HomeMy WebLinkAboutCC 1976-04-15 MinutesCITY OF MIAMI
COMMISSIQN
MINUTES
OF MEETING HELD ON April 15, 1976
PREPARED BY THE OFFICE OF THE CITY CLERK
CITY HALL
MINUTES OF SPECIAL MEETING OF THE
CITY COMMISSION OF MIAMI, FLORIDA
ON THE 15TH DAY OF APRIL, 1976, THE CITY COMMISSION OF
�11AMI,_ LORIDA MET AT ITS REGULAR MEETING PLACE IN THE CITY
TALL, 3 00 PAN AMERICAN DRIVE, MIAMI, FLORIDA IN SPECIAL SESSION
THE t�EETING WAS CALLED TO ORDER AT 2;05 FLORIDA', O'CLOCK
BY MAYOR I''AURICE A. FERRE WITH THE FOLLOWING MEMBERS OF THE
COMMISSION FOUND TO BE PRESENT:
COMMISSIONER f1ANOLO REBOSO
COMMISSIONER (REV.) TH ODORE R. GIBSON
COMMISSIONER J. , VLUMMER, .JR ,
VICE -MAYOR ROSE GORDON
MAYOR MAURICE A. FERRE
ALSO PRESENT:
PJx. W. ANDREWS, CITY MANAGER
A. P. LROUCH ASSISTANT CITY MANAGER
JOHN S. LLOYD, CITY ATTORNEY
H. D. SOUTHERN, CITY CLERK_
AN INVOCATION WAS DELIVERED BY REVEREND GIBSON WHO THEN
LED THOSE PRESENT IN A PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE TO THE FLAG,
Mayor Ferre recognized some visiting dignitaries from Caracas, Venezuela.
JOSEPH GRASSI:
Mayor Ferre: Ladies and gentlemen first of all, as I previously said, we are very
happy and honored to have a college from the beautiful city of Caracas with us. This
is a special meeting for the purpose of interviewing three candidates for the job of
City Manager. It is my pleasure to welcome to Miami Mr. Joseph R. Grassie who is one
of the candidates. Mr. Grassie we have been spending an hour and five minutes the way
it has been running. ON one case we wend slightly over that, with the previous two
candidates that we talked to. The format that we are going to use, that we have used,
is, we will listen to you for about 15 minutes, more or less, if you wish, then after
that we have a series of questions that have been recommended be asked by the Arthur
D. Little Company and from that we will expand, the commission will ask you individually
the various questions that they have an interest.
Why don't you tell us about yourself and we will take it from there?
Mr. Joseph R. Grassie: Thank you Mr. Mayor and members of the City Commission.
With any luck I won't take full fifteen minutes and you will have a chance to ask questions
sooner than that. I have had a chance to talk with a number of people in the last two days
who are quite knowledgeable about the City of Miami and in that process I have had a
chance to come away with a pretty clear impression. One of my principle impressions is
that in the next two years, the City of Miami is likely to face very difficult choices,
and some very tough decisions. I am not going to attempt to recount for you all of the
things I have done, Rather what I would like to do is talk about two or three things which
I think may be particularly pertinent to the kind of decisions you are going to have to make
in the next two years. The first of these has to do with my background and what I would call
organizational analysis and reorganization. One of the things that I consider to be an
advantage in some of my past experience is the 10 years I spent doing exactly that. Analyzing
governmental organizations, local governments, state governments and foreign governments
in Latin America, and proposing solutions. That is an experience different than the kind of
strict management experience that you get in an operating situation, It has the disadvantage
that it is less immediate in the sense that you do not have to carry through your own
recommendations but it does have the decided advantage in terms of training for an admin-
istrator, that it sharpens you to the process of analyzing organizations, evaluating
individuals, and proposing specific solutions, I think that that sort of background when
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you bring it to a real life operating situation is going to be particularly important
for whomever you select as your city manager. Because one of the things that l sense
from the conversations I have had with the people knowledgeable about Miatni is that
in fact you are embarking on a process of significant realignment of some of your
priorities and consequently of the some of the ways you have done business in the
past. I think this is going to be of particular importance to you.
Let me touch on a second area. I characterize this as the area of labor relations
and affirmative action. I come now from the State of Michigan,, --Michigan and Wisconsin
.are the two states in the United States that ate farthest along in this difficult pro,-
cess of adjusting the public service to the kinds of unionization and labor relations
problems that we have encountered in the private sector for the last 30 or 40 years.
Only in the last 10 years has the public sector really experienced anything like signi-
ficant conflict in labor relations. I have some reason to believe that the kind of
experience that we have had in Michigan simply is a few years ahead of the sort of thing
that is facing most states in this country and the kind of problems that we have with
compulsory arbitration for example, with the umpire in mediation services, with municipal
employee strikes, are the sorts of things that most cities at are going to have to be
ready for, if not going to experience.
I'll point up simply two or three brief examples, we have had the experience of
going through a municipal strike in the last year and half, in which all of the non-
uniformed employees were out on strike and the city continued necessary operations for
a period of three weeks. Did so successfully and came to a negotiated settlement with
its employees after that experience.
Let me point up a very different aspect of this, and this gets more toward what
I would call the affirmative action side of this inter -related problem of employee
relations and affirmative action. Our city has been under a consent decree as it applies
to the fire service for a year and half. We, as has been the case, tentatively with Miami,
have been given 5 years to comply. Our city through some, what I think is an effective
program, has gone out to re -do completely its testing service and has within a period
of one and a half years met its minority hiring goal under that consent decree for the
fire service.
There are a number of other examples in this total area of affirmative action
that are listed in a sheet along with my resume, so I will not go over those again,
but I simply do want to point out to you that I have had more than the ususal level
of experience, I have written professional article in this area, and I am chairman of
the National ICMA committee on labor relations.
The third and last area I want to touch on briefly, is the are of financial
analysis, control and forecasting. I want to start by emphasizing that I am not talking
about an accounting function, or even a budget administration function. Iam talking about
financial planning in a broader sense which places emphasis on establishing early -on
what your goals should be, at a policy level, at your level and then doing the kind of
forecasting of your financial position, so that the kinds of decisions that you are making
today are made within the context of what you know is going to happen to you at least one,
and preferably two years from now. Let me give you a concrete example. When we and I am
sure you are in the same process, when we prepare, right now, our FY '77 budget, that is
for the next fiscal year, we not only present to our city commission a plan of expenditure
and a statement of expected revenues, we also give them a forecast of where the city is
going to be the following fiscal year, assuming that the city commission adopts the
kind of budget that is being presented to you. One of the things that you can get from
this kind of process, is that you are being asked to make short -run decisions, that is,
decisions about taxing between now and the 1st of July, for that next year, you are asked
to make those decisions in the context of what you know is going to happen to you the
following year. In fact, the cumulative effect of the decisions that you make for this
next budget may be such that you would change you mind if you understood what the con-
sequences were for you only one year further down the road.
I won't touch on some of the specific areas that I detect from my conversations
with people knowledgeable about your situation, are going to be real problems for you
-----I am thinking of things like pension system funding, possibly the data processing
system, and a number of other things. I simply don't know enough specifically to make
comment on those. I do want to say that when you get into the question of forecasting
your financial situation, one of the most important elements is that you not only analyze
the obvious things, that is, your know resources, and your necessary expenditures, that
you also look at your options, so that in fact you have presented to the policy body, to
the city commission, the alternatives that are available to it, under state law, and in
some cases, requiring changes in state law, but under existing circumstances, present to
them all the of the alternatives, so that the kinds of choices that are made in the
short run, represent a conscious choice and not simply a choice by default,
Well, Mr, Mayor I could go on, but rather than do so, if that seems to be a
sufficient high -light of some of the principle parts, that I think you would creed to
be concerned with, I would be happy to take any questions you might with to direct,
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Mayor Ferret We haven't gotten to the bottom of any of these questions with
the previous two candidates so there are eleven questions here but sometimes they
ate overlapping so We will just start and see which way it takes us.
In your previous job, what were some of the things that you gave most importance
to that you spent most of your time on during the work week, what did you dedicate the
majority of your time to?
Mr. Grassiet I have had occasion, as I am sure you have to give talks to college
classes, high school classes, and one of the things they ask is what does a City Manager
do. And in the process of trying to answer that question, I have actually analyzed what
I do with my time. I find that the single most important thing that I do in terms of time,
is dealing with the top level administrative staff of the city. That may seem like a
foregone conclusion, but the point I want to make is that my emphasis is on what is
popularly called team -management these days. My emphasis is on the process of putting
together the resources and the people within an organizational structure so that they
can get a stated job accomplished. In the process of doing that way, operating that
way, and depending on teams which are put together for specific purposes, one of the
things that Ifind is that I spend a lot of time in that team effort, so that I end
up being an active participant in a 3,4,5 member team process. That takes a lot of time.
I think is time well spent. I would say that may take as much as, that and departmental
review, with departmental administrators, may take as much as 40% of my time.
Mayor Ferre: What are some of the things in your job you feel you have done
particularly well? What have you excelled at. What do you think is your strength?
Mr. Grassie: Well that has to reflect of course the problems of the job that I now
have. It would not necessarily be particurlarly germane to your situation. It happened
to be what I consider a political problem. The city that I am now with, had a reputation
for a great deal of instability in the job of the city manager. They changed on the average
over 30 years, --they changed every 19 months. The city was considered to be very political
the manager was very often, ---
Mayor FErre:
by our President,
Excuse the interruption, but I just can't resist, if we can judge
I imagine your statement is very accurate.
Mr. Grassie: I won't comment on that, but Mr. Mayor, but the principle problem
in the community when I went there was basically the problem of trying to establish
administrative continuity and political stability. Now that is not a problem which
is typical to most manager cities, but that is what I had to deal with. I think,( I
have been there 7 years now), it is the longest any manager has ever been in Grand
Rapids, and Grand Rapids has had a city manager charter since 1916, one of the first
in the country. I think we have done a good job of lending creditability to the basic
concept of the city council plan, we have elevated the stature of government in the
eyes of the citizen and I think that most groups in the community and the news media
have concluded that the basis administration is headed in the right direction.
Mayor Ferre: Tell us about Grand Rapids. How large a city is it, what is the
size of the police department, how many employees do you have. What is the newspaper
and how strong are they. Tell us a little bit about Grand Rapids.
Mr. Grassie: Yes, our city is a city of 200 thousand, it is a central city, a
core city if you wish, we have suburban communities which add another 125 thousand
to the metropolitan area, we have 2,000 permanent employees, we fluctuate between
400 and now with SETA employment almost 2,000 seasonal or temporary employees, that is
not a typical situation. Normally our seasonal employment during the summertime is
about 400, our annual budget, including the capital budget is 70 million dollars, including
the capital budget. That is not strictly the operating budget.
Mayor Ferre; Ours is under a hundred million and I was saying you guys are doing
pretty good for a community of 200 thousand, we are almost twice that.
Mr, Grassie: This includes the water and sewer utility for example,
Mayor Ferre; That is under the city? You render that service for the whole county?
Mr, Grassie; We render that service for all the metropolitan area. It is not
the county because the county includes some rural area but, yes, all of the Metropolitan
area. We also for exampie run a metropolitan bus system, we provide a lot of metro-
politan services to other communities on a contract basis. We for example provide air
pollution, noize pollution control, they buy those services from the central city. We
have, in the last 5 years developed many cooperative arrangements where the core city,
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the ceiittal city actuall performs services for sutburban communities and does to to
their satis.factioi.
Mayor Ferre: What kind of Staff do you have as the Manager► Do you have 5 people
reporting to you, or 20 people,wh0 ate they, do you pick them, or did you itheret them
and you have been there for 7 years.
Mr, Grassie: Yes, 7 years,
Mayor Ferret With the instability that you ate talking about how did you go about
stabilizing. You said your big achievement, as I ehard it, stabilizing the political
aspect of the job and the continuity, You have been there for 7 years. How did you
stabilize it? How do you say you spend 40% of your time? Departmental review and
staff, how do you relate the staff? Who are the people who report to you? How many
department heads report direct to you?
Mr.Grassie: The stabilizing process consisted not in stabilizing the administration,
but in stabilizing the position of the city manager in relationship to the political
process. That was where the instability was. So really it was my relationships with
the political process if you wish, with a political body and their satisfaction I
suppose, with the way the way the city was being administered which constituted the
basic change. It is a question of confidence more than anything else.
Mayor Ferre: How many commissioners do you have in Grand Rapids?
Mr. Grassie: Seven, including the Mayor who is selected at large. The commissioners
are elected by ward. If I could get back to your initial question then, you asked about
department heads, our department heads are different from your situation here, are
covered by civil service. That means that the Manager appoints department heads but
he doesn't remove them without a civil service process. They don't serve at the will
of the manager.
Mayor Ferre: It is kind of rough for a manager to run a city that way.
Mr. Grassie: That is right.
Mayor Ferre: How did you do it?
Mr. Grassie: Well, two things, oneI have reorganized enough so that we have
been able to create opportunities for change but more importantly, being there 7
years, just the normal process of things, I have now appointed more than half of
the department heads.
Mayor Ferre: How many department heads to you have?
Mr. Grassie: That is what I started to tell you, I am embarrassed to say because
I have 27.
Mayor Ferre:They all report to you?
Mr. Grassie: Yes. That sound pretty bad, I realize. And that is maybe one
reason why I spend 40% of my time talking to department heads, but it is something
I have don consciously, because in the situation that I had, that I felt that I had
to have personal contact with enough people at the departmental level, so that I could
have the kind of impact that I thought was necessary. Now, in giving you this answer, I
am fully aware of the fact that you have had a reorganization study that Booz Allen
and Hamilton has recommended 5 super positions for management, I am aware of all of that,
I guess I am still telling you that my approach in that situation has been to deal personally
with enough people in the organization so that I had confidence that I had first hand
knowledge of what was going on.
Mayor Ferre; Would you say then that you don't believe in middle management
concept, directly betwen you and the guys out there on the firing line?
Mr. Grassie: No, on the contrary. In my situation I believe in it, Where I am now
I believe in it. I can't tell you that is right for Miami, not until I see exactly
.what your situation is,
Mayor Ferre; Well, you believe in it, how come you have 27, line people reporting
directly to you. Wouldn't you structure it so you could create some staff and develop
some people that you would have an orderly transition should you take another job, like
the city manager of Miami? What is going to happen to the stability and continuity
of Grand Rapids if you have 27 people directly to you, and you leave?
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Mr. Grassie: There is nothing particularly unstable about having 27 department
heads. The question is, whether not you have a manger who can manage 27 people,
Mayor Ferre: If you work 40 hours a week and you have 27 people report to you
and you gave just a little bit of time.
Mr. Grassie: Mr. Mayor I don't work 40 hours a week,
Mayor Ferret How many hours a week do you work?
Mr Grassie: Normally it is 8 to 7, or 8 to 8 o'clock.
Mayor Ferre: Y0u work every day from 8 in the morning to 7.
Mr. Grassie: I don't expect to do that forever,
Mayor Ferre: But you have done it for the last 7 years.
Mr. Grassie: Pretty much.
Mayor Ferre: I would imagine you would have to put in that type of hours
to meet with 27 people effectively during the course of a week.
Mr. Grassie: It is a choice. As I say I am not proud of it. I recognize what the
pitfalls are, I did it consciously, I have done it because I have felt that is the way
I could have the kind of impact directly on departmental policy that I thought was necessary.
Mayor Ferre: For 7 years?
Mr. Grassie: For 7 years. If you ask me whether I would continue to do that for
the next 5 years, I guess the answer would probably be no. I would hope to work out
of that sort of situation, but with the civil service system, it has taken me almost
7 years to get the cadre of department heads that I needed. That has been part of the
problem .
Mayor Ferre: Did you have to choose them from civil service? You said that in
7 years you have moved half, half of 27 is 13. 0f the 14 or 15 you have moved in,
how many were from outside the city and how many came up from the ranks.
Mr. Grassie: Three quarters of them were from outside the city.
Mayor Ferre: How did you get them?
Mr. Grassie: Most of them I recruited personally.
Mayor Ferre: How?
Mr. Grassie:Well,
Mayor Ferre: Advertise like we do? People you knew?
Mr. Grassie: Yes, mostly through advertisements, but basically through contacts
in the profession. You use every device that is available. Take a specific example
say, you were recruiting for a city engineer. You would go to every source, private,
locally, publicly, professional organizations, and the obvious professional journal
advertising that is available. A lot of it depends on personally convincing the right
kind of person, that he wants to work for the city,
Mayor Ferre; Which is your largest department?
Mr. Grassie: In dollars?
Mayor Ferre; Either way.
Mr. Grassie; In dollars, it is the police department.
Mayor Ferre; And in people?
Mr Grassie; The parks department.
Mayor Ferte:Well tell us about the police depattthent, What size is it, and
does the chief tepott ditectly to you?
Mr. Gra3siet Yet,
Mayor Ferret Did you choose the Chief?
Mr, Grassier Yes.
Mayor Ferrer When was that?
Mt. Grassier That was one of my first appointments, in.1970.
Mayor Ferret Was it from within the ranks?
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Mr. Grassie: Yes. He was a major in the department.
Mayor Ferre: He has been there ever since?
Mr. Grassie: Yes, ever since.
Mayor Ferre: What size department?
Mr. Grassie: We have 325 sworn officers, another 95 support civilian positions
Mayor Ferre: I notice in your statement that you have taken 30 complaints of the
Michigan civil rights commission and you have only been found technically at fault
once. Did you take the cases to the civil rights commission or were you taken to
the civil rights commission?
Mr. Grassie: Basically the complaints were against the city. They were basically
employment complaints.
Mayor Ferre: You defended them and only lost one?
Mr. Grassie: Yes. An applicant feels he was not treated fairly, it is very
easy to file a complaint in Michigan, very easy.
Mayor Ferre: I notice you say here that in your labor negotiations and this
is I think a very important statement and I hope we can develop this a little bit.
