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HomeMy WebLinkAboutCC 1975-07-11 Minutesa • CITY OF MIAMI COMMISSION MINUTES OF MEETING HELD ON July 11, 1975 PREPARED__ BY THE OFFICE OF THE CITY CLERK CITY HALL CITY OF MIAMI DOCUMENT DOCUMENT: IDENTIFICATION COMMISSION AGENDA AND CITY CLERIC REPORT 11111111111111111111110111.101111111111111111111111111111.11 MEETING DAB TE July 11, 197 i COMMISSION RETRIEVAL ACTION CODE NO. 0001 TRANSCRIPT OP JOINT CITY -COUNTY COMMISSION MEETING JtJL,y 11 # 19 7 5 On the llth day of July, 197E ' trembers of the Miatiii city Commission and the Metropolitan Dade County Commission met ih joint session in the Mayor's Conference Rootn on the second flour of the Dade County Courthouse. The meeting was called to order at 10:14 o'clock A.M. by Mayor Maurice 1erre with the following persons present: Miami City Commissioners Rose Gordon and reverend Theodore R. Gibson, Miami Mayor Maurice A. Ferre; Metro- politan Dade County Commissioners Beverly B. Phillips, Clara Osterle, Senator Harry Cain and Metro Mayor Stephen P. Clark. Also present were P. W. Andrews, Miami City Manager, Ray Goode, County Manager, John Lloyd, City Attorney, H. D. Southern, Miami City Clerk, City of Miami Budget Officers, Willard Beck and John Johnson; members of Metropolitan Dade County's administrative staff, and members of the news media. 1' The following discussion occurred:"DOCUMENT NDE ITEM X Mayor Ferre: I had the good fortune of spending tho n—dap�s� j� in Boston --and I might recommend --I know that all of you are very busy and that is the reason you could not attend, but next year I would very strongly recommend that both the County and the City of Miami go to these meetings. There is an awful lot of hard work that comes out of these work sessions, and as you may know there are two conferences in the United States. One is the Conference of Mayors, and the other is the League of Cities. The league of cities is in my opinion just a little bit in disarray; you know, the Chairman --they are looking for a new director, and I went to both of these meetings, The Conference of Mayors, even though it is a conference of mayors, is really for commissioners, too, and they get down to real nitty gritty basic problems. I am not saying this in any form of criticism, but I was embarrassed to the point, because I spent an hour with Secretary Coleman, and I obviously have got nothing to do with transportation; that's a Metro function. I spent an hour and a half with Secretary Carl Hills of H.U.D., and had a real, real good session with him, even though again housing does not come under my purview or that of the City of Miami. Now this, or these are just great opportu- nity to work with the very top people in Washington, who really -- and Carl Hills was there for four days, and I spent all this time with top people of H.U.D., and it is a great opportunity,Ray (to, Mr. Goode) to get in there and meet and talk to some of these people on a one-to-one basis. The working sessions were really terrific, and we really got down to basic, nitty gritty problems, such as how do you do it in Cleveland, and how does Boston solve its problem, and then we talked about, for example, the aging, and it is just amazing how many things we are not doing. So what I am saying in a nutshell that I think it is important that at this Conference of Mayors that we participate, I might say that Harold Rosen and the full City of Miami Beach Commission were there. I am not going to make any other further comment about that. But I do think that one or two persons --- Mayor Clark; Let me tell you what the Senator and I have done representing the County. Of course, we belong also to the Conference of Mayors, but only recently; the last two or three Years' Before that the County was always involved in the National Association of Counties. And the Senator and I equally spent five days a long way from here. a Ve`y tiring trip; 'Leh hours going and ten hours coming. and we found this to be very fruitful. Now if you don't know --and t at not backing arty organigatir n, but we had a tremendous staff at NACo, and it you saw their operatitbti you wouldn't believe this thing was a reality until you got into it. At NACO we are dealing with three thousand counties How tnany members now? Twenty-five hundred. 1 think there are members. They really don't understand the system down here. They think the Mayor is like the Mayor of Cleveland, the Mayor of Detroit, or the Mayor of Chicago, which it is not. This is a Commission Manager, as you have. But we have been abreast of everything that has happened. Now you talk about not getting involved, we are abreast. Mayor Ferret Steve, I am not criticizing; I am just sharing with you a thought. I had a real effective series of meetings. I did learn a lot from Mayor Murray Cohen, the Mayor of St. Paul- Minneapolis, and S did learn a lot from the Mayor of Louisville, Kentucky, and I did learn an awful lot from other Mayors that have very similar problems; that their cities have identical prob- lems as what we are faced with, and I think it is a great oppor- tunity to sit down and see what others are doing; people who are making major decisions that are going to affect our community. For example, I spent a long time with the Secretary of Transporta- tion on this ban that fortunately, Steve, from your work, and Ray's and everybody else, was taken out on the runway out at the airport and the ban on ---but they were still complaining about it. There is a tremendous change --and I'd just like to share one thought. Secretary Milts told me that the emphasis is going to be, as I am sure you are aware of, in rehabilitation and the rent subsidy rather than the purchasing of the houses. Now it all depends on how you approach this. There are all kinds of moneys available. I am sure that your grantsmen, like our grantsmen, are following upon these things, but there are an awful lot of things that I am sure we can improve on. I don't want to belabor this point, but I just wanted to share that. Senator Cain: I would like to suggest that Metro's Mayor and the Commission understand and believe every word that you say; that we cannot be too close to these several important organiza- tions to which we belong, and I have the feeling that in the last three or four years Metro has taken a far greater and more con- structive interest in these institutions than ever before, and I just hope we keep it up and redouble our ability to listen; that's what it is. Not so much talking; it's finding out from the other guy why he is in a pickle. Mayor Ferre: I am glad this really was framed that way, Steve, because it brings me to the main point. I think it is interesting. You and Senator Cain went to Hawaii to the national meeting of counties, but I want to point out that Metropolitan Dade County also has a responsibility --as a matter of fact there are some six hundred thousand people for which you render city services, so in effect you are --the city functions are much larger than Miami, Hialeah and Miami Beach put together, and yet- Senator Caiht Metre* is a practicing Member of the bade County League of Cities, and the League of Cities Of the State Of Florida. We weredt permitted, or asked to be Members until about a year ago, Mayor Clark: or even the United States Conferenc of Mayors, Senator Cain: Yes, sir, we belong to all three of them now, Mayor Ferret The purpose of this meeting is that the City of Miami has some concern of the whole general area of duplication of taxation and receiving a fair share of the benefits available front Dade County. We do this pursuant to the Florida Constitution, Section one. It says in Section 8, properties within municipal- ities shall not be subject to taxation for services rendered by the county exclusively to the benefit of the property owners or residents in unincorporated areas. Based on that, in the Statute Section, Chapter 74-191, Section 8A and B, very specifically goes into that general area, and without reading it it specific- ally puts the burden on the