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HomeMy WebLinkAboutCC 1975-09-02 MinutesH. V. SOUTHERN City CCenk Y OF o MO • .,, G;. 7 r ONerk4 1 N1;t1H1' ++t( i'I 1.1) 182 hll`�,`\ ‘0.0.‘eits rvid SPECIAL COMMISSION MINUTES OF MEETING HELD ON SEPTEMRER-•2,1975---- PREPARED BY THE OFFICE OFY 1Al LCITY CLERK CRALPH G. O4C,i(. Ae6i6titll( Ci(,) rep. On Miami, a did Ci ohdindn the 2nd ddy ttohtda met d ty in SP1 C1AL ce Soh .the Ci the meeting toga donating mr.►nbcha o d Atav Pteaent: MINUTES OP SPI:C1AL MEETING CITY COMMISSION or MIAM10 FLORIDA o4 Septembeh, 192, the City Comribeio►t od t its hegutdh meeting place d.t City Hatt in SESSION to coinaideh the phopoaed dppkopkidtion ty afi Mtdri doh Ai.5cdt yeah 1925-1496, totted to ah the Cummtaa4 Commiaaio Commiaaia Commi.55to Vice Maya Mdyah Mau del 9:00 O'Ctock A.M. With the can phesent: azeh Rose ci„tdvn neh (Rev.) theodohe Gtbaon nth Macs Reboau h .J,t. 1'tueeek,Jh. hice A. lehhe P.W. And c.wb, City Mdnageh A.R. Ckouch, A.Seiatant City Managek John S, Lloyd, City AttoAney N.a, Svuthehn, City Ctenk Absent.: Ralph G. Ongie, Aaaiatant City C.tehle Mr. Andrews: If you'll pet-mit me I will go through these charts so that you cab have a full explanation and it's particularly important, although I met with you individually to review the budget and answer your questions in areas of concern. t think that we should go through this process so that the Department Directors, Public and the City Commission all have the same information simultaneously, so that we begin with a base of understanding as we go through some of the difficult problems that will be facing us in finalizing this budget and with your permission I'll step down to this podium rack --- see these charts. if all of the Department Directors will move °vet to that aide of the room you'll be able to view the charts with these. Mr. Mayor and members of the Commission, pages 10 and ll of the blue section of your budget book in case you care to follow that and make notes as we proceed through this budget explanation describes the entire City budget which has increased from an operating level of --- and a debt service level of $84,863,000(and please I'll use round figures as we go through this rather than precise figures) $84,863,000 to.a level of $89,286,000.00 which is an increase of $4,400,000.00. This increase shows up princip- ally in five areas of the General Fund and two areas of the Special Millage Funds.' We'll go through that carefully but in reference to the chart you'll see that the General Fund Budget increase on $790,000.00. there is a slight millage reduction in the General Fund but the total millage is slightly higher, that's the certified millage,_ that is the total millage 8.619. Now the next one --Pension, Social Security, Insurance - there is an in- crease there of $870,000.00 and a little later this morning we'll single that particular area out to discuss it fully so that the Commission has a complete understanding of how I have recommended the funding(particularly of the pension portion of that three-part budget. Publicity, there is a reduction of $230,000.00. Street Lighting, there is an increase of $640,000.00, that increase is made-up of two parts. One- a significant increase in the rate we pay for electricity and that rate represents about one-half a million dollars increase, added to that is approximately $120,000.00 of additional street lighting expansion that we have provided for in this budget. The Street Lighting Budget which is indicated there at 1.9lmillion, there is an additional 1.2 million dollars in the Federal Revenue Sharing Funds that you must add to that which provides for a total budget of $3,100,000.00. Debt Service requirement as increased by $1,270,000.00 (that's understandable) we've accelerated capital improvements and in doing so we must pay the debt service on those general obligations bonds that were sold in order to provide the improvements. Public Facilities - there is an increase of $1,100,000.00 and that increase comes about principally from two factors, one -we have for the first time in many years identified the money that will be available for capital improvements --the Orange Bowl, which represents $435,000,00 or thereabout'is published in the book. We had not been doing that. What the Commission has done in the past is adopted appropriation ordinances every time we went into an improvement for the Orange Bowl we would do that in mid year or as the occurrence required. This year we are publishing the amount of money that is avail- able for capital improvements and that increases that figure by some $450,000.00. The second increase comes about because of expanded use of the Marine Stadium and Vice Plummer 1 SEP 2 1975 will be particularly pleased to know because he's been concerned as all of the Commissioners has as to the operation of the Marine Stadium. Our foteeast is that the first time it will be in black, (If we can use that expression) that is we hope that the revehues will exceed the operating cost. So that le the Ciiy's total budget of $89.29 million. This next cliatt now takes the first it.ee, (you might want to take that chart and set it over here ao in cast the Cotnmissioh wish to refer to it they can look at it), Now, the fifat item on that chett which is the General Fund, representing att expenditure of $58.77 million is reflected oh this chart in the last column, so this chart represents the first elemetit of the total budget. This chart describes the tnethod of funding that budget. There ate rraiiv only six sources of funding. The last source (if I tear go to the bottom one first) additional revenue sources it made up of 39 sources of tevenue and they ate indehtifted in your budget document and they're all forms of fees such as Parks and Recreation fees, Building Department fees, fees for photos and forms that the public can have from the Police Department, there's a charge for that and all those fees ate included in that source and each individual fee represents a sum less than one million doliats acid the total of which is $6.930,000.00 anticipated in this budget. And the test of theta all of those five categories represent revenues to the city that exceed ohe billion dollars or mote. We broke it nut that way so that you could get a real good handle and that's even true for re. Sometimes it gets so involved that when you look at the details you lose site of the entire source and this Is a vav of looking at the entire picture. Starting with the top line then Ad Valoreum taxes which l want to stop for a moment- , really and tell you a• little bit more about and dwell an that a little longer is that the Cotntnission adopted an anticipated revenues from Ad Valoteum taxes at $15,755,000.00 at the beginning of this fiscal year based on the information that was available to us from the tax assessor's office further based on the assumption that we would have a reduction of about $400,000.00. That was later revised in February of 1975 and the general fund had a loss of additional dollars because the adjustments that were made were far more extensive than we had ahtici. pated. We had anticipated that the tax assessor through the equalization board beatings would remove about 35 to 40 million dollars of properties from tax rolls. As it tutned out there was about 79 million dollars removed. almost double, so the problem of ptoviding for the additional. $413,000.00 loss over that which we anticipated became a serious problem during the current year and of course we were able to overcome it only with some of the drastic actions that we took. The new estimate for 75-76 operating year is $16,345,000 so we'll get into ad valorem taxes in a little bit more in detail in the next couple of charts. Now. Revenue Sharing divided into two parts, federal and state - there we do not have any control in that area unless there was some way of changing the formula which is quite complicated, particularly at the state level. You'll note that there is an antici- pated reduction from the forecast in the state revenue sharing in that it was 13.5 million en. ''3.19 million now that's forecast for the new year. The revenues as they have been received by the city are substantically less than what we had anticipated. Business licenses the City Commission has no control there once again: that's by state statute and that's fixed. It was fixed at the time in 1972 when the 10 mill cap was put in place and we ate not in a position of increasing business licenses. And the last time the City Commission authorized an increase was in 1969 which if my memory serves me correctly it was a 10% increase. Fines & Forfeitures is beyond the Commission's controls because it's based on fines and forfeitures and it's funds that we collect through the court actions of Metro- Dade County. Utility Service Tax Fund shows some growth, but we have to utilize the figures and the estimates based on that growth pattern. There is no way that the Commission can increase that utility service tax fund; it's 10% and that's it and it produces what it will produce, it depends on the growth factor of principally Florida Power 6 Light Company and to a certain extent the telephone company and other gas franchises and then we are down to that last item which I began with which is the additional revenue That totals then in the last in the last column $58,290,000.00. We will have a fund balance---- we estimate $475,000.00 and that then is $58.76 million - matches the chart first item on the other chart. Mayor Ferre: Mr. Andrews, it was my understanding we could not use pledged utility tax for service tax for general revenues, so what's it doing here? Mr. Andrews: There are two matters Mr. Mayor. One is franchise tax and one is the utility tax. This is the utility tax. Mayor Ferre Oh ----I sec. Ok. All right, I'm sorry. Mr. Andrews: I want to go back over that area of the loss of tax base. We adopted a 1974-75 tax base that was supplied to us by Metropolitan Dade County and it was set at 3 billion 344 million, 95% of that is $3,171,000 and we levied a mintage of 10.880 and you remembered last year you struggled with reducing the impact upon the property owners by uncovering 2 million dollars in adjustments which brought that down to 10.88 and the city had expected to collect a34,567,000 and during the course of the hearings by the board of equalization, On February 26th, we received notice indicating that the tax base had been adjusted to 3 billion 265 million. This represents about 79 million dollar decrease and when that's adjusted to 95% and the same millage applied against it 2 SEP 2 1975 it produced $33,754,000 and $18,000.00 lose when we had anticipated a 8400,000.00 loea so we had a $413,000.00 problem that we had to overcast let the budget in this year's operation, Now the proposed taxes and millage:, and this is important to keep,in mind, of existing properties The properties that ate On the tax toll tight hew, not the new additions, the new buildings that have been added and the new attucttite that have. been added, dealing only With thoee, their asseaaed value, which has been adlueted to 3 billion 240 Million and feptesette 160% when the tax aeseeaor gots through his cal- culations as to how he will attt4e at certified tililage, he thust take that into tett- sideration according to the Yaw. bid yeti have a question Mt. Mayor? Mayor Fette: Yea, I'm looking at last year's = --- and 1 get the aaseseinent is to provide that tot the equalization boatd went down tol billion 265, Now then it seetns hard to see how----YNot any new additions -- Mr. Andrews: Kb, this is no new additions. 1 want to explain the eroblem, that'e why it's lowet. t want to explain the problem in relation only to the existing properties. Mayor Ferre: All tight, I follow you. You're going to go over what you left out later on. Mr. Andrews: Yes we'll summarize and come to a 'total. 1 want to single this out so you understand precisely what is happening to the existing properties. Properties that ate not ---- Mayor Ferret t was confused now 1 Mr. Andrews: So When you apply a millage of 10.880 whirh is this current thillage you produce $35,255 million. When you apply the new millage or the coining year of 10.930 against that tax base of existing properties then you will find that the total tevenue of $35,212,000 is produced and is less than the taxes that the revenue that we ate producing froth taxes in the current year. Now let me say that once again. The money that we will have available for operating this new budget from existing properties w111 be less than the monies that we receive from those same properties in this current year. Mayor Ferret So in effect what this means is that the property owner that was in existence last year all put together, all total are going to be paying less that they pay In taxes. Mr. Andrews: Yes. Now let me if 1 have your attention, let me use my hands if you will please to indicate what's happening here so that you have a crystal clear. If we start with a tax base of $3, 240,000 and then you have (1 have to start with the tax base established when we adopted the budget last year and it's at this level) then in February we had a $79,000,000 tax base reduction. See that tax base was reduced by $79,000,000 to this level and then we have of existing properties, we have a reassessment. The reassessment of those properties city-wide caused a 4.65% increase of these reassess- ment properties see of that ---- you follow --- this is with the original tax roll, Here it's reduced by $79,000,000 and this is what's left now, that property was increased by 4.652 so it went up a little bit, but it didn't quite go up to the same level of full assessment as it was at the beginning of the year when you adopted the budget based on the information from the tax assessor, so the tax assessor then following the law because that was a little bit lower could certify a millage that was a little bit higher than the millage that we used for the general operations of the city so that we would produce the exactly the same number of dollars and that we've done and the only reason on that other chart that 1 showed you or on this one there is a total reduction of revenues is that I felt it was'orudent not to change the millage of the debt service and carry the same millage. We could have increased that debt service millage by an equal amount or equal proportion to the operating millage and we would have produced $42,000 more and if we would have done that it would of balanced out so that the two figures would have been identical. Mr. Plummer: Idon't understand on February 26th revision where 10.88 produced 33.7 for round figures. Then we come up here in June and 10.88 produced 35 million on a less assessment than what you had here. I don't understand that. This is by a million and a half dollars. All right on the 26th of February 10.88 raised 33.7 based on 3102 up here 10.88 raised 35 million based on a 3.2 Well it sure would be a lot easier if you kept everything either on 100% level on a 95% level. This way you are trying to jockey back and forth and you can't tell the difference. Ok, fine you know what the 95% is now of that figure. Mr. Andrews: Yes. Ok, now lets go to the next one because that wraps up the millage comparison. 1973-74 we had a debt service millage as indicated and a total and then the operation millage of 9.655 total millage. 74-75 that was set at 10.88 total of the two miilages. In 1975-76 here is the comparison of the debt service millage between the two years which we kept the same or recommended that it remain the same and then the certified millage that's applied to us by the tax assessor of 8.619 which is a slight increase of .3 SEp 2 19M .05 inttease over last year's tillage due to the fact that the total tax base is slightly reduced and that requires then the total tillage or 10.910, Now we take the existing property tax bast and the new additiohs which are 205 fl 11iofi dbllers and that then totals 3 billion 596 fitillions times 95% Which is the aiouht that 0e can apply the ml.11age against 3 billioh 417 million then the yield pet till as a' result of that Is 3 tnillioh 417 thousand dollats multiplying that against the 10,930 mileages produces a total of 37 tni111oe 348 thousand 760 do11ar13. This ik just e chart because the question continually is taistd"what is the telationship of ad valorettt tax revenues"of the total city budget and there ik 41.8i and that's debt service and everything included and then the debt service itself is 8.8 attd general operating Is 33Z. le other wotde if you exclude debt 1/3 of all out revenues ate produced from taxes. it's getting down to when you consider that in a government at large as this that - and we have an 89 million dollar budget - that 29 Million dollats well the tote) of the two ie faitness, the 29 plus 7 which tepresente 37 tni.ilion dollars-e-- taxes is very good. Mayor Ferre: Paul--- I. just want to make a comment hete at this juhetute. Everytime I go to a national conference of Mayott and the League of Cities or what -have. - you. I ask just about every Mayor that I run into what percentage of their total budget comes from the ad valorem taxpayer and I've yet to find someone as low as the City of Miami, I don't know why. Cincinnati for example is an exception, but Cincinnati has teally what it amounts to an income tax. Not only on the citizens of Cincinnati but on the people that work in Cincinnati which is a very, very unique situation but aside ftotn that I don't know of a city that gets as low a percentage of the total budget froth these local taxpayers directly from it. Because of course what we get ftotn federal or state government really is taxes too, but I'm talking about direct tax. Mr, Andrews: There is one other matter I'd like to point out since we ate getting involved in that area and that is the last line the 29 million includes what could be considered 11 million dollars in Sanitation cost to operate that funetibn. Mayor Ferrel Well, 7 think that's an essential thing to point out at this juncture. Mr. Andrews: Because If that were taken out and I am not making caleulatione for that removal but my judgment tells me that it would be about 21% or so, that we would be depending on taxes for operation. That's a very unusual way to operate and ibeidentially there are some other jurisdfcation in Dade County that are now seriously considering removing the garbage and trash frees and returning this requirement back to a tax source. Mayor Ferre: Let me ask you this. Is there any other city in bade County including Metro that does not charge for garbage pick-up other than the City of Miami. Mr. Andrews: The City of Miami is the only one that does not charge. Mayor Ferre: So in effect what you are saying is that if we were to do like Metro, Coral Cables, and everybody else does ; that is charge for our garbage collection and deduct that 11 million dollars from the 29 million then we would be down to about 184 million dollars that would be what we would get from the ad valorem taxpayers which is close to 20%. Is that the going rate? Mr. Andrews: That's right. Mayor Ferre: Which is really unbelievable. Absolutely unbelievable, which I might point out. I just want to make all--- I think everybody here is an employee or department head or some relationship with the City of Miami. 1 just want to editorialize real quick- ly that this is why there are some forces in this community that want to get the City of Miami into Metropolitan Dade County and the reason very simply if you stop to think of it. is that out of 90 million dollars that we will be getting to spend. We are only really getting 20 million dollars from the taxpayers. So in effect we've got 70 million dollars coming from other than taxpayers sources which when you take into account. Let's take for example the Metro budget which is 240 million dollars. If you take 240 and you were to add to that 240- 70 million dollars come from other than ad valorem aou,rces that's an awfully nice little sweet package to take, see and in effect you only have to get from the taxpayers what amoants to 20 million dollars, so it would be a tremendous windfall to Metropolitan Dade County because if you will as I remember looking at their budget they're getting about 401 of their money from ad valorem taxpayers, is that right? Mr. Andrews: Absolutely, more than that. Mayor Ferre; About 441 as I remember looking at it. See and if you remove the garbage collection we're less than half of that. I am talking about Metro. 0ur's is 33%. SEP 2 1975 i t Mt, Andrews: fat operating. Mayor Flue: Veit- tot operating forget the debt Sttvice because that really doesn't - I am talking about opetatiottal ekpenses. And all Pin Saying is that out of that 332 what Paul wee saying is that if you take 11 million doliats tot gatbage collection and go out and charge like Mi.aleah, Coral Gables, ah8 Mettb does; then we would be down - you see instead' of 29 million 4, ae'd be down to 18ts tnillibh dollats which would be around 20%. In other words, out of out totel budget we ohly get 20% of it from the texpayets, ditectly ftoth the taxpayet. To put it in anothet way that we get over 70=well no that's not quite ttue- because you got the 7.8 fnillioh for debt setvite, but if you wete to take 37 from 90 how tmtch is that? About 63 million dollAts that we get other than the ad valorem taxpayer, That's not 70 ,63 minion dollars. that's why it's such an attractive package. Mr. Andrews: Mr. Mayor, for the benefit of the ptess and the news media so that there is absolutely no misunderstanding. 1 am hot advocating or tecotntnending that we do anything different than we ate doitrg as fat as out getbage collection and the way it's funded, but by way of Comparison if we ate comparing one govetntnent to another in Dade County as what you've just gone thtough is a felt way of looking at the city's services attd how they ate funded. Now 1'd like to call yout attention in case you have any quest- ions with reference to pates 10 & 11 before we proceed any further to indicate to Mayot Ferre: Paul, before we get into page 10 & 11 of the budget. 1 think While we ate on the subject there is a lot of people who don't follow always why it is that we don't collect a fee for garbage. 1 think it's important on the tecotd at least from our side of it and from my side of it anyway to state on the record why, The reason vefy sitnply is that of our total tax base Which is thtee billion 200 and some odd Million dollats, The percentage of commercial property, big buildings downtown and that type of thing le ptob- ably 7 or 800 million dollars, because the downtown is 450 million and if you add the others ---- so what in effect you ate doing is you're making the coimnerciai aspects and the businesses in this community carry the burden of collecting the garbage for the home owner. Now, if you were to transfer that and collect a fee then the burden on the small homeowner or the apartment dweller would be very. very much higher. So in effect it's a small guy that would get hurt and this is a way of equalizing that and spreading the burden a little bit from a commercial point of view unevenly. but I think for the homeowner it's a break and I think it's ( philosophically) I can accept it. As Mayor and as a commercial property owner. For example, the building that we have just to give you one example like hotels in the buildings. we have our own ---we get private garbage collectors to come in so that in effect we are paying double. Because we are paying for the taxes that are for the collection of garbage and yet we're paying our own you see, which is all tight. I have no objections to it. Mrs. Gordon: 1 have to speak to that, because 1 discussed this with Mr. Andrews Maurice and it isn't mandatory that commercial users get their private haulers and maybe we ought to consider that aspect because there could be savings to the homeowner as further savings if --- Mayor Ferre: You got to be careful now Rose because --- let me give you an analogy of that. That's like telling a Catholic or a Jew who is sending a child to a parochial school that he must send his child to a parochial school. That's all right if you do it on a voluntary basis and the commercial owner too decides to pay for garbage pick-up on a private basis but if you force them to do it somebody might take you to court on that. Because in effect when he's pays,:& taxes the way we are doing it you see you are charging him for that and he can say well you can't force him to have ---- Mrs. Cordon: I know I pay for private hauling too in the building that I own but because it's a better cleaner, neater, and it's not a lot of garbage cans in the back of the store property, but I know that you can't charge one segment of the population and not another, but I am just saying that particularly in stores where the tenants don't necessarily contribute any taxes other than the owner of the property contributes to our tax roll. The garbage if there was a legal way of ioing it and I don't know that there is. The garbage pick-up ought to be done on a single pick-up basis which is the large receptacle which all tenants use, instead of the multitude of small cans which are presently being used. Mr. Andrews: Mrs. Gordon you realize that we do have this service available and that if you wish to switch from the small cans to a large container, the Sanitation DEpartment will assist the owner in making those arrangements and we would make a collection from the large container. Mrs. Gordon: Without charge? Mr. Andrews: The charge would -- without charge if the amount of materials deposited is equivalent to that which is specified in the ordinance and for each individual business- SEP 2 1974 es for cans twice a week. in other words a total of eight cans. of prorating that to the container va. the number of and mile of building. And if it works out thnt way that that's all they're use ohe large container and still rer:eive the service --�� Mts. Gordon: That certainly makes for a cleaner situation isn't neceesery right now. Then we have a why businesses in a given contributing, you could 1 VOA tontiftue. tt Mr. Andtewr.: Ok. Now I wool to call your attention then to page lU and 11 ni 9nu1 commit;sioh book. I'm doing this really to assist the Cofmnissfan, ybu will hake a decision whether you want to hear frotn every eingfe department director or not, hut I want to point out and maybe to save time so that we ran get into other areAs4 patticulatly the ponsion budget, deecribe to you that the Office of the Mayor, City Cotfifni9Rton4 City Cletk4 thy Elections. The t.aw Department is the first department that you've cone upon which requires an increase In it's budget or with the current operations and jaYincipally due to merit increases and cast of all other matters having increased somewhat this past year• There is no change in personnel. And then you pass on down to Civil Setvice4 planning Zoning hoard, City Manager, Management Services, City Physician is the next functionwith the same number of personnel that requires a slight increase in their budget and theta principally due to merit increases and the cost of certain commodities. Then the next area is Police which have a total of 44 positions increased in then' area of operations and their budget is increased by some$900,000. The 44 positions are 18 additional jano itotial management and servicing as far as the building operations concerns itself in- eluding the new service station. In addition to that there is a variety of new positions, clerical., and administrative within a department to assist In that total modernization program. If we can het into the details of that if you wish by identifying each position. Mr. Plummer: Excuse me lather, let me pursue this, the PSA Program, is that under a federal grant? Police Service Aids -- Mr. Andrew;: Yes. M. t'lu^une-r: Has that grant been renewed'.' Mr. Andrew:: 1 think if we made applications. it's been renewed and we made applicat- ions for another year. Mr. Plummer: When are we funded until? Mr. Andrews: I don't have the exact date yet. Units October 1st. Mr. Plummer: Of this ycc.r'1 7f? Mrs. Gordon: Have we also been refunded for the Tricultural program? Mr. Andrews: January 1 of this year. Mrs. Cordon: With what outlook for continuance? Mr. Andrewe: Not as bright as we'd hoped but we made application and we'll have to wait and see. Impress our point as to the need to accomplish this ---if it's not accomplished that way we are going to have to find some other way to carry on that program. Mayor Perre: We are going to have to do some lobbying on that. I think we have to get with all our congressman and all our friends to really lobby for us on that. Mrs. Gorden Especially since they want us to finally achieve a only way we can achieve that goal is with that kind of a program. Mr. Andrews: That's right. goal. And the Mr. Plummer: Paul, let me ask you where did the money for the Spanish classes come from? Did that come from Tricultural? Mr. Andrews: I can't remember. Mr. Plummer: WELL it's my understanding that the Spanish classes have been dis- bandied. Mr. :Andrews: That's what people understand but that's not what I've proposed and it nothing we're going to try to accelerate those and provide more classes than we've had in the past and particularly to keep the noon time class active, We'll find a way 6 SEA' 2 1975 a way of achieving that some how. Mayor terre! Encase the but Father Gibsoh have a question. Fathet Gibson! Mr, Manager 1 don't kndW whether you toad a letter that eItiten wrote to the Mayor and all of its got Copies. He was vety caustic iti that letter. He was putting the police enforcemehts °vet against given Stout titationa, Now, it Setts --- 1 was a boy Scout I don't look like it, but 1 wa5 a Boy Scout and I want to tell you that Boy Scouts tender ah invaluable servite it► that they keep us ftom getting to the police(you khow what 1 mean).. Ok. 1 would hope that you got a copy of that letter and that you would make it your business to talk with that gehtle= than. In view of the fact that 1 bee we ate getting 40 tote people in the Polite Depart., Meet and t think we heed to let him understand. NOW, I get =- teal upset attd uptight Mt. Mayor about the way some people castigate the service of this cotfluhity. whether 1 pay out of ahothet pocket ihto the County and 1 doh4t get half the service, Pot instance, I just visited a person yesterday who was telling the that they made a call saying that it was robbery, this was out ih the County. Between Pertihe and what ever that place is down there 128 Street, that it took theta something like 5 days to have the Police Department teepond. Now t don't thihk anybody says that about tie and evety once and a while it's nice to toot your own horn. I am going to say that so the paper can pick that up. They pick up a lot of other things about tie. f hope they pick that up and I think that we ought to say something to that gentlemen aiid ease his anguish, because Mr. Mayor that letter that you wrote you and 1 found it its the Middle of the vacation when I came back for one thing. That was a tathet caustic Letter, Mayor Ferre: Well I haven't teed it so -- maybe I should say I'tn happy that I haven't Lead it of I'm sorry that I haven't read it, But you know while we ate on that point and i know that see Mt. Andrews and the Administration and the Police Chief since they ate professional. They ate professional in the business of running the city and the police department can't come out and make the kind of statements like the public servants tan Make, because they have to deal with Metropolitan Dade County and they havetoget along with Ray Goode and their counterparts, so they have to be very precautioua about- but you see the point and it's the whole point, the whole premise and I keep repeating this because believe me the City of Miami in the next year or two is going to be under serious attach and pressures to merge with Metropolitan Dade County as it has been in the peat but I think it's going to Increase, but the whole premise of it really you have to understand is it was very unfortunate and it was very sad that we had these unfortunately County incidents with the Fire Department, but the proof of it is that if you look at the amount of firemen and also police personnel ---- protect the 360,000 citizens of Miami oh a per capital basis or on a service basis there is no comparison and the reason why the County always gets in trouble Let's take the Fire Department is because one of our firemen have -"X" number of square miles and "x" number of buildings and "x" number of people to take care of and if you look at the number of people that each firemen in the County have to take care of --- what is eight, nine, times larger? They've got ten times more people and much less equipment, so what I'm saying Is that the reason ---the strongest reason for the exist- ence of the City of Miami is the quality of service that is rendered to the citizens by both the Police Department and the Fire Department in a concentrated effort -- one last thing --- I don't know how many of you are aware of this but 1 understand that 50% of our fire budget goes for preventive fire services. Now as 1 understand it there is no other major community in the United States that has this kind of quality service. And the reason we have such a high rating, the reason we have such an excellent service is because we are spending half of our money in preventive. I would hope that someday we could say the same thing, for example in the Police Department, Chief that we are spending half of our money in preventing the crime from occurring, rather than the enforcement of putting out of the fire. I think that perhaps this has no place in the budget discussions, but 1 think we got to talk about these things because as we analyze this budget we have to understand that the City of Miami is rendering a quality service which is really unsurpassed in this community.