You said that your labor negotiations strategy designed to gain concessions from the
unionized employees on provisions having an imortant impact on affirmative action.
As I read this, what you are saying is as you negotiated contracts you also were able
to bring out affirmative action provisions in those contracts that were implemented
into the final contractural agreement. Is that what that says?
Mr. Grassie: What that says is that we have consciously attempted that and we
have had some modest success.
Mayor Ferre:That is exactly the point I am trying to bring out. Are you saying
that you attempted it or are you saying you didn't? There is a big difference.
Mr. Grassie: I am saying that we have attempted it, and I recognize the difference,
---I am saying we attempted it once when we negotiated our contract two years ago, we
gained some significant concessions.
Mayor Ferre; Why don't you elaborate on that.
Mr. Grassie: Those concessions costs money .
Mayor Ferre: Was that with any particular department?
Mr, Grassie: No, our employees are organized to three basic groups, the fire-
fighters, the police FOP, and the what we call the general employees union, We have
attempted this with all three, ---the basic concession that we have gained have been
in the area of job descriptions, how do you test for, and write the qualifications for
jobs. And in these areas we have been able to get the unions to be cooperative with us,
in attempting to achieve affirmative purpose. I don't want to characterize our employees
as being completely negative about this, They are not.
Mayor Ferre; What percentage of minority do you have in Grand Rapids? A total
of 200 thousand people in the city, what percentage of minority?
Mr. Grassie: By your standards quite small. Our black population is 12% and
we have 1 1/2% of native American, and of Latin surname,
Mayor Ferret It is a relative small, it is not a major problem in Grand Rapids.
Mr. Grassie: Grand Rapids did go through as an aftermath of the Detroit riots,
did go through urban riots in 1967 and 68, That is something that has not been
experienced by a lot of communities in this state, so by those standards, our
problems have been serious, yes.
Mayor Ferre:I see. Well, by problems, perhaps that is a bad choice of words,
I don't mean problems in a riot sense, I mean that the pressures of affirmative
action are not as an important a role of the manager as they are in a community
like Miami where you have 53% Spanish surname and 20% blacks.
Mr. Grassie: I would think that the political pressure, the population pressure
citizen pressure, in Miami must be significantly greater. I would also guess that we
have been about a solution longer in Michigan, we have been work at a solution longer
than possibly you have even in spite of the pressures.
Mayor Ferre: Take your police department. You have 13% black population, what
is the black population of your police department, sworn officers?
Mr. Grassie: Right now it is 8.7% as I best recall.
Mayor Ferre: How about in your fire department?
Mr. Grassie: Well, our fire department is the department which is covered by
the consent decree, you remember, we are at almost 13%.
Mayor Ferre: So you have reached the consent -
Mr. Grassie: Yes.
Mayor Ferre: And this is the 2nd or 3rd year?
Mr. Grassie: We met that goal in a year an a half.
Mayor Ferre: How did you do that?
it was a 5 year consent decree?
Mr. Grassie: By hiring, well, in the process of the litigation, we really
didn't get to litigation, ----in the process of the legal discussions which led to the
consent decree, and the city did consent voluntarily to this, in that process, we
froze all hires in the department. That created enough vacancies so that we were able
in that next year and a half by hiring virtually exclusively minorities, ----
Mayor Ferre: How could you do that under law? How could you exclusively hire minorities?
Did you have a civil service process?
Mr. Grassie We agreed with the Civil Service Board to set up a parallel system
acceptable to the court and one which couldn't be objected to by anyone because of its
impartiality and the professional nature of its preparation. We actually went to a
firm in Mineapolis which was the only firm we knew of is the country, which had successfully
litigated a fire fighters test and had it upheld by the federal court system. We wen to
that firm and had them design a test for us, we engaged alocal public relations firm really
to do an intensive advertising campaign in the minority neighborhoods and we got out
enough applicants and we tested them using this federally validated process so that we
had a list long enough that we could make all of our appointments from among the minorities
----I am not telling you that I have -
Mayor Ferre: Did you have some problems with the established fire department?
Was it white, Anglo Saxon department, wasn't there some resistance to that? You.
would only pick from a minority group for a certain number of years? Until you reached
your 13%?
Mr, Grasse; Yes, we had resistance but it was what I would characterize as
intelligent resistance, Our employees are not, --they have a certain sense of social
responsibility and they recognize the problem also, They know that the city in being
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subject to federal jurisdiction can get itself into tote problems than we wete in►
And in fact through teatonable discussion with out employee groups we have gained their
cooperation,
Mayor Ferret In other wotds you achieved your goal through cooperation of the
employee groups.
Mr. Grassier Yes, they have not actively opposed the process. I am not telling
you they like it, but the have not actively oppo+ted it.
Mayor Ferre: Tell us some of the reasons why you consider leaving this job
that you presently have, or why would you be interested in this particular job?
Mr. Grassie: There is only one reason that I would consider leaving my
present position and that is that I feel that professionally I am at a stage
that I need to make a change. I simply feel that I have been in Grand Rapids
about the right time both for the City which is most important, and for me pro-
fessionally.
Mayor Ferre: Is that a matter of philosophy on your part? Would you feel the
same way 5 years from now in the City of Miami, or 7 years, it is time, so many years,
for the benefit of the city and also for your professional benefit to move along to
another job.
Mr. Grassie: Well I guess it would depend where Miami was 5 or 7 years from now.
The city of Grand Rapids has moved from a position of significant problem to a position
where most people feel everything is on the upbeat. Everything is moving, --you know, we
have financial problems, we are going to lay off people, I am not telling you it is
a rosy picture,what Iam saying is the community basically feels things are progressing
and things are moving ahead.
At some point you have to decide it is the right time to move. That is the only
reason I would move.
Mr. Plummer: Mr. Grassie during your 7 years as adminisrator of Grand Rapids,
have you made application to any other cities during that period for city manager?
Mr. Grassie: I have never initiated an application in the 7 years.
Mr. Plummer: Have you done as you have here because I understand you did initiate
here and in what year did you do that?
Mr. Grassie: The first time was about three years ago.
Mr. Plummer: After 4 years you did consider a change?
Mr. Grassie: I was asked by a city to submit an application and I did so.
In this 7 year period, I have not sent anybody an application unsolicited.
Mr. Plummer: I understand. In the remaining 3 years since that time, how many
cities have you agreed to speak with in a possible change?
Mr. Grassie: Maybe fortunately the invitations are coming more frequently.
Mr. Plummer: I am speaking to you personally. Have you gone to 4 other cities
or 5 or 2 during this 3 year period that you accepted the first invitation.
Mr. Grassie:The last three months I have had 3 invitations.
Mr. Plummer: The last 3 months?
Mr. Grassie: Yes. This is the second city I have gone to . I have another one
pending. AS I say, it just happens to be that the pace seems to be accelerating .
Mr. Plummer; Thank you.
Mayor Ferre; Tell us about your weaknesses and what is it you find difficult to
do. We all have weaknesses. We allexcell in something and weak in others. What is yours?
Mr, Grassie; Yes, I have several of those, I guess if I had to point one which I
feel is particularly damaging to me, It is that i do not like to have to exercise
a political role. Let me explain that, There are communities that want the Manager
to be the basic spokesman for the community, who want him to represent the city in
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front of the legislature to do the lobbying down in Washington, to make appearances
at the House committee Sessions, that is a procett Idon't enjoy. I can do it, I have
done some of it, I don't particularly like it and I am not looking forward to get into
a situation that I have to do that:
Mayor Fette: ON the other hand you said your strength during these last 7 years
was in solving the political problems that you were confronted with, How can you on
the one hand say that that was your strength for 7 years and then say also that is your
weakness?
Mr, Grassie: Let me make that distinction for you, It has been particularly
---my experience, has been particularly successful in dealing with a city commission,
I think that is possibly the single most important job of a manager. I don't character-
ize that as a political role, A city manager cannot operate with dealing with his
legislative body, What I am talking about is the basic political role of representing
city interests at other legislative levels, and that is somethign which involves a
politician -to -politician kind of an approach which I think is the most defective way
of getting that particular thing done. It is in no way to be confused with the role
of an administrator who has to deal with his legislative body.
Mayor Ferre: All right. What other weaknesses would you consider in yourself?
Mr. Grassie: Do I have to tell you all of them?
Mayor Ferre: We don't want a general confession. You can do that with the
Father after the meeting. We just want you to give us just an idea of what in your
own when you look in the mirrow, what do you see as a weakness?
Mr. Grassie: Probably the thing I worry most about and that I consider I have
to keep working at, is another facet of what I told you earlier when I said I spent
40% of my time in a task -force kinds of interchange with the department heads. I am
not, I don't budget my time when it comes to the people with whom I work. I dont'
budget my time well enough, and I am conscious of that and I tell my self I am going to
do better, and I have to keep working at it all the time.
Mayor Ferre: Would you classify yourself as a 'work-a-holic',,.
Mr. Grassie: I hope not. I wouldn't be proud of it.
Mayor Ferre: If you work 11 hours a day, 5 days a week, that is 55 hours, and
you say you are not a 'work-a-holic' cant to know what you are? That is not consistent.
Any man that for 7 years works 55 hours a week and has 27 people reporting to him, that
takes a lot of stamina and I would imagine you would not do it unless you liked it.
Mr. Grassie: I enjoy but I am not proud of it.
Mayor Ferre: Are you saying then that going back to this weakness thing, you
feel perhaps you could budget your time instead of working 55 hours you could, like
General Marshall once said, and I want to say it so you don't feel I am putting you on,
General Marshall once said, that any man that can't do a week's job in 40 hours is very
poorly organized.
MR. Grassie: I have heard that Mr. Mayor. That is why I worry about it.
Mayor Ferre: I worry about it. You are not alone. What are some of the things
that you and the employees disagreed on? Y0u must have had some, you had a 21
day strike. Why don't you tell us about that. What kind of run-in did you have with
the employees?
Mr. Grassie: Well, it was strictly economic. We got all the issues resolved
except the economic question. It was a question of how much.
Mayor Ferre: Who struck?
Mr. Grassie: All of the non -uniformed employees. Again I want to emphasize
that we kept the city running with supervisory personnel working 12 on and 12 hours
off for 7 days a week. We kept the city running for 3 weeks,
Mayor Ferre: You think that was a wise thing to do?
Mr, Grassie; No question about it.
Mayor Ferret The employee§ still like you? They Still say good morning to you?
Mr. Grassie: Oh, no question about it, During the entire strikes I went around
every day; at all hours of the day and visited all the picket lines; there was no
animosity , They knew that they wanted more money and we knew we didn't want to give
them any more money, and there wag not a question of hating each other.
Mayor Ferre: How did you settle it? Did you break the strike or was there
a settlement?
Mr. Grassie: No. at least we didn't view it that way. But they didn't break
us either.
Mayor Ferre: What was the settlement?
Mr. Grassie: We gave them a little more than we wanted, and they took a little
less than they wanted.So we came together some place in the middle.
Mayor Ferre: Did you have a bargaining agent during this process or did you
do all the bargaining yourself?
Mr. Grassie: No, I have never been part of a bargaining team, nor would I ever
propose to be. I have always been immediately in the background, I have always had
a professional labor negotiator on my staff supported by two or three other people.
I don't think that a city of this size can operate,and I'll tell right now, without
a staff of five people in this area.
Mayor Ferre: Five people in the labor negotiation area?
Mr. Grassie: Exclusively. I am sure you view that as a big dollar item, but
I am afraid that is what I have to tell you. That is what I think you need.
Mayor Ferre: Let me ask you this in this whole process. Did you finally make
the decision for the settlement? after 21 days?
Mr. Grassie: The way we operate is, we go to our city commission, we ask them
for limits, we say, we think we can settle at this point, we want to know what you
will allow us. Give us the outside limit of what you will allow us to go to, we will
get the best deal we can.
Mayor Ferre: Is that a public prpocess?
•
Mr. Grassie: No, Michigan state law provides for three exclusions from the basic
law which covers open meetings, the three exclusions are, labor negotiations, real estate
matters and personalities.
Mayor Ferre: And personalities. That makes an awful lot of sense. I am a very
strong advocate of the sunshie law in Florida, but there are a lot of things this
commission is precluded from talking. We can't talk about characteristics of people
we hire. We have to do all this out here. The problem is a lot of questions that really
should be asked, should be discussed, they can't be asked because if you don't get this
job, it may be embarrassing to you in the job you return to.
Mr. Grassie: Sure.
Mayor Ferre: It is something that we could probably do individually but it can't
be discussed. So there is an inherent conflict in all this. There may be things that
will come out in a privat conversation between an applicant and a commissioner that
techincally under our law we can't go this way.
Mr. Grassie: YOu have the model law in a way in the sunshine legislation but
it is very though.
Mayor Ferre; It needs a little honing, a little polish.
Mr. Grassie; It is very tough on you as a legislative body to,---
Mayor Ferre; It is interesting those are the three areas, I think you are right,
the purchase of real estate for a governmental body, in personalities, such as the
hiring of a city manager and in labor negotiations,
9
Mayor Ferret During the strike that was going on for 21 days, were you Still
meeting with you 27 department heads?
Mr, Grassie: No, We prepared what we called a strike plan which assigns to
all the management people a responsibility, including the manager, one of my
principal responsiblities was to handle ail contacts with news media, No one else
including members of the commission had any contact with the new media, So that
and the quesiton of simply keeping of what was happening out in the field and as
I say, I visited all the picket lines.
Mayor Ferre: How many newspapers do you have in Grand Rapids?
Mr. Grasie: We have one, it is part of the Booth chair- It is a large newspaper
chain, a very effective newspaper but they control the printed, ---aside from some
weeklies we have, they control the printed news,
Mayor Ferre: Are they a major factor in the process?
Mr. Grassie: They are certainly a very influential kind of element in the
community.
Mayor Ferre: How did you relate with the press?
Mr. GRassie: Reasonably well. No one has complete success I think from his
own point of view. From your own point of view, unless they make you look like a
knight in shining armor you probably have failed.
Mayor Ferre: You are not a knight in shining armor.
Mr. Grassie : I am not a knight in shining armor. I think the conclusion
of the city commission was that the press coverage we got during the strike was
quite good and in fact was the single most important element in making it possible
to arrive at some kind of reasonable settlement.
Mayor Ferre: how many unions do you deal with?
Mr. Grassie: We have 3 right now, we use to have 4 until about 3 weeks ago,
we de -certified a teamster union.
Mayor Ferre:The fire fighers and police, are they union?
Mr. Grassie: Yes, the FOP is organized as a union, the firefighters are organized
as a bargaining unit and our general employees , that includes everybody else, ----
Mayor Ferre: During your strike, did the police and firefighters cross the
picket lines?
Mr. Grassie: As part of our strike plan we arranged not to force the police
and fire to cross the picket lines. So the occasion did not come up.
Mayor Ferre: You didn't have an emeergency or anything.
Mr. Grassie: We planned our operations so they are not obliged to do that.
Mayor Ferre: What are your overall career objectives? You are 42 as I recall.
What is your career objective?
Mr. Grassie: Considering I am here talking with you, I guess I have to conclude
that one of the things that I must have as an objective is to find new problems.
Mayor Ferre; Find new problems?
Mr, Grassie: Very seriously, my situation where I am,is in comparison to what
I think people are telling me here, quite comfortable, But maybe that is one of the
reasons why I am considering changing. I suppose that, and Idon't want to sound pious
about this, but I suppose we do look for the kind of professional. challenge that keeps
us in the business in the first place.
Mayor Ferre; What is your objective eventually, What do you want to be 10 or 15
years from now?
Mr. Grassiet Ido want to stay in management, I do want to stay in
municipal management and I hope to do to at a successful level; in a way that
I guess makes me feel good about being in management: I don't want to have to
feel that I failed in it.
Mr. Plummer: Let me ask you a few questions. What has been your experience
with computers?
Mr. Grassie: We have a,what I consider to be quite a sophistocated computer
installation in the city. Let me give you a quick measure of that. Almost all of the
city operations are now on what we call direct access to the computer. We have almost
completely phased out of the card -punch kind of input system to our computers. Most
of our department operate on line from their own offices and are able to not only
put their information into the equipment but also query the euqipment and get answers.
back. So our process, and this includes by the way, the police department, our process,
is a very live process. Our computer is not a simply fancy adding machine, but is a
working tool for the majority of city departments. It is on line now. WE still have
of the 27 departments, we still have possibly 3 that are in just the final phases
of going on line. Our income tax departments which was one of the first departments
we put on the initial computer, has the most difficulty in getting on the new computer,
but basically we are completely on line.
Mr. Plummer: What kind of experience have you personally had in the area
of pensions?
Mr. Grassie: I would characterize it simply as normal experience. We have a
pension system which is far as I can tell similar to yours, except in benefits possibly.
We have a pension board that sets policy for the pension system, we have the normal
kinds of arrangements for investment counsel and pension fund management. We have some
of the same kinds of underfunding that you have although in apparently smaller degree,
but the same type of thing. I would characterize it simply as conventional kind of
experience. I can say this about your pension problem here, as it has been related
to me by two or three people. I think it is an extremely critical element your future
financial planning.
Mr. Plummer: Have you, or your representative, do they sit on the pension board?
Mr. Grassie: Yes, not my personal representatives, but representatives of the
city. We have two city representatives, two organized labor representatives, and one
representative chosen by the two parties, a board of five.
Mr. Plummer: What has been your personal relationship with your civil service
board?
Mr. Grassie: Good, in the sense of our avoiding conflicts. The civil service
board is staffed by the personnel director who is my appointment, my personnel
director. This is key to a good working relationship with the civil service system.
They don't have separate staff.
Mayor Ferre: I am not following you. You have civil service board. How many
members on the board?
Mr. Grassie: Seven, ----
Mayor Ferre: And the chairman of that board is your personnel director?