county, and it provides a vehicle which a city can discuss this matter with the county. Mayor Clark: Let me say this. The Vice -Mayor, Beverly Phillips, has been in and around County Government for the last twenty years, and if you remember --I do very well --that the budget of Metropolitan Dade County about '57 was about thirty million dollars. I think the City's at that time was about fifteen to eighteen million --and of course in time we did take on some other responsibilities --but 1 think it can be proved --I know it can be proved --that the taxes that are charged to the cities; that the people are receiving the benefit of those taxes that are charged to them. The State Law also states that you cannot charge certain, or you can't, in taxing districts, in the unincorporated areas -- you have got to charge it straight right across the line, whether you live in the City or the County. Mayor Ferre: If you let me go on --- Mayor Clark: What I am trying to say, Maurice, is that the Manager here can prove that the moneys you say that you are paying in and receiving no substantial benefit from --- Mayor Ferre: I haven't said that, Steve. Mayor Clark: I thought that's what you said. Mayor Ferre: No; I am getting to that. I am going to say that, but let me say it in my words. If you will let me talk for three or four minutes, then I will be quiet. This is an important matter. Mrs, 1hillips: This is, of course, why the League of Cities had the committee last year and has renewed it this year. This is how, as you are well aware, we got this document for the unin- corporated area last year, Mayor Ferre If I might, I just want to point several things out, and then ask the City Manager to elaborate in specific areas why we have asked for this meeting. Let me begin by saying -3- that both from a political point of view and from an adMinistra- tiVe point of VieW I feel very, Very coMfortable and 1 feel very CoMplifiented by being it these chatbers, I Wanted to Start at the very top in the beginning. and that's with Ray Goode, and want tO very emphatically Olblicly state that the City of Miati never had a better friend than Ray Goodeand the very fact that he acknowledged and reCogni2ed this question. and so did it in a budgetary way, I think, is a clear indication of what I am saying, so I want to start off by saying that the City recbgnites and is very grateful for your attitude and your cooperation and that of all of your staff, SeCOndly, our colleague,Steve Clark, comes from the City of Miami and certainly is better acquainted with the relations between the City and Metro than anybody else --and I might also add that -and I think it is important to be just, and although he is not here --that Jack Orz when he was Mayor, was an extremely friendly and helpful advocate at all times, and never turned his back on us, and we were able to discuss these things very, very openly. So from that point of view I want to start off on a very positive note. The citizens and taxpayers of the City of Miami compose somewhat over twenty per cent. of this whole community. I don't know whether that is the same propoportion of the taxes that we pay. I would imagine, prob- ably from the downtown core areA, that Miami's taxes might be slightly more proportionately than the population, but whether it is or it isn't it is somewhere in there. The people of Miami should participate in every benefit that is provided for by the budgets and the bonds of Metropolitan Dade County. Now, we think that there are several areas, which the Manager is going to get into, where we are paying taxes but we are not receiving the benefits, and he is going to discuss this with you specifically. Now, secondly, there is a general area to be discussed, and that is the bond issues. The bond issues, which is over a half a billion dollars, will be paid for by all the people of Dade County, including the City of Miami. And yet I think we can very clearly identify that in no way are we getting the same pro- portionate share for our population. Now, there are several points. One is, you say that's the way it was advertised, and we don't question that. And secondly, we want to say that this County Commission certainly has gone on record on several occasions, and Jack Orr specifically told me that the County Commission was authorized to vote for the implementation of these bonds within reason any way that this County °omission saw fit. Mayor Clark: Well, there is a debt service limitation there that calls for that. Mayor Ferre: The point that I want to make is this. Steve Clark and others, including myself, were very much involved in a series of bond issues, Rose (Mrs. Gordon) and Father Gibson --all of us were involved in a series of City of Miami bond issues. Those bond issues were passed by the voters of Miami. The fact, for example, that we have committed X number of millions of dol- lars to that should not preclude the City of Miami also deriving equal benefit from Metropolitan Dade County's Decade of Progress Bond Issue, It is a problem, because we are going to be paying for those bonds. When you are talking about regional things, such as, for example, a zoo, then obviously that's for the benefit of -4- the whole community, bit when you are talking about a specific park ib a specific region which would be neighborhood ih nature or regional at best, thatla fine and they are entitled to that, but we, Who CoMpOSe twenty per cent of the community, are also entitled to be recognized in that sense, and therefore t think it i8 essential that we have these types of diScusSiOnS and hopefully get into these problems on a specific beside Mrs. Phillips: Exactly what, Maurice. t mean, let's talk specifics; let's talk about projects. / just looked at the bud- get. You have got 19.72 of the population; you pay 19.5 of the taxes; so basically, even with the downtown area, apparently as of last year your tax base was about equal. We are not really talking about that. If we are going to talk Decade of Progress I think we ought to that, because that's a whole different rap than dual taxation, which is, of course, --- Mayor Ferre: We are going to talk about both items separ- ately. Metropolitan Dade County has continually one up to Tallahassee, with very just cause, and told our legislators and our governor and people that we are tired in this area of get- ting the short end of the stick. Where, for example, in road funds in the past traditionally road funds have gone, not on an equal basis --you see, we don't want any more than the 19.7 per cent., but we would like not to have any less, in both the budget end and the bond area. Now, I'll turn it over to Paul. P. W. Andrews, Miami City Manager: Let me say that if there is anyone in this room that appreciates the problem that Ray Goode was faced with in the last two years, at least, in trying to formulate a county budget so that it is reflective of services that are provided in the unincorporated areas versus the services that are available for all of Dade County --he has attempted to do it in two years, taking into consideration the problems that have existed for fifteen years --we certainly have been talking about this area of equity for that long; and I want to emphasize that I appreciate the problems that he faces, and he and I have met on this subject and have both recognized and appreciate that they haven't solved all the problems that they are going to have to solve, and it is going to take some more time and some more energy and more information. However, there are some very ob- vious areas that I think should be addressed in this county bud- get this year to relieve particularly the City of Miami but also some other municipalities of taxes which exist which we believe are a duplication. And I'll take two of them that are very ob- vious. One is the Fire Department. There are --the total budget for the Fire Department is nine million, six hundred and twenty- five thousand -- Mayor Clark: Are these your figures? Mr. Andrews: Yes, this is our budget. There is a distributed cost to the unincorporated service area of eight million three -5- Ii and seventy-seven thousand dollars. That would be about the million and a half dollars that would, the funds budgeted would be coming out of ah area -wide basis. The dity of Miami should not be involved in paying any portion of that one and a half million dollars. there is h0 depeftdehCe factor. We have the number one fire fighting unitand there i8 no reason why the taxpayers of the City of MiaMi should be taxed for fire services; none that / know of. Mayor Clark: Well, Paul, if that be the case, we Can get the same argument out of Miami Beach, Coral Gables, Hialeah, and then you would have no budget at all. That's what it takes to tun that department in the unincorporated area. Mrs. Phillips: I have asked for the ekplanation. Mr. Andrews: The explanation is a --what is needed is a very clear statement as to who are the clients; who are receiving the benefit of the services rendered by the County?