- I think- not that we are becoming defensive about but I think we got to be aware of the facts so that we can be proud of the kind of city that we have and the reasons why we come up with a budget like this. Mr. PIummer: You know even though we wouldn't have it any other way. Maybe what you are saying Mr. Mayor is that we are doing the County an injustice because they always know that we are back here waiting to help them when they get into trouble. If we weren't here to help them they might have to do a hell of a lot more than what they are doing. Mayor Ferre: Let me put it in another way. If the County were to give citizens of Dade County, not in the City of Miami the same quality service that our Police and Fire Departments give to the people their budget would have to increase by well over 100 million dollars. Mr. Andrews: And include garbage and collection fees, the way we do. Father Gibson: Mr. Andrews since --- this may be a little ahead, but I want to raise "tr SEP21975 to i another question. I see where we would teduce a number of people it the Building Department. Nobody in the Building Department told Me to say this i dottit know who runs what, but I can tell you this+t hope that does not ineati we have to waste one week to get an inspection. Now again 1 have a probleh ih the County. Now when I want an inapectioh in the city 1 can set it up tot that mottling,, you khow what 1 mean? 1 hope We ate not heing penny wise and pound foolish. t hbpe 1 dotitt have to say ahymure than that. Mt. Andrews: Yes it special Mrs, Gordon: I want everybody to pay adhere to what the Mayot said because he hit right on target with the Police Department and that was that out atteltiott should be focused on the prevention asporta of crime. I an particularly etphasing it now because you at1 know how I feel about the ptevention and the youth that ate involved in crime. So thank you Mayot for your comments, t thought t might put a special emphasis on it. Mr. Andrews: The next budget is that of rice which has an ihctease of 14 people. This principally tomes about as a result of tcducing houtse of work from 52 to 50 hours requites an increase of some 200 thousand dollars. The increase was greater than that but there are other economies that were made which netted out an thcreaee of 200 thousand dollars and then you pass on down to Communications Department and evert though there has been a teductioh of personnel due to the termination of the Metto agreement with the city to provide telephone servicing that they are going to the whole cehttex system there is a substantial increase there when you look at the size of that budget and principally due to the telphone chatges which increase $108,000 if my memory serves me correctly{ that's information detailed in our detail account so we can get the actual figure, but the prin- cipal increase is because of increase telephone rates. Father Gibson: Mr. Andrews I want to raise another question. I could only trust the professionals. I hope that does not mean a decrease in the service nor in the efficien- cy.Now,as a clergyman I think it was you who said "I heat the kind of ptobieitts at that church that I heat here and so I live with this kind of a problem. I hope that what you are telling us here about (you know) what they're going to ----in the centre* and all that I hope that does not mean at. all ---- because I hear always a goodly percentage of my patriarchers live in the County. Ok? Richmond Heights area? And that aitt't the way I hear them talk. Mr. Andrews: Well, this is a matter that, that aspect of this total budget, the payment for the telephone service. The service itself is one that like everyone else and you do too; privately contract with the telephone company to furnish that service. Everything we've learned and Mr. Demby is here, he can elaborate on this. The centrex system is an improved system over what we have and hopefully will reduce some of the problems with the telephone company they're been experiencing. Father Gibson: Ok, I'll do it another way. Mr. Demby, where are you sir? Mr. Andrews: Now, there is one more matter that I want to point out before Mr. Demby comes forth and you talk to him. We are conscience that in that particular area of our city operation that some additional adjustment is going to have to be made as far as the technician for our own independent communication system that - that be. increased because the Communication's Department does require some additonal technicians to really bring them up to the capacity that we need to service all of the departments. Particularly, Police and Fire but keeping the total telephone system separated from that so we don't get the two of them confused. Mr. Demby ---- Father Gibson: Ok, I'll like to ask him so when I preach on Sunday morning they don't say "Father you aren't telling the truth." Mr. Demby, you heard my concern, we in no way would Iike to have the service of this city diminished, reduced. As of now Theodore Gibson may not be happy but I could sure live with it. Mr. Demby: Father Gibson, I think I understand what you are saying, There is a change in the type of service that our telephone service in the City of Miami should be you can pray for this on Sunday, but everytime we have a rain we have trouble. Our, service should be considerably improved with the new centrex system. There is a change which brought about through the Miami and Metro going into separate systems in which you will have to dial eight digits to get to County Manager wherein the past you only dialed five. Your service from Dinner Key that dial the Police station and all no longer do you dial anything but the four digits. The County and the City is separated as of the 15th of September. Now, I contacted the County and with the permission of the City Manager just co see what we could find out. We offered to pay the tie trunks between the two we'vd pay for half and they would pay for half. And their decision was they didn't see where it would be any helpful advantage, nonttemergencies, just dial the eight digits SEP 2 1975 and get the ndmbet. Out policettetgency fire tines and police abet we do haste ditieet lihee fot the etetgency traffic. rathet Gibson: I don''t undetatand you sdy that ineteaaea the et itiettty tot the public or does it dectease it you kfiow that's the ohly thing that i t:dh edy to the people, And my Membeta can't utidetatafd that on Sunday thhtting. i elitii t gb thtough all of than. Mt, 0eniby: This would tot change the public. It Will change the tailing between Nisei offices and the county offices=z= -= it will be increased by digit* 8 digits instead of 4. Father Gibson: I see, Mt. Hemby: But it does not ihctease of handicap the public in calling in even With Mt. Andrews: All rights the next area of really significant ihcteabe is the Pension, Social Security, and Insurance. I don't know what the Cotiiniaaion'S wiehee ate about heating from the Department bitectors but I would like to take the title to go thtough this pension budget now so that the Commisison has appreciation of what's occutting there and then we'll follow your ditections Mr. Mayor and members of the COMatiabibti as to how you want to ptoceed ftom that point on. We do want to have a discussion with teferefce to the employee groupsand as I lay you tan call on anyone one of the bepetteent ]litectets you wish , The Pension budget is increased ih this budget estiivate by some $700,000,00 plus or minus and that is based on... Mr Plummet: Mt. Andrews. I'll have to take exception with that statement. The Pension budget itself sit, is only increased $544,000, pension itself. That's page 137, Whereas, last year based on the normal funding that we have followed for 35 years it increased $2,715,000.00. Mr. Andrews: All right I stand corrected. $544,696 , that increase comes about as the result of changing the funding of the unfunded accrued liability from 20 yeats to 35 years. Had the unfunded liability funding remained at a 20 year level we would have had to increase this budget by an additional 3 million dollars to achieve that. I felt that was after all of my reading and reviewing and answering questions it's my judgment that the pension system isactuari"found if we use the 35 year period and so that the Commission has appreciation of really what's happening here. I went through the trouble over the weekend of putting all the general kind of information that's contained in this actuarial study--- The plan and the system. I produced a chart that I would like to show the Commission because it describes current conditions of the Pension System and if you'll bear with me? Mayor Ferre: Wait until. Reboso come back. I think we should all be in here. Let me ask you this, in most other cities that have some kind of retirement pension plan set at federal government and state and what -have -you what's the norm? You're going to 35 years. Mr. Andrews: From my readings and my understanding it's 40 years. Mr. Plummer Wait a minute now, ok, Mr. Mayor when you are ready to get into this area I'm ready to go because 1 want it understood this whole conversation right now is completely backward. For example, the question that you just asked I agree with and have no trouble with that a 35 or 40 year funding is fine, but is that this pension plan (and remember that this pension plan went broke in 1939) and one of the problems and one of the ways it went broke is this same kind of funding that we are looking at today. Mayor Ferre: Well, I think terribly important issue that we really have to get into and I'll recognize you for full discussion. I think the way we ought to go about it now that we are all here is let's let Paul go through ---- and then I'I1 recognize you for a full discussion. Mr. Plummer: Mr. Mayor you asked a question and I think you've got to have in my estimation an answer which is more in line than the answer that Mr. Andrews just gave. Mayor Ferre: J.L. I withdraw my question until Paul finishes and then we are going to get into --- and then I ask the question again and I'll recognize you. Mr. Andrews: Starting at the left hand side of the chart the contributions that flow through the Trust Fund and incidently, they flow on a monthly basis is first City. contributions at an annual basis based on the way we funded it here it would be 8,100,000 dollars for the up -coming year. Then the Employee contribution which is divided between the system and the plan (the, figures that are shown there and to the annual contribution) 9 SEP 2 1975 nod then there is also n cnnttibution from Off=Street Parking, State, Water 6 Sewers, and Metro hocauat employees who transferred froth the City of Matti ate §till patt of out system --- that wan privileged. They mold exeteise at the tithe they tfahtfetted. This was a concern you hnd at One point -- t:ntnmissiehet Gibson 'that the eetployeee would not lose their prtvilcge if they chnue to exeteiae it and that aeeoutita for 'that, So the funds flow into the 'trust acid the next aerie§ of boxes three bf theft, the ohtj in blue, one le red, and the one in black taidettwath it are patt Of the trust fundt3. I had a hard tittle trying to figute out how to do that but decided that this was ati easy way to show this. Now the upper portion of those three boxes the 15,0004000 and the 78,000,000 represehta the adjusted assets of the city of 97,000,000 wteh we say adjusted at when the actuatiea infotb us about adjusted assets what they ate saying is that this is what the assets should be had they beeh earning theft normal tate of return which ---- 411 of 4 3/4 and we experienced a loss of some 19,000,000 in the sale of assets at the time that we bade the adjustments in the way we ate now employe nut money tnahagets. So one portion of the ttust then is the adjusted assets acid the actual assets represents 78,000,000 and I will ° explain how that 519,000,000 will be made up. Then we have an unfunded accrued past setvice liability tight at the pteee1 time, not for the future but tight at this moment of 145,000,000 and that 8148,000,000 comes about because on the day that you grant a pension etholument and it's ,bade retro- active then that becotnes a matter which which you must fund. That becomes fixed except principally for two areas that will cause it to change and cause it to change upward and that is that any new pension benefit that would be granted which would be trade retroactive would ineteaee the unfunded accrued liability. Any salary increases Vdy_gtant to etnbittVees after gtanting a new benefit will also cause an increase in the unfunded liability. So those two factors contribute an increase. If you eliminate those two factors; those twb principally, there may be others that 1 am not aware, but I understand those are the principal ones. ?ou would have stabilized then,the unfunded accrued liability and you can tnechanically set a time period as to your ability to pay that off and that would he it. Now, the next wild last box is really the very, very lmpnrtAnt area that you should have an undetetatlding fot and that is the funds that we receive;we are current with our current requirements , Itt'other worde, in addition to making up the funds of the unfunded accrued liability we're providing en a month to month basis pension for all of the retirees and their beneficiariea.Now that's very impottant we are current and this budget proposes that continues and remains curtest. Now the 819,000,000 ---- there is no surplus, Any monies that are not required in that last box once the budget is set automatically flows through the unfunded accrued liability.tf there is any reduction in the requirement below, any surplus that are generated flow to that unfunded accrued liability to offset that. Inaudible Well, it's my understand- ing that any funds that are not required to keep us current to pay for the beneficiaries and of the retired employees. Any amount that is excess of that requirement flows to the upper portion of that illustration which i.s the unfunded accrued liability or to the assets. Now the $19,000,000 sale of assets. (loss of assets). Maya• Ferre: Walt, wait a minute, going back to that box down there, you have 728 people in the system ar.J 748 in the plan. is that the total amount of people that are covered? Mr. Andrews: Yes. These arc• retired. I took that right from the table to the actuarial ---- Mr. Plummer: That's both normal and diMabillty retirement. Mayor Ferre: In other words, these are both normal and disability retirement. This is the total amount of people that we are dealing with 1600 people? Mr. Andrews: Including beneficiaries. Yes, this is everyone. Mayor Ferre: Everybody included. Mr. Andrews: Yes. (ok?) Father Gibson: J.L. before you take the tiger I'd like to make sure that I want to raise two questions and that tiger will also deal with my question, ok? A11 right. Mr. Andrews: The $19,000,000 loss due to the sale of the asset Mayor Ferre: Are these actual losses? Mr. Andrews: NO, this was an actual loss. Mr. Plummer: No, this is a paper loss, Mr. Mayor which occurred when the money manager (one in particular)sold the entire portfolio to reassemble the portfolio. Mayor Ferre: If he sold it. It wasn't a paper loss. u SEP 2 1975 tip Mt, Plummet: Well it's sold but thetc is no teason that taftnot be gained tohit:h Waft the ultimate motive of which see that's why 1 say this is all ttfifeit, Mt. Ahdtetaa is showing you all of the negativism that is occutting bete and I411 tehtut that'ft it's negativism is correct; but bets not showing any potaitive fattots; he leas go from there. Mr. Andrews: I Am but Mr. Mayor this gets so complieated only if you doft't step the world at some point and examine what you got and that's What Vitt etteetpted to AO based oh the the date of 12=31-74 ant that's what the actuaries ate attehptifig to de, if they go beyond that their actuarial report and indicate what the tequiteeteti.ts ate and whatt the unfunded accrued liability will be and the requitetnents really and the total fund is to ptogtess onto take everyone that's currently employed at tote point When they will retire, But that's in the future, well what I'm trying to deflitt in this that is What ate .the conditions tight now it you were by some waive of the Magic wand say we Waite going to pay for everyone including those who wero employed and those Who att. out on pension. What would out requirements be today? That's what 1 tried to look et, Mt, Plutmner: Paul, you know, if you say as of today 1 would agtee, because as of 12=31=74 we were still in a negative factor as to what the fund was tetutning, You know, I't11 kind of happy and proud to tell you ih the last two quarters of that fund we have alidwtt bettet than an 11% return on our money. That doesn't show there: Mt, Andrews: But, I'm going to explain that.if you'll just beat with the for a fitoment. Now, the loss as a result of the sale of the assets, The actuary said that the loss occurred because we were changing money managers and because we hope to imptove out positions so that the earnings and the future would increase over the earnings in the peat. And that was the reason the loss occurred, so it's fair than to fund that loss in a pact= iculat way. And what they have recommended and what they ate including in the actuarial' report is that we take and break the 19 million dollar loss rivet a ten year funding cycle and take and say we'll make two million dollar payments and the last year we'll make one million dollar payment. So the first two million dollar payment we'll fund that over a 35-year unfunded liability cycle and the reason for funding it that way, it could very well be as Vice Mayor, Plummer is pointing that it may not be necessary to ever do that again because the fund will be recovering at such a rapid rate as a result of these new investments that, that 19 million dollars will be made up in a much shorter period than the 10-year period. See, it may not be necessary to do this any longer. So then, the three areas, the unfunded liability itself, the loss due to the sale of assets and the requirements of current retirees and beneficiaries from the city's requirements. The city's contribution then on a 20-year basis would require $10,957,000.00 and on 4 35.year basis would require $8,100,000.00 a difference of $2,857,000.00 and I have asked Mr. Mayor, the actuaries to be present so they can talk certainly from a far more professional point -of, - view as to the actuarial soundntas of this entire plan, hut there are certain areas of the report that 1 want to make sure that 1 want to make sure that you are aware of, because the words to mu speak quite loud and clear and indicate that the city does not have the kind of problem that on page 9 of their report. I want to read n portion of the requirements under the 30 and 35-year funding. Thu alternative available to this City Commission. And 1 want to point out so that l don't misrepresent what the actuarles have put in this report. They are not recommending this, they're reporting factually here's the requirements for 20-years, here's the requirements for 30-years. Here's the requirements for 35-years. They're given us information on 40-years as to what over governmental agencies are doing and what the new pension law which has been adopted by the federal government and will become affected this coming January and the full requirements of that law are not yet known. The regulations, I understand will be available in October or November and this is since the City of Miami is following Al e'f these guidelines anyway. It does not constitute a problem to us, but it does constitute a problem from any other pension funds who must gear up and meet the requirements by January 1st. The actuaries report that the new pension law ERISA, even though not yet applicable to municipal plans recognizes as a satisfactory funding period a maximum of 40-years. Florida Statutes relating to premium tax refund monies under chapter 175 and 185 adopt the same maximum 40-year standard. CPA's in adopting rules for showing pension costs and accounting statements use a standard maximum funding period of 40-years. Therefore, there is solid president and well accepted legal and other standards which could clearly indicate that the city would not be acting in -appropriately if it adopted a longer funding period than the one presently in use. It was on the strength of this and other information ... lir. Plumper: Mr. Andrews, let me ask a question? What that doesn't speak to and as I said before I have no qualms with from any benefits this day forward given,the 40-year funding fine. hut it doesn't say anything in this recommendation or report from Kruse and Ling of making it retroactive. Not a word; From this day forward, fine: If this Commission is aware of the funding at the time the benefit is given, that it's 35 or 40-years, I've got no qualms with it. But no on page 9 or page 10 does it state of going back and changing the ball game. Am I correct? 11 SEP 2 1975 Mr. Andrews: No, I don't think you nte. Mr. PluMmert Well, Rhnw me le here where it r:nys ie go back 40eyears. Mr. Andrews: Maybe, what we should do at this point is to have the actuaries bathe forth and have them present whatever factual inforthation they choose to pteaeht to assist the Commission, of recommehd Mayot Fetre: Ate you basically finished with your presentation at this point? Mr. Airdrews: Yes. Mayor Ferre: 1 think, if it's all tight with the Commission , what I'd like to do then J.L. is let's get the actuary, let him 'hake his statetttent and theft iih gaing to recognize Father Gibsoh for the questions that he has and then the tiget gets the chance to grab the other tiger by the tail. Ok? Mr. Plummer: 1 only want to ask one question before the actuaries start. Since this recommendation did not come from either hoard. I can't speak for the Plan patticulatlyi but I know for the systems because I inquited, it is solely the Managet'is putiiett that did this, is this correct? Mt. Andrews: That's right. Mr. Plummer: All right. Mayot Ferte: All right, let's get the "representatives of Kruse O'Connor and Ling. Mr. George Ling: Good morning, I'm George Ling, Kruse O'Connor & Ling, Let the make a couple of general observations first and then perhaps answer any questions that you might have. Mr. Plummer: Excuse me for a minute, Mr. Gong will you come up here please? Go ahead; Mr. George Ling: First for all, in a very general way, the City of Miami has suffered from many of the same economic ills that have plagued other cities throughout the country and this includes with regards to pension matters and otherwise. For quite a long period of time since 1940 and we know for first hand since we've been involved in the city Retiree ment System and Plan, the funding has been on what we would consider to be a very, very conservative basis. At :east for the time that we have been involved in it. I would even say in a sense on an ultra conservative basis. For many years. we had a normal economy. Maybe, it was normal and maybe it wasn't, but we thought at the time that it was. And we had normal salary increases, we had more or Less a stable situation in which to work. Then about four or five years ago, when inflation' became what it has been the last few years, and other conditions developed such as, the stock market,(problems in the stock market), the investment climate in general. The City and virtuallv,eyery employer, whether private or public responded by granting salary increases which matched the cost of living and in many cases exceeded the cost of living by taking the steps that you have taken in the change it your money managers in order to upgrade your investment performance. These things held all pension cost increases, particularly, the salary increase situation. I don't want to get into a discussion of whether or not it the salary increases granted have merit, be- cause that's really beyond the scope of the work that we do but never -the -less, everybody knows there have been s,itinificant salary increases in the City of Miami and everywhere else the last five years. You're had a very strange stock market, a very strange bond market in the past five to eight years. You're had under the Miami System and Plan Benefit Increases Legislative Benefit Increase in the past 5-years. Without going into the merits of those benefit Increases, I am merely stating the obvious fact that these things all occurred. You knew at the time as did everyone, that pension costs would go up as salaries increased and also as benefits were increased and so forth and these things were all done with the tore knowledge that pension costs would increase. Now the matter has been severely compli- cated by the rate of inflation that we have faced in the past several years and this is really the inflation that We'ye experiencing is really at the heart of this problem. Suffice to say that if we were to continue on with a double digit type of inflation for much longer another two or throe years, probably every Retirement System in the United States or virt- ually all of them would have to be severely curtailed completely restructured because you benefits(the benefits under this Retirement System and Plan) are based upon a person's salary at the time of their retirement. This is very common. This is the usual approach to take. When you have incredible inflation as we ho'.c had, this causes retroactive in- creases in benefits because you are basing your benefit for a person, let's say has been with the City for 30-years, you're basing his benefit on the salary that he receives at the time of retirement. In the period of inflation this almost causes runaway costs. We've seen that happen with city after city, this is nothing unusual. So what we have suggested and what was requested by the City Manager this year was simply thist since we have been conservative in the past and since funding has been that very sound basis in the past on a much more: sound basis than was the case for most municipalities, can't we now, SEP 2 1975 that we ate facing a a teal financial etieis wbith was in many tdaya trot out own fault and I'm Speaking how (when t say "out") I'm teally talkit:g about the City as an rtnployet, rah't we hd0 take advantage of the fait that rot all of these ye&ts we wete so tehservative7 And out answer to that is yes, you can, the fund is not its trouble at this point, Thu ate not taking a ttemendous backward step by going to 35=year funding, instead of the 26=yeat funding. You ate giving youreeives tdt,te flexibility. You would still be operating within all of the sound guidelines adopted and generally accepted ih the actuatial industry and the pension industty ih general. It would be fine if you could fihd attothet 3 Million dollars on yout budget fot this year et►d de' posit that to the retitement futtd,but What we ate 'telling you is that to theintain the fund oh a sound basis you dott't need to do that: Now, 1 Would like to sound a note of caution at the sate tithe. Some things that we have been thentioning Duet the years and sotsething that you all have been vety much aware of and that is; that you bust be very cateful it granting benefit iht eases; You inust be fully aware of the coat ihpact itt futute years, You must be very Much aware of the investihent situation. You twat be awate of the disability situation. These ate ell eteas that Merit vety close watching. Now you have been watching thet4e things vety closely. These have been Monitored very carefully. Thete ate sothe ptoblets in these regards that haven't been totupietely solved, but there are some very good two at the sate tithe. The good signs ate for example,, your testtucted investttent program. You've now taken your loss and your heading to bite the bullet now, but you've taken the loss, The disabilities which have been a probe= lets and which have contributed to the high cost appear to be abating at tewhat, that is your rate of disability is not neatly as high now as it was thtee years ago. These ate the good signs. We think that without making a flat tecotnthendetion as to how much you a`oza contribute to the plan because that is really your prerogative. We think that by going to the 35=year funding that you Will still be operating on a sound basis ptovided you tot, tinue to watch very carefully all these things that 1've Mentioned. The disability, the investments, the othet administtative aspects of the program, the granting of further benefit increases and so forth. So, with those vety general comments. Oh, let me make one mote comment which really bears on the situation. Something that we've done that does not appear in the reports that you have was to do a cash flow, just to take a look at your income versus your disbursements under` the combined system and plan. We find for example that In the calendar year of 1972 you had a positive -cash flow of about 4 million 900 thousand dollars. 1973 It dropped off a little bit down to about 4 million 700 thous- and dollars. 1974 it jumped way up, because you had a big increase in your required contri- butions that year. Mr. Plummer: Excuse me, would you repeat that again? Mr. George Ling: Yes, 1 am talking now about ... just cash flow and I'm ignoring in these figures any losses or gains created by the sale of assets, because that is a thing which is under your direct control and the subject to timing... Mt. Plummer: You do relate cash flow to city contributions? Mr. George Ling: Oh yes. Mr. Plummer: And you said there was a decrease. When? Mayor Ferre: No, no, he said that in 1972 there was 4.9 million and 73, there was a slight decrease of 4.7 million. Mr. Plummer: No sir, then the figures that I have --given to me by the Manager are wrong. Mayor Ferre: Talking about cash flow... Mr. Plummer: No, well cash flow and city contribution runs hand in hand. Mr. George Ling: I'm talking about the net amount of money coming into the fund. The increase in the size of the funds. Mr. Plummer: The figures which I have show in 1972 that the contribution was 38 in 73 it went to-.. in 74 it went to 78 and this year it's only to 83. Mr. George, Ling: No, these are not the figures I'm talking about, but I'm talking about the city contributions, employee contributions, investment income. Mayor ferry: See, you're talking about two different things. He's talking about oranges and you're talking about apples. Mr. Plummer: No, we're not. Mayor Ferre: Well, as I understand you are talking about the city's contribution... Mr. Plummer: Correct, which goes hand in hand. Remember Mr. Mayor, that this pension fund 1.) SEP 2 1975 has to stay actuarial -,, This 'pension fund cannot go btoke. Because it has ,an open end funding, Mayor Ferro: Unless the City of Miami gees broke. Mt, Mutter: Ok. Mt. George Ling: The only point I'm trying to make is that in size yeat by yeat and is now with this projected 35,yeaf increase at a much fastet tate than has been the case. the fund has been itictehaing contribution would cofttlnUe to Mayor Fette: Mt. Ling. you didh't finish, because you stetted by saying this 4.9, 4.7. you were going to tell us about 74, Mt, George Ling: 1974, the bet cash income tose to 7.7 million and on a exttefnely conger, vative basis we think. we would project that fot this torrent year 1975 =� calendar year that the net increase would be about 7,4 million, approximately. Mayot Fette: Let me then ask the question following up what Plumet started? If the City of Miami contributions in 72 Were 3.8 when yott say the net cash flow is 4.9 and theft it goes to 5 million in 73 When you say cash flow was Mt. George Ling: Exactly. Mayor Ferre: And then it goes to 7.8 million when you say that cash flow was 7.7 and now in 75 Plummer says we're going to 8.3 million where your cash flow is 7.4 then 1 see of increase in the City of Mtami contribution with a cotresponding decreaae cash flow. Noy, would you tell me why? Mr. George Ling: Well; one of the reasons as I said this is a very conservative estitate and arriving at the 1975 figure. For example, we are assuming an increase in benefit pay- ments of from 7.2 million in 1974 to 9.3 million in 1975, now that's a ttetendous increase. And we're only doing this to be on the safe side, on the conservative side. Mayor Ferre: Benefits payments? Mr. George Ling: Benefits payments, yes 'et' beneficiaries. It was about 7.2 million in 1974 and we're rejecting a very conservative figure of 9.3 million for 1975. Mayor Ferre: Over a year, now wait a minute ... Mr. Plummer: No, not a all. You're talking about the contribution per person. Mayor Ferre: Yea, that's what he's saying.... Mr. Plummer: About $3,600.00. Mayor Ferre: Oh, I mean 5 thousand don't I? Mr. Plummer: 5,000 if you hold to the 20-years and remember that also holds to 41% of payroll. Mr. Andrews: Mr. Ling, would you repeat the one significant area you're trying to impress upon the Commission and also it's stated at a second and third time ---- and that is even with the 35-year funding of the accrued liability that that's being funded faster now be- cause of these contributions than it was in the past under the 20-year plan. I'll state that again in your own words. Mr. George Ling: This is the point I'm trying to make. I'm trying to put your mind at ease a little bit with regard to the financial strength of the fund and my only point is that in the past two years you know have a positive cash flow. Money coming into the fund after all benefit payments and so forth. For approximately 71 million dollars, whereas a couple of years ago it was running between 41 and 5 million dollars. Now this is another positive sign and this is even with the 35-year, funding of the acrued liability so .. Mayor Ferre: Where are those funds coming from? MR. George Ling: They are coming from city contribution, the employees and investment income. Mrs. Gordon: In other words the main reason is the additional investment commitment. Mr. Ling: That's a part of it yes. That and additional city contributions in the last SEP 2 1975 twv years. 