_ Mr. Grassie: No, no. not the chairman, the staff head, the person who does
all of the staff work, ---
Mayor Ferre:--the staff of the civil service is done by your personnel, ----
Mr. Grassie;- correct, ---
Mayor Ferret How does the civil service board get elected, are they appointed
or elected by the employee groups or what?
Mr, Grassie; No, they are appointed by the city commission, but the employees
have an opportunity to nominate a minority of the civil service board, I mean a numerical
minority to the civil service board.
Mayor Fette: Out of the seven the employee groups recommend and the city
appoints three out of the sevens and the other four are non-
employee related,
Mr. Grassie: Two out of the seven ate appointed by employees, one is a city
commissioner, and four are citizens appointed by the city commission.
Mayor Ferre:And they select their chairman?
Mr. Grassie: Yes, they select their chairman from their membership,
Mayor Ferret Is that appointment every two years or four years
Mr. Grassie: They are three year appointments, staggard.
Mayor Ferre: And then the staff work is done by city employees, and report
directly to you.
Mr. Grassie: The chief examiner who is the chief staff person for the civil
service board, is the personnel director.
Mayor Ferre: In other words civil service basically is a policy setting board
rather than an administrative board?
Mr. Grassie: It is a rule setting and arbitrating board. They have two basic
functions. They set civil service rules for the classification and examination
rpocess, they used to, although we have negotiated it out, they used to pass on
employee grievances, they used to be an arbitration board for employee grievances.
Mr. Plummer: Have you ever been in private business?
Mr. Grassie: I have worked for a private consulting firm. It was a firm that
worked exclusively for government, so I am not sure whether that fits your definition
or not?
Mr. Plummer: No, I mean have you ever been in business where you yourself
have had to make payrolls, or things of this nature.
Mr. Grassie: No.
Mr. Plummer:Basically your operation has been in municipal operation.
MR. Grassie: My wife has been in business.
Mayor Ferre:By the way I might point out, that is a valid point. I ask Mr.
Grassie why his wife was not accompanying him, and just for the record, he is
vacationing with his children, 13 and 15, they are in Jacksonville,his wife had
to stay there with the children.
I notice in your presentation here, you said you reorganized the police
department, where did I see that? Somewere in here you said you reorganized the
police department.
Mr. Grassie: I don't believe so.
Mayor Ferre; You started a new classification of police aides.
Mr. Grassie: Oh, yes, this is in conjunction with affirmative action program.
Mayor Ferre: Tell us about police aides and how did that work out.
Mr. Grassie: Well, that is somewhat of a complex process, The problem we had
was that through, and I want to distinguish this in your mind, from the process we
went through for the firefighters. The firefighters was a process we set up under
the consent decree. The police department process is a process we have done voluntarily
and so far have done with the concurrence of the FOP. Again they are not wildly enthuias-
tic about it, but they have concurred, Now, the process has been this, because the tradit-
ional civil service device has not produced the number of minorities, it has not produced
any significant number of minorities, on the list of eligibles, we have set up a classi-
fication of police aides and we have recruited exclusively minorities and women, in these
positions, and have had them aboard for a period of between 8 and 12 months in a process
1?
preparing them to take the standard civil service test. When they feel they are ready
to take the standard civil service test, then we give them the standard civil service
test and if they ate successful, then they are appointed as police recruits, If they
ate not successful, they simply go back to the police aide position and continue in
what I would call an internship plan with the city and have an opportunity to take
the test again. It is a question of the distinction basically as the otte between
qualified and qualifiable, if you follow the terminology of affirmative action. We
are talking about qualifiable individuals who are made qualified through the process
of the police aide classification.
Mayor Ferre: Any other questions?
Mrs. Gordon: In the report we have, one of the itmes says you established an
employee committee to define career advancement objectives for women in city government,
and cooperated with the organization of now to incorporate goals and timetables for
employment of women in the city's affirmative action plan. Will you tell us how that
turned out?
Mr. Grassie: Yes, first I have to tell you that we started that about 18 months
ago before N.O.W. came to the city, the organization N.O.W. came to the city. We
did it voluntarily as a staff initative, and what we were trying to do, was, because
we recognized that the question of employment of women was simply the next problem
that was coming over the horizion. We were attempting to get ready for it, and to
do some planning ahead.
Mayor Ferre: That is quite a problem.
Mr. Grassie: Well, it is a problem, and let me tell you the kind of problem
that it has been for us and I think will be for most communities. I think most of
us recognize that we want to do the right thing, the proper thing. But the question
of establishing how you measure that when it comes to the employment of women. It
is an extremely sophisticated sort of thing. That is the problem. The question of
ariving at a validatible kind of a goal for women. Now, in our work force for example,
women constitute 36.2 percent of the total work force. The question is, is that an
intelligent goal for employment of women in all classes, and if so by when. And that
Mayor is what I characterize as the problem.
Mrs. Gordon: How many women are in top-level positions in your city government?
Mr. Grassie:Out of the 27, I have only one department head who is a woman.
Mayor Ferre; What department is that?
Mr. Grassie: Community relations.
Mayor Ferre: Is that the one where you merged. I notice here you say you merged
community relations with affirmative action or something else.
Mr. Grassie: I am in the process of doing that, for this coming budget year, she
will probably assume responsibilty not only for community relations but also for
basic affirmative action and contract compliance programs.
Mayor Ferre: What is contract compliance, is that labor?
Mr. Grassie: No, contract compliance is simply one more aspect of this
complex inter -related thing that we tend easily to call affirmative action. But
our city has for many years, had a contract compliance program. What this consists
in, is setting minority and now, women employment goals, for contractors who do
business with the city.
Mayor Ferre: Tell us a little bit about your view of the whole planning
process, zoning, urban growth, dynamics of it, --planning, that type of thing.
Mr. Grassie: I am kind of old fashioned in that regard, I guess. I am still
in favor of planning. I believe in it, I think communities need to do a good
professional job of planning, you are talking about physical planning? I don't
expect that a community is going to adopt a plan which it is going to stick by
for 10 year, but I do think it is particular important that a community go through
the exercise and make the policy decisions at your level so that you establish the
kind of broad guidelines that your operating departments need to be out there working
at and trying to implement.
,. 13
Mr, Plummets The othet questions that I had he has already answered in his
ptesentation,
Mrs, Gordon: Just a little follow up, but not to be repetitious but just tot
clarification, I undetstand you said you had the problem with regard to the hiring of
tote women into executive positions, did you interview women for some those 13 or 14
besides the one you did hire, into community relations, but for some of the other
department heads or assistant department heads positions, did you have any women
=did you look for any women, did you try to put women into those positions, and
what was the teason you didn't? Was it because you couldn't find qualified women
or didn't look for them?
Mr. Grassie: You have assumed that I haven't. I have to tell you two things
to answer you. One, in the last 5 years, recuirting in the ways that I indicated
to you that I recruited, recruiting for department head positions, in those five
years, out of the probably 3 or 4 hundred applicants for all kinds of positions.
that I have seen, I have had one woman applicant, way under qualified. That is
say, maybe the system is wrong, but that is the experience.
Mrs. Gordon: It wasn't because you didn't look for them, or discourage, -----
Mr. Grassie: Let me tell you the other side of the picture. What I have done,
in view of that experience, I have created positions of administrative assistant,
not administrative assistant in the Manager's department necessarily, but adminis-
trative assistants to all the department heads. These are positions which are beginning
level, professional positions. We require a master's degree in public administration
to fill this job, but no necessary experience. And that is where we have been successful
in hiring minorities, that is where we have been successful in hiring women in the
first rung of the administrative category. That is the person who is working at the
right hand of the department head and can come to you straight out of school, because
that is all you are asking for. But if that person stays with you, for three or four
years, you now have a trained academically, and professionally, person, who is creating
the kind of labor pool that I never found when I was. recruiting.
Mayor Ferre: If there are no more question, thank you Mr. Grassie. We appreciate
your courtesies here, and you will be around till when?
Mr. Grassie: I suppose to join my family on their vacation, I am leaving at 6:25
Mr. Mayor.
Mayor Ferre: I think it might be important if you leave us your phone so we
reach you if any member of the commission might have further questions of you.
Mr. Grassie: I would happy to do that.
Mayor Ferre: When would you normally be going back to Michigan?
Mr. Grassie: We will be driving back this weekend and I expect that by next
Wednesday or Thursday, I would be avilable if you wished, for another visit.
Mrs. Gordon: You are bilingual aren't you?
Mr. Grassie: Yes.
Mrs. Gordon: Is your wife also bilingual?
Mr. Grassie: Yes, she speak five languages.
Mayor Ferre: Five languages? Maybe we could interview her. Is she a linguist
by profession or,--=
Mr. Grassie: No, she grew up in Europe.
Mayor Ferre; Thank you very much.
Mr. Grassie: Thank you for the opportunity of meeting with you.
NOTE; Mayor Eerie called a short recess, after which the commission
reconvened with all members present,
14
Mayor Ferre: I would like to take this opportunity to introduce to those who
have not met Mrs: Miller, who is here. Mrs. Miller and Mr. Miltet's daughter,-i=
Mr, Jerome Miller:= =iny wife Marsha and daughter Valerie.
Mayor Ferre: Thank you. What we are doing, we are taking about a hour and 5 or
10 minutes for these interviews. In the first 15 minutes why don't you tell us about
yourself, who you are, what you have done, and talk about anything you want, and give
us a little insight into your person. We have some written questions that have
been submitted to us by Arthur D. Little and we use those a little bit as a guideline,
then from there we will get into more specific areas.
Mr. Jerome Miller: Thank you very much, Mayor, and members of the commission. I
appreciate being invited to your lovely city. This is the second or third time I
have been here and this time I had a chance to look around. It is indeed one of
the cities that can hold a candle to my own city of Los Angeles.
Just a few words about my background. Academically, I have progressed in the
basic of field of cultural and social anthropology, specializing in the field of
--the new field of urban anthropology, which is differing from the older view of
anthropology of being archaeology, towards a newer aspect of the social sciences
that is the relationship of urban man to urban settings, and the basic institutions
that man sets up and how he relates to them. I studied for my master's program at
the University of the Americas in Mexico City, graduated cum laude in Los Angeles,
from the California State University in Northridge. We lived during that period of
time in Mexico City with my family and myself and it was a great and enriching
experience. Currently I am on staff at the University of California, at UCLA. I
teach through the graduate school of management, in a variety of fields of urban
administration, talking about how to set up a manpower projects, or administrative
and physical systems, how to implement a variety of urban programs and the whole
range of affairs that are currently involved in the field of urban administration.
Before my current position with the City of Los Angeles, I was a senior policy
consultant and analyist for the National League of Cities, basically operating out of
the west coast, but out of the Washington offices as well. I was involved in a wide
range of consulting with mayors, city managers, council people across the country,
in a variety of issues as to how to set up programs, administrative structures as
they relate to the current federal programming that has come out of Washington D.C.
Some of that would be the CETA program of the housing community development development
act, general revenue sharing, the whole range of programs from LEAA to senior citizens,
youth programs, etc.
In Los Angeles I was with the National League of Cities when Mayor Bradley in
Los Angeles was elected approximately 3 years ago. He called me and asked me to return
to Los Angeles where I was previously employed and I was honored to be his first appoint-
ment of his new administration. I in fact represented the Mayor before he was formally
elected mayor, while he was mayor -elect, and was appointed representing him in city
government, with Mayor Yorty's administration in order to manage the transition of the
two governments, the two administrations. As soon as the mayor took office I became his
chief administrative assistant, technically the term is special assistant to the mayor.
I also assumed the title of director of urban development and director of employment
training, all of the manpower training programs as well as the urban renewal, the physical
side as well. The programs that I designed in Los Angeles, I represent both the physical
from the central community redevelopment agency programs, our central business district
programs, our housing, rehabilitation operations, the administration of our community
redevelopment agency, our housing authority, the computerized analysis that is done
by our community analysis bureau which I directed, and on the social -human resource
side, all of the senior citizen to youth programs, to LEAA, to counseling a whole
range of individualized programs. I have been a department head in the city government
for a number of years, administered budgets ranging approximately 130 to 150 million
dollars.
The most recent effort we have been applying ourselves to in Los Angeles has
been the submission of the major city budget. It is now approximately one billion
dollars, for the first time we have to submit a deficit budget, we are short about
18 million'dollars and are confronting some layoffs. The time involved in the past
few weeks has really been totally involved in that budget preparation with the police
department, fire department, public works, all range of city services throughout
the entire city government of Los Angeles.
Another role that I play for Los Angeles is that of inter -governmental relationships,
I represent the city in a variety of roles with a large urban county government, I believe
something similar to a situation you have here in Mlami, I also represent the city
with the State of California, appointed by Governor Brown to several of his boards, and
am involved in a whole range of activities in Sacramento, I represent the Mayor in
15
Washington D.C. with the National League of Cities, United States Conference of
Mayors, involved in legislative issues, adhinistrative issues as they proceed through
the federal departments.
When Arthur D. Little contacted me about this particular position, I did not
know that it was vacant, I did not originally seek the position of city manager.
Upon studying your city, and studying your situation, I found it to be attractive
enough to then submit my name and be pleased to come down at your invitation to
look at your city and it happens to be one of those that appears to be one that
would be forward looking enough to grapple with the problems that are facing
municipalities across the country in the next 10 years. I certainly hope that is
the case. No manager can solve the problems by himself and he certainly needs the
assistance of local elected officials.
I have specialized as an administrator working'for elected officials and
take that role very seriously and laying out the options, whether they be pleasant
or not, so it is important in the decision making process that elected officials
know what those options are and what the implications are. Once those decisions are
made then fine, I will implement them and administration is my strong suit. So,
that very, very briefly is a quick run-down of my background.
I thank you Mr. Mayor for the opportunity and I can respond to any issues
or questions you may like to raise.
Mayor Ferre: Tell us about your relationship with Mayor Yorty and how was
that established and how is that developed over the years, ---excuse me, I didn't
mean Mayor Yorty, I meant with Mayor Tom Bradley.
Mr. Miller: I can relate to that as well. If I may, with Mayor Yorty's adminis-
tration, back when the economic opportunity act was passed, I was brought into city
government at that time, mainly by the city council and one of the individuals on the
council happened councilman Tom Bradley and I designed and implemented all of the
economic opportunity programs in the City of Los Angeles.
Mayor Ferre: How did you meet Mayor Bradley, was this a personal friendship
or academically or --
Mr. MIller: When I went into city government in L.A. at that time, back in
the middle 60's, and I went in to design the anti -poverty programs for the city.
Mayor Bradley was then councilman Bradley, and was in charge of what we call the
state, county and federal affairs committee of our city council. He got to know my
work at that particular time. That was the council committee that I related to with
my department, so technically I was working for Mayor Yorty at that time and then
later when Mayor Bradley was elected, he called me back. I was at that time with
National League of cities, and the Conference of Mayors and he asked if I would
return to Los Angeles and serve with him which I was honoered to do.
Mayor Ferre: When you were involved in bankruptcy office with the federal
chapter of 13 court for 2 years, how did you get involved in that, what type of
experience was that. How did you go from the deputy sheriff's office, --as a
deputy sheriff in the sheriff's office, into bankruptcy court?
Mr. MIller: Well I was with the sheriff's office in Los Angeles, and had a
very exciting fruitful in law enforcement. I retired due to an on -duty injury.
My brother at the time, was involved in the bankruptcy field with the federal
court and I joined him in that particular effort. We dealt with not only chapter 13
cases, but chapter il's where we would get involved with chapter 11 plans for large
corporations, go in and straighten out their problems, put them back on an operating
level, if possible, or recommend to the court that they complete the bankruptcy
proceedings. So I have extensive background in the private sector as far as to
fiscal management and operations are concerned.
Mayor Ferre: What happened between 1965, and 67, I notice there is a jump
here? Two years there ,---
Mr. Miller: That is the period of time we went down to Mexico,
Mayor Ferre:---studied in Mexico,
Mr. Miller; -urban anthropology and cultural anthropology, correct.
Mayor Ferre! You were there for two years?
Mr, Miller; Less than 2 years, about a year and a half,
=16-
Mayor Ferre: 'Then you came back and joined the City of Los Angeles?
Mr, Millet: Right.
Mr, Plummer: Mt. Miller, what was your disability on?
Mr. Miller: 1 had a back injury, sit, and ruptured disc.
Mr. Plummer: Are you drawing a pension?
Mt. Millet: Yes, from the county of Los Angeles.
MR. Plummer: Plus, you are also getting a salary?
Mr. Miller: That was the county of Los Angeles, I work for the City of Los Angeles
now.
Mr. Plummer: YOu are drawing both, what I am getting at.
Mr. MIller: Yes.
Mayor Ferret I guess that permitted you go off to Mexico to get your
Master's.
Mr. Miller: It was a period of time in my life that I pursued further academic
pursuits, yes.
Mayor Ferre: Tell us, in your last job, what were some of the things you felt
were most important and that you dedicated the majority of your time to, in the job
you have been handling now.
Mr. MIller: Well Ithink the most exciting part of that would be the establishment
of the new administration in Los Angeles. Los Angeles government experienced approximately
12 years of one administration that was not characterized by responsivness and openess
to the public. Mayor Bradley was elected and one of the things he asked me to do in
structuring that new administration is to design a variety of systems for a citizen -
community input into the variety of programs we had plus the budget process. We
instituted an open house process with the Mayor and various council members meet
with public every month, come in at will, --it is just a process of opening up the
government to the decisions, the input of the people. That basic restructuring plus
other programs such as the affirmative action, dealing with a large civil service
structure as we have in Los Angeles, and implementing an affirmative action program
that adequately reflects the appropriate percentage of our ethnic communities, and
appropriate sex ratios at decision making positions. I would say those two area took
a great deal of time, plus of course, implementing the two, some call them special
revenue sharing projects, CETA and the housing community development act, which I was
responsible for. So all of that, tying in together, denoting a new kind of administrative
tone for the City of Los Angeles.