‘ Now there is really three areas. One, there -- the County is serving as a municipal government to between six and seven hundred thousand people in the unincorporated area. That's one client. It serves a certain number of municipalities in the fire area. You take each function and determine who your clients are. And then the third area is the total complex, everybody in common, who should be receiving the regional service, if a regional service is pro- vided. So you have to find a way --and I understand Ray's problem -- and we have talked about it --is finding a formula in which you can split these costs in such a way that they are equitable. You will never get down to the last dollars. You will spend more money trying to get to the last dollar, but reasonably. So here is a cost, as far as the City of Miami is concerned, and we are not at this moment in time concerned precisely how you formulate that and how exact that is, except we don't feel that we should be paying anything for fire services. Mrs. Phillips: All right, that's about three hundred thousand dollars, then, that we need to return to you in other types of service, because we obviously can't equalize this any other way. Whether we do or not I don't know at this point, but we are approx- imately about three hundred thousand. Mr. Andrews: I don't know what the figure is at this time. I don't know if it works that simply, because you have to get involved in twenty-seven municipalities, seventeen of which are receiving this service and in the unincorporated area, and when you shift that the saving falls among the other seven or eight municipalities. It might be more than twenty per cent. Now, for public works: There is no distribution to the unincorporated service area of the whole public works function, and that's, if you add up all the costs, workmen's compensation, pension and so forth, you are talking about a ten million dollar, function, of which that cost is distributed throughout the whole county on a area -wide basis. Now the Public Works Department is serving an area of six to seven hundred thousand people in the unincorporated area. They do more municipal functions in that unincorporated area, yet there is no distribution of costs. -6- Mess Phillips: what about your bridges? Mr. Andrews; They should be charged; the basie charge. Mrs. Phillips: That was a municipal function which we took over and which is Costing us X number of dollars. Mr. Andrews: Let's identify the three things we are really talking about. The City of Miami, my advices and recommendations to the City Commission have never put the County in a position where at this point in time is a separate matter and something we must address separately. we haven't said, well, let's take a look at the County -and I'll switch for a minute to parks -- let's look at the Countywide budget for parks, and they are divided into regional parks and community parks. Let's single those out and look at regional parks. We have never said, how much money are you spending at the Greynolds Park; how much money are you spending at Homestead Park, and how much money you are spending over at Crandon Park? That's a regional func- tion, and my family and everyone else can go to any one of those parks, so we have not raised that issue at this time. The issue is one of where the County has a function that is involved in providing services on an municipal level for the unincorporated area, and part of Public Works provides that service in the unin corporated area, yet the taxpayers of the City of Miami, the way this is distributed, are paying for those services in the unincor- porated area. Mayor Clark: Let me interject a thought here --and I under- stand --there is equity on both sides. Now you take the Jackson Memorial Hospital just as an example. I would presume that about 75% of the people who use Jackson live in the City of Miami. Mayor Ferree Seventy-five per cent., even though we are only twenty per cent of the total population. Mayor Clark: Now we have a budget. What is the budget? Mrs. Phillips: Sixty-five million and you are right75% of the patients come from the City of Miami. Mayor Clark: Now there is no one from the unincorporated area that has come up with the idea that, by golly, the City should be paying for the hospital. I don't think they should. I think we took it over in good faith, the County did, back in 1948, so if you weigh one against the other you would find out there is definite equity. Who is going to take care of these people? Mayor Ferre I am glad you brought that up, because I want to speak to that. One of the things that really disturbed about this Boston Conference --and I am sorry that I am going to have to say something; this is really the way I saw it --there was no question about it that there was a breakdown` between the big cities and the other cities; and you know how it broke down' It broke down racially. There was the indigent and the poor and there was the blacks. It just does not happen to be the fault of Cleveland, or Miami, or Philadelphia or Boston or Seattle, but the poor people happen to live in the core city. Now for the administration and the Federal Government to ignore the basic -7-- prettiSe that America is basically an urban community aftd that the poor ttoplt of America live ih the cities is tb ignore the reality of what is going on. the problem is that we ate impacted in these core cities and don't have a hell of a Lot of ways of solving the problems. Now, Houston has a very simple solution to it. tvery time there is flight —and this question of white flight is not unique to Miami, This is all over the country. Houston has a very simple way of doing it. tvery time there is another community that pops up they go out and annex it, Now, there are other areas that don't have that. Cincinnatti has a Very Simple way Of doing it. They have a core city and the core city goes out and imposes an income tax, not just on the people who live in Cincinnatti, but the people who work in the cityt know a lot of people will say that the solution to that is eliminate the City of Miami; merge it with Metropolitan Dade County, and therefore you avoid all the problems. There are, however, those of us, Beverly, who would differ in that ooncept. We believe, rightly or wrongly, and 1 think we speak for the people of Miami who voted that way, that a two-tier form of government is a better way to render service, and I am more convinced than ever after having gone to Boston, because the cities that are really in trouble and really have problems are the ones that have become Federal bureaucracies, and of course the king of them all is New York City. The reason why New York City is such a disaster is because all of the power is central- ized and there is no Manhattan, or Bronx; it is only the City of New York. Because it has become so large and so bureaucratized and so imposing --and I am not in any way saying that's the road that this administration is taking, but it is the way nature im- poses. The nature of the beast is such that you end up in a large bureaucratic entity, and 1 