `•.atr'1 at the City Commission Meetitti that all inter-. r*Rtt d T art 1 • :; t- i'. ivi tics the a13st Te people here area to sit down and say we can ,T 't' ' !t! i 1' 1 1 "it whatever those items art'. And then We r'.ctn tnrlve o tl wh, r w' i:' i t. vireo becau:'r' What w[''te gc in`i to do today I assure ; • 't• i ..i:. , t it hr.rr, and talk ;about ...and voinq to leave hear with :l.,tt;i:... ;•:• 't. 1 •. 1 ' ) a. ,�',:n;>i i;;h i+: t'-,d:3y. Mr. L ; , I , an't ra-det the City* CoMfili';l;l')n into session. Alt. P.• ,i. ?' ui!1ir.'r t<, .Tit the Mayor: I'M wi11ino to .all ,ill of them Mr. Y ' wj ni't tor rtit` by Monday and I don't know if the °tht't inter.':: • !T '1,_ h.1 Monday... Mt. ..r Sanit with -t—,., . . t•' Mr 11 i •")tt ; tt . i,•ilrl. wr. hi; ,nythint before you. As a matter of fact.,... .I'. did not have something in their hands, if the • t; , �'c ; t ; if didn't have it the city has not complied ,',-mmission and I don't think it is going to be fair ht're who are concerned that we start negotiating -ven know what the fathers have done. .w t' xL rt .., this;. The city fathers which is the City Commis- ' ", i, is t: !i:;i T'::: at all in regards to this Consent Decree. There )n !', h.' 'ity Commission. take- , t y L..'1'4 U' • ' T 1 . ni«••:t i:)T. is has the city administration taken some •0 .r < t„ what it is doing to present to Justice one )171e , r)posalu which we have just distributed this `• • ' :: i-r •1.are•i which are simply for discussion purposes i ;T i:• far ,is I'm concerned no absolute position thins in her are for discussion. That's what And it was my understanding that we would That is the way the City Commission wished and that's : :; , -' 1 1 i,, t,l quiet for a minute. Mr. :.I ::,r, 1> ':.1..a s the manner of our proceding here will satisfy your •iou: ' t ?u ,t t' r I think 'r. Naples is next. 'II. r ,:• 2c)ur.;o, I expressed very similar objections to what happened ,'ytt r3•,•,, in! Mi . M.. ,_Cary wasn't here was the fact that we had this Consent Decree t;:Tt. h4 11 ;:. !`..' 1 y':s l)osession for X number of days and we hadr't been privy t :) it.. An! t h.'r, :: re, atleast yesterday we didn't even have the document before is .it ' Mt . sure if we really had enough tine to read and digest it .:T.: ,. s, i t - v, r night. You asked us if there were any questions of our :-- v41;. t' ,n •,::'i -, rt.ai::1y we have some questions. As Mr. Mc Crary stated we will l roba2>'. y 1• t:r, through those things all day long. I'm not sure that we can r,;no • ,r. ..:i. :1 !.t with the amount of time that we've had given to us. Mr. :.1 .4t•1T itt. 1 t:. 1 an opportunity to review the Consent Decree last night tT: i r , ► letter 1 received from on July lithe 1975 in which he if: i. .. ,•. t!1. I'r'ttr•r::al Order of Police would be an appropriate party .... ', r' that w•3:; entered into by the city and I cannot help but agree ! :, r ; ! 1. jI' 1! tr:t' .: i ty .i i d go to Washington and did discuss the Consent Decree in the ti' •w document has a date of 9/17/75 and the old one Was.. in August. Fsu' : • , I ' :•.mot.... , t brill we wore not given an opportunity to have any input what- ! : t the • r' •v; ion .) s the Consent Decree. I would be very concerned as to i nt': ,arrivi ni at the..Consent Decree. The document that I was handed ,• . r a i ; , t r . 1. _ : + on the meeting in Washington as of October 1 only has one T ,, i 1 i T;•1 i rt tit whi'-h requires a lot of speculation. And that is if I just read It. ' , you, "The 1r:;t..ice v'.'partment: and the Treasury Department were ra+quested to ,1t•;. ; ; s'„Ta.it i,;n t. , the ity concerning the areas in which the department felt 1 t y w t1. ,1 not ► t ci r e . " flow 1 submit to you that I have not received that 411,1 wr'',. Choi:..1 tc h':re now we're going to came here now. The city has mar- .1'•it14111: jl,oT: 'ir'r,;Ut y, on J.D. awl we haven't got the.... And if you do have it 2 OCT 2 5 • 1 st ! :1 1ill •I t it .,t' 1 t I t ;$.11St`ttt t•, tst !-1 h Vtsl y bete and especially foe the lsolic.e a: 1 t itt u you hive !..-.peeial pension plans. 1 think that there is ;). a impa.' when you're going to have a lot Of retoveMent Within th, !•,• tt(tWi,q1 f f the seniority that they've already acquired in t lit t .n the impathe funds available in those Pension riAL,:. : 'hat as fat as thr seniority and lateral ,Vpit 1"y lna" the •1#y perhavl assign a task fotce ....pension plan to • • •:11.1t A i ' 1. Yot. "his tnlly •.7.1ear; I thought Imade it perfectly ,1 #114 moeting anl L:lear up any misunderstandings: there s, ty-, by anyb,Ay at this moment, That 1 want to make aLuhd.c,•ly 1-ar. A.1 a proposal. That's all, submitted by the • , :Jt,1 )v.? you all added gotfte proposals which are submitted by 1- 1,1w ..i.trtro :1:,t been prepared and which people received this y will notie inherent. in the portions of the "Fa its Purposes Only". We are in a position Wiii un,-irstand - one party makes a proposal and another part rike: , ,,nt.• i,rol-••;.al. This is where we are at. There is nothing final. Th. U4nqqi to. Nobody in the administration in the ity,ti ..i.t't,h(rity to agree to anything without the approval if nh.• '•t./ •orl:•11;:•1 ThosAt'i, what we're here this morning to do is to attempt to ani •;.,me input t-,r the City Commission on which the City je'-rmination. But at this moment nothing is final. All w.• 1.iv, a!, t .-ourse, if there are people here this morning tat 1think that' what we're here for. M. n AA A .. ,x, A - m, lease. That's precisely the problem we're • • •. :ailment has put together soMe kind of proposals. Mr. I 11. :• •: w...ve got riiemon, we've got F.(...).P. We don't A : aoinvj on. You have put together a proposal that 1.. • ix.- ,t:i;n4 that you've had an opportunity to scrutinize an.1 ! , here who have not had the first opportunity MI. * I give a proposal to anybody when 1 .imply 1 1° my astal 1 write them down? Mr. • MI we wele ieguest ng atthe last time was.... • tint:_,•,,t wrtt nn4 them down yesterday. Mr. !•1 1::: .in. . Ail I'm saying is Mr. Lloyd, the City Attorney's Office is;• t..-:uch with the various partis who were concerned and let us „I •e•not talking about a one sided thing. We're talking -• .).'..ATt where all parties affected should have some input into it. • • . ,A1,e other lawyers but I didn't have anything to do with 1, 41:,1 : here this morning unprepared to even discuss that decree :sr t•s, prop•oJal. Mt. , at :,,,:u'rk? unprepared say at the time... • : ••%1,:.-p4/,o! I don't know if anybody else in here is prepared... . ne who knows what is in your proposal. We have no idea, you gotten them.' :•*3 . ..! mi. they't. available. Mr. Clerk, can Mr. Mc Crary get our proposals wt1,11 ;I:vf pro! the Consent Decrees. copies oC the proposal are available .;“• t4c • Office for anyone who wants them. • •%!),, Wi.°11 wait until people get copies. Are there any tui,j„! 4t this tutu: bc ore we begin to discuss the matter? 3 OCT • 197't Mr. i Y.-, S.... 7,loyA, I have oMething that 1 think really needs to r;uea,...t that heeds to be cleared up is precisely whor -! 1.i... th .Ath-tity .Anclude With the iustiee Department What lei ,? whit ,heuld le -et fnrth if adopted in a Consent Decree? nt; •t r, in i7ininn that hi::01 nn the Charter of the City of MiaMi .1!1 rvi 0 A,-)tfi nf the Miaftu is charged with that responsibil- ity. Now l r. iiize 'flit in the pas* few we,ks much discussion has ocrured with aati .', 1,4 !! rts tole and what the coMMission will ' and t- the body assembled here that it is the rol. atl is eharaet under the Chartef of the City of Miami • t.-tf117. tint,• that Ofoul 1 he in a c'onserit Decree. I further submit tn. you, M!. 'Lv .:inn's 1110 would be to fund any necessary eillpend- t:Lit m iv ,: or el ., the iosult of anything that Might be contained in 4 ' 41 ! he -at ryinr cait nf What is adopted. 1 do not in 1T1 y T.. r - I-n may not be iefreeable with what may evolve in the forM -f , 1:1,1 1 ]:; net !;omething that is a,:.coptable that has been worrn ! !rnvi!sion thrnulh the authoril'y of the board being provided r al t!,at time the ComMission may find reason to call the I. . • . • n 1,A7:.owledain a :Tir-qmstance that should have been given a r.; • • - 1,1 r tx. i if env assumptions and what 1 have submitted • -ur •.,te 7:ualest that there are two board members rresent h,r. • ay -houi I have at this table. Realizing that all things thif wi:: t,' ;ti i • r *,iv by wh,,mever may he concerned whether it is An employee -qqani; 7.•,H ,.1t ,;roup ot an individual or an elected official ! tIA" :A.,)1 V' 1 l the diseassions and the formulation of proposals tna._ neuoti tin and should make the determination as to what • -7, h. !!: that Consent Decree for ratifiration by the coffelissioti a!A ! 1r,:17 7 f1h.1 0,:k you tn rule on what 1 have submitted and in the - 'h it what I have f.:tied is true 1 suggest that the two board 4 ,r.h i 1 et them participate in 1 isteninq to, although *Le.; : . , : tnink their place is at this tablo. Mr. ;i tn, are there two board members here':' wirth t,,) be seated up here? M! . ! • FA. my name is Jaremko but I don't think you've k!!. 1,1 oy Whd..thpr we sit here or there it is who should t autn.lrity and I would respectfully disagree with the . • !• r • h rter that it falls under the purview of the Civil ▪ J, i'm of 111 of the provisions in the Charter and all ot the vari, ahl duties. All of that will be taken into consideration in t!..(.. an.i the .ignina of the proposal. You can be fully aware of !)..! . t.) s:liqcst a ehrig0 in the toremat as Judge Mc Crary said. 1ef•,re we can negotiate we have to know what is in the Consent Decree • tn-n the organizati.ans hammer out their policy and then those two organ- 0u._ the final policy. I don't see how anything can be accomplished mi. I can tell you what can be accomplished and what must be !,:Aay Ind that is at least we can give information as to what in in .h- and then it is ap to the various organizations and the commis- 14'.4.t7.4%.' whether or not they can agree on those things. If it isn't fi7(;mPlisht-AC 1 cif% 7,r1 that as Mr. Padgett has informed se that the Justice Depar•ireht. t..tke priate ar.tion. !tr. • L.1,.yJ, if I might i'd like to address two questions to Mr. Padgett. Mf. 14,1 ir yc:ur impression when you met with the city in Washington 4ed they r-t,.!!1-1 with the Consent Der:ree that was dated the Septeaber tSth that this Consent Ave been maJe ,ivailble to all interested parties at that time so that thky here to lis.!usS it today and if not do you think that the period of .ime ,-yve h.4.1 to ,Tportunity to look 4t this thing is 4 reasonable period? mt. ; that is An unfair question of M. Padgett but... • calle't! :4111 ,Witoc ate the question but I really don't have tug, basis tr;! ,/:yt„,,tin,1 that ilestiun. 00 1 stated yesterday it W-3 my understanding when th., ,lry in VritrincitOti it W44 'wore to, if you recall when we were here Wt 'a 'Et(F. W.; to b4-4 provided additional information. Ok, we had 4 IrliAber ,,n!, )11, .rn ig what s are of the intovulaton meant in terns of; some or it w. 11 fe!ront t-,4-41,141 than had received it before and there were some .eddit- fh,f.,fs involvod in is. Also there were se questions the city had about the 4 OCT -197 c,; I•'+ 1 ated to that We said that what we have is We have at*, , w , art,} ' 1 t red :r'r,t l kindtl of concerns we said we'll incorporate thorn i rtt : ► . •r.• >r,t ;,, T f , , up ittte it acid send it to you, That's the total► 1 * y r' gut lt,.i. r . t andi na unless r'!;s Mt. Lloyd feels hecessaty to t tweet. Me that w., , t !,, t : ? 1 t •: _it i t . You knew I didn't, or I negotiating or behalf MI the at,vr rnr.•.:.' 1 i :t ' t i •l i i _ .ht t to the city one way or the other. what Should be neve car h i', :'t`.t, with the cense'nt Order, t-he proposed Cnhseht Order. Mt. .tar• tv: : w,: I i , t„):se i, you were here l.ant when that was discussed and the Mayra mot! k• wr, t ' you .hat he had every intention of having all interestel parties t, . ,:..:it' 3 it ih ; thin:, an,i that's why I ask the question, if it was your itc{ t, qi-,rh ti, t when they returned with that decree in hand that they were to that we could collie forth today and discuss it. Mr. I .iLii, t t : ,1. I :::t;t , the .-ally tint I can respond to that is my understand- ithU wher, w• a' r cart.' la,tc-rt, the City clerk was going to act as a repository of the in:, r:'.at ,,.:: i+:. wa- relritr' 1 to this particular matter. Mr. r 11 ,•t`r :1,at • MI. ''.:i:.,, it was supposed to be available in the City Clerk's them. Are there any further questions at this time ,)r r 'r;,:r ft:: wi 11 attempt to take up certain general provisions ref this —iT )t 1 tire: )y;oi; to all parties so that you will know I intend ii ►tt tr) you the areas in the decree where as City Attorney I would recommend �mmen.: • t.0 City ''ommi s_,i on their adoption and then you folks can take it from they. . , yr yt:,)-iy have •my particular... Everybody has the decree that :,t't• 1 it, • i,.,' , ,r r, •t Al 1 ritaht . I. the Anti -Defamation here? I have a note that the.: w 1 :'.i' to ,+yet' . They faro welcorte, of course. Apparently they are not here yet. . '•11. '; ;. ,�:�:1,: �'. i I. r :},iwkin<;, : it izt'n. Yesterday I think I heard, and if 'm wr, ,.h ; : ' : t ••r Mr. Padgett tfl correct me, that this hearing is the after- r;at:; w; t :hl:. • l .- :ht y structure :seen that the Justice Department was • i:,, with the thing that we are here to discuss. Am I correct? ui ;'.e. my under:ftandiny. MI. W.' a 3 !hat' the way I left here with it. and I was quite concerned tip, 1 t 1:.. , ,: Miami ,re cozivt:`rn''d. The same thing as the gentleman, ev,,ryoy:e it 'ure mt' has :.11:J it is time for the City of Miami to get off the pot. Now I --t,., h. re wiser" y •u say Af t: irmativc' Action. Yesterday I heard Miss Nicol st an i i. r ' ,;, i ? I. is ,w humiliating it was to even approach division heads and ask for h::t : tiat:on that she needs with which to do her job. Mr. arc;,.'t tr: Jut au ;'m with you, can you indicate which page you're on? Mr. Nawkir: ;: c t:.At'DIBIX) Yesterday Miss Nicol got up and said that she was :;•.:.i ; :,, i ::C':: lu:. t il:. c u1d not possibly yet the material that is needed for her to iet the ml!_erial to you that you request. Affirmative Action, there's tur.� hoar:. about At firmative Action. All it has to do is for somebody to ;c m 1-4c::y la and tlel them sit down, this is what we want done. If you • io It we'll ,et somebody that can. Now in here it says that in 5 years we at,, irl,:y t,, :see that these goals are met. We have a Consent Decree in the ,'at;e dt t;.`. versu:_ the City or Miami. They were given 5 years in which to ,ri t y members of the Police Department, preferably blacks up to the r ei ri•:;,':.::at ior: of the city's population." Now here I have another thing 'hat— t , • : r: five ry see years they're going to do it. So what is it, in in, r tt.^.:.:it .: ;t w€ will Nt ce meat you off and just stand you off? Are you just ,;,,,,f, t i, st thy 5 years that the court has already ordered see to do I'll do this wl t r:l years, Mr. Lloyd? Are we saying that this is 5 more years that we're going to t ,i lk auto what we already have? Is this what we're saying? Pr. I.oy .. s is a decree separate and apart from the Cohen Case. Mr. : J4wk z rl:a ; :'u what tills says then is take 10 years for the City of Miami.... any tither way you • .i:: interpret . Mr. ',I,,ya a No, sir. It says 5 years from the date of the entry of this decree . what. it. wi11 het. :III ,.,wic i t,s : Uk, ,(7) the 5 years t hat the Consent Decree that you have already fresh, the iu i.;t• rs.ryi ny that you have 5 years in which to bring those people, what ire WO g0int1 to do with that? OCT2 19 5 Mr. tau",k: '•,t. Lloyd, than 1 testond to that briefly? to tht' suit that y('uit'' r111'adi.r:•l , Mr, Dawkins, thete ,it.' no gltt)t.ttl. 1`ht`tt' ,at"(' :i1't','ifir• titi.tl; and it drai l'f iTM:.sr i :_. wile black i!:::«tar as tht' hirin.i •tlt.houtth tht'tt• is .t •13ru:;r• th.1' +f , ;r t ill other. ethnic rltoups ': tt' and achieve that ';oil tit bal.t,we over th,.., year ;-rr i;r'. It is tot absolutely rt•.luirt•i but :het t.iinly the ,•it',. YI:..'ieL ' m.1k• • .'r;i effort in a('cott'l.'lishinu it. to the writing c'f that ("tin_t•:it Pect•ee t h 1t how i:; an order of the mutt at; I uhlerstand it no one took into tone sitierat_i+on •lu trtriti<,n rate when these kinds of things were under cc!t:;iiet,ttion and it i = i r t i;tl ] ,' im1'r..:;:;ib1.r in 5 years to come up with the goals that are ident.i lied in the i'. hen lr c i':i,'n. It cannot be accomplished for police officer. Mt. n•twkii:. : h yea, hell it can't. I can be dons:.' You s't this is my part of C.e ar sum..•:. r. • . N,..w In years the Civi 1 Service Board or whot'ver is responsible f ;r r•''•r'it t : ;l t h,:; 'i+)• met with a Consent Decree that was ordered by a judge but yet -i:'it t -i 1 i toil me in t more years were going t.() rectify what we didn't tet:tifp' i:: the first five years. Now, you say attrition. I didn't 5a anything ' y y g aLu '.ir a• t r i t iLi . This is what Affirmative Action is :supposed to be, attrition. F:i•rht n'« ',t-,irtg about the incident we're talking about, the black policemen wh.. t, t h. t• w s;; handed down there were something like 81 policemen, black were .;uppo ed to bring that up to an X number. Since that time lal tck 1 >1 :u n !save 1)eon fired, have quit, have retired, etc and they have not ret l.a• ,•^.t rz,,'r., wlyl,re is your attrition there? • ..,'ilk : .ti!: ,t _ „a ;ay is true. ;hems have been some that have left. 'There b, • :, ethers; who have left and they have been replaced. Blacks have • , m1 ' r.•••,i, Latins have been employed and Anglo Saxons have been employed ant.: :I ^;t;. w',:,.'t in t'ah of those respective ethnic groups. !its. all I'm saying is the black people as the minority are sick and • i ; i ::miseL;. We will not accept no five years in here and I hope when r; ;y this :;1 •'ak i.ng for the majority of the black people in the citizenry. ' i ::k the Cubans are going to stand by, the Latins. So what I'm say:,::: i • :.: !ivy years has to be cut to two. Two is about all that would be •:1_•-.-•; ' .iT other t hi no I have to say is yesterday someone said quote, the ".a; r 1a•, .};.at he has been put on notice that numerous outfit;:, groups t': 1' . , .r•' , o.ni •.o .curt if quotas and other things aro established. .,! ! at you, be my guest. I've been in court all of my adult life F r.•:• f:.. : .r tin.;`s that I felt was right and things that the constitution say are init.'•.AL./body t'1: •' want to come to bat come up and take your swing. 'emit l > i to come to bat as well as I am. All I'm saying to the Justice :),•] •ir•mt'r;t. 1 that the laws are implemented and carried out and let anybody ;' t:; ..?urt• and join us who wane, to. :•tr. L1o';rd: Lei m«' make this brief statement and then I would appreciate it if • ra:'lc•t. t would amplify it. We must come to grips very shortly with some of involved. Otherwise as I can assure you we can expect an action it law IL • tit' 1 ederal court by the Justice Department. Do you have anythinr3 f•ur tia.•t •,. :., . on that, Air. Fadgett? mr . 1 a,1u•.t • : : ust want to say that what Mr. Lloyd says is accurate. It is l c i•- : y :r nt i oti to by the time we leave here have something resolved one her. I mean that. I'm saying that as straight forward and honestly • •' vc jot to make some progress, we've got to mnaket some progress on ••;;.ra i::- Ies . By hard issues I mean things like say rectifying certain things that ,.— i,it'i,t ifi.•d in the Civil Service Board does, the thins that we identi- ie t h,e• qual s and the timetables, issues concerning back pay, issues involving r T r ; , :.•i'art:.ment snd the other departments we have addressed here. And I'm it we don't ;st down to business that the City of Miaami is going to be in {=o'n t t.ti'•r it want to or not. We are under certain constraints too and I ►:• •. , • t •,tr :.a t :tat .ind maybe it isn't cowing out clear but something has to be done very vet.: i -•k ly. And it isn't, unless you measure us by results we aro shadow l'oxi t;+t l i'lht ::.)w in terms of people taking positions or people questioning the m;;t i',•+•. r` ;a +,i:l•' involVOt3. So I think it may be best that we get started with w1•at w 't. ; .,,. +,r wt" may all, I include the government, suffer as the consequence. Mt. 1..iw�. 1:,::: , ik, •a 1untt t 1i.' lines, where Can I get a copy of the thing that the .!,Lit. i . ;i. fe ar t ci. r>t tOld the city of Miami that should be corrected?..... tt:. ► ., i ;,.. , : A.t . ;iawkit+:., .:an I clarify? In the Consent Decree, the Consent ;" :t• ., tool by whi:•h we attempt to resolve problems. Ok? A lot of the things t t►.,t_ ,t., • i ti the Consent Decree are very very conceptionable. They take tailor- 4r0 4r1,i ':,.,t kind ;.t - they take a certain amount of tailoring and that is hopefully who we .tr• (;+,,iny to tare .4 Io to do. You know it the city wants something with more :1,.•• ifs _sty wrr'rt' willitiy to do that. ...and there certain things that we want 6 OCT 2.197 tailored an.f that's what we're atte1at my to have to Isk questions about it at this atJ but ri;l;t now I can't help that. Ok? more by the results or from the feed back ate involved in this. Ok: to do. So for :us to :; i t or for yr u time you're. probably ,it ,t li oaaeant- And that's the mason I :say Measure you ttet from the v,trioo; people who Mt. Lloyd: Now then, in the light of that if everyone will turn to Pale of the proposal by the Justice DepartJI nt recognizing that on page 1 and 'he tir!It at the top of page : are ,imply the preliminary statements ah i you will hot i t:e that whrrr' it says it i:; therefore ordered ajudged and decreed as follow;;:.... Mr. Padgett: Can I say one thing, Mr. Lloyd? Mr. had:let t: Can I say ono thing, Mr. Lloyd? It may make it easier to under- stand what i.:, going on here if you look at the docuMent you have. I think it all has kind of underlining and bracts. Ok. The underlines in the bracts means you know some things and somewhat in the underlines say for eexalttppie on page 2 in paragraph 1 is the language that you will notice in the very first copy of they Consent ae:ree that we sent to the city. What has happened is the city has eeveral questions about that. They at this time have seen objections for having that patticular language in there. We have stated that we think that language is necessary. So what it means is we can't agree on that phrase. Down in para- graph c:onuf ruing recruitments the brackets indicate that there was language we initially had the •:::ity wanted in that pat.icular instance, the city wanted that language included. And it continues in that manner. Ok? On page 3 there are brackets wherein the city wanted certain language included. If you have quest- ions as to who proposed it or something of that nature we'd be happy to answer it but what it means; those brackets mean that there is clearly some kind of prob- lem on somebody's side or one half of the negotiating teats. And where you see something that says open that clearly means that it is open. It is either lang- uage suggested by the Department of Justice of possibly some language suggested by the City of Miami. If you look in there at the underlining on the back you will sec just about the whole thing is open and what I'm saying is we've got to get a whole lot •:loser much much quicker. I mean very very quickly. Mr. Lloyd: All right. Paragraph 1 is a general paragraph and the only question on behalf of t e _ity that I have as a lawyer on behalf of the city with the underlined phrase, and i.t me begin by readings The defendant, City of Miami's officials, agents and employees (and here is the underlined part) and all persons in active concert or participation with theta in the performance of city functions. Now let me explain what our question was on that. We accept that the city or the City commission could not agree in a Consent Decree with respect to the possible actions of someone else. That's our question on that one. The rest of the para- graph I would recommend to the adoption of the City Commission with the exception of that question which I asked. Mr. Padgett: Ok, and let me respond to that... We think that language is necessary and I think there is an example why it is necessary that just happened this morning. Mr. 3aremko and Mr. baulk, you know there is actually a question as to who the city or who they feel is responsible for the enforcement of this matter. If there is a question, and so what we're trying to do is include everybody who is responsible i_r •he operation of the city. And that becomes a very very crucial point when v rc attempting; if something goes wrong attempting to establish who is exactly responsible. If the city comes back and says they didn't so they're not responsible we lon't necessarily want to have to be put in that position to re- establish who 73 totally responsible for... dr. Lloyd: 1'ir. wondering, Mr. Padgett, if you people in the audience will excuse me, there is a possibility of misunderstanding on my part. If I would like to review this and let me throw this suggestion out and that language on the lasis that now it appeass to be my understanding that you're not referring to people who are not dire,:f.1y concerned with city functions. You're talking about actually city officials and people of that nature. Mr. Fadgett: city officials, city boards and even in certain situations because what we ary dealing with here is personnel functions primarily. It may even in- volve a person who has say the title of a foreman or the title of a supervisor who has the ,: ryorate authority for the city in their official capacity. Mr. Lloyd: Yt, well that would be covered by agents, officials and employees too. Mr. Padgett: might. Mr. Lloyds A11 rifjht:, well then there is a possibility then that we can eitltt r �' OCT 2. resolve that question or rework that. Now are theta any (rie .t ions by anybody on paragraph 1? I believe this gentleman in the blue suit first and then Mr. Williams nest. Would you come up to the Microphone and announce your... Mr. Rudolfo Morell My name is Rodolfa Morell Mr. Lloyd: Now are you with the city in any respect or.... Mr. R. Morelli 140, I'm not, I'm a citizen. Mt. Lloydt Well, sir, qo ahead and ask your question but. I think if we,make your question brief because we had hoped at the beginning at least tr restrict this part of this to the various city groups or officials... Mt. R. Morrell: tt is very brief, the question is very brief. In the underlined parts does that include the Civil Service board or is it inclui..d under officials and employees? Mr. Padgett: That was what my response was directly related to is there has got to be a clear understanding that everybody who holds a responsible position in the city is responsible for what goes on in here. Mr. Lloyd: 1 would actually be willing to accept, recommend that definition .is tar as that because my question was concerned with groups over which we had no authority to agree for and of course our agreement would be i'aoed on, if there is any conflict in any areas with respect to our Charter provi,;ions well then we can take that up as we get to it. So we'll hold that open and I would like to review that. Mr. Williams. Mr. Frank Williams: Frank Williams, G.E.A. Does this include contractors that are involved with city work, this underlined portion? Mr. Lloyd: No. It could not in my opinion include them directly. Now the only way in which that would be included is what we're doing. The answer to your quest- ion is no, it does not. However, I might make this statement that, of course, there is now a clause ir, our city contract with contractors that they will not refuse to engage any persons solely on the basis of race, sex, national origin, etc. Mr. Williams: Can I go to another point in this paragraph? The gentleman that spoke on the Cohen case and the gentleman that preceded me used a word and qo down to individuals, race, sex and national origin - both of them used the word citizen. From what I read in this the federal government seems to have taken some position against citizenship in the Consent Decree. I think that`4 what they've done. National origin, are you talking about citizenship when you say this? Mr. Padgett: I'm not sure I really kind of understood the question. Are you asking, sir, can non -citizens be employed by the city or are you saying? Mr. Williams: Well, we haven't addressed ourselves to citizenship in this Consent Decree. We say national origin. Now are we saying that citizenship is not import- ant anymore? I notice that the gentleman that spoke on the Cohen caseproudly said it and this gentleman said it. He said citizen and it seems to be important to the public that there is no reference to citizenship in hiring and when they say national origin it seems like they've thrown citizenship out of the picture. Mr. Padgett: Your question has a double meaning if I understand it correctly and I think maybe you'd better address the city. The city has already taken a position in terms of employment and you're not required necessarily to be a citizen to be employed by the City of Miami except in certain positions and that's the position that . ?e Mr. Lloyd: I :An answer that, Mr. Williams. the answer is no in my opinion for this reason that the provision in our Civil Service Rules requiring citizenship has already been declared invalid by a federal court of competent jurisdiction with the exception of areas where state statutes are involved which will be covered further in this decree. Mr. Williams: It will be then, citisenship. Mr. Lloydt Yes, sir, but solely with respect to police and fire where there is a state statute. This actually was done lag before the Justice Department got Into the picture with relationship to a Consent Decree. We are just basically in this first paragraph we are going by the terms of the federal statutes and the law at enunciated by the Supreme Court. OCT 2.197 Mr. Militarist Well then nition.il origin... Mt. Lloyd: No, sir, it does not. Miss Aisne Nicol: Anne Nicol, Affirmative Action Cootlinator f May I ask why in this paragraph the words age, marital statue ...able to perfotin the job provisions. I'm askinq why the pi,/ and physical handicap with the appropriate 8.r.o.Q. and able t perfore the job provisos out in where they belong hav this paragraph because we do have as I understand it a federal not to disctiMinate because of Age, Marital Status of Physical wanted to know why they were left out. of i71tr of Miami. and l hysisa] handiea'. le iew, marital status e pr slide the, to e S • n emitted from mendate that we are H.uulicap and i lust Linda Jamiteson: I can anger that. I think that. Squire l+ruhab i r t ouehed en that yesterday when the question as to why physical handicap problem.. aro not covered. It is priMarily because the Justice Department does not have authority to enforce the statutes that deal with those matters. The Health, Education and Welfare deals With the vocational rehabilitation acts. The Department of Labor has responsibil- ity for age discrimination in employment.. The$ee are matters that are net for that reason appropriate for us to bring up and to put in. If you want to inelude them... Miss Nicol; I just make a point. I just make a point that I personally feel that age, Marital statue and physical handicaps are important provisos in any kind of Consent Decree and if in using a little bit of logic and common sense that if we can include them now we can avoid the same type of negotiations with the other agencies, the other compliance agencies which may have a very definite concern. So I would like to suggest that whomever will make they decision would consider adding these three - age, marital status and physical handicap with the, not being a lawyer I don't know where the R.P.O.Q.'s and the able to perfrrm thr job go but you know that's stuck in there. Miss Jamieson: All I suggest is that if you would like to propes.' language to that affect to be included we have no objections but we just don't have authority to raise those and to require that they be included Miss Nicol: Mr. Lloyd, what do you think? Mr. Lloyd: I frankly don't think it is personally necessary beeauee one, in the first place there is the Dade County ordinance in addition to the other federal statutes which N.E.W. enforces comes into being which requires those types of things and which I believe attempts are being made to comply with. I don't know that we're not in compliance at this time with respect to the state statutes, rather to the Dade County Ordinance. I also would say this, there is no reason at all why we can't go beyond the terms of the Consent Decree in all good will and ernest. Miss Nicol: Well, I'd like to see the good will ane ernest in black see white. That is a personal opinion. Mr. Lloyd: This gentleman is next. Do you have something to say with respect to this paragraph? Mt. James Cu*: Yes, stir, I do. James Cox, president of P.B.A. I'd like to ask the board this. I read this first paragraph and I would wonder why it was even there because it states that no employee shall be discriminated against because of race, sex, or national origin which sounds great but to me as I read the rest of this Consent Decree this is what it is all about - we will discriminate because of race, and creed and national origin. Isn't that correct or ais I reading this wrong? Isn't that what thin says, we will not discriminate against; further back it says you will discriminate and you will give priority to blacks, Latins and women? Mr. Padgett: Are you asking me? Mr. Cox; Yes, sir, I 36. Ng, Padgett: You misunderstand it then. I think that if you reed the document you will understand what we're saying... I'll have to go into the history of it. It is simply this. We have evidence that we think...proof in court that we can prove that the city has been discriminating against blacks, Latins and females. Now what the law requires is that certain kinds of remedial actions be taken for this period of time that they would be involved in a court order or a judgement of this nature . The Law requires there be some additional remedial action be taken to insure that this discrimination does not continue and that you end it asa OCT 4J1 it hae in the past. To that extent., it your ,tnest.ion is that there, may be some kind of preferential treatment. Mt. Co*: Well, if we go back further ntee this t May have futthrt qur;:lions but my point is that the City cif Miami i ; not going to pay any pr:,7r. It is the people that work for the City of Miami that i s; going to pay the pt i ee . t t AS Me and a lot of other people but the city is, a non -living entity. It t•; thr. yeapt>: within the city that if priorities; are' seat up there i ;going to have to be sane type of discrimination. Mr. Padgett: Well, other than the answer I chive you I don't have any other response. Mr. Cox: Thank you. Mr. Miguel Gonzalez Pando: my name is Miguel Gonzalez Pando. It seems to r.