Mayor Ferre: Y0u have been in that particular job since 1973?
Mr. Miller: Yes, sir.
Mayor Ferre: Why don't you describe to us exactly what it is you do now.What is
your present job, exactly in more detail, you covered it before, but what does .a
special assitant to the Mayor, and director of the office of training and job develop-
ment do? What do you do in 40 or 50 hours, or
Mr. Miller: You only wish to know about half of the week?
Mayor Ferre: You mean you work 80 hours?
Mr. Miller: Yes, sir,
Mayor Ferre: We were just talking to another work-a-holic, I am a work-a-holic,
is that what you are too?
Mr, Miller; I am afraid so, but Mayor Bradley can even beat me at it,
Mayor Ferre; I'll have to tell you what I told Mr, Grassie a while ago, General
Marehall once said that any man that can't do a week's job in 40 hours is very poorly
l7—
organized. That of course atsnlies to tee
Mre Miller:General Marshall never worked for the City of Los Angeles.-===-=-
a budget of atptoxitnately 60 to 70 millions of dollars, it encompassed
the entire housing and community development field, it supervised the preparation of
the city's workable program for the elimination of blight, -=I have handled all of the
contracts with HUD, I established and designed the first fait housing program for the
City of Los Angeles, and just made sure, monitored and evaluated all of our physical
development projects. We have our Bunker Hill redevelopment project, we have our central
City redevelopment project, we have 4 or 5 others that was totally devoted to housing
and redevelopment. At the same time I was responsible for developing and implementing
the city's prime sponsorship under the comprehensive employment training act, established
a brand new department for that particular piece of revenue sharing, I administered a
staff of approximately 400 in that department, and another budget of about 120 million
dollars, established all of our public service employment programs, our training pro-
grams, our fiscal control and monitoring units and relate to the federal government
a whole range of issues from HUD to department of labor, to HEW, to LEAA, basically
everything we are involved in, I represent the Mayor in that particular score, and
head those departments.
In representing the Mayor with the county of Los Anagles, we have a situation,
we have in Los Angeles a very large urban county government. The county government
has a desire to become larger. The City of Los Angeles has a desire to maintain its
position, so there are always some very delicate negotiations that have to go on between
the City of Los Angeles, and Los Angeles county government. I think it is a matter of
understanding, that both governments have a right to exist and that we have to look at
it functionally and find out which government can operate in the best manner for the
benefit of the people. We have recently turned over as an example, our beaches to the
county government. In Los Angeles, our beaches were small beaches surrounded by county
beaches, and it was advantageous to us to do that. There are other areas where we have
instigated legal action against the county. We have what our we call our county service
area suit, and some legislation in that area where the city of Los Angeles is pursuing
a course to avoid what we call our double taxation problem where the city taxpayers
are in effect subsidizing the municipal services that the county provides the unincorp-
orated areas.
Mayor Ferre: Is that a lawsuit?
Mr. Miller: Yes, the lawsuit was filed by the City of Los Angeles and is held
in abeyance, a piece of legislation was passed, and we are in the process of implementing
that legislation to see who will resolve the issue.
Mayor Ferre: You mean the state is implementing, or the city is implementing?
Mr. Miller: The city is starting the action. The state passed the law to allow
the city to start a particular course of action to resolve this problem. If we do not
get it resolved then we will reactivate the lawsuit.
Mr. Plummer: If you move to Miami, you will feel right at home.
Mayor Ferre: We are right in the middle of something like that.
Mr. Miller: As far as that, that's with the county government, with the state
government, we are involved, Los Angeles maintains an office in Sacramento, which
is the capital in California. I relate to Sacramento as the city's representative
in all range of state issues, legislative as well as administrative issues and repre-
sent the Mayor at the national level with national legislative issues, national
administrative concerns, charting all of our contracts and programs through the
federal bureaucracies and responsible for that area as well.
Mayor Ferre: Mr. Miller what are some of the things that you feel that you
have done particularly well in the last couple of years. What is the one area you
have really excelled in. We tackle different jobs, but we are always proud of one
thing that seems to come out, or stick out in our minds.
Mr. Milier; I would have to answer that in a variety of ways, Mr. Mayor. In
being a primary factor shall we say in breathing life into a very large urban govern-
ment was a very exciting process, in stituting affirmative action program that works,
in our city and metropolitan area such as we have, It was also a significant accomplish-
ment, and I feel very proud of that,
I feel I atn a very stron administrator but I do not do everything myself, I gather
- 18 ,.
a team around me, 1 gather a working relationship with a team in order to accomplish
the goals of the city, I think that molding that kind of a team, is one of my signifi=
cant accomplishments,
In Los Angeles we have the city council, the most active legislative council
in the United STates, including the Congress of the United States, It meets every day,
there are 15 members, with all aspects of the political spectrum and desires and
goals,
Mayor Ferre: Can you imagine listening to Plummer every single day?
Mr. Miller: You aren't asking me that are you sir?
Mayor Ferre: If you get his job you will know.
Mr. Plummer: Mayor Bradley is a strong mayor.
Mr. Miller: In raising the point about the city coucil, it does take, it is
an accomplishment to present a whole range of programs, a range of decisions to a
city council as large as we have in Los Angeles and yet I have been fortunate never
to lose an issue in the city council of L.A. I have the respect of the entire council
no matter what political perspective they represent, they see me as not a political
figure but the representative of the administrative side of Mayor Bradley's administration.
I think that along with the work that I have done as an inter-govermental specialist
represents the highlights.
Mayor Ferre: Tell us about your weaknesses. We all have weaknesses. What is
your weak area? Or should we ask Mrs. Miller?
Mr. Miller: YOu can if you like. I would say, ---well it is hard to characterize
it as a weakness. I would say I have a low -frustration level, if we may call it, instead
of a weakness for incompetence, I have a low -frustration level for incompetence.
Mayor Ferre: Does that mean you are intolerant incompetent people?
Mr. Mlller: Not necessarily intolerant, I fire them.
Mr. Plummer: That is pretty intolerant.
Mr. Miller: I do not believe that the public sector is some place that, as
far as competence and professionalism is concerned should be a haven for anyone
that cannot perform adequately in his position.
Mr. Plummer: That is not a weakness Mr. Miller.
Mr. Miller: Some people may refer to it as such.
Mayor Ferre: Is that the only weakness you feel you have, that stands out
in your mind?
Mr.Miller: Professionally, that is about it as far as I can see.
Mr. Plummer: You have had the job for the last three years, during that
period of time have you accepted any invitations to any other cities for the
possible job other than the outside of the L.A. area? I am not asking you to name
them. Have you accepted invitations to other cites?
Mr. Miller: I have been approached by several other cities. I have not accepted
any other. This is the first time I have come before a council.
Mr. Plummer: What has been your personal relationship with the civil service
board?
Mr. Miller; I have worked very closely with civil service in order to
implement the kinds of administrative structures that l have had to deal with.
I have had to deal with the civil service, the merit system, in the areas of both
the housing community development act and in the area of CETA where we are dealing
with bringing in others to the system that are not currently there. The implementation
of the affirmative action program,
Mr, Plummer; This is all incorporated in your civil service board?
L, 19
Mr. Millet: It was all underneath my jurisdiction and in otder to accomplish
all these things had to relate to the civil service commissions and present the changes
We wish to make within the system.
Mr. Plummer: I am talking about an employee civil service board.
Mayor Ferret Excuse me, I have been asked to announce that is a cat blocking
the drive, it is a brown 1974, LTD, ----okay?
Mr. Plummer: Iam speaking of a civil service board, that directly relates with
employees.
Mr. Miller: POssibly we don't have what you are referring to. We have a civil
service commission that the Mayor appoints.
Mr. Plummer: Does this handle grievances of employees?
Mr. Miller: Yes.
Mayor Ferre: Maybe Mr. Miller might explain, most of the people we have talked
to so far work in a similar system to ours. This is a completely different system.
The city of Los Angeles has a strong, and a very stron, Mayor form of government.
He is the chief administrator. He acts in a way like the governor of the state. He
is really stronger than most governors in the union. They have a budget of a billion
dollars, for example. They have a commission which is a legislative body, just like
out state legislature. They meet every day, they legislate laws. The mayor has nothing
to do with that. He has veto power, but the mayor for example appoints, and Jerry,
stop or correct me if I paraphrase what you told me yesterday. He appoints about
250 major commissioners. For example, and this is interesting, the police chief
does not report to the mayor, he reports to a police commission and it is a 5-man
commission and he of course appoints the 5 commissioner, and he is the final decision
maker from the administrative end, but the fire department, and all of these things
go through these commissions. There is a tremendous amount of commissions all relating
to the mayor and the mayor is a strong mayor. He has the handle, and Mr. Miller works
through the elected Mayor which is the chief adminstrator, and he is on the adminstrative
side of things. Their's is a government which follows the classic American pattern
of division between the legislative and administrative branch, both elected. It is
a completely different system. So therefore in that context, perhaps you might, and
excuse me Mr. Miller for recommending this, because it really is none of my business
to interfere and recommend how you approach this, but I think since we are talking
about two different types of governmental systems, and as you answer these things,
that you make clear for example, how does the civil service board or commission
function vs. ours? Our's is not appointed by the Mayor. How many members of thecommission,
who appoints them and how does it function, and what do they do?
Mr. Miller: If I may, further clarify that one further point. The individual
commissions establish the policies for those particular departments and the department
head responds to his commission for policy guidance but he reports administratively
to the mayor. The mayor has his cabinet and that is the role that I play, administratively.
So for policy they go to the commission, for administrative budgetary matters, budget
control, they go to the mayor.
= Mayor Ferre: Tell us about for example civil service, how does that function.
How did you relate to it?
Mr. MIller: Civil service functions, that there is a general manager of our
civil service department, --
Mayor Ferre: Who appoints him?
Mr, Miller: She is appointed by the Mayor. She relates to the civil service
commission that is appointed by the Mayor.
Mayor Ferre: How many members in the commission?
Mr. Miller: Five,---
Mayor Ferre; Do'they rule on policy matters?
Mr, Miller: On basic policy matters, correct,
20
Mayor Ferret Suppose somebody is fired in the police department by the police
chief. Can that person appeal to the civil service board?
Mr. Miller: Yes, if they are within the merit system. Yes, we do have some
exempt positions.
Mayor Ferre:Does the civil service board make a final determination or does it
go back to the mayor for a final determination.
Mr. Miller:They make the final determination and it can go on appeal to the
city council.
Mayor Ferre: They go on appeal to the city council?
Mr. Miller: Then into the courts if needs be.
Mayor Ferre: It does not go through the Mayor then?
Mr. Miller: Everything going to the city council can be vetoed by the mayor.
Mayor Ferre: So the mayor can veto a civil service matter, ---would follow the
following procedure. Assuming that there was a violation that is appealable and
covered by civil service, the person that has the grievance would go to the civil
service board, they would hear, they would rule. Then if that person was not satisfied
he would appeal to the council,
Mr. Miller: --and the mayor if he wishes, ----
Mayor Ferre:--the council would then take it up, if the council reversed it,
the mayor could veto it, then the council would have an override provision, --
Mr. Miller: --that is like the veto, 2/3's of the council to override.
Mayor Ferre: So the mayor has a tremendous amount of, --
Mr. Miller: Yes, as chief executive officer of the government, he has full control
of the budget. 0f course all appointment authority and full control of the budget. That
is the process we have been involved in the last few months. Unfortunately we have
had to cut out some 100 million dollars programs we would like to see accomplished in
our city and have submitted a deficit budget for the first time. That includes the
situation of laying off about 250 employees, and that is taking into consideration
that general revenue sharing will be reenacted, so there are a lot of presumptions
there. But for a large government, I think we are in the best financial condition
of large metropolitan governments.
Mr. Plummer: What has been your personal experience in the area of pensions.
MR. Miller: I was the mayor's representative to both our police and fire
pensions system, and we have two separate systems, yes, general employees and
our safety employees. I represented the mayor with our two independent commissions.
We have two commission that operate those two pensions systems and any questions
that they have that they wanted answered from the mayor, I was the representative.
Mr. Plummer: But you were not a member of the board?
Mr. Miller: No, not a a member of the boards. They are independently appointed
commissioners, that have a tremendous background and expertise in investments.
Mr. Plummer: So you were a liaison?
Mr. Miller; Correct,
Mr, Plummer; Other than the bankruptcy, have you ever been in any kind of private
business?
Mr. Miller; Yes, my brother and I back in 1957, we were in a discount department
store operation, Unfortunately we shut down. There was a recession at that time and
we were underfunded.
- 2]-
Mayor Ferret This is a tough question in a way Mr, Miller, attd I
apologize for it, What ate the reasons that would entice you to leave the fine
Job that you have in Los Angeles and seek another job? Why would you be interested,
why are you interested?
Mr. Miller: As you know I was approached solicited on this position, I wasn't
seeking other employment. IN looking at your city, it is one of those cities that
obviously has the kind of living environment that would be amenable to a southern
California family, Hopefully the transition to your community would not be that
traumatic in effect, As Commissioner Plummer asked earlier I have been fortunate
to receive other offers in that past that I have turned down primarily because
of conditions of those particular cities. I am very choosy where my family goes.
Hopefully this community is one that can face the problems that are facing munici-
palities in the next 10 years, and I want to be a part of that,
Mayor Ferret I would like to share with the commission that I did call Mayor
Tom Bradley and he had very high recommendations for Mr. MIller, and very high
regard for him. Certainly, we talked briefly about the possibilities that Mayor
Bradley might some day be governor of the state, or higher. I have had the good
fortune of watching Mayor Bradley in action and I can tell you that those of you
that don't know him, he is one of the most articulate, intelligent and forceful
political figures, and certainly one of the main political figures in the world
of local governments in the United States. I think undoubtedly he is destined for
higher office if he should want it and if it is available. If his health holds out,and
he is in good health, there is no question that he is going places. With that in mind,
I ask you why would you want to leave a relationship, No. 1 that excells evidently
and where you have a very high post, in one of the major cities of the country, a
billion dollar budget, close to a man who obviously is moving and obviously wants
you to stay. I don't think he minced any words about that. He is quite anxious to
have you stay in the city of Los Angeles. I don't think he is anxious to see you
leave. So under that context, why would you be thinking of this.
Mr. Miller: That is the most difficult question 1 have had today. It really
relates to a variety of factors, Mr. Mayor. My relationship with Mayor Bradley
was one that was established not just in the last 3 years, but over a number of
years where he has known me and the work that I have performed. I am not involved
with him politically. I was not in his campaigns, I did not assist him in the campaigns,
but have been called upon to handle his administrative duties. The relationship, the
respect we have for each other I believe would continue whether I stayed in Los Angeles
or not. He understands that someone at the levels we are, and the problems we have
been coping with, may wish a change of scenery. Florida, the Miami area, is a very
beautiful area. We have looked at it closely, I have lived in a very large metropolitan
area for most of my life, and have been trying to deal with the problems of a Los
Angeles most of my life, my professional career. I think we as a large government
are probably more successful than any other large government in the country, but
I would also like to experience possibly something of manageable size. Professionally
administratively, to be able to get into a community that is forward looking, that is
growing, that is willing to accept the challenge of the next decade in urban management,
urban administration, and what that really means, ----that is exciting. I think I would
have the kind of view of problems maybe to avoid, problems because of the nature of
the complexity of the Los Angeles, that smaller communities can possibly learn by what
we have failed to accomplish. All of those kinds of things professionally would make
me look towards this particular city. As commissioner Plummer said, asked me, this
is the only city I have traveled to to apply for a position, and I think basically
those are the issues, plus my family, I think it would be a good family environment,
my wife has a career of her own that we would look towards continuing. She is in the
teaching profession, a specialist in reading and we would have to consider the continuation
of that profession as well.
Mayor Ferre; What are some of the things about what you and your employer
I guess in this case it would be Mayor Bradley, have disagreed. Where have you had
your problems with the Mayor?
Mr. Miller; Disagreed?
Mayor Ferre; I am sure in 7 years or 5 years, you couldn't possibly have agreed
with everything that he has done, or everything you have done, Where have you had dis-
agreements,
22
Mr, Miller: We get along very Well,
Mayor Ferret I atn sure you do.
Mr, Miller: It would probably be in the area of, and this would be slight difference
of opinion, not disagreement, but in the area of scope of maybe attacking too many things,
too tarty problems.
Mayor Ferre: In his case or your case?
Mr, Miller : He is such an outgoing person, and is so willing to commit himself
to so many different enterprises. I sometimes try to hold him back a little bit so
we can devote much more energy to ----
Mayor Ferre: How much of your day do you spend with Mayor Bradley in your
present job?
Mr, Miller: That changes quite a bit. His schedule is very packed. I usually
see him in the morning and at the end of the day, when we travel we spend a considerable
amount of time together traveling. When we go to Washington I travel with him and repre-
sent him at the White House functions or other, ----
Mayor Ferre: How many special assistants does Mayor Bradley have?
Mr. Miller: There are three positions of special assistants. one is vacant,
one is held by another individual, a female that represents the mayor in a variety
of protocol functions.
Mayor Ferre: Strictly protocol?
Mr. Miller: Some in-house mayor's office administrative functions as well.
Mayor Ferre; For example, Manolo was deputy mayor, ---
Mr. MIller:He is no longer with us,
Mayor Ferre:--and filled one of those positions you are talking about.
Mr. Miller: Yes, he handled a much more administrative responsibilities.
Mayor Ferre: He was more involved in the administration?
Mr. Miller:Yes, and relationships with the city council.
Mayor Ferre: How would he be distinguished from your function?
Mr. Miller: I would be more administrative, --of running programs, running
departments, handling budgets, he would respond in the area of relating to all
of those commissions we talked about, of the variety of the police and fire
commission or the civil service commission, a whole range of things in transmitting
to them mayor's office policy, to all of those commissions, and handling that par-
ticular aspect.