really believe that we have to fight and safeguard integrity of a two-tier form of government. Now we in the City recognize that there are a lot of functions that the City should not have, and perhaps, I think we have given most of them up. If there are others that we have not I'd be perfectly willing to go on --I am sure the Commission would share with me --in a full discussion of those things that perhaps we should be giving up; but on the other hand I think that the County has got to recognize the existence of the City of Miami and the will of the people of Miami that voted for the continuity of this type of government; and this speaks very basically to the areas that Paul Andrews is talking about, and later on -- Mx. Andrews: Let me approach it another way. Let's play a little role here. Let's assume that the six or seven hundred thousand people were incorporated now and it was called Dade City, and received municipal services through that unit of government which is provided through the County tax base. Now the express question comes up. Those people are out there that belong to the municipality and are receiving services like the City of Miami does. Metropolitan Dade County; one of the prin- ciple reasons it was given home rule charters and created the way it is is to provide basically regional services. You have to decide whether hospitals and public welfare and health is a regional function. If you decide that it is, then ies another matter as to how it is distributed-- -8-. mw MW ,MMa- Mayor Clark: There it another reason tor it, too, Paul. The County was unable at that time to even pass an ordinance against a barking dog, and they had to go to the Legislature to do this* I think that wag the fomenting position behind the MOVe for home rule government: and of COUtet it was poli- tically motivated --and I was part of the City of Miami at that time and know all the probleMs we had down there, but I spoke to a lady from Huffal01 New York, the other day. HUffalo is thinking about becoming a metropolitan area, and they say it is just chaotic; they are gOing crazy; they don't know what to do they wanted said, r'll give you both sides of the story. I was the Mayor of the City and am now the Mayor of the County. i said when it first started back in 1957 you could have been shot if you said Metro down at City Hall, and that was for five years, but 1 said over a period of fifteen or sixteen years this thing has mellowed out now and everybody can sit down at a table now rather than correspond through a newspaper or just a plain letter and say I don't want to speak to you because you are a bad guy. I think it may be turning from a position like this. Now what about this, Maurice? We are talking about thirty-two square miles of land. I am the last one. I stand full fledged, and I think my colleagues feel the same way 1 despise the word consolidation. We are running into a real financial situation --you are much more so than we are --because that ten mill limitation is going to grab you some day and you are not going to go anywhere; you are just going to have to be stagnated. The same thing happened to the Fire Departments of the City of North Miami and South Miami. That's one of the reasons Coral Gables got rid of the bus sys- tem and sold it to Metropolitan Dade County after a referendum. We can say, let's get this money back and everything else, but let's don't think about it today. We have got to think about ten years down the road. What are we going to leave to our children? A mish-mash, arguments and everything else. I think that this is the way to express it right here. I think you are entitled to certain things, but as 1 premised my statement to start with, 1 believe that the Manager can absolutely beyond question explain to you that the benefits, or the amount of money that is collected through the ad valorem taxes --ad valorem taxes; that's what we are talking about, right? --not funds from the Federal Government, but ad valorem taxes; that he can express to you in this budget that you are getting your fair share for the City of Miami. Mayor Ferre: You are confident of that? Mayor Clark: I am absolutely confident, because this isn't the first time he has been hit with this. He has been hit with this every year. Mayor Ferre: Well, you are more confident than 1 think the administration is. Mayor Clark: Ray (to Mr. Goode), you can speak for yourself. I'll stand behind you if I can. That's what the whole story is about. I think it is a valid position to take. Mr. Goode: 1 want to say —Paul, if you are finished--- Mr, AndrewSt 1 haVe got a couple of More examplas1 at going to use. but they are repetitive of those. Parks and Aecreation, for example, is roughly ten and a half million dollars operation of the County, ft is divided into two parts, regional and neighborhood parka. The distribution of funds b5 the service area was about five and a quarter million dollars in round figures, half the amount. We don't have the details but we plan to get the details of how the tax dollar is budgeted in that area, because the high revenue that is produced in that operation comes from the regional parks: concessions and other rental facilities, and we feel that there is a disproportionate share of distribution here. If you balance that out perhaps a greater amount of the budget which is supported from tax dollars, and that is the local community parks, should be distributed in these service areas. Another example is the Department of Public Safety. We have gone through the budget, read all the budget materials, and analyzed our own policing effort, and we come up with a far greater distribution than is shown in this budget that should go to the unincorporated service area by some almost nine million dollars difference. We have taken those things out of the budget that we feel are regional in nature. The Crime Lab serves everyone here, but the administrative costs and all the other costs that need to be distributed to the Patrol Section, for example, which is an eighteen million dollar opera- tion in the unincorporated area, when you distribute all those costs you come up closer to twenty-nine million dollars in dis- tributed costs rather than the twenty-one or twenty-two million dollars that is provided in here. Now, in that one function alone that represents in our current tax base about seven tenths of one mill to the taxpayers of the City of Miami, assuming that our figures are all accurate and that they are reasonable, but certainly it is much higher than the twenty-one million, two hundred and one thousand dollars that has been shifted. Mr. Goode: Let me go into several things without taking too much time. of course, these two documents clearly represent two hats of the County Commission; one of them being known as the ---- and the other being the City Council of the unincorporated area. We have to look --let's take on the expenditure side a little bit, there are about three or four different approaches to the kind of service we have, and the complexity is brought about to a great extent because of the financial disparity in the ability of the cities of Dade County to accommodate the various functions and their known preference over the years to have transferred a portion or practically all of their responsibility. So we have some de- partments that we consider to be area -wide without question. The whole field of public transportation, public health and welfare; those are all prime examples. We have others that we think are, perhaps we should never say exclusive, but we are as close to that as we can come, serving the unincorporated area. Building and zoning is a good example. You have allocated a hundred per- cent of that to the unincorporated area, and yet there should be a municipal allocation because they are actually serving a func- tion of inspection and enforcement in the cities, but where in a two hundred, plus, million dollar budget, and we are talking about an amount so insignificant as that, a hundred or two hundred thousand dollars. It is clearly going