�.e that the Contractors Should also be included in the Consent ;)scree, ewers,►ctr.rs doinq work for the City of Miami. i heard Mr. Lloyd say there are prt>vision3 already in the city saying that contractors should... Mr. Lloyd: We already have that prevision, sir. Mr. Pando: Yes, but let me read some notes here because I can't speak Tiff the cuff too well. Thos provisions covering contractors I know they exist but based— on past performance i don't believe that there is any reason to believe that such provisions will be observed unless compliance is related with Revenue sharit►;t Funds to be perfectly honest. M[. Padgett: I'm sorry, I didn't catch all of it. Mr. Pando: I was saying that unless the contractors also come under the Con:,ent Decree based on past performance of the City of Miami Ican't believe that they will come under compliance. In other words under this 1-,sue the contractors; is tied to the Revenue Sharing Funds I don't believe that compliances is gmig t, happen. Mt. Padgett: Ok. Well, right off the bat I will have to say t 'ifgrE't h.lvt .en answer for you because I'm not aware or I can't relate the Revenue .-lIi ring provis- ions of the city's contract to what other regulations or city ordinance or county ordinance the city may have concerning this particular matter... Mr. Pando: I guess that the issue I'm trying to raise is that unless the contractors are specifically mentioned here when you talk about City of Muni, its official agents and employees and all persons in active concert or participation with there in the performance of city functions that is not.... Mr. Padgett: You want to include the word contractor? Mr. Pando: Contractor, that's right. Otherwise just intent of the city of Miami, I think the law if very clear on this that it is not the intention but the results. And based on past performance we have not had results although we have had lots of good intentions. Mr. Daniel holder: Mr. Lloyd, my name is Daniel Holder, Miami Advisory Committee on the Physically Handicapped. I'd like to take issue very quickly on what you said as far as the Dade County Ordinance covering the provisions for the physically handicapped. The Rehabilitation Act of 1973 is considerably more intensive and requires actual Affirmative Action to hire the physically disabled. At this tine as far as our committee has seen there is no evidence that the City of Mi4ni is even in compliance with the Dade County Ordinances on their hiring practices. I would like to recommend that going along with Miss Nicol that the physically handi- capped do be included in this since it would require intensive procedings I would like to recommend that our committee get together with Mr. Padgett and his group at a later time if this is agreeable with you. Nr. Lloyd: Nell, it is agreeable with me but as Mr. Padgett has stated to you Mr. Padqutt's Office does not handle this and I would suggest, if 1 may speak for Mr. Padgett that you might be wasting Mr. Padgett's time and his team's time in getting together on this aspect. I will suggest this to the City Commission, as Mr. Padgett said, if they want this to there why that is up to them in their wisdom. Mr. folder. 1 believe Mr. Padgett could be quite helpful in drawing up this kind of thing and I would like to hear it from him as far as his willingness to meet with us. 10 1) TE.1 Mt. Padgett: flit, we're not opposed with meeting with you but. I think as t stated before I think it may be Mote apprepriete that ,any provisions [hit be included in hrre concerning the handir.atpped cesme from or be initi.3lei by the city. We're not opposed to including it but wr think that !hull, wale free% theft but wry clearly will meet with you. We'll clearly meet with You. Cik ? Mt. Holder: Mr. Llu, at this point could wr ask it t hr. city ,i,1t that these provisions be put into the consent Decree? Mt. Llvydt You may ask, I cen not agree on behalf of the city hrc•ause 1 do not have any such authority. I will note your recommendation and pres- ent it to the City Coftlfpission. Any further questions or statements with regard to paragraph l? Mt. Irving Weinsoff: Mr. Chairman, Irving Weinsoff, P'ratc'rnal. Order et Police. 1t have a great deal of concern with the phrase in the second line, "ar,i all per - eons in active concert." Now concert i s a word of art and it ha:, 1 i t t 10 legal connotation and has been used in various discrimination cases. I think we ought to be a little more definitive here. On behalf of the Fraternal Order of Police, and we have never been charged with discrimination by the Justice Department or anybody else, I think that purposes of the Police Department there ought to br an exclusion of labor unions representing the police Department because I'm afraid at some future time someone may in a liberal construction of that phrase Leek to include the labor organizations because of a concerted activity on their behalf with the city, perhaps better terms and conditions of they employees. 1 :strongly urge that perhaps .... ...I strongly urge that perhaps ...when we're working out the exact language of the Consent Decree which will eventually become a final judgement that we expand on that phrase and really say what we mean to say. Mr. Padgett: Mr. Weinsoff, I think it does and that was initially the city'f concern concerning this particular matter. I think you were of t of the room when they stated it. Hut if you'll look there is, I hate to get into thi: kind of thing, there is a con*na and all of that comes after that modifying employees, agents and officials. Then it states clearly that the City of Miami.... It says nothing about collective bargaining representatives and/or say for example the groups that you represent. Mr. Weinsoff: Oh. t agree with you but that.'s exactly the crux of what I'm saying. Since it follows the comma it means this is a whole new phrase and a whole new... Mr. Padgett: It qualifies what goes before it and we probably aren't here to discuss English grammar but it qualifies everything that goes before it and so what you're saying is not relevant to the particular paragraph that we have here. Mr. Weinsoff: In other words you're not meaning to include the labor organizat- ions in this phrase? Mr. Padgett: No, we are not. That was the initial concern of the city. I don't want to misstate city positions... Mr. Weinsott: Then perhaps yov ought to just state that excluded from this injunction are the labor....it would be very clear to those people who are per- haps not lawyers who want to read it. After all, these documents are open to everybody and we're supposed to draft a document that the lay person can read and know who it applies to. There is no reason for them to have to run for a lawyer everytime there is an agreement. Why not later just work out the way it should be made out and let the people know what it really 'means. Mr. Padgett: If I understood you said concert is a term of art which I don't necessarily believe in. I don't thank that if we put it in dictionary definit- ions we would necessarily satisfy everybody. Ng. Weinsott: 1 think perhaps even if not a definition you could have a defin- ition and theta give perhaps examples. You can add an adew1um on here. Nr. Pedgetts We have already discussed possibly that an appendix of definitions. Mr. Jaremkos 1'd like to ask this question, ht. squire Padgett, an ds much as he stated that the city is engaged in a pattern and practice of discrimination in employment on the basis of race, sex and national origin. As a Civil servi.e board Member 1 would like to have him furnish me some information as to where and heat the board might correct this. if there is any such discrimination I' would like to know about and not hose it kept a secret. 11 OCT Irkatlehette Mt. JareMk , t think we wentover the:; Lest tithe and t think tt you go back over that t think you will undo bet anei whet we're say i n'i and if you 1OOR at the Consent hrerre we're attempting to adAre+r;:; areas that wr think that the problem existed. We've specifically addreseeri the. Police a eep,irtmrr,t , they Pith DIcsiartMent, the Sanitation bepertMent and Alt of e hege other arras where there has bees' goals and time tablee and 'titter of that nature and identified the gee esp9 that we think that the problem existed with - blacks, femalee, task re and women. Mt. Wekinsoft: What I'M saying, raven after this document say expires and if you don't point out any specific areas... Mr. Padgett: But if you read the very first paragraph it says on the first page,...Lt says a party to weigh hearings, the entry of findings of facts and conclusions of law. What findings of facts are, what findings and farts would be the specific instances that we would be talking about. Look on thr first page, the list paragraph. Ok, that's exactly what we're attmptinq not to do. We're saying that the city is not admitting that it was guilty of any wrong doing and we are not requiring that they are. If we are to go to court and be put to our proof 1 assure you that that paragraph will not he in there. That's what we're attesting to do. I'm hot trying to be argumentative hut that's why We are keeping it in these terms. Mr. Weeinsoff: Ok, 1 just wanted to go on record as saying that.. ] dnt;'t see the discrimination and the need to weigh anything. Mr. Peter Williams, Jr: My name is Peter Williams, Jr. 6091 N.E. Mfarei Ct. Mr. Lloyd: What are you representing or who are you representing? Mt. Peter williaMae I am the state president of Operation PUSH, People United to Save Humanity. On the question, and you may have gone over this before, the question of agents for clarification of my interests, are we talking about con- tractors at that point? Mr. Padget: Can 1 say one thing? That is kind of like the wore concert i:; a work of art. An agent can be, let me give you an example, the city has a consult- ant that it contracts with and that person does something that is violative of this proposed order. The city can be held responsible for that because at the time the person acts that person was acting on the behalf of the City or whatever that person contracted for. So in that particular situation it would be yes. Ok, if it is what is known as purely a private contractor which is also a word of art then it may not be. The answer clearly would be no. Ok, Mr. Lloyd may want to amplify this more than I but the answer will have to depend on the specific situation. Ok? Mt. Williams: My concern is for the sub -agents or sub -contractors who on many occasions are allowed to discriainate because they are not the prime contractors and in this town we have had too many sub -contractors given bids by contractors and because the prime contractor is only covered by having a minimal number of employees he is then allowed to permit a sub -contractor who is not obligated to E.M.©.C. to discriainate. i would like...inclusion of sub -contractors of agents as a part of this document, very important. Mt. Padgett: Ok, I think it is more appropriate that the city respond to •h..et. Mr. Lloyds I will note your suggestion and take it up with the City Commission as tar as that goes. I think possibly that we can frame something... You know there is an old phrase, "inclusto unius es inciusto slteriusTM. Now that means, of coarse, if you include certain things you exclude others. t think what we're seeking is more of a definitive more broadly defined concept. Mt. Williamss I think the tests sub -agents or sub -contractors is ass definitive as it can be because I identified that element is being a prime case of discristin ateoery . I made that very definitive. Mr. Lloyd: I notice, as I understand it, the Anti -Defamation League of the B'Nai i<'sith representative is here and it slight be appropriate for that gentleman to Brice any statement he cares to stake now. For your inforsation, sir, we are in the process of discussing paragraph 1 of a proposed Consent Decree. Now do you have a copy of the decree? Mr. Arthur ?itiebaitrs I come hero to make some general comments. The decree w4 atvoo to so just a moment ago and they'll be rather brief r think and concern 12 OCT 2•197 theMse1ves with the i.sSut'. I'M Arthur Titlebaum. I'm southern Ath,i rlirt>rtor for the Anti-ihtf liotr League of I3'Nai la'rith. Our regional offieee i:; located here in I thought because of the mention of the Anti-befamatioe League tbd Lte pwsitit>'n oh this issue in these hearings yesterday and ern some news reports yesterday that I Mould read briefly the -operative few paractraPhs of the correspoh4 hce which Wr' sent to Mr. Paul Andrews who is the City Manage? on Sept- ember 3Oth with regard to this issue. It will clarify our position I hope. The Anti -Detention League of f'Nai Writ h is coMM t tea in both spirit .end deed to the eliMiteition of prejudices and di.sorimihat.ion in employment and other areas of Mariann life. For this reason we' support employers taking affirmative steps to Over cane the affects of discrimination against the disadvantaged ir, our society. IN' aril• hemmer, opposed to the distortion of Affirmative Action l'rorrrams through the LiNposition of egaployMent quotas of system, of preferential hiring -h the basis of racer religion, national origin or sex. Such employment. policies he matter how Well Motivated are thetmelves discriminatory and do injury to the concept that equal Opportunity on the basis of individual merit which is at the core of the protection provided to every citizen in American society. We become disturbed, I'm now finished with the operative paragraphs of that letter, we became disturbed over the process here and over the Justice Department's reported requeEt and they conciltatiton ♦greement in terms of its ultimate impact on the actual employment procedures in the City of Miami as the result of the publicity giver the reaction by city officials some months ago when the Consent Decree was fi r�.t proposed and continue as the result of :statements made yesterday by some city rift icialf; to be concerned over the possibility that well motivated efforts of Ili cor:e'ttied ir; particularly the Justice Department may in fact be distorted into ue l awful d i s- cri>ainatory employment procedures meaning quotas and preferential treatment. As the result of the city's feelings if not official interpretation thee; the feeling on the part of city officials that the choices between meeting what may be described can paper as numerical goals and the loss of that 8 to 12 million dollars in federal funds. if that is the choice then numerical goals are merely rhe-•toric.il labels which in fact will be imposed capon the city's hiring policy or expre•sf;end by the city in the form of quotas and preferential hiring on the basis of race, religion or sex or national origin. This we believe is an unlawful employment procedure. It is contrary to the spirits and the language of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Title VIZ and I think it rung the risk of further damaging, if this i what. will happen, further datnagir:g the concept of Affirmative Action which this agency y sup- ports vigorously. It is certainly in business as well as the minds of public employers held in a substantial disrepute because of the distortion et they concept, into quotas and preferential treatment.. Now we have a question to ask if we may respectfully. Are we in fact in the consent agreement, the one that is being pub- lished today or being considered today, talking about numerical goals and are we, have you in some fashion dealt. with the misinterpretation of what would be a numer- ical goal an the basis of what we heard yesterday from city officials who ,are talk- ing about the Justice Department requiring quotas and preferential hiring. Mr. PadEgetts I guess you want me to respond? Mr. Lloyd: If you would. Mr. Padgett: f'ir at of a11, I can't answer your second question because 1 don't. know what the city said... Mr. Tettlebaum: Well were you here yesterday listening to Mayor Ferro? Mr. Padgett: Yea, and I Beard Mayor Ferro in our very first meeting say, ask the distinction between goals and quotas and subsequent to that time the city had given him and furnished us a copy of a statement in which they indicated the goals were lawful and could be included in this particular matter. Now the first question is are we still seeking goals and the answer is yes. Mr. liNettlebaum: The numerical goals and timetables, I presume that's the language that you're using in this Consent Decree. Mr. Padgett: Yes. Mr. TeLtlebsuw: Tha alternative to meeting the numerical goals would be what? Whet Ls the punishment for not meeting the numerical goals if; .4 loss ref federal funds. M I correct? Mr. Padgett: I think you're confusing m whole lot of things there when you say that. Uwe were to enter into a consent order ant there were goats included the tiret step would be our determination of whether there has been • good faith effort made to overcame the problome that existed and a good faith effort wade to hire the pe+vtectod classes we have here in line with what our agreement Was. If we 13 OCT 2 NEWIS mwr Sisk it • 1'terMihation that there is then whet we will ,1e, t;. .f,, te, . ,e;rt t And rt.,. to show that they have hot trade, a good faith e•f f eatf . Mr. Teitlebaumr Mr. Piciq tt, what shall h,, the derihinq it? tf',t �f rtr%r•,l faith? H.A.: .are. you M!. Padgett: That is going to be on they ],attic ular sit: um•=t:ance:; that we are able to determine. If it means the e i te,.•, if they have net ha Able* say people don't resign, people don't die or pectplr don't ratite «t say no new positions are budgeted what can you say? You in i :;ituition like that... Mt. Teitlebatun: ... Wheat wi 1 t you say? Mr. Padgett: There isn't anything you can say. There have not been pport u — itie•. That is clearly what you ::ay. Ok, if they situation is different than that say that there has been hiring or a substantial amount of hiring and the situation in light of all of our efforts to say with all ot the changes that we• propose and agree to and the situation still doesn't improve, blacks are still not getting hired or are getting hired in certain what we classify as undesirable robs .and the same thing is happening to Latins and the same thing is happening to the females then we think we can go to court and say your honor, they aro iu:;t not meeting the terms of the agreement in which we ar^ieably signed and then we will ur' tor .a11 the other kinds of relief. Mr. Teitlebaum: The city's description of the Consent 'erre,e, 1 mean the informal description by some commission members as being a quota sy:;tett;, ,i- agree» that that is an inaccurate statement? Mr. Padgett: I think that is an inaccurate ur.ate statement. 1 1•r s ,nal ly f; a:e' rot heard anybody say that so 1 don't want to cast... Mr. 'Teitlebaum: Well, I did yesterday on the newscast. Mt. Padgett : Ok, and I haven't. +)k? So I don't even know what you're t ,a l k i r1e; about. Mr. Teitlebaum: And that the .tu;;tire Department 1s not .askln•.; the e-07 to ..r,,i,,ete in systems of preferential hiring? Mr. Padgett: To the extent that a goal or a timetable is .a pre•f e're'nt i a i hirer we are. Mr. Teitiebaums Well, then I'1] have to raise the question in a different fashion. Equal opportunity on the basis of individual merit as a concept will be protected in this Consent Decree? Mr. Padgett: Yes, we're saying that you are not required to hire the 1e'ss qualif- ied over the more qualified. That is clearly embodied in the term of the goats and timetables. That's what makes them lawful. Every court decision you've ever read states that. Mr. Teitlebaum: Now the problem with the system of Affirmative Action as it becomes implemented in the real world in a city like this which is so dependent upon federal funds is that the impression left by the federal government frequently is that while we have labeled these things numerical goals and talked about time tables that what we understand will be true rather than what the Consent Decree actually says on paper is that unless we perform numerically according to the defin- ition in the Consent Decree by the time the timetable runn out if we have not met those numerical goals we shall suffer a penalty because the test of seed faith is inters-reted by the Justice Department alone. If Nt. Padpetts Let me correct you right there. You know that that impression has been left. I think that anybody who has discussed this matter with me that impress- ion clearly has not been,..and I have no control over the way people interpret... Mr. Teitlebatrs Sure, sure 1 do. I would su9gest then since you had a meeting with city officials in Washington i believe a few weeks ago and there ws. as proposed hearing sane months before that so that those discussions had preceded this partic- uteri this moment, I think you had extensive discussions with the city up to this juncture informal and formal. It appears to us and 1 think it is rear;ona ble to assure from the reports we saw yesterday in the press that city officials are con- vinced that what is actually being required here is a quota system and systems of preferential hiring which I think he's told me now you ire not requiring and Y would urge the Justice Department to insure that not only city governing officials, the 14 OCT 04 high tirtlicials of govcrninent but those who wi l 1 +rltiMately he making the hiring, (aril' j� promotion and diciplin.ary action dee:isinns have a clear uttderstandin, with (regard to what Affirmative Action is. if year will, i'll borrow a phrase that Was used here a while Ergo in Iayfnan's language ,and what is require' by they Consent. Decree and what would in fact, even though the met,iv=tt i."n.' ere ,I„ , 1 woul•1 result in unlawful elll toyment ptactie-e s in the name of Affirmative A-t i,eh. i think that's a burellet which the Justice Department has to i:-•:uMe• he" ,i r•;e e 1 t ho,Icth you did not hear Chose cotlltnents yesterday the rest of the City ,if Miami did and I say this to you in a friendly way from my ronv'rsatiuns with city officials and with those who have paid some close attention to the Filar up to plate they believe tit what the Justice Department wants is in get it, the right minters. And if we have thing which is in itself discriminatory to practice which happened before the choices act or losing moneys to run the city we're of the two leverages and clearly the money will be operative. so I think.... the final analysis no rn tte,r how we to make a choice between doing some - end the discriminatory patte'rtF; cef between engaging in A ll:ice r iitir; tt >r';' going to respond to which is the greater leverage is ;ping to be the one that Mt. Padgett: I want to say this: I think that anybody wfv, has been negotiating with us will understands that we have been negotiating clearly on the basis, I won't put it in your words, but on the basis that you unclerstane' those + itnetat;le > and clearly what every understanding or what every paragraph in here meant. Ok7 And t guess t must elaborate because I saw Mr. Jaremko and a gentleman' name I don't know grab the Consent Decree when I said not prefer the less :;ual,fii i aver the More qualified. One of the things we're tying in wouIci be goals and timetables. We're attempting to eradicate some of the barriers that we+ have identi- fied i- fied as giving a preference, or leg up a:; you might, to may the non -minorities;; aril other people who have been as we have...favored in they City of Miami before. All of those things are tied into what is known as a goal and a timetable and rho Consent Order. Mr. Teitlebaum: One final comment if you will, :n( final que-lie,. youU t}ei:;k this Consent Decree and the understandings related to it will protect the City el Miami in your judgement when you're all finished from a suit like the ►t t ire the Kirkland Case? Mr. Padgett: I think it will. I certainly think it will. Mr. Teitlebaua: And you ,as the Justice Department will take the At f i rm;it ive step: necessary to insure that this program e,t Affirmative Action is not di'torteei in the name of.... Mr. Padgett: Well, we've been trying to do that ,is we have gone along and I guess the other part of your question is you can't necessarily say who is going to get sued. Law suits are something in the mind of the person who is pursuing them. To that extent I can't because we area aware of the problem that you're talking about because we are getting mail from people who are concerned about the very thing that you're concerned with. Everybody who writes we attempt to respond and fully explain. Mr. Teitlebaum: I want you to know that the Anti -Defamation League in fundamentally concerned with the issue of discrimination in employment in this city and support an affirmative approach to addressing those past discriminatory practices but Just like in the issue of the test of good faith there are marry subjective signals that one can utilize as warning flags and one of those subjective signals clearly are the reaction of city officials during the past few months as reported it: the press and yesterday as reported in the press. They believe what they're being asked to do is engage in a system of quotas which would be tragic if they imposed; I say it would be tragic for this reps:;on . If the . i ty takes this plan and if the plan has in it the sufficient protection so that it does not on paper reflect a preferent- ial :rfrinq request by the government if the city takes that plan and administers it in a manner which involves reverse discrimination which is really discrimination I think you and i will agree, it will make the plan so laboriously prepared vulner- able to suits by Majority complaints who might rightfully complain that they were discriminated against in employment. And that I think after all of this work would be the ultiawte tragedy. Nr. Padgett: Very fine, you know I can't... You know, and I must say again you know it is not my responsibility to educate city officials who don't come or don't listen to what the City Attorney has been telling them that I have been saying. I hive no control over that and/or for example you know and everyone has; a particular interest. kogardlcss of how hard I try to educate if a person doesn't accept what I say I have no control over that. I can't be responsible or we as the govermmnt cannot be responsible for misinterpretation. 1 OCT 2•19? Mt. TettliAtaue: 1 think, however, in the face of eleattt!'stnterpret;lt ionFl already expressed that you ,in have .an affirmative trtpnnt;ihi 1 ity in Chi time btyfshd morniy thr beep! atir)n of the' order .and that 1 ; to ite;U?'