Mayor Ferre: For example, if somebody in the police, if there was a particular
problem that arose out of the police department, and it came up through the police
commission, and it go into a difficult situation, the deputy Mayor would
be involved in that process as a liaison between the Mayor and the commission, --
Mr. Miller; That is entirely possible depending upon the nature of the issue.
It it were more than administrative issue, I could probably be involved in it,
Mayor Ferre; What would he get involved in?
W. Miller; Possibly more political issues.
Mayor Ferre:He handled more the political areas, and you the administraive?
Mr, Miller; Yes,
Mayor Ferre; How many deputy mayors are there in Los Angeles.
23
Mr. Miller: There are three special assistants, two of thet have the
additional honorary title of deputy mayor, 1 am one of the three, It is a noft=e:tisting
title in civil service; it is an honorary title,
Mayor Ferre: In a chart there would be the mayor and three positions under and
then most of the things under would come somehow fitting into one of those three slots,
Mr.Miller: That is correct,
Mayor Ferre: For example, the department of finance, would that fit under
your direction?
Mr, MIller: It would come through that chain,
Mayor Ferre: The head of finance, do you report directly to him?
Mr. Miller: We have an elected controller,
Mayor Ferre: The controller of Los Angeles is elected? So he doesn't report
to Mayor Bradley?
Mr. Miller:He doesn't have to.
Mayor Ferre:--but he does, because he is part of the same team.
Mr. Miller: The city attorney is elected, the controller is elected. We have
a treasurer as well, ---he is appointed just as a department head.
Mayor Ferre:--appointed by the Mayor?
Mr. Miller: ---yes, and reports through chain.
Mayor Ferre: For example, when you issue bonds, is that up the treasurer's
office?
Mr. Miller: Yes.
Mayor Ferre:Does he report to Bradley directley?
Mr. Miller: Yes, sir.
Mayor Ferre: Through you?
Mr. Miller: Yes, either through us or to the mayor directly, depending on the
issue.
Mayor Ferre: You said us, is it you or anyone of the three?
Mr. MIller: Yes.
Mayor Ferre: I see. There is a mention of fair housing, you mentioned it again
in your original presentation. What exactly did you do. Do you have a housing department?
Mr. Miller Yes we have a housing authority.
Mayor Ferre: Is it a commission or an authority?
Mr. Miller: A commission, correct.
Mayor Ferre; The mayor appoints the authority or the commission?
Mr, Miller: Yes. I was over that commission. They reported to me. I established the
policies for the mayor, and administered that particular effort. The fair housing effort
was one where we had a number of housing discrimination complaints still going on within
the city, 1 consulted with HUD on that particular issue, designed a proposal, was
successful in having it funded and we created a fair housing program, It is not nec-
essarily to interfer with the FEPC process, but to communicate, it is an information
dissemination device to the citizens, a place where they can go if they feel they
have been discriminated in housing or rental units, and they can get information
and assistance,
Mayor Ferre; Tell us about affirmative action and how were you involved in
24-
affirmative action it Los Angeles?
Mr. Miller: Well affirmative action is something of course that is close to
the mayor and is a part of my administrative style. I feel very keenly about affirm-
ative action. I feel the city government should be reflective of the community it
serves. We established affirmative action programs in a variety of our departments
and those departments that I created, when I entered government in Los Angeles, I
instituted an affirmative action program that was quite extensive and quite involved
in its creations. It involved in utilizing our community analysis bureau, as an
example to accurately determine.
Mayor Ferre: Is there a commission on that?
Mr. Miller: No.
Mayor Ferre: That reports directly to you, or to the
Mr. Miller: Yes. We have a city-wide affirmative plan now that reports to
the civil service commission.
Mayor Ferre: Oh,that goes through civil service?
Mr. Miller: I developed the plan, and implemented it in my departments, and
now it is affecting the entire city government.
Mayor Ferre: Let's take the city of Los Angeles, what is the population of blacks?
What is the total population?
Mr. Miller: Just under 3 million, it is approximately 18% black and approximately
18 1/2% Spanish surname.
Mayor Ferre: How about orientals or other minorities?
Mr. Miller: Approximately 5%.
Mayor Ferre: So you have close to 40% minorities, so called?
Mr. Miller: Yes.
Mayor Ferre: Let's take the police department, what percentage is black?
Mr. Miller: I don't have the figures exactly Mr Mayor. The police department
has exerted tremendous efforts in the recent past, we really didn't have that major
a problem in the police department. Our particular problem area happens to be our
fire department. We are still working on that particular issue.
Mayor Ferre: Let's take that one, what percentage of black firemen do you have,
what percentage Spanish surmane, what percentage of minority firemen do you have?
Mr. Miller: I can't testify to the exact figures, but they are significantly
below the appropriate ethinic parity in the population.
Mayor Ferre: Does that mean you have 40% minorities, is it under 20% or 10%
Mr. MIller: I would say it was in the 20 to 30 percent.
Mayor Ferre: What has been the impact of the affirmative action in the 3 years
you have been involved in it, and that Mayor Bradley has,----
Mr.Miller: The impact has, that we have been able to prove one very significant
point, that too many individuals in public life and public administration feel that
in order to achieve successful affirmative action program you must on the other hand
give up competency, and professionalism, We do not believe that that is the case. WE
have been able to show through a wide range of outreach programs and hiring procedures
and testing procedures that one can achieve an affirmative action balance and still
maintain truly professional and competent administrative structure. I would say that
that would be the primary success, the primary point that we have shown and proven
with our program in Los Angeles. Admittedly we have not had some of the same kinds of
problems as impacted as they are in some other cities, WE have not fortunately had
the depth of the problem that others have. In some of the departments that 1 administer
- 25
we now as an example have, it professional positions, not clerical, but have 53%
female, professional in out housing community development,
Mayor Fette: Clerical is not, - -
Mr. Miller:.==l at not counting clerical, excluding clerical,
Mayor Ferre:-=--53% female professional?
Mr. Miller: -correct, as well as appointing in decision making positions throughout
the government, women at the director's level, general manager level, the assistant
director level, ----
Mayor Ferre: Let me ask you this, the mayor appoints 250 commissioners, how many
of them are of a minority. That is something he has direct control of.
Mr.Miller: Oh, yes.
Mayor Ferre: What percentage is, ----
Mr. Miller: We have controlled that very appropriately. Whatever the appropriate
percentage are, we have a few extra percentage points.
Mayor Ferre: Are you telling me that 40% of the 250 commissioners are members
of some kind of minority?
Mr. Miller: That is correct.
Mayor Ferre: Women also, ----
Mr. Mlller: Yes. We have created a new commission on the status of women as well.
Mayor Ferre: You covered this a little bit but why don't you perhaps expand
a little bit, what are your career objectives?
Mr. Miller: I plan on staying in urban administration. I thoroughly enjoy it.
I like the challenge of urban administration, it is where the action is. I have talked
about the next decade in urban administration, I really think this is the most important
phase of how our democracy works in this country. I think the problems are going to
be solved at the local level, I think they have to be solved at the local level, and the
sr}ability of those local governmental structures, is what is vitally important to be
involved in that, is to me, exciting, and what I wish to do for my career. That is why
I am considering your city and would like to be successful in that consideration. It is
exciting.
Mayor Ferre: What do you feel, Jerry, is your biggest asset and your strength,
if you wereto come into this job? What is your biggest strength?
Mr. Miller: I think administration, firm administration, fiscally sound adminis-
tration, now that sounds to some very dry, but to me it isn't. It is very exciting.
The more efficient and effective local government is, the better we solve the problems
for the people in our communities. I have been able to bridge the gap between human
resource programming and straight administration. As I said earlier I academically
have experienced a considerable number of years in the human services as a social
scientist, but yet I think that administration is my strong suit. IN order to accomplish
all of those other things you must run a strong, viable government.
Mayor Ferre: Frim 1967 to 1971, which is 4 years, you were with the city of
Los Angeles in the senior project coordinator, director of manpower programs and
that was in the office of urban development. Who was the head of the manpower program?
Mr. Miller: I was. At that particular time, there was no director, there was no
department that there is now.
Mayor Ferre: The senior project coordinantor was it, he was the top guy?
Mr. Miller: That is correct.
Mayor Ferre; You had a staff of 105 people who worked under you and who did
you report to.
Mr, Miller: At that time, to the mayor Yorty,-.or his special assistants,--==
Mayor Ferre: There was a special assistant then?
Mr. Miller: Yet. That is when I first entered into city government in tos
Angeles, and created all of those programs, under the economic opportunity act-
-y=
Mayor Ferre: So, from that job, where there was no director, but you were in
effect acting director as the senior project coordinator,- ----in 1971 you went with
National League of Cities.
Mr. Miller: Correct.
Mayor Ferre: When was Mayor Bradley president of the National League of Cities?
Mr. Miller: A year and a half ago.
Mayor Ferre: This was prior to his being president of the National League.
Mr. Miller: Oh, yes. IN fact he became an officer, second vice-president
of the National League of Cities. He was the first council memeber to become an
officer of that organization.
Mayor Ferre: You were there for 2 years, 2 and one-half years, then Bradley
won and you came into his administration?
Mr. Miller: Yes.
Mayor Ferre: And you have been there for 3 years? Previous to that you were
in Mexico studying and previous to that you were in chapter 13 and bankruptcy
court for a couple of years, and then prior to that in the police department of
the county.
Mr. Mlller: Correct.
Mayor Ferre: Your city experience was, 4 years as a project coordinator in
manpower, and 3 years as special assistant to the mayor. That is a completely different
system from what you would be coming into in the city of Miami. What in your opinion
is your evaluation of the little you have seen, obviously of the city and the people
here, how would you make that transition from a different form of government to one which
functions really diametrically opposed to what you have experienced.
Mr. Miller: In one respect, it is different and yet it also isn't. A good
administration, is good administration. In creating and administering the departments
that I have, and administering budgets of over 150 millions of dollars, I think has
gained me the administrative capacity and abilities.
Mayor Ferre: That is not the directionl am really questioning. I am not
questioning your competency, what I am asking, really, let me come out, ---
Mr. Miller: The city manager form of government is not strange to me. I
have studied it through the league of cities and through my teaching capacity
at UCLA, in urban administration.
Mayor Ferte: What I'm saying is in your present capacity you ate trot
the top administrator Mayot Bradley, The Mayor is the top administrator and in
your previous capacity, in both of your ptevious jobs you ate not the chief adm=
insttatot, so either the Mayor was ot you had a department ot somebody, so on,
Now, my question to you is then this would then be your first job as I see your
record as being the Chief Administrator or whatever it is that you're involved
in. In other words, that you don't have anybody above you as an Administtatot.
Mr, Jerome Millet: Yes, I'm Mayor Bradley's Chief Administrator. He is the
Chief Executive Officer of the Government, You are correct sir this would be
the first time in that particular class title.
Mayor Ferret Jerry, don't misunderstand, I'm not in any way criticizing .
Mr. Jerome Miller: No, it's a different form of government and different titles
Mayor Ferret I just want. I want your view, in your words as to how you would
adapt yourself to the form of government where you'll become for the first time
in your career be Chief Administrator of something and then you would only have
a responsibility to a Commission that would set the policy, see which is completely
different.
Mr. Jerome Miller: It is not that different from what I am used to in Los
Angeles. In presenting the alternatives to a fifteen member city council.
Mayor Ferre: But you don't work with the fifteen member city council. You work
for the Mayor at his will.
Mr. Jerome Miller: Yes, that is correct but as a Department head. I also work
for the City Council, you see the Departments respond to both, they have to
take all policy issues to the City Council, they have to present all of the
alternatives and to the contracts and so forth to the City Council so it is
basically the same relationship of relationing to a group of elected officials
laying out what the issues . Laying for policies, the decisions that have to
be made and the alternatives and the implementations of each of those alternatives
then once that policy is established I carry it out.
Mayor Ferre: You've got that in dual capacity ---- because that is your job.
Well, how many other department heads are there in the City of Los Angeles?
Mr. Jerome Miller: Other Department heads?
Mayor Ferre: Yes.
Mr. Miller: There are about 30 other department heads. There are none that
have the same responsibilities and relationships that I have.
Mayor Ferre: So of the 31 department heads, you're the only one that actually
serves in the dual capacity and you're also being a administrative special
assistant. Any other questions? Rose, you have any questions? Well, thank
you very much Mr. Miller we're very much grateful for your presence here .
Mr. Miller: I appreciate coming.
Mayor Ferre: You're be here through tomorrow, won't you?
Mr. Miller: Yes, we're planning on it. So we'll be in contact with you. I'm
sure we'll be talking to you over the next day. Thank you very much.
Mayor Ferre: Paul, while we're waiting, is our next one at five.
Mr. Andrews: Yes, but we telephoned Mr. Stierheim and he's here outside.
Mayor Ferre: We'll take a five minute break, But I'll tell you I also have
a question Mr. Luis Lauredo was here. I guess he's gone now. The Chamber of
Commerce of the Americas requested $7,500 and we passed that in now. As you
may recall we passed that. Mr. Sabinas came here and we-- the problem is
that you were going to work that out by the day and I just want to know where
we stand, because I got a copy of this letter.
Mr. Andrews; I have worked it out but it's conditioned on my corning to.the
the City Commission with reference to the whole budget problem that we have.
I've resolved a good portion of it but of course it depends on the Commission
1
apptoptiating Federal Revenue Sharing Funds and within that apptoptiation on
providing the $7,500 I've already given directions to that area.
Mayot Ferret Well, that'll be on the 22nd of this month?
Mr. Andrews: Yes,
Mayor Ferre: All right. Thank you. We'11 take a five minute break now.
I'd like to take this opportunity to introduce Mrs. Stierheim, Margaret who
is with Merritt today. We're happy to have you here. Mr. Stietheim, we've
been taking about an hour and five minutes or an hour and ten minutes to inter-
view the candidates, I would be very grateful if we approach it this way.
Fifteen minutes is your time to tell us whatever you want to about yourself,
about how you see the job, about how you see your job in Pinnellas County or
Clearwater, the City of Miami or you can tell us about the double taxation law-
suit that you were somewhat involved in. Anything that you think is appropriate
to take fifteen minutes to do. And then we have a series of questions that are
recommended to us by Arthur D. Little and we will try to follow that format with
you and from that will come a whole series of other questions, so it's about
ten minutes to six. Why don't you take fifteen. You know, we're not clocking
you or anything, so it's a relative thing, if you only want to take three minutes
or five minutes.
Mr. Merritt Stierheim: Thank you members of the Commission. I learned of some
of the questions from Jack, but I didn't learn of this one. You've got my back-
ground I understand and I won't (pardon me) Jack Eads... You've got my back-
ground and I won't burden you with my experience or education or anything like
that. Just perhaps a little few observations about myself. I consider myself
a professional in this field and I'm proud of it. I've enjoyed tremendously
public responsibility. I found it challenging and demanding and well,there's
been opportunities to look into the private sector, without too much equivoc-
ation. I enjoyed staying in the activity that I was involved in. As you know
I spent between 8 and 9 years here. They were productive years, afformative
years, learning years, they were years following education and military service
It got to the point where I felt that it was necessary if I was going to fly
out of the nest to do that and to assume the responsibility of a Manager's
position which I did, that was an very enriching experience personally, profess-
ionally and when that no longer held the challenge that it did initally, I went
to the County and that has been a provocative experience. When inquiries were
made about the City of Miami I was of course interested. I didn't work here
for that period of time and become involved and interested in the City without
having some interest and be flattered to be approached and hence we are today.
Perhaps, the dual taxation thing would be appropriate. It seems to me that this
is something that you're concerned about. Being on the City vineyard here in
Miami and in Clearwater for a good number of years I've well appreciated the
concern of the municipal residents and elected officials over the question of
dual and double taxation and I've followed closely, not only the provision of
the constitution of the State of Florida which expressly provided that municipal
residents should not be taxed or service is provided in the unincorporated area
but also the enabling legistlation, which came out of two sesssion of the legis-
lation. In discussions with the board of County Commissions, they authorized
some administrative review of exactly what was involved in Pinnellas County
and after quite a bit of research using the test of exclusivity, which is the
terminology in the Constitution. We submitted a report on those services that
were in our opinion exclusively provided in the unincorporated area by the
County, which of course, were taxed, or the tax was levied County -wide some
75% of people live in the City and roughly the same equivalent of the taxpayers.
This was a difficult recommendation to make for a County Commission. Historically,
cities have pioneered in this effort but for a county to do it was a little bit
different and I give great credit to the County Commission for having the political
intestional fortitude to pursue it. Because it would have been probably a lot
more easier and probably a lot more political palatable to ignore it. The tax
was levied, an excess of 1.7 mills in the unincorporated areas. We created a
municipal service taxing district, There were citizens organizations formed.
Money raised and a lawsuit filed. And as you make know we were successful in
the Circuit Court having achieved, I think, a very strong and favorable ruling
by Judge Walker, which is now on appeal to the Supreme Court and should be
heard within the next 30 days. Mayor, - I'd rather than have me stand up here
and make a speech.
Mr. Plummer; Let me ask this because I'm a little lost here Mayor?,
Mr, Stierheim; Yes sir.
29
Mr. Plummet: Ate you saying that the County on their out initiative created
this special taxing district?
Mr, Stietheim: That's correct,
Mr. Plummer: And that the County is defending the position by a group of un-
incorporated people who are bringing suit?
Mr. Stierheim: That's correct.
Mayor Ferre: Were you the Administrator, the Manager during this process?
Mr. Stierheim: That's correct.
Mayor Ferre: Did this process start while you were Manager of Clearwater or
when you were Manager of Pinnellas County?
Mr. Stierheim: No, after I was Administrator of Pinnellas County.
Mayor Ferre: Well, did you have a lot to do with this coming about Mr. Stier-
heim?
Mr. Stierheim: Yes sir.
Mayor Ferre: All right. In other words, the point I'm trying to make to you
is that Mayor Stierheim is being a little bit modest and we have a reporter
here from St. Petersburg newspaper if we could ask him, but as I understand you
were pretty much of a major factor in this whole evolution. Naturally, the
Commission really had to make a decision.