to be outweighed by some- thing else, as in the example that was made a little while a9o, We do have a building and zoning kind of department but we look -10-' alto/oat eXClUsiVely in the unincorporated area. We al80 haVe the Waste Division operatiOn. and this it one of the reasOnt why some people don't understand how Ut could have such a lOw Millaqe in the unineOrporated area nbW grid be able td operate all of these services as the pity counsel for the unincorporated area. one Of the reasons is that doesn't show up Li the property taxes, and ia it egclusively or just partially in the City? Mr. Andrews: gaclusively. Mr. Goode: So you have got a mill or two in your general millage that is --- Mayor Perre: tXcuso me, So that everybody understands what we are talking about, in Coral Gables and Metropolitan Dade County garbage --you pay a separate fee for that. In the City of Miami you don't pay anything. Mayor Clark: You pay, but you pay in your ad .rem taxes. Mayor Fgrre: You don't pay anything directly, because it is included, if you will let me finish, in your tax bill, as part of the taxes. Now, if we were to turn around and say, we are going to bill you, like Coral Gables and many other cities have that, then there might be, how much; as much as a mill? Mayor Clark: About two and a quarter. Mayor Ferre: Let's keep that in mind. Mr. Goode: You are making my point. The people of the un- incorporated area are paying that, but it isn't showing up in this document on the regular revenue expenditure sheet because it is a proprietary fund, but were it converted to a property tax then they are paying about 1.6 mills or whatever the figure would be additional property tax. Nevertheless they are paying it and nobody else is, so that's the point that has to be kept in mind; and when you add in some of those kinds of programs into the total unincorporated area budget that city is approaching the size of your city in terms of expenditures without question. Then there are other departments, such as --let me mention Public Works, be- cause Paul mentioned that. Last year, if you will go back and find last year's document, you will find that we did sit down and take several hours to go through the Public Works budget to try to determine what the allocation might be to the unincorporated area, hut its functions are so predominantly area -wide, because we have taken over most of the arterial street lighting; we do the bridge maintenance; we do the arterial roads; we do the canal cleaning; we do the mosquito killing, partially --the Public Works Department of the County is a heavy area -wide department. Mayor Clark: Let me finish that up a little bit. You remember, Paul, (Mr. Andrews) when you were sitting with Mr. Reese (M.L.Reese, former City Manager) --and I think Maurice was on the Commission at that time --we turned over our arterial street lighting, the maintenance of all our arterials, we took this out of bur budget, out of the City budget, and turned this over to Metro, so they had to charge somebody; so they tit it all throughout Dade County because everybody uses the streets. Mr. Andrews: tut throughout that whole prOcess, start- ing with traffic some fifteen years ago, which was transferred, all of those --every one of those: and 1 went back and checked them --every one Of those is identified as regional, and follow the charter -- Mayor Clark: 'That's what he is pointing out. These are sizeable eXpenditures. Mr. Andrews: I want to clarify that. We haven't turned over one municipal, what we consider municipal function for Dade County to be concerned with. Mr. Goode: That is perhaps true, but by virtue of the City of Miami's turning over certain of its functions it has drastically impacted everybody else in Dade County. But it brings up a significant point on the question of transfers as to really how they should be handled anyway, but, as an example, what bene- fit did it serve everybody else in Dade County when we took over the jail and stockade? because the percentage of the prisoners being given to us by your Police Department remained the same, in fact it has gone much higher. But that doesn't help anybody else; except that it just makes sense to have a regional correction and rehabilitation program, I think, perhaps the most diffi- cult area in this budget that we have wrestled with is in the fire service. The Public Safety Department, and a couple of other departments that one can argue about, but I think we stand on pretty good ground there, and I certainly want to make any information available to the City to try to help demonstrate that. You may get into a question of what may be, a regional service. There are several services within the Public Safety Department that many cities use. Perhaps the City of Miami doesn't. Now that gets into a serious question of how then you further discriminate as to cities. The Air Force and the Navy, and all these other kinds of things -- they have taken over and they are operating out of that department; the Crime Lab, the Bomb Squad, and a variety of communications activities and others are serving either all on occasion or large numbers of cities, and I think we have to recognize those as regional, and area -wide functions which are available to anybody who wants to. use them. The Fire Department is a very difficult one, and although I don't think we have any legal problems at all, based on prior court decisions, which have declared that our operations can be regional services, and that there is not discrimination --- but nevertheless our fire department is, of course, predominantly serving the unincorporated area and seventeen cities. Now, to an extent, the question, if one wants to allocate one hundred per cent, of the cost of our fire department to the unincorporated area plus seventeen cities, perhaps the only "way to recognize that would be to recognize that fire service district as a dis- trict and make it However, before we could do that the City of Miami., I think, would have to take the lead and with some of its sister cities in convincing some of those municipali- ties that that would be in the best interests of everybody in Dade County, because, for good or for bad, the transfer agreements stipulate that taxing distridts will rot be set up without the concurrence of the municipalities transferring the function. So it is very important. It's a critical thing on the fire depart- tent side. and I think the fire department, because of the nature of its service and the way it is set up is the one that has developed a formula of eight -to -one in the unincorporated area plus those cities. That still has that question of a mil- lion or a million and a hale dollars that is charged to the cities. So there is no way to develop a standard formula for the various county services provided. It is different in fire; it is different in other phases; in parks and wherever) in terms of the extent to which it is regional or the extent to which it is done in the unincorporated area. We have applied generous formulae based on the best information we have, and we have al- ways said at the same time that if anybody could come up with something better we are certainly willing to look at any kind of a different formula. When you get down to a certain point of re- finement. though, 2 would certainly not recommend that we, spend a very large amount of tax dollars to try to bring it down to its finite point. You would have to set up such a sophisticated ac- counting and computerized system with cost centers in a thousand different locations throughout this community and it would, if it ever worked at all, would cost probably millions of dollars to maintain; so we have basically come to the position that if there is a little break for the cities or a little break for the unincorporated areas in a certain area, it is going to pretty well offset itself. And in that regard I think we have made equitable distribution. Mrs. Gordon: Just a question for clarification. Since he said that in the agreements that were made with the municipal- ities