• that it in implemented in a lawful fashion. Mt. Padgett: Wr c: Prat ly have hren attempting to do that. Mt. Mc Crary: Let the respond to Mr. Teitleb.auih. (1) 1 don't think that, let's be very candid, probably the cart+ of this whole Matter relates itself to the Police Department and the Fire bepartMent. There are other agencies involved but 1 think that the bulk of the opposition probably comes from Police and tire. 11a Would not have they Justice Department, here had the city chosen to abide by a Consent Decree, Mr. Teit_lehaum, that they .agreed to; whelp the city agreed to call them numbers, call them goals, call them whatever had that agreement been abided by much of our problem would not even be here. And the reason that the city now is just tremendously upset is because the federal government has a kind of weapon. They'll say, if you want to be bad boys we'll take away the ball. So you don't have that money anymore. And you wou l dn' t have this problem if a good faith effort had been made and what we're seeing today is the carte old kind of procrastination. (1) The city has already :il through its agents we can not. abide by Cohen versus the City of Miami. It a: impossible. What other employees of the city have been led to believe that the federal judge forced that order on the city and I want all of the policemen hero to know it because I don't want you to be deceived by what the city saying. They were not forced to sign that order. That order was hammered out eve! 18 months of negotiations. When all parties agreed we can lives with this. the blacks said they could live with it, the city fathers said they Could live with it and there it was. But all of a sudden everybody is so upset now because they Justice Department with the big weapon over the city's head is now talking abort - fellcwc;, you've got to fish or cut bait. A11 we're doing today is going over a whole lot of rhetoric. We'll either enter the decree, take the risk of losing the money or do what you have to do. Call it goals, call it reverse discrimination, call it numerical, call it anything you wish it is the same thing - the lack of the city to operate in good faith when we negotiated in good faith and you did not keep your word. I would suggest we've been on this one paragraph an hour and a half, accomplished nothing, the same rhetoric we're going to be hero until Saturday morning and I assure you gentlemen, we're going to acomplish nothing - absolutely nothing. If we didn't do it, Mr. Lloyd, then...since 1973 when the Consent Order was signed how in the name of anybody can we do it in two days here' today. And the issues are identical. Mt. Lloyd: Well, i suggest then, Mr. Mc Crary, we get about they business. Is there anything further statements on paragraph 1? I have indicated what I will recommend to the City Cosnni:;sion in this respect. We'll go onto paragraph .' then and dispense with the rhetoric on paragraph 1. Now then paragraph 2 has to do with recruitment. As Mr. Padgett has noted, where there are brackets around the particular phrases these are some suggestions which the city would embody in the decree. For instance, where it says the city shall continue to develop that's on the basis that the city has been in the process of developing such already. And where it say reassess its present Affirmative Recruitment Program, the city does have one. I think everybody can read and I think everybody understands and indeed the paragraph regarding city residents are what the Civil Service Board has alr,_ady promulgated. Is that not correct, Mr. Faulk? Mr. Faulk: Yee. Mr. Lloyd: Do you care in the light of the fact that the Civil Service Board has promulgated a certain portion of what we're talking about in here to make a comment in the beginning? Mr. Paulk: Yes, the only thing that I'm concerned about as we discussed in Washington was although at the present time the city has restricted all applicants to be residents of the City of Miami there may be occasions where sufficient applic- ants for a particular job may not be readily available within that particular geo- graphical location and i would thank that we ought to be absolutely certain that, and I think that's what you attempted to do, Mr. Padgett, was to identify policy and give some latitude for it for a change of that policy where the need does exist. Mr. Padgett: Right. Mr. Faulk: And I indicated to you in Washington there were several classifications Musa we were unable to recruit, We had already exempted and broadened that geo- graphical recruitment area to include Dade County. So i want to be absolutely ctnr- tarn that there is latitude for a change of policy as time would prove that there are 16 OCT 2-19 inedequatr supply of people within a particular job Market available too t i 11 tho city'r; positions. Mr. Lloyd, do y„u think yi•u :rr: +,ur I' t ►1 + u►►�, l , you thihk the Lingua: tire presently exist!: in here t bit ha,: been advanced ed by the Justice Department would lar,vide that :' Mr. Litlytit Yts, 1 think that ottv word des that which w.i : t:u+l t' :t,• l t y ""►r- selvets. It is understood that the present recruiting ,arra i the City i,imi t :: Of MOM, such schools and organizations and media utilized shall bp consistent With this policy. This I believe_ was our suggestion and 1 think it is inherent enOtigh and the uhderatanc1in,l is that in areas where you can't ,;cat them you will recruit outside. As a matter of fact, as far as 1 know the Justice Department has no objection to a recruiting area outside. This limitation was our own if 1 rsltleMber correctly. Mr. Padgett: The objection we had was we preferred, we liked the idea of the city limiting to the city but we accept the recruiting possibilities you may not be able to find certain people for certain positions in these classificat- foes and we have no problems with your recruiting outside the city for that. ...particular interest groups that we're representing here and have a city residency requirement. We indicated that a number of times. Mr. Paulk: In reading that bracketed section, the closing sentence it; that particular paragraph it is understood that the present recruiting area is the City Limits of the City of Miami and such schools, organizations and media util- ised shall be consistent with this policy. Mr. Padgett: Right, an:t I'm a little bit concerned with it being this policy being contained in here. There may be some language that would give rr:re flex- ibility because it is, and I know the intent was to comply with what I was relat- ing to you....there may not be room unless you would construe that... Mr. Lloyd: Yes, 1 understand that. I think we can probably work up :_>mething which would be satisfactory to both parties. I don't think there i:; any partic- ular problem over that one is there, sir. Padgett? Mr. Padgett: No. Mr. Lloyd: Does anybody have any particular thoughts on that particular item,? Why don't you step up to the microphone, Captain. Capt. Jim Reese: Captain Jim Reese, Police Department. I just wanted to state for the record that the Police Department is also concerned of the very thin} that Mr. 1aulk pointed out... this might lock us into a city only recruiting area. Mr. Padgett: Well, that's what is in existence now. Capt. Reese: Well. that's true but I didn't want this to be permanent :or the Police Department already has proposed a different policy. Mr. Padgett: Well, if that is what you're saying and particularly with the Police Department the Police Department and the Fire Department are two of the dcpartmentr where we or the city has indicated to us where there would be any problem of get- ting applicants and that's where we would definitely have a problem would be if you attempted to go outside the city before making every effort in the city. Capt. Reese: Maybe Mr. Paulk can explain it further, the current problem we're having then. Mr. Lloyd: Well, how about this, how about something to this general nature... Mr. Padgett: Let me finish. If you're talking about the problem with, and I think Hr. Paulk used it as an exatttple...something about coding some king of finger- print clerk or some particular....interrogation stenographer, if that's what you're talking about we have no problem with somebody going outside of the city to hire those because we understand the number of people available with those skills are very limited. We have no problems with that but if we're talking about entry level positions, that kind of thing people being initially recruited into the department, we do have a problem with it. Capt. Reese* The current Tri-cultural recruiting effort for the last police officer register produced a register about 70• minorities which was a good effort but experience has shown since that time that there have been certain restrictions, by restricting it to the city which was a policy there have been certain problem areas identified and that we fool an additional approach for the next exacts will 17 OCT 2 -19T5 prOdUCF+ as Much if not. .t •1tc',tt er mi nt,r i t y t 1,pte!;l'nt at i t.:l . Put it the p' l i cy Mai to lock us into a city only t't'rt, tt i!rk r'1 trrtt till:. would he •',N►t'tl't l totlact ivr. Mt+ tell rot t#x+ policy orrit•c+t. That' wh.lt I'm 'i.0.1k in ,1 . Mt, t+.ititlfi t.: ( ► t1 1'fi what yt,ll'tt' 1'1'1'i t. ..)khimw w•• it.t\r 1 I t 11111,nt. Capt. Reese: Then 1 .tm to Moil,+ta;t and that the wily ► t 1 ti wt 1 t t t'n Wttl) 1(1 t .lkt' into consideration the exceptions that Ii•Ive already been marte 1 ,t the l assi t - tcattOhs I identified to you... Mt. Padgett: Well, you know you'll have to indicate .ill the classifications ln:t I think we understand what we're talking about. We're talking about a pyramid. Down at the bottom where there are the less skilled positions you'll have to admit that an entering recruit police officer is much more valuable than at interrogat- ion stenographer. Ok. And the closer you get to the top of the pyramid you'll clearly have to expand but at the bottom we don't see where that's so much of a problem or it hasn't been expressed to us as that much of a problem as of yet. Capt. Reese: Well, it is a problem, sir. That's what we're saying and based in terms of the numbers of people available. Yes, because the craw for the last regis- ter was filled... We' a not getting the minorities in a sufficient number .• In other words theRbriy recruiting we feel is in selective recruiting in ? the recruiting effort itself and not the fact of the restriction of the city limits. I think that further restricts us really in our effort and Dr. Morall from the Tri'Cultural prograa I think he would agree to that. Mr. Padgett: But it is also from our facts and figures it appears that mc,•;t of the minorities live in the City of Miami proper. So if you're talking ,about expand - ig you're talking about expanding you are talking about expanding the pool of minor- ities by that much. Capt. Reeser Yes, from this past experience of this register, of course we .:an get into this in detail if you want but ... The true 70s minotiry picture on the register, we've already identified some that they don't fall into that cate- gory. They may be disqualified. Mr. Paulk: Let me give an example, Captain Reese. We've provided our City Attorney's Office with a profile of the Latin community of the City of Miami through some statistics that were provided to our office from Dade County. Those statistics indicated, and I don't have them verbatim with me but you may recall having received that; the profile indicated that there truly were about 53% Latin ethnic group within the City of Miami. Mr. Padgett: ...(INAUDIBLE} That isn't necessarily what I'm addressing here in terms of availability. You're talking about, as I understood it, in terms... That is essentially who we're talking about and you're saying, and if I under- stand what he is saying he is saying...problems getting appropriate... Mr. Paulk: The problem is this, Mr. Padgett, that by example of the most recent examination we are finding that a number of the people who have placed on the register for police officer because of the residence requirement have sometimes used a residence of convenience and it puts the Police Department in a serious situation because there is a thorough background investigation of people who wish to become police officer and they certainly are not investigated until they get on that register and have been referred. In checking backgrounds on many of them it is found that they have given addresses of mothers, or brothers, or cousins or uncles or aunts and they have circumvented in effect what the requirement was insofar as being a resident of the City of Miami. And in a thorough background investigat- ion it is obviously the concern of the Police Department, and rightfully should be the concern of the city, that you don't want to start someone out in a career that should be filled with people who should be of utmost integrity with a falsification to begin with and that's it in a nutshell. Mr. Paigetts (IMAUDIBL£f Mr. Paulks Well let me put it this way, Mr, Padgett. The issue isn't at this point whether it should be city or it should be county. What the issue is is that in the event we fund, the city finds, that the policy that presently exists which is now being identified it does applicants for police officer to be residents of the City of Miami. is there latitude in here to change that 6 months or a year tress now or wearrow7 Ms. Padgetts (ZMAVO1BLE1 The burden...falls on you to ccNae back to us and say 18 OCT 2.1975 Mt. Peulk: We11, i understand that. The only probleT is that when wry must go batik to you it is a very tiMely process .and the need to gut police officer-:; Gut ott the street in one of serious ck!t►r M. Mr. Padgett: (INAUDIBLE) Me. Paulkt I'm very concerned about that bec•aune we May eome back in hwre With a discrimination thing because even the residency could be challenged in the court as it has been across the land ler employees and some applicants. 'here are different kinds of decisions. Mt. Padgett: (INAUDIBLE) after they've established...aft:er cl number of years... MOW back into the city. Now that's where.. Mt. Pavlkt I'm not saying that we cah't but we arc' doing it. Mt. Padgett: 1 understand. We're not... Mr. Lloyd: I'm wondering if we might put sere provision in there th.:t the city may within X number of months or something after review of this enlat-'ir the recruiting area? Mr. Padgett: (INAUDIBLE) Capt. Reese: If we could show where something is not working and we're not getting tither numbers: we would like to be able to go to somewhere within the city and get the policy changed which would be the Civil Service Board rather than have to go back to court. Mt. Padgett: No. ...clearly it isn't you have to go back to court everytime you want to dot an "i", cross a "t". That isn't what we're saying. What we're saying is we set up a mechanism which we can sit down and work this out very amic- ably and very very quickly. Let me ask you one question since you brought it sp. Is the Tri-Cultural program still in existence or will be in existence? Capt. Reese: It is and 1 think it is funded thro:egh December with the possibility of using some unfunded moneys to carry it a couple of months further. Mr. Padgett: And then after that what is it? Capt. Reese: After that I guess the grant would run out unless it is renewed for some reason. Mr. Padgett: In other words we're talking about until approximately February? Capt. Reese: But we're having a new entrance examination in January for police officers and they will be recruiting for that register then that register would gun for a year I presume unless it is exhausted. But this problem is ye,iny to crane up right now because it is a problem right now and the Pol iee Department has requested the Civil Service Board to change its present. policy of "city only" and to expand it to Dade County. And we've also asked them to look into the possibility giving city residents a five point preference on the entrance examin- ation. All we're really asking for is the flexibility built in here. Mr. Paulk: The request was made this week, Mr. Padgett. This request was made this week on Tuesday. INAUDIBLE Nr. I'a41k: Right. No, I know that. Chief R. W. Brice: Mr. Lloyd, may I just make a brief statement? i'm Chief 'rice in the fire Department and I think we're headed in the direction that I would favor. We support the Police Department's position and the Civil Service Chet we have flexibility. We had evidence in our recruiting program that the next examination which will be in January there could be a detrimental affect if we restrict to the city and While we're not opposed to staying within the city we would like the opportunity if this does not work to be able to go else- where outside the city in order to recruit. So we would support this position as long as there is some flexibility or provision that we can handle it locally and we would be satisfied. piss Nicol: Mr. Lloyd, it you don't winch l nay be of misapprehension on my part but the words "this policy" presumes in way mind at least that recruiting within 19 OCT 8 - '5 the city is going on new fnr a11 job, within the. eity. As I understand the Civil e[Vice rules this applies only to Civil. Service employees and though it May not be significant in terms of gross nuts is 1 think it is :significant in te3rxts of classification and job classification and jots salary that there are in excess of 100 positions within the city which are exempt and it is not the policy to recruit either within or without the city rather in solve cases to recruit nationwidee. Per exasttple, for some positions in the Law Departlttent and sone positions in the City Manager's Office; so by using they words "this policy" you presume that you have a blanket policy which is in affect now and I disagree with that especially because of the salary ranges of some of the persons in the ewempt classifications who at entry level would be making in esteems of $20,000 which is significant in term of our reporting. Mr. Lloydt Mr. Paulk, do you wish to addrers yourself to that? Mr. Paulkt Well there is a provision in here that exempts from this whole consent decree, the unclassified positions. t think you will fiv1 that in here. Miss Nicole Then we are referring in here-' specifically to the civil service classifications only. Mr. Lloydt I think very possibly that we are doing to attempt to f:.o e up with some language which will satisfy the Fire Department and the io1iee :ehartment and the unclassified situation and we will submit it back. I think we can probably come up with something in line with your thinking. We will give that a try. Mr. Williams: Are you saying that you are sitting there 3tteeptine tc; satisfy the Police Department and Fire Department with their request that you re -write this docuMent to, not limit the recruitment efforts in the City? That is what you just said and I want you tc, be very careful, that is what you just said. Mr. Lloyd: Do you have an objection to that? Mr. Williams: Yes I have. t1 if there i;; any <eqent l o aq nt in the city government that ha reason t. feel uncomfortable by limitation placed on them, it i'_l that department because that i that most of the people in the community are disatisfied with. It seems to me that part of your problem is compounding the oft City of Miami Police and Fire Department .,ore satisfaction: and the concerns of the community. It is my feeling at this point decisions should be based on what the citizens themselves need seeing that the terms of the consent order is accepted. Thats should be dealing with and not the satisfaction of the City of Police Department or any other agency with the City. t :ee' 1,,11 trio!.t hav i r ; '_ha• the department ,arts; t,' }et the yet dinreoar,4 that your in terms of the question we Miami Fire and Mr. Lloyds Weli of course you understand this, that first, Ih.:deet realized there was any objection to such a thing and secondly, we do have to present an entire picture tor the citizenry of the City of Miami and the way I understood, the Fire and Police Department statements, concurred was 2 things, that eve% with respect to an affirmative action program, that on occasion, their recruiting attempts to acquire minority participation were actually limited by the restriction that they recruit within the City of Miami and i believe, that it wa:- also fairly clear that in certain instances, specifically mentioned I believe by our affirmative action coordinator, that it was not possible sometime, in certain particular job categories to get a qualified person in that particular field. Now assuming, for the sake of discussion that in a particular job area, that an advertisement was put out which limited the ores to the city of eiami and there were no applica.As from the City of Milni for that position, what then do you do? Mr. Williams: You make another recruiting effort Mr. Lloyd. What has happened in this community is that we helve not exhausted the remedies for recruitment. We have not exhausted the resources for recruitment in this community and I will challenge you and Mr. Morrail to prove that you have. I know personally that you have not. When you ;make' a statement that you are going to satisfy the City of Miami Police Deportment and Fire Department and their interests as against the content decree that you sign and are a party to, considering this community is made up of approximately 70^. minorities and there are sufficient proplc' in the cosMunity to qualify and apply. We need to be about the business to soe that those people who are omitted from the recruitment efforts are brought in, and the inner city has a nueber of young people who can qualify for entry level positions There have been pule recommended by personnel departments that have never been called in. I know because 1 was in the employment business that went busted. 20 OCT 2.1975 a I'm saying to you that the remedies aro there if we use them not particularly to satisfy anyone or any two or three agencies within the city gcvethment. Mr. Lloydt Perhaps you might be premature, because you are assuming that we are going solely be satisfactory to the police and F'i Motive that they might have which would not assuming.... if t might resprrt.fully state it, to prepare something which would re DepartMents for some 'ilterial be satisfactory to you. You're Mr. Wi111amst ..,statement that you made was one that was very definitive... Mr. Lloydt Perhaps when you see what we would propose you might have a different. idea. Do you wish to make a comment on this particular paragraph? Mr. Javier grayt On this particular paragraph, Mr. Lloyd, back in November... Javier Dray. I'm with S.A.L.A.D. rack in November 27th last year I made a recommendation pertain precisely to this point in terms of the record, results if we will judge that, that nearly RAC of the members of the police fore are not the residents of the City of Miami. I think that that is evidence enough to show that there is something very much wrong in the recruitment policy of this particular department. I have analyzed the figures of the Piro Depart- ment but I would challenge anybody that would do that to come publically with the results. Now that these are the two departments that are mainly concerned with this particular paragraph it is indeed again very strange that they must continue to concentrate on those issues that have been barriers to equal emL1,?.;- sent opportunity and this is what the Affirmative Action is all about. It ir.; not necessarily reverse discrimination but it is affirmatively going out and recruiting from your labor pool in the City of Miami. And even though this dres not pertain to the paragraph precisely in the wording that it says recruiting but I have looked up at the page 12 on promotions and t would submit that if we don't really hit the nail right on the head that even for promotions there must be a requirement of residence in the city. I think that then whatever we do at this point is probably null and void. I think that the city really has to very seriously attack this problem because it has proven to be one of the major faults that has to be corrected. Mr. Lloyd: Mr. Jaremko. Mr. Jareakos Mr. Padgett, this is a dilemma proposed to the Civil Service Board. The people who do the actual recruiting are now coming and requesting to the board to open it up to the county so they can direct their recruiting activities because they have to get organized long before the test. Now we hear other people like the gentleman from S.A.L.A.D. stating statistics. He evidently is not involved in the recruiting program but the Tri-Cultural expressed a desire to go to the county. Mr. Padgett: I think i sense the Gist of your questions. In fact, our position if you will talk to people has been very siatilar to that of Mr. Williams and Mr. Dace? in the sense that we don't think, and we have stated and we have at times suggested specific organizations that should be contacted to widen the pool of available applicants. I think that has been our position in these negotiations. I think that Mr. Paulk and Mr. Lloyd will agree with it so what we're saying is that if you knock down some of these barriers and widen the base that we think that you can also stay within the City Limits of Miami. You know we are willing and available to consider some other alternatives which we think will help and favor the people that we're concerned with in this particular process. Mr. Jareakos What I'm saying is we're at that point right now. Mr. Pu.Jgett: Alright. well you know we're.... mitoor1F1ED SPEAKER: ...we're progressing at a snail's pace and it looks like it is slowing down even from that. So...we could have the decision made whether we're going to enter this or we're not and we can go to court and you can pursue whatever you're pursuing and we can attempt to decide in court if we dislike it. Other than that I can't say. Mr. Lloyds Any further discussiat an this item? Anybody else? Mr. Paulks Vest I have one last comment. As I understand it to be written now then would be no latitude whatsoever for the city to broaden its base other than tbs policy it is going to affect an the moment that this thing is signed by the judge, , , other than asking for relief from the Justice Departstent? 21 OCT 2 •ems I sisgiJest Mr. Lloyd„ that a provision he tewti ttr:n in here to previde the latitude basted on the urgency of need that, and I'm not saying police officers or fire fighters, I'M saying that whatever that job is that tee have difficulty in recruit- lntj for that we would have the latitude, the city would have the latitude to broaden the base of recruitment frets the city to wherever it may be necessary to recruit from to fill that particular position or positions because I think that is a Must. it is going to be so cumbersonte and tittlely process to get the approval Of the judge after reviewing it by the Justice bepartment to modify this in order to a v. ahead with the employment of people in positions that are critical to the operation of the community. Mr. Lloyd, Mr. Dawkins, I will recognize you but are we just going to reiterate what has been said before or do you have something new? Mr. Dawkins, Nn, I have something new. I'm in a dual position. I'm on the Affirmative Action hoard but I have to speak as a citizen. All we talk about here is gerrymandering. Let's speak within the City of Miami. I r:an find anything in the City of Miami that the City of Miami wants to hire. Mr. Paulke Mr. Dawkins, I'd appreciate it if you'd refer about 4 interrogation stenographers for us because we're in drastic need of them. Mr. Dawkins: I sent you 60 policemen and you didn't hire thous, so why should I send you anything else? Mt. Mc Crary: Let me just ask one question. The Civil Service Board I think very recently made a decision or a ruling that it would hire within the City of Miami. Mow, we're still playing cat and mouse. One day we say we're going to hire in the City of Miami - the next day we say we're not. Now I'm sure that there was some very careful thought went into that when these gentlemen decided that ::e wanted to hire within the city. Now what is the rationale now for getting outside of it? Did we find that it does not work or why did we change it initially? That's the real problem. Mr. Jaremkot Why it was changed was an effort to recruit more minorities and the desire for a change dote; not come from the board but from the various departments, the various agencies that are trying to recruit and they're experiencing a lot of people that say they live in the city but do not. As a matter of fact, I think a full 25% of the police register falls in this category and as stated before what we're doing is we're having people start off as police officers and saying that they live in the city and these same officers will be the ones that aro going to swear before the court. This really getting them off on the wrong foot. So this is a problem that we're experiencing and this is wny it has come up at this time because this Consent Decree talks to that. Mr. Mc Crary; Let me recommend this. if we are at the point where the City Com- mission cr the Civil Service .oard can genuinely show that there is .i need an,i that it cannot fulfill it:; obligations within the city rotative to recruitment then would you not c on:; i d t 'living 'hose residents ,f the: City of Miami that you recruit some preferenti ►1 t re4trn •nt. like you do veteran Mr. Jaremko: That's anot:ic r alternative. Mr. Lloyds I can tell you that th.at'<: what i:; under eon.-i ler,,t ic}ci. I ::,,; has boon mentioned. Mr. P ealk mentioned it . Yes. Major Gunn: I'm Major Gunn from the Police Depart.mer:t . I lust wanted le l': ee• nt some facts that we have. There' was 110 people on the regU t..r .and of l let that we have we found that 27 of them have, 1 won't use the woi-.i lied, but circwei- ventel the residence requirement.. of those 27, 17 .are minority people that wr need. It puts us in a dilemma. We go out on the background investigations and we find that these people have absolutely lied about their being in the city, these 17 minorities and then when we go to cut them from the thing because they don't cow. ply with city requirements then we're accused of trying to get rid of minorities. This puts us io: a bad position. 5o what we've asked is that another system be level• oped where we could possibly provide a Si, preferential treatment, 5 points for people living in the city that wuuid give us the opportunity to go to Fie, to Florida Newor- ial Colleaye - selective recruitment for minorities. This is what we want to do and brinq these people that are Latin populations and black populations that have moved outside of the City Limits and give the an opportunity to came on our department. That's what we want. Mr. Lloyd: I thins we've reached a fairly clear understanding as to what that situation is. Is there .anything further on that? ... Mr. William. what we've 22 OCT 2.1975 bets discussing here is, and providing, of course• that we research it and Make sure that it is ncst diacrtminatory in itself but wr have been dtscussing the idea of in the event that we expand the recruiting area that .a percentage preference for City of Miami residents would be given 1n the test. What is your feeling on that particular item? (IMAUnIPU RESPONSE) Thank you. That's what we're discussing. Pine, thank you. That would be inherent than in a pro- posal I think that we would be discussing. is there anything further 'n this particular subject matter? UNIDCMTIPILD SPEAX&R: What are we recommending? Mt. Lleydt What we have discussed recommending to the cotytmi'sion would be that. (Mt. Padgett, make Bute 1 phrase this correctly the way we '.:ad just suggested it hate) Mt. Padgett: ...is a....it is very similar to say the veterans preference kind of situation given preference points to residents of the city in competition with people outside once it is determined that they have to recruit outside. our posit- ion is, and we haven't - this just cane up we haven't fully articulated it. The department or the government would go along with some kind of position that every effort be Rude in the city initially and then after if the city made a determinat- ion or some kind of definite proof they just weren't coming up with the nutmbcr than go outside...use this as a trigger. Then .... Mt. Mc Crary: My concern is that Civil service Hoard is not abandoning its posit- ion about recruiting in the city. Mr. Lloyd: No. Mr. Mc Crary: But there has to be a cleat showing by the Civil Service Poard or by the agency recruiting that it cannot get what it needs within the city and then and only then will we move outside of the city for recruitment. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Exactly... That's the only reason we didn't act on it on the last meeting. We want proof that it can't be done in the city. Mr. Padgett: And then you would use this as a trigger to give preference points to residents of the city who feel desirous to take the test. Mr. Mc Crary: Ok, my next question is agency recruits it is then going to report to the Civil Service Board and the Civil Service board is then going to authenticate that it is not able to get what it wants within the city? Mr. Padgett: Right now I don't know exactly. I think it is kind of on the table with three or four different positions being available. That's what the problem is. Mr. Lloyds Me haven't had time. This has just kerns up. Mr. Jaremke: I'd just like to comment on that if I may. This is what happened the day before yesterday when the police came to us with this proposal and we advised Bob Paulk to get his figures together and prove to us that there has been an addquate effort wade, that there are insufficient numbers to justify to move into any area ano that's where it is at right now. Mr. Padqetts Does anybody have any kind of response to that, those kind of alter- nativew that have been thrown out? Mr. Lloyds Actually I think I can answer that question from Mr. Mc Crary and Mr. Mtlliaas and the gentleman from the various recruiting agencies. Actually, this would be the Civil Service Board's prerogative. In other words all recruiting actually, asp i not correct, Mr. Peak; actually physically in the ultimata end through the Civil Service System, the agencies...the !rt-Cultural Program can recruit but they're funneled through Civil Service eo any change would have to go through the Civil. Service Bash first. I believe that would answer your quest- ion from the standpoint of mechanics. Do you have anything further to say on this particular item? Mr. Mario Nutinss Right. A wry seat/ point just to try to shed a little bit of light. t think that perhaps in this parttcviar program about addresses being verified it could be helpful to test the addressee immediately, the minute a person applies so that you don't set up yourself far the program having to.... Mr. Lloyds Let as make a comment an that, tt you don't mind, sir. $yppasinq for one particular jab category you get !00 appitcants. Are you suggesttmq at the 2 OCT $•19T5 taw yers expense that it is feasible to go out and chuck addresst s of I00 Applicants? Mr. Molins: No. Well, I'm only .peaking from enerience i71 our office. We demand that a person bring with him nr her two documents showing proof of address. Mr. Lloyd: That might be a good idea. That's a valuable suggestion S think. That's a mechanic but I would recommend that. Mt. Molina: Of course, I realize it is more complicated than that and that naturally you'd have to check into lob related things other than addresses. Mr. Lloyds I'd like to go along before lunch to the paragraph "8" with respect to the Police Department, that phrase there. Is anybody ready to speak on paragraph... Jessie. Mr. Mc Crary: ... This paragraph is completely open and this is... suggested by the city and we, maybe before anybody talks it may be worthwhile for every- body to explain their positions... And if the city wants to go first I'm willing to defer to them but the position: of the Department of the Justice and the city is missed. It can't meet the standards ... So that really bothers us. So we are very very concerned about this particular paragraph ir terms of the recruit- ing, the recruiting as agreed to in Cohen and in addition to the continuance of the iri- Cultural Program and we... So with that maybe the city want, to state their position before your respond. Mr. Lloyd: No, if there has been any admission on the part of the city of fail- ure to meet the requirements of the Cohen decree it has not been by me. Mr. Paulk: No, but it has been by me. And I don't like to have to say it but the fact is that the attrition rate within the Police Department is not going to be sufficient to be able to achieve the kind of results that are identified in the Cohen Case. We in all liklinood will be able to meet the ratio of numerical goals alluded to insofar as recruiting and placing black police officers. But I cannot conceivably expect to a:hieve the placement of some 50* of the number of police officer positions of Latin descent in the Police Department in the next 2 years. We're already at three years under that and I just can't see that it is going to happen. It is a tact it is not going to happen. We've got the last statistics when they were submitted to the Justice Department throught the City attorney's Office. We've got about 800 police officers including all positions of sworn officers - police officers, sergeants, lieutenants and up. There are 600 plus Anglo-Saxon police officers and I cannot conceive that they're going to leave. They're not. There are some of them that are, that will retire. We've made a very cautious study of the ages of these people, how soon they may be able to retire so that we could get some projection as to what the attrition rate could be and I cannot believe that of 600 police officers that we're going to lose 400 to diminish the city's police force to 200 Anglo-Saxon police officers over the next two years. It's not going to happen and there is no way of our thinking it is going to happen because it isn't. We will work towards those goals to try and achieve that balance but it can't happen. Mr. Miguel ..;onzalez-Pando: I want to speak to the last two sentences here... Mr. Lloyd: Always state your name, please. Mr. Pando: Miguel Gonzalez-Pando from S.A.L.A.D. and the Affirmative Action Board of the City of Miami. It says here the city shall continue to operate a Tri-Cultural Program or other similar recruitment program. I'm concerned over an inconsistency berwL,— what we hear and information I got from the City Manager's Office yesterday when I inquired. The information they gave me was that the Tri-Cultural Program was going to be dropped in December. The grant runs out. So I would like to know whether th.: city has any plans to continue the Tri-Cultural Program in order to com- ply with the Consent Decree. We have here the present director of the Tri-Cultural Program, perhaps he can amplify on this. Mr. .Joseph Parades: Well, the Tri-Cultursl Program will end in December. We are trying to get an extension of time for another three months so we can go through the recruitment for the next class. However. after that is done we have had same word tram the Justice Department from L.E.A.A. that the probability of funding for programs is negligible. So we probably would not continue the program eerie as a grant. Mr. Pando: 1 think this thing should be talked now because we're talking about something here and there are no provisions for implementing it. I think that also 24 OCT 2.19 5 the possibility should be explored of using Revenue haring rl::ir en itil lenient the Ttii.Cultural Program. Mr. Padgett: Ok. As I said bef we were aware that it would be dropped in DeceMber but we did seriously questin the continuance of the Tri-Cultextal Program and what it had done. We've done that and this language here is just language that has been suggested by the city. it'c, not agreed to this. e it is also a cOn,V•r_rn of our. Mt. Panda: Ok. Before you agree I think you should get ore c:tea: t~ the that there is going to be such a program. from them Mt. Mc Crary: Mr. Lloyd, the city now says we cannot abide ehh ', `-sus the City of Miatni. What is the alternative to that? It in , r . ,i. = ir: i . : t something that was negotiated with they city. They ju 1e' Aid r;.t •:ni 1e,terdlly An that. The city by its City Manager, Mr. Reese said along with the :, • y Attorney who was not Mr. Lloyd at that time said, "We can live with this .x:, i we :a:, cic, it. Now the city three years later says we cannot An that. it l.r ^:. I e gym. The question now becomes if you sign this Consent Decree three years frork n, 0t.: we may be talking about we can't live up to what the Justice repast tent want i. Now the one organization who has the ultimate weapon; all along is the court order that. I have. We have been the most patient, the Most docile peo,•:c on c. _-t1: :,; ,ut this order even to the extent of waiving certain right th3 wt 1.6.d u.:?er ', t order - to stop the entrance examinations. Chief Garmire appeared ".ere hefe _-e ~ne cr-r:mis- sion and said, "I need new officers on the street, Mc Crary. wil: , : :ivy' that portion about the University of Chicago for that exani::at_ ?" (1 ...::tt not to make the city disrupted because I wanted officer'; cn the :;t:reo'.. Fut now the city says , "We can't keep our part of the bargain." This is the first time I've heard it officially which leaves me with no alternative ex-'ejt cr. aI na with the Justice Department and go back to court under Cohen nr,c' t : n c.s% t:,.- federal judge to impose some kind of sanction against the city. Whet ee wF or what does the city intend to do? You have clearly said we eannet 'i°r. u; t.. Cohen but you're asking the Justice Department to sign a Conee.,t :,c,-,e.,, ..,, throe years from now gentlemen, you know what'll happen. You'll say w' : we can't live 'i to that. Mr. Lloyd: May I make a statement. What I personally am trying t:c do is to be practical about this particular decree and recommend somethihg t1;:it th. city can live up to. It Mr. Mc Crary: But Mr. Lloyd, they had that {chance. YoJ're! :1 lawyer, )u've done negotiating. You know you work out a settlement and everybody is expected to live by it or you have to pay the consequences of it. I'm not trying to threaten the city with going back to court but I've heard officially here today that you cannot live up to Cohen. I have no choice - I have absolutely no choice and would be derelict in my responsibilities to the people I represent if : did not bring the City of Miami back to court. And then if that happens we've reeliy qoe a problem iecause the possibilities are that I'm going to stop all oxc ni: d,_ious n:i re-enter t!. order, reopen the whole case and then there woe.' be any ex...inat ions, th?re wen' t be any people going into the acadetry. Now let's wei h what- we ' re :tg here. Now the city has to make a good faith effort to comply wi`..h this r:ier and it's got to be better than what they've done. If they do ::ot do that. Mr. Lloyd, I assure you I've got enough authority that I can s Le;- every examinat- ion ie this city as it relates to the Police Department, stop entrance into the academy, reopen the whole case based on the representations that you wii. not comply with it. Mr. Lloyd: Well, Mr. Mc Crary, are we at issue on that parcic.•alar i:era here today? Mr. Mc Crary: Mr. Lloy,3: Depa r tmen t other than... Yes, sir. :r are we attempting to negotiate another decree witee the eestice !u you have anything to say with respect to this part:cular phrase Do you have any suggestions what should be 1;ut i:; here? yr. Mc Crary: Yes, I have same suggestions. The city recognizes its obligations which are embodied in the judgement entered in the case Cohen et al Versus the city of Miami and also recognises that they failed to live up to what it was sup- posed to do. You see that's the language We want because that's what 'iou're say- it►g toay. We're saying today you're going to try but you're also saying we can't live up t-o Cohen.... 25 OCT Mt. Pau1k: Mr. Lloyd, I'd like to suggest that the Civil Service Board tor I had anything to do with the writing of the Consent Decree and I am very concerned as 1 think everyone should be concerned with putting in any sort of projected attrition rate in trying to achieve something that cannot be achievable. And that is precisely what orcwred in the Cohen Case. Somebody simply ignored what was going to happen insofar as people who are going to dep.tt, however they should depart. And it is not reasonable to expect that we cat► achieve_ the kind of reeults that are alluded to in that case. I don't think we want to pet any sere of eroject• ion or any false goals into such a Consent Decree that cannot. be: 'hided or hoped to be abided by. I'm not willing to accept the fact that we have failed to achieve wat is expected to be achieved in the Cohen Case, We have cleee everything possible to be able to do but numbers are going to cause us to fai 1 . The Cohen suit did not call for the displacement of present people and the only you .en bring new people aboard because there are only so many apples in a basket is when the basket becomes to be empty you fill it again. And we can only fill the positions that become vacant. We're trying to do that and we're trying to live .r; w;i' it. Mt. Mc Crary: Mr. Paulk, my remarks are certainly not it ree,ed to you personally and I think you know that. They're not directed to any of you eentlemen personally o the ladies It is just that the responsible city officials neeotiatecl this and to Civil Service Board and all of the city ,ieparements are b.:unri by that. That's all I'm saying, just as your....is going to be bound by what happens here today. So I don't think it is enough to say that somebody else neget.iatel. He was acting on behalf of the City of Miami: he was tr►e City Manager: he wee tile Citv r.tt c rnry . Under our form of government he is the chief officer. He .lid it! we qo; it, we ail agreed to it and now the city is backing out. What I'm elyine '.s 1 ae not attempting to bring the city Police Department, that's all I'm concernee with, to a screeching halt but I don't have at: alternative now in ligi►t. of what I've been told here. Now if the city and Justice can work out something that is in line with Cohen that is satisfactory to the people I represent 'c' be happy ther to withdraw it. But at this point I have absolutely no alternative :gut to proceed and to just bring it to a halt so there'll be no promotions, nc examinations, no nothing. Major Gunn: I'm a little bit confused and I would like sorne clarification on the Cohen suit. I thought in the Cohen suit the judge took reeoenitian of the fact that when they put in the wording that the city would strive towards achieving this rather than making it a mandate that they would achieve and I think out Tri— Cultural program we have fulfilled the obligations of the court-. We are striv- ing to achieve this. It didn't say that we had to achieve this, we would strive towards. Mr. Lloyd: Well, I think... Mr. Mc Crary, don't you really believe that it will serve no useful purpose to enter into a debate over the meaning of the Consent Decree at this time? Mr. Mc Crary: No. I certainly want, and I'd like to furnish ea)or Gunn with copy of the order, the order does as the other gentleman says with tine word of art, "The city shall" in terms of those figures. It did not say shall strive, Major. I'll furnish you a copy. It says, "Shall within a five year period have on its Police Department a number reflective of the populati.on of the city." The word shall is mandatory as we all know. Mr. Lloyd: I understand. Mr. Javier bray: Mt. Lloyd, I'm Javier Bray again and I want to refer to the specific !.znguage in here where it says, and the city shall continue to operate the Tri-Celturai Program and other similar recruitment programs... Mr. Lloyd: It says "or" Mr. Bray: It says or. And this is actually a proposal by the t i * y .in,-i not necess• drily tar ees3 to by the Department of Justice. Mr. Lloyd: That's correct. Mr. pray: Then the question is addressed to you. In the other .imi l,er programs did you consider an independently run recruitment program like the TrieCultural? Mr. Lloyd; some outsi 1 don't understand what you Min by the term independent. Po you wean 3aencvl Mr. dray: The Tri-Cultural Program is a program in itself. It's not a part c the Police Diperta.at or the Pica Department and this is what I mean about the 26 OCT 2-19?5 other similar recruitmentprograms. in other words if there are he fund!: (.ctn- iftq free% L.t;.A.A. to continue the Tri-Cultural Program whether the city is pre- pared to put the funding or a continuation. Cali it Tri-Cultural, call it some- thing else that it will be a program to run along the same Quieeiines .is the Tri..Culturai prrrgrah. Is that the way th.;» this is to br interpreted? And if e0 could it be very clearly instead of gust similar? Mr. Lloyds i don't have the authority to tell you that right Mr. Stay, Well, what is your feeling, what would he your recommendation to the Commission? Mt. Lloyd! 1 hadn't gone that far in my recommendation. ... Pasically what you say, yes, we would have a recruitment_ program but how it i going tc be funded and all is not, we have not reached that point yet. Mr. Bray* Well then would you consider then instead of loavi::,• it in the i:ac language of "similar program" that it be made very specifi.,•. I think th pose of this discussion is to add specificity to the negoticit.ic:;s new. and I think that if we continue to say that we're not prepared...then wn are certainly not only going at a :nail's pace but I think that we are actually ir.telfe'rring with doing the work. 1 think that this should have been very thoroughly thoJg'it cut by thin point. Mt. Lloyd: Well, would you like to give us a statement in writir. Mr. Bray: I can put that statement in writing, yes, :air. Mr. Lloyd: Thank you. Captain Reese. Capt. Reese: Captain Reese in the Police Department. I think it :7.ho,.:1d be said so everybody knows about it as far as the Tri-Cultural ?:oguam ion there have been certain administrative problems that have developed in the re ruitinc effort and a decision was made that if the L.L.A.A. funds becaue ~available for a renewal of the grant that the administration of it would placed in the Police .epartment. Mr. Lloyd: Right now, the way 1 invision this particular paragraph P i% that it actually is open in as much as the Justice Department has not concurre:l in the proposal. Of course, we would expect probably a proposal by the .usti»e Department and Mr. Padgett, 1 don't want to put you on the spot but i suspect that you would hve something to add not right now but at some time in the near future about this. Is that correct, sir? Mr. Padgett: Yes. Mr. Lloyd: Alright. And we will, of course. take into ccnsidrration all of the other aspects which have been discussed here today. I think : uncierstZnd them a:vf present them and see if we can come up with something. Now the next thing is tl.•• Fire Department. It is now 12:10, would you gentlemen prefer to g) to lunch and cone back or would you prefer to discuss it? It probably will be quite lengthy so with your indulgence I might suggest a lunch break from now. How about 1:30 for everybody? Let's make it 2:00 O'Clock instead because it gives us a little more time to possibly make new arrangements and have a good lunch period. Is everybody agreed with that one? All right, 2:00 P.M. CITY CLERK �� •< < 'err": a- 0ek e) 27 OCT 2.19T5 rt •1 i'CAT;CRIP OF HEA$'tell l: l NITr ; r' Tr1 Es tiltITr: r`,iArL; r, OFFICIALS tit- CITY 0,- L;:E. i ktti'i Nt:LIJ Oil '1CtOjEs. I, PRESENT REPRESENTING ,l'Jc. T I CE_ i EF'', ' "': '1 ; REPRESENTING ToS.A;{.;RY REPRESENTING THE CITY OE t- I A!. ; IN ADDITION REPRESENT:\T1VE^ or cE -;- ;:- EMPLOYEE GROUPS WERE IN ATTEN7A+10E, SESS I O;� ; :25 F.M. Mr. John S. Lloyd, City Attorney: We are read': ta i'c ,, and at this time we are on section 2-C, Recruitment with rt� 4i,o t t,1 the fire department, and at this time inasmuch as it vitoli': coat t•rl:: t't: ::reHre ,iepartmt'nt with the labor representatives from the tire deportment. ; i :. ;t Sst ,i t(. speak to it. We are ready Mr. Naples, anytime you art'. Mr. Gene Naples: Certainly we have gone through docume't t;l• lir:ited time we have had it, and we are in some ways elated tt' tht i ,i, t ,hot Ha. .tust i c'e Dept. has -ecognized the fact the firefighters have involve,; ..bti- -fives in :In affirmative action program. We really feel that the experion=• ::t :t ; the one-time program was seomwhat a success, although we als it -!el ci;r ,morn has not really had an opportunity to step out once more ana while we are involved in that program we would hope to continue with the proeran. it w,e: before. Here 1 see where the program would be introduced into thi -, decree .end o: course in examining it, we find that in the portion, theL.ta 1? rcJ z api , :,r page where it speaks to the 5O%, that the city shall seek to select SCCe ca new appointments from those among the applicants who participated in the ;>ri- rar': . We are concerned that that might possibly be a quota of some sorts when we cake the ; ist that are under the minority improvemen program which incidentafly :.rta rt lie in same list that would come from anyone who took the test whether- or not t:lc•y were involved in the program, so our question of course is, are speai:.in about .' .ti:'ferent lists at this point? And if so, we would have some concern Mr. Lloyd: Perhaps we can elaborate on that turti;er when you inish your presentation. I would ask you some questions about that. Mr. Naples: Of course again the selection process, and ! would like to say to everyone that is here, that the city, in our procr.im ano in instituting our program last year gave us the utmost cooperation and as a matter of fact the department of labor representatives remarked that toe.: hadn't ,ten gin} city where they had had quite the amount of cooperation that they fad. The: had it at every level and of course we were very happy that we were able t, nave them come in and of course like to continue that program with them, but also r•n page 1 which is out of this particular thing, speaking to the 'O% we have some initial concerns over that, and of course I am sure when we ,et to th:t part there, there will be a lot of discussion on it. We see that the verbage in here speaks to maintaining standards and of course we are quite happy with that. The portion that has to de with testing requirements of course would come under everyone, and not specifically speaking to the fire department. but generally speaking we are of course again most happy that the justice department will consider our recruitment program. We would hope that we could continue the program, and except for the one place in there, 1 spoke to the SO% which is concerned. and 1 would like to discuss that. W. Lloyd: Would you prefer to begin the discussion en that Mr. Naples? Mr. Naples: As i said before Mr. Lloyd, my questions would he are you really talking about establishing a separate list with the affirmative action program from the labor recruitment program, that we are currently involved in. as an aside to the regular register. ltr, Lloyd: 1 am frank to admit that i am not certain on it. Mr. Padgett perhaps you would like to elaborate on it, because ► have no sought to take the 50% out because 1 didn't exactly know the signficanct-' of it rvself, the way 1 understood it, vas that we would seek to select 50: from among the applicants rho have been tratned, SO% of the total. from among applicants who had been trained 28 OCT 2-197 in your reerutting program. Am I correctly interpreting that? %rw, any difficulty you have with that please feel free to discuss it. Mr. Padgett: If t understand your problem correctly, 1 think there isn't going to be two lints necessarily, but what it is providing: an opportunity for is, we don't want to be able to say that all applicants Ire Feint, all other applicants, other than applicants going through this program, are being excluded from entry, taking tests, and entry into the fire program. If we understand your program correctly, what it does is prepare people to gri before the oral rehearing board and take the test. We have had good succes with applicants who have taken the teat getting on the register. That Is what concerns us, we aren't trying to exclude anybody else from the register, but we are trying to make sure that the applicants that you get have a pretty good chance, or Netter than even chance of getting into the fire department. That is what we are trying to as,;sire. Mr. Naples. The other thing is, T am not sure how, it we get in•Yc'ive'd in this consent decree under, --the way it is written here, that it will conform with the program as it comes from our international department of labor. Mr. Padgett: We don't know exactly how your program is going t. come trc'm the international, but what is included in there within these ' ncupt:-, it gives you a degree of flexibility. It asks the city to cooperate, it asks v+'u to do certain things, so within that framework, it would he hoped that you can i rk out the nuts and bolts yourself. Mr. Naples: Okay, would the Justice Department have no objection tc, us working that out, or taking the program as we now have already had it on one occasion, and bring it back in, that we could continue, ---- Mr. Padgett: ---as we understand it, the program changes dr.isti&':+lly, and it starts doing something different than what we understood it to do, ---- Mr. Naples: I don't think anything has been changed. Mr. Padgett: --we may have some questions. Mr. Naples: Thank you. Mr. Lloyd: Anything further with respect to the fire department: Mr. .leremco: I have a question. I would like to elaborate on that SO% and take a hypothetical situation. Are you planning to by -pans certain people in order to get at the people who were in that program. What l am saying is, supposing that the first 10 people pass this test with a higher grade than * minority group. then are you going to by-pass those people with a higher grade in order to get that SOL Mr. Padgett: That isn't what it says. It says 'of the people that you to%0 in'. --we are assuming that the people from this program are going to make it on the register. The people you take in. 5O% of them are going to be out of this program. I don't think the Civil Service Board intends to ignore the first 10 highest applicants then pick these 10 people off. Mr. Jeremco: I wanted to bear you version of it. 1 know what the Civil Service Board's position is. Mr. Padgett; It there are sons serious problems and you aren't meeting your goal, maybe the Civil Service Board better reconsider how it is selecting applicants for the fire department. As I stated before, if everything is equal we don't thank minorities are going to have any problems. and the way you phrase the question, you apparently think they are. We are saying they aren't. ---if they do there is something wrong with the selection process. Everything equal they should have just as much of a chance as anybody else. Mr. Lloyd; I weeder if I might ask Mr. 1ilaples m question on that score from the standpoint of factual information. What his been your experience so far with your trailing progren. Now successful have been the applicants that have engaged in that program. Nr. Maples; I think if I sight Mr. Lloyd, Chief Brice is here, and of cause main, I waled to say before as long as us ire talking about realistic 29 OCT 2 • goals, we have no problem with it. i think that is what e arc really talking about. Chief Brice hie the figures on the program and he might relate this to you. Chief trice t The program that ran last year, and is still in c•t at this time, and will be until November, there were 495 r: nor i. i es Of that group 217 took the exaamination, 114 pass it. Of the first 43 have employed at this time, 302 was in minority repro entatirn. We a process of starting in hiring at this point for .a class tr .tar to that class ve suspect there will be more minority representation. know at this point the total count, but it has been .3nl-rox i na t t• 1 v that we have hired have been in minorities. tact recruited. t hat we re ir the month. We do n o t o: those 15 it melt• intent.. t,n 01 the Piro Department to give the same exam that have been given in ,arc iours years? Mr. Padgett: Can I ask a question? Are you, Chief Brice: I refer that to Mr. Paulk. Mr. Paulk: No, Mr, Padgett, We embarked u;,on in earl% July. a tt ;. analysis to undertake a restructuring of the exarr,inatikr i.ased c•;: r c `.;t,r!ies and following the guidelines of EEOC to develop that exa^:ination. »r ,rtiL•inate that in January when it is targeted for the examination to lie readri r, i stertd . that we will have a mew test. At this point we haven't been ahle tc, identify precisely the kinds of things that will be on the test. It is still t, the mill, and we anticipate by the end of Octo1+er, we will be able to identify ;its types of things, although the items on the test will not he ready, and wit:1 the identifi- cation of the types of things that will be on the cvamin.ation, we do anticipate that we will be able to give sufficient information to the interne:tirnal program, so they might engage in a tutorship program for the people who are recruited thusly. So that is the best answer I can give you at this ;rI;^.ent. Mr. Lloyd: Any further amplification on this i need t.. ;E i : on .coot two gentlemen? not , Chief Brice: If 1 have answered your question, Mr. Lloyd: Yes. I believe you have, thank you sir. Mr.Pando: 1 have some problems with an implication that minorities will Mr. Lloyd: No one has raised the specter here but yourself. I don't believe I have heard anybody of the Civil Service Board say that. ' think `;r. Padgett suggested that maybe that sight be a problem, but 1 don't believe ai _ ardy 01 our Board said that. Chief Brice: I think he is responding to the question asked by ?:r. Jerer.;o and Mr. Jerome* used the example and I responded based on the example he used. 1 think you want to respond to that.--- Mr. Pardo: - ---yes, I as responding, I thank the hypothetical question that he vas posing. is making an implication. and I have to ry jec. z that. Rather than thinking that minorities cannot compete once equal opportunities are afforded, i would like to direct attention to the criteria for ranking sonority applicants. For example the ices -Allen report which was a consulting firm that was hired by the City of Miami, to sort put things in some kind of order, and it was not addressing itself to this question of affirmative action, but even then they say that a aymboi examination historically have proven only 30 to 40 percent valid in predicting job performance. at best are only relatively indicative of basic job apptitudes. i guess the point 1 want to wake is perhaps a revision ---if they cannot coos up with qualified candidates for those positions, perhaps In the criteria should be ate-e:saninsd, because it is biased one way or another. I am not saying that only myself. I am supporting what I am saying with this idon't know hew sassy hundreds of thousands of dollars was spent, ------ Mr. Lloyds We hoard the fact Ns. Faulk just say, that the tests are being re.enonM od. I think we are beating a dead horse, but ----- Nei Pantos ----sad w ars gaily to keep hsatte& a dead horse. 