Mr. Stierheim: The Commission had to assume the responsibility and the political
liability for it, but candidly with no regrets I might add. I have personally
been a target of some of the raft of people in the unincorporated area and that's
understandable and it's part of the job.
Mr. Plummer: But Mayor, let me ask you this question. What has been the relation-
ship with the cities? Has it been that they feel that the 1.7 mills ; is that
fair or have they gone beyond and said, "well it should be more", what is the
city's relationship ----
Mr. Stierheim: This is a very complicated subject. The cities were beyond the
Mayor's and so forth and so on. The City of St. Petersburg, which is the largest
city wasn't satisfied. They released the study that 2% of the Sheriff's budget
applied to the municipalities and made other contentions and felt that the fig-
ures should be higher and their's adequate documentation to support this. When
we analyze for example, the Corrections Division of the Sheriff budget which was
a rather substantial portion of his 8 million dollar budget. We determine that
65% of the crimes of the defendants that crimes had originated within the corp-
orate limits of St. Petersburg, so that, you know, if you were to apply that
analysis,that 65% of the correction activity was a direct and measurable benefit
to the City of St. Petersburg in core city or the major city let's say of Pinnell-
as County. And when you took that percentage of that budget and you applied it
to the other ancillary benefits of all of the detective vice, the investigations
intelligence, drug, narcotic, so forth and so on,which in Pinnellas County the
bulk of which takes place within the corporate limits. The benefit cost ratio
was in our opinion favorable to the City of St. Petersburg and so it's very
complicated. I'm not trying to make it more complicated, but maybe you're getting
a picture of how this thing can get very complicated and we felt that this test
of exclusivity, where the County does not fix one pot hole within the corporate
limits of that city, but we do not install any traffic signals, unlike here where
you've got county -wide traffic engineering, But there we make the city pay for
a portion of that, We provide no sheriff's patrol service in the city. In fact
two or three of the cities contract with the sheriff may pay for that service.
So the test of exclusivity is clearly met. And so on down the line.
Mayor Ferre; All right. Mr. Stierheim let's go down the list of these questions
that Arthur D. Little recommended. Let me start of asking you in your last job
or your present job, excuse me, what are some of the things that you spent the
most time on, in your 40 hours that you spend on your job, or 50 hours?
Mr. Stierheim: In the County?
Mayor Ferre; And perhaps you might cover it in the city too. What was the special
thing that you gave your most time to, the emphasis?
30
Mt. Stietheitnt I would say there have been three areas. Dual taxation Was
obvious a major one,
Mayor Ferret That's only the last year and a half.
Mr. Stierheimt That's right, I'm talking about in the County, the last three
years, I would say the development of a major of capital improvement bond issue
(231 million dollar) bond issue.
Mayor Ferret 231 million, did that pass?
Mr. Stierheimt No sir.
Mayor Ferret That's the one that's on the ballot in June.
Mr. Stierheim: Coming up for referendum, which involved a lot of preparatory
work and discussion with the board and so forth and so on, The development of
a home rule charter which is also coming up for referendum. Those three areas
I would say were the principle ones, although there's another one and that is
water. I can remember that I have half time City Manager in July of 73 and
half-time County Administrator and on July llth for Southwest Florida Manage-
ment District announced that they were going to cut our water supply in Pinnellas
County about 20% and that resulted in a five months building moratorium because
of the inavailability of water and there has insued a struggle which is still
ragging now in the halls of Tallahassee in the Governor's Office over the question
of better representation. Over the question of the water crop theory vs. water
as a public resource and so forth. So I would say that "water" has been the
major occupier of my time and then in a secretary fashion the other three areas.
In the city if you want me to keep going back?
Mayor Ferre: Yea, I want you to cover it with the city.
Mr. Stierheim: In the City, we also had a bond issue. We had housing referendum
that required a referendum in Pinnellas County for public housing, that required
a great deal of effort and planning. The acquisition of sand key (I would say_
was a major activity which, if you're not familiar with the area would be meaning-
less to you, but it's quite important to that area, so one of the keys off the
mainland that the City had long desired for public recreation.we were success-
ful in securing about 60 some odd acreas of that for recreation purposes. Off
the top of my head those were the major ones.
Mayor Ferre: All right, well, in conjunction with what do you feel you've done
particularly well, what do you think have been your strengths of your job?
Mr. Stierheim: I think developing in my own way as an Administrator or as a
Manager I strive to develop a sense of teamwork among, not only the Commission,
my superiors, but also my staff and my department directors.
Mayor Ferre: And yet you didn't mention that as one of the key things that you
spent a lot of time on.
Mr. Stierheim: Well, that's an ongoing daily activity that's ever prevalent.
Mayor Ferre: Isn't there a contradiction between --you mentioned water and you
mentioned the home rule charter and double taxation, but you didn't mention staff
or team work or work with the Commission and yet when you're asked what the most
important accomplishment is you mentioned something but you didn't cover in the
previous question. Isn't there an inherit contradiction in that?
Mr. Stierheim: Well I'd like not to think so. ---- perhaps its a question of
sematics. You asked the activity and I was thinking in terms of something tangible
or identifiable.
Mayor Ferre: The question was how you spend your time in work hours? You've
got 40 or 50 hours you work a week, what time do you dedicate to what things
and then you answered that. Now, I ask you what are you most proud of or what
have you accomplished,
Mr. Stierheim: All right. Well, now that I better understand what you're after
let me go back then, I would say spending time with my Commission keeping them
informed, hopefully developing what I call teamwork, sometimes disearnment or
the frustration of the news media because I'm not happy all the time with three
votes I'd rather have four or five, And developing among my staff an atmosphere
�- 31
Where I Would hope that healthy ego's can petfotm nightly. That's one of thy
goals and one of my tathet constant activities,
Mr, Plummer: 11etritt in yout time in office in Pinellas of the West Coast,
have you accepted any othet offets or invitations to approach other cities
fot employment?
Mr, Stierheim: I had before I went to the County. 1 have been accepted at
Tucson Arizona.
Mr, Plummer: As a City Manager?
Mr, Stierheim: As a City Manager, yes sit.
Mr. Plummer: You did go there and = -
Mr. Stierheim: No sir. I did not. They had a nation-wide search and I was
offered the position .
Mr. Plummer: Site unseen.
Mr. Stierheim: Oh no. I went there four days. And, they had seven council-
man and a rather extensive interview process. They brought in seven couples
and so forth.
Mr. Plummer: But, that's the only place during your ten year on the West Coast?
Mr. Stierheim: That's correct. I turned down the County Administrator's position
on --well I can't say that it was formally offered, but I turned it down twice
before I went.
Mr. Plummer: What has been your personal experience in the area of pensions?
Mr. Stierheim: Well, of course, I had some experience here. I didn't serve
on the Pension Board per se but I was responsible for the budget for Mr. Reese
and I was involved in the pension program in the City of Clearwater. In the
County, of course where part of the state pension plan, so for the last three
years I've had no direct involvement.
Mr. Plummer: Your personal experience with computers?
Mr. Stierheim: Well, I had quite a bit of experience in Clearwater. We did
have a central computer operation. Primarily, billing ,tabulating and so forth.
We were getting into more sophisticated software at the time that I left. It
was structured while I was there and I was responsible for structuring. In
Pinellas County we've got an interesting situation. We have five constitutional
officers and prior to the time that I came their there was a borad of governors
formed over to administer over the centralized data processing system which is
a very sophisticated system and through some in-house struggles within the
courthouse and so forth, the Board of County Commissioners abolished that and
placed the data processing function under me. In an effort to rectify some
problems that have been long standing in the development of that system. And
I am rather heavily involved in trying to overcome these i.e.'s, trying to
maintain the intergity of the centralized system affording the constitutional
officers the opportunity to have front end equipment that interfaces with the
centralized computer, but as opposed to developing the spinoff many computers.
operations which while on the service may appeal to save money in effect cost
money because of a duplication of core and capacity.
Mr. Plummer: Have you ever been in private business?
Mr. Stierheim: No sir.
Mr. Plummer: Not at all?
Mr. Stierheim: I've been privately employed, but no I've never --
Mr. Plummer: You haven't been in business for yourself?
Mr, Stierheim: I have not, no sir,
Mr, Plummer; What has been your personal relationship to the Civil Service
Board?
r 32 -
Mr. Stietheitti: Again, when 1 was here in addition to my budget responsibility
I was responsible for personnel. And as such I wotked closely with the Executive
Director of the personnel Board and the Board. At that time we had 4200 employees
In Clearwater we had an independent Civil Service Board with five tnembets, two
of whom were appointed by the employees, two by the Commission and one elected
by the boatd. And an Executive bisector who was appointed by that board. I had
very effective relations with the board and the Executive Director, professional
and cordial. And Pinellas County we also have an independent board with ati indi
ependent Personnel Director. In fact, we've just had a consolidated personnel
system. There ate still one or two of the constitutional officers II who ate
out, this is part of the problem. Same thing on data processing. So I'd say
I've had extensive experience with independent Civil Service Boards and independ'
ent Personnel Directors.
Mr. Plummer: How would you charaterize your personal relations with the employees?
Mr. Stierheim: Excellent.
Mr. Plummer: Do do your own negotiations for contracts?
Mr. Stierheim: I was asked that a little earlier by some of the employee represent-
atives. I have not at this point.
Mr. Plummer: What I'm asking, do you have a professional on staff at all times,
do you do it yourself?
Mr. Stierheim: Up to this point I've been able to do it myself.
Mr. Plummer: You do not have a positon of labor negotiators?
Mr. Stierheim: That's correct.
Mayor Ferre: Tell us about your weakness Mr. Stierheim. We all have weakness,
we don't want a general confession. We just want the admission of what your
weakness are if you have any, maybe you don't have any.
Mr. Stierheim: I'm human I guess.
Mayor Ferre: That's not necessary.
Mr. Stierheim: And I have a certain degree of sensivity. I can get my feeling
hurt, I Guess like anybody. If I had to criticize myself then I guess maybe what
brings this in mind I just had a chance to address a graduate of a Master's Class
of Public Administration. I did criticize myself because I sometimes feel I don't
get out in the field enough as much as I like. I get nailed down in the office
and get wrapped up with things. I would like to spend more time in the field and
I constantly self fatigue myself on the allocation of my most critical resource
which is time. I'm not always certain if I'm spending the time you know where it
would be the most productive. I'd like to think that I do and apparently I've
been successful, I feel I have. So maybe that's --
Mayor Ferre: Your average work week. I'm not talking about
Your average work week, how many hours you put into the job?
Mr. Stierheim: Both at the office at home?
Mayor Ferre: Well, let's say at the office, how much time you spend on the job?
Mr. Stierheim: Well, I put in at least 40- 50, but I do things at home too. I
take things home with me. I mean, I'll bring a box home and spend three or four
hours on the weekend doing things that would take eight(8) hours in the office,
so and then I spend time on the phone at night and so forth -- sometimes at the
constellation of my wife.
Mayor Ferre: Do you see yourself as organized individual, discipline person in
the sense of setting goals and meet them and you guess requirements?
Mr. Stierheim: Very much so.
Mayor Ferre; Are you that way with people that are working under you; Do you
demand the same kind of discipline from them?
- 33
Mr, Stietheim: I set specific performance tequirements and I'm to hedge this
a little to this extent that where I think it's necessary, I mean, in a Manager
if he's going to be effective he's got to have feedback and control systems,
Some can be mechanical and statistical or others can be inter personal and where
I'm not getting the kind of response that I think I need or that the Commission
is looking for then I'm going to become considerably more insistence and vocal,
Mayor Terre: What's that mean?
Mr. Stierheim: That means that I'm going to say it when I want it and if I don't
get it then I'm going to know the reason why.
Mayor Ferre: Does that mean you're intolerant with people?
Mr, Stierheim: Not at all. Extremely tolerant.
Mayor Ferre: To what point? I mean, there's a point where you say, ok you're
fired, now when does that happen?
Mr. Stierheim: Well, that's kind of a broad question. It happens when I lose
confidence in that individual and I don't think that individual is responsive
to my needs. Now, if there are plausible and explainable reasons for delaying
or whatever, that's one thing. Repetitiveness and that problem would be another.
Mayor Ferre: Have you fired somebody in the County job for example?
Mr.Stierheim: Oh sure.
Mayor Ferre: That report directly to you? Top people?
Mr. Stierheim: Yes sir.
Mayor Ferre: How about in your city job?
Mr. Stierheim: Yes sir. That's correct. Well, when you fire --
Mayor Ferre: I mean they're not working there anymore.
Mr. Stierheim: Yes.
Mayor Ferre: They may have left on their own. I'm not saying that they were
fired, that you know --
Mr. Stierheim: I understand what you're saying.
Mayor Ferre: Let me ask you about the structure of the job you have now? liow
many departments do you have?
Mr. Stierheim: A total of - major departments I would say fifteen or sixteen.
Mayor Ferre: Do you they all report to you, those department heads? Isn't that
an awful lot of people?
Mr. Stierheim: No sir. I don't think so. I have four assistants in my office.
Each has specific areas of responsibility. Day to day routine, communication
between my office and departments or vis-a-vis is carried out by them.
Mayor Ferre: What's their title?
Mr. Stierheim: Well, I have an Assistant County Administrator and Assistant
in charge of Urban Metropolitan Planning & Development. He handles all planning
zoning shadetree enforcement, environmental considerations, air quality monitoring,
site plan review, planning & zonning.
Mayor Ferre: You've got of these people?
Mr. Stierheim: I have four in different areas of responsibility.
Mayor Ferre: And the sixteen report through those four.
Mr. Stierheim: Or their is always an open door . I mean, there's never any
question about any department director getting into my office,
34 —
1.
Mayor Ferre: So the Lout people ate sttictly staff, they're not line,
Mt, Stietheim: Well one of the four is the Assistant County Administrator.
He is lined in the extent that he can make decisions, he certainly makes
decisions in my absence, And is the one who is more directly over Public
Works, my major department, water and pollution control and so forth,
Mayor Ferret Do you think you could run an operation where you had sixteen
people reporting directly to you without anybody in between you and them?
Mr. Stierheim: Maybe I'm being immodest, but yes,
Mayor Ferret Have you ever tried that or would you perfer to work through
Administrative Assistance?
Mr, Stierheim: I think it would be impractical, you know, if you're talking
about an organization of any size. Now, if I had a platoon with 16 men in it
I could certainly run it.
Mayor Ferre: No, we're talking about a city --
Mr. Stierheim: Right.
Mayor Ferre: How many employees does the County have in Pinellas County?
Mr. Stierheim: It has a total of 2400 not counting about about a thousand
EJP(Emergency Jop Program),
Mayor Ferre: So you've got 2400 plus the Emergency Manpower?
Mr. Stierheim: Directly under me I have about 2,000, because you have your
constitutional loses.
Mayor Ferre: How about in the City of Clearwater, how many people do you have
there?
Mr. Stierheim: When I left it was close to 1200.
Mayor Ferre: What was the budget when you left Clearwater? 0r today, roughly?
Mr. Stierheim: I would say about 30 some odd million, about 40 million something
like that.
Mayor Ferre: How much is the County budget?
Mr. Stierheim: 156 million.
Mayor Ferre: 156 million.
Mr. Stierheim: Capital and operating, yes sir.
Mayor Ferre: That's both capital and operating. You don't have your school
system under you ---
Mr. Stierheim: No sir.
Mayor Ferre; Which is the largest department in Pinellas County?
Mr. Stierheim: Public Works.
Mayor Ferre; Public Works?
Mr. Stierheim: Yes.
Mayor Ferre: How many employees there?
Mr. Stierheim: Right off hand I don't know. I'm going to say about 500.
Mayor Ferre; About 500?
Mr, Stierheim; Yes sir,
Mayor Ferre: How about public safety, police specifically?
Mr, Stierheim; The Sheriff is not under me. I'm responsible for submitting his
- 35
budget, but the Sheriff is a constitutional officer,
Mayor Fette: He tuns for offices He's elected countywide and he tepotts to
the people directly?
Mr. Stierheim' That's correct. 1 have housekeeping, budgetary responsibilities
of a horizontal nature, if you understand what I mean? 1 submit his budget to
the board, review it, cut it, he can appeal it to the board obviously,
Mayor Ferret Well, let's take fot example in the area of Affirmative Action,
in other words you ate not then directly responsible fot the police and sheriff's
office -_-
Mr. Stierheim: That's correct.
Mayor Ferre: The sheriff is?
Mr. Stierheim: That's correct.
Mayor Ferre: What are you responsible for , for Affirmative Action?
Mr. Stierheim: All employees and departments under the Board of County Commissioners
who are under me.
Mayor Ferre: For example, do you have a fire department?
Mr. Stierheim: No sir.
Mayor Ferre: Well, let's take Public Works then. What the minority make-up of
your community?
Mr. Stierheim: We have- about between 8 & 9% of county -wide are Black.
Mayor Ferre: Do you have any other minorities?
Mr. Stierheim: None of any ----
Mayor Ferre: Definable miniorities under the federal statue?
Mr. Stierheim: That's correct.
Mayor Ferre: Well what percentage for example of the people in Public Works
are minorities?
Mr. Stierheim: I would say under the Board of Commissioners we have about between
3 and 4% are Black. Now, I want to give you an explanation for that.
Mayor Ferre: Yea, tell me how that's involved and what you're doing about it.
Mr. Stierheim: We have an affirmative program that was put into effect in 1975.
We've not had any complaints filed against the County. In Pinellas County in
the principle Black area where the bulk of population lives is in the City of
St. Petersburg. The bulk of the County Officers are in Clearwater. We do have
some Black population in the City of Clearwater, but there is a distance of some
22 miles thereabout with not the best mass transit system There are two transit
systems and I think there's some logistical reasons why the County does not have
a higher percentage of Black employees.