11t. PluMMet: tut where x4,6t course this is Mone}+;t temet6bet that go to tbdute the acctucd liabilities. Mt. Ling: Part of them yeA. Mt. Plummet: That's tight; And I want also you to speak to Where dad that ehhaetvat, 1st cote ftoth? tt just didn't happen, Why was this fund so cohtetVative? Mt, Ling: Well because the City Commission was contributing substantial amounts ih telat#oft to thy Liabilities involved as were the employees. At, Plummet: Let's speak to the real mnttet Mr. Ling, 11t. Ling: Well, t''m not sure what you mean Mt, Plummet.... Mt9. Gordon: I didn't hear your. question J.L., would you repeat it, please? Mt. 1'tumhet: Where did the conservatism come from? And 1'11 tell you Where it 'tame fttitit the fact that this fund was only getting back a return of 4.34, that's ultete the congetvatigm came from. This fund was getting taped, Mts. Gordon: You mean prior to 74. Mt, Plummer: That's right: Involved in this, you know, that's when they got the tiget (I wag before then referred to as a Rebel), Before that they wete getting 4.34 return oh theit money. That's where the conservatism came from. It didn't just happen. It had to be. Mayot ferret Rut, what's that up to in the last quarter? Mt. Ling: 1 don't know the most recent figure, Mr. Plummer: The last quarter we showed 11.6... It would be hard to say Mr. Mayor, I didn't average it out, but call it 11. Tape 3 Most of it Inaudible both things all I'm saying is this, somebody didn't read, you know: And Martin Luther King used to say anytime yda want to hide something from a lot of folks nd you weren;t doing this, because you wete in another city and the only way to communicate is to write. Say write It. What he meant was an awful lot of people go to sleep and don't read and maybe the secretary didn't think that was but so ihportatlt.. Now, it seems to me 1 hear Mr. Andrews saying that he had a copy(sotne of the others iehy be Shaking their heads 'gut now rook: I don't think these people are on trial. Mr. Plummet: Father, please in no way am 1 casting the rather ilib;un: hut J.L. wait a minute you know, 1 ---dealing with people Is part of my hassle, 1cuk! th-tl man expressed himself and I think he had a riglit. Now, if he wrote Mr. Andrew,; and Mr. Andrews didn't get the copies to you, who is the chairman of ,one outfit and the other chairman, then you know, all I'm saying for godsakes don't let do it. You know what I'm talking about, don't let's do what 1 think and sir, please, please you know, we love you, you know, we love~ you. Mr. Plummer: Wait, rather let me say this (for the record), to my knowledge and I speak to my board, we never received such information, the first information we read about a 35-year fundi:tg was in Mr. Kruse recommendation of Kruse & Ling. The point that I want for the record that in the Hanson & Company's report of 1974, it clearly reflects that the medium age of retirement is 5? and that':, where I &ot my figure from, that that figure is right there in their report. That the actual is 5:'. You wanted to say something, go ahead. TO BE 1 yt. 1.1) VALE Father Gibsont All tight. Now 1 understand that. So anybody who had tithe say- in 74 or 75 by the end of thin year wndid have used up whattvet he gbt for 74 or 75. G . Let foe seta 1 undetetand it, The people whc, had time futthef back and hack you did hot take that froth them. Mr. Andrews: No, Father Gibsoht Ok. That's all 1 want to know. I want to make sure: ttecauge I don't think a law could be tettoaetive you know in dealing wlth a Man, t Just want to take sufe that 1 "Theodore" don't enfofce anybody to you know Mt, Andrews: State it another way . If a person is entitled to take 15 days vacation in this yeat because he eatned it last year and he's takeft 10 days aiteady this year. Ile has tine betweett ttow and the last day of January 1976 to take that other week yet. If he doesn't take that week and he takes only 4-days and is 1 day leas he los:te5 that day, It doee fnt'acctiibulate to the added accutflulation that'll taken place in the past. Father Gibson: I follow that. Now --== let ine make sure again Mt. Mayor so t�11 know how to do it ==---- But If he had time before then he does not lose it, 1 just want to make sure. Mrs. Gotdon: Ok, May I Mr: Mayor? rather Gibson: Now what about how you dealt with that number nne•I.et's deal with numher two. Mr. Lanken: 1 can't really answer that question lot you. This is really a matter of policy and t think the boards---- the Retirement Board should be the one= Father Gibson: All right, I'll do it another way. When those unions come here asking for those increases and now that my fireman friend will be here I want to get a positive relation- a -pronto reaction to that kick-off and tip-off that we have. Where these wives marry the second time (you know) and still get those benefits. Ok. You want to deal with them now or do you want to wait ---- Mayor Ferre: I think that's going to be dealt with later on if it's all right if you? Father Gibson: All right beautiful: Ok. Mrs, Gordunt I. want to just get back on target and that is Father asked a very good point and I appreciate the information that came out of his questions. But what 1 want to get back to is the 20 years as opposed to the 35 years and the effect that this change would have if any, upon certain aspects of the budget and fundings, future and present. Now if I understand this correctly, and you reiterated this, there is no damaging effect upon the city taking a longer amoritization procedure on these unallocated funds, is that correct? Mr. Lanken: That's correct. Mrs. Gordon: There is no damaging effect. Mr. Lanken: The alternate process would be slightly higher because it's like a mortgage that you pay --- a longer mortgage you pay a larger amount of interest ouer a greater time. So there would be some additional long► range cost in spreading out the funding. It would not be damaging in that sense. Mrs. Gordon: Well it's the same as financing anything at all where you take the longer or the shorter financing period of time you pay more, but on the other hand you have the money to use in the inter -period of time and then the different is whether using the money now brings you a greater return than what you are paying in the long range, is that correct? Mr. Lanken: That's correct. Mayor Ferre: In that same line, let me ask you. Other funds as you are aware of is 35 years an unusual period of time. NOw I'd say the typical funding period now would run between 30 and 40 years.(said by Mr. Lanken) . This is not unusual. Mr. Lanken: No not at all. Mrs. Gordon: I want to get back to a couple more significiant points because I think that another significant point is that to accomplish this must be done by an 1 � S EP 2 1975 otdihnote change, is that correct Mt. Andtews? Mr. Andrews: Yes. Mrs. Gordon: Ok. This Is not a charter change. Ordinances can be adjusted or afnended or changed that's shout to he done If we accept this recoMineftdatinit that you ate making is that correct? Mr. Andrews: That's correct. Mrs. Gordon: As far as this point and time we see -- 1 see nu hetinfui. effects of adopting unless Mt. Plummet brings up something after this statement that lffo Making that would change my point of view, but at this point and tune I don't see any harmful effects that would be trade to the city ot to pension fund ot to the any aspect of out government by the adopting of an ordinance amending the atnotitiiation of the -unallocated funds from 35 years. There is something that Father said and I was going to address myself too and that was the vacation pay he brought a very interesting point and we realize the need for terminating the unused portion at a specific period of tithe, But I'm wondering if anybody was caught in a web of not being able'to leave theft job because they had no replacement and therefore couldn't take theit vacation tittle and lost it. if there was any circumstances for anyone that was caught fh a bind of responsibility to theit job and because of that didn't get theit vacation time 1 sute would hate to think that they lost their vacation time for that reason. Mr. Andrews is thete anyone that lost time that could have taken it without hurting the city in any way shape ot fore Mt. Andrews: I'm not aware that there was such case. Mrs. Gordon: Well if there was It would certainly beat looking into and some confider- ation he made for those persons if any.wh., fell late that catagoty. That's all. Mr. Plummer: Well, Mr. Mayor I could start off by invoking one of the rules which has not been complied with but I'm not going too, Well, you're tight because the toles and regulations what happened to that? The rules and regulations Mr. Mayor state let me just tell you what It states.- that by May 16th of every year the actuary shall present to the Retirement Boards, their consideration of funding what is heeded to keep this actuariay sound and in no way Mr. Mayor do 1 infer that Kruse 3 Ling have done any- thing wrong it's only because over a period of years we have found ourselves in a position of not giving the set of facts improper timing. Let me tell you what I do find wrong and if need would be i will invoke the rule. That is very clear that the two boards has this prior to the Manager adopted a position and then recommend to the Manager. Mr. Mayor under no circumstances has this been done. This document (Mr. Kruse or Mr. Ling) was given to us. I received the system only about 5-days ago and the one of which 1 sat as the chairman I did not receive until the 19th of August. Subsequently, our board did not have a chance to discuss this proposition in anyway, so all I'm saying to you is in fact the law has not been followed. One point that has not been spoken to at all which we spoke to last year is the ---- fact not fiction of reducing the age that we know to be correct and I'm speaking now to the system size which shows right now that people in the police and fire are actually retiring at 51.96 years of age or if I'm not mistaken approximately 3-years less than what this fund is paying for and this come about over night. This figure is derived over a period of approximately 3-years. This funding this year does not address itself to that particular important fact at all -am I correct? Mr. Ling Partially. Mr. Plummer: Where am I incorrect? Mr. Ling . Well we mentioned at the end of the report and actuarial report we do discuss it. I'll come back to it or answer Mr. Plummer: Well go to that point right now. Mr. ling . We point out in the report that should you wish to assume an age of 52 which is the actual for 1974 which retirement took place, that there would be an additionalcontribution requirement of approximately 600 thousand dollars. Mr. Plummer: But you do not speak to it in the figures. Mr. Ling : 0h yes we show it right here in the report. Mr. Plummer: Do the figures of what Mr. Andrews proposes does it in fact show any reduction? Mr. Ling : Yes. 2ti SEP 2 1975. Mt, Plummer: 'How Much? Mt, Ling Uhe yeat. Ffotn 55 to 54, Mt. Plummer: tut in fact we Mow it's 52, Mr. Lind', . Thin 'Intl yertt yes Nit. Mr, Plummer: No sit, No sit; matter of fart he years ptevious it was siotab, In 1973, It was 51.13.1972 it WAS 514 Mr. Ling : Well 1 don't know how you arrived at the figutes, 4fe have stltie slightly different figures itot that showing in the report . The diffetence Could be that for example, it somebody goes out on early retirement at the age of 46, We do not include theft in the 46 we include them it' the 50 because of the actuary teduction, We also do not include disabilities in that. Mt, Plummer: But they ate reality. Mr. Ling : We fund for them on a different basis right. Mt, Plummet: But a good pension fund shown on a 3-year histoty of age-1 or 2 is enough history to build it up to a point of starting to fund fot that, Mr, Ling : That's right.Uur figures indicate the average for that petted of time is 54 on the basis which I indicated to you. Mt. Plummer: But your basis is not an in fact basis, oh yes it is, I don't know why the difference in figures ---- Mr. Andrews: Wouldn't the difference in the figures In the average come about because of the disabilities having a drastic effect on the average age ih that the disabilit- ies could occur 41 and 39 and 38 and that would materially alter that slight difference between 50 and 55. Mr. Ling If you are combining them all- yea. Hetause the disabilities. the average age for disability was 43. Mr. Plummer: Ok all I'm saying to you is that in the past where you have reduced the age. This year you are only reducing it in the actual payment of the one year where in fact it should be in my estimation age 52 and I think if I can revert back to the Hanson Study of two years ago it did in fact recommend that we come down to an actual -- which we do not address. All right.... Father Gibson: Let me ask J.L. that would be in the favor as to average then, wouldn't it? Mr. Plummer: That is correct Father. That is correct. In other words the average age, look --- we know that the police and fire are trying to get a 25-year plan, ok. I'm not saying for or against it. What I am saying is this we don't find any police and fire working beyond the age of 50 and it's high time as Hanson said 2-years ago that we recognize this fact. We are assuming up until 2-years ago we were assuming it was the age of 58 and it wasn't. What I am saying is that this needs more funding just from the age retirement. The actual age retirement. Because you know you got torealize that if a man goes out at age 38, for actuarial he goes out at S0 but we are still paying that additional 12 years. If a man goes out at 46 the actuarial he goes out at 50 but we are still paying that additional 4-years. This figure does not reflect that funding. That's a very important point. Mayor Ferre: Excuse me but Mr. Ling and Paul Andrews keep shaking their heads Inaudible Mr. Andrews: He's miring the accidental disability with the service. Mr. Plummer: No sir, I'm not. Mr, Kruse just made the statement that where he derived the 54-year age retirement was from an actuarial standpoint regardless of what age they retire on disability. It was age of 50. Am I correct sir? Mr, Kruse: That's right. Mr. Plummer: Ok. So if in fact reality tells you that a man retires at age 38 on disability you're still got him on for actuarial at age 50. All right. Then our records can't be that far apart, where in fact we show a 51.96, how do you show a 547 SEP 2 1915 Mr. Andrews: They got a table right here on page 27 for the system which reflects that it service for 1972,73, & 74 the avetage age was 54,2. 55-years end at 74 it drop ped at 52.2. The accu$iulati;ofi rot those years then indicates it 51,0 54 and the disability is separate, the avetage age was 44.4,43.1 and 41,5 and the avetage there is 43,3 but what l believe they ate saying is you cannot take the average age Of the ate& idehtal disability and tnix it in With the service. Mt. flutter: Well Mt, Ahdtews aten't they paid from the same fund§'! Mt, teiley's figures last yeat when we sat down and figured it the avetage Mean was 51.6. Mt. ling : Let me make a comment please genetally speaking. I agree with you Mt. Flutter the retitetnent age fat police and fire is corning down thete is no question about It. Mt. Plummer; And it has been. Mr. Line; . Right and we don't know where it will end yet. It they very well end at 52 or 51 in which case the city would definitely have to inrteaae the level of contributions made to the system, We are not based on the history of the fund. We eta not prepated at this point to say you must assume this until you see a little more evidence of it, The nattet of disability --- now the disability item is critically important Crete and really does have an effect. Fitat of all, we assume that a certain numbet of people in the retirement system will never tetire on a service retitemeht benefit because they will become disabled first. Now that's taken into account in these figures in fact there is an extremely high assumption with regard to disability in the system. As you know we've discussed before. This has caused a very high level of cost under the system. A large part of which is attributable to the disability cost. So what we ate saying its in essence that you should he conttibutiNg a very large amount over here because of disabilities but because these people who go on disability are not going to receive a service retitement benefit) We don't need to fund them for the service retirement benefit, We ate coi►aider. ing the two really separately. Mr. Plummer: We would like to do it the other way around because the disability benefit is more than a service retirement. Mr. Ling Well you are talking about is a practical matter and there should be more service retirees (disability retirees) I agree with you. Mr. Plummer: In fact the cost of the city for a disability retirement is more than a normal service retire -ability. Mr. Ling . Ah--- this is about right. Mr. Plummer: I know damn well it is. Mr. Ling . Well Mr. Plummer we've been saying this for 5 to 10 years now. It has not escaped our attention. Mr. Plummer: I agree. You cautioned in everyone of your reports but your cautioning is not reflected in the Manager's figures. Mr. Ling . 0h yes it is. There is a tremendous amount of money in that figure Mayor Ferre: Either it is or it isn't we keep going back and forth. Mr. Ling . Let me just put it to you this way if you feel and the City Commission or Mr. Plummer wishes to recommend that you adopt another $600,000.00 into the budget for this purpose that's fine with us. We are not here to tell you how much to contribute to the system. We are here to tell you what we consider to be sound funding... Mayor Ferre: But if you tell us that we don't have to do it and you think it is sound funding to do without that then why should we put in another $600,000.00? Is that what you are telling us? Mr, Ling That's exactly what I'm telling you. I think it's very possible that next year we might have to assume our retirement age of 53 or 52 and eventually it might get down to 51. Mr. Plummer: Mr. Mayor, here is a record, ok. This is the average age of retire- ment for police and fire. 2 Mayor forte': J.L. nobody IS arguing against it. I think what you are saying -= thatis why 1 really enjoy serving on this 'Cothtnissien becauit this is a 'Cofitthihsion 'that's made up of people that ate not only knowledgeable brit have taken the time and intetest live never Chet a man (he's really Mote of a builab g than he is a 'tiger) who gets into things and but -tows like Plutwoer. Now itch gteat -1 think I'undetstand What you're baying. What you Ate saying is the teality of the situation that the fact is that the reality of that situation is that people ate not tetifing at 58 of at 56 of even at 54 they are actually tetiting at a little bit under 52 years and then it's been going down over the last 3-yeats and that waive got to meet the reality of the situation, however what 1'undetstand what It. Ling is sayifig is when you really get down to it it's all a question of money and how (ouch Money we ate going to put into the plan and the system. The firth of louse and Ling act as our actuafieh which means that they Mt. Plummet: No sit, no sit. Let's have a cleat understanding thete. They ate the city's actuaries. Mayor Ferre Ok. They are the City of Miami's advisors. ak? they tell us What make sense and what doesn't make sense in a vety,vefy complicated involved technical area which I certainly profess to have any knowledge of. Now, if they tell us that in their opinion it is acceptable ftom a funding point of view, that this is the way we ought to go,then at that point I think we ought to do one or two thingattf we don't accept thenli then we ought to get somebody else to advise us, Mt. Plummer: Now you're getting to my last point. Now you ate getting to My last point: Mt. Mayor, you know live worked awfully hard on this for two years and I'm happy to tell you that there are a great deal ni things that ate chaftging for the better. Because those are the people sitting tight out there that are recipients of the good or the had and let me tell you one of the provisions that we made and we Made softie radical changes last year was the provision of an outside independent actuary which neither hoard has yet had the opportunity to get because we haven't had the time tor the funding to bring in an outside actuary and there has been some discussion over the three year out- side independent. You know. for example Mr. Mayor it was brought out very clearly in the Hanson report that this fund based on what it is doing today has got to have a 1OX minimum return on it's money. Just to hold the level of today, 10% retirement that's for two quarters. Now let's get ---- Mayor Terre: J.L. 1 what to respond to that. I think that both the system and the plan should have an actuarial independent consultants and I think you ought to wind up at these facts what Kruse O'Connor and Ling is saying subjected to question and you feel strongly about it --- Mr. Plummer: No I don't think it's subject to question, it's subjected to different interpretation. Mayor Ferro: All right then that's the same thing in my language so as far as I'm concerned if you have a different interpretation I stand corrected in the format of what I'm saying and the semantics of it. If you have a different interpretation and therefore have some questions as to what Kruse O'Connor and Ling presented. I think not only are you entitled but I feel you are obligated. You're obligated to ask those questions. Now that hasn't been done this year you haven't gottenaindependent actuary to comein. For whatever reason, lack of funding, lack of time, whatever the reasons are now we are faced not only with this, we are faced with a budget which I hope we can adoptfairly soon.. Now if we are going to get into areas questioning - that should of really been done throughout the year and had not been done. Mr. Plummer: Mr. Mayor I'm sorry that's what I'm trying to bring the point across. We the two boards had no idea that the administration was coming in with an entirely different format. We could only assume that the Manager was coming in with this same foremat that this city had followed for 35-years and out of the clear blue sky comes an entirely different change in the foremat and we did not have the time. To me it would have been fair to .'omment this thing forward and fund it in this budget as we had done for 35-years since the last pension fund went broke and then if this Commission saw the wisdom of going to ❑ 35-year funding, then we could alter it and change it. But it did- 'nt come that way. Mayor Ferre: Are you recommending that we go through that format at this point? Mr. Plummer: Well Mr. Mayor I don't know at this point because my board nor Mrs. Cordon's board have not had the chance to discuss it. We have not had the chance to go to an outside actuary for another opinion. We have not had the opportunity. 23 SEP2175 Mayor Ferret Ndw it we go to an outside actuary at thin point you know that there Is no way lot us to adopt thin budget thin tnohth, Mt Plutntner: Except to hold in abeyance To hold in aheyancc that pottlof► of the pensioti funds. Mayor Vette: Well what you ate talking about in a diftetehce of 2 Million 85/ thousand dollets, Mt, Plutiiiet: No mote than that. Fathet Gibson: Mt. Mayot3 I heat what Vick Mayot4 Plummet in saying nth. hdwevet. I think you ought to kind of get out mihds tested, put it at test, dettainly ale Ate trot blaming the actuaries because they gave the facts. 1 think that there is a change is the game you know on the field, You have to say we11 the Managet changed the tole. Mt. Plummer: that's tight, that's tight that'': Why I asked the question. Fathet Gibson: I just thought I ought to say that you know because it mould give the imptession that -. because I heard that other thing about othet actuaties Was that what I heard? Mt. Plummet: That's right. Father Gibson: And all I'tn saying is I want to put by mind at test and these people are riot informed to give us considered expert judgment and that's What they ate hited to do. Now if and I'm sure they are assumed to be dealt with the information they gave us in the proper manner so we teally can't really blame them. Vice Mayor it seems to me that Maybe we're in a bind all about that if you don't get this budget passed with" in teasohable=- a cettain --__- we're in trouble, Mr. Plummer: Well Father let me bring it to your attention... not to dispute actuaries ok. Mayor Ferre: J,L. before you do that the other alternatives is we are not going to be caatingltl stone forever now what the futute is in this budget. Now another approach to this is for us to go ahead for the plan and the system to get their independent actuary and to get into this time over this coming year and they face this matter* this le not the last time we are going to be discussing this I guar ntee you. The next year and the year after that we ate going to be right smack in the m idle of all of this all over again so what I'm saying is that perhaps one way to do this is for the plan and the system to get into it and prepare for next year's budget. Mrs. Gordon: I have a question Mr. Mayor. Mr. Plummer: Excuse me Rose, I've got to put this on the record. I'm speaking here as a Commissioner. It just so happens that I am also the chairman of that board and I want it to be completely be reflected on the record that 1 am not speaking for my trustees because it is the very point that I'm speaking to that my trustees have not had the opport- unity out of this left fund fielding. We didn't even know about it until the 19th of August. i want that on the record. Mrs. Gordon: Mr. Mayor may I ask a question? I asked the question before whether or not there would be a detrimental effect to the city in the adoption of the 20-year as opposed to the 35-year funding period? Now I want to ask another question, the same quest- ion, is there any detrimental effect to the board , both of them, each of them, from the change in terms of years? Mr. Ling No ma'am. Mrs. Gordon: There is none, no loss of revenue, no loss of any kind, no detrimental effect what -so -ever. Mr. Ling . In going to the 35-year funding? Mrs. Gordon: From the 20. Mr. Ling No ma'am. Mrs. Gordon: And that's the only thing before us worth really for a decision this morning. Is that correct Mr. Mayor? I think perhaps there are points for discussion relative to the pension fund and with regard to the individual boards and their proced- ures and their input but that isn't before us and I think ---- I'm not trying to cut you off J.L. I appreciate everything you had to say, I know your intentions are very well taken, but I think we ought to get on target and get ahead with what we are here 24 SEP 2 1975s to do and that's adopt a budget and to discuss the vatioue phases Of it and I''g satisfied ffom what I've heatd tied itla ih the public tecords and ehybfte is ptivel.eged to that. That there is no dettithehtal effect to the city, there is no detritflental effect to the individual boatde. to the pehttion fitftd i.h Aflyway What& so -ever in the rhanging in the tete of years from 20 to 35=yeata,lot the a ffxittiiatitstl, 1 Want it teiternted as an ahsWet to the ohe Mote tithe. Mr. Ling Yes tnn'am there would be he detrimental effect. Mts. Gordon: No loss of funds,tn the funds, of additional cost of ahy kind, long tahge nt short rsnge to the city. tlhg : No ma'am. Mt, Mayot, since this inattet was 'brought up I'd iikts to take a cotnmeht or two and then I'fh cettain that gd 'Kruse would also. /it the iitat dace Mt. Plun3net thete ate reasons fot the delay this yeat4 for exathple, you took an uhpfecedehted loss in your assets, If you'll take a look at the tepott you'll see that we spent great deal of time and effort on that particular subject so that it would be fully documented and explained to everybody. In the second place, thete wete extensive changes particularly in the planned benefits which were of a very complicated nature. As a tear ult of ail of these things, we also had to tfahsfer of general eftiployeea ftoth the system to the plan. These things were very, very complicated and took additional time this year which would not he the case in the normal year, 1 do not agree that the boards weten't formed after theadministratian of this new format because we had ttahamitted ihfotmstion only through the hoards: When we have transmitted infettation to anyone and the City Manager certainly has a tight to whatever information we have. We have notified the hoards, through the board's secretary; We have kept the lines of communicatiott open. NOW 1 don't know what your internal communications are, but we have been vety careful to keep the lines of communications open from our standpoint. Furthermore, it my impression and it has been for 10 years that we were the independent outside actuaries and as far as I know we still are. In that regard we do not wish to fight with our clients. (commehtrMr. Pluetner- not at all). it.'' a waste of time. It's a waste of effort. ke do not wish to serve ahy.- one who either questions our ability or simply dues not want us working for thee, We would he glad to how nut of any situation like this, Frankly there have been problefos in the last two years which we think have consumed a great deal of time for a number of teasons. person- ally I am tired of a hassle. 1 really am. We have beat ourselves to death trying to be of service to the city and the retirement board and somehow or other as a result of that we seem to he caught in the middle constantly and we feel that their has got to be some changes in the general attitude toward the retirement plan and the systems. That attitudes of the people involved or frankly we wouldprefer to step out of the situation, That's all I want to say right now because I'm getting angrier by the moment and I think Mr. Kruse want to make a comment ton. Mr. Plummer: Well, let me make a comment to your statement if I may? I think I prefaced my remarks by saying I did not find fault with you coming in late with the report I understand the reasons for it. The point that I was trying to make which obviously was overlooked was this new type of funding which nobody knew about except you and the Manager until the report was given to us on the l9th or the 16th of August. That's the point I'm trying to make. The Manager did not discuss with the boardsabout a new type of format. He obviously discussed it with just the two of you bypassing the boards and the boatds have not had the opportunity to investigate, to look into this particular way of funding. That's the only point that I'm making. Yes there is a healthy disagreement been expressed by my board in particularly as to having one actuary or second actuary or an independent if you wish. Because it was in your very report Mr. Kruse that you made the comment about when Hanson 6 Company was brought in on a given set of facts you probably would have seen the same thing that they saw. But they obviously was given a different set of facts then you. Now, this is where there comes a discrepancy and that's from your report of where the facts was in your 74 report. It should be stated, however that the given set of facts and inform- ation, Kruse O'Connor and Ling Incorp. would of indoubtingly had arrived at a similar conclusion as to the anticipated increase in cost. Now obviously Hanson was given one set of facts from your own statement and you were given another set of facts. Mr, Ling: That's not quite true Mr. Plummer. Mr. Plummer: All right sir, would you clear it up for me? Mr, Ling: Hanson did not have all of the facts. Mr, Plummer: Fine. That's the point I'm trying to make in your own report you indicate that. It's old ground, but that is the basis for the discrepancy of the thinking of the members of the board that you in your own report say that either they didn't have all of the facts or the facts were different that they had. You made comment to that not the board. So all I'm trying to say is Kruse and Ling in my estimation has done a very good job and you are not an advisor you're a man who takes in my estimation a given set of facts and comes up with the answers. You don't advise. I can't ever remember you recommend- 2J SEP 2 V71, ing to the board. You've cautiohed, but you've nevet said =we tecoMbehd you do thin atd this. 'that's the one point 1've nude to the Manager about this 3 yeat funding, You athte ifi here that's it is ah accepted ptattice, you don't tetotitfehd it. 1 watt that cleat for the tetotd. Fathet Gibson May t ask a question? Mt. Ulmer: No whets th here do they teti`;,,end it. They say it's acceptable. That say it acceptable but they don't tecom end it. Mt. Ling: We were teapot -aline to the question put to us in writing. a copy of Which the boards have. Mt, Pluntnet: No sit. I disagree. Mt.Ahdtews:?es sit. I put it in writictg peraotally. Mt, Plummet: You put it in wfiting and sent it to the boards== Mt. Andrews: With copies to the Chairman of both boards. Mt. Plunvnet: I never received it. Fathet Gibson: J.I.. 1 u Mr. Plumfner: Did anyone 3n my board receive it? The common practice in my board any letter received by the chairman through the secretary that everyone is copied in and I Bever received it. Father Gibson: J.L. , I said to the Mayor while you was speaking bit that I thought what we was dealing with was and I think you answered it. You said whenever l get an inquiry I respond by sending a copy to the secretaries of -meaning both boards= now and you made a further statement that was very significant to me. You said I do tot knew of the mechanical dealings meaning how the boards operate. That was very clear. Nov heating both things -ail I'm saying is this somebody didn't read, you know and you know Martin Luther King used to say anytime you want to hide something from a lot of folks and you weren't doing this because you were in another city and the only way to communicate is right, - What he meant was an awful lot of people go to sleep and don't read and maybe the secretary didn't think that was but so important. It seems to me that 1 hear Mr. Andrews saying that he had a copy. Some of the others may be shaking their heeds but now look - I don't think these people are on trial. Mr. Plummer: father in no way am I casting aversions on them. Father Gibson: J.L, wait a minute, I deal with -- dealing with people is part of my hussle, look that man expressed himself and I think he had a tight. Now if he was Mr. Andrews and Mr. Andrews didn't get the copies to you who is the chairman of one outfit and the other chairman then you know --- all I'm saying is for God's sake don't let's do it. Do you know what I'm talking about? And air please, please --- we like you you know we love you -. Mr. Plummer Well Father let me just say this for the record. To my knowledge and I speak to my board we never received such information. The first information. The first information we read about a 35-year funding was in Mr. Kruse's recommendation of Kruse 6 Ling. The point that I want for the record that in the Hanson and Company of 1974 it clearly reflects that the medium age of retirement age is 52 and that's where I got my fig- ures from that figure is right there in their report. That the actual is 52. Mr. Kruse: Well Mr. Ling has already stated some of what I would have stated. I would like to say this, we do feel very deeply about this. Mr. Ling has been in charge of the evaluation work for the City of Miami consequently, he's been the principle spokesman here today. This does not mean that many of us in our firm are not closely identified with your situation. As a matter of fact, I've been with the City of Miami program since I believe 1961. I couldn't begin in a few minutes time to tell you the amount of work that went into just this year's evaluation alone; and I'll tell you this. We stand on our word against that and as against it's examination by any other actuarial firm. Statistically, factually, and the intelligence of the opinions set forth. I make that statment unqualiffbly and I would say this further that some things that came out one or two years ago that seems to hit like a bomb as though it was the first time. Nobody was more flabbergasted and astound- ed than us because we had been talking this and including our own comments on it in our reports for years. I believe I can trace it back to 1963. For example, the real danger, financial wise to this city of the increase disability situation which we felt was getting into disgraceful bounds. You worry about where you are headed physically and why many municipal plans in the United States are going broke, I'll tell you why. Ever, escalating benefits and at the same time the consequent inability or failure on the part of city officials to systematically fund these benefits. Pressures from employees for higher benefits 26 SEP 2 1676 Thorn iq .n tttnRiMoui here sotbewhert when people van Petite at ago 50 on 50 to 75% of earning or bettr.t we Ate npptenching an nptllhum. Nett 1 get into tht philosophical eta and 1 wouldn't protest to .day What the ahsWet is although 1 tettnffily noun my opinion and I would give it if naked. But 1 will any tbia ns we get into thP City of Miami as opposed to probably the Majority of the tuhicipal syseffie its the United ST'ates theta has been fatefully monitoted systtmatic. funding. T'hete has been responsibility showf oh the patt of City of Miami officinls and We can ptove this chaptet and vetae tight up to the pteaent and there have been abbe ut' fait and unfounded notes of criticism by people who shouldn't have bade suet( state= meats. The real dataget'• of hate is don't let this get out of hand in the future: Whoever is serving you as actuary, thonitot it carefully, have your lines of cobbuticat.,, ions open, do as we ate now doing and have been ifisttucted. All cobitnunicatiehs to Mt. hen Neagle, the Secretary of the Board. We won'tgive anything to anybody as a matter of fact, including the City Managet without it first going to the Sectetaty of the Boards. If theta is ho distribution of copies of out cammuniciation we can't help that But believe the we've done out best and we would be glad to ptove this to anybody in out office ahytibe. We have done out best to be of service to you, but you have a good system. It is well funded. There is nothing wrong in going to 35-years funding. Mts. cordon: I hope you are not taking this personally. 