they agreed that it would not be set up as a taxing district, what would it take to reverse the thing and give the City of Miami a credit, or a refund, for the services that are being pro- vided within the City of Miami for the City of Miami citizens instead of setting up a taxing district for the other? Mayor Clark: I am not an attorney, but I don't think that would be legal. Mr. Goode: Even if that were legal, Rose, the only way that could be done if we would further up, either our County -wide tillage rate, or some other source, because we aren't budgeting any more money right now than it takes to operate that department. Mrs. Gordon: Yes, but let's recognize that you are spread- ing it thinner. In other words, we would get back a lump, but you wouldn't be paying out that same lump, and the City of Miami would get a percentage of gain by doing it in that manner. Mr. Andrews; In my opinion this matter that Ray has addressed himself to with reference to the seventeen cities and the unincorporated service area and the cost to the cities of providing their own fire services, that is not insurmountable. There is example after example of that throughout the United States. Mrs. Gordon; Of refunding? -13 Mr. Andrews: Not refunding: of providing a tatting disc tritt system in which all seventeen of these cities could be identified and the services which they have rendered and they co t d charge for it. We have Oho Of our staff people. M. iohnsbt y who is the head of our l3udget Research, who set up such a computerised system in Newcastle County in>which there were twenty�sotne separate districts within that shall county that does exactly what we are talking about. Mrs, Gordon; But, Paul, what 1 heard Ray say was =-and I was answering his argument that they had certain agreements within their original take-over of services of other municipali- ties which precluded them doing that, and I say, if you can't do you you can do this, Mrs. Phillips: You know, I have been around here prac tically as long as this government has been in existence, and we went around with this Government Research Council, and one of the things that I am convinced of is that you can make figures do almost anything you want. I don't think we are going to resolve this until several things happen. And the first thing that is going to have to happen is a uniform budgeting system in this County. We have been talking about this with the cities for ten years, and we have talked about it seriously for four or five years. Mel Reese was on a State Committee and it was going to be accomplished there; it's not going to be accomplished. Until you can look at apples and say apples in the City of Miami are the same as they are in North Miami and Dade County; but when you look at waste fees, we know --and I can remember way back when your waste fee, we figured out, was twenty-four dollars a house- hold when ours was twenty-six or twenty-eight; but there were other things that went in; it depends on where your fringe benefits are allocated, and all the rest of it, and until we all start looking at the same figures, I don't think we really can --but what I would suggest is we have talked about this enough; that you all give us a list in writing and we will answer. I want to look at this, because I know that we can come back and say, all right, there is thirty-five per cent. of the traffic lights in Miami, therefore, yes, this kind of thing. And you can say they are regional services. This is true; and we can say to you, O.K. we will take those police communications because this ought to be a regional service. But let's get it on paper, Paul, and Maurice. Give it to us and we will see what we can do, and we will also look at --you know, we paid a little extra for the Virginia Key land in order to get more land to free up the audi- torium. Now we are talking about getting four and a half more acres for you, because the government said, Oh, no, this -- Mayor Terre: By you it means to us, because whatever we do is of benefit also to the whole area. Now, if we could go a little bit into the Decade of Progress Bond issue---_ Mr. Andrews: We are concerned that the way the funds are being programmed, the Decade of Progress Bonds, for which we pay some nineteen per cent. in debt service requirements, it appears that the sum of the projects being accomplished under the Decade of Progress Bond Issue are for a municipal service in the unincorporated areaareafir which we would be taxed. • Mayor Clarke All right, let's be speCifid hOWs Mr. AndreWse All right, parks, parks and recreations There is a whole group of small community parks that are being developed, improVedadjusted, that are part of the Decade of PrOgress Bond issue that ate in the unincorporated area that are on a municipal level of which the City of Miami taxpayers are paying for that debt service. Mayor Clark: But there is a difference here, Paul. You have got to look at both sides. The City of Miami was in- corporated back in 1896 and the City made the county grow; made the county prosper, because of all of the cities growing around the City of Miami, Now you have the park sites. You have every- thing already developed. 1 remember full well --and Mrs. Range was on the Commission at that time --and we would go up to Washington to H.U.D. with a city proposition, and we would get two, three, four hundred thousand dollars to buy a park. That wasn't a park for all the people of Dade County, but that came from the federal government. I believe that Ray can explain to you that these parks are as open to you as a city and a county taxpayer, as they are to anybody in Dade County. That's what we are trying to get at. Mayor Ferre: Look, let's be practical about this thing. Let me get right down --you know it is strange, because what am going to say 1 have heard coming out of your mouth several years ago. Mayor Clark: I am not saying anything else; I just say that the parks that he speaks of are also for the benefit of the people everywhere. Mayor Ferre: Let me say it in your words, if I remember your words. When we turned over the Library System --and at that point you were not the Mayor of Miami --and when we turned over the Water and Sewer Department ---The Water and Sewer Department of the City of Miami, which cost us less than a hundred million dollars, but it was paid for by the citizens of the City of Miami --- Mayor Clark: The users of the water. Mayor Ferre: The people of Miami. Mayor Clark: Not particularly. Mayor Ferre: Now that asset was turned over to Metropolitan Dade County, and nobody has objected to it, but we didn't get any compensation for it. We didn't say, all right, we are going to turn over an asset that is worth five hundred million dollars to replace now and say, we want to get paid for it. All we want is justice. All we want is what's right. We don't want any more, but we don't want any less. Now it seems to me --and you know just as well as 1 do --and you were there, and I voted for it, and you offered it, and you were supporting it. We turned over the Library System of the City of Miami to Metropolitan Dade County, and there were some basic agreements that we came to. One of the ALMINNI111101111111111111MININIMMIPOPIRMOPIIIPPO basic agreements W'as that the City of Miami Would be able tt select three of the nine Meer board, 4e turned otter bur asset to Metropolitan Bade County and there Were some basic agreeMents. t think -'it is just a strong belief of mine that it is patently unfair to, jUst a few years later, try to change the prethise of what we all agreed on, Mayor Clark: Well, th is under considerat en now. Mrs. Phillips: you never appointed them anyway. t think you forgot your agreement. But that's the least of the problems. Mayor Ferret No, it isn't, because it is indicative of the type of thing that we are trying to bring up here today. It is a matter of the principle of it. And it isn't just appointing three members of the Lfbrafy Board; it means dollars and cents to the citizens of the City of Miami, which the three of us here