Mayor Ferre: Well, let me ask you this? You got 16 department heads for Assist-
- ant as 20 top post. How many minority members do you have out of 20?
Mr, Stierheim: I have two lady department heads, I have one Assistant Department
Director, who is Black. I believe that's it.
Mayor Ferre: There's no Department Directors or any of the four that are up --
that are Black, but there are two women directors?
Mr, Stierheim: Yes sir,
Mayor Ferre: Tell us what's been your greatest frustration or disappointment in
your present job and why and I apologize , because I know this is a difficult
question, you have a job and you have your own newspaper taking taking down every
thing you say and I recognize that this is a very difficult question that has to
be asked and I apologize for asking it, but it does have to be answered.
-- 36
Mr. Stierheimt That's all tight. I dontt Bind answeting it because it has to
do with the news media. My ptinciple frustration has been in trying to get
told through the fourth estate activities in the County that I think ate prod=
'uctive and meaningful to people of Pinellas County and deserving of more attent=
ion than the sensational or negative items that seems to end on date the front
pages of out newspapers
Mayor Ferret With all due respects to the fourth estate hete you think that
the situation is any better in this community?
Mr. Stierheim: It probably isn't.
Mayor Ferret I guess the next job is somewhat related to that and I'm not
going to phrase it the way it says. It says, what are some of the reasons
you would be leaving the job, I won't quite put it that way, let's say --
why would you have an interest in this particular job? I recognize that you
did not apply for the job and we've had a hard time reaching you and you haven't
been overly receptive or should I say that you've been rather precautious and
I understand that perfectly well. But the fact that you're standing here obviously
means that you have responded to order search and request and you do have an
interest so let's put it on a negative and a positive, rather than a negative
basis. What's the attraction? You're making $52,000, you're at the top of a
-- you're doing pretty well.
Mr. Stierheim: Yes sir. I said in some of my opening remarks that having worked
for the City of Miami between 8 and 9 years and worked hard I might add. I
did not leave without feelings of attachment. Through the years I've been inter-
ested in what has happened here. I've followed activities and as a result and
another fact of life is that there's a vacancy in the City Manager's position
the City of Miami doesn't occur everyday I'm glad to say that. And as a result
when it did occur being invited I was happy to come down and talk with you and
I say that in all sincerity. NOw, I want to say in the same breath as you all
know I'm very productively involved where I'm at and we have certain things
underway in this referendum which well enhances an uphill battle or we're going
to work like the devil and see the ---- so it's kind of delicate how you
would respond to this kind of thing and how you handle yourself. Of course, in
the a---- sunshine that we all mass in it is sometimes awkward.
Mayor Ferre: Well, let me ask you this? If you were to be the successful
candidate here. When would you be available, would you have a conflict with that
referendum in June? When would you be available?
Mr. Stierheim: If you were to decide and I were to decide and we came to an
understanding I could not in good conscience with any professional sense of
responsible leave until after the referendum in June which is scheduled for
June 8th.
Mayor Ferre: Our problem, of course is that even though you were knowledgable
with the City of Miami 9 years ago and there are a lot of things I'm sure the
same somewhat a different city in some aspects.
Mr. Stierheim: There's no question about it. Yes sir.
Mayor Ferre: And Mr. Andrews has been really overly kind with his time staying
through July 30th, that would not give you too much time to overlap and we've
always felt that it's important t1at whoever takes this job on would want to
be available during the budget process. Of course, isn't that far away and I'm
sure the telephones will be going back and forth. How do you think you could
fit into that?
Mr. Stierheim: I mean I know my own perimeters and like I say I couldn't come
before June 8th. I would want to submit my budget to the Board of County
Commissioners.
Mayor Ferre: When is that?
Mr. Stierheim: I think things could be worked out if there is a real desire to
work them out. At the time that I went over to Pinellas County, for example,
I had the unique opportunity to submit a budget to both the City and the County
which was done and both were adopted, So like you say the phones are there and
the weekends are there, I think that bridge could be done,
Mayor Ferre: You mentioned attachment to the City of Miami, does that mean
that you also would attachment to establish things here and many of the people
and this of course again is a difficult question that has to be asked, Most of
37
the people that are hete in the upper echelons of the City ate for the most part
people that you ate acquainted with when you worked here as Assistant City
Manager with Mr: Reese. What do you mean by attachment and how does that fit
in and again 1 apologize fot the very difficult question?
Mr. Stierheim: 1 think it's a fait question and one that 1 can undetstand you
all have an interest in. When I come back I don't know where the remetnberance
of things passed you never really find theta again but it is pleasant to come
back. There are great changes and gteat problems quite obviously that you're
much more aware of than I am. 1 do have some friendships here they're limited.
There ate many people that I know that I can say hello to and shake hands. Now
does that obligates me to a specific course of action then I would suggest that
you put that out of your mind. I would be my own man and I'd call the shots
the way I saw them and the way that I saw them I would hope would be in the
best interest of the City of Miami.
Father Gibson: Mr, Mayor, I hope - we heard something and I hope the newspaper
would write it. I could appreciate the candidate's position and the thing that
he said that was very important was if you choose him and he choose's you, don't
overlook that, so that the people back home need not think that we have chosen
him, nor that he has chosen us. I think that's very important . We go through
the same thing in the ministry. Because we go and be interviewed doesn't mean
we're going to tangle, you know, I mean, I hope everybody understands that Paul,
the protection of that candidate and for our protect good too. If we have a
meeting of the minds then we'll sit down';he says:`.I thought we ought to put that
on the table because so often newspaper write,man,and when you get back home
you says good god did I really say that. Ask me about that (you know), so I thought
it's best to say that.
Mr. Stierheim: Thank you very much. I agree with that.
Mayor Ferre: Tell us about your relationship with your employer, now I guess
that would be the Chairman and the County Commission?
Mr. Stierheim: I feel that I could use as a reference Mr. Mayor, every elected
official for whom I've served. Including two that are in jail. (laughter) ---
If you want to try to explain it.
Mayor Ferre: Why don't you elaborate. (laughter
Mr. Stierheim: Through my career I'll always be able to say that but I'm kind
of happy to be able to say that after 15 or 16 years. When I went to Pinellas
and maybe this will explain another comment as well for you. When I went to
Pinellas County there was a series of expos--- by the St. Petersburg Times
who is the writer that's here and they were talking about zoning and so forth
and so on. And an alledged of mishandling of zoning, public trust and what —have —
you and I was admittedly nieve. because I believe that all was good and proper
and so forth and I made the trip to the courthouse and subsequent events proved
that the newspaper was right.
38
Mt. Stierheim: -- --z= Certainly the newspaper was tights but I've maintained
that I think that = with the same fetvot that they wete teporting on the wrong
doings I `would of liked to'0K4some equal space given to out managed growth
programs and our water efforts and all of the other constructive things that
people were laboring long and hard to achieve and so that was a patt of that
frustration. However, I would still use those two as references end they might
surprise the againolf you want to object to them.
Mayor Ferre: All tight. For the record, I might say I have talked to several
people and in county and what Mr. Stierheim is saying really pans out.
Mayor Hogan (is that his name).
Mr. Stierheim: Yes sir. He was the Mayor of Clearwater a while ago.
Mayor Ferre: Clearwater was very specially complimentary of Mr. Stierheim.
As I understand Mayor Hogan is kind of an institution. wasn't he for many years?
Mr. Stierheim: Served four terms as Mayor, ran unopposed, I think his last term.
I think he was president of the State League of Municipalities, two terms as
Commissioner. He's h6W 74 years old.
Mayor Ferre: Seems to be a highly respected individual and he seeks to what I
understand was a very strong type of a Mayor.
Mr. Stierheim: Yes. sir.
Mayor Ferre: In a weak Mayor form of Government, but ---
Mr. Stierheim: That's correct. He had the statute and had the respect.
Mayor Ferre: Had the respect of the community and so on. So, he went out of
his way to be very complimentary and I've mentioned this with other people that
have been interviewed here and I just want to make mention for the record here.
Mr. Stierheim: Thank you.
Mayor Ferre: Tell us now that I've paid you that compliment or passed on the
compliment . Now, tell us where you disagreed with Mayor Hogan and with your
Commission and the Chairman. Where have you had your problems with . I'm sure
not everything has been perfect and you've had differences. What are they?
Mr. Stierheim: Well, currently we have one Commissioner who certainly very
politically, a student. I think I enjoy his support, I know I do, and I have
great respect for him, but he is actively campaigning against the bond issue.
He has a philosophic difference with bonding and try as I may, I have not been
able to convince him to change his mind. He's also campaigning against the
charter, which presents a unique situation, not only for me but his four colleague,
because they're out actively supporting the issues and carrying out the majority
wishes of the board, I am too and we're very careful that we don't get on the
same program together or maybe I am more careful than he is, but that's been a
problem. When I think of other areas of difficulty I candidly -- I've had a
few recommendations go against me, none that I felt --- I've had a few times
where I've had department directors standup because they and I --- they had a
different approach than I did and I'd make my recommendation and they'd make
their's and the board would go along with the department head which is fine with
me(I mean as long as the fact, you know, constructive conflict) I think is healthy
and I don't have any trouble with constructive conflict and I don't think any-
body loses his face from it.
Mayor Ferre: Are you telling me that you permit your department heads to come
up before the elected officials and present an opposing view to yours?
Mr. Stierheim: Yes sir.
Mayor Ferre: You don't work that out administratively?
Mr. Stierheim: Well, you know, we sit down and hassle over it, but if it involves
a specific recommendation, I can think of two instances in particularly -- you
know I think he ought to have- he's the ----
Mayor Ferre; He or she?
Mr, Stierheim; Both, I
of Pollution Control and
lost to the Purchasing Director and I lost to the Director
I really didn't lose, both positions were good,
39 -
Mayor Ferre: Are those one of the people that you fited7
Mr. Stierheim: ..i.:, no sir, they're two of my best people:
Mayor Jette: Oki So then, when you said you ate tolerant, you're tolerant
in that sense anyway. Tell us about your relationship with the unions, You
have unions there don't you? Employee unions?
Mr. Stierheim: Well, let's put it this way, in the city I have the Firefighters
and the police organizations. I had excellent relations with both:
Mayor Ferret What's that mean, were you involved in the negotiations yourself?
Mr. Stierheim: Yes sir.
- Mayor Ferre: You didn't have a negotiator?
Mr. Stierheim: No sir.
Mayor Ferre: You did it yourself?
Mr. Stierheim: That's correct.
Mayor Ferre: You sat down with them, negotiated the contract.
Mr. Stierheim: Now, I'm going to say now that I don't know that could work here
in Miami, because you're much more heavily unionized and you've got five bargain-
ing agents and yes I did it there and I do negotiate with the --- in addition to
those two we had in both the city and the county, we have very strong vival
Employee Organizations which I've encouraged that represent the employees and
participate, not only with me, but with the chairman in negotiations on varies
Mayor Ferre: The chairman is chairman of the board, you mean?
Mr. Stierheim: The chairman of the board can sit down with them also and the
Commission. That's correct.
Mayor Ferre: In other words, you believe in the bargaining process and the
collective bargaining rights of government employees, city employees?
Mr. Stierheim: Oh, I certainly believe in the bargaining process there's no
question about that. I'm certainly not in favor of binding arbitration, never
have been. But I am in favor of bargaining. I think the employees have got
to have .
Mayor Ferre: Well, what obstacle do the employees have if they don't have
binding arbitration and they can't strike? Or do you believe that necessary
functions -like for example the police department, they have a right to strike?
Mr. Stierheim; I've never been a supporter of that, no sir.
Mayor Ferre: Support of what?
Mr. Stierheim: Of the right to strike.
Mayor Ferre: Well then but you don't support binding arbitration?
Mr. Stierheim: I don't. No sir.
Mayor Ferre: Well, then how do the employee groups have the ultimate ability
to take their grievance to the ultimate --- ?
Mr. Stierheim: Well, I think that you know the elected officials are the
ultimate. Decision or the courts if their's been flagrant abuse and I think
that the books of the City or the 'County are open for inspection and I think
that you say you either have the flexibility or the capibility to do it or you
don't or somewhere along the line there has to be a judgmental decision on the
part of the elected officials, either you can tax for it or you can't and so
far I think the legislature and the consitution of that in mind, I hope they
stay steadfast.
Mayor Jerre: Let me ask you with regards to the Civil Service, how does the
40
Civil Service System works in both Clearwater County and in the City
Mr, Stierheim: You knows I don't want to sound hypocritical either when I say
what I just said, because I have a reputation of being sensitive to the needs
of employees and I'm not hesitant about recommending salary adjustments or
adjustments and benefits and so forth where I think they're justified. The
Civil Service merit system in Clearwater and the County ?
Mayor Ferre: Yea, how does Civil Service function and how you relate to it?
Mr. Stierheim: Well I -- in Clearwater I was identified as the appointing
authority. And, as such there were certain activities.
Mayor Ferre: I donft understand this, that means you appoint the ---
Mr, Stierheim: I appoint all employees.
Mayor Ferre: All the Civil Service ?
Mr. Stierheim: Yes sir.
Mayor Ferre: How many in the Civil Service ---- you have?
Mr. Stierheim: In Clearwater we had- not counting the exempt, we had close
to 1200 employees.
Mayor Ferre: No, I mean on the board, on the authority or whatever it's called.
Do you have a Civil Service Board?
Mr. Stierheim: That's a legal terminology Mayor. As appointing authority I am
the one that is responsible for the appointment of employees. Now, I am the
appointing authority under the board of County Commissioners for all ---
Mayor Ferre: No, no, we're talking semantically different. Is there a Civil
Service Board?
Mr. Stierheim: Yes sir. There's one in the County and one in Clearwater.
Mayor Ferre: The one in the County, how many members serve on that board?
Mr. Stierheim: There are a total of seven.
Mayor Ferre: And who appoints them?
Mr. Stierheim: Two by the employees, two by the Board of County Commissioners,
two by the constitutional officers, and the seventh by the sixth.
Mr. Plummer: What was your personal relationship with that board?
Mr. Stierheim: Good.
Mr. Plummer: Well, but I mean more then just good, did you have a hand in the
direction once you had a grievance brought to that board, what was the procedure
from there?
Mr. Stierheim: Well, if - when I started to answer before , in Clearwater if it
involves dollars the appointing authority had to be a party to the decision,
all right, so their was more authority, let's say for the City Manager in that
instance than their is in Pinnellas County or their is in Miami. Today, in
Pinnellas County if I have a particular matter, if I want to recommend to the
County Commission a creation of an additional position or a version of a class-
ified to an exempt position or some other change in classification or what -have -
you, we make this presentation to the board and the board can make that decision
independentally,
Mr. Plummer; They're a recommending body?
Mr. Stierheim: No sir. They actually if we make the recommendation and the
moneys are available in• the budget they can make the decision. It would take
a while to explain all of this. If you're creating a new position you've got
to go to the Board of County Commissioners.
Mt. Plummet: But on a grievance?
Mr, Stietheim: For the funding agency.
Mt, Plummet: On a grievance. When an employee comes and has a grievance and
who wishes to have it heard, it's heard by the Civil Service Board?
Mr, Stierheim: Correct,
Mr, Plummer: What is his next step of relief if any?
Mr. Stierheim: Well, the Board would make a decision, then we either implement
the decision or we have court recourse.
Mr. Plummer: But as Manager do you have the right to veto the Civil. Service
decision?
Mr. Stierheim: I could contest it in court.
Mr. Plummer: Only in court?
Mr. Stierheim: Yes sir. We've not had that problem up to this time. We may
have one going to court, I'm not sure. We're waiting.
Mayor Ferret Does Civil Service have a staff?
Mr. Stierheim: Yes sir. Have an Executive Director and --
Mayor Ferre: Who appoints the Executive Director?
Mr. Stierheim: The Civil Service Board.
Mayor Ferre: You don't appoint him?
Mr. Stierheim: No sir I do not.
Mayor Ferre: You don't have a personnel department?
Mr. Stierheim: No sir.
Mayor Ferre: That's all Civil Service? How about in the City of Clearwater?
Mr. Stierheim: I did not.
Mayor Ferre: Same thing?
Mr. Stierheim: Yes sir.
Mayor Ferre: In Chicago --
Mr. Stierheim: Mayor, what I do is I have one assistant, just like I was here
in Miami. I was responsible to the Manager for personnel and I would execute
all of the forms and so forth if we wanted to contest something with the Manager's
blessing we'vd go down to the Civil Service Board and contest or to the Executive
Director.
Mayor Ferre: There's a move of foot as you well know throughout the United
States in some cases it's pretty extreme to get rid of Civil Service Systems.
For example, the latest one, the big one was the City of Chicago, who recently
changed the whole format of how they handled these things. Do you feel that
Civil Service Board serves a purpose, do you feel that they should be kept, or
there are alternates to it, do you feel that the personnel functions should be
kept under the Civil Service Board or should it transferred to the Manager?
Mr, Stierheim: I'll give you two answers Mayor. Practically if you want a
Civil War on your hands try to put it under the Manager. Economically, profess-
ionally, if the right of appeal on disciplinary actions or adversed actions it
can function very well under the chief appointing officer of the City Manager,
County Administrator or whoever he is, Yes, I think Civil Service and merit
systems perform a very useful function,
Mayor Ferre: How about the personnel function of Civil Service versus the
posture of the policy setting board, other words, should Civil Service be just
the judge, jury that makes decisions and sets policies or should they also be
involved in the administrative procedure of the personnel department?
d
Mt, Stierheim: Ideally--
Mayor Fette: Don't tell me ideally: Tell me yout opinion,
Mr, Stierheim: Well I at, A Manager has to administer through people, 90%
of your budget is people and he should have some patticipatory tesponsibility
for the development of the Civil Service System. Now, the intergity of it I
think can be protected, You know, we'te opening up a subject hete that we
could spend several days
Mayor Ferre Yea, but I don't know whether' you're answering my question, You're
answering a lot of things but I don't know whether you're particularly answering
the question that I asked you.