1 think that the last time they that made a rs-sawlnatton of the test, in the case o reporter 30 OCT 2 -19i= pollee force, they sent to Chicago q commission, to revise the test that would not be biased against minorities. Once we started, or the City started implementing that tent, the results even more adverse to minorities than the original test, So we have to get Ae1Me results and not just re-examine the exaMinitinns, and send it back to Chicago. Mr. Paulkt I can't respond to that you are indicating is that although the the University of Chicago Industrial re when it was administered here locally. on minorities than the test that the Ci . If 1 under~ t eod v test that WAS drat lation center, was There is a higher vil Service nfflt( Mr. Panda: lou put it better than I did. Mr. Paulkt That is the way I understood vou. ;,u correctly, what ted, put together by product of their'. -ate of adverse impact used to administer. Mr. Pando:The implication is not that the original test, or the civil Service Board was fair, the implication is, we have to t ind out whether this teats are at all useful. I think that is the implicatio of what 1 am saving. Mr. Paulk: You are speaking of the police of i let r Mr. Pando: I am speaking of that test, hut I am also now a:ir:res ; i tt}.: since we are talking about the test, the fire department, how people rank in that register. Mr. Paulk: I understand that. There is nothing we can project- at this moment other than we will take into consideration, all of those things in redesigning that test based on the necessary skills that are identified to he necessary to function as a firefighter, and we will test on that premise, but they haven't been thoroughly been identified as of now, we anticipate to br completed with that by the end of this month. Mr. Pando: Who has been commissioned to come up with a new tcsk: Mr. Paulk: There ate personnel officers in the Civil Service office are studying the job in the fire department among representative sample; firefighters and fire officers throughout. who of Mr. Pando: I teach at Florida International University in a program that deals with ethnic minorities. It is part of the department of psychology and testing is one of the things they are good at. I think if you want some help on that, I'll be glad to make the necessary contacts to provide you with that help. Mr. Paulk: Thank you. Mr. Lloyd: Is there anything further on Item 2-B:' If no further questions on that, we say proceed to item 3. Mr. Padgett and members of your team, and ladies and gentlemen. there is one area where we have a problem with as far as the law department is concerned, in 3A, the testing requirements, and you folks in the audience will notice where it has been underlined, and if you will go to the supplement that was handed out this morning, you will note what has been suggested as an alternative by the law department. And at this particular point as far as Mr. Padgett and his team and myself, and city representatives are concerned, we are in disagreement as to that. so it is under discussion. In vier of the fact that everybody has that, are there any questions as to either what Mr. Padgett end his teem have indicated in their proposal for a consent decree and what has been proposed as a counter proposal. Are there any questions. ----this is respect only with a testing procedures and in line with those 1.2.3.4 lints which are underlined. The basic difference is in our thinking between the Justice Department and the thinking of the Law Department is, that our thought is, that with respect to the criteria as established in the Griggs Case, and I believe later in the Albemarle case that generally speaking, these standards established by equal opportunity commission with respect to guidelines on employee selection procedure. particular testing. are entitled to great deference er great weight. gad our suggestion is that that is what should be Riven these, rather than an absolute criteria. That is the difference in the opinion at this time. and Ian open for suggestions on that one. at. Padgett* it is our position. the EEOC guidelines are the law as emaciated by WC and has been upheld by the Supreme Court in the caste that be bee stated, and ve are insisting that the FEW guidelines 31 OCT -1975 be the criteria by which any test is validated. if it doesn't meta the tlOC guidelines, it isn't validated. if It doesn't come nut to, cat come part of the way, it isn't a validated test. Mr. Lloyd: If there are no questing, that will still remain open Me. Padgett and we will have to go before the commission on that one for a final determination. Mr. Faulk: Mr. Lloyd, i think thin is a rather critical issue and I would like to relate that to at least one incident whereby the Civil Service hoard did authorize us, althrught we use an examination, we did not rank the pepople ,--there was a rendum referral ft.'m a register for police officer, an examination that was administered hack in 19'4, in March, as best as I recall and the means of referring people who participated in an examination has,--althought the results were not used to refer people, ■ssry people who may have been identified as unreferrablc, because the: would not have qualified, caused some severe problems to the city in anxiety due to the fact that we normally have renedered some of them not qualified to be considered for employment and they ultimately were employed and iiaki to be separated because they could not cope with the training that a poi officer oust undertake at the institute, and if we multiply that tirr&:; the nuaber of kind of examinations we do administer, 1 think it would be very pressing on the people who are being put into positions that they may not be capable of handling and it is a waste of a lot of energy on the part of the City and on the part of that person, and in those particular instances, we did lure some people into jobs and then had to displace them, by letting OHO go, and it was not a very healthy situation and i am very concerned about the total eliminating of testing, and feel that would not ho in the best interest of the community of the people, and of the City administration to do that and t believe that the language that the law department has put together would give credence to evaluation of our examination process to make certain that they, as they presently exist, are job related, until such time as examinations can be assessed, that presently exist, completely, the various jobs that do exist, can be studied through the process of test analysis, and restructuring examinations in compliance with the EEOC guidelines. I think it would be far better all the way around, not to contain the provisions to exclude testing, because it has not met the test EEOC guidelines that must demonstrated to be able to continue the use of the tests. I think it would put this whole coamnunity to state of unrest, if it were to take place, and I have serious concern about luring someone into a job who may not be able to stay in that job. Mr. Padgett: We aren't saying, there is no where in here does it say you can't use tests. What it says you tests that have adverse impact on minorities unless they have been shown to be job related. That is something different than saying you can't use tests. 1 think you should read 3 and 3 together, Mr. Paulk: Let's read A, --'the city shall discontinue the use o! any written examination for employment or promotion which has an adverse impact on 'lecks, Latins. or women, unless it can be shown to be shown to be predictive of successful job performance or can otherwise be shown to be job related in accordance with the standards established by equal employment opportunity commission in its guidelines on employee selection procedures', and that is the thing I am concerned about. Mr. Padgett: If the tests are not predictive of what they are supposed to be predictive oft what are you using them for. Mr. Paulk: t as not saying they are not job related. they are job related, but they certainly at this point, we have not gone through the entire sphere of operation that is required under ROC guidelines to validate the test. Mr. Padgstt: We would even question that they are job related if, unless sufficient shames of minorities aro passing the test. unless there is something else we are not aware of. Mr. Faulk: I understand. !lit. Padgtts So what we am's saying is. it isn't you can't uee tests. we aro just asktag that you use tests that are predictable to what they are *opposed to be wain thaw for. I mean predictive of the job that you are hiring people for, mad to 3 w are saying that you vita coattewal to give tests, for research basis. mid thts kind of thing.----- OCT 2.197- Mt. Povlkt Let ems ask you this, P1r. Padgett, suppose we have a test that we feel relative certain that it has job validation for the particular job, and we administer test for research purposes only, and yet the results are not used to sake a mesa. of ranking the people for referral, because further on in here you indicate the results that are not to be sham to anyone other than for research only, that swans that anycme who takes that examination, regardless of how well they do on that examination, may also be referred, as t described to you in the examination we gave for police officer some year and a half ago, and I am saying that that within itself is going to pose tremendous problems to this community. Mr. Padgett: In the test you are using as an example, the one you are talking about itt the police department, it was my understanding if 1 understood it correctly, you did not even, you didn't use the results of tests as the basis for selecting the people. The people were selected at randum. Mr. Paulk: That is correct. Mr. Padgett: --so for all intents and purposes, the test was not even used. Mr. Paulk: Well it was for our research, and what 1 am saying to you Ls that -- Mr. Padgett: ----that is what a predictive study does, Mt. Paulk: Right, and there were 239 people that participated in that and everyone of them were referred because they were not ranked pass or fail. nor ranked numerically according to how well they did, so there were some people who were in very low percentile, in the 2 percentile, that actually were employed as police officers, and they should not have been. The were lured away from jobs and they were employed and I am saying to you, Mr. Padgett: --was it on the basis of the test, though, if you had a predictive, --- Mr. Paulk: We could have projected that that would have occured, although we did not. Mr. Padgett: gut if you had a test that Was predictive, it would have done the same thing. right? Mr. Paulk: Yes, and I think the test we admintstered was predictive, what I am simply trying to put across to you now, is that is only one test, although there is a high turn -over to police at that time, and we did exhaust the entire register, but when we have almost 250 classifications of which there are about ISO entrance examinations. audit we have to proceed with ad- ministering of teats, and not use that as a basis of referral, we have to refer some people who otherwise should not have. because it is fairly certain. that they will not be able to perform. than we will have lured someone perhaps away from employment. I am not talking about the person who is unemployed, but taking someway' away from an occupation where their livelihood is now being made. they cannot return to that job. Mr. Padgett: I understand what you are saying. and what you are saying is, if I understand it correctly. you had people who almost couldn't mead and Mt. Pauli:: Paulks I hate to put it that way. but in some instances,--- Nr. Padgett: i think everyone here understands,--- Nt. Faulk: I ate puttied it la tents for instance. there were some Latin people. and within their triples., there could be no question, at least in my sated that they may be able to do encepttosally we/1, and I an not assessing people who took that teste but in the English language, that is 'Aunts used. at the institute, mad that is what is required at this moment to be a police officer with the City of Nta.t, tt he cannot communicate, verbally. in writing and they don't hews these skills. thee it is very difficult forthen to gat tbroisgh the institute and communicate with supervisors, co-workers, etc. and the public, slam* 1 umderstand there are people in the community who don't speak 4eglish, OCT!197. here certainly is a desire on the part of the deparw.'r.t to haw people ak Spanish, so T understand that, but neverthel.c!.r•., there were some who scored low in English language who probably had that necessary :r.,tteri i1 u;t here to do exceptional well in their own language, but it is not tittered, :and we lured ,otae people away on that basis. Mr. Padgett: T have a suggestion, in the period of t:-L while you were attempting to , one of the things you want to de iq .on, up with an alternative method of selecting people who does not have an :idversiyt• impact as some of the written paper and pencil exams. For example,rr;il interview hoards, or could establish the proficiency of the person in English, in understanding commands and carrying out a commands given in English, those kinds eithings. Those things will clearly have less an impact than s;+v the ;,.3per and pencil test. Mr. Paulk: I understand what you are saving, but nevertheless,-- let's assume there was a means by which that sort of exmi oat ion could be established it is still a test, it's oral, and if its rated, it ranked, and it one is ranked in accordance to how well they communicate verbally through at'- oral examination and understanding --if we comic up with someone who cannot, end we cannot use those results for referral, we have still done the same thing. Mr. Padgett: Only in the !tense that you are using it `er,----.is _3 research Mr. Paulk: I understand that, I understand the research apseet of it, Mr. Padgett: Let's not get into say, what it takes to validate An exam. I clearly don't want to do that . That is left for the experts to do. and i suggest what you want to do, is ask them for alte rnat ivi s to ;t c• i d crack that you see yourself being put in. Mr. Paulk: I am not asking them for alternatives, because they are not on us at this moment. It is the Justice Department and Treasury !apartment that is asking that we eliminate testing. Mr. Padgett: It is my understanding you have hired these experts to do exactly that. Mr. Paulk:You are talking about the University of Chicago Mr. Padgett: No, no, no, --but they are being hired to do,--may1-0 it. is Miami International University, if they were hired, and if you are going to do a predictive validation study or a validation study of a particular exam , one of the things you mmy want to ask them is what method could we use to select people that would be help for you in this validation study and for use to catty on on our needs. or carry to carry out city functions. There is clearly a basis for you doing that. Mr. Paulk: You believe it is contained within this section when, it states the city shall discontinue the use of any written examination for empioyement or promotion, which has adverse impact on Blacks, Latins, or women. Mr. PadNetti We say written examination, because that is what we have fouled are the evidence we believe has shown has been the big stumbling block to the opportunities of Latins and Slacks, -.....there is another stage where it talks about physical standards . Mr. Paulk; Yes. I am not concerned with that at this moment. Mr. Pandos Just one Question. I got a little bit confused here, the gentleman from Civil Service is sayinj. is that you will continue testing. it will ant be the criteria for hiring. the testing will done only for research purposes. Mr. Paulks That is what Nr. Padgett is saytag.,--that is what is being .aid In this consent decree. that is correct. Mr. Padaetts We have found that the written instruments that are creating 34 OCT 2 *. re•identified as barriers. because they don't have anything want to, if he hires somebody to tent, what do you suggest we use use in your study. What he Is suggesting is that need then, better and what 1 am suggesting that he may test, is to Gate, we hnvo to step givin this in the meantime and would he something peat could Mr.Pandotl agree with you. i think we all knnw the test (Ian show whatever the person who designs the test wants it to show. we have people who gay that Slacks are less intelligent than Anglos, based on tetA in ;, and that is utterly ridiculous, of course but there are people who say that, and 1 think we should not let that type of mentality creep into this kind of. Mr. Paulk: You are saying in effect, written tests Arc Alla I un:ler:;tand what you are saying. Mr. Pando: 1 am saying it is quite a challenge to eit'sirtn a test that is not culturally biased and so far we have not done that well, tryinw to design those tests. That is what I am saying. Mr. Paulk: Are you suggesting that oral tests are better. Mr. Pando: i don't know. Mr. Paulk: That is what it boils down to, that is what Mr. Padgett suggesting. Mr. Pandos One of the problems we have with all the tests, is that sometimes the people who are testing just ask whatever questions they feel like. That has been the procedure in the past with the police academy, before people enter the police academy, they are subjected to an oral test in which they area asked any kinds of questions, there are no records kept, so really nobody knows what happens in there. Mr. Padgett: The only time I am saying that you use some other selection criteria other than say this written test, during that period of time, when the written test you have been using is shown not to be predicative and until you come up with some predictive, --during that period of time, so there will not be diminution of the effectivness tearing out it mandated responsibility to come up with something to fill that gap. That is all we are talking about. Mr. Pando: Let me ask you a question to the Civil Service gentleman, do you agree that the test that so far have been applied are culturally biased against minorities? Mr. Paulk: Culturally in one respect, to be sure. yes, one who i; proficient in Spanish and not proficient in English, yes, it is biased, there is no question about that. Mr. Pando: How about Slacks. they speak English too, --- Mr. Paulk: Yes, In some instances it may be, not in all instances, but it could be in sons instances. Mt. Pando:How can you explain the results when Latins have a language problem in English, --- Mr. Faulk; Ws have Anglo Saxons who cannot cope with these examinations either. We have Slacks who can, Latins who can. and Anglo Saxons who can't and there are sone in all of those groups who cannot. Nt. Pandas i am talking wham there is effect on minorities. That is what 1 am talking about, how can you explain that disparity effect, — Mt. Faulk: At this plot 1 cannot without looking it the different types --wr-.r Mr. Pandos 1 think the burden of the truth is on your side to prove that this tort in not culturally biased. 1 can Daly go by the results. The results Shaw it has a disparity effect on minorities. Mt. Lloyds Nr. Paytt mad 1 both agree this cannot he capable of resolution ee we will cautious. 1 might add that with r•opect to the root, right dove through 35 OCT 2 1, 2 and 3, as far as I am concerned legally, !have no problem. Education requirements, let me check, t don't believe we have any problem there either, ----Mr. Paulk t don't recall that we had an requirements, --B 1 at referring to, page 6, education requirements,--- Mr. Paulk: Yes, we do have, in some instances, there are jobs that require college educations, certain types of degrees, State law requires high school edvcationi for police officer and likewise requires it for firefighter. but for a lot of jobs it is not required, but there are many ,jobs that it is required. a law degree to become a lawyer in the City of Miami, so many different things. Mr. Lloyds Well, very possibly we can straighten that out here,--- 1 at reading and I am trying to cover all angles, ' i f the city shall discontinue the use of an education requirement for any position for which such a degree or diploma is unnecessary,--- Mr.Paulk:I don't have any problem with that, I don't think the court does. Mr. Lloyd: Obviously a diploma and a license is required tor a person to practice medicine or law, and in some instances some kinds of licenses are required for plumbers, electricians and that kind of thing, and this would not cover anything of that nature, the way I understand it, is that correct Mr. Padgett? I think we are satisfied with that. Mr. Paulk: We will run into some problems once again when this is done to the elimination for instance in clerical jobs, for the most part it has required high school education for a long,long time and where we are competed to eliminate the high school requirement, we may have many people who come in to reek clerical positions who really are uneducated in some instances and will not be able to perform and if we cannot test to ascertain whether they can perform, we have one problem. There are Anglo Saxons who are illiterate, there are blacks who are illiterate, and I presume there are some Latins, although I don't know any that are illiterate. And I don't say I know any blacks or whites, but it is safe to assume there are some who did not go to school, and did not get education. And education is required to do filing. I am not saying how much education, but some education is required and if we can't test to ascertain the predictability of one's success, in functioning as a clerk, we have a problem. llr. Lloyd: Mt. Paulk let me ask you this, I notice here it does say the city shall continue to review job descriptions for the purpose of evaluating the need for a high school diploma or equivalency certificate or associate or bachelor's degree as a general qualification for employment, and for certain types of clericals, on paragraph 1 under A it says the city may continue to use skill tests of actual job content, for example, typing or filing, may I assume Mr. Padgett that is not limited to those things. That is just an example. Mr. Paulk: I understand, typing and taking shorthand, and driving a vehicle, a few things that can be demonstrated, obviously would be able to be used, and one that types generally has sons education, and shouldn't have difficulty, but all positions don't require typing. Mr. Padgett: There is nothing wrong, we will say if you are talking about supply clerks,----- Untdentifted person: We can't hear you. Mr. Padgett: I said there is nothing wrong with the situation where you have a parts supply clerk handling parts. ---- Mr. Paulks I understand.---- Mi. Padgett: There is nothing wrong with having another kind of clerk where the skills require a uetqu•.--and where there is a job experience requirement demanding that job experience requirement. $ut where that person has a job experience requtremeat, that doesn't have. say may not have a high echoes diploma. that is part of what we are saying. Minorities usually have the job experience in many taataaces. Mr. Faulk: i am trying to say i don't have any problem of the elimination 36 OCT 2- of the high school education, personally for any job, except where it is required by law, however in the elimination of that, it certainly opens the door to a wide diversification of people from all backgrounds who mad• or may not have education, or some, or none. Tha poses a problem, when we must abandon our normal testing process and refer them regardless of how well one might do. Mr. Llrgd: I think Mr. ,leremco would like to SAV something. Mr. Jeremco: I know that in the last few months we have eliminated high school requirement on one, so if you are going to put in the context that we shall continue to review it, I think that is the continuation of our present policy. I don't find any problems with that sentence. Mr. Lloyd: What do you think Mr. Paulk. Mr. Paulk: I don't have any problem with it, ---reviewing it in ascertaining what is required, a certain amount of education is required for certain positions but it Comes back that if we feel a clerk 11 needs to be a high school graduate because we are having a tremendous amount of applicants who by elimination of tests, by elimination of the requirement of presenting themsolvos for employment, but yet cannot read adequately to be able to function in the typing and advancing of correspondence etc. then we will have a problem. Mr. Padgett: It says right down there at the bottom of that paragraph, it says the results of review shall be submitted to council for plaitif along with, refers to report required under this decress and what we are attempting to do, if later you find out you need that, you can come back and say we really need that, in the reading of the deed, we have been getting people who are seventh grade skills and need something more than that. Mr. Paulk: I take the opinion that someone who has a good education through the 7th grade should have no difficulty. Mr. Padgett: No, I am not saying, ---- Mr. Paulk: But I do, I am saying that. Mr. Padgett: I am saying if you have a job that is so sophisticated ON. -- I am saying a clerical position that because of the changes of the job requirement and a number of other things where you need to institute, -- maybe you need a college graduate. or something like that. That has never been our intent nor have we ever stated that. Mr. Paulk: Is it to be assumed then that. if we feel it is necessary for certain kind of academic achievement that we must secure you permission to be able to make that determination, is that what you are saving. MR. Padgett: If you are raising standards. yes, Mr. Paulk: Well. we are not. Mr. Padgett: The example you are using. you are thinking of a situation where you are indicating you may have to raise standards or standards or something like that. Mr. Paulks Jut the standards as they presently exist. there are some that require high school, some do not. leave those stand as they are. review them on s continuing basis, and diminish them --- Mr. Padmstt: -and wake sure they stilt demand that, Mr. Paulks-diminish them as it is possible to do so, without serious adverse impact. 1 don't see that is any problem. Mr. Crouch* Mr. Padgtt do I understand that your interpretation of ibis educational requirement is that the national numbers involved in certain kind of educational attainment will not is inself make the use of that educational r.qutrsssst tswlid tar ------ Mr. !admtts--is a particular situation. if the job and the skills neees require that. --- rY 37 OCT 2-17 Mr. Crouch: but nationally if we have a certain attainment and wc know that only 502 1 don't think we have any problems with that one. Ms. Nicole --except you have to realize that the academy is not under the direct control of the Miami police department, it is administered by the S. Florida Institute of criminal Justice located at the ! . Campus of Miami Dade Community college and we have input into the running of that academy but do not control it. Mr. Lloyd: That is one minor problem. i think wry all agree .as tar :as the city is concerned that is the way it should he be. Capt. Kt'cFe, 10 you have any knowledge that it is not that way? Capt. Reese: There is an advisory hoard that govern the eel it•y out there. We do have input but not direct control. Mr. Lloyd: What do you think about that problem? Mr. Padgett: The point is this, even though we understand that the city doesn't have absolute control, the city has a greal 01 input into poiloy And training at the academy and anything we are agreeing to here on t',e terms of non-discrimination we think if the ,academy isn't doing that, maybe you should really consider whether you want to be in it anyway, because the academy is violating the law. We don't see where that is necessarily going to be a problem and the city recognizes it as a problem maybe the city should consider other alternatives. Mr. Crouch: You would then consider the ;academy to t c one of the persons in active concert or participation, Mr. Padgett: There is an example where the ;academy (inaudible) Mr. Crouch: --so you consider that to he, and if we find there are problems that we can't comply with then we would have to set up our own academy or training facility. Mr. Padgett: I don't say that, but 1 may you should try to make every effort to work those kind of problems out with the academy or clearly bring it to our attention and say you can't comply. Mr. Lloyd: Any further discussion on that? I think we can agree on that one on that basis. On 4-Assignment which is open, Mr. Paulk, this was one where, if I remember correctly on the basic concept, there was no particular problem but we did have a problem on the concept of the definition of assignment. Mr. Faulk:That is correct. Mt. Lloyd: And I think it might be helpful if you would be able to give your definition of assignment at this tinge. I think this is where he begin to think about the idea of having a glossary of terms, wasn't it. Mr. Paulk We brought sone definitions. Civil Service rules, an assignment in effect is the placing of someone in a given classification. in a job somewhere within a department wherever that night be. hut an appointment is appointing someone into a probationary position and there is confusion on the part of this. so we want to rectify that to the full understanding that as you were. your perctption was of assignment was actually the employing of someone. and personnel are assigned following their employment. They may be assigned in one place of a department. reassigned in another place hut within the same job family or same classification rather. 1 think appointment into a probationary position would be the kind of definition that we would want to have in here. and 1 have that over in my brief case. (let me get it).--- 11r. Lloyds Mr. Iaulk you don't have any other difficulties with assisnaaent as long as we ksov what it is do you. In other words, if you agree that we should be assigning these on the basis of fairness and in line with gildsi lass Mr. caulks That is employing or the appointment and it +should not be amassment. 