ate elected to represent. And all I am saying --all we want here is, we want justice. We pay twenty per cent. of the taxes and we want to get twenty per cent, --within reason -I am not saying it has to be exact, but I am saying that I don't think that the citizens of Miami should be paying taxes to render services to people that don't live in the City of Miami unless they are regional in nature. And we accept things as the zoo, as rapid transit. I want to tell you something; that I have gone way out on a limb in the support of rapid transit and 1 have gone out around this community when people are out attacking it and trying to create problems, and if I do say so --I hope you will forgive my immodesty -- I think that I have been an important part in the Latin community in keeping as much-- and I am telling you that if you were to put this to a vote in the Latin Community and some parts of the City of Miami I think you would get a 90% turn -down on it, or 80%, or a very significant percentage; and I have tried --because I be- lieve in it; I think it is the right thing to do for all of us really to try to cooperate and help in areas of regional things. But on the other side -- Mayor Clark: Would you go through it there, so that we can see just where you would think it would not be regional in nature. Mayor Ferre: I want to say --and I am glad we are all here together. I am not speaking for Maurice Ferre and I am not speak- ing as the Mayor of Miami. I think I'arn speaking for the City of Miami. I am speaking for Rose Gordon. She is speaking for her- self, and she is speaking for me; and Theodore Gibson, and the two that are not here, one because he is sick in bed and the other one because he is out of the country. Paul and I are speaking for the administration, and I hope we are speaking for the people who are residents. Mx. Andrews: The bond issue is really, then, divided in certain areas into two parts. One, where there are capital improvements being made in our judgment at a municipal level, and the obvious area is the area of the parks there. I don't agree with you, Mayor (to Mayor Clark) that those could be con- sidered as parks that everybody could visit. They are neighbor- hood parks, and you try to confine them to neighborhood parks. You don't want people from all over the county coming into the neighborhood to use a neighborhood park. There are parkin prob ema, and everything else. asaobiated with it. It is there for that particular community, just as bur neighborhood parka are developed in the City of Miatti. Mayor Clark: what coo you estimate is the ctist of those community parks Mr. Andrews: 1 don't have an estimate, but they are iden- tified. Mayor Ferre: Well, with seventy-five million dollars here in the bond -issue, and I don't know how much of that is regional, and how much is-= Mr. Andrews: We have to identify that. Mayor Ferre: How about sewers? Mayor Clark: don't know what is. Well, if that is not regional in nature I Mayor Ferre: I am just bringing that whether it goes to a specific neighborhood --- of Miami and the citizens of Miami have paid lines, and now if you are telling me that you sewer lines --- up. I d n't know because the City for their sewer are going to put Mrs. Phillips: No; that's entirely the capacity of the plant, and Miami Beach is going to be the big benefitor from that. Mr. Goode: You know, the unincorporated area made 'a thirty-two million dollar cash contribution to the Authority --- Mr. Andrews: Now, the regional parks, using that as an illustration of all of the bond issues. You are developing ad- ditional regional parks throughout the county, and I think be- cause the City of Miami got involved in its own thirty-nine million dollars parks for people bond program there was a feel- ing that there was no need to develop any parks in the City of Miami; that we would do it ourselves, but that shouldn't be so. We are spending the taxpayers' dollars in the City of Miami and really not receiving the kind of benefits within the City, even in terms of a regional park. Mayor Clark: How much of that issue have you spent? Mr, Andrews: Of the thirty-nine million?_ Mayor Clark: Yes. Mr. Andrews; About seventeen to eighteen million. Now the other big portion of that still remains, and this Thursday hopefully the Commission will be allocating more money --it will be about four and a half million dollars --for the development of Bayfront Park. on also. Mayor Ferre; And we have got that F.E.C. thing to move Mr, Andr`et;rs.: Now we ate pretty close to having spent all the money in the parks for people bond program. The important thing is that we feel that some of these proiects should be carried on in the City of Miami., we would hope, through the sale of the park bonds, that you would say to the City of Miami after we have presented certain information to you, that you are going to make a contribution of three, four or five million dollars out of that bond issue that we can control and spend for the regional kind in the city. Mayor Clark: That's not inconceivable. Is it, Ray? Mrs. Gordon: It might be very necessary, because when we go to condemnation on a certain piece of land we may find ourselves a little short. It's nice to hear you say that. Mayor Clark: I am not speaking for my colleagues. I say it is not inconceivable. I think it makes good sense. Mr. Andrews: Now, another area that Ray and I have talk- ed about --and I'll let him advance the proposal in this area, and see what the City Commission thinks. Using as another illustration of an area of inequity,we have gone about building bikeway paths in the City, and perhaps we were the first, if not the second, governmental agency in Dade County to build bike paths. Now the County has come up with a very fine bike -way path for Dade County. We are building our bicycle Laths with taxpayers' moneys in the City of Miami, yet the County has a program of building bike -way paths in the unincorporated area. They have got two major projects that they are going to carry out. One is the nine miles of bikeway on Old Cutler, and the other one is going to connect from there going east, I believe. There are two projects, anyway, of about a half million dollars Ray and I have talked about this, and we have been trying to formulate how can we get some of the County money spent in the City of Miami for bikeway paths? This is coming out of the Decade of Progress Bond Issue. Mayor Ferree That's a perfect example of the principle that we are talking about. Mrs. Phillips: What's ----(inaudible) Is that all in the County? Mr. Goode: Well, that is an example where the Commission has already said that we should, first of all, assuming that the municipal bike path plans are coordinated and tie in with the over-all County -wide bike plan, that one or more alternative formulae should be developed for the cost sharing of the bicycle paths within the municipalities, up to a million and a half -- (balance of statement inaudible) Mayor Ferre: That's a good case in point of exactly what we are talking about. I don't think it would be fair for the people of the City of Miami to pay for the bond issue in Miami to put in bikeways, and then for the people of Miami to also pay for metropolitan Dade County to put in bikeways and not get any of those moneys for bikeways in the City of Miami; for Metro to assume that, you have got your own bikeways, so what do you need ours for? , Mayor Clark: that bond money Over Mayor Fevre the community? Mayor Clark: 1' 1i. tell yott il et, Mauride, 1 you turd we will build them ail over the city. Then will yott Spread the cost throughout We would have to. And we will operate them. Mayor Ferret Please dont misunderstand -- Mayor Clarke You know, Maurice, a strange thing about that new bikeway down on Cutler Road that you have mentioned here. I See automobiles that beara ten license tag all parked around Cocopium Plaza; just saturated. That's where they get on the bike path, and they take off south and then they come back. They have those bike racks in the back of their cars. There