1 really hope you ate not. Mr. Kruse: No ma'am I'm not, Mayne Ferre: Mt, Kruse since 1 think some emotions are (involved in all of this. Let the say that 1 understand , If 1 was standing In your shoes 1 would ptobahly be a little bit more upset than even you are, but that might be my Latin blond just boiling up and you are a little hit mote controled perhnps than I would be, but let me say to yois sir that I don't think anybody here is casting any disparaging tethatks toward you or Mr. Ling or your firm, your quality, your ability, yout integrity, and certainly we all oust speak for ourselves. I think Plummer was very cleat on that, Rose made a statement. I think we all feel the same way and I for one as Mayor of the City of Miami want to say publicly that I think that we are very privileged to have a firm who has served the City of Miami for such a long time,ynu say since 1961. Mr. Kruse: 1 have, yes sir. Mayor Ferre: Personally. Mr. Kruse: Yes sir. The firm since 1965. Mayor Ferre: And obviously a matter which everybody that has been involved even though there are some apprehensions I think the time in the longevity of your 10 year in this job speaks for itself. So I hope you don't take anything personally, but I think that Vice Mayor Plummer is acting in his capacity not only as the Vice Mayor and the Commissioner on this commission but as chairman of one of the plans and I think he is well versed and he is representing his constituency by asking the questions that he 's asked. It certainly should not be in anyway taken (I don't think) and excuse me for speaking for you J.L. but I think I just want to make sure that you understand that there is nothing personal and at least that's the way I understood it .... Mr. Plummer: Mr. Mayor there is no question that and I've tried to impart that and I believe Mr. Kruse and Mr. Ling both understand that there is no question. But there is Mr. Mayor and they will readily admit as he has said that between actuaries there is a difference of opinion, that's the point that I'm trying to make and we have seen this over a period of time.. There are two points Mr. Mayor that I really would like to make -- Mayor Ferre: Now, J.L. I'm going to let you go and make all the points and then we arc going to discuss but I want to kind of -- so we can see whether we are going to work through lunch or how long do you think you are going to take on all of this? Because we arc pushing twelve and we haven't even gotten to the 10'0 clock agenda with the Department Director discussion. Mr. Plummer: Well, I'm going to probably hove about two more questions, Mr. Mayor and ten I'm going to have some recommendations. Mayor Ferre: How long do you think this is going to take? Mr. Plummer: Well, I'm going to have to let the employees speak for themselves. I don't know how many questions they have.Mr. Jaremko i§ a member of the board. Mayor Ferre: I'm just trying to determine whether we are going to work through lunch. Mr. Plummer: I would prefer to work through lunch and maybe get out a little earlier this afternoon. 2. SEPt 2 *71 Mayor Forte: Well you know how these things wotk. We always think that we ate going to get out earlief and it just like and I see it Sometimes ih thy business -it doesn't matter how much work that's available = you knovi ovet1itne is always going to come up and it doesn't mattet how muth wotk it's always going to end up being the same amount of time. Mr. Plummer: Looking at the agenda unless we'get into a long big hassle, the only thing we have this afternoon is the Depattthent Directors which I undetstend ish't going to take long, then the employee group =So z=� Mayor Fette: Rut this Is long enough of a hassle as it is the way we ate going this thing is going to take a long tithe to detettine --- Mr. Plummet: 1 exptess fot thyself, I ptefet to wotk through. Mr. Andrews: Mr. Itayof l tecognize the Vice Mayor has just said but I think it will awful start if we just even took one hoot to have lunch and get away from the table here and come to some point of conclusion and go For lunch and come back. Mayor Ferre: I'll agree with that. Mrs. Cordon: 1 would appreciate mote than the hour since we had planned on mote than an hour. 1 made arrangements fot more than an hour. Mayot Ferre: What time do you have to leave Rose? Mrs. t:ordon: Well- come hack when you callus back, but i -K - our agenda calls for a two hour lunch period and if we took an hour and a half 1'd appreciate it. Mayor Ferre: All right let's see if we can break up in the next half hour to forty minutes, all right and we'll come back at 2:00 O'clock. Mr. Plummer: Let me proceed Mr. Mayor and the statement that I want to make is maybe a fatalistic Statement but I think it has to be made. We are watching Mt. Mayor across the country of all of the financial problems that different cities are having and based on that we are looking at one city In particularly that's going to go into probably a bankruptcy and an article which I furnished to all of you most of the major cities are in financial problems and conceivablely could go out of existence. The point that I'm trying to snake that if you take this nut to a 35-year funding and Gad forbid something were to happen to this city itis still a cost that is going to have to be picked up by the people of this city to bring this fund up-to-date. The second point that I think and I am not trying to compare the City of Miami with the City of New York except in philosophy,(except in philos- ophy). One of the great criteria that has tot New Tork City in the problems that it's today is deferring the inevitable.The inevitable is that this amount of accrued loss has got to be paid. This year we are freeing up some 3 million dollars that would have gone into this budget had this time not come out of left field 3 million dollars. Now if this city goes back in and next year it goes into 4 million dollars and the year after 5. All we are doing is deferring the inevitableind these are the philosophies that have got some of the major cities in this country in trouble. Rightfully so these benefits which have created this liability were given under a certain set of circumstances namely 20-year fund- ing. What we are now doing or contemplating doing is to go to a 35-year or if I can have the latitude of expressing twice as long almost to defer out the inevitaole.You owe some- thing;you pay it. When we gave the benefits we gave them under a 20-year funding. Now we are turning around and saying well, we can't afford them, let's take it out to a 40-year funding and I think that this is dangerous because it will do nothing more but allow the flexibility of saying,well,we can do because it doesn't cost as much on a per year basis. We are faced in this country as well as this city that next year we'll be operating on a reduced budget from what we are today and'I say to you that I think this is a dangerous pattern to set. Mrs. Gordon: J.L.'I want to say one thing that if we don't and you are looking at the -- maybe the eventual demise, that demise is going to happen a whole lot sooner if we don't go ahead and recognize the fact that the economic cannot stand the 3 million dollar increas- ed budget in this community, certainly not at this point and time and since I've heard so far nothing which would be of a detrimental nature either to fund our city, I just don't know why we are spending all this time really in all deference to you and I know you are very sincere in your remarks and your position. I'd like to hear from Mr. Jaremko, I think he has something maybe he wants to add to it which might again make a difference in my thinking. Mr. Jaremko: I'm one of the trustees of the system and I'd like to get your attention to the twenty vs, the thirty-five years in the cost. I believe you said it was negligible ---`what was your term that you used as the difference in the cost Mr. Lanken? 25 Mt, tafiken: About theee Million dollars: Mt. Jatetnkot 1'tntalking about over the twenty=years as *polled to chitty five obviously When you atllittise something over a longer period it toritd you Mort motley correct? But what t did was Multiply out the thitty-twn times twenty, 1 got aigute nt 852 and 'theft 1 also Multiplied the 24 out by 15 now the differehte that routes to me just 'through a little :pocket calculator and I don't say that 1 could be Wttieg it's about 29X difference, in othet words, the increase cost to the city of 29% and what we are doing is sweeping the fiscal tespoh ibiiity onto futute genetatiohe of the City of Miami and 1 think this has been one of the biggest ptobleftis With this fund by not tealiaing the attuel age., by not tealiting the ihtetest assufltptiott, the proper ones we have have as a policy swept this thing fUtthet and futthet tiMd'e'1'the tug and ona day the chitkens edam home to roost just like they did it flew York City and I thiifk at the heart of this ptobleth is the fact that we do hot as a board of trustees who ate charged with this responsibility do not have any authority and another thing is that we brought this to the attention through I4t, Silver at one of out first meetings and I don't know what it takes to make the administtatiot► cotply 'with their city ordinances but it still hasn't been done. Mr. Andrews: Mr: Mayot and members of the Commission, 1 don't know what otdinante he's refetting too. Mt. 'Plummer: He's talking about it would cost the city 29% Mote to.smottise over 35 years rather than 20, is that what you are saying Mt. Jaremko7 Mr, Jaremko: Yes. Mrs, Gordon: That's not what Mr: Ling said, whose tight and whose wrong, I want to know? Mr. Ling: 1 didn't give any specific figures, it would cost mote as I indicated just as though you refinance on a mortgage. Mayor Ferret If you take a mortgage that you have a 20 year mortgage and get a 30 year mortgage of course it's going to ,.,+qt. mon,. Mrs. Gordon: Yea, right but sometimes you're paying an interest rate on a mortgage which is less than the money invested in some other manner would return so in other word it could be a net profit on that basis so you can't really tell. It all depends on how good our money managers work with our money. Whether they raise us up more than that 29 year you're talking about. Mr. Plummer: Mr. Mayor, I think the point is well taken now I hadn't done that calculation but to me - excuse me if I disagree with you but 29% more for spurting it out more over that period of time is not negligible. Now that's my opinion which I'm entitled to. Mr. Ling: I don't disagree with you I'm not sure about the 29% I think what he'd done is just multiplied the dollar payments if he's arrived at the 29% increase. When you take into consideration the interest facts it's actually somewhat smaller than that. But I never said negligible -- I did not make that statement. Mr. Plummer: I'm sorry. Mayor Ferrer I've kept kind of quiet through this whole process and now I'm going to express myself, but I just want to say this. I understand what you are saying Mr. Ling or Mr. Kruse(no Mr. Kruse was the one who made the statement about at what point) you know we are getting the 52 years of retirement and we get so many benefits. You know J.L. Plummer talked about the City of New York to both of those statements. The classical case in recent history is the country of Uruguay.It became such a fantastic welfare state that people from all over the world including Switzerland and the United States were going down there 20 years ago to see what progressive legislation really was all about seeing the way Uruguay was working out it's social problems. It got to the point where people in Uruguay started to retire when they were 50 years old and then it started to get even lower and all of these benefits mounted out to reach the point where the country actually literally went bankrupt. Now, New Yorkand the City of Miami is a completely different situation. I don't think that they're comparable in any sense. I don't see any similarity. In the first place, if you were to say New York and Metro now 1 would see the Symbt/'1M/.I don't think it's there any where as close but I am a firm believer that the real problem of New York is the subsidzation of government. one thing that the founding fathers of this country was scared to death of was giving too much power to the central government and in effect the same fear that I have about Metro. It obviously what happened in New York if the people of New York had been broken up and kept it's eightboroughe instead of making one large great city 70 years 25 SEP 2 1975 ai;a 1 so on would It was the ,.:rnt r;t why New York i , has 200,000 „t.., sity t irri<,;r:. to go. 1), you hitt it's so;,t',t}iikr�; along spends i t) na great museum el Now if Miar 1 Sin,' and all. `tte ,;teat bureaucracy that :air;t a damn thing : Miami .Is no whare -r+':,; think we've g a panic c-ond i ti•, think the wori:' to be cr a dt•; : c what's ir:r fonds }.. t • h, eiving t t r ,-no - that: comp tal: 1 from k,i;3': 1 rri city in t b' nhvitwat, he taken you nhe: t Much i flan, and it went. i a : reason of New York and yet a arrive;-_ f:Od.000 students tlo, exact figures of Now York .., ;seun which is a of New York. a=d a great museum all of the ct'rttte could do ;ut the, city of nndition. I t create either :ace before us, 1 *ere we ate going 'i''Iat.ion of 20% '-'-tS1 t'?1.l you c t :,r: whLt these etoherec ,.nnc' sharingn, set fri '.ding, ry other souror then 111 have to '•+ re surd tell it`::; them, guess a to what we d I tell this toa it .n banks ter, .. n;r 've et t Iic tr< pia i;ti on growth ,tk. f 1966. honk ali these ;rCc?ii. •:.r t:,n:. ..., .. --within a year dt aro wrong. •1he 1-10 i is nu acturara t e that what they aro r timstes, they'te :let is that we've got to la,a anee of ange every slag:, \ ..t rn,.d I will go along wit'n .it.i ,t.k is in yout opini, r. '--i - apgrc)arh it you think t . the year 1975--1976 is car if I. t happe-e to t“, , t „'; ... '.inri then for that coning • ar questions f actuarial „et. refitr.tita lfStr•!1 ! got ;ts him and he another 'Joctei, to make double te.ta. opinion that', il.a of 55 years: t: ' reasonable ; .- ''1 . today. .''iavb, e;' inedible government .`i r,o. any excuse. RepuLlicons rho: i 9 billion ,.,;i1s1r, '.;i you know facts and °u happendd Lo arguments ., .. he's wrau; Id: that c,ucit government d it you any f i you need t'': not a 1; that's fine atter I see I go to that I just want 1 •.ii fcrence of the fact that instead :Kett i;uestion is reasonahle as of i t ing, off the do '.ou think the fr vn' r. give us and the r:T ±t:;try budget al ct,inion, but on't have all the rsfi remember what , all these . ::t it 1 think I deficit by U ltea States W. ?ro going to SEP2 1975 have a deficit of ovet 60 billion dollars this yeat and it looks wo ve 'tot hekt yeat and the year beyond that is even worse, gut as Hubert Humphrey said the other day if you make a salaty of twenty thousand dollars a year, "does that fbeah that you can't gn out and buy a thirty thousand dollat house because you only take twenty thousand dollars a yeat?" or me you going to pay fot that tnottgage1 atthlt yOu assuming that you ate going to he alive and working five, ten, yeats froth new?! So- all I'm saying ism pataphtasing what Hubert Humphrey said the bthet day, it that we ate going to have to take the teality of ten yenta ftom now into account ttfi yeats from flow and I thifik what we have to realize today IA, is it teasonable fot this yeat and is it reasonable as fat as the 'ten year ptojectittt = is it teehottable as to how it looks ten yeats ot twenty yeats ftom now? Now, I'm not an ettpett oh 'those things and if Mr. Kruse and Mr, Ling and the people that ate involved in advising us ot at least giving us information so that we can make decisions (say) that uttdet questions that it is reasonable then at this juhttute of the game unleaa proven othet- wise. It's ok with me, Mt. Kruse: Mayor Ferre may I make a comment fot one of two minutes? 1 agtee with all you've said. Really what you are talking about and what you ate faced with is the question of Incidence of funding.Now- your ate on systematic funding: So you ate talking about the incidents of payments. whether it fund over twenty yeats ot thitty yeats. Let me make an ihteresting observation. Priot to the passage of the tecent new fedetal pension law that we're all... you'te all fatniliat with which etttabliahed standatds fot funding and which recognizes completely the legititoacy, the technical confidency of thitty and forty year funding. Prior to that tithe the inajotity of corps otations in the United States that had pension plans were funding on an interest (only) basis, This goes beyond thirty and forty yeat funding. Now, as they could ... as they were able they would go from interest (only) to fotty yeat funding ot thitty yeat funding. Now let me make this futthet observation. As, between corporate and municipal glans. Corporate plans stand head and shoulders above municipal plans on the fiscal sound- ness of their pension funds generally. It is in the municipal sector whete there have been problems. so what you are talking about here today is not disaster funding It is n question of the incidence of rhr nnytnent , and is a fully recogniaea concept. Mayor Ferro: I want you to repeat that just this ---- this is not disaster funding what we are talking about. What was that last statement you just made? Mr. Kruse: It is n question of the incidence of payments. In other words, the use of money. Does the city have greater need (say) this additional apptoxitnate three million dollars in other avenues? Mayor Ferre: See-- that's the whole crux of it. I wanted the newspaper to hear that. Mr. Plummer: Obviously, it is the case or it wouldn't even have been profitable. Mayor Ferre: Well I want to make sure that ... because that to me is the key statement of what's been said here today. Mr. Plummer: Let me just ask one final question? Do you disagree that the funding over a thirty-five year period will not cost more or not less than twenty-five percent more in cost? Mayor Ferre: Look, wait a minute. excuse me. I could give you . . I've avoided getting into this thing because I don't want to get into an argument. •I could give you twenty different arguments. As to for example, if today's dollar if you put it in an index of 100% would you tell me what the dollar is worth twenty-five years from now, because that comes into play in all this. Mr. Plummer: I'm talking about on today's dollar. Mx. Kruse: Yes sir, you are correct Mr. Plummer you will pay out more money in the long run by going to thirty-five year funding as to twenty year funding. That is a correct statement. Mr. Plummer: Is it correct that it will be in the neighborhood of twenty-five percent? Is that a fair figure? Mr. Kruse: Mr, Plummer it could be. I'd rather actually work it out. Let me reserve the point on that. I can't agree or disagree. Mr. Plummer: Well, what I'm trying to say is this;that it is in fact going to cost the taxpayers, the city, the taxpayers more money to fund this out over thirty- five years than it is under twenty under today's 31 SEP 2 1975 ir:;t rnn I'm ttvtr; t., it, round If xe a`Pnt lift. Kt'';., . his mat;c r tr the thin:-f9� i 'iai`i F` i et ,irn'1 1 i.ti ., and t it 1 lio t1 k i'.. (•- is the, ball ihc- u4C? of tu' l ni: could than Mrs. Qotdon gt` to in the Now, The t, it and t'r cee �.fpYt?7 1 '-'i time. ,. i:::Y:rt:nte and mean more ^. he pensiion iavenues for a:teent I'm i 11t relative :"', what is the Cite and .1 t iri up rrt. 3i(1St it. r4 unmy in my . s... f dtt Coo 'tt, letthem y y :i1-s from S,EP 2 157n, now. Right nowt 'I'm thinking of what's; log today and 'I think that what Yon ate nay hi for the 111y ul Miami,and I Win' 'thettl ti• Mt. 1't.mmmtr: Well, I'll tell you What fund and loan It to the city because we art4 making 20,;. to lot them att of now. The way 'I net it applying It (film Ifs that wluit"'s -beat i t+� r 11 'I xenttis to take "th i p tou te. , lct'tr take all the Money in the peitainn not Peaking 2 9,' on out money. 1, e'te not Mts. t;otdnnt J.L. 1 would question that 20t annual petcent annual figute you just said as not being something that we could back up with figures. I mouldntt want to even use it until we could verify it. Mayor Ferre: I think that's a completely and dangerous if we start tacking about without really knowing the facts. It doesn't cost anything... i mean we don't know that it's =- how could it possibly cost 20t a year? Mr. Plummer: That's my point for the last hour and a half. Mayor Perte: No way in the world... father Gibson: Mr. Mayor ] think he should've for our friends purpose you should've added that other thing that you said about that emetgency fund .... Mr. Kruse: Yes sir. My statement was that embatking on a program of thirty or thirty-five year funding of this past service liability this does not.. Mr. Andrews: Mr. Mayor and members of the Commission to elarif y one point it'll only take me two minutes. I wanLti+ relate to the sequence of events as well as I can remember they occurred because 1, Fie letter before me that I wrote to Mr. Ling, In that when I first made inquiry in this there were no written documents. It Was for general information that I wanted to know some of the questions I raised with regard to extend- ing the 'funding period and Mr. Ling and Mr. Kruse were good enough to give me generalized information, but they would not give me anything in wrltlnte. And quickly reminded me at the time that 1 was raising these questions that their first responsibility was to both boards and that occurred about the middle of June. l can get the precise date if it becomes Important that I find it. On June 26, and I want to read this into the record. 1 wrctt the following letter to Mr. George Ling of Kruse O'Connor E. Ling. (tear Mr. Ling: in preparation of the 1975-76 fiscal budget it has become increasingly clear that the City of Miami is experiencing the same conditions faced by most large cities in the United States. In that,currc:nt economic conditions among other things are causing a significant reduction in revenues available to each municipality. These reduced revenues together with escalated costs of commodities, supplies, and services required for efficient operation of the city bring great constraints on the city's financial ability to finance it's operations for the coming fiscal year. I fully realize that you are required to submit an annual evaluation report to each Board of the Retirement System and Retirement Plan. However, as City Manager of the City of Miami, I must impress upon you our efforts to exhaust every possible means of potentially reducing costs to meet each of the city's obligations due to the extremely limited sources of revenues available to the city. For this reason as you are in the process of preparing the annual evaluation report for the Retirement System and the Retirement Plan of this city. It is requested that you review all possible, reasonable and legal methods which you can recommend for con- sideration as being acceptable alternatives from an actuarial standpoint for possible reduction of the required pension con- tribution of the city for the 1975-76 fiscal year. It is fully understood that such recommendations will only be included in your annual report to each of the Pension Boards. I recognize that your primary concern and responsibility is to supply the city with an actuarially acceptable funding plan. However, you should be aware that the city will be faced with the most difficult task based on financial information available at this time if the city's 1975-76 Pension Funding Contribution ex- ceeds a range of 8 million 100 thousand to 8 million 250 thousand .33 SEP 2 1975 api.Lry, Yeo. rrr stir>n . Mr. f'' Mriver Mr. Father M r . Plummer: Fat hor t 'i t- ! w .Jtv\ _ . corr ttn' G_•: ,.h1 i rurr i1.wr!,1 tor Trc, tbP i t t t m,>n anci {I:ISKtc°c:: -r, nl c rm- h,rat flan iS-.rard t,!wt funding t ct�r ,it thi=t dtrecter it thEin..1B 1'vr ane that'fi 011 t.hc t i,;:E „na itt teased z.atletncan Is going to r yr,ut time t lie Govern-• wc7t:::r rc Snc1 the members r:t°sn millage nt last year, ,hot there would not payers. Because IlA make a riving ate occreAon, not only And our Baierd of Realtors osk:fty.. them to do ,;1 the budget. I have ti lanc.[t, n[E.'mbers of our ;ail morning and I've rod 1:-! .ple here an •rtad i t scoff. And ',,:,ti'e air_•+rdy been bald. ,,ccur if the city is r=.. cars [,f itself as az t,,nt on that some sometlmes tee,t'lc.si,: is here. :;iicxa;arz, Hialeah hs ri t irc< t leet of '.a:. wro-- 'able to reduce ty . Fib did this on -111 that you gentle - hi the city, may be t ii.: t that in the HI payrolls f;fG,t,etry. 1 have an SEP 2 1975 excellettt article here in business 'Week Magazine that points out that industrial pay= tolls duting the petiod 1955 to 73 increased 12424 Whereas$ siueicipai tittd State pay - toll incteased 165% and tedetal paytoll itteteased 1812 tot cohpeable ampioymettt, Now, this meats that tunicipal anti county efiployeeg are gaining relative tb their counterpatt in private industry and private hugitress at a 33t faster tate Atid IR the cake of the federal govethhent we're Slot here to talk about today. Their tatty bf pay has been Incren4tng at the tete of 5oz'Nato- then ptttnte employment With the faetg at hand we(know that one person ottt of 6 today wotka rot government. the othet five ate the producers that make it possible for the '6 to be in govefntriettt. Novi, We btittg this on outselves but I think it's safe to say that with the fringe bene£itg, the catty retirement which was very much in evidence here today, days off and the athet nice things that ate available to municipal and govetnment employees that it's n ."tidet that almost just about everybody doesn't want to work for the govetnsieht. And i think we are rapidly approaching a tithe when the private sectot is going to 'have to say the government at all levels, not just the city level pry, You're paying gout people proportionally more than the producers on the fiting line and particulatlgwith the fringe benefits and the fact which is the case if once hired, Seldom ever fired in municipal government situation. We see that this thing is going to have to cotfie to a leveling off if not a decline because the taxpayers ate counting on government to do that for theta and 1 think it's safe to say that the city exists to setve it's citizens and not solely to provide an exceptionally generous place ftom tunicipal employees of kinds to work. And one mote thing I'm not hete to nit pick. 1 didn't go over the budget l think it's probably safe to say that there are depatttoents and areas wherein your administration and you people up here can find ways to save a dollat to teduee the nutnbet of employees and particularly I see a danger coming that with the 42Z of your budget (only -421 of your budget) coming froth ad valorem you've got 58% coming ftom outside s utces and I think it would be very appropriate to take a very good eagle eye on the sources of these revenue and not let the city payroll numbers and employment get up to such a point that if the federal government or the state government cuts hack those programs that the city won't be wanting to raise the ad valorem taxes to cover programs that have been funded on the outside. You're already talked about that a little bit here today. Mr. Andrews did, but this is just a private citizen, a realtor, a represent- ative of the property owners speaking to you,asking you to weary not of well doing, to keep on doing the best Joh you know how and I hope that you will join us in fighting for every dollar of savings of taxes to the people of the residence of the City of Miami who pay our bills and I thank you. Mayor Ferre: Thank you. Mr. Plummer: just for the record, Mr. Andrews referred to a letter this morning that he supposodly and I'm sure in his thinking did send to both Mrs. Gordon and 'I and to the secretary and I want the record to reflect that I did not receive this letter doing the lunch break I checked with Mrs. Gordon secretary,she did not received the letter. I checked with Mr. Ken Neagle and he did not receive the letter. So, I just want for the record that this letter was never received by any of the parties that it was indicated the it went to. Thank you. Mayor Ferre: Did it come out of your office? Mr. Andrews: Yes sir. Mayor Ferre: Well, I think you better check and see what happened. Mr. Plummer: It does show Mr. Mayor on the letter that copies were sent to the Retirement Board and the Retirement System and a copy to budget and Mr. Andrews I think you indicated today that you sent it to Mr. Neagle to distribute to us which is normal and common procedure. Mr. Andrews: I'm not sure that that occurred that way but I'm certainly going to find out. Mr. Plummer: Well, I never received it. Mrs. Gordon never received it and Mr. Neagle never received it. Father Gibson: Mr. Mayor, this is a Sir, that gentlemen that spoke to us a few minutes ago(Mr. Thomas), I just want to publicly thank you for that presentation because usually most people come down here really to take us to the shed and I think we have an affirmative responsibility when citizens comes and speaks in the manner in which you did to say we appreciate your comments, this is good for us. Thank you sir. Mrs. Gordon: I want to thank you again on behalf of Mr. Thomas. I want to thank you for the Board of Realtors. As a member of that Board of Realtors, it's seldom they get thanked for anything, so your thanks are very welcomed. Thank you. Mayor Ferre: Well, thank you all, now shall we proceed? 35 SEP 2 1S75 Mt. Andrews: Woi 1. wi:., ,;r,r, how would you like to proceed? Mayor Ferro: Sall, t thinst the r ,;u senor whr xc' thtrt, arc ;to 'increase I think we should talk them kti t awl t co ii t t: (:0Miiss:/co wants t,, ojt into any other departments it all tihha ..'h 1•tr. Andrews: Ail iiv,ht, Jet' Mr. Plummet': C:io Chief Hitktnani t�,.ui t2t 1 i e t "i: ;F Hr. AndrewA: Would be t , l increasing the 1,-u-tJs., a point of Chief Heckman: of persc,t,r,vi Manor rt•i re. 'i t Chief Mr. Andrew,. Chief ?'! per vc,t: ' Andrews .. !mod In 14 Inn 1T h. more lied./ Father Chit: tii.:i we work ,,, rt In those fror! , !.fury her, . Mayer For Chic•! Hickman: We had a tlhit:f s r:ia and I'd 111se t .,1-tr+n:a Mayor Ftcrrc: Mr, Andre•r. , Mr, of the 4» pc t u,e.1 , la nt those vosrtioot, Departta;aat t lus 1" that w, _ provide let t le and ,jsarit ctrY.e l we're r i rti, Chief Wat.lt4:, si Li Grant under rl; and t.hwir 3;- er -.o:;t t :, t: evaluated rent; We did foe! five posit ic; Analvt-:ts 1, persunn..l and the were a,'v t s<•.: tng. it woo then and find out mmission the need for rant and that wii:l be irs with zero addition u ur's. when it started with u o reduced two hours <wterrirent with Mr. r.til ze the people we 9witlt Mr. Andrews on ? again we agreed on 1 we can't reduce •any t l ans and as you know ear tt. That's why you notice tl:e• whole gist of the *.l Nd' (1any questions? ,rt fire: officer sir? icf et 'darks and he recently died 5:CD. 1'3 like to once again state that t4.:n of the Police Department tilers transferred from the Police i' pt rt.i.>.: Department which will e huli-I;ng including maintenance cx;=,:_; ,,,te1 in this new building "e t:i:i.tf will you carry on. l,s i heed carried on Federal . rel.aries, four crime analysis about i'.e. years. This was »r• dropped that position, but -_,:1rtain those positions. The 0trr Operator I, System -et positions in the T>,cra Ad been carried by grants 1,:mm.:x,i ations Operators which t t h and moving into the new build- .i.t;t Litt- total personnet or what SEP2 191 kihd of an ttnp::ct the technology will have. So, we tfy to stbbilite it with the support petsonnei and then hopefully by the end of heat year we'll have Mote Of ah Idea of what kind of an impact tnoving ihto the building foul have. Se these ate basically positions that's been requested. Pat-t of the increase hoe been betsuae of the high utility coat. Because of high oVefhead oh office suppiiteai toy bthet thinga totttibuted to the differences in thie year's budget Mid last yeat's, beaidea the personnel, Mt. Andrewsi I should point nut that a significant increase is also iheluded ifi theif budget fot the norhal metit adjustrents that are trade it misty. Theft le apptoxirately one-half million dollars thtoughout this entire budget fot employee adjusttheitt of salaties as fat as their merit ihcteases ate concerned (annual incteases). Mt. Pluhmier: Well that's ttue it every department: 11r. Andrews: Yes. I said throughout this entite budget lt's applicable, but because the Police and Fire ate the two latgest operations corptising about thitty million dollars, without any overhead cost adding to it of sixty million. You can ittthediately see that that half of the total city budget in the general operation of the city that is allocated to just those two departments so they have the major amount of the employee merit cost. Mayot Ferre: Chief ate you satisfied with this hudget(you know what I mean). nobody of course is ever satisfied, but I mean do you think this is a reasonable budget and that you think you can live... Chief Watkins: Considering the economy and the tax base. I think the Police Departthent was considered vety favorably and I realize this was a benefit of some other departments perhaps losing some funding and I hope ... I think they do understand the need we have for it. Se, I am grateful that we did come up with what I think we can maintain the same efficiency next year as we had this last year. Mr. Plummer: Let me ask this question. Mr. Andrews. are you still looking at what you were last yoar that the increase and cost of moving into the new building will not exceed a half -million dollars a year? Mr. Andrews: I believe se, yes. Mr. Plummer: You still feel that's realistic? Mr. Andrews: Yes. Mr. Plummer: All right. Garland let me ask you this question? It has been expressed to me and 1 just want you to speak to it and give me your opinion of why that you did not propose any increase in the Identification Bureau? Chief Watkins: We had the feeling and we didn't have it completely finalized but we did do an inspection and it was just completed a few weeks ago and the inspection indicated that there was considerable time that although it might have been utilized we weren't really able to account for it. So I feel at this time it would be much better to proceed with what we had than to assume that we needed more positions. 