1 dem't know that assignment needs a del clarification 38 OCT 2 19l of what that is. Mr. Padgett: 1 thought we were using the word ,;,;sirnr+.ent.. under . ,ur civil service rules it means one thing and under title 7, rase law, it menn5 something else. That is where the problem comr'G in. What we wore going to do is, you were going to find, that gott of 3gsirntr..'nt is r;►pint. t l he under the terms of a title 7 definition. We have no ronflir t wit!; tho wr•rd assignment as it is used by the civil service board, but what we ;Lrt• .,n in.:, in terms of title 7 act has a legal meaning. Mr. Harrison : Mr. Padgett it has two legal meanings, even though the federal law is a law, so are civil :service etdinnnevA are 1n: in this; city. Why not deal with both of those definitions in your wording. Mr. Padgett: You obviously didn't 1 i ten t:, whit i slid. Mr.Harrison : I obviously didn's understand what you said. is what th problem is, I listened very well. Mr. Padgett: Maybe the problem is with the listener not the talker, or speaker. Now, what Isaid was, under title 7 there is .t definition ter the word assignment and this action is being tursued en the basi" of title 7. We have no problem with the Civil Service Board's definition rat the ward assignment. Mr. Harrisc tUhat isn't the assignment we are talking rabo►►t. In your definitions that you alluded to, that you are going to provide , there should be no problem with you defining assignment if assignment in Civil Service means one thing and different under title 7, it should be clarified in your definitions so we are talking about the same thing. Mr. Padgett: That is what a definition does. Mr. Harrison : Is it your intention to do that? MR. Padgett:That is what a definition does. Mr.Harrison : I know what a definition does, but I also know what happens in consent decrees, and I am asking you is it your intention to clarify that point on that bests. Mr. padgett: We definitely intend to clarify it. Mr.Harrison: I have one question to Mr. Lloyd, when you say you are agreeing to these things, are you agreeing to concept of the wording as press'nted here. Mr. Lloyd: We are agreeing ----I am not agreeing to anything, actually accept tam agreeing that we will as far as the concept goes according to the wording recommended to the City Commission, then of course it is up to the---- I have no authority to agree to anything, but I am saying 1 will agree to submit it to the City Commission for approval or otherwise. Mr.Harrison : My understanding is you are agreeing to concept and not the wording that is presented here, is that what you are telling me? Mr. Lloyd: As far as I am concerned, I am saying that 1 am satisfied in here also with the wording, because words delineate what the concept is. Am I not correct' Mr.liarrlson ; No. Mr. Lloyd: Well if limy. -- Mr. $older: Mr. Lloyd, speaking for the Fraternal Order of Police.---- lhave no intention to agreeing to the wording that is here. Concepts are different nutter, but the wording presented here, I have great exception to. Mr. Lloyd; ANY place where you have exception, 1'd ha• please to have you mote it. OCT 2*fit Mr. Harrison: I will Bit. Mr. Lloyd: Perhaps you want to do it here, that is what we are here for, and then if we decide we want to change it, then we .hang it, see Would like to make some statements here? 1 am assuming by your silence you are agreeing to --- Mr. Harrison: No sir, I made it very clear at the least meeting, 'ov my ailtnce there is no reason for you to assume 1 an. in agreement with anything. My understanding is you are discussing and Raining input, discussing concepts and t have no problem with that. When we get down to the artunl wording of the consent decree, I think there are some hard negotiations that have to take place. Mt. Padgett: I think maybe you had better assume that these words, if they are agreed to are pretty close to what they are going, to come looking like. Mt. Harrison: If that is what we are talking about in negotiation', then I don't think, if we have negotiations, then it my signature is required for a consent decree, it is not going to be there. 1t is that simple, and 1 think there is nothing else to say. Mr. Lloyd: All right, where are we on this assignment situation? As I understand it we are at the point where, according to what title 7 says, Mr. Padgett: --yes, taking, in recognition of the Civil :service Board, Mr. Paulk: In assignment as relates to title 7, that is figuratively speaking, the employing of some one, ---- Mr. Padgett: No, it means, --for example, the example we have been using for assignment, it can include the word employ but it means more than that. Por example in the Sanitation Dept. we say that 807 of the employees were minorities. Under Title 7 what that means is that there has been, or what we have said, is there a policy of the city to assign and/or hire blacks disproportionately into the Sanitation Dept. Okay? Unidentified person: (inaudible) --hire into the sanitation department but also assigning lads to the job of garbage toting as opposed to trash collect ion, --- Mr. Paulk: 1 understand that. That is definitely an assignment and 1 understand that. Mr. Padgett: It is broader than that and it includes a term that I used. Mr. Paulk: Well, yours is all encompassing. Assignment is the in -hiring and the placing of people after they are hired, and 1 understand that. But I think there needs to be some clear cut language put in here that will identify the employ language, which is the appointment into a probationary position, and a reassignment within that given job. Mr. Padgett: I think that comes closer to what your civil service board's definition of assignment is, and that is the reason I am saying it. hr. Paulk: We really don't have that, a definition. There was a provision within the rules that spoke to assignment or reassignment but insofar as that was concerned it was the movement of an individual who was in a given classification from one physical to another. although it wasn't stated that way. That is in effect what it is. One may be reassigned from one department to another by the City Mangier, on the other hand, that could be tranf•rred from one department to another. IN other language, it could be construed to be a transfer inter- departmental. For instance one who is assigned to fire station No.S may be transferred by reassignment to fire station No. N. Mr. Padrtts That clearly may not have anything to do with a discriminatory ------dLacrim4Ntortly. being assigned, so we aren't tacking about the sane thing whom we are discussing is that vein. Mr. hulks. -although it could he 40 OCT 2-197S Mr. Padgett: It could be, but under the normal definition of how that is used, it does not mean. After we get into the definition of the word assignment, we maybe want to re-lnok at it, then risk the question in light of that definition. Okay? Mr. Paulk: All right. Mr. Lloyd: Ithink 1 neglected to say something for the record too Lt. Harrison. I think he Is probably just outside there, let me Nay that obviously I can't agree to do anything but submit something; to the city, ---- (Mr. Weinsoff, I am stating that obviously I can't agree tor ,nvhrd‘ , rust less agree for you to sign anything, or agree to the warding for you, to anything. I am not attempting to do that. You under stand that.) Mr. Weinsoff: Will there be a meeting tomorrow? 1 am going to Ft. Lauderdale, so 1 won't be able to come hack tomorrow un le;s it Ls a necessity. Mr. Padgett: We want to get through this, and then we want the rite to be able to say they can agree to the rest of it, or can't agree with the rent of it, or with a little more work, we would be satisfied. Mr. Wefnsoff: That is very important. Mr. Padgett: We hope to go longer this evening. Mr. Weinsoff: We are going to have someone herd, hut what t .►r.: :one rned about.. is I think we should have some time to reflect some the renark:; that were made here and perhapd give time to set a position paper, r►s, to what changes should be recommended, so counsel for the +:i ty cool(' then digest what the various organizations and groups would like to have °nrort,or,7tcd hurt, and Mr. Padgett: You have an opportunity to represent \•onrsei t your name is a defendent. Mr. Weinsoff: 1 would like to have that opportunity, 1 am sure !hero were others who would like to have that oppportunity with regard to various aspects. For example, the age, I am not so sure that you have the jurisdiction to deal with the age, discrimination, becaue you stated earl ie: today that you ------the age was covered by the labor department or something like that. Mr. Padgett: You are addressing a different question. Mr. Weinsoff: I understand but I mean, that of curse is a gray area, and we have had no input. Certainly the charges that originally were made on July 11, do not bring it to our attention. My original question was are we going to meet tomorrow, or will that depend on how long we stay tonight? Mr. Padgett: It is obvious we are going to meet tomorrow too, but we intend to stay late this evening also. Mr. Weinsoff: Will we be given an opportunity to present these position papers. Mr. Lloyd, I think you are the Chairman, it is up to you. Mr. Padgett: You Seel, to assume that this is a City council meeting. That isn't exactly what is going an here. Mr. Weinsoff: I understand this is a quasi -something meeting. the nature of which Ls very difficult to define. MR. Padgett: True. -- Mr. Weistsoif s--therefore I am taking the liberty of asking whether we will have the opportunity to present such a document. then we will have had a full opportunity. Mr. Padgett; The City or the t:overwnent, there :ire two di:lerent part lea, --- Yr. Mi;VinS t; 1 think wa would be IntA2rcsted it, prov!ding it for 4 both of you. Mr. Padgett: In how long a period of time are you t i i k inEt about Mr. Weinsoff: Two weeks,••- Mt. Padgett: 1 don't think that is acceptable. Mt. Weinsoff: 1 understood yesterday when Mayor Farr; was ',etc, by your silence that you accepted the fart that it may run as :ong as mouth before a final decision would be made by the city. Mr. Padgett: I was not asked to speak on that partiku.lr point. Mt. Weinsoff: Now fast do you want these documents. Mt. Padgett: I think you are already aware of this, that you are named as a defendant for certain purposes that I would be taking an active part in this, or recommending that people do otherwise. t 7n't tell you what to do. itc. Weinsoff: I know, we will submit it in any event , but how long a period oftime before any action is going to be taken? Me. Padgett: If we are able to resolve or not resole the matter to everyone's staisfaction within the next couple of hours, we may each agreement or may go our separate ways. Mr. Weinsoff: What I understood was , that you came down here for dicsussion purposes and now we are backed up again a wall and in a couple of hours, if it is a law suit, it is a law suit, it makes no difference, but if that is the position the Justice Department is going to take. I don't understand why you came down here. The Treasury Department is sitting there, 1 can see for no other reason, than a threat, there has been no input from the Treasury Department, sitting here, if you don't sign the agreement, we are going to cut off the city'c funds. Ms. Marie Davis: Excuse isle sir, I would like to address myself to that, Mr. Padgett, and 1 and Ms Jamieson represent the Government as a whole, --- Mr. Weinsoff: I understand that. Ms. Davis: Anything that Mr. Padgett is saying he is represtntin4 the Treasury Department as well as the Justice Department so, he is our speaker. 1 have nothing to say. Mr. Weinsoff: That is my position. We will submit a paper, regardless of what you do. MR. Lloyd: I think we are on the basis of the Sanitation Department at this time. I have submitted to the Justice Department which I believe Mr. Dogger you have • copy of, is a suggestion which is not in itself complete and 1 believe Mr. Paulk you were going to add some input to that. Mr. Paulk you were going to add sons input I believe to our Sanitation Department's suggestion and I am informed that I as+ in error on one thing I have here, and it is in their copy. Waste Coll.cto I, that has been discontinued as simply Waste collector now. 1 think that is a more detail. Mr. Paulk: Just to clarify sanitation operation, and I know Mr. Dug`er is here. at the present time. waste collectors are employed from stand-by laborers who arm selected from people who show up on the lot, on the necessity to keep the garbage picked up. that is how the positions are filled, are from the standbys. It is seldom, if at all. that we have referred applicants for waste collector from the Civil Service office because that posture has been by-passed through this process. So that is where waste collectors are employed from and the people who dsmomstrato their desire to function in that role as a waste collector demonstrate that by being there to function es standbys. That is their source, that is ackaowlag.d. that has been going on for many years. Waste collector has two assignnapts per se. ore picking up garbage. which is •• 42 OCT 2•1 S conrtonty referred to as a toter, and one who works In a less physical demanding job as alto who works on trash. And ideally, some three veers, or two vcxars ago, there were two classification that were merged into one, fr,'T waste cAlector 1 and waste collector 11 were merged into one classification with ideal concept being that there are nlnerous waste collectors who have !ott°d ,•3rha}*e for many years who are getting older and leas physically able too handle the task of toting garbage and we get to assignment then within they classification H. waste collector, the younger, more physically capable should be assigned to the toting responsibility and as thty grow older and less capable of handling that task, are t'hn placed into the trash. There has been some concern on the part - f the `i ri asf:ry Department that that has not been the case, through their investigation, that there have been people who have been hired in the same classification, but as<igned to the lighter work because they were white, And I think that is what w,s generated to to , or given to us when we were in Washington. If that is tie case•. that is wrong, The Civil Service Board has no knowledge of that, the Sanitation D';•artr t•r,t any: employees obviously do have. That should he corrected. That is ,:ot;u'tnin that the Sanitation Employee Assoc. is working to try to overcome, I am -tare that is what Mr. Dugger will indicate to you. Classifications above waste •',tl loot 'r above waste collector would encompass, not promotional, but a :;can; by which waste collectors could be moved upward to waste collector operator 1, thr :r,h career opportunity, it is not promotion, but may he construed as stach, t;:t t. collector operator II is the same through career opportunity, through upper mpHlity. They may move from waste collector 1 or operator 1 or waster collector and operator ti, and then there is waste equipment operator , which for the most part has been fill under the career opportunity and is not promotion. Above those four classifications we find sanitation foreman that at the present time, the Board has taken into consideration, permitting waste collectors, waste collector operator I, II and waste equipment operators to take promotional examinations for that position. That is something new that ii: s occured, that is the first true promotion from those 4 classifications. I cli± not ;our together anything for inclusion in this. 1 wanted to explain those circumstan'es and I think the sanitation employees association would enjoy participating in the wording of the arrangement by which waste collectors may evolve through that process, and I think they can speak for themselves, but 1 think they are ragrreah that the career opportunity has been advantageous in its operation in the past few years, and it has given upward mobility to many black waste collectors where previously it was not. At the present time when have no one who Is able to be moved upward to a waste collector operator I, II or equipment operator then they request for a register to be established. It is an open competitive register ----it is one that requires only demonstration performance in the oppration of the vehicle or vehicles that are utilized in that particular classification. There is no written examination and under those circumstances, those waste collectors who have not been given consideration under their career opportunity may compete in the demonstration examination. Some do and some don'.., there also is the avenue for the people who are not employed with the city :'r people who are employed in some other department to make application for those positions basrd on the experience required. So that outlines it fairly precisely, all we need to do is generate it in words that will be acceptable to the sanitation employees ---department,--representatives, the Civil Service Board etc. .and I think we can handle that without too much difficulty. What do you think Mr. bugger? Mr. T.J. Dugger: My name is T.J. Dugger, I am with the Sand*_ration Employees Association. With this NO. 4 that Mr. is already being done by the City, and what we ere really concerned with is the training program which have tried to organise in our department, in order to give waste col,ect':rs a step and some help and which is good for the city because this way you get good employees instead of people who are already there. away up.T am that man who is cocaine down on Saturdays and donating the time to the laborers, and truck drivers and crane operators. which we have promoted several men now into position as crane operators through this training program. We are not getting help through uaaugsmsnt personnel down there but we are doing it anyway. tooth and nail, fighting to do it, and another thing we are really concerned with that the foreman, in this classification, and through supervisor, administrative part in our department, which there are no black personnel involved in. WE have one black foreman. and in the office there is not administrative, or anybody submitting any kind of policy who is a black person. ---which is approximately SS or 902 of our personnel under the sanitation department are black people. They are the majority as far as labor which to a hard job. They are the majority as far as lobos but minority as tar as adniaistraing the policy in the desertion This is another of our coneer's, which i know you +already know, and is some of our concern too. Basically what Mr* lob hulk. ---he has worked real efficient 43 OCT 2•1975 with us and has helped us in a lot of ways, We have discussed t itl) hir, and we had a lenghty discussion with you .all which you have a hr icf outline on the way that things are done in our department, but nt! er thin that which he clarified the numbers as waste collector I and } l and :t uf f l ik' that, but I want to emphasize strongly that this training trot ray; whi •i: we are• trying to get going in our department, which we have very ptoplc who already have chauffeur license, and a majority of the T cnn drive trucks but we try to emphasize safety and other procedures whir-': a ,.iraee in turn turned, ••---we try to emphaliZe AS 'Mr as maintenance :nd t'rhing rare of the equipment, to help the garage in other department c Keo , they know who, or what is driving it, which we would like to tr•.• to pet :;olne help through our management personnel in our department, bw- cat hor than that what you have submitted as far as in this hearing we agree with and except for r-as foreman, and other than that I am sure we can •:nrk nt:: _ _ wording and other stuff like that. Unidentified person --inaudible Mr. bugger: We have worked out through Mr. }'.aul i( n'-; '':ir .#}bt'rors from No. 1, through truck drivers NO. 1 and laborers w•i t 1, c•r` .ii : arount of time that they have with the city to take this, hick wa Font t,. Mr. Paulk in the Civil Service Board. Mr. Paulk: The waste collector operator 1, and w.•,1;tc colic •Lyr o7eratc'r II waste equipment operator and sanitation inspectors are eligible Lo rake the examination for sanitation foreman. There is a diffcrcnti;=.tinr, in what was approved by the Board insofar as time within those respective ohs :n being eligible to take the examination for sanitation f.'rfutan. :::'.GC• , rlict.crs and waste collector operator I must have 5 years service as identified in what was just recently approved, in either of those clasc,ifIcations or collectively in those classifications. Waste collector operator Ii and va-te eruf^nrent operators and sanitation inspectors was only required 3 years within those clasifications considering that for the most part the equipment operators and waste collector operator It's had come up through, although that is not :':ltogeehe.r true. There are some that were employed on the outside from open co:peiitiee rt4isters. They are involved in some supervision of the people that :ide t'.:eir vehicles as an operator II and as an equipment operator. So that was one nt the significant features or factors in the tine -in -grade requirement. They me more iamillar with the operation, more responsible to the operation an should have more knowledge than one who is a waste collector, and should 1,c. p king up nore knowledge because they are in more responsible positions thar the waste collector himself. I think basically those are the kind of ideas that were �.:agendercd in working up the means by which people would be eligible to take the examination. Mr. bugger: There was something else --something said dbn.:t, the white person. or people because they are white being moved to rubbish, ----this has been done, and we are trying to keep it down because we prefer anybody who comes to the sanitation department. first to put that sox on their shoulder. I did when !first cone there, and it is a rough job, and if you can hack that you can hack the rest of it. We like to keep the rubbish separate because after about 10 or IS years of toting a garbage box on your shoulder, you get worn out. It is very strenuous work. We prefer to keep that for the older people that can't hack it no more as a garbage toter. Mr. Paadegetts All we are trying to say is, everybody, it you come there. regardless of race , that you should do everything ,-- Mr. Uugger:----women too. if they want to tote, let them come on down. That Stan toting that box. he don't give a damn who is next to him, as long as he, or whatever, can put that box on the shoulder. and make it. we have Latin people down there, a few have made it. ---we have had no women there vet. I am sure sooner or Dater one is going to try. and if she can make it, the man don't cart who it is, as loaf as she pulls her side. It is rough work, and that box determines whether you are going to make it or not. Believe me. Mr. Paulk: the bard does in fact endorce the philosophy of upper mobility through career opportunity within that division. I believe there nay be s necessity, a safety valve where no one has sufficient training. there that .my be a necessity to provide for an exams not iota to fill these voids where they should occur, or where the training program is not producing. You disagrtt with that, Ougger, by any cfi: Lece t 44 OCT 2 -1 Mt. iluRger: No, ----the training program like I say, it will produce, and a lot more for the department if w* could by some r e.rn , or some way, Met some help from the department, and you really wouldn't have to go on to the outside, because that May the people In the middle would have A way to work theirtyelf up, >rverybody would have a chant:, in pother word, whoever it is. Unidentifed person: It seems to me we don't have anv iisat;reement anywhere Maki& Mr. lugger: The only other concern which I have and the other people have is about the adminstrative errors, --nobody who is a black person as ar as administrating any policy in our department. It seems 1iki there Is :► little thing in the office, or something, I don't know, but a•: tar as the language and establishing the language, there is no disagreement wit`, us. Unidentifed person: I gather that there Some minor problems in .•l:ts,-i- fication,---- Mr. lugger: ---the classification, with Mr. Paulk, he ah uut the waste collector and waste collector operator I, wit' collector operator ll, equipment operator and that is all. Unidentified person:Do you have any suggestion for how we can handle in this, the assuring that people who initially coma into the department do the toting first and move into rubbish and trash. My problem is that it appears to be the same job classification that is wastes collector, is that right? Mr. Paulk: You are talking about sanitation, --you arty talking .about rubbish and garbage. Unidentified female person:--yes,- Mr. hugger: They are all now, come in as waste collectors, that is what they are supposed to cam in as, because we had that change, and they art all suppose to come as waste collectors first, if they come into that department, .and through career opportunity then they move up to waste collector operators and so on up the line. Mr. Padgett: No, no, the question is a little different. We know everybody comes in as a waste collector 1, but how do you assure that somebody comes in as using your expression. toting a box, as opposed to picking up trash. MR. bugger ; We are supposed to have a register whice, limits u: to so many personnel., to use the extra as temporary employees to fill in for different people. This is where. --but they are supposed to be used onl!, on garbage, as totem If there is a man who is older. who can't hack anymore. they are supposed to get any of the rubbish men from older men, on garbage, what color don't make any difference. or who they are. If they are too old to hack a box, they are supposed to be moved on to rubbish. Sometimes they jiggle the books back there and the next thing you know we have this situation. Mr. Padgett; le that a union work rule, is that part of your collective bargaining agreement, or is that .---- Mr. bugger; This is part of our collective bargaining agreement, --- Mr. Padgett; Can you site to us a specific provision relating to that? Mr. Pater Jeffrey: I M Peter Joffrey from SEA. utat we have set up now is. when a aria Cones to work. right now. we have working with 25 extra men, be automatically goes into garbage. or we are trying to set it up that way and It is working patty good. There is no way to move into rubbish right now. Mr. Padgett; Is that in the collective bargaining agreement or just as understanding .--- 1tr. Jeffrey; It is aw uaderstamdieg. that we have been having with ;has. that anything that cones in, would be started in garbage. toting garbage. 45 •1.9 Mr. Padgett: lx that understanding with Mr. Vaulk or is that with Me. Jeffrey:---i-the department, no there is no written .`►F're('1 u t, this is an understanding. Mr. Dugger: In our department we are having an ahund.tn,.e t,t older toters that could not hit the box no more, ---I thought wu had an candcr,standing anyway, of taking the older man from garbage and moving him to ruhhish. tirmihow they jiggle the books, and the next thing, it looks like, and t h:tvt• tieen it myself and if you stood there and seen it, or anybody, what color or a woman, or what- ever, you could tee a bunch of white young bucks hitting the ruhhi' h tracks, and the blacks, Latina were hitting the garbage: trucks, ;:nJ s,,I.W0;in.11y gc,t a hold of it, and won't say we got it stopped, but they: „c:n' t do it ;,; often as they did before, so this is being done. Mr. Paulk: I just think it might be desirable if we .;et t‘!.,t•thk2i with the sanitation employees association and work up somerthin,: ini I ::n; r :re the Board would subscribe to that if I read them correctly, ii '. :cr as i,.>t mina that method that could be put into here, and there shouldhe n s i't L't t ism. Also endearing the philosophy of career opportunity, with a safety valve, so that if we are not fruitful in productivity insofar as training somcone In the leaser class to move up into the operator positions that we may be able to establish registers on performance basis from other employee. throughout the City or from outside as the case may be. There are some who ::iFIi, to move from one department to another who do have experience in operat inw some typo ot vehicles, so that could be arranged as well on an open competitive register. Mr. Jeffrey: I would like to see inspectors he taken away from the open competitive test, to be given strictly for promotion in s.nit;.tion and the way it stands now, it is open competitive, outside people could take this. and I feel this is depriving people in sanitation at the bottom to promote up. This is gives somebody else with a higher education a chancre to get a better mark and get ahead. Mr. Paulk: That can be considered by the Board, and I can't sav---- Unidentified female person: What employees are eligibly tctapply for that inspector, ---- Mr. Paulk: At the present time it has been filled by open competitive and those people, many of them could have applied for the job. I don't have the particular requirements down here but it wasn't that critical. Unidentified female person: Could a zoning inspector qualify for that? Mr. Paulk: Yes, by all means. It is open competitive, --- Mr. Padgett: Could a sanitation inspector go the other way? say zoning inspector. --- Mr. Faulk: No, sir. there may be an exception of one who may be a sanitation Inspector who might need criteria that a zoning inspector is, Mr. Padgett: What about health inspectors? Mr. !'sulk: We don't have health inspectors, so zoning inspector would be out in the field trying to resolve disputes, --- Mr. Jaffrey: 1 think at the present time very few of the inspectors we had really casts up the ranks. so i feel they must have a high school which •llsinates.----..-our job is altogether different. it is a hard job, there is no school to train anybody for it. you have to go out there and he strong at it. Mr. Paulk: That particular classification if one that has been open that the Used could consider as establishing through promotional obviously one who is inspector. does need to bass good ability to communicate with people because they are out there trying to resolve the problems. coaplatntb between netghbors,vhat problems thew are with regard to putting out certain things that shouldn't be in rubbish piles, and it is sonotking that as individual must be able to relate to people with. i am not saying that people aren't. who are waste collectors, there 46 OCT 2.1975 are many who are, don't misunderstand me, but it could he ennsidc,rt•d by the Board so it could be written up itt such a fashion, that the various classifications which could be identified be eligible to move up in sanitation inspectors, hut that is a matter right now we could take up, ( 1 don't meal 1t this 4aoment) with the Board, but in reviewing as is indicated in earlier provisions of till, con- sist decree, high school requirements etc. in reviewing those classifications, it is one that could be changed. Mr. Padgett: Anything else? Mr. Paulk: Aside from Peter .toff rev just mentioning that at „n , pt. to me within the past day, I don't think that the Hoard has over had any sort of request of that nature, on sanitation inspectors. Mr. Lloyd: Gentlemen, Mr. bugger and Associate, are we agreed (w the general concept here as what has been outlined in the proposal by the. Justice Department? Mr. bugger: Yes, the general outline, Mr. Lloyd: --we are just going to make some : hrmges in language then, — Mr. bugger: --and our concern about the administrative part, that there is no blacks, since the majority of the people In our department are *Mack, and about the training program, which I think is a benefit to the city, ---- Mr. Paulk: Let me ask you Mr. Padgett, Mr. Lloyd, would you 1 i;:e for u 4 to have a representative of our staff get together with sanitation, ----- Mr. Jeremco: We have been averaging about a page an hour, if l read this right we are going to be here till about 1 o'clock in the ;morning trying to get through this and I would like to suggest that a document of this importance shouldn't be handled in this manner. I would suggest we adjourn and meet here again tomorrow morning. Mr. Lloyd: In order to save some time, would it be possible for us to stay another hour or so, take a brief recess now, about 5 minutes, and we have a breaking point here and actually. Mr. Jeremco: We are not going to get through this in an hour or so anyway ---we are going to have to come back. so this is the reason T suggest. Mr. Lloyd: I am open to further suggestions. Mr. otis Davis: Mr. Lloyd. my name is Davis. I am president of MC PRA and I am going to have some problems with this, if you continue into the night. because ay attorney had to go handle some court cases, and lwould like to have him here whoa we get down to the items which we are almost about to now in order to discuss this. Mr. Lloyd: Now do you fool on that Mt. Padgett? Would anybody have any objection if we stayed here and got onto the reporting and recording keeping which really is an administrative procedure which --would you have any problems with that Mr. Jaromco. then if you need to leave, --we didn't discuss anything else but that? Mr. Davis: The only problem I would have Mr. Lloyd is. ---go down and start at page 12.