are not only people of the County using it; there are people from other counties using it, and all through Coral Gables, and actually that all goes through Coral Gables, most of it. Mr. Goode: And the new one built, you see, specifically connects the entrance to South Miami,Fascell Park. Mayor Ferre: You are not recommending that we merge Metro with Broward County, now, are you? Mayor Clark: County people -- No, I say that other people than just Mr. Goode: I don't think we have any argument on the bike path question. Mayor Clark: If you want to turn that over to us we will operate it. Mayon Ferre: All right, but if you accept that as a basic principle, then could you accept that as a basic principle for other things other than bikes? Mayor Clark: That's a starter. Mr. Goode: The things that lend themselves to regional- ization, yes. Bikeways certainly should. If everybody ties in together you can develop a new transportation network. That was the concept of us having a coordinated County -wide plan. Reverend Gibson: I want to make a few observations. I would hope that the admonition I am giving right now that I would hope that both governmentswillconsider the busi- ness of the people sufficiently important that all of the Com- missioners and the administrative people take time out to come sit down and talk. That's number one; and there are an awful lot of implications in that. I don't want to go into that now. The second thing is, I saw a program this morning that 1 want to share with you. From what I heard here there is something to be had out of that program. The Senator froth Hawaii was on the Today Program and they went on to talk about, why is it that Hawaii is so much different to all the other states, and the Senator said sothething like this wand l at not going to say. who it refers to but you search your conscience after 1 tell the story 'the Senator said something like this: He said, you know, Hawaii is unlike all of the other states in that an otter, whe1mit g majority of political figures and people running the government are, or haVe ,s Japanese background. He said Hawaii is really the melting pot of the Onited States of America. He said, you know, when the people in Houston don't like to litre in HbistOt they just move further out --there is so much land that they trove further out= just move out, flut he said that in Hawaii when we get so impact in Hawaii we don't have any land to move on --and I hope if we hear nothing else this horning those two things will haunt tts today. Mr. Goode I think we would be ready to respond to any of your requests for information- --(inaudible) Mr. Andrews: I think the County now particularly needs to address itself more fully than before to the whole concept of what constitutes regional services in the County and muni- cipal services, and seriously be thinking about taxing districts. I think you need to clarify neighborhoods and geographical areas in the county where a taxing district concept can work, and then make up budgets for those and revenues that flow from those in terms of utility taxes, ad valorem taxes, cigarette taxes for those services that are rendered on a municipal basis and on a regional basis. Mayor Clark: We have started that, Paul. Mr. Andrews: I know, but I think we ought to carry that further. Senator Cain: I want to express appreciation for my hav- ing had the good fortune to be here. (inaudible), but'I go on to say that when in the judgment of reasonable people it works; when the time comes that it no longer works, then some- thing has got to be done about that, and we have gotten close to this subject today. When I came here fifteen or seventeen years ago there were twenty-seven municipalities and there still are. The two-tier government is working today better, and better in some, and a damn site worse in others. All of this is predicated in a direction --I don't know who is going to do it --but a real evaluation of where what you are talking about, Mr. Mayor, makes sense and where it doesn't. Phen I would like to say to my political leader that as a result of having been in an intimate situation with him in that melting pot, I have grown to know him better and I admire him more largely. One of the few dif- ferences I have with my political leader is that I am not as apprehensive about the use of some words as he is, although I can understand his apprehension; . his background to some extent is different than mine, but I am not willing to eliminate from the dictionary any word that has any potential use. There are three words that we haven't spelled out very much this morning, and probably won't for quite a while, but by gad we are going to have to do it; to understand them as we never tried to understand them before; on what does unification, what does unify mean: Where and under what circumstances should it be employed as 8h inatrument of good government? The same thing about merger. The sate thing about consolidation. We no more can live ton years from now like we are living now, though we are doing better all the time. We have got to face some of these Crushingly agonizing questions and problems and do it with the best of good grace and fine tanners.that's why 1 think. Mr. Mayor, 1 am so pleased to have been here this morning, and generated from What you hatre said and what the Mayor has said, I want to join with Mrs. Phillips and this lovely lady on my left, Mrs. Oster1e, and everybody else, in continuing these discussions. The only weakness here this morning is that we are talking about two entities of twenty-eight. I guess that's totally proper, but there are twenty-six others where in one way or another these conversations need to unfold. Mayor Ferre: But there are almost four hundred thousand people who live in this particular entity. I would like to con- cur in your words, and thank you, and say this; that there can only be two ways to eventually approach this. Ole is to merge and consolidate and unite. The other is to further define and perfect the two tier form of government; by either expanding it somehow by perhaps a better definition of what the second tier can do; but we cannot really get to that definition unless we have equity in taxation. So, where we are coming from, from our side is we want tax equity we want what we think was started by Ray Goode, and we want to take that philosophy. If it's good you accept the principle and provide for it. Then you logically should accept that same basic principle expanded to every other form of govern- ment, and the logical conclusion, in my opinion, therefore, is that we inevitably must either get to a complete merger or to a taxing district form where we provide a forum so that each area can make a decision as to what they want to pay for what services. Senator Cain: Forgive me for saying this, but this is a very refreshing conversation, and I hope we haven't hear the last of it. Mr. Andrews: One more thought I want to leave you with. This resolution that you adopted in May of this year, the City Commission, was the initiation of a process following the consti- tution and the state statutes which provide that after the adoption of.that resolution, and it having been transmitted,and was, to the county, that they have nine days to respond. Now I know you are not going to hold them to the nine days.' The point I want to get across at this time is that we did this in suffi- cient time so that there would be some results of this effort so they could be reflected in this year's millage assessment to the total county so some adjustment can be made. If this process=of uncovering these areas and the City supplying the County with more information continues, we might abridge that. I want you just to be aware of that. Mayor Ferre; Let me be very specific --and I don't want anybody to take this as disrespect --the City Manager is not threatening Metropolitan Dade County, but I want you to he very clear that we are following a legal process. The Meeting was adjourned at 10;35 o'clock A.M. H. D, SOUTHERN CITY CLERK CITY OF MIAMI, FLORIDA