1 don't really believe they were justified. We didn't have the inspection earlier to base that on, but we based that on some other things. I - - that we might have to set some priorities. We may have to some scenes that are found not to be productive that we might have to eliminate the processing of some scenes. Now the could happen. But I think you are going to find most agencies are doing this already. And if you process 100 or 1000 scenes^and you only come up with five - - - - on it efficency wise we shouldn't be processing them. Because we have to somewhere go into a business angle and figure that into the... what it does cost per - - - So, I'm satisfied that we have enough to maintain next year. Mr. Plummer: The next question that I have is how many PSA's do you have at the present time? Chief Watkins: I believe there's sixty, unless I'm mistaken. Mr. Plummer: I thought there was near seventy. Ok, using the figure of sixty if that be the case and I don't know of any one program that I think has been more beneficial than that particular program of relieving the officers of more street time. My question would be both to you and to the Manager for these people are not supposed under any circumstances to be put into a dangerous situation and they basically are doing nothing but writing reports. Why are we riding two of those to a car, rather than giving more latitude to having one to a car ? I don't see the safety in numbers, why is it that we are riding two to a car instead of putting out double the number, you understand my question? Chief Watkins: Yes and I don't have a complete answer. The initial was perhaps a reinforce- ment or perhaps the tendency to lean over to make sure that we don't have something to happen 3'7 UP 2 117.5. we havc oat. pn oot Foe , Th. dro sac!, things as transportation which would mine havernroi the impa, na, Lnd wns the original A ssump t ion when they were put out., i'll trine to :.:nk11rilmkowski If ho's had NDY updnte on it, 1 wall more 1 ma I I imr et th it S4.1' 4 1 ,i .i;i 1.11:+t was the basis for it then is tho relotorcerent thm( rid whold ii.(ve with rhr olhor ns well as the potential. tn request For oolp or to haollo the sithmtion. Chief K I imkowsk ! One +.1 t fir , i', aLk t rnup.por I ntl on and the second and Mote Jr/portant rt•at.on 1 ,.ven !,,•uLh the r,r"r,t n'n in (.0 ance for a year in reality those people hare :Jt he( a an !ho rt-recr a yirnar. So they're reinforcing each other and learolot, from vd.71, oihor. Nrw there al P several mt oat., where we have ttied one man ocernt ion in crif 1 !, r•nci rim ival iltvestiiot ion i nwhOTC the PSA's have been used. 1 'm g you' : mYordi 1 ir: o!,sori. 1 hope t11. eot i Ci ty Commission is because a few months this rio7711) Is,vn to )P flIled by the City of Miatni. Mr. Plummer: 1 don ' t t happy bot Chief Kl imkowsk : Wn. i 1 we ' re r d t dnk t or s y A L PHMMer We 1 I n.:•:.• •:a i an: t4., ••, i`,4" . `," ,47 r L4.11 think item Ch if t !; y. • • d.:1, d 1 ' Chief i : •••. •!! , !•!....trnIno n!. ....I et o; 7C, the program will have t, Mr. Andtows: •n.! tn-. Mr. Piummerf .; t t:t. ask ono zn..to •,u-, • •: wc 0. been n • ;!... - that t ho: t .•• :tse• this morning I. • • , .ir t pi-0gram. : •,. LH, CM. '44 people that 1(as any thought , • 1.71 :it ,,ho budget In the event o- t..• put personnel and • todt. has boon addressed in r:n1 recrui tment. Mr. i ,(um.ior: •• . ; t .(1,1 I know without question thm* t o..tInt. n, • . , ' : : • . - .' , • , ., nt, t to. ,,,rret t . I don' t tt.1(11- Anvb.,•!.. 4 14 . '1 ".i - r " : t' il,1t, overcome this prc•t)lt:nn r r ,i,..i • t t '' • . • ' • •• t : r . ,. • ,s', i ' 1, ur.it •..f are people in tie-. no..pat tan =it . 4 "4,' 4 " , ".41'; ' ' ",."1.,- * . ' .;.:r. .1 -;4'+ that this was g.dinit to .:,,, no'4 ,,,,I.: :., n; ,.. , ,,-, .- . :: ....,i... .ott r.•tl quick like that that to, not *in,. ,,, ( . .,.. , , n . • , *n ..A, ,t h.,. tho ,idr.inistrntion or the thief 1.n.n. :.: (.'1,..--, ; . n. ' *7.•n -...1,, i , t-o, (ino. tn, the department to try and lielp • '',. - ,..11..*- -.to l• Mr. AtiJrewn: I; ! , r r•,••;', r i • t 11A' 'A r1 r him t 0 answer... Mr . Plummer : il iron; Mr. Andrews: .11 te td..* ro ho had hoped that he could achieve additionn.1 pers.-none L Ino n•troet 7ii7 yand it -1!.. wasn't possible to accomplish that at this time. And lc. did set ill( -.t.r1,•i it ter: tor tho.‘, needs in the department and not that this tsn' t twcy.1 `7 t144,441 the I Mr 1 WW1 I . t'1 ; - Li" '4. T10 F.; 1.1 till!, het e now. That 's where we start with t hi • qi 1 ...old Onto., 7 -no-4 hr.w •ino of tho•.:4.: well. How many more people Mr. Anti Yews: 1 • t r • :L.': ••-•. Mr. 1'1inttm,-1: 'n•nn -1 c war!. nnn:: a; Can- an ridditiona) 30? Mr. t Mr. Plummer: ! 7 , T •t• I igure, because I'm going to von somet rcr., t man -:•t:ttr..•trl,•: 10 more personnel. I think it behooves mt,tri!-F f t. 111e, aose that's what we are here for as rn prioitY ntt,'• LI My prto,ity getting hia. additional personnnel is more l'.:npor7.410 ,,.hcr "- 1 nits in this budget, but if I don't have the iL I tipiVing. NOW, don't know It that t con there. t, UR.2 *FA Fathef Gibt;on: I want to puttee that reason a little. You kndv, I get distutl,ed wheel we go to court acid the court Says cettaifi things. Ohe thing I'm leatttit%g 1 dottyt like coutt, but coutt teaches you and till to Thodetate And thetgihate but activitys It istt4t always what I want, but 1 find that the court is ohe of the most orderly ptocp8aeb 66 well as it takes you Mote time to accotttpliah What the court asks or teCOM lend§ bt decree 's that you do than any other way and ittthe long tun the less paihfui, the least paitt= ful. I said all of that to say his, you know I don't uhdetstand whets you got a touts order and this says that you ought to increase that Minority percentage And you know I'ftf talking about Meek. feet not talking about tatimi4 1 talking about MAACK) they Weft the people who vent to court and 1 wotidet as you''te adopting this budget ate you really, ate you tealiy,(you khow),keeping ih 9tihd what the coutt saids Jessie M&Ctafy acid those that's been here; you knout and all that, and all that... theh now here all that other stuff, tab, ... Chief ;we mete talking this nothing about the reality slid you know I just wohdet ate we being tealiatic? You ate if I hear tight those 40 people you`re talk= ing about .;. Mt. 1'lutmner: Don't let Sachs go away from here that I had 40. I'ii just saying I Want a pet cost tan. Father Gibson: No, no. I'm talking about in the budget we're getting 40 new people, Mr. Plummer: Forty-four(44). Fathet Gibson: Forty-four(44). And you know those 44 folk aren't dealing with that court otdet. Is it? Tell me, tell me. Mr. Plummer: No, they're not police personnel, are they Garland? Mr. Watkins: No, none of these would be swotn personnel. Father Gibson: A1.1 right. The court said -Mr. Lloyd this is where you get on the pan," the court said to us I want a percentage, didn't it? Mr. Lloyd: Well the court has given several years In order to arrive at these... Father Gibson: Yea, right. But you know one thing f you don't start this year you woh't have it next year. J.L. Plummer has been saying to us on this Commission at the end of three years I want to know if we're going to fulfill the mandate of the court. Now, we are not fooling anybody. If I were involved in that lawsuit I'd be back to the judge today. Because you know what you're making up a budget and you haven't put one single person in that number. Isn't that right counselor? I think you ought to keep us on the ball now, You know what the court is like. Mr. Andrews: Can I try to assist you Father Gibson? Father Gibson: Please sir, please ease my passion. Mr. Andrews: All right I don't quite understand what it is youare trying to achieve Father Gibson: Ok. My Bishop swears that of all the Blacks he knows that nobody has to speak for me. Mr. Andrews when you went to court Jessie McCrary and those Black officers said they did not have a fair shake. The court said to you(you increase the police force) that's what I'm talking about. Mr. Andrews: They didn't say it quite that way. Father Gibson: Well let ma say thls; it may not have hOon said just that way. but 1 be doggone if it. didn't add up to that. Mayor Ferre: Well, look, the crux of what he's talking about is the compliance with the court order and recently with the discussions with the Justice Department in the increase of minority and he's talking specifically of Black personnel in the Police Department. Now, we know that the number of retirements on the Police Department for one reason or another, have been decreased and you and I know that back in June when I had heard that the class for July would only be four people, remember we had that conversation and subsequently you increased it first to ten, then to seventeen and I understand it's up to twenty-four, ok? The reason why it was only four in the beginning was that there weren't going to be that many opening available as I recall and then there were and that we went back and forth on this thing. And as it ended up it was something like 16 non -minorities and I forget what -- 14 minorities or something like that for the class, I forget what the total was, but the point that I think that J.L. Plummer and Father Gibson are talking about is that if you increase the number of police. I think it simplifies this whole process. 39 SEP 2 1975 Mr. Plummer: li wheat I'u: ta]n tnday Mr. Mayor is :-c,rter:.t that 70i, of the register waiting to get into the acradcmy is in fact minorities and you open(let's just use for hypothetically 24 new pe,ritions) If we create 24 new positions, 701 of those 24 are r<.tneoleabi•; fining to ben of the minority. but if you don't open the positions then there's, no chance. Now, vtata know until it really hit home and l saw Bobby Pau1k's tigurce!, that what. I sow to th paper And 1 don't hold that as gospel, but I think !lobby ruttier a statement the.r. woctld have to 480 members of the Police Department one way or another be gone if we're to comply with that order. Now, there is just no way that we ara going, to yin away with :+80 people of that department.. But 1 think one or f.ht' ways that we cart help it is to increase the rttmber of men in the department and 1 tell you right now I think two a month is n reasonable figure. (Garland you sit down I don't want you involved to this, in a way 1 guess I'm trying to help you). But 24 more men Mr. Andrews tells me that a man represents approximately S20,000.00 a year and I'll tell you for one I'm willini, right now t,, start trying to find that 480 thousand dollars to put there 24 more men in that department Mrs. Gordon: 'Lay i male a point 1 wanted to make before and we've gone beyond that subject a little hit, but it's-.ti1i relates to what Mr, tl:imrter and Father are saying? 1 had the: pittserr of tho during the et du,,tlen e:tcerlse for the Public Service Aids last week nett I found out rntt• thing- about that Public Service, Aid's Program that I liked very mach ,and that w. . that_ it enJecrintted ynung pt'oph nn.t s;;tve them a field for police t work and lost l tt hoy'd .. t as r But :as 1 un.d'trrs.tand it when' they reach the age of 21 that' i t , t ito arc,:1 . t t nt r In tee Ptthlir Service Aid's Program un- less they s., into the at,eb-ae:an become. er' it r r.. Now, ras I understand it for same reason =.'r aan ,t to r the% •. ; r ? tilt at :tern:. Now can you speak to that? Chief Watkins; I i' week and they are ..,t ,.e•d +e,:; to he adire ,fart: . this • _yt belie+:r `f ereoah scr. the ten it ..t e t'i— t 1 they . now and the -1 budget. ;fry. :nc;a,a1 t` Chief teat: n,•tier t.Oti w <tt had happened. l met with the group last tot zondorn and t•ometling is going to have re- emnendeu in nett year's budget. But I ss;e:ala!itl,r , police officer and nut of tlir o t. rants _ i ' in'at. i.'n. Now, this poses ; r=i rase the test, Olet'.st to start with when itl•1. tt. i.:_r, rt be ironed out between bug.' ever raced now and next year's t they 'r,', .as,. what test was that? 'x. tat Art , na, the .lie at was devised by than Mrs. ::,,s.i ,;: t ,n i _,, at z,= and a.,;.:z t:> I;gear ktaat yen are saying to sue+. M.e, 1;,. 1 bring said right now isn't nearly as in,igma:., _ ,,. y t,ia tens. I a question and the question was answered although 1 kttt •n t tart .hezhe It ' e , Yhe -,nest ion was when n Public Service Aid reaches the •t . ,,f he .an no it. n t r t.t,nt.ini e as a Pubic Service Aid, he must then enter the rt,::;;,r p,• i .� sert•1;,. in tar'r tb do that he .atatt pass an examination. And out t+f ton, six felled Oh- t.xaminata eh is that correct:, e;hief' tries 'wt,atkin l we, of:r.c r "i, :=r ..rr, i d :;.'1 rerte:nh.:r the exact figure. Mrs. Gordon: i+ut there was a k;c.:+d ptr.:entage 01 failure, more failures than passing. 1 irked a question what s ratsiaeer tens :Jid they have to take that they couldn't pass after they tTpen ail ,,1. rtti time and under-,taandiug and learning,thet• police force. Some of them like it real weit and .rant to star in that. And T was Just told (Chief, say it loud and eiT ar. what examinations did they fail? Chief Watkins: .l'his WrIS tto- ex.tu;i.nation (entrance ex.aminatlen) that was constructed by the Unlvt•rsit.t .,f Chieagu. Mrs. Gordon: .. -t the Lnivt:rr;it;: of Chicago is our consultants supposedly to have devised an examination that have been beneficial for our recruitment program and on the eonttr,ry apparently it it -ea the reverse affect. 1. wonder whether we need to take a look nt that oxuminati +e. ma . don't rrean myself particularly, I mean those of expertise and see where the, failures .ore ..aid w'at1,t-,'re tailing. Some ni these young people are passim anti p.t.1: ,; into 1.1t: tro and ,,ttt.•r pulite ervices. We're giving them the training, we're , 1' inns thee the tit•lai ter !;ekes wttrl i.v., of theta are the minority people we're trying to ref rut t . . t. have the ,arse !snot tt rt:eirtat,e cf passing persons in the Tri-cultural program and bete al,ain there i-; the -act reason 1 believe Far the high percentage of failure. ?ltiacsttgia it's ;act r'ac:15 IP.Idget item, it's an item that's related to the budget anti y'r . Andre:., 1 .. 'ta t;, , !eat e 10:41 into that examination as I have been led to understand it i; :.i tie ,led of .oira;ti.'n that would bring in the numbers of persons we're lot, tots, t , bring ie. It':, more of a psyc olo'hical testing procedureratherthan the kind• a ., t • 1.: 0,1;ff, t s neat: ed to sty if a peen .n knows police work. Now, 1 40 SEP 2 1975 speak as a total lnyman. Never having any experience whatsoever with examinations for police wotk, Chief, at 1 speaking anything that has ahy truth as far as you undetttand it? Chief Watkins: Well, 1 don t want to Mrs. Gordon: Take n side oh the issue, nk. Chief Watkins: To the value of it, , because 1 understand it's to be validated and the results of the validation certaihly could be checked, but ,..� Mts. Gordon I would rather that the examination be rechecked to see whethet of not that examination is pertinent to the kind of examination that's needed to bring people into the police force. Father Gibson: Well let the ask it another way, lir. Andrews? How related to wotk of the job is the training? You see what we learn in the ministry it that the only way to preach is to preach and to pastor is to pastor. Now-- and then when you give the exams the exam is based on preaching, not necessatily the examination, they give it two ways, we say man the only way you can preach is that you got to get up there and talky you know say it. Then there is another way you can write part of it. You khow get it otganized. And pasturing, in that church and preaching in that church. tf I hear what you say, then t'fh saying that the two don't tango and what we ate doing is wasting money and time. Does it make sense to you Mr. Andrews? Mr. Andrews: I understand what you ate getting at and I don't have the kited of information to really respond to your concern. The area that we probably should be careful about and exatnine even with greater care is if we go about adjusting examinations to fit the candidate so they pass the standards of the exams. Mayor Ferre: Nobody is recommending that. Mrs. Gordon: We're not telling you to do that: Mr. Andrews: I'm not saying anybody is doing that Mr. Mayor. I'm saying what we have to be careful about so that we don't inadvertently do that in reviewing the examinations to make sure that the examinations are valid to what they're expected to be doing when they become a police officer. Mrs. Gordon: We think maybe they're not. Mr. Andrews: That's the key of this whole matter. Father Gibson: Let me say this. If a man is taking training and if he cant pass the necessary exam how in the name of God those who don't take it will pass? What we are saying is the examination that is being given evidently based on the statistics quoted has nothing to do with the performance of the job, that's what we are saying. And Mr. Andrews that's what we have to be concerned about. That's where the hangup is, here you are you're even taking these people through say a dry run. You're walking them through and then you say to them look man, say take the exam and then 60% of those people can't pass, when man I have two or three degrees and you know what we would'say? I'll tell you what we say on the theological board for the whole Episcopal Church - something's wrong with the system and we had better change the curriculum and change the examination. Mrs. Gordon: Chief could you tell me if you have the information of your 60 Public Service Aid's , how many are approaching the 21 year old age level? Chief Watkins: I don't have the figures. Mrs. Gordon: Do you know Chief Klimkowski, because you were involved in that? Chief Klimkowski: A rough guess within a year. Mrs. Gordon: Within a year, half of them. So there is a chance to save half of them if we work quickly enough to find out where the trouble is, because if those half want to stay in police work, let's keep them in the city that trained them, rather than in the County or some other place. Lt. Ken Harrison: Fraternal Order of Police. What I'm hearing here is an effort as I interpret this to again go through some type of lowering the standards. Mrs. Gordon: No sir. Lt. Ken Harrison: Now let me ask you Mrs. Gordon if somebody is doing a part of a job 41 do you expect them when tested to do the whole Job,do you expect them to pans that ekafn? The Pak's are only doing part of police work. And Father how many denominat- ions arc there in religions in this country? You say it's ail the same sit{ I diffet with you greatly oh that. if it was sit T wouldn't have the freedom of choite to go to whatever church 1 wanted to heat that preacher different things at different tithes. Now what you are saying het sit is and Mrs. Gotdottyou're saving is these people are in A fringe area that's related to law enforcement. They take an exam and you expect theta+ to pass just because they do part of our jobs. Those people don't do anywhete neat what I do as a police officer in the street. Mrs. Gordon: I don't expect them . Lt. Ken Harrison: Eut you want to change an exam. Mrs. Gordont No, I want ynu to examine the exam. I'm not that professional. Lt. Ken Harrison: We have a program right now, the University of Chicago has been to validate and to mak:c an evaluationcit exaa;s. They're in the process of doing that and now all of a sudden you want to harry this processUP and de it. That's exactly why we have problems because we are constantly chasing out tail rather than making valid evaluations and defending from that point. And this Commission is doing it again, Father Gibson: Ok 1 Mint to rrspend, Lt. Ken Harris nt Yes sir. Father Gibson: :co way in hell for a fell•:=. who is trained in a Baptist school to pass in Episcopal rxaminatinn. it. Ken Harrlson: f rest my Father Gipson: Wait a-Jn:+te, no, no... you didn't hear me! You didn't hear me: Listen to this T +.:ant i ,> note that these, people are the p etTle who made the exam and are train- ing, that's all. Listen the I pci.,t didn't make that exam. The Police Department and the people with the you know that other =:,utfit In Chicago was supposed to be experts made the exam. Ok, let me tell you anothet thing. A1., I'm saying is you know if we had made +n effort twenty-five years :+.;o lieutenant if .cu had started twenty-five years ago to do what y?u are coins; today n,•:he we wouldn't he quite as far behind. See don't let's Lt. Ken 1arriso;t: :ill right. 1 nare with that. Father Gibson: You know this is v5, you know what I mean and all I'm saying is Iwant this city to get about the business of doing what it ought to do and let me tell you this 1 happen to be a stickler for performance, for quality work, all of that, ok? But I want to tell you this something is wrong when you are doing the training. Now note that we are not asking that these trainees be = di: policemen. Don't get those confused. We're saying that they can't pass the entrance ex::m, they don't approximate it that's a diff- erent story. In other words the training introduces them to police work. Lt. Ken Harrison: Sir I don't think you understand the PSA concept. I don't think either of you do. Mrs. Gordon: Wait a minute, let me ask for my own self, I'll tell you what I understand. I understand that if a young fellow is accepted as a Public Service Aid he should have passed somethlne at that point before he begans to determine if he could pass that second examination. Why waste the time, you follow me, that's the point I'm trying to make. Mayor Ferre: I'm going to take the prerogative of the chair. I want to get into this. We're in the midst of trying to pass a budget . Just Listen to me for a moment. I know that people can get emotional about some of these things and I happen to nee that both ( I see arguments from both sides) that make sense, ok? -I think sometimes what happens is that people get upset about things they think they're hearing and they don't listen completely to what the intention of what's being said. I get your point and your point 1 think is a valid point thata public Service Aid does not do police work, he does part of the policy work and therefore before he becomes a policemen. We've got to make sure that he has ail of the qualifications to he a police^c•n, ok, I heard what you*said, I understand I a:.:ept the premise. I don't think that in anyway that goes against what Father tiibson :or Rose Gordon is saying. What they were saying is this, that if the City of Miami is going to go through the effort and the expense and take the time to take a young person and train them to be a Public Service Aid that we ought to make sure that those persons have the ability eventually to become policemen or policewomen. Now and if they don't have that ability, if we're pretty certain that they can't make a good policemen or a policemen or a policewoman then why hire them as public service aids? 2 1` 4 Mrs. Gordon: Right. 'that's my point. Chief Watkins: Maybe I can clarity this to n sfnall degree. Sitnilar tb chit; is because we are in a state of change they took the old entrance examination And p*ghed that since that time there was a reviped entrance examination. Mrs. Cordon's point la well taken. It was the subject of a discussion between Mr. Paredes and the 'hriCultural people, their. Advisory board and the Police bepettMent seeing if we couldn't Addt'eas this doing the upcothing....Ii their program is refunded this will change our tetruitthentis efforts. Because we want to bring the PSA's into that --- of the department. Mayor l:erre: 1 just want to add my voice to that of Rose Gordon and father Gibsoti, that the Public Service Aid should teally be an entrance. a stepping stone, a doot opener fot out youths to come into police work and I completely subscribe to that. Now, Kenny that in no way means replies and let'sgif straight right away that anybody here is proposing the lowering of standards. I don't think anybody, anybody fot any reason on this CoMMittsion ever wants to see standards of the Police Department lowered in any way that le significant now you know and I'm not going to get into the argument of whether a man has to clithb an 8 foot wall or a 5 foot 8 inch wall or Whether the solidets that went to Vietttam were able to climb a 5 ft. 8 in, and that was good enough. Whether it's hard enough for police work or whether Metro has a lower requirement or not4 who knows, 1'tn not going to get into that kind of an argument, but the point is we're not talking about that kind of standardsibes cause these things ate flexible.You yourself have told me that some of these things are subject to question. Some are4 some you think are absolutely essential. We're hot talking about that. We're nut talking about the swinuning test or the wall climbing test or any— thing else. We're talking now very, very simply limited to the simple premise of public service aids and the tact that we ought to really try to get all those kids that are involved In that to heroine policemen .and policewomen. Mrs. Gordon: Right and that if any screening is done and eliminations ate done they be done before that. so they're not through that program and then dtop. Make the initial testing such that if they can pass that and they do it, they know they can make a career of police work if they want to continue. Mayor Ferre: And the other thing that was said here as 1 understood it is we don't want to go to the taxpayers expense of training police personnel and then letting Metropolitan Dade County put them on as policemen you know, I mean if we're going to the trouble and we're getting their interest and if we get them into the system then let's keep them for us. Chief Watkins: 1 subscribe to that. 100. I hope that's the way we're going. Mr. Plummer: Can 1 get hack to my point? Mayor Terre: Rose are you satisfied? Ok. Mrs: Gordon: Ken if I'm understood I'm satisfied. Lt. Ken Harrison: If what you are talking about is coordinating the teat. Mrs. Gordon: Yea, that's exactly the wording. Lt. Ken Harrison: Increase the probability of the PSA ... Mrs. Gordon: Beginning and the end, yea. That's what I'm talking about. Sorry it took so long to make it clear. Mayor Ferre: Let's come back to the main stream now . Mr. Plummer: Chief Mr. Andrews tells me that they do not have the papers that you originally surrendered to them. Is it possible that you can tell me what you requested to hrins'vou up to full strength how many additional sworn personnel? Chic. Watkins: Commissioner we could get into a long discussion on what's full strength t think every department could say we could use 100 more people . Mayor t'erre: What's not what he's asking you. Chic. Watkins: Well repeat it then maybe I read you wrong. Mr. Plummer: My question is that you originally proposed proposed a budget to the Manager which asked for additional personnel. There was a request which. the Manager said that they sent back to you. Now, what 1 would like to know is what was the number in that original request, was it fifty men, was it ten men and women, how many additional personnel did you feel at the time were needed? That's what I'm trying to derive at that 43 SEP 2 1975 figure. Chin" Watkins: 1 don't wnnt to give you a wrong figure. I don't remember 'exactly. It want fifty but it was more than ten: I can get the information and have it to you this afternoon if it's important: Mayor Verte: Well why don't you do that because I think that's going to he a Very impottnnt patt. Mr. Plummer: I think It's very iinportant if thin Corniission is going to try to cteate new vacancies for your- department we've got to get the funding from somewhere e18e. Chief Watkins: I'll have the information within a few minutes I promise. Mayot Ferret Are there any other quesions of the Chief so that he cap go get that information. Mr. Plummer: And don't say you'll get it this afternoon this is this afternoon. Mayot Ferret Arc there ;any ether questions of the Chief so that he can go get that information. Are there any other questions at this time from the Chief? Al] tight, now ate there other department headia that the Commission wishes would come up for discussion purposes? Father Gibson: May I ask a questions I want to make sure again Mr. Ferencik unlike sotne other governmental entities. The City of Miami has a reputation which I cherish and whenever ;.,you can justify in this city - start a building today and say tomorrow or the next day nn inspector will be there at 9:00 o'clock to inspect a footing of ---- I hope sir, I want this assurance that we are not reducing that level of perfor— mance, do you know what. I'm talking about? Mr. Ferencik: Yes sir. Father Gibson: to other words 1 don't want them to have to wait until next week to get that footing inspected over against Petting It inspected today, you know what I mean? Mr. Ferencik: Well Reverend Gibson as you are aware and the rest of the Commission, I'm sure that the dollar evaluation building in this community and a matter of fact the whole United States is off considerably. This has (and I'm going to get around to answering your question, I'm not avoiding it),. This has created a whole different set of circum— stances that our deparrnu nt deals with in relationship to these day to day inspections. Many, many peoptc are taking ndvantgie of this period to do all kinds of work on buildings, their own home, and buildings whore there is plenty of contracting personnel available, plenty of people ready to work and we're issuing more permits than we normally issue, but the evaluation of the work that's done under the terms of these permits is relatively small compared to new construction. We have re -organized in the department. We have cut a number of people out of the ---no people have ]oat their joba, but we have not filled positions. We will be able to supply adequate service during the next budget year as long as you leave us with the omderstandig with the Manager that if this building thing in, creases tremendously in terms of permit:., he will then come back and we can adjust our personnel level. Father Gibson: beautiful. Mr. Plummer: Mr. Mayor as I do at every budget hearing with the exception of the Fire Chief who has already my his own testimony. I asked each and every department head-- this is the time.., Mayor Ferre: Now, wait a minute J.L. if you'll please let me follow the format I fully intend to open the microphones to any department head in a moment, but I first want -- the format I'm trying to follow is to ask any of the Commissioners did they want to ask any questions of any department heads, then I'm going to open up the microphones and you can make that statement over again? Father Gibson: A11 right, I want to raise one other question. Where is the man over Sanitation? Charlie Jones? Father Gibson: A11 right sir, I'd like to talk with you. I'm a little disturbed•that you're going to get a reduction, you know in number of people. I just want to make sure for the record, ok. I hope the reduction does not mean we are going to get a lot of excuses for the garbage and all that business that maybe found around on the streets of the City of Miami. SEP 2 1975 M. Jones: We11, t think 1 heater speak on that. Father Gibson: Please. Mt. .Ionest Lcl me explain the budget cute that were made in the Department of Sanitation this year. After 1 had aubtnitted my budget I was instructed by the City Marmot's Office that 1 should look fora 10Z cut on the hnlnnce of the budget. As there went• most of the other departments. the only pesslhlc way that 1 rnuld accomplish this was by eliminating our stand-by labor that if: the only way without really hurting our services to any degree. Also, ie order to make-up this large amount of money it was necessary for me to recotntnend the elimihation of garbage on all Holidays. When I proposed this after it was decided by the Manager Office that 1 should go ahead with this and I proposed to the working force in the department this was opposed to some degree and we sat down at the bargaining table and negotiated for the use Of 25 stand-by laborers only.In past years we had averaged approximately 70 a day and we are cutting this down to 25. This meting that whenever there ate vacations and men laying off for illness and other teasons(othet absences) that our crews must work with four men instead of five men crews to collect the garbage. Like I say this was negotiated andaccepted: by the Sanitation EmployeeiAssociation so fat we've been able to pick"up the garbage twice a week and to collect the rubbish on a once a week basis with the use of twenty stand-by laboters However, there are grumblings in the work force still because we are on occasions requiring theta to work with less men than they had in the past. This can be accomplished and it is being accomplished right now. however, I know that. the Employee Association is here today and they intend to bring this up again, but I feel that our crews. work on an Incentive basis and that occasionally when they do have to work with one leas man they can accomplish the job without putting a real undue burden on them. Father Gibson: Well, let me sure I understand you see I don't know the Employees Association I don't know who they are, nobody has talked with an, but I'm asking you same thing 1 asked Mr. Ferencik. I ask you the same thing I asked the Chief of Police, I asked you the same thing I asked the Chief of the Fite Department. You know, we don't have a whale of a lot in this day and time to sell the people but the thing that justifies us is that we have Sanitation. We have a Police Department. I don't care what they say I think our Police Department is not as bad as a lot of people would like to have it(you know would like to have us believe). We have an excellent Fire Department and I hope soon that we - - - - - soon is going to say excellent Police Department. I hope we will be able to say an excellent Sanitation Department. Again, I hope that the reduction in this budget for that does not mean a reduction in the service nora reduction in the proficiency. Now just as sure as you tell me yes; is that what you're telling me, yes? 1 want you to say yes. Mr, Jones: I'm telling you that up to now. -we've been doing this for a few months now,— that it has worked out: we've been able to keep providing the same service that we did. Father Gibson: l.et me warn you now the record is replete now that you said yes, ok? I'm going to be very, very meticulous and I'm going to especially look over the Black area. t want to make sure and put that in . I want the record to reflect that to see whether or not this city is being kept clean. You know, because I happen to know when the heat is on and the shoes get pinching --you know. You know what I'm driving at or don't you? Mr. Jones: Yes. 1 understand what you are driving at . Father Gibson: Ok, beautiful. Mr. Jones: 1 would like to say that naturally you're going to be able to do a better job when you have more men. What I am saying is that an adequate job can be done with the work force that we now have withthese cuts. If a man willcontinue to work as they have these past few months. Father Gibson: Ok then you're telling me then the other thing needs to be said,either you. f-.'Sh or cut bait. Tell him what I mean J.L. Mr. Plummer: What he means Charlie is you haven't lived in Florida a long time. This is your cut bait;either you are going to do it or get out. Father Gibson: No, I mean that if those men are not going to work. See Mr. Andrews let me tell you something you're not hearing. Those men are responsible to carry out their assignment now if they're not going to carry it out you know, it's a simple thing now let's assume that he is not being unreasonable. I want this public to hear what I'm saying and you're the representative from the union,ok I want you to hear, because if you don't think you could keep the level of sanitation collection at a certain point at all times, what 1 hope you will do for us the Commission, do for me you see Maurice is going SEP 2 1975 to get his. Because you know he has a private thing, plus you know downtown. is going to get his and Reboso aint no question Reboso is going to get his, but you see I's the one who nint going to get but very little and I'm going to be back up hete raising hell the day it happeni,and I want the tecotd to reflect that because if you don't have --= if you 'can't do it the thing to do is tell the five of us so we tould understand. t, Jones: l think I've been put ih a position that's kind of awkward . I've been asked by the Mannget to make cuts in the department and I made -this Was a coitsidet- able amount of money. It amounted to 7 of 800 thousand dotlats. Now whehevet you're making that substantial of cut it's very difficult and I made the best possible tuts that I could that would leastaffect the services and that's all I tan say. Mt, Plummer: No, that isn't what he's saying Chatlie. What he's saying is you better makeit known and make it daton well known tight now. Mt: Jones': I can't guarantee you we won't miss your garbage once In a while, Mt. Plummer: He's telling you if you do you're in trouble. Now, that's what I think I understand you''re saying. When you get finished with that I watt to ask you a question. Mayor Ferte: You couldn't have been more explicit with the Ring's English of any othet kind of English. Mr. Jones: I think I better have a few more stand-bys then: Mt. Plummet: That's the point he's making. Mayor Ferte: Now wait a moment now you were going to answer. Now, is that your answer. What in effect you're saying as I hear you is that if you were asked to reduce 700 thouaand dollars and you've done it in complied but you can't guarantee that this service is going to be maintained, that's kind of a wishy-washy statement.naw you better say one way or the other. Mr. Jones: But you've got to understand the way our department operates. We have injuries for instance, and I don't know haw many people will get injured. Mayor Ferre: That's exactly what budget time is all about is for you to explain to us how your department does operate, so if you need to clarify or if you need to justify but don't come telling us that the Manager told you to do it and you complied and we're putting you in a spot. You're damn right we're putting you on the spot. That's what budget Lime is all about, Now, if you don't want to be on the spot, well that's between you and the Manager. Right now this is the only time during the year that you and I and this Commission can talk face to face and we can ask you a directquestion right here in the open and you tell it like it is and if you don't want to tell it like it is that's fine that's your responsibility, that's your job and I'm not questioning your integrity, don't misunderstand. I think what's being questioned here is the legality of the situation, whether it's your reality or the Manager's is something else, but I think Father Gibson is asking a specific question and I think he's entitled to a specific answer. Now, I didn't hear a specific answer from you. 1 hear an answer that said yes, but .. Now I don't know whether it's --- is it yes or is it no? Are you going to be able to maintain service yes or no? In your opinion to the best of your knowledge you certainly should knot more about it than anybody else in this room. It's your department where you maintain the service. Mr. Plummer: You know 1 don't see why it's so difficult Charlie, I really don't. Mr. Jones I'll tell you the reason because I'm in the middle here. Mr. Andrews: He's caught in the middle of the situtation. Let me tell you what's happening. You bring a department head before you, you ask him questions with labor sitting on one side of the room and you put the burden on him. What burden are you as the Commission putting on labor to make sure that they don't lay down anywhere, and they perform their work as they're intended to and hold their feet to the fire, because if you just hold his to it and you give them an out to come in and ask for more people, we've created a very serious problem. Father Gibson: Ok, Mr. Manager I want you to note Theodore Gibson thinks through very well what he says, the questions he asks. I said at this point they ain't going to be willing to fish or cut bait, do you what that means? If they don't perform and can't do that work, you're going to fire them, you are'nt in any popularity contest. 46 SEP2 1975 Mt: Andrews: t mks understood: 1 misunderstood cottiplettly tht direction ,.,, Father Gibson: Right, tight: you doggonc right and so I expect you to say When you speak that what he's asking Me to do Is ftnpassiblt, that the shay it is and rill tell you this if I don't get my garbage ricked up I'm going to be tight up bete and hold up the whole Commission all day, because the Mayor is going to get his, Rebosti Is going to get his, Ptutnmet is going to get his and Rose is going to get her s, I'M going to be the only guy who ain't going to be getting nothing, you understand? Ok? Mayor Fette: All tight, well we'll come back to you if you want to do it that Way: 1 understand what the Managet is saying. Mr. Ouggat: t'm the president of Snnitattntr t:ml:loyees Association: What Father Gibson said is true, Now let me explain one thing when Mt. Jones rinritied a Four'mnn'crew, . A four -man t.rew is a drlvet and three linters, a flve-man crew ♦ n duvet and four iltiPts, so when these men ate going go :iurt• he's risking another three men to pull anothet man's work and the way it is now with vacation time: or "D" time these thtt>e men going nut every day pulling Pout ten work they can't do because these Men work in rain, the job is hazardous, they're subjected to being injured on duty and they just cannot do that type of work, And all we're asking to do is during vacation time, these ten cannot even take vacation, And you're talking about a man not being able to catty his vacation civet past a certain year. These men cannot take their vacation to spend with their filthily. You got a man that has been there 20 years who takes a month and one-half vacation. Mayor Ferre: Let me ask you a question? Mr. Duggar: Yes sir, Mayor metre: You work on an incentive system. Mr. Duggar: Yes sir. Mayor Ferre: Now, everybody round here works 40-hour week or what have -you. As I under stand it and I don't want to start opening up Pandora box, but let's get right into it, As I understand it certain routes have been designated, studied and what is a 40-hour work week, what it would normally take a crew to do that route in 40-hours per week. Now, I understand that the average is down close to 20-hours, is that right? Mr. Duggar: Some are and some are not. Some work more, some don't. Mayor Ferro: The average. Mr. Jones: The average Is 25-hours. It depends on the area sir, Mayor Ferre: All right in other words, what somebody and you know, somebody is a human being goes nut and estimates and says It: taken 40-hours to pick up so many residences and what have you and this Is how lont, it will take for this route to be done during this week and the average of what that somebody estimated is off by 75-hours. In other words, what normally could be done in 40-hours is now being done in 25, now I'm not against that because in other words it somebody goes out there and works his tail off and get the job done quicker why shr'u1d he be penalized and I'm not against that, so don't misunderstand where I'm going too, ok? I'm with you. Mr. Duggar: Thank you. Mayor Ferre: Ok. I accept that,but the point that I'm trying to make is that if you're able to do the job that's supposed to be done of 40-hours in 25-hours) man it isn't all that bad. Mr. Duggar: Well, what we are saying is Mayor is that --all we're asking is for four -men to be on back of that truck to tote the garbage. We're not asking for a bunch of men to be sitting out there waiting to go to work, because we want the men to have their vacation rime to have which they're entitled too, otherwise they're going to lose it. Now, out of over 200 men they only allow one man out of each section to go on vacation and you got over 200 men, there isn't enough months in this year for those men to go on vacation and you're saying they're going to lose this. Now, we're asking for this vacation time and D time, lay off people,if a man is laying off on a route that route suffers, we agree with that, If a man doesn't want to come to work, let that crew straighten that mar, out. What we want is men to be placed on the back of these trucks during vacation time which vacation goes on all the yar and you never know when a man's going to get hurt. He may be off a month or two months or six months you don't know. Mayor Ferre: I get your point. 47 •sEP 2 1975 Mr. W, Smith: I'm the Executive Vice President of the Sanitation Employee's Assoc iatien. Our problem today consists of bodies. We ate different from any othet depattmrnt you have In the city, We have men with 25, 30 vests that requite five, and six week vacation and there's fib way we can teplate these men, You khow the Police Department can ride two in a cat when a man go oh vacation he can ride one, but When a man go on vacation in sanitation, that's one body you can't teplace. The job is hazardous, When a roan is hurt while he's Working that's anothet body you can't teplace, We use to have vacation where When a tan went on vacation you tat work a 75 and that bracket until that guy comes back off vacation now this has been eliminated with our 25 men stand by fetces now We have Spine weeks 12 men doWt i11 and you got 12 men going on vacation, The men out thete working it the tatty trying to do the job that they have to do when he get sick froth a cold or flu tltete'a tt tte to replace that man. So now he's turning around and telling the city. I'm not goittg to go out there and get wet and work all day in the rain and when I get sitk I'tn given the runaround about it, they're breathing down 'my back. t mean he's a human being, he governed by his emotions, Mayor Ferre: I Lead you, I know what you're saying. Mt. W, Smith: We need bodies and it's just as simple as that, The job can't be done without bodies. Mt. Jones: Mayor Ferre I sympathize with the menjthey do work hard, no doubt about it this is a hard hazardous job, but when you work an average of 25 hours a week and get paid for 40, I don't think it's unreasonable that on occasions when a man is off on vacation or somebody is out sick that they work short one tan. They would only re- quire a couple of hours more work a day to accomplish the work of that one man that's off. Mr. Duggar: I'd like to say one other thing. It also affects another group with the garbage/ with rubbish, now when they run too short of men they go to rubbish and they pull men off of rubbish so that cuts another area short. So they're robbing Peter to pay Paul and it's beginning to affect a man's moral and a man is only -he's governed by his moral, he's not a machine. He's going out there and do that work as long es he can see that he's got something to work for and something to work With. So they're robbing Peter to pay Paul and sooner or later it's going to catch up with them. And I'm sure Mr. Plummer after going all morning knows. Mr. Plummer: I just figured you might complete that statement .. Let me ask a question if I can, because the thing that bothers me and has bothered me' for a long time,not just to sanitation but the overall. We find ourselves giving these plus items, let's try it out see how it works, and I'm reflecting now using your department Charlie of this so-called (call -in-service). Item 5($160,000.00).. Now let me tell you something I don't know how that service is going but to me it's a plus item, it's above and beyond. Now I know that one time I called him and I'm using this as the example. And I was really amazed and I guess somewhat tickled that I had to make an appointment to have this call - in -service come by and pick up a dryer is what it was. Now, here we get into the fact that I couldn't get this service for five days(that was my appointment) pick-up garbage by appointment so I didn't know that you couldn't put it out there on the street, ok? Here comes the Sanitation Inspector saying, no, no,-- you can't put that out until the night before. Now, you know I'm not the best physical shape in the world, but I had to take that dryer put it back up off the street then when these guys came around knocking on my door at 4:30 in the morning to pick this thing up, they said ah--no we only pick it up off of the street, I said well how am I supposed to get it back out on ---- that's your problem----our's is only to pick it up off of the street, now you know what happened? Thad to call back in and wait another five days. Now all I'm saying is we find ourselves so damn many times(yea, I'm a Commissioner right I get ten day services, instead of five) no, now I'm using that purely as an example Charlie, because usually I have no problem with the Sanitation Department, but are we giving the service that we can't afford, would we be better off Paul of taking this $160,000.00 and putting it into the regular pick-up rather than trying to afford a plus item which we maybe can't afford? Address that if you will? Mr. Jones: All right. Mr. Plummer: Because it's just not in your department it's in others. 48 SEP 2 1975 Mt. .lobes: Well, 1 pettonnlly think that this 1n n good service that We ;joist begun and well accepteuit by the public, The tenMnn most of the t onpinintM that we get ate teftigefntors. stoves and other nasty lbc►ktng things flitting out oh the Mtteet fdt long periods of tfine. Now, the purpose of giving you A time to put this nut i.s and it won't be sitting but there Cot a week befote we collect it. 5n that we can [Ohre by that motning and get it off the streets. So that the :street§ will look better. and In the past we had no service for this type of item, it was illegal to Out a refrigerator out, we wete constantly funning around gibing out titketM for thin sort of thing and we provided no service which 1 thought was wtohg. Now we do have a service. When you do call -in for this service but gitl tells you exactly when tb put it out and where to put it and 1 think that we've been ptoinpt in coming al-ound on that day and picking It up, Mr. Plummet: 1 don't dispute that Charlie, all I'm saying is ate we ptoviding a §etWice that we can't afford that we need that money into the regular pick-up. Yau know, it's nice to say we got excess money, let's provide an excess service. Mr. Jones: I don't want to get into the future, but it also will fit 3h with tome future plans on collection methods that I hope to accomplish. Mr. Plummet: Ok, all tight. Mr. Duggan: Mt. Plunner, could I answer that question, please? Mt, Plumtner: Well, you can give me your idea of nn answe.t. Mr. bugger: Ok, yea, 1 mean my idea. 1 didn't mean to vay it that way, my idea. My idea you know. if you train people to have their ttesh of whatever out at n certain time then the streets will always look clean and in your case Mt. Plummet. we were sorry I don't think the guy knew that you were a Commissioner, 1 think it was just a mistake. Mr, Plummer: No, I think he did. Mr. Duggar: But this was like you were telling the Fire and the Police and like to ptevent a fire they train the people to prevent a fire, wall this is similar to what this call -in service is and the majority of the men that were driving those trucks, the majority of them are what you call -in labor. they're labors with the ttaining the B. truck drivers, so it's really an experience of training program for the city also to learn to drive the trucks and as well as providing our service. Mr. Plummer: 1 don't want to belabor I was like to that where we're operating under tighter everyday, that instead of trying to find a way to incorporate that bulk pick-up corporate that $160,000.00 into our regular talking to a philosophy really but it seems cightdollars and we are and it's getting provide a plus item, why don't we try to into our regular service where we can in- service, that's what I'm trying to say. Mr. Jones: I understand what you're saying, like I say this also fits in some future plans that 1 --in changing the pick-up. Mr. Plummer: One of the things that 1 did want to get into -- Mr. Jones: Let me say one other thing about stand-by labor. Stand-by labor has always had a jot of problems connected with it. For one thing the man that works es a stand-by labor/is not a regular employee as you well know and does not have the regular benefits that a regular employee has which I think is unfair. Number two is the unemployment compensation that caused us a great deal of trouble lately with these stand-by laborers We can't work them regularly and when we don't they can put in for the unemployment compensation and get paid and this is becoming more and more of a problem and up until we cut some of these off. Mr. Plummer: Mr. Andrews I asked you when we sat down and talked about budget I've never received an answer. Item 9, of the Revenue Sharing, the Sanitation Incinerator, I fully understand that million dollars. I asked you to please break down for me the one million seven hundred and eight thousand five hundred for contractual sanitation waste collection, 1 have not received an answer. Mr. Andrews: All of those items including your 's referring to item p9,on page 6, refer back to the city budget of the coding of which we identify as contractual services and if you werejiook at any one of those codes you'd find that there are a number of items there that we identify as contractual and that is garage, motor pool, --I opened up the police under services and the contractual code would include teletype services, lights, and power, water, reproduction services, motor pool, printing, outside special services, and rental. You go to another department ---- Sp 2 1975. Mr. Phirnnrcr: No, w0.1 lci's slick with the sanitation , that's the one at hard, Mr. Andrews: A11 tight, let me find the sanitation, I can tend the li9t off cottectly to you. What page is that on, 157? All tight. 157 would be city gatage, fnotot pool; repairs, equipment and supplies. And city gatage in itself is one trillion, one sad fifty -cane thousand, nihe nihty, motor pool is 26,114, repairs, equipthent and supplies $150.00, the total add up that should add up to the figute that's located in the budget here of one trillion seven ,zero eight, and it doesn't so there Must be inibther. location where there's mote expenditute of this sate type, what's the neict one, street cleaning? All right under street cleaning; you have a garage charge of 113 thousand Mr, Plummer: You're getting off the point, how Much of It is salary? Mr. Andrews: None, Mr. Plummer: Ok. What happens to the Sanitation Department tothorrow if t:edetal`Revenue Sharing stops based on this one million seventy being transferred? Mr-. Andrews: We would have to reappraise other areas of the budget to make Sure that Police. Fire and Sanitation which we consider the top thtee service areas to feceive the bulk of the fund or find some other sources of revenue like incteasing takes: Mrs. Gordon: Or like charging a garbage fee. Mr. Piutmner: Yea, one other final question, why is it on group insurance if you average it out each employee cost is S437.37 but in the Sanitation Department the average employee cost pet group insurance is $396.00? Mr. Andrews: I don't have an answer for you. Mr. Plummer: No, it's a forty-one dollar difference and when you base it on 672 people it's a lit of difference in dollars. Mr. Andrews: i don't have an answer for you... Mr. Plummer: Well I'm using your figure with 3,329 employees. Mr. Andrews: What page are you on? Mr. Plummer: Page 143 you show for group insurance 1 million 456 thousand dollars, you show the amount of employees as 3,329. Divide one figure by the other you get $437.00. group insurance on sanitation you shows $266.50 divide it by 672 which is the number of employees you come out with a $47.00 difference, I was wondering why. Mr. Andrews: The average shouldn't be any difference... Mr. Plummer: 'that's what i say why is there? Well if you take --is the number employees for 76 (1,329)? huh? Mr. Andrew,: I'. e li, 3,672 to be exact, irn.tcnd of '1,611 It'n 3(.12. of Mr. Plummer: +tk, 1.stand corrected 1 see where it is It l= n r•nntinuation on over. Thank you. In Mr. Andrews: Per employee the same. other words you're using the figure of $396.00 per employee. Mr. Plummer: But. where do we resolve Father's problem? Mr. Duggar: L just scant to know if we can get those other bodies to garbage and rubbish? I usedto pick up in his area and I think he one time down there. Everyltody else is going to be gotten but Father Mr. Andrews: In other words we're going to have every employee work is that what we're saying? Mayor Ferre: Sure if that's what it has to be, if there's no other alternative. Mr. Andrews: In other words, we gear this whole thing up to the point where every employee is working full 40-hours (you know and that's what we're trying to avoid) by staying on the incentive basis. Isn't that right, don't we want to stay on an incentive basis so these employees can finish their routes within the specific time if it takes some 30-hours or 32 or 28 .... get Father Gibson! corrected my crew Gibson. full 40-hours then, 5( SEP 2 1975 Mt. Jones: This is one thing that I've always pointed out to the then in the Sanitation department that if you have the ptivilegc of working on an incentive basis then when the time comes when you have to give a little bit mote then i think you should be will- ing In do it. Mayor Ferre: Well you can't have both things. Now if you want more men. J at perfectly willing to go ::long with that., but I'll tell you as fat as I'm concerned werre going to go to a 40-hour week. 4r. Jcnc: 1 don't think the answet is getting mote stand-by lnbot, I think that would be more problema(create more problems) for now and the future, Mt. Peter Joffre: SEA Secretary, I think the major ptobiem is here when a man goes out on a garbage truck you're asking to do 25% Mote when you have one man short, It's true we have an incentive plan but you keep forgetting the men goes on usually one hout before time to try to get out there before that heat, don't even take no lunch to get done. Now when you're actually short out men you're actually telling the men to work three miles from side to side, carry three more thousand pounds at least. Now it's true he might do it once in a while. How long can this man keep up? A man gets hurt he4s out oft D-doesn't get replaced you only have 25 extta men, We're talking about somewhete 300 men when only one man out of his section is allowed to go on vacation. Mayor Ferre: Well how many people are you talking about extra? Mr. Peter Joffre: We agreed to 25-extra tnen trying to work out this problem. Mayor Ferre: Well we already have 25-extra men. Mr. Peter Joffre: We find that with 25- men we cannot work it out. Mayor Ferre: That's what I'm asking you how molly do you need? Well, let's see if he has any ideas. The queCtion now is how many more people do you think vnu need? Mr. Duggar: 1 would take an estimate of about 20 more men. Mayor Ferre: There's already 25 extra, what: you need is about 24 more than that Mr. Duggar: We need about 20 more --between 20 and 25 we -- Mayor Ferre: In other words, instead of having 25 you'd want 45 people. Mr. Duggar: Right and if you'll look at the future back year ago when they were work- ing 70 and 80 men a day and that is still quite a cut Mayor. That is still quite a cut and the thing about it is you may not use all those men all the time, but the 25 men we got now with the men being off D and the men being on vacation it is really hurting us, because they're having to pull men from rubbish to drive the trucks, they have to pull men from rubbish to tote the garbage and you're cutting rubbish down, you're robbing Peter to pay Paul. Mayor Ferre: Ok. Mr. Jones: Mayor Ferre, we've been running at the most about six routes that would have to go out short. Now, I realize that there will be times when there'll be more than that but the record show that our garbage collection has been up to snuff two times a week and our rubbish has been staying on n once n week basis, collection basis. Mr. Duggar: And the reason they're staying up is because the men can't go on vacation. How are the men going to go on vacation. In other words, you shut down all the incin- erator and everything until everybody take vacation and let the garbage lay out there. Mr. Jones: One thing for sure if the SEA doesn't want to work with me on this then there is going to be difficult to make it work so that's a difficulty of the situation. Mr. Dugger: Mr. Mayor we have tried to work with them. The reason those men have been going to work every morning now is because we're telling them that they have to, to get those men to come in to work to quit laying off, the men have been coming to work bitter, they've been showing to work better you can check their records, it's in the man's office, anytime you that you want to check them records you're see that there is an improvement, that the men are coming are coming to work more often, because of this, because we have been working with him to correct these men and to try to get these guys that don't want a job that are just hanging round there just to have a job, get rid of them and get good men there and we have worked with them. SEP2 1975 Mr, Jones: I'm saying that up to now they have wotked with me but 1 Any that if they don't of course 1 can't atcotplish it. Mayot tette: He's agreeing with you what he's saying is he agrees with that the SEA has been working or he couldn't of done the job he's done. And what he's saying is (. understood it is) if you don't coopetate then obviously the job can't be done and so you're in agreement: Mtg. Gordon: Well Mt. Mayot what I'm hearing is that they're saying it can't be done, now you know it can't be done, is that what you're saying? Mayot Fetre: That's what he's saying. Mts. Gordon: That's what they'te saying it can't be done, well you can't take blood from a stone either, so.,. Mayor Ferre: And what Mt. .tones is saying is that it can be done. Mr. Andrews: It can't he done and maintaihed a 25 or 28 hour work week. Isn't that so? Mt. Jones; That's right. Mr. bugger: In orther words what you're condemning the man for getting out there and walking four tilos in five minutes or be can take all day to do it. Mt. Andrews: All I'm saying is that what you're saving that it can't be done and accomplished in the 25 or 28 working hours. Isn't that right? 1 mean that's what we're talking about. We add these extra people in we'te going to be down to about a 24hout work week. Mr. Duggar: No. The reason the City of Miami looks as clean as it does -and yne can look at the other city -is because a man has something to work for. Now if they know they gotta work 40 hours , go out there and just make the regular 40-hour week, they'll go out there and just make the day. There is a difference between a man going out there and beautifying a city thin going out there just to make a day's pay. They're not machines, they're men and if you give them something to work for they don't care how they do, all they want is a body on the hack of that truck to help them. Mayor Ferre: we!! f'tl tell you you know what this (we all know what this about) At least I think 1 know what it's about. It's about a 25-hour work weak and all I'm telling you is look fellows 'I'm with you but you can't have your cake and eat it too, now as far as I'm concerned either we go to a straight 40-hour week, forget about all this incentive stuff and then get the number of men, which frankly is what I'd lean too personally. This isn't the private sector ( in my business we can operate that way) but I don't see how ( sooner or later in the government you're going to get caught up in this thing) and as far as I'm concerned is what you ought to do is you ought to just go to straight 40-hour work week. Mr. Jones: Well Mayor let me say that 952 of all sanitation departments in this country operate on an incentive basis. The reason they do is because there are certain crews that are faster out there and better organized than other crews and you reward a man if he's a crew if they're well organized and they can finish the job quicker than another one. Mrs. Gordon: Can I ask you a question? Do the men get paid per hour or per week? Mr. Jones: They get paid every week on a 40-hour week. Mrs. Gordon: Well no now if they're working 25-hours a week, they get paid... Mr. Jones: They get 40 just the same. Mrs. Gordon: Well I. see, in order words, if a man is a fast worker and he does his job and gets home in a hurry you're penalizing him otherwise , right. Mr. Jones: Correct. Mrs. Gordon: Well I don't know why we should penalize efficiency? Mr. Jones: That's right I say I'm against operating on a 4o-hour week. I would rather operate on an incentive basis. 1 think the 25-stand-by laborers are sufficient to do the job, I think if a man -- Mrs. Gordon: Where is the discord? You're in agreement with each other Mr. Andrews are you discord with you? 52 SEP 2 1975 es Mr. Andrew:;: No, we Have tried to wotk this out with the tcptesentatives and we started out on the basis that we were going to eliminate fat mote than the ntth1bet of stand-by's that now exist and we compromised and We turned aotfir additithal ten or twelve, I've 1otgntten the nuhbets now and ended up with 25-sEnncf by positions, this has keen in effect fot two months. This is the f tsf I've teally htatd about any problettt as fir as scheduling vacation is concetned,Mr. :tunes evidently hasn't had time enough in bring this t.n my attention but as far ns 1 knew we had teaolved the problem, any problem that we had and we've been working fnt the past two months in a manner which produced the same level of setvices tltnt we've been able to provide in the past but we reduced it as a result of thst 45-stand-by labor positions, Father tlibson: Ok, let me ask this though? Heretofore you had fout men on that truck. Mr. .tones: Four on the hark and a driver yes. Father Gibson: Four men on the ttuck, let's forget the drivet because the dtiver doesn't move, I had to talk Some of your meet the othet day, you tetnember, ask "their, nk? For the benefit of the public the driver is you can forget that you have the drivet, he's like the supervisor, he's the Fl and 1 C in charge, nk? And the other guys are husslers, These men raised the question that instead of having three men on the back of that truck that they want four, that's the answer l'd like to heat Mt. Jones: You understand that they do have four now but they only have 25 men father Gibson: No, nu. you're -- look you're confusing me and the public. Answer it this way, how many people are swinging on that truck on the hack? Mr. Jones: Four. Father Gibson: Listen to what this man said, the man said you asked three men to swing on the back of that truck. Mr. Duggar: No, what 1 said Father Gibson is that I corrected Mr. Jones when he said there was four men to a truck. I didn't want you to understand that there were supposed to be five men a car. four toters in the back. But when a Man goes on vacation if there ain't a man there they want that other three men to tote that'nther ton and one-half Of garbage or whatever it is. Mayor Ferret Let's get to the crux of the matter. The point-- the crux of the matter is that the department has 25 extra men so that when that fourth man goes on vacation please and the fourth man goes on vacation they will send an extra man to fill in so that he becomes the tourth man, all right now what they're saying is that 25 men is not enough to fill the jobs that are needed and that there will be some routes that will end up with only three men rather than four and what they're saying is they never want to be with three men, they always want to be with four. Father Gibson: Mr. Mayor, I understood that from the word go that's what I was trying to get you'all to see that how do you deal with that number four rather than three? Mayor Ferre: How do we deal with it Mr. Jones? Mr. Jones: On occasions when they have to work with three on the back they have. to work a little longer. And instead of working 25-hours a week. maybe they're work 31- hours a week. Mr. Duggar: Let me clar-- you know we're talking about 25 and 24 hours a week. The tonage that those men pull and those 24-hours a week if they make two loads a day which average a five tons of garbage, that's ten tons of garbage a man has hauled. Now you're talking about hours and hours they could take and spend 40-hours and haul 20 tons a week and there's stuff that's still laying on the street. So you're condemning a man for going out there toting ten tons a garbage in a half of day. They're not machines, they're men, but they're doing that to get that time off and they can't even take their vacations that's the reason that garbage is being picked up off the street because their men can't go on vacation.' Mr. Peter Joffre: When I asked Mr. Jones how he came to the conclusion of these hours, he told me by the time they come in and I told Mr, Jones if you could the time the men don't eat, the hour they take off ahead of time to get out there before that sun comes up you actually could add fifteen more hours to that man a week and what he's comes out too, Because some of those men leave out there 5:30 in the morning to beat that sun. Some of these at 6:00 in the morning you could take their shirts and they would be just out of a washing machine. All we want to see have a full crew. a man to go hours to full crew. We're not asking for these extra men. We want a full crew In every truck 53 SEP 2 1975 that goes out. Because we get a man they get bumps on theft shoulders from and so forth , we can't teplace this man, we don't have enough men. What's going to happen is other men is going to see a man getting sick, he know he's going to be off tomorrow (he says I'm going to go out there with thtre men I`m staying home tob) be= fote you know it you're going to have one or two Men on the route. Mts. Gotdott: How many men are we talking about? Mayor Ferre: 20 men. Mr. Duggan: What l estimated it about now it's apptoximntely 20 men that we would need in otdet to he able to mike more fat lenst make sate that these men ran go oh vacation) that we are not going Into the othet 25 extra men that to make sure that each men all we're asking for is just four ten on the back of the trucks at all tithes. Mrs. Gordon: Mr. Andrews: How much does it mean in dollats and cents to us? Mr. Andrews: 1 don't know what it means. I'd have to --- Mrs. Gordon: Would you be able to find out by tomorrow? Mr. Andrews: Well, I want to make sure we understand the process that we're going through here. We're going to a labor negotiation between labor and the Commission at this point. Now if you want to pursue that let's go ahead but that's what we're doing. rather Gibson: Well ok let me ask you? tot me ask you when you come up with all these other departments, wait a minute, you know I thought 1'd hear that. When you tome up with the other departments who really got their thing together there ain't negotiation between the Commission and the negotiator, you see , now unfottunately fot most of those fellows who are affected in the sanitation department, they don't know how to put their package together quite as neat, lei's admit that, the public will admit that. All of you heads of the department would admit that because you are dealing with a different kind of a human being meaning the h e'an being are the same but the professional level is different. isn't that true Mr. Jones? Sure! you're talking to an old coon,man! Listen if you were talking about tourism you have the professional up there, if you were talking with the engineering department with public works, you got the ptofesssionals up there, if you're talking with building you got the professionals there, you don't have the professional in the sanitation, let's admit you're talking about the police, You're got the professional, because you know what everybody is sensitive man we want crime wiped out and nobody wants his house burned down, isn't it true they're the lowest paid people, just about and they work like hell. With all those big cans on their backs and all that and since I must speak to the people for the city Mr. Andrews I have no objections to hearing their complaint. I hear the other people's complaint and I'll hear there's and I'll be the advocate for all the workers whether they be in the Building Department - for anybody else. What is fair, right and just is where Theodore is. Now I think if theytD fall to tango on that truck we ought to consider for it. I hear what I hear but I don't understand it. Mr. Plummer: Well let me ask this question, Charlie if 25 additional men is that enough for the men who are not showing up that are full-time workers, does that adequately cover vacation, sick time, all of the time off? Mr. .tones: No it doesn't.thoy have to work short every so often, but like I say for the past two months I think we've had as high as six routes that has had to go out with three. Sometimes it's three routes. I think the attendants or the regular men has improved because they know they don't have all of these stand-by laborers to fall back on new. Mayor Ferre: Mr. Jones, six out of how many? Mr. Jones: We have 57 routes. Mayor Ferre: So it's about 10% at the maximum . Mr. Jones: Now, I'm not saying that this vacation time is just actually passed and I think that during the (say) May, June, July, and August when most of the men want to take vacation then it becomes more of a problem but Mr. Plummer: Charlie how many men would you say it would take to send four men out at all times? 