--page 12 Ls quite a bit away. another hour we probably take up the otter two pages. Mr. Lloyds We wouldn't talk on that. the only thing we would go over to I think Ma. Jamieson's suggestion was we go over to page 14A. recording keeping. and we might be able to get that dons tonight and get that cleared off and we weld have a better chance of finishing tomorrow. That would probably take us and the reporting. 1 think maybe that will only take us maybe an hour or so. Would you tams any objections to that?? Mr. Jaremeo would you have any objections to that oar. Nt. Jarmos t Ny suggestion ins we are aat going to ftntt4 anyway so w, SW as Will case back with a fresh look. I personally an tired of the smoke In here. no whatever you decide on. I agree to. but I had ranter come back tomorrow 47 OCT 2 -1975 horning. Mt. Lloyd: All right let me ask this. Mr. Pandol l have one question, do you think w. will 1,t .atAt ,h tomorrow? Mt. Lloyd: This is what we are attempting too do. h,+t is ;shy t.q2 t igurcd on sitting a little longer this evening. Mr. Pandot I think we should try to get .a little more work today we could finish tomorrow, otherwise it will he Monday Mt. Lloyd: Mt. Jaremeo for the benefit for yourself and .ryselt : an tired of eating this smoke also. 1 wonder if we might request our two corn.at.riots to refrain from smoking for the rest of the evening, or ot sic',:''. Me. Nicol: May I ask a question, I am assuming :hilt another document is going to be produced based on the discussion which has gone on today and which will go on tomorrow, is that a correct assum?t ion? Mr. Lloyd: Let's not take any assumptions like that tonight. ----basically, yes, but what we are trying to do now is get As MC can tonight and we have planned on going on to the recording keepi to be administrative in nature and if nobody has env objection to i have satisfied Mr. Jaremco's which is my own, and I ref l e::t is, to take a 5 minute recess and see if we can't get the rccor1 k.. pi tonight. Let's go on h done as we n,' which appears it, and hopefully would like n,; dont: Mr. Harrison: If I might express my concern, ---certain problems are presented for me. Obviously you are going to hold a meeting tomorrow. I have some commitments that are pressing for me. I am on military leave, and 1 have ,o be in Ft. Lauderdale where my attorney went, left for, this evening. 1 would endorse going on this evening or to what Mr. Weinsoff said. 1 think it is more realistic to have position papers presented and further negotiations later next week. 't. is obvious the .rust ice Department took the time to go back and up -date their figures and brought document down to us. I think it is only fair that those opportunities be presented to us, that we might prepare a position paper and submit that. After all we are included as a defendant and to allow us one evening to present a position paper i5 highly unrealistic to say the least, and its additionally unfair. Unidentified: We would have been happy to receive position papers after our first sleeting here in early August. Mr. Harrison: The request was made by the Justice Department to go back and up -date their figures, and we waited for that. As a matter of fact. I had my attorney in Washington to review your files and we are waiting for in -put from you. We received this document a4 every other group did yesterday and now we are being asked to proceed at most haste to reach an agreement. i think .. we are going to be bargaining, in terms we used earlier today, in good faith, then there should be position papers presented and bargaining should take place. Mr. Padgett: We aren't attempting to hog-tie you, but what we are attempting to do is. one of things that kind of went on, we have since July 11, we have never really bit through this document, so one tithe. If we go through this document one time and find we are really pretty close. then you want to give a position paper , that kind of thing we don't have any problem with that. If we go through this document one time, there is no basis for us to settle. we have been harking up the wrong tree anyway. That is wkat we are attempting to do, is go through and make cure that there is some basis for settlement, and if you want to.say present a counter -proposal, to a particular tatter. we are not opposed to that. The statement I made to Nr. Vetosoff, he said about 2 weeks, l said no. I didnt think that was Necessary. I said i thought that was a little long. particularly 2 weeks in addition to the 3 months we have already been going. Nr. Merriam I submit to you that that three months thought was at the request of the Justice Dsparttieett, not at our regat'bt . We would have been glad to 'asap is msgotiatioas through that period of time. We sent out attorney to your offices, whet we were there we didn't engase in any negotiations. We were completely at liberty to engage in negotiationf and we were completely at liberty to sagage in negotiations, but that wasn't what transpired.it was a research detail obviously to accumulate the data that you had wettable to you. OCT 2•191 Mt. Padgett: After he did the researr•h , we never from hire again other than he filed s request .under the freedom information act for additional information and we had indicated to him when even he hefote he c.amu up then that he couldn't have gotten that. He couldn't get thu ini orn at ic+n filch and he can't get it under the freedom information act, so that could i :+,av' i t 1car1y toed him. Mr. Harrigan:1 think that iro irrelevant to the issue here don't you? Mr Padgett: Nn, you said he came up there, and ht f.:i ht• a:l:= only negotiating. Mr. Harrison; No, no, I said we looked at information, and tatter he got the inforation he didn't negotiate. I think if we look at the bisttar:, if this action has been initiated by the Justice Department, nog' tiritionti bu initiated. We are prepared to negotiate, but what is oect,rin; is, wf want to settle this thing this evening, or tomorrow, or he: ort' you yt+ hall; t W.a,.Linhton. What we have requested, is that we be allowed to present position papers listing our objections, what my objection was specifically. th.rt ii we are talking; about agreeing in concepts, fine, 1 have no objections to those t‘,cu r+t agreements, but the wording in this document here I think is highly gtte5tic.n.al.le, I think the implications are very clear, and my organization is .it no time roll- tr .admit even to an implication that we took part in any of these things. Onr letter has already clearly stated that and I don't think the city is ready to ;accept an implication that they have committed some of these things that in too Mr. Padgett: Let me ask this, are you saying that th.� FOP thorn you represent is, even if you were willing to admit that everything that recured in this document, you are willing to accept responsibility for everything in this document, even if you were willing to sign it? Mr. Harrison: I think I am included as a non -liable d:: t endnnt , isn't that correct? Mr. Padgett: Right. Mr. Harrison: What I am saying is the FOP is not a. c'cpt inn; any responsibility for any discriminatory acts. Mr. Padgett: It clearly stated that, that has hen :.t. ated as the position of the City too. Mr. Harrison: The very first page of this document says one thing and now what you are getting into is something entirely different. on one hand you are telling us, you, the Justice Department in this document is endorsing on -going programs of recruitment and later in this document. towards. --Mr. Davis is most interested in. l am sure and what he addressed to those page, you present different percentages. different objectives, goals. quotas, whatever you have, they are different than what is alluded to in the Collins suit, but you encourage and endorse us to continue our efforts to comply with the Collins suit on the first two pages. I see conflict. I sea reduncance, I see statements that the City will stop doing something when there has been no proof documented or offered here that that is in fact discriminatory. Mr. Padgett : That is the reason we entered into a consent decree. If the matter was in court, and w be put to our proofs. we think we could do that. That was the question Mt. Jerome* asked this morning. That is the whole purpose of us entering into a consent decree, or attempt to enter into a consent decree, so we don't end up in that particular kind of arena. Mr. Harrison: i think we are getting off, we are getting into something else. Ny request here Is we either continue or we put this off till next Monday, one of the two,. --we continue straight through as long as it takes this evening so a representative of my organisation carom bs here, because I too, as representatives of the government hays other obligations, and occasionally I have to be other places, Mr. Lloyds That puts us is s dilemma. We have a request for a continuance until tomerrov, asi4 we have a request to continue this evening. The .Justice Department 1I gfrsss is ready to go either way. Mt. Padgett: Let me get hack to something i said the first day. That is this reason we have teke n upon ourselves to push the natter because if we had to 49 OCT 2.197- arrange schedutea for 10 different people we never would have met and Mr. Marrinen, this shouldn't be taken by you personally, so what we are going to have to do, is somebody i:+ going to have to resolve some of their own personal problems so we can meet and attempt to resolve this thing. Because 1 don't think if we attempted to meet on Monday, that everybody could meet. Mr. Davis: Mr. Padgett the only problem we have with this item, we were not notified that you were here, and we have to respect our attorney being somewhere elite. Mr. Padgett: Mr. Davis we aren't disagreeing with that. What we are attempting to do is work around those specific provisions where we think there will be questions by your attorney, by Mr. Harrison's attorney and a number of the other attorneys. The things we are going to be discussing that Mr. Lloyd and we want to discuss, we don't think you nor Mr. Harrison or anybody else will have any question with. Mr. Lloyd: Does anybody have any questions as far as record keeping is concerned, and reporting which is provided for under the federal revenue sharing act in any event. Mr. Jaremco: Specifically who within the City administration would be required to keep those records, would it be the Civil Service Board or the affirmative action? Mr. Lloyd: Basically it evolves around the affirmative action coordinator, most of the recording keeping. Of course, everybody must maintain necessary records to support things, but you maintain the records that you would normally maintain anyway. Mr. Harrison: If I might have a question, in the recording keeping portion of the document you allude to a paragraph 2F and 1 was unable to find it in my copy. Mr. Padgett: On which page Mr. Harrison? Mt. Harrison: You allude to it on page 148 Sub paragraph c, except those excluded in paragraph 2F of this decree, you also allude to it on lt, sub paragraph g,--- Mr. Padgett: We understand what your concern is, this has been changed subsequent to that time. Mr. Lloyd: Any objections as to a discussion of recording keeping and I think reporting at this time. Mr. Pando: Yes, 1 would like to say something at this time. I am part of the affirmative action board that was created last week. I guess to monitor all of the developments, agreement and consent decree and I have some reservations. it says here for example that these records shall be made available to the department of Justice for inspection and copying upon written request. I have a suggestion. I think a board was created and it seers to me totally consistent with this proceedings to include this Affirmative Action board as a body to monitor the progress that is betas made in the implementation of this consent decree, if it ever comes to an agreement. Specifically i would like to have the City end the Justice Department both agree to be explicit as the role this board in monitoring the deveiopasat of progress in implementation. Mr. Padgett: I think I understand your question but since the Justice Department had no control over appointing of the Board, or I think that is the responsibility of the City. Mr. Pando: Let me re -phrase my question, if the City vented that to be included in the consist decree, would you,- --- Mr. Lloyd: You are out of order here because 1 am trying to find out whet objections are to reporting now w are getting into some aubatitive mtatters. As far se that Bosse your duties are laid out for you is the resolution given you by the City Cgs ernes and it is net up at this time, but as far as records go, as an advisory laird you have the opportunity to examine records of thsCity. As a asttor •f fact, they are all publte records, -------but they can be made _ J0 OCT 2 available to you very simply. Mr. Pendell I think that I am trying ., lit - of this board. It has been in the past very difficult for organitations to get information and records when we have Even the Justice Department is having problems getting far t.le bit the role different civic requested it. teal tigures. Mr. Lloyd: You just said the Justice Department, yen haven't said the City of Miami. Mr. Panda: First I would like to ask Mr. Padgett if the Commission wanted to have the role of this Board included in the consent decree, to the extent of monitoring the progress in the implementation of this agree. would you agree to that? Mr. Padgett: We have no objections to that. Mr. Lloyd: I might have some but he doesn't. Mr.Pando:I was expecting you would have some. I guess our role would be now to try to convince the Commission to suggest that. Thank vou. Mr. Lloyd: Actually, 1 can streamline some matters here before we adjourn this evening, in any event. Anybody have any questions? Ms. Nicol: First it is not made clear in the decree who in the City, who would have the direct responsibility for keeping, maintaining etc. these records. Secondly it is my understanding the working operation 1 have right now, is that some of these things for example, passed, failed, results by race, national origin and sex etc. I have been informed by the Civil Service Board it was their understanding that the keeping of these records is illegal. There are some legal points which have not sufficiently made clear within the city. I certainly am not in a position to make these legal decisions, and it was your statement that you felt that record keeping etc. ought to go into the area of affirmative action, and 1 don't want to get saddled with something that some other entity of the City government. ----- Mr. Lloyd: That is a mechanical problem within the City itself. Ms. Nicol: I want it to go on record now that these things have to be resolved and Mr. Lloyd: Well, they don't have to be resolved in this decree. We will resolve thew mechanically and administratively within the City of Miami here. They do not have to be resolved within this decree. go to Ms. Nicol: They don't have to be resolved within the decree but 1 want to on record as saying Mr. Lloyd that these points must be resolved if they are be put to my area of responsibility. Mr. Lloyd: Any further questions on reporting and record keeping. Mr. Padgett: Do you have a question Mr. Harrison? Mr. Harrison: Tee, sir, these reporting requirements are addressing themselves to chimp w haven't discussed yet. specifically paragraph 7A is addressed on pap 14$ sub paragraph E. and on page 1S, sub paragraph It and 1 address the sselves to a paragraph that defines effected class which we haven't discussed yet. and 1 don't think we can proceed to agree en these things until we discuss those particular things, ----- Mr. Padgett: ---except what 1s required ben in these reporting provisions you knew, say if w don't agree or say there is no definition of the affected class. Just naturally you won't haws anything to report under this particular provision. Mr, barrisoot it is ny understanding it we don't agree to something and w+ agree to delete it. it would be deleted wherever referred to is the agreement. Mr. Padgett: Of course. Si OCT $ -1975 Ms. Jami on: Let se note A correction, we did a little revising and shifting around of the sections and didn't catch all the references to hack paragraph, on page 1S and 10D, it says paragraph 58, and that should he 78. Mr. Lloyds Lt. Marti On Mill either you or Mr. Weinsoff he here tomorrow? Lt. Mattison: No, sir, Mr. Weinsoff had to leave tor Ft. Lauderdale and t am still on military leave tomorrow which is my last day. Mt. Lloyd: Let's proceed with the record keeping now and see where we goo from there. is that satisfactory with you? And then after that l can announce here where there will be areas of disagreement at that time, soon .as we finish with the record keeping. Mr. Paulk, inasmuch as this is an administrative process, the record keeping, I am not really qualified to determine one way or another whether the record keeping and the reporting process has an objection. What is your thinking on the matter? Mr. Paulk: As we discussed in Washington this particular aspect, under !!, all written applications and related records for all persons seeking employment with the City including applications for transfer within or among departments for a period of three years, and shall include on such applications identifications of the applicant by race, sex and national origin, --that would overcome the provision that we understand we cannot maintain those things on applications at present. Mr. Padgett: If you were doing this ---- Ms. Nicol: I can't hear you Mr. Padgett, ----- Mr Padgett:--pardon?----and that get's back to the question Ms. Nicol asked, what the law says is, if you were doing it for reporting in a decree or some other purpose, it is considered lawful and not considered illegal. i have already stated to Mr. Paulk, Mr. Paulks We understand that, if it is contained within the decree, we wilt comply with that and we would be able to do many things we otherwise could not do, such as, giving statistics with regard to break -down on examination results which we presently cannot do because we do not have that identification and the only way we could do it would be through suffrages. Mr. Padgett:Exactly, if you decide you would not like to put it on an application, if you wanted to put it on the is something else. Mr. Paulks I did discuss that with you, the possibility of whether it should be on the application or it could be put on the examination card so we can have readily information available for rapid statistics, so we could arrive at it in that way. It would probably be desirable to put it on the application and the exam card, but I don't have any problem with that so Long as you are telling us that is what we have to do, and what that is what we have attempted to do in the past, I have discussed it with local EEOC office. Mr. Padgett: The local goverment never says you have to do anything. we come to mutual agreement. Mr. caulks I understand, Mr. Lloyds What about A. list of organisations, is there any problem with that?? Mr. Paulks I don't have say problems with that, as the announcements for various kinds of jobs, •uaminatiorss that act being announced, if we are sending thee to some place mod we smite note of that. and vo provide you with a list of it. of the versos who in effect woe charged with that responsibility and letting that be know. part of the record. who did. %lean was it seat. who was it sent too so there is no probies with that, 1 don't sae any problem with A.B. the only problem with M is a transitional stage as I indicated to you previously. W will have to revise those tMiags. there was ins to be so period of time and w cannot de it until it shall evolve into a stood consent decree by the Judge. as there has to be a transitional period for reporting purposes. 52 OCT 2.191 Mr. Lloyd: Should we put in there this shall begin a rertain length of time or can we ask an indulgence on your pert, ----- Mr. Padgett: Yes, I thought we clearly understood that when we discussed it. This happened all in the tame day. Mt. Paulk: We have to take into consideration that there are numerous applicants on file at this moetent,th,at we have no ide'nt it irat it'ts on. Mr. Padgett: There is a strong possibility you will not even he able to get, MR. Paulk: Correct. Mr. Lloyd: Now, how about C:'. Mr. Paulk: I don't see any problem with C, except for that particular individual who refuses to identify, and we will have some one who will refuse absolutely to indiciate that they are whatever they are. We will have to identity that in some way, that they simply refused and we have no means by which tt identify. Mr. Lloyd: ---'refused to identify' and that will take care of it. Any problem with D? Mr. Paulk: I don't see any problem with that, written communications between City and applicants are maintained in the file and if we are to retain the file of an applicant for 3 years, it goes with that file anyway. Mr. Yates has some questions. Mr. Yates: If we get the communications, we can retain it. Mr. Paulk: Oh yes. Oh yes, for the most part, there is no communications from applicants, they come and they make application and we don't ever correspond with them, other than sending them the announcement or the card for the examination, so there is no correspondence. Mr. Harrison: Mr. Lloyd I wouid like to go back to C for a minute, paragraph 3A which is alluded to here. I wasn't here when that was discussed. I would like to take this opportunity to present my concern with wording at this point. Paragraph 3A says testing requirements, 'the city shall discontinue the use of any written examination for employment', I would submit to you sir, it would be better stated, 'the city shall not use any written exam', --the way it is stated, it Is a clear implication of guilt, even though on the front page of this document it says there is no liability admitted to by any parties, and yet here we are directly accusing. or mandating the city to discontinue something and the implication is very clear. However we can say the same thing by saying the city shall not 'tee any test that discrmiinates against. Ms. Jamieson: That item is still open. Mr. Paulk: We still have some serious problems with that. Mr. Padgett: Something else you should say Mr. Harrison. 1 think you are aware of this. even if we couldn't enter a consent decree, if we said, -----even though we say the city is not admitting guilt, or the Department of Justice is not accusing the City of anything. there would be no need to enter a consent decree, if we hadn't found problems, so the line between saying there is nothing wrong. and we ate not accusing you of anything. is kind of a subterfuge. Mr. Harrison: Mr. Padgett I ask you are we saying anything differently than rice wording here. than what 1 say. Are we accomplishing the same thing? Mr. Padgett:In what sense? Mr. Harrison: If we were to charge paragraph 3A to read, the city shall not usr any written examination for employment or promotion' has an adverse *pact "n Hlacks, Latins and women. Would that say the same thing as or would it accomplish the same purpose? Mr. Padgett: Yee art saying the city shall not use any sicittsa eecrinatio -sw,ez 04 53 OCT 2 1975 Mr. Harrison: be the dame thing, that is my term we ate wording, when t say cnncepta may be one thing, but wording certainly could he cleaned up in here. 1 understand what you are saying, but my concern is, are you trying to propose an accusatory document or obtain a real consent decree to together. Mr. Padgett: We are not trying to make an accusatory document clearly, and we accept and a valid criticism if there is what you show is inflamatt:ry of accusatory language, and clearly we should make every effort to rid the document of those kinds of things. That is a valid criticism, and well taken. Mr. Lloyd: With respect to E let me state this, there problems as far as the City of Miami, or my own personal opinion goes, on basis of a recommendation with paragraph 7A of this decree 1 think that has to do with promotions, hut providing the problems are ironed out. is there any problem with that with you? Mt. Paulk: You are saying 7A, where are you? Mr. Lloyd: ----little e on page 14R,----- Mt. Paulk:--e, yes there is a serious problem there. That is not identified yet. We can't touch on that one, that has to remain open until that other one is discussed. Mr. Padgett: What we were saying and the thing 1 said to Mr. Harrison is for example, if 7A never becomes a part of the decree, it obviously won't he a part of, on page 14 E, it won't mean anything. Mr. Paulk: I understand that, but I think it is better if it is not there. Mr. Lloyd: Can't we agree that it is all right unless stricken and it will be stricken in the event that we don't come to agreement on the other. Mr. Paulk: Sure. Mr. Lloyd: Now, then, F. Mr. Paulk: Sufficient records now, 1 don't know truly what sufficient is. Mr. Padgett: and what we are consultant, you collector. You keep different records on different part-time employees, trying to do there is give you some flexibility, say a part-time obviously keep different records than you do a part-time waste Mr,Paulk: Oh, yes. Mr. Padgett: What we are saying we want to give you the flexibility to come up with. --we want to be able to ascertain what those people are. We don't necessarily mandate that it be in any kind of particular form. What kind of form do you think would serve the we are requesting there? Mr. Paulk: I have a problem with that, because we don't retain the attendance records on the part-time people. We do maintain their personnel file. They are identified as working part-time. but some of the records as far as the timing that they work. we don't maintain, although we do review the payroll to indicate how many hours they are working, and the pay -roll, - Mr. Padgett: If you keep the personnel file. they are surely. --that would satisfy by and large, what we are requesting here. But thing that would concern us if they are saying these part-time people. we have no personnel record. nothing else to show they work for the city. Mr. Paulks We have some problems but it might not be unsuruountable. We don't maintain records on the lbaor force, the stand-by sanitation. we don't do that. Mr. Padgett: Do you pay them on a daily basis' lir. Faulk: They are reflected os a payroll but we don't have a persoa+ael MO oe these they aro strictly on a day -today operation, and at t they are selected or chases to moved into regulars at that point w 54 OCT 2.1975 a file for them, Mr. Padgettt fine of the things we are going to ask when we say affected class, one of the things we want to knew, this goes hack to the other part of it, is, if you are going to be responsible for hiring these temporaries on a bass of who is the most mentor temporary, there is going to have to be some kind, and I don't want to use the word seriority raster because that is the word art to everybody, but some kind of basis for keeping track of who is most senior and who is least senior. Mr. Paulk: I understand that. Mr. Padgett: That may be nothing more than when the fellow first started, or some kind of log sheet kept. Mr. Paulk: We will have to be provided with that information from the sanitation department because we don't have any means of, Mr.Padgettt That is the kind of thing we are talking ahout.I imagine the sanitation department already has something similar to that, would that not be true? Mr. bugger: I don't know, ---the only record they keek in our department about the standbys is the days they come, and I guess they keep them. I really don't know. T know they have a roster they are suppose to go hy. Mr. Padgett: Do they have a roster of people they c.l:: Mr. hugger: Yes. they have a1 roster and it i tt::lt`.I i`:' k'ork ti .rt;t 4`• iWe't•1! us and !:S:ltl.li;t'ment. Wt. have so many people. 1 :,>•; nit ti;i', Hi'. t11t•v kcty .itt ;1•'t•!It' lt.' record ;it all. 1 know thlyare suppose to, l t: t r:. put ' tl. , Pad'.;t'tt . Ho understands tin rt• : or.e k;n.i . r• ,t. r. Mr. Paulk: I .*ri sure there is, but we don't li:t vt• i t , •i:;t: i ( tll't . t • ; 'tt` ai l,• for it, :iithcug:l we might 1>t' able to reciuest a colt it;'i.n' `:l—:'.'in;; •1' —.1: t S'.ltf tit the people who . rt: recognized a: the stand-;tvs. Allah is ;.'it-, , :0 1e on-)t `in$: every day to day operation. We know that as ono is ;,iact.t is ittil time employment another standby comes intct existence a1lu that is ht'c.►u:4c they -11.•w up over there. Not because they close their office. Xt.. Padgett: That is something new, we don't have •tn :inswe- to, hut i:: titl:t.ethir.g that Mr. Paulk: They a.e identified on the payroll as standby. 'Ihert• i5 ., number that identifies them as standby. That is rather difficult. t.• 'r:.t'c•p. Mr. Yates: I was wondering since the department keeps it , do we have to duplicate it in our office? 