154 SEp 2 1975 In other words v,u4►e. got 25, how many More would be needed? Mr. Jones: Well 1 would say that we could get by with 40 without any ptoblen, however I want to go on tecofd as saying the use of Stand-by labot is a bad thing. . Mr. Plummer: I know that. Mr. Jones: And -••- now that wt• have cut down to 25 you knnw t don't want to ease back up Again. Mr. Plummer: is it possible the then to that -could be used on the regular Mr. Jonest Well we do use theta. We and Friday and c'n Monday and Tuesday route that ate used trick=ups? only pick up we use these for the the bulk ctews to buck --and 1'11 get back on Wednesday, Thursday, advantage on a tegulat Mr. -Plummer! How many ten on the bulk pick-up? Mr. Jones: Ah--there's eight. Mt. Uuggar: You're talking about two cranes and trucks, what we're talking about is toters, the men who do the hard =-- Mr. Jones: Ten. Mr. Plummner: tin getting back to the philosophy, can we afford this plus item, that's the philosophy I'm getting back too. Well Mr. Manager what do you recommend? Mt. Andrews: I'm not going to make a recommendation at this time until after i''ve talked to Mr. Jones and find out more about this. Mr. Plummer: That's fair enough. Mayor Ferret We'll take this matter up again tomorrow morning. All right le the Chief here? Chief, have you gotten your figures now? Chief Watkins: There's two set of figures, one we ask each section to compile what he thinks he need in his budget and after giving that list compile we usually discuss in. - formally with the budget and then send a department budget in. The department budget that weht down had 16 police officers and 2 sergeants . Mr. Plummer: Now that's what you recommended 16 police officers and 2 more sergeants. Mayor Ferret In addition to these numbers that we have here. Mr. Plummer: No, no. these numbers now don't get it confused Maurice, these numbers are 44 that are here that are not policemen these are janitorial and things of that nature. If I understand you correctly your request for 16 additional men and 2 additional sergeants. Chief Watkins: Yes this is in addition to the figures that you are using now. None of which were ---- Mr. Plummer: So you're talking about 18 people. Chief Watkins Yes. Mr. Plummer: Ok, that's what I wanted to know. Now Mr. Andrews, want to talk to him a- bout it or do you want to go into a long discussion now? Mayor Ferre: Is there anything else that has to be asked of the Chief now? Mr. Plummer: Well the question is asked what about lieutenants? Chief Watkins; It was only 2 sergeants and 16 police officers. Mr. Plummer: Ali right and you feel that this at the time you made the request was justified? 555 MEW MEW MEM MEW SEP21975 Chief Watkihst Yes you'd have to remethher this is certain priorities oh what the sections have asked fur in light of what we wete talking with the economy being what it is. Mt. Plummer: Just for my own edification, what was the total numbet originally requested by all departments of all units? Chief Watkins: 1 believe it was 72 police officets, 2 sergeants and lieutenants: Mt. Plummer: So you boiled it down to 16 and 2. Mayo Fetre: All right. Are there any other questions from the Comtission to department heads? Mr. Plummer: Mr. Mayor, one other question I have of the Manager and it relates to every department is what his intent for the coming year.? This yeat we found ourselves around Januaty or February with a total freeze on employment except fot police, 'fine, and sanitation and that was to be in effect as I recall until the fitat of octobet. What is yout intent this year from 'October l on? Mr. Andrews: to immediately begin evaluating vacancies as they occur, because we haven't solved all the problems that I'm aware of which 1 have not brought to the Commission because we are not sure to what extent those probletits will materialize in the nutnhets that we have. May I give you just one or two examples, the group we rec-- evied a letter from the group insurance carrier that but insurance is going to be increased one million, two hundred thousand dollars and that for 3/4 of next yeat that would if we continue to pursue that amount to $900,000.00 that's not included in this budget. Now, wo either going to have to find a way of funding a portion of that and fot round figures half of that cost would be borne by the employees and roughly half of the cost is 44 and 56's proper breakage of that, but it represents about $450,000.00. Mr. Plummer: Mr. Andrews: Mr. Plummer: Si: that's for this coming year? That's this coming sear. Su we're talking about this 1 million 456 with an additional 450? Mr. Andrews: ':o the ... hear me out again, they gave us notice that the premium would increase annuall. approximately 1 million 200 thousand dollars for three quarters of one year that's 900 thousand dollars. Mr. Plummer: That's right. Mr. Andrews: Approximately half of that is city responsibility and half employment. In addition to that you'll recall that 1 raised objections to the ordinance that the Commission adopted and I must admit that at the time you adopted this I hadn't realized that you passed it on an emergency basis to reference to adjusting the pension program and I find since the budget was published and going back and checking the records that in fact that was adopted as an emergency so it's law and there's a hundred and 80 thous- and dollars in round figures needed for that. We will in the coming year be making adjustments in various departments as an example in public works, Mr. Grimm believes that there are additional areas that can be reduced. This is something that we place the burden on him and he has responded and by working with the City Manager's Office we're going to be able to phase out some additional positions in that department. And that's true of a few other departments. One of the other areas Mr. Jones has been pleading with me to and I've agreed to somehow find an Assistant Director position for that department in keeping with the whole reprogramming of that department when we go to the new sanitation services after the transfer station is constructed. So, we approach this budget with certain problems we know that we must solve here at the Commission table now and there are certain other problems dealing with money and programs that need to he solved when we are into the budget year and I think they are solvable but we have to he careful where we're going. Mr. Plummer: Mr. Andrews hack up for a minute. Mr. Andrews: Yes sir. Mr. (in 50% Plummer: You indicated... did I understand you correctly that half of what the other words) whatever the city pays per employee for insurance that approximately is paid by the employee? Mr. Andrews: 46% roughly. 54 by the employee and 44 or 45 by the Mr, Plummer: Is that an indication to me that this insurance that the employee is ,:osting in access of a thousand dollars a year per we're affording to employee? 56 SEP 2 197 Mr. Plummer: Well my figures come out to $519.20 per employee now if that's 46%, Mr. Andrews: The total contribution for the insurance plan is 2 million something. The city's portion 1s 1 million 4 and some thousands. -- Mr. Plummer: Add to that an additional 450 thousand for this year . Mr. Andrew:: Hut wait a minute let's approach it differently if you will please and that is the city's contribution is 1 million 456 thousand dollars if that represents about 45'1 and the employees ate paying 55 they're paying about 1 Million 600 and some thousand so that's 3 million dollars together and this insurance notification that we received if it stands we're not sure that it is Mr. Gene Naples: Let me make a point on that if you will. please? Your premium is directly related to your experience and what hers talking about is that they have said that based on their anticipated --=the experience we've had so fat and this doesn+t even carry over a quartet . it's over a three month period that they're anticipating this and there is no that l can see that we can (you know) sit and definitely make a judgment that we're going to have that much of a premium increase and on the eispefience that they're talking about. Mt. Plummer: P see your point, ok? But a thousand dollats a year per employee for hospitalization Baby they ought to he getting a hell of a lot more than what they ate! Mr. r;ene Naples: it's life and hospitalization and let me say for the record that the employee pays all of his extended medical coverage and that the city is paying 80% of the employee coverage. Now, what it amounts to in dollars and cents... Mr. Plummer: I'm talking about the total cost per employee represents en excess of a thousand dollars a year. Mr. Andrews: That's correct it's approximately between 55 and 60 dollars a month per employee. We recorded that when we were in the process of rewriting the specs, this actually represents a reduction in cost of what we were paying Metropolitan last year. Now, the experience factor may very well change the carrier's position but from the stand point of considering what kind of problems we might have for the future 1 have to take what is supplied me and look at the worst side and then make some adjustments and it may not turn out to be quite as bad as it appears hut right now if we go on the one quarter n year's experience it appears that it is going to be that much. tir. Plummer: So hospital costs aren't going down. Mr. Andrews: To answer your question we will havc to begin a process in October or November quite similar to the profess that we established in May and June of this year when we begin looking at our budget and recognizing the difficulties that lie ahead. Mr. Plummer: That means next year we have a 70-year amortization on pension.( I'm sorry for that but I see what's coming). Mr. Andrews: I wouldn't recommend over 40. Mayor Ferre: All right is there anything else in this general area? Now, I'm going to ask at this point whether any of the department heads wish to address the Commission? Mr. Andrews: Mr. Mayor in behalf of one department director and that's Mr. Demby's organization, I want to state again because that's an area that we're going to have to consider some final adjustments in the type of equipment that we are ordering for the department for the maintenance of our communication system and the fact that he needs one or two additional technicians in that department which we were unable to fund at the time we were putting this budget together that's on our list here to attempt to achieve some benefit for. Mayor Ferre: All right. Are there any department heads that wish to address the Commission? Mr. Paulk: Mr. Mayor and members of the Commission. Mr. Manager, the budget that the Civil Service Office has submitted I think we can get by with depending upon many things and those many things are contained within certain things that are going to occur perhaps next week in the week of September 8th when the Justice Department Representatives per- haps return to discuss the Consent Decree and what might be contained within that which may or may not evolve in a Consent Decree but depending upon what the requeatl are, what the work load may evolve into,would depend upon whether or not we may have to make some adjustments or may have to have some adjustments, so I can't say at this time but I do J ./ SEP 2 1975 want to caution you that there may be many things that may caw3e an increase. Mayor Ferre: Mr, Andrews, we all understand that don't we? Mr. Plummer: Ike understands it but when it comes to funding It he won't be around. Mayer Fore: Ail right any other department hendt would like to address the Ctrmmiaaion on the matter of the proposed budget? if not 1 think we'll start with the -+ Mr, Plummer: Let me ask one question, Mr. ienhings, I would like a complete break -down and I'm going to use one area, the golf coutse(Mr, Howard) you got out of that one lucky. Mr. Howard 1 want a truthful figure as to what is the revenue, what do we in fact shake or lose on a golf department (on the two golf courses)? Mr. Howntd: The income is about 12 thousand less than the expenses at Mel Reese and the ihcotne at Miami Springs was about 30 thousand dollar's less than the - Mayor' Fetre: 30 thousand? Mt. Plummer: What you ate telling me then is that it cost this city approxihately 42 thousand dollar's a year above the opetating cost. Whose in charge of the Maritsa? Mayor Ferree Weli, well wait a moment, wait a moment. 0n this golf course I want to tell you something and Paul while we're on this subject you know Mold you we''re going to get the Marina's in a little while, that's one of the questions that I was coming up with but the point I want to make bete. I thihk it's absurbed for the taxpayers of the City of Miami to subsidize the golf players of this community for 42 thousand dollars and I say "nuts to that", because I mean we got a lot of important things to do and one of them is not subsidizing the golf players around here. I don't mind having public golf course, but I be darned (I think) that if you wete to take the golf playing member. - ship or the golf players In the City of Miami out of 375 thousand people that we have (I doubt very much Ii you could say that let 1 I doubt very much If you could say St, in fact I would doubt very much i1 you could say 17 played golf. In all honesty, 1 think that it's just.. unreasonable, t :jean why don't we subsidize all of the tennis players and all the squash players , and all the boat owners and everything else. in other words I think we ought to help - have public golf course -but doggone it I don't think the taxpayers should be subsidizing them. Mr. Howard: That was In tlu: past however, this year because of certain changes and the operation et the gulf course and +ome slight increases we will break out even. Mr. Plummer: Maybe. Mr. Howard: No we will. We will break out even this year. Mayor Terre: Oh- well that's different. Mr. Andrews: He's talking about this year. Mr. Howard: The recommendation that was submitted this year in the budget which will eliminate some of they unnecessary expenses that we've had since the golf course was opened, , plus the fart that we were the lowest. have been the lowest with the fees than the County. Mayor Ferry: Let me stop you and ask you this now we got the two golf courses right? How many people average (you know) average just last year, how many people use that • golf course, how many players? Mr. Howard: About 67,000, 69,000 at Leieune and it was in the 70's at Miami Springs. Mayor Ferro: That's 140 times that somebody played. Now, you gotta be careful lw..urse that doesn't mean that 1.0 thou::a:d people played. What it means --- Mr. Andrews: 140 th.,u,;.nad event date. Mayor Fevre: Ok. Now, whether or not that's 10.000 players or 5,000 players (we don't know) but assuming that it's between 5 and 10,000 people to use that course. !law many of those 5 to 10,000 people are from the City of Miami, do you have any idea? Mr. Howard: We tried to do s survey in there for a while to find out and it came to about 5:%. Mayor Ferret 5 ,rt the cnt,,l, so nut only is the City of Miami subsidizing golf 58 SEP 2 1975 players but it turns out the City of Miami Is subsidizing bon -city residents to play golf. Mr. Plummer: I think your tfigures if you use your hock will omr out to 129 rather than 1711, it's 12'1.14 that's whirl it ts. Mayor Ferre: It one guy plays golf 10 times at year in that golf course then you't)e got to divide that. Mr. Howard: I think the Manager fs "referring to a different number of people and those are the same people all over. Mayor Ferre: I'm talking about human beings that play---- Mt. Plummier: Mr. Mayer, let me tell you why i brought this up ok? Ok if 1 bring it up? Mr. Mayor 1 had a group of people that came to me who wanted to take and put the golf course out on a franchise fully aware that if we did it would have to be opened to all people to bid on the golf courses, ok? Now, these people came to the and as the Charter provides 1 said, hey go to the Manager, speak to the Manager he's the one, then if you disagree with the Manager come hack to me and then if 1 feel there is a need we can bring it before the Commission. Now these people went to the Manager and these people came hark to me kind of tongue and cheek4didntt know what to do and what they wanted to propose was that they would take over the golf courses,they would run them, they would operate them, they would maintain them, give the city annual guarantee income, plus a percentage. Mayor Ferre: Well I'm for that. Mr. Plummer: Well I hope you are because it's coming up. I've asked the Manager to 'o hedulu it. for (whim is It the 4th of the 25th), ok? Mayor Ferro: well, 1'11 go further. I'll toll you this. Any facility that we have that is not supporting itself we ought to consider putting it out for some kind of franchise, any tattlity: ok? It it doesn't carry it's own weight, then we ought to try and get,the private sector to carry it. if the private sector don't want to carry it then we gotta decide whether or not we want to use taxpayers money to subsidize and if we do that's line. That's something that we have to decide (the five of us here) as a matter of policy, but I'll tell you right now this vote right here is for putting every- thing nut far bid to the private sector that is not carrying itself. Now, if we're making money on it, ii the Marine Stadium is breaking even and we got enough coming in that's fine I'm with you. And if we don't do it that way out it goes for bids and if we can get the private sector. Let me t,ll you something that was shocking to me that 1 heard the other -ray that made a lot of sense after you think of it. There is not one sport's arena in these United States that's run by any government that makes money. They all lose money. There's not one private sports arena in the United States that does not make money. That all make a profit. Mr. Plummer: Profit is not a dirty word. Mayor Ferre: But the point is that there has got to be a reason why a governmental entity evidentally is not able to run some facilities as efficiently as the private sector and we shouldn't be scared of saying look if we can't do this we go out and get somebody else to do it. As long as two things are served; the public purpose and the taxpayers that's all. It's just that simple. Mr. Gene Naples: Excuse me Mayor, I think that in a public sector and in Miami and the Golf Course in other cities I think they are run just as efficiently. There are certain handicaps that we have to operate under as to why we can't make a profit but as far as efficiency is concerned I think our golf courses ---- Mayor Ferre: You know Plummer is got a little sign up there (what's that sign say)? Mr. Plummer: Which one? Profit is not a dirty word. Mayor Ferre: No, no the other one. Mr. Plummer; The only way to measure ability is in results. Mayor Ferre: That's it,ok. Mr. Plummer: The bottom line. Mayor Ferret The bottom line, that's what I'm looking at. I'm not saying you can't run it as efficiently, I'm saying if we're losing money and somebody else ran give us 59 SEP 2 1975 tt little money and clo the same thing and charge the same athount and keep the same golf' course well God bless him, l'm not against hits. I'm tot that. And all I'm saying is it's a matter of public policy. 1 think this Commission should go on record that any public facility that does not make a profit for us that we should put it out for public bids and if we don't get any takers then we ought to consider whether of hot it setves the public Interest to keep that facility going. One by one we ought to s--- Mr, Pittner: A11 right, well t don't want to get you in the middle4tsle in any way, shape or forth, but this proposal Mr. Mayor also had where these people wete willing to take and upgrade the golf courses and also to build the swimming pool to give it n country club atmosphere and give the swimming pool to the city. Now I'm tot finding fault with the administration, hut for some reason the administration gave them a flat answer (we're not interested). Now that doesn't set well with me and that's why I've scheduled it tot an upcoming agenda. The next rites the Marina. Mr. Howard: I just want to say one more thing = it is the full intention the #coming yeat to have the golf courses break even or make money and to eliminate some of the yolks around out necks that we couldn't bring money into the bottom line as you so speak. t mant to relate that with the efficiency and we got certain built in problems but if we have a man whose sitting bete with the petformance bond of a guaranteed income to the city. Let me tell you where 1 learned it (there's no sectet about it) that scoreboard, that scoreboard in that Orange Bowl taught me a great lesson because when that was originally proposed by Mel Reese we wete looking at this city spending a million dollars to put that thing up there and here this thing turned around and this is where I. compliment this administration through some damn fine sharp negotiation, this city now has a scoreboard and 18,000 dollars a yeat guar- anteed income. That taught me a lot. I'd like to get to the Marinas. Mayor Ferre: Pelican (that Rusty PelIran Restaurant is the point. Mr. Plummer: Yen, the man told me Mr. Andrews and I in Los Angeles of 40 restaurants that specialty restaurants operate that the Rusty Pelican is the finest toleration that they have, that their money maker that they have a minimum guarantee to the city of 75.000 a year and they have never given less than 150,000 a year to this city. Now, Mr. Jennings I want mention any names in any way shape or form so no retribution and I know that it wouldn't be. let me tell you l was cut to the quick on a recent trip that I made. When a man told me that he had a slip in a Marina down the street here which we didn't own previous and he was very happy with this slip, that he was paying $97.00 a month, the city came in made,improvements and he's noiV paying $25.00 a month for that same slip. C Ould there be any truth to that? Mr. Jennings: Yes sir, there certainly could. Mayor Ferre: And wait a minute let me tell you further, let me tell yoxfurther be- cause the Manager and I talked about this. I'll make you a het that guy/talked to you doesn't even live in the City of Miami. Mr. Plummer: Well this one happens to because I know the individual and you know him well. Mayor Ferre: I'll name you some people that I know of that are just when you know over three drinks when the fourth one comes round and you say now look, you know you got a heck of a deal over there and the guy admits that if he were kicked out of the Miami any of these Marina facilities and he had to go to the River or any other place he'd pay twice as much for that same slip. I'll tell you that's all right if --- you know and 1 hope people don't misconstrue that what I'm going to say, because I'm not against wealthy people. I happen to be one myself, but I think it's long overdo for government to stop subsidizing the fat cats and I think the place to start is right here and as far as I'm concerned I don't blink that anybody should be especially people who are not living in the City of Miami, especially people who are not living in the City of Miami should be getting a break that's costing the taxpayers in this community because I'll tell you,you can say it doesn't cost. but it does cost, because if we were getting what everybody else is getting around here you know, we'd be making -- it would be money in closet so we t,.uld do something else for the people and I want to tell you something else, I want to know how many people that we're servicing -and I'm not against beatt'n:; for the community.God knows that they do a .lot for the City of Miami but I don't see why the City of Miami should be subsidizing people with 40 and 50 foot yachts which is what we're doing. 60 SEP 2 1975 Mr, Plutniher: Well, Mr. Mayor can I gat back to my original ptopnsal, because you know it bother§ the when 1 heard things like this. The man — you know , he stetted off his tonvetsation by saying you people of the city ate foole. And now you have vetif* led that we teally at in that boat, Now, hob, what would be your thoughts of taking and putting nut Miathafina and 1ti.nhet key Matina to g ptopotal of a guatahteed itteohte to the city run. ' by a ptivate individual, .lust yout thoughts on the Matter, Mt, Jenhinget .lust offthe top of thy head Vice Mayot, plummet 1 honestly feel ptobably the city would wind up making,netting froth a ptivate opetat„r certainly no mote than we net tight at the thomeht operating oh ourselves and we might vety well het a little bit less, Mayot Fetre: Well why don't you chatge what everybody else is charging? Why should be Mt, Jenhingat t.et the if 1 may explain the situation that Vice Mayor teferted to tartlet. I have no way of knowing what Underwood was chatging fot dockage over there, perhaps 1 do if 1 wanted to get nosey, but at any rate 1 did Mayot Ferte: Walt a thinute, excuse me, what do you mean get nosey; Let me tell you something because I have these people that tun a hotel and then in that hotel theta is A Miami club and they come crying about the price of liquor, I say listen you go find out what the standard club and all these other clubs --(that's not being nosey, loan that's being competitive. i don't see any reason why the Columbus Hotel should subsidize those fat cats that want a dtink at the Miami Club, 1f they want a dtihk that's fine, let them pay what the going rate fot liquor is and that's a private sectot., that's rout of my pocket, - - - -- — I think that you should find out what every Marine in this community is chatging from Patin Beach tight out down to Key West. And I don't think that we should be chatging any less than the avetage of pethaps we ought to try to get a little mote. Mr. Jennings: l do know what they are charging. Mr. Plummer: He gave us that figure in the proposal before. Mr. Jennings: Yes, 1 made studies and studies--- Mr. Plummer: Co ahead and answer the question of why. Mr. Jennings: At any rate when we took over the Marina, the Underwood property, which is ot'viously what you're talking about. The first thing we did was we did not require any of the tenants living there to vacate (in other words) we felt an obligation to allow them to stay and at the same time they have no better accommodations than.the tenants over here at Dinner Key have and therefore why should they pay any Morethan that this was at least the reasoning? Why should they pay a rate which differs from the tenants Mayor Ferre: They shouldn't -- these tenants should be increased. Mr. Jennings: Absolutely true, you're jumping ahead of my story Mr. Mayor. I've been in the process for quite some time and I'm trying to do this (you know) in a way that will make the process as smooth as possible. I've been meeting with the ---I have proposed to the City Manager some time ago an increase in the dockage rates at Dinner Key. Mayor Ferre: Well why do you want to make it smooth?How long have we had Underwood Marina? Mr. Jennings: Well, I'm talking about Dinner Key now. Mayor Ferre: No. I'm talking about Underwood Marine, how long have we had Underwood Marine? Mr, Jennings: Oh two or three months. Mayor Ferre: Three months! Mr. Jennings; Perhaps. Mayor Ferre: Now how much longer are we going -- here's a guy that's paying 98 bucks; then he's moved on to 25 because it's only fair that he's paying what everybody else is paying, instead of what really is fair is that the guys that are paying 25 here ought to be paying 98 which is the going rate. Now, I ---just I'll tell you. 61 SEP21975 Mt, Jennings: Well .let me back up still a little mote then. (we) the Manager came before this Commission pethaps 6 ot 8 months ago with a proposal for a dockage rate ihctease and in fact the otdinance proposing it was passed oh first teading, At that tithe there was some discussion by the tenants Association here at llinnet key and the Matnget was asked to meet with 'theta to tesolve the problems or the dispute and ltsteh to 'theft side of the proposals as to how the dockage tate ihctease should be eofputed, Since that time 1 have been meeting with them. I've had pethaps three ot four diffetent meetings with 'theta to try to teach some meeting of the minds as tegetde to detkege increase, 1 think we ate getting very close to it. Mayot Fetret What is this a negotiation that we're going through. like if it were a union negotiation act? Listen Mt. ',tutnmet: One point that's being ovetlooked it's gotta be intetjected Mt. Mayot, because you maybe .ite notfamiliat ot tetnetnbeted we not only asked that but we asked the Marine Counsel to get involved and they have been involved and very deeply involved, I ath hot speaking to that and please don't tniscohsttue, I'in speaking to the satire philosophy hete as 1 did to the golf courses. Would we the city, be better off of getting out of the business? Mr. Jennings: I don't believe so. I've answeted that. Mr, Plutnret: That's the question I'tn asking today, Mt. Jennings: If you're talking about financially, we'vd be better off, yes. Mayor Ferret I'll tell you I would agree with Plumtneri except =—'-that If you tell me that you're worried and you're considering and we have to negotiate, we have to go very slowly and in doing something which is just, which is chatging what evetybody else is paying and if we have doubts about that, my god man..., Mr. Jennings: Mr. Mayor, it was the Commission that told us to do this. Mr. Andrews: We had no doubt but the Commission instructed us after we introduced the rates and the rates were such that it raised all kinds of concerns among the users that we were given instructions to go back and try to compromise this out. Mayor Ferre: Well, 1'11 tell you if I were here and I voted that way I was wrong and I want to tell you right now I admit It. Mr. Plummer: Can 1 please get my answer? I'll ask it in another way, maybe this will circumvent the Mayor. If in fact, what is our financial picture today as to cost of operation of the Marinas as apposed to revenue. Do we make money nr do we lose money? Mr. Jennings: We make money. Mr. Plummer: All right, how much? Mr. Jennings: Depending on your philosophy of how ---- Mr. Plummer: Mr philosophy --what does it cost us? Mr. Jennings: In the proposed 1975-76 budget the expenditures (projected expenditures) are 630 thousand 571 dollars. The projected revenues are 759 thousand 321 dollars for a profit or whatever you want to call it of 128 thousand 750 dollars. Mr. Andrews; It's not a profit. Mr. Jennings: No, I would have to agree --- Mr. Andrews: Because there is police service, fire service and a lot of other services that we're rendering that has never been taken into consideration. Mr. Plummer: This is what I'm trying to get at — all right, is the electricity involved in that? Mr. Andrews: Yes sir. Mr. Plummer: Repairs, maintenance, up keep;is that involved? Mr. Jennings: That's probably the expenditure figure already. Mr. Plummer: But that covers it all. 62 SEP 2 1975 Mt, Jennings: MLnnt maintennnt•n, yes air. Mr, plummet: No tapitaii/at ton, but itn.r,.' ; no rota tvr in titorr for tho rrwnetnhip nt the ptopett y i• 11 ht•r, in t lu,,,,? Mt, ,Toitfltf gs: N. sit th»rr now,. . Mt. Pluitiiner: Nnw, you lool that the r:ity wouldn't be better t,ff on putting it out on concession? Mt, Jennings: Not if you wet, to become cothpetitive with private enterpttae in your city dockage rates. My anwet would be no. At the moment yes., but if you were to allow the city administration to beedtne competitive with it's dockage Latta, if you Wefe to allow us to increase the dockage rates so that we could be competitive vith private enterptise 1 say that the city would be in a financially. a better p6aitihn running it if operating it themselves, Mr. Plummer: thing, ok and at Dinner Key is understood correct? Mr. Jennings: needs a great All right, Mt, Mayor,so there is no misundetstandttlg 1etie eetablibh oink if you can say this is h negativism nn behalf of the city. the fatuities Mt: Mayor ate in great heed of upgrading, i Mean tretendous heed Olt, that from the very beginning that they only have 110 service there is that Well that's in the area of electrical service there is one pier that deal of attention. Mt. Plummer: ok, so I want that underatood.,. Mr. .Jennings: t don't know whether you--- Mayot Forte: Look, we're never going to settle this thing right here because it's too detail and complicated and we're going to break up in 35 or 40 minutes . Mr. Plummer: 1'l1 back off, but rest assured i''m going to follow it when budget is over, Mayor Ferre: Oh, I'm with you 1 want to, too. Father Gibson: I need to put all of us on guard when Morty he's raising that as an issue. Mayor Ferret I know that. Father Gibson: Because 1 was in the meeting they had and that's a great concern for that committee. Mayor Ferre: Now, I'm going to tell you I hope-4 just want to give you my impression of it Mr. Andrews, you know how I feel about Watson Island, how I feel about restaurants in general and other public enities. Now, I tell you as a matter of philosophy I just think there is no way in the world in which the public sector, the City of Miami can do all of the things that we want to do for improvements in Dinner Key, the whole Dinner Key Master Plan which was supposed to cost 14 million dollars way back in 724 I guarantee you we're over 20 million dollars and even that was a pipe dream I think it'll cost you a lot more than that when you get down to it. Now. I_ think that we really should give serious consideration, serious consideration to getting at; many of these entities nut into the private sector on a competitive bid basis and let these guys really --- there is nothing more efficient than the proper motivation in the world. Let these guys fight, fight for and use those monies in an obligation bond if you will of some sort to get this master plan going. Otherwise we're never going to do it. And I think thrown into that I would take all but we only have two Marinas- three Marinas but the other one is really part of this one, so (all right, three Marinas) but the other one is really part of this one, so --- and I would use that as the basis maybe re -studying and re -thinking this whole idea of putting out like we do with Merrill - Stevens and the other Coconut Grove or whatever it's called and Rusty Pelican and all these other things that have worked for us. We're making money, we're rendering a public service, we can put the perameters, we can say that they can't charge more than the average of the five largest Marinas in Dade County ... we can set the perameters of what we want to serve the public. Fine comes here tomorrow Mr. Plummer: You can reserve quality control that's the key. 63 SEP 2 1975 Mayot Ferte That we can do and you can build it into the system, but what 11tn saying is one, I think we'll make mote mohey out of it; two I thank it'll be mote eff1tientt three, I think we can use that as a apting board to do othet ptojette Pout, you Can use that to under pin some tevenue bohd fiilehcing to get some ptogtams going. 1 meth if we wete to put this out, if we wete to get "x" number of hundreds of 'thousands of dollars a year guaranteed by a responsible bidder who would put a bond to it. We could use that as a method of patlaying softie bond fiheficieg to get some of these progratha going because without that 1 don't just see it happeniftg. Father Gibson: Mr. Mayor, maybe this isn't the place to ask it, but 1 forgot where is that gettlemeh (those two gentlemen who were bete ) Yes, you were one of them, where are those other men?(Mr. Mayor, I want to ask them a question) Yoo lee, I don't want to thihk now that all is over but the ptayer you know the benedictian.lt's quite that easy. Something just came to me 4 Yea the employee group .,-=-a, well that's all tight Mt. Harrison you're one of them, my friend come up -don't come up toy friend; man look , you see you all got me in a jam here I'm in a cross fite. 1 just want the money --- what about that benefit business 1 talk about? I'ti talking about the =--= Mayor Ferre: About the widow when an employee tematties -- Father Gibson: Right, I think that --- Mr. Andrews: What Father Gibson is addressing himself to is -end you correct me if I'm wtong Father if 1 have the wtong interptetation. In adjusting the existing pension otd- finance so that when a beneficiary,a woman in this instance, remarties that the emolument to her will cease and that 1 think when you discussed this with me Father what you were saying is if there were children involved you wanted to bring that out, that benefit should then flow to the children to make sure that they ate protected ---- Father Gibson: I would not be advetse to that, but I just can't see a woman (you know getting married again and then you know. Unidentified Speaker: Let me try and explain --- I think there are two things here that there ate several options on a retirement. I think this particular benefit applies to service retirement after so many years of service so the chances are the Person would be fairly well up there in years. Police and Fire is 51.9 which Commission Plummer will in most cases so, that the benefit wouldn't really apply for that length of a period and the chances of that particular person remarrying would be minimum now where it carries over to a dependent under 1R-years of old , yes the benefit does carry over even if the widow remarries but it does apply as long as she has dependents under 18-years of old. Father Gibson: I don't mind the dependents, that's what I'm getting at, but here is ---- look, man people marrying older and older everyday, you know what 1 mean? Let me say in my business I see woman who's 60 and 70 years old glad to march up thataisle, you under- stand, all I'm saying is I feel like we ought to cut that benefit off and it serves as maybe they should be married, but you know Rose, 1 ain't got no problem with that. All I'm saying is I think that we should not let a person -a woman continue to get that benefit or that security even though she takes the name of another man. Mr. Ken Harrison: You know to clarify this point all that was done with that particular point we lifted the existing ordinance out and applied it in the new ordinance the same wording now if that's a particular problem it is a negotiatable item and I'm sure that the Manager has already indicated that iprobably going to be on the table next year. We didn't put that in last year, that was there all along. Father Gibson: Sir, I'm not accusing; all I'm saying is the Mayor you know you're a pretty good teacher at least for me :lbw I'm not speaking for anybody else. Rev. Gibson: The Mayor continues to say to us that everyday we live we learn and we must face today's issues and problems today. Now, let's assume that all you did was to lift ordinance out of the --- and put it here all I'm saying is I know I'd pick up on it, you know why? The man knows that I'm in a pension system (I am) and I'm sensitive to the fact that if I should die in the morning my wife is protected as long as she remains Mrs. Theodore Gibson when she goes to become Mrs. John Doe, she aint getting no Mr. Ken Harrison: Father, you know there's a - .. - - thing there.what would you think has happened in Social Security if your widow realize that if she remarried she would receive a reduced benefit so she continued just to live with this individual and didn't marry him to continue that benefit, so you got that ramification also, Father Gibson: Lieutenant, I aint got no problem with her living with him if- that's 6 SEP 2 1975 the way she want. to do it, you know but l don't: want het to change that hate.“ Lieutenant --- Lt. Ken itarrisrn: Father I'm willing to look nt it, but 1 think we've got to tealir.e thorn's a lot of tamit'Ications in this thing. i411 assure You that: t will sit down with Mr. Naples and we'll go over. it. Father Gibson: Please, please. Save the day for the. Mayor Forte: All right, now, we only have half an bout. 0o you want to take a five minute break" All right we'll take a five minute break and we'll be tight back. Any other Employee 0tganizatiotis want to talk today? Well, Gene why don't you start things going and then ---= Mr. Naples. Mr. Andrews: Ir. Mayor, maybe it would he appropriate if I make a few cotttiients ih reference to this area and then Mr. Naples can add to that. The employee Organitations have been meeting with Mt. Lanken and based on my ditection we had indicated the way we formulated this budget that it was not possible to include any provisions for a cost of living at the time that we formulated this budget and it waa not possible. Keeping in mind that we tecognixed that we had an obligation to do whatever we were able to do to assist the employees as Tar as an adjustment is concerned. They've evolved within the past two weeks of less based on some reviewing that live become involved in of formulating a way in which we could offer to the employees a five percent increase. The employee in this offet was really made oh Wednesday of last week, Wednesday or Thursday,'whatevet the day was. The employees have in fairness to them not tenlly had the opportunity to completely tespond to the matter now placed on the bargaining table as to a cost of living increase. And I want to indicate to the City Commission that we would like to continue out negotiation process but from what I see of the entire budgetary approach this year with the matters that have been discussed this morning and this afternoon and the list of items that I see now before me that will need to be incorporated in this budget, plus the cost of living that the city will have to find about another 4 to 500,000 dollars either in revenues or reduct- ion of this budget to include the items that we're talking about plus the cost of living. So 1 can say with all sincerity at this point in time based on what I believe. I under- stand of the Commission's feelings and attitude that we would be limited at this time it appears to approximately a 5 cost of living increase. Mr. Gene Naples: Mr. Mayor and members of the Commission I'm very happy to hear the Manager say that the city is in a position that they want to further negotiate. There was quite a bit of doubt in my mind up to that moment that we weren't at an impasse. The city has made us one offer and the Manager just mentioned it. We have come with a proposal to the city that we think Is an extremely reaaoneble proposal. And rather than get into what our proposal is and what the Manager feels that the city might further negotiate of course, et this particular moment 1 was unaware that the Manager was going to make that kind of an announcement, however I would like to make a few points. The three other major cities in Dade County have already concluded their negotiations and I'm speaking to fire. All of these cities have gone with the cost of living increase. The offer that the Manager has made, the only offer the Manager has made would not in any way make the City of Miami Firefighters who are as I'm sure all of you realize, the only number one, class one Fire Department in the Southeast in the United States would put us in fourth position as far as salary increases in Dade County.(four major cities) Mayor Ferre: Gene are you telling me that negotiations have been concluded at Metro, Miami Beach, Hialeah, and that they all include a living wage increase? Mr. Gene Naples: Yes sir, cost of living, plus the fact that Dade County, Metro is this year going into a non-contributory pension plan in which case they will also realize an 8% increase due to the fact they are not going to have to contribute to their pension program. that Metro will have to do that, so there will be another 8% that Metro will have ---- Mayor Ferre: Just out of curiosity Paul where is Metro coming up with that kind of money and not increasing? Mr. Andrews: They're not from what I understand now and following this reasouab3. closely from the figures that are available it now appears that the increase that the County Manager had proposed for the County budget will now have to .•ven go beyond that but we won't really know until the figures are presented and I think they start tomorrow and Thursday with their presentation 00 ---- Mayor Ferre: 0f course, one mill for them. It's much more (I mean) it's what three times ours Mr, Andrews: four times, excuse me really five times as much, We're 20X of the total taxes. So it's about 17 in round figures-- 17 million dollars per mill, 6.5 SEP 2 1975 Mt. Plummer: Let me ask this question. Cod Bless Them and t'm all for them having a better Fire t)epatttnent, but is thete any ptoposal of this so-called inctease itt the Fite Department of Metropolitan Dade County which obviously now a big lot of talk has been trade about it, Ate they going to ptbpoae the Sate thing that they did whet they increased the Police bepartment? In other woote, let's just fot all practical purposes say that they have f; million allocated fot the Fire bepattment and cohceivably they ate going to get another five. Ate they proposing a separate budget and millage to the unincotpnrated area, because that's the only thing that Fite bepattttteht is going to serve Is tht unincorporated area and those ateaa that have a cohtteCtual agteetneht. Mayot Fette: They bettet are they get Mr. Andrews: I wtote a second letter to the the County Manager when I read that the city of Miami Beach, the Council had asked the Managet to explore with Mettopblitgh Dade County, the turnover of their Fite Depatttent and the Police (the Beach police Force, the Beach (uards), 1 immediately wrote to the County and I sent a tbpy to every Municipality it Dade County, ihcluding the prior report and sent to the Cotnmissioh another copy of this same letter putting them on notice that if it was theft ihtentioh to do so, that they had to comply strictly with the consitutional requitetehts and that any such adjustment would have to be accothpliahed without the City of Miathi patticipat. ion, I have since talked to Mr. Lloyd and he's going to research this for me, research this for me in that I have asked hiin verbally, I've hot communicated memotanduttt but we had a meeting in my office this morning rot a few minutes, in which 1 have asked ken the County, legally adopt their budget with the request that we have made that the stake adjustments which would reduce the millage to the taxpayers of the City of Miami in view and in light of the information that we furnished them indicating that there is double taxation. Can they legal.ly(I don't know yet), he's going to find out for us. Mr. Plummer: Well you better hurry., Go ahead Mr. Lloyd. Mr. Lloyd: Mr. Mayor, may I make a recommendation at this time? Mayor Ferre: Yea, I want you to know that we are now touching upon the single most important thing that's coming up before this budget hearings and I intended to kind of save that until tomorrow. Mr, Plummer: Well wait until tomorrow then. Mayor Ferre: We're going to really get into in a moment. Mr. Andrews: Maybe it would be better if the employees come back. I pursume they are, Mayor Ferre: Oh- they're be back. But I'll tell you the question that Mr. Lloyd has been asked of you is an extremely important question and if you want to get into it. Mr. Lloyd: Well Mr. Mayor without ---- but it's connection with that. I have just completely reviewed today we have followed the statute to the letter up untilthis time with the resolution and the presentation to Metro Commission. We filed a petition 1 think one more thing should be done in an effort to protect our position with the Metro Commission and that is I think you and the Commission should be informed of this. During their budget hearings we should have a representative at that budget hearing to I think, elaborate on the petition which has already been filed with the Clerk of the County Commission pursuant to the statute. Mayor Ferre: 1 would assume that the is in the making and 1 would image that the Manager is going to be present and if you want me to go with you I'd be happy to accompany you. Mr. Lloyd: If that's at all possible that would be what I would recommend. Mayor Ferre: I'd be happy and I think anybody else in the Commission that wants to be there should and really has an obligation to be there. Mr. Lloyd: And in the event that this Commission is not meeting at that time I would propose that I would come along too so that the legal ramifications were properly dev- eloped. The is not known when that meeting is. Mayor Ferre; They start on Wednesday. But I really think it's essential even if we are in session that we just break up and just go down there and discuss it with the Metro Commission, because I'll tell you this is double if we keep hearing about dup- lication of services, this is duplication of taxes, We'll have our own Boston Tea Party, wr'll call it the Miami Tea Party. Mr. ten,. Naples: Mr. Mayor, does that have something to do with my preaentation? 66 SEP 2 1975 Mayor Terte: But it may have something to do with yout job, Mrs Gene Naples: They tan afford their tiiefightera. t don't know What the problet is here. Mayor fefte: Ok. Mt. Gene Naples: Nevet..theigeat Mt. Mayot, if the Manager is Ceiling Me f:OW that we ate hot an at nn impasse and that they are willing to £ttthet negotiate. tie knows abbot the plan that l'm speaking of. Mt. Ahdtewa: Now in all fairnega to you so that we don't spend a lot of tithe and don't Come up with something fruitful. the thing that I have to ndviae thia COMMiaaion is that the at:ouht of money that it tequites to tuna a St intteaae is really the limit of our ability to fund the toat of living and for you to spend a lot of tie and a lot of your enetgy with demands that exceed that and tot tee to aay thtougli doe Lanken over the bargaining table ,no there's nothing that we can do, ie flot really going to produce anything,, Mt. Gene Napless to that what you're saying Mt. Andrews, are you saying, -a-. Mr. Andrews: I'tn saying that we'll willing to sit down with you to tty to work something out but it has to be within that =_= reasonably within that 5%. Mr, Oehe Naples: Oh! reasonably, how teaeohahly is teasonebiy? I mean, we can work something out that is very close to that and I'm sure you ate aware of what I'm speaking too. Mr. Andrews: Reasonably teens that a 5X inctease coat 2.4 million to 5 millioh this year and 3 million dollars the following year to come within 4 to S00 thousand dollars of that figure is absolutely as close as too tan come to doing anything otherwise there is no way for me to come to this Cotomisaion and tell you there isn't any mote money be- cause there just isn't and there are others in this room including Mr. Bailey and you're aware that we've made all of the information available to you, we'll make mote information if you want it available to you. Mr. Gene Naples: We're going to make some available to you air in the very near future but what I'm trying to find out from you now is if you're talking about that St and you know exactly the plan that we offerred to the city through Mr. Lanken and if you're say* ins that you are not prepared to Ro there today then what I'm eavins now is that we are going to have to go to the legal recourse that we have under the public employees collective bargaining bill, so if we're an implies I'd like to know it now. Are we at impasse? Ok. Mr. Andrews: 'that's what I'm advising the City Commission as far as my ability to in dicate to you that there is more money than that I'd be foolish to do so because to my knowledgethere is not and all I'm doing to create a problem for the City Commission if I do so. And I want to indicate to the Commission that the arbitration unless I aim understand it is advisory arbitration to the City Commission. Not binding arbittation. Mr. Gene Naples: Yes sir, I'm sure they are, of course Mr. Mayor the very single factor or comparability of us with the three other major cities and with us being a class one city. I think in and by itself would be one of the most important issues that would be placed before the arbitrators and I'm sure that ---- Mayor Ferret Yen, and I might point nut that 1 think it's always been as long as I've been around this city and that since 1967 with a few years off for rest. We have always Paul plighted ourselves of staying up with the prevaling rate in the community and I think that's a factor that really. Mr. Andrews: Well you know we get such things mixed in and if we're going to go into this process we lose sight of some things that have taken place. I don't know whatever happened to the 4% in cost of living that the Fire and Police said they would obsorb at the time that was included in the pension. That's lost somewhere and should be re- surfaced as to what happened to that 4%. Mr. Cone Naples: That went into the pension and then the City Commission also gave all the general employees the 4X and then came behind it and put in 440 thousand dollars into their pension system. We gave up the 4% to get another half percent for our pension and then the city turned around and gave that to the General Employees in which we have no argument with. Mr. Andrews: Well you know that was the decision all that you made, we didn't make it. G7 SEP 2 1975 Mt. Gene Naples: I'm not bringing that point up Mr. Ahdtews you Ate. Mr. Andrewst Well thete's 4Z lost in there which the tecotds clearly reflect that the Fire Fighter and Police said that they would accept ih the pett9iob systefl in lieu to a cost of living. Mr. Andrews: Now do we take that into account in this process? Mt. Gene Naples: You're talking about 4 yeats ago or so. Mayor Ferre: I'm sure you have to take it into accounts but the premise still remains as fat as this matter is concerned that the employees of the City of Miami should not make any less (in my opinion) than the going wage fates it this &Mt:unity, that just happens to be my personal opinion. Mt. Gene Naples: Mt; Mayot4 we have agreed that we will take lees for this next year but we want to wind up with the end of the year to where we are soinewhete cofnparable to the othet three major cities who have nothing even close to a lst class fite depatttaent. You know we Can talk about equipment and evetything else but when we ate talking about the 1st class fire deparment4 sooner or latet somebody is going to have to filter it down to the people that are running that department. Mayor Petre: 1 might say that it's beginning to be that 1 understand that it's begin= ping to be where some day and 1 hope it's going to be ptetty soon we're going to say that about the Polite Department, Mr. Andrews: Now Mr. Mayor and members of the Commission 1 was under the impression that we were• going to compromise out of cost of living as provided in the agteement not a wage structure. Now if we're going to start mixing in weight structure and cost of living and wages that othet jurisdictions have and 1 don't know what studies they'd gone through to arrive at that, that's another matter, but my understanding that we are talking about cost of living. Mr. Gene Naples: Ok, let's do that then Mr. Andrews and go hack to the twelve to 143.- cost of living that we're really--- you know something that's very real and we are not even clone to that. Mayor ferry: Now did the federal employees get recently? Mr. Andrews: I can tell you Mr. Mayor from the information 1 received the Advisors to the President and the Unions all and the Civil Services when they had recommended a 9.1 or so ti, increase and they settled out with the president granting a 5% increase. Mr. Plumm.•r: You know I hate to way this;, I begged you all last year to set a formula last year and we wouldn't he into this hassle this year. Mr. gene Naples: We wanted to he nice guys last year J.L. Mr. Plummer: I begged you all to go for a formula I didn't care what it was. Mayor Ferry: Well Paul, where do we leave this because it's now 5:30. Mr. Andrews: 1 just wanted to make surd that and I'm willing to sit down and try to negotiate this out to Mr. t3nken but in fairness to the Commission and the employees to spend a great deal .it time• on this knowing that at least there :are limitations that 1 have to work with in advising the Commission and the limitations are that we can't exceed a 3 million dollar expenditure for a cost of living this year. Mr. Gene Naples: That's 6%. Mayor Ferre: It all depends on how you spend it. Let me ask you this now. When are you going to do this? Mr. Andrews: They're been meeting, they even met part of today, they did this early this morning some of them so we'd have to be doing this over the nett several days. Mayor Ferre: Well now that': all fine except Reboso and I are getting on a plane on Sunday, we won't be back until ( I think it's the 20th) or the 18th or 19th something like that. So and the 20th is Saturday ---the earlier Manolor and I could meet would be on Monday, the 22nd. Mr. Plummer: And 1 can't meet on a Monday. Mayor Ferry: That means the next day would be the 23rd. G$ SEP 2 1975 Mr, Plummer: Well 1 don't see anything wrong with that, Jttet actually what toe'te doinigmes cahcellihi Ftiday's meeting really is what we're doing. Tuesday's all fight Mayor 1ette: Unless you can do it between now and Friday t don't see anyway, Mt. Plummer: How can you you got Commission all day Thursday`! You got two scheduled heating§ tomorrow, t don't see htw, you can do it. God knows you got a full tbfhing tomorrow morning. We just cancel ttiday's fneetitig Mr. Ahdtews ari tat as getting the appropriations which we can't do with this up in the hit, Some of the other things, Mayor Fevre: I'll tell you because of the County consideration Which is eatehtial in my part Paulf pethaps I might really end up being best, I kind of vented to get this thing over with eatliet but we're always going with those intentions but thete ate other petipheral cbtlsidetations et this point and one of theta happens to be What Metropolitan bade County does in regards to those two lettere you sent and that's en important part. Mr. Plummer: Wait a minute let Me have nn understanding there because maybe t Wm, understand. What are we talking about if the County adepte ynut budget, your proposal, it won't reduce or it won't make more money availnhle to the city Will it? Mayor E'ette: Mr. Plummer: Mr. Andrews: Mayor Fevre: No. Non at all, If they --=� It reduces the tax to the taxpayers . Mr. Plummet: That's tight so I don't see where that has such a great beating hete. Mayor Ferrel Well I knew it doesn't have a direct bearing but let me tell you something if we ran win principle that services that ate not being rendered to the citizens of Miami should not be paid by the citizens of Miami which is the factor Ray Goode has already excepted in principle by doing what he did two years ago but if he excepts it and it's totality it might mean a half of mill or a mill production on the part of the Metro budget as it regard to citizens of Miami. 'that's important. It's important to me. Mr. Plummer: Well let me bring up one other subject Mr. Mayor while we are sitting here contemplating because we 're talking about a time [tame. No I'm not through with him but I'm just in the same vain, you know we've got the unemployed, or the retired employees that have been told that it is a negative there and I'm just hoping that within that same time frame they will go back and talk with the Manager again to try to iron out you know, some difference or some compromise or something, so keeping in mind that what- ever we do here if it is a time frame situation that the retired employees are afforded the opportunity to go In and talk. Mr. Andrews: Mr. Mayor and members of the Commission if I may subject because there too, there is little that will be really and talking to me about it I know all of the factors, I cannot recommend that adjustments be made. We have given adjustments has given adjustments of 2%-1972, 12-1973, 12-1974, this meant retired for 10-years during that period received approximately emolument. I'd like to dwell on that accomplished by coming at this point and time of --the City Commission that the employee who is a 40% increase over this Mr. Plummer: Paul, what I would like to know is as one Commissioner if we give a 1% increase using that hypothetically to the retired employees, what does that represent in dollars? I don't know that today. Mr. Andrews: 400 thousand dollars. Mr. Plummer: 11? Mr. Andrews: 17.. Now that represents gets 10%. Mr. Plummer: Of his emolument. 12 per year so that the employees for 10 years Mr. Andrews: The total of all of that for this coming year would represent about 400 thousand dollars, Mr, Gene Naples: Mr. Mayord ust as a point Washington Office that there is a hill that of information f understand from our has just passed the house that has to do 69 SEP21975 II[ mmm ggE MMF '. with public safety and I think you'll check with your lobbyist that it hooks teal good and the City of Miami stands to pick up 1,9 million dollars for public safety, Mayor Ferre: You'te talking about the Anti=recession bill ? Mr. Andrews: Counter cyclical. Mayot Ferre Countet cyclical, well l tell yOu 1'vr been lobbying tent hard on that one. Mt. Gene Naples: 1.9 looks good for the City of Miami. Mayor Ferre: I don't mean to get into politics here but I wish those of you that are friendly to Laeton Chiles would send him a letter to teeonsider. Mt. Gene Naples: He's got a telegram. Mayot Fetre: Because you know that was as fat as I'm concerned was a teal bad vote on his part. I'm really upset about it. Because he voted against it. Stone voted for it in the Senate but as I understand it passed the house now. Mr. Gene Napless That's my understanding. Mayor Ferre: It passed the Senate and passed the house so now it goes to conference is that it? Because it's a different bill. That means 1.9 million dollars for the City of Miami which would be terrific. No. Here's the way that works, it's a noh- going thing anything it's a formula and the formula is based oh the premise of 6% unemployment, anything your city goes over 6% unemployment based on how much unemploy= ment you have in your city, that's how much you get back and there are other consider= ations but that's the main one. Well we'll be meeting here tomorrow morning at 9:00 o'clock is that correct? Is there anything else to come up before this Commission, this public hearing at this time? Mr. Plummer: Mayor Ferre: Mr. Andrews: Mayor Ferre: Gene's still standing there what are we going to do? He knows what he's going to do. He's going to come back tomorrow as I understand it. He knows what he's going to do, he's going to meet with the Manager and Mr. Andrews: I thought Mr. Mayor that when you started out and I interrupted Mr, Naples presentation that you were arriving at a decision that they would come back tomorrow and we'd start at this point tomorrow and we'd start at this point tomorrow so there'd be continuity with each one of the employee groups recognizing limited time. Mr. Gene Naples: Mr. Andrews, Mr. Mayor, well we'd like to know at this point again let me repeat myself if we're at impasse then we're going to have to initiate certain procedures under the law to go to atbritation, meditation, whatever is necessary, If we're not ---Mr. Andrews indicated they're ready to sit down, he knows --- Mayor Ferre: He just told you he's not on an impasse and I told you that 1 don't think you're going to come to an agreement on this thing by Friday and since you're not going to come to an agreement. If you do "great". Mr. Gene Naples: We can. It takes five minutes. All it takes is five minutes. Mayor Terre: Well that's terrific. If you can come to an agreement by Friday, I'll call a meeting en Friday and we'll settle this whole thing and we're be on. So you meet whenever you can and then you can do it by Friday well God Bless You, I'm all for you. 1'd really love to leave Miami knowing that this budget procedure is behind us. Mr. Plummer: I will also have answers on the Police Department, the Sanitation Department tomorrow. Mr. Andrews: We'll try. I got all of the people standing by here and I'll try to get everything worked out tonight so that we can supply you with those answers tomorrow and have a clearer picture of what our requirements are. Mayor Ferre: Tony, you want to address the Commission? Mr. Tony Wilcox: We've met with the Manager and he told us he didn't have any money in the budget for us, but we asked for 12 same as last year and the misinterpretation about 70 SEP 2 1975 the 10 and 15 year people, they wete 90 & 90 dollat a month people, they're up now about 90 dollars. 1 can use my oft case for illustration. I was getting $325,00 a month now tt's up to $500.00 and we're trying to take care of the lower ones by mentioned it that way. So if you can get the 400 thousand dollars we'd like to have It. Mr. Andrews: Maybe: we ran find a formula that anybody that has less than 100 do11at8 they'te the ones that get the benefit and ho tine else. Mayor Fetre: 1 want to tell you something I don't know Whether those of you that teed the New York Times whether you say an article oh Govettlot drown in California and you know he came out with the most startling -s-t couldn't believe it but the mote you think of it the more you --=I happen to agree with the guy, do you know What he said? He said we're going to increase everybody the same and it's not going to be oh a petcehtage basis. Because t teally don't see why a Judge ought to be tasking thote that, a policeman. Did you guys, did ahybody teed that? And it teally, it's a startling Statement but when you stop to think of it you know I think this couhtty is going to statt heading in that kind of ditection and i think What you're saying coming back to yout poiht is that we teally should be mote concerned about the matt that's making 90 dollars a month than the one that's taking 500. Mr, Tony Wilcok: give me 20% but a man that's been off -we got some getting $20,000.00 a year and here's one been off a couple of yeats they will get 2t sn we thought that was a fair formula. Mayor Fetre: All right, Mr. Andrews, then it's in yout hands and we'll meet tot:Otto*, what at 9:00 o'clock? See you at 9:00 tcnaortow. ADJOURNMENT There being no further business to come before the City Commission, on motion duly made and seconded, the meeting was adjourned at: 5:45 O'C1ock P. M. ATTEST: H. D. SOUTHERN City Clerk RALPH G. ONGIE Assistant City Clerk MAURICE A. FERRE Mayor 71 SEP `z VS