'r. Padgett: No• wv are not asking you to duplicate it. but all we are asking is that there be some kind of -----it appears that all you have to do is ask the department of sanitation, say .e have a report that we are required to furnish the government, we want to know who the standbys are and how long they have been working. That is all we are asking. Mr. Yates: We wouldn't have to maintain It. we would merely demand it when you winted it. Mr. Padgett: exactly, ----- Mil. I'aulks l think maybe some of the particulars of that should be covered in the other socttoa you are going to work with him on in the morning, to work up, so a means of sslectioss of people, of selecting standbys should be generated in that as well. 1 know how it has been done in the past to some extent, not to every extent. Mr. Dolle $ The watt may work one day this week or two days, he may not caw pick his cheek W for a wreak, so rosily as payroll, all it shows is that they worked two days. You may have • .as that comes there every day, ever, day,---- 55 OCT 2•1975 Mr. Padgett: That is the problem with the payroll is. and that is the reason 1 may, if it is a roster, it clearly tndicaten who the standby is even if he doesn't come for three weeks,he is still considered a stindhy and is , even if he doesn't come for three weeks, Mr. Faulk: Just what he is outlining Mr. Padgett 1 think is significant in who its selected from those standbys to get into regular, the consistency or reporting and I think that they subscribe to that, so a person may have under consideration at top priority for his long time, if suddenly Se becomes one is waning and he is only showing up with rare frequency, he may not find himself as one who is going into to regular position, Mr. Padgett: I understand that, ---somebody who just doesn't want to get on regular, use it as supplemental income. MR. Paulk: That is right. Mr. Lloyd: I have a little bit of a problem with this sufficient records Mr. Padgett: If you are going to provide flexibility, you can't say we are the specificity. You can't say with any degree of accuracy what every departmenfs record will be, if you are dealing with temporary employees. Mr. Lloyd: Are you satisfied with that Mr. Paulk? Mr. Paulk: For the most part, all of the part-time people that are on board, we have records on. It is sanitation where we have no records. I am satisfied we can provide information on most all of the parks, Ms. Nicol: ---including parks and recreation? Mr. Paulk: Yes, including parks and recreation, with the exception of manpower. Ms. Nicol: No, I am not speaking of them, but 1 am speaking like the one -title stagehand, that group that goes into parks and recreation. Mr. Paulk: You are correct, on a day-to-day operation where someone comes in for a day's work, no we don't have that, other than on payroll. Mi. Nicol: That is where we might run into a few problems. Mr. Padgett: We aren't talking about situations wherein that it is so infrequent that a person will never become a city employee. We are talking about situations wherein that it is obvious in the sanitation department and certain other departssents, people worked there long enough that they are actually considered for full time employment based on their part-time work and work performance. Mr. Paulk: The casual worker that works down at the auditorium for instance. Mr. Padgett: No. not that. ---- Mr. Faulk: YOu are not interested in that? Ms. Nicola As long as that is clear. Mr. Paulk: There are other kinds of things such as referees for bail games during the summer. those kinds of things. you are really not interested in. i don't think you are. They shouldn't have. they really shouldn't be reflected is our work forca.in some instances there are some employees who are utilised, gives ea opportunity to work at those kinds of thins*. some 'sensate, people. some other people are utilised in those kinds of things. with stipplwata/ imams. Mr. Lloyds Ye are on No. 10 rsporttes.----actually basically correct se if t as woes. isn't this basically what we 4o under the federal reveeue sharing amyvay, with the forme. isn't this correct Ms. Nicol' Ms. Nicol: Substantta11y, it seems to be bared on the EO 4 report. Mt. Padgett: What 10 does is tell you what to do with Q, Ms. Nicol: ----with 9, but substantially it goes n little bit further than we report right now, Mt. L10 rd; Either you or Mr. Paulk have any problem with that? Mr. Paulk: Which one? Mr. Lloyd: 10,--- Mr. Paulk: ---in the 90 days? Mt. Lloyd: Yes, actually it 90 days after the end of the decree and every 6 months thereafter. MI. Paulk: I think that is almost readily available anyway. Ms. Nicol: There is no more problem with that than there is with the WAS objection in 9 where the start up, and the over -lap for the on -board people in the filing cabinets' applicant, where we may not have that information and we just have to make some provision for that. Mr. Padgett: Page 16 paragraph G, where it says, 2-F should he I -A. Mt. Lloyd: Would the details A,1S,C and D,E.F. C and --- Ms. Nicol:---H may be a problem- Mr. Paulk was speaking of th.' one-time people and the casual, mostly parks and recreation, that may be a problem under our current situation. We may have to change it administratively but I just wanted to point that out. Mr. Paulk: Let me ask one question here with regard to the December and June reporting because they don't correspond with the reporting time, I don't believe right now. Do they Ann? Aren't we on an August, •-reporting? Ms. Nicol: No, we report as of 1 July, either 30 June, or 1 July, whichever day you want to count, and the reports are due on the 30th of September. We get our information in August because of our internal problems. Mr. Paulk: And I ask this for simplification, wouldn't it be better that that report that is going to EEOC, because essentially it is thu same information, be better if we submitted that same form that is going in, what did you say? Ms. Nicol: it is due on the 30th of September following 1 July, --- Mr. Paulk: Put that one on that one, and in 6 months later the next one rather than June, ----you see? Mr. Padgett: ---July, January Mr. Pauiks I thick it would be less work for the city because one report is bolas generated and that is only one more report that you are truly making for. Do you follow that Ma? Ns. Nicol: 1 am with you, the thins of it is though, is that we have to pick a day of ceportia$. Wa report as of the close of business, or 12 midnight the 30th of Juan, as the day we stop counting people and start counting for the sect time. Or that Le our statue as of that day. A total lumber of employees on Word that day so we do it actually twice a year, ens as of January 1 or 31 December amd once as of 1 July or 30 Jvas, we have to pick those days, to opacity the days. Nr. Faulk: I think it would desirable to make them eotrespond, Ms Mteuls Thee of course that would mean that if we reporting as of the 1st of July, us would mot he able to provide that report until after the 1st of July. Hearse of asapHatton.-� 57 OCT2 • 197 Mr. Padgett: We are willing to go along with that hut the fls,ed is, you said that the reports for FEOC is dui, as et Jul Ms. Nicol: --.July 1st, Mr. Padgettt----okay, June 30 and Decembec3l t. only thing 1 11 ,..... MA. Nicol: Sy the i0th of September every year, we must report the status of the City as of 1 July, which gives us several months to compile. which means that if we were reporting as of 1 .January, we would have the same amount of time after 1 January that we would have after 1 July. Mr. Padgett: We understand,---- she was saying. it i .tunes 30 and December 31 and she is saying for Etoc it is .lanuar'' 1 and duly list,---- Ms. Nicol: We get to choose, Mr. Padgett: I don't think that Ms. Nicol: ---we are using the same one period to EEOC and report as of the What we are saying that if we are going the date we report to EEOC and 6 months one day is t:sink*, to ho.- reporting period, we have ,u report last day of June or the 1st day of iuly. to report to them twice a vcar, we use later, okay, rater than coming up with Mr. Naples: What was your definition of to maintain these records. Mr. Padgett: It is Spanish sur-named, Mr. Naples: ---only Spanish surname? Mr. Padgett: ----right. nationl origin here:' That we have Ms. Nicol: The problem with that definition Mr. Padgett is for example we have ------(change tape) Mr. Padgett: ------when we use the word Latin, just because of the peculiar nature of the Miami area, you can't use in all inclusive, ---wee use the word Latin for all-inclusive. But that word traditionally in the job market means people of Spanish extraction, regardless of whether their last name happens to be Spanish or has changed through marriage. Ms. Nicol: Would you agree we agree that ve could use the EEOC definitions of the rectal and ethnic groups. I don't know the number off hand. I do have them in my office. Mr. Padgett: if ve start talking. or speaking of Panamanians, --Panamanians in some respects can be Spanish surname and they can also be Blacks. Ms. Nicol: According to the regulations that i have been given by EEOC if someone is both black and Spanish surname they are counted as Spanish. So if we are going to be opperating under those. I would like you to agree and I'll give you a copy of the ones I have Mr. Padgett: All I ask you to do if you decide to go one way or the other, is that you indicate vhtch way you choose to operate. Just like the June 30 and July 1. Me. Lloyds Any other questions? let. Caulks The only thins that cannot be generated in an EEO 4 font report would be the report shoving the positrons for which persons in the affedtod cuss applied and the affected class is identified and yet has not been discussed. there may be few or easy, we don't know. I. Lloyds There waif sMbject to betas stricken in the event no $resornt is readied. his are about ready to adjourn, but before we do. 11. Ea) officer. 'copies of this degree shall be provided by the plaintiff to be posted in a aeespleeeve locatdaas in each department and/or operation of unit or city 58 OCT 2 .WS department. further the city shall Appoint an EEO officer whose dutit, shall include to advise black, Latin and female etnplovec< of the termN of this decree to receive and investigate the complaints of race, sex, national origin, discrim- ination and to conciliate whet appropriate and to maintain a complete record of all actions taken in pursuit of duties outlined above irr1ud ng all correspondence direct to the defendant and/or any investigatory rites. The individual appointed as EEO officer shall have his office hours and location posted con!pirinusly beside the consent decree. Actually, 1 agsuMe we should t•o a,ivi,;nr; ;ill employees should we not, Mr. Padgett, --- Mr. Padgett: We have no objection to you Advisiny! Ail t';:'.hlov.'et:, thr pint we are making here is we are advocating fora specific group o; orplotiet,s, so it is of a particular concern to us that they be notified. This is tho point we are making. Mr. Lloyd: It understand. Would not "a11' cover Mr. Padgett: Yee, all would cover it. Mr. Lloyd: Do you have any objections tc r^akin ; it t`t:tt t:. % Mr. Padgett: l am sorry, ---- Mr. Lloyd: Do you have any objections to advise , '.;1 in ind female ---to 'advise all employees of the terms of this decree', ---- Mr. Padgett: 1 don't think so, Mr. Lloyd: Okay, all right, how about, anybody have .:ny o');c :-t ions to receive and investigate complaints of race, sex and natio1, discrim- inatio and conciliate when appropriate' ---let's stop Oc'r''. i = 'hot p rt of your duties Ms. Nicol to receive, ---- Ms. Nicol: No, it is not, ---investigation but no conci: ion, ---- we are operating right now under the grievance procedures outlined in the Civil Service Rules and regulations. Mr. Padgett: What I am saying is, the question you were asking could possibly be more appropriately asked at this juncture relating to this particular provision of the city. Mr. Pando: This Board was appointed 1 think because it was the :,ingestion or whatever word you want to use, from the federal government, and it was your effete or, ---to ask a group of citizens to monitor all of teas proceedings and make recommendations to the Board, and to the Commission before approvitg the last draft, the final draft of this consent decree. That was our task. However I feel very uncomfortable, because there are people :hat believe that 1 am going to do something and I don't see that we have any kind of iigitimacy ---any kind of teeth, so one of my main concerns, especially since you have heard here, how everybody agreed a couple of years back '_r. the Cohen ca-e, that yes, we cam do this. Now two years later we find out, --it just seems very reasonable to se that somebody would be agreed upon between both the City and the federal government to monitor the progress of implementation of this consent decree, or otherwise, you may leave here with the belief that things are going to proceed es stated, then based on pest performance, that is not the case. 1 think it is unrealistic and I would like tyou to ask Ann N:-col if she feels she has your authority now to do all these things. I don't believe she has the backing from the people who hired her, so she is put in a very difficult position. She is appointed to the job and is not given the authority to do it. Mr. Lloyd: Let me answer, - Mt. Pando: You can answer, but I would also like her to answer because whenever somebody asks a question of her, you answer. Mr. Lloyd: You refer the question to me, if you w111 do me that courtesy, sir, I have bees charged with the responsibilty of chairing this meeting, and i on goisd to mower you first • and then ve can hear from NW. Nicol, if you don't mind. Mr. Pasios Whether I Mad or Not it is not of very much consequences. 59 OCT2-197 Mr. Lloyd: In the fitst place if an agreement: is entered into in this respect or any other respect, appropriate persons within the city will be clothed with the authority and responsibility to implet:..ant it. i think its Nicol has already answered your question. I asked her, !:he said that. she d, rs not, she only investigates, she does not conciliate, so I assume you may answer the question, --do you have any authority at this time from the city to cviicillate any disagreements or coetplaints. Ms. Nicola No, what t was going to say is that grievances and ccmplaints are handled either through Civil Service grievance procedures ender the labor contracts that are entered into by the City or by admin: st rativc• order 2.9 signed by previous City Manager Melvin Reese, which covers all other esployees. to that one it mentions a grievance officer ,appoint d by the city Manager. I have not been so designated, so therefore, the investigation that I do, in affirmative action on my own authority, my own responsibility and without any enabling legislation or whatever, simply that which t do on my own, so i have no status, for example within any of the grievance procedures as they are currently constructed by actual writing. There could be -lone Inpli- cations,--I could have some by implication or by trtle and proper delegation were that done officially. Mr. Lloyd: Mr. Crouch would you like to amplii% on this Mr. Crouch: The only thing Imight state is that the City Charter requires that the City Manager has the responsibility for the conduct, diseipi in.tt ion of employees and I don't believe that, ---although he can designate someone to act in his stead, or to investigate, he has the sole responsibility in some of these area that we might be discussing, so it is kind of unter:;tood that he wouldn't have assigned that now could we in a consent decree, ar;sij'.n those responsibilities to someone other than the Manager. Mr. Lloyd: Does that answer your question? Mr. Pando: Yes, ---- Mr. Harrison: Mr. Lloyd, I have a concern here, in this section, the contract, FOP and I believe the firefighters, we have greivance procedures spelled out, we also have non-discriminatory clauses. I am not sure but I would like an opportunity to research to see if this isn't the responsibility of the labor organisations to proceed with these things under their contractual agreements anyway, which call for specific grievance procedures and arbitration, in those particular grievances. Now. I am not sure, I am going to have to research that, but I do know that both the fire union and police FOP has non-discriminatory clauses and greivance procedures which go up to and include arbitration for 3rd party actual arbitrator, and I think this particular provision may bridge those clauses of the contracts that address to this particular item. Mr. Lloyds I would like, can we have a little further study on this with regard to conciliation, of determining who will do that. Do you have any objection to that? Mr. Harrison: ---all right, --- Mr. Lloyd: Nov about C. maintaining a complete record of all actions taken to pursuit of the duties outlined above. including all correspondence, directed to the defendant and/or any investigatory files, individual appointee. shall have his office hours and location posted conspicuously beside the consent decree, --that will have to be open too I assume. because that is sort of ---.- Ma. $tcol: That again is Mr. Crouch's point, that the City Manager by Charter. has that responsibility. so there would have to be provisions for proper delegation were that to be the case and that has not been done yet. Mr. Lloyd: That is right. llr. Crouch: If I sight isqutre of Mr. Padgett, to it not your desire that these fuecttosa occur asd that it they occur under an EECt officer or that the City pert's, these services that you are speaking about and if we can slake prsvtat.sis for toes to occut, and that the city does accept those responsibilities, and how tbsy occur, other than the fact that an officer 60 OCT 2 "1975 is appointed for eny grievances or to hear complaints of discrimination or things of that nature which we are planning to do under our affimrative action program also. Mr. Padgett: Essentially yes, but one of the things that always codes up particularly when you start talking about this is and the reason that we suggested this 18 that suppose your complaint ig against the civil service board which is clearly a delegated part of your city administration. Or suppose the complaint of discrimination is not only civil service hoard against the office or person who is supposed to make the decision. What happens in that kind of situation? Mt. Crouch: And what if it were against the EEO Offices Mr. Padett: You end up in the same box but the advantage of the EFoofficer is as it is delegated in the ordinance, 1i independent of the structure. Unter Title 7 and this is a question made by Mr. Harrison. The Suprc•"rc Curt specifically said that under Title 7, that a right to f le a charge of racial discrimination is separateand independent of any kind of negotiated collective bargaining provisions to the same making the point. Its a total and distinct right and is something that you have to be aware of and even though we were aware that the collective bargaining agreement may say the same thing. Mr. Crouch: What I thought we had stated before was that you are royally attempting to set up the structure by which these things can he accomplished and in finding the right way to do that, we can reach accord. I think that is the direction we will be going and if that is satisfactory, then we will work with you. Mr. Lloyd: That is open then. I would assume that "C" is open at least to a degree because "C" is dependent upon "D". We will work that one dap. Nclw then 12, "Jurisdiction". Frankly, I have no legal fault to find with that and does anybody have any questions on 12? lean state that in Courts where there are equitable decrees which are impermanent in nature, retain jurisdiction in any event as a matter of law. i might state, that we are probably in a ms+•-e favorable position with this in there because without it, the Court might well take jurisdiction forever and this way it limits it to 5 years providing the city moves for disollution of the decree 45 days after the 5 year period which if it weren't in here, you wouldn't have the opportunity and 1 find no legal fault in that. 1 as at a lose as to how to work up this thing. The Justice Department doers want to meet tomorrow and then if there is anything left over any further discussion Lt. Harrison you may have with your attorney, then I will attempt to prevail on the Justice Department to stay. Now in view of the fact that there ire a nueber of other things under discussion, I can inform everybody now, where, including aesbers of the Justice Department which 1 think you already know, are areas of extreme difficulty so that you will know. So everybody in the room now will know. In paragraph i• of course GOALS, as represented in our proposal, we have not set forth any specific webers. The Justice Department proposal has numbers. Therefore, we apart on the idea of goals and that is a new proposal by us which has not had consideration not only by yourself but by the Justice Department. You received that as soma as the Justice Department received it. Now. with regard to 611, the subject of promotion. HEre again, there is some difficulty and I am not certain yet whether it can be resolved by definition of term or otherwise but ter sugpstion would be. where the sole criteria is tor promotion. is tine employed by the City. then we can agree to that but where time la grade plus specific experience is also required, it could not apply. If it is intended by the Justice Dept. to have it apply. in anything where experience alone for promotion, where there is experience in a job also required, I could not recotmsi nd agreement by the City commission in that area. • 1 OCT 2•19l5 Now again, we are still, our problem remains with he with regard to the "Affected Class". Again, we have A problem there. Paragraph 7, Mr. Faulk: Mr. Lloyd, I have a problem with 6A because 1 don't tandcrstand traditionally Latin jobs. Mr. Lloyd: 1 forgot about that one, 1 don't either, we have a problem of understanding. Mr. Padgett: I stated before, that goes 6A B :and C should be read together and I recall the city had a question as to saw the department of Justice coming up with a appendix or a group of people it had identified as having been discrim- inatorily denied employment, If you read all three of these together you got was is identified as the affected class. to A it may mean just Blacks who are currently employed, or Latins who are currently employed, how few they may he, or see if you have the list maybe primarily Latins, Latins we think have been discriminatorily denied employment. You have to read 6 all together, A B t:,-- Mr. Paulk: I do understand A and B as related to incumbents. Mr. Padgett: Let me answer it this way, Latin females have been hired into the traditionally female jobs, that is clerical, by the City of Miami. that is one example. Mr. Faulk: That is women, --- Mr. Lloyd: I am afraid I have a problem of understanding both A and B also. I would like to consider it on the basis of more specifics, J11 incumbent black eployees currently holding positions generallyh as follows, and then designating the position rather than traditionally. I have a little problem with that. Mr. Padgett: I am at loss to understand or come up with anything more definitive at this time other than to say for example all blacks in the sanitation department, or Latin or women employed as clericals. Mr. Lloyd: Suppose we do this, so we don't have to stay here till all hours we have a problem area here in 6. Now then, 7, here again we have a problem with promotion and transfer pool where seniority in anything but where seniority is essential, is the only essential criteria for promotion, where there is an experience factor, we have a problem. New back pay, we have a problem and I will suggest to you, I think it is a little bit late today. I would like to suggest to you right now, the only thing I could agree to here is that rather than even these contentions. I personally would suggest to the commission would be that parties are not in agreement as to the issue of back pay. That would be my suggestion which I would submit to the Commission. Mr. Padgett: You object to the submitting of the contentions. Mc. Lloyd: Yes. Mr. Padgett: May I ask what that is based on' Mr. Lloyd: I do not want to limit myself in a subsequent court proceeding to ,---well this is what you agesad the issues on. I don't know at this time what all the issues are, so therefore if I say that the parties are in dis- agreement as to the issue of back pay, it does not limit either yourself or myself as lawyers or whoever represents the parties in court, from raising any and all issues. but hers you 040, you have limited it for me, you say the City contends on the other hand that it is prohibited from husking back pay award by certain provisions in the Florida constitution, even if it wern't it has no budgeted funds. Mt. Padgett; All we did there was to try to write down what we thought we bed been told. Mr. Lloyd: i tolk you that. There Le no question about that. yea I did. Mt. Padgett: ------es the brief you veto giving before the Supreme Court. -- Ns. Lloyds That is win► i abject to beviag it in there. so as to be pure it wouldn't. My request would be the pe.ti s are is disagreement as to the issue of back goys-•••• 62 OCT 2.1975 Mr. Padgett: If it is Left that way, 1 don't sop how the city Cowtission can rule on it, or can determine whether they think their liability may be greater if they litigated the matter or If they were to say there Is a possibility that we can settle it for x amount of money and then go from there. Mr. Lloyd: My problem is that I cannot recommend legally that the city can do this, that is my problem see, and if they would inform me that they wish to arrive et some settlement, even for a fairly minimal amount, 1 would have to tell them that in my opinion they cannot legally de this. That is my problem and would be happy to discuss the legalities of it with the city. As a matter of fact the first thing that will be asked me, 'Mr. Lloyd, vnu say we can't legally do this, why',• -•-I'll be constrained to tell them. That is what I will be con- strained to do, so that will be thoroughly discussed in the City Commission I am certain. This is what 1 would have to recommend. Mr. Harrison: May i ask a question, the back pay issue, Mr. Padgett are you alluding to the steel workers settlement? Is that consent decree with the steel workers and the industry, ---- Mr. Lloyd: ---less the Albemarle case, -- Mr. Harrison: Is that the objective that you are moving towards, the amount of money set aside and then somebody decides how it is divided up swung people who have been discriminated against? Mr. Padgett: Yes that is the basic concept. Mr. Harrison: --to what provision would the Cohen suit, --the Cohen suit dealt specifically with blacks in the police department, it dealt with that issue, it laid it to rest. Mr. Padgett: The Cohen suit did, (1 am glad you raised that) the Cohen suit dealt specific individuals, it dealt with them and the question as to those specific individuals may be an other question, but it did not deal with them on the basis of title 7, and it did not deal with all minorities in the police department. Mr. Harrison: That is my point, it dealt with specific in minority. Mr. Padgett: It dealt with specific minorities, I think it was 29 people. There are other minorities in the police department that we thing may or may not have a clam. Mr. Harrison: I am confused, I thought the Cohen suit was a class action, that it embraced all black police officers. Mr. Padgett; I think we may end up having to litigate that as an issue ----it is specifically under title 7, because if I am not mistaken, you will find one of the prior orders in there that the Judge under Sec. 1981 said that he didn't think they as a class under 1981 were entitled to back pay and the specifically filed under title 7 with the EEOC, if you recall the sequence of events. Mr. Harrison: I recall that be embraced it ail, and he embraced discrim- ination against black police officers as a group up to 1972 I believe. Mr. Lloyd:Lt. Harrison, so that you don't be found guilty of practicing law without a license, lot sat this to rest. that I am fully prepared to discuss these particular contentions in this connection and raise whatever contentions that are necessary. Mr. Harrisos; Thy. always told se to count to tea,- I am not practicing law. I would 1iPR to give it a try one day. My question if I might re -phrase it was the effect on that particular croup. Mt. Padgett: The answer is no, -- Mr. Marrtsoss---if your provision prevails, are they or are they cot, they are is eluded, they wit! be included! Mr. Padgett:Right,•---- 63 OCT 2. 5 i Nts from, t arrisons---in spite of the Cohen action, you are saying it is separate llow. Mt. Naples: Mr. Lloyd was that to include the city's objections. If so I have another comment t wish you would consider. It has to do can page 10 paragraph C, which we did sot Met to, and I don't think you mentioned that in your objections. Mt. Padgett: That was where we cut off, and I think I can explain why, it related specifically to the police department and it there was objections to raising things concerning the police department because certain lawyers were not here and what have you. 1 think that is why we were cut off there. Mr. Lloyds 1 think we have some problems there too. Mr. Maples t You are talking about assignment again, and this relates back to the discussion of a definition of assignment on the previous page, and I think that leaguege is far better to apply in this instance than this language is here, for here you are saying the city shall not discriminate on the basis of sat, race, or national origin in the assignment of the employees in a department, etc. and here you are even saying which do not have the effect of selecting white Anglo mates at a higher rate than blacks, Latins or women, it doesn't say anything selecting at a higher rate blacks Latins or women than white Anglos, is what lam speaking of. The language is very unclear as far as t as concerned and also 'would like to ask why the police department is being singled out in this paragraph and not other departments in the city. It seems what is good for the police department is good for every other department. Mr. Padgett: If you find this evidence, we would be happy to include the other departments. Mt. Napless Mr. Lloyd again, 1 wish you would leave that open for further discusssion. Mt. Lloyds 1 have a note to leave it open. As a matter of fact we must leave it open for further discussion, that is correct. What time would it be convenient for most everybody to get here tomorrow know we will have ewe of these things that cannot be resolved. Mt. Harrison: My request would be if you could aset after noon tomorrow 1 could be here. I could cancel ay obligation's tomorrow afternoon and bee here. Mr. Lloyds If we met right at 12 o'clock. Let me ask you this, would you have any objection if we took up the subject of goal, which is going to be lengthy anyway? Mr. Narrisoasi would object if you took anything up without a representative from ay organisation present. Mt. Lloyds is there some representative you could have here for the goals and we could take it up say at 11:00 o'clock. Mr. Narrisoes 1 can be hers at soon. Mt. Lloyds Yoe arse the nee. Nr. Harriesses If revisit'. meet at noon twill be here. Mr. Padgett: Ws can met at noon. Mr. Lloyds The nestles will Mesas promptly at noon and we vili continue ---La other words it anybody waste to get lunch, get as early Lunch and we will bests with paragraph 4C. The neetleg Is adjourned until tomorrow at noontime. NOR: The neeties adjourned et 7:10 OCT 2.11175