Mt. Stierheim: Please restate the question.
Mayor Ferre: I'm asking you specifically do you feel that the system works
better when the City Manager has under his control the personnel functions ,
the administrative function of personnel, hiring and firing and keeping of
records, books, the whole administrative procedure and keeping the Civil Service
System, but only as a policy jurisdical system that makes decisions ? Do you
feel that the personnel function would best be done by a Civil Service Manager
selected by the Civil Service Board and a separate administered function under
it?
Mr. Stierheim: Now, can I answer and it a loaded question?
Mayor Ferre: Its a loaded question, you bet'cha. Sure it is. All these questions
that I've asked you are loaded questions.
Mr. Stierheim: Well all right, this one is loaded. Because you're not going
to change that I don't believe in the City of Miami, but yes I think it can
function very effectively under the Manager and I think rather than use your
choice of words, the Civil Service Board be the final appeal board if you will,
short of court for the employee if he so chooses, in that if you shift the
administrative responsibility for Civil Service to the Manager then you shift to
the Civil Service Board more basic and final authority on the appeal from the
abuse of that power. It is a power obviously and you're going to give on the
one hand and take away on the other and give more to the appeal board, Now,
that I think can function and would be my preference.if you're going to apply
that here in the City of Miami, I think forget it:
Mayor Ferre: You feel then, as I understand it that this Civil Service System
should remain fairly much as it has been?
Mr. Stierheim: I don't know what it has been like for the last eight or nine
years.
Mayor Ferre: Well, whereas it was when you were here which was a administrative
function under the Civil Service System?
Mr. Stierheim: Well., for awhile when I was here it was lousy for several years
and then it emerged and I think it got good toward the end.
Mayor Ferre: So, what's the answer to the question?
Mr. Stierheim: Well, Mayor the first place I don't know how you're functioning
now. I'd say probably ---
Mayor Ferre: I'm just asking you a theoretical question and sure it's a loaded
question, see you're trying to answer it with and I understand-- with not full
knowledge of the situation of Miami. I don't want you to have the full knowledge
I'm asking you a theoretical question and it's a loaded question,true, but I
think that we would like to have your opinion as to how you would address yourself
to that. Philosophically, are you in favor, yes or no of keeping a Civil Service
System with the administration under the board?
Mr. Stierheim: I don't think your question is fair,because every single (now
you let me answer now), Every single system has to be looked at in the context
of the political environment in which it rests, It's impossible, now if you
want me to give you a textbook answer, I can give you a textbook answer, all
right, then I'm saying that looking at the political realities and being a
pragmatist the system as it is working in Miami is the way it is going to work
and the way we want it to work the best. I have a feeling that it's functioning
�- 4 3-
pretty well, but I don't know that for a fact, And, you knout if it weten't
if it became too political a creature and was not at all responsive to the
Managerial responsibilities of the Manager then he's got to fish or cut bait,
either he fights for what he thinks is right or he ignores it.
Mayor Ferret Well let me--L
Mr. Plummer: Let me ask a question? Maybe I can hit it on the head, ok. I'll
come right down to the bitty gritty and ask a question that the Mayor is trying
to ask, maybe. It is proposed right now by an outfit known Booz-Allen, that a
Department of Human Resources be created under the Manager, a great deal of the
authority--- not completely because the director hasn't been appointed, you got
a name title up there, but much of the authority which has formally tested in
Civil Service Board is proposed to be witched over into this Human Resources
Board, ok?
Mr. Stierheim: Yes sir.
Mr. Plummer: And the fight that has developed in which I have been one of the
main characters has been resistence to that, that we feel (or I feel) that the
Civil Service Board has operated very efficiently. The feeling is that it
could operate more efficiently if it were under the Manager in the form of the
Human Resources keeping the Civil Service Board as a grievance procedure and a
rule setting board, that's the difference and the destinction, that's where we're
at now.
Mr. Stierheim: I understand better now.
Father Gibson: Mr. Mayor, I'm not always the most charitable somebody, but
because I diocese is going to either get you or he isn't going to get you, I mean
hire you. I would hope the reason not asked the candidate to answer that question
in light of the fact we didn't ask the others. I'm not trying to show reflection
but I ---
Mayor Ferre: I'm not as charitable Father I'm sorry. I tell you we may have to
live with this man for many, many years and maybe many years beyond the time I'm
here. I frankly, I want to tell you in all honesty that this is not--- it was
not a preconcede --
Father Gibson: I know.
Mayor Ferre: This came out and it's a tough hard question. I don't blame him,
but I think he's going to have answer some tough questions. If I had thought
of it with the other people that come out I would've popped it to them just I've
done with him.
Mr. Plummer: Yes, but along with what Father is saying and I can appreciate
it. Mr. Mayor, what Mr. Stierheim is trying to tell you is that no one set
pattern works everywhere.
Mr. Stierheim: That's correct.
Mr. Plummer: He would have to have the availability of knowing first what are
we operating under? Two is it working in his estimation or not? Does it need
changes, maybe it doesn't, but without him knowing, how can he answer? There's
no way he can answer.
Mayor Ferre: At this stage of the game it is the policy of this Commission that
has been established through the ballot here. We voted on it.
Mr. Plummer: The final zinger was that we would try it and if it didn't work
we would be more than willing to come back --
Mayor Ferre: Don't disagree that it can change any moment. I'm saying that as
of today it is the official policy of this policy making board and the implement-
ations of it are beyond just Civil Service it is entangled. See the implement-
ations of this is beyond Civil Service. It is deeply entangled in the whole
process of Affirmative Action and Consent Decrees and of all of the problems that
we said a community where 53% of the population are Spanish-sername and 20%
are Black and you got you know, almost 80% of your population so-called minority
and yet you have a structure in a city where and of course, nobody wants to fire
the people that have been good public servants for many years but their is an
inheritant problem which is just human nature it's not limited to Miami, it happens
in Germany, or with the immigration of the Turks. It happens in Marseille with
the Algerians, it's not unique to the United States, it not unique to Miami, but
44 T
its a problem and I think this country deals with it better than other country
in the world, We ate=I can't think of another community itt the 'United States
let's face it, the problems that we are, And, that's why I think these questions
ate itpoftaut, They have to be asked, You don't have that problem in Clear, -
water, you got a 12% minority population, you have a problem, but you don't have
this problem,
Mt, Stierheim: That's correct,
Mayot Terre: So I don't mean that - Ok, we're get off of that, we'll go
onto thenext question. What's your career objective?
Mr. Stierheim: I would say continued and hopefully greater responsibility,
career responsibility,professional responsibility to to a point where I get
too burned out on the edges and then maybe I teach or consult or what -have -you.
Mr. Plummer: Would you like to be a Mayor?
Mr, Stierheim: (laughter) I might run for office --you never can tell.
Mayor Ferre: That's where you really get burned.
Mr. Plummer: Mr. Mayor, can I ask him a question? You're the only one I can
relate this to and I forgot to ask it and I intend to go back and ask, what is
your present millage in Pinnellas County?
Mr. Stierheim: We have 5.6 or 5.8 if I'm not ---
Mr. Plummer: Is the Sheriff and the others included under the
Mr. Stierheim: Yes, not that doesn't include the dural tax as to 1.722.
Mr. Plummer: All right, now what was your millage the last of June?
Mr. Stierheim: We went up --well I'm going to have to explain this.
Mr. Plummer:
The answer I'm looking for - did your millage go up or down?
Mr. Stierheim: Oh yes, definitely.
Mr. Plummer: Your millage went up.
Mr. Stierheim: Yes sir.
Mr. Plummer: What about the City?
Mr. Stierheim: WE11, there's twenty-four cities.
Mr. Plummer: No, Clearwater? When you were Manager of Clearwater?
Mr. Stierheim: When I was Manager of Clearwater we had five consecutive tax
cuts and one hold the line.
Mr. Plummer: Cuts?
Mr. Stierheim: Yes sir.
Mr. Plummer; In the County of Pi.nnellas do you charge a garbage tax?
Mr. Stierheim: No sir.
Mr. Plummer: You do not.
Kr, Stierheim: No sir.
Mr. Plummer: You have curbside pick-up or back -yard?
Mr. Stierheim: We have private haulers in the unincorporated areas and the
Municipal systems provide their own. The County is currently responsible for
solid waste disposal for all Municipalities and the unincorporated areas where
actively involved in that,
Mr; Plummer; Do you have anything on the drawing boards other than conversation
about any kind of a mass transit? 45
411
Mr, Stierheim: We have; yes, We have two Mass transit systems in Pinnellas
County, One is owned and operated by the City of St. Petersburg, the other
is Central Pinnellas Transit Authority,
Mt, Plummer: I'in not speaking of buses,
Mr, Stierheim. Oh pardon ine,
Mr, Plummer: Mass transits,
Mr, Stierheim: No sir.
Mr, Plummer: There's no talk about one?
Mr, Stierheim: Well, there is to this extent. We're talking about acquiring
a major railroad right-of-way that runs the length of Pinnellas County.
Pinnellas County is a penisula and St. Petersburg at the bottom and Tarpits
Springs at the top and this railroad line runs down the length of it. We have
put in the general obligation bond-- they issued 5 million dollars to acquire
that from the railroad.
Mr. Plummer: Does Ed Ball own it?
Mr. Stierheim: Sure he's got some interest, but we haven't meet with the
President of the Railroad and it is surplus, there are only nine industries on
it that some of them could be served by truck transport and we might have to
relocate four or five, so we're heavily involved in that and that corridor
could become a corridor for a mass transit system or down the length
of the penisula. Anything on the drawing boards, no, but that's quite physci-
ally.
Mayor Ferre: Well, we're about an hour and ten minutes now. So , are there
any further questions?
Mr. Plummer: Yea, I have to ask this question Mayor, you might not appreciate
or like me afterwards but I've never a Merritt Stierheim and Father brought it
out before, is Merritt Stierheim looking to us to say we want you or you are
going to say you want us. Where is this meeting of the minds going to come
about?
Mr. Stierheim: Well, if you were , of course, you don't know what you're going
to get to that position and maybe being unilateral I'll come to a decision first
and if I could have a few days I'd kind of like to think about it and then I
don't know whether it's your intention to make a decision tonight, I would hope
not. I'd like an opportunity to talk with Paul, and spend a little time with
the City, those are my personal plans.
Mr. Plummer: So in other words, sometime before you leave, which I think you're
contemplating the weekend you will make it known to this Commission whether or
not you are interested or would accept.
Father Gibson: J.L.?
Mr. Plummer: Father, I want to know what the procedure is going to be?
Mayor Ferre: Well, I don't think it's fair to put the burden on him, I don't
think it's fair to put the burden on him.
Mrs. Gordon: I don't either. It would be necessary for to make--- and then
ask him if he's interested.
Mayor Ferre: I think so. I think that's the only fair way to do it is if we
want you I think we've got to ask you and want you, ok.
Mr. Stierheim: Are you planning on having another meeting?
Mayor Ferre: Well, that's up to the Commission. Mr. Plummer, I'll tell you
we've always done things and you know just as well as I do that this Commission
has always functioned on what this Commission's wants... I'm not in favor of
anything in particular. I'm just saying that that's something that we'll discuss
after Mr, Stierheim leaves,
• Mr, Plummer: Ok, Fine.
=46-
1
Mayor Ferre: We'll discuss it here and let what the majority of this Comm=
ission is,
Father Gibson: Mr, Mayot, before Mr. Stierheim leaves, I don't want you to
get the wrong impression sit based on what I said, because all of us were
privileged to ask any and all questions:
Mr, Stierheim: Yes sit.
Father Gibson: And, the only thing that bothered me is I say those union
people sitting out there and if I know people at all, one of the things I
pride myself on is whenever you see me get up to preach. I never go to the
pulpit at the last moment and you wouldn't know this but if you're privileged
to come here me preach I case the congregation before I start preaching, Do
you know what that means?
Mr. Stierheim: Yes sir.
Father Gibson: I look them all over, man, and then if I want to know whether
I'm coming on I look at certain sisters and brothers, then I know to turn the
heat on, you know what I mean?
Mr. Stierheim: Yes.
Father Gibson: Ok. All I was doing is, I know that was difficult and I know
that the Mayor had no unfavorable intention. I just wanted you to know because
we could have asked all of them. We just didn't think about that. I wished
we had, because that question is a very important question.
Mr. Stierheim: It is.
Father Gibson: And, Mr. Mayor, you know, I'm not so sure - since all of them
are still in town and didn't go back we ought to ask them all that question.
I think we'll call them and have a conference call, because otherwise we would
have ducked the issue---- the Commission will know where all of them stand.
Because whoever comes here just like the Mayor says, he's got to live with
that question.
Mayor Ferre:
I think that's fine, but now we have kind of a logistical problem
Mr. Grassie is leaving at 6:25 for Jacksonville. How are we going to arrange
a conference call and any striving Saturday we won't be back to the Commission
until Wednesday? Now I'm available tomorrow and I'm available at 8:00 tomorrow
morning to make a conference call.
Father Gibson: I think it's important. Now you know, what is fair for the goose
is fair for the gander, ok. Let me say this Mr. Mayor, I think you were right
unfortunately we didn't ask the others. I think all of them ought to ---
Mayor Ferre: Well, I'm perfectly willing to follow any recommendation you want,
would you tell us what you think should be done?
Father Gibson: I think a call ought to be made.
Mayor Ferre: By whom?
Father Gibson: By the Mayor and another member of the Commission and have them
say yes or no.
Mayor Ferre: All right.
Father Gibson: 0r if not that, then forget the question.
Mayor Ferre: I think that's a valid request. Three of them are still here.
Mr. Eads, if you will contact the three and perhaps see if they're available
by phone right now after Mr. Stierheim leaves we can ask them and tomorrow I'll
see which one of you is available, And, Father if you're available we'll make
the conference three ways that can be done either might be at your Parish Office.
Father Gibson:• All right, make the call.
Mayor Ferre; And, we'll call tomorrow and ask, Are their any other questions
of Mr, Stierheim? If not, thank you very much, You're be here through tomorrow
so we'll be able to talk to you at that time, All right, thank you very much,
.. 47
Mayor Fette: We've now finished intetviewing officially all five of the
candidates,• The chair is opened fot recommendations of how we proceed froth
bete,
Mr, Plummer: Mr. Mayor, I'll speak for one and start it off. In no way do I
wish to vote this evening, We have just concluded. I have taken my notes and
I would like to have the opportunity to sit back and see if I have any other
questions because it's either now you ask your questions of don't.
Mayor Fette: Mr. Plummer, in the interest of time. You have five people on
this Commission who would agree to that,
Mr, Plummer: I did?
Mayor Ferre Yea, Rose and Father told me before and I just asked Reboso, that
means that five of us agree that we should not make a decision tonight, Now,
comes the next question, then when is decision time?
Mr, Plummer: Monday or Tuesday, perferably Tuesday for me,
Mayor Ferre: All right. When are we all available?
Mr. Reboso: What about Monday at 9:00?
Mrs. Gordon: We have a Pension Retirement Plan meeting set up for 9:00.
Mr. Plummer: What about Tuesday?
Mr. Reboso: Can you delay that for one hour?
Mrs. Gordon: And there's another Pension Board meeting at 9:00 on Tuesday, but
I guess we could change some of these .
Mr. Reboso: Rose can't you postpone the 9:00 o'clock meeting on Monday for
10:00 o'clock?
Mr. Plummer: Why don't you make it Monday afternoon? Anytime in the afternoon
is fine with me.
Mrs. Gordon: Could we make it at 3:00 o'clock ? Monday, I could make it at
3:00 o'clock.
Mayor Ferre: Let's leave it tentatively at 3:00 o'clock on Monday. If that's
all right with everybody and I'll know in a few minutes if it creates a problem
for me I'll try to change it otherwise we'll set it for another time.
Mr. Plummer: Mr. Mayor, we're part-time.
Mayor Ferre: I know. Anything else to come up before this Commission at this
time?
Mr. Andrews: Yes Mr. Mayor would you be kind enough to go into special session
so that I can give you some information. I need your assistance.
Mayor Ferre: Whats the purpose?
Mr. Andrews: I am establishing a negotiating system for the city in lieu of the
problem that we have and I want the Commission's authority to give me some
latitude and accomplish within reason, it's going to be an expenditure of
some additional funds.
ADJOURNMENT
There being no further business to come before the City Commission,
on motion duly made and seconded, the meeting was adjourned at:
6 : 10 0' Clock P,
MAURICE A, FERRE
Mayor
ATTEST; H, D. SOUTHERN
City Clerk
1 ALPH C, ONGI.E
Assistant City Clerk 48
Mayor Ferre: I call a Special Commission Meeting tight now foi the purposes
of discussing the bargaining procedure that the Managet is going to recommend,
Time: 6:10 P.M,
Mt, Andrews: Mr, Mayor, I'm not specifically going to outline a exact program
for the Commission at this stage because it's in a formulation process but I
want to try to come to conclusions as early as possible recognizing that the
Employee Organizations and in fairness to those organizations that were ready
to batgain with, They're preparing themselves and we were and now as a result
of this major shift of not having available a negotiator under me I probably
am going to look to a contract, firm or individual to render this service and
at the same time acquire the services hopefully of a professional negotiator
and between those two parties to carry out negotiations session with one ident-
ified as the specific negotiator for the City. I would hope that the Commission
would give me the latitude to make these arrangements and begin at an early date,
Mayor Ferret Now, Mr. Andrews, can you be a little more specific, or do you
think you need time to make a more specific thing?
Mr. Andrews: Well, I can be more specific to this extent and tell you what I'm
considering and that is to employ a negotiator, but in doing so I recognize that
that negotiator, a professional person would not have the advantage of knowing
all of the subsidies of this community, the relationship of these organizations
and to do so would put the city at a distinct advantage, yet I would hate to
think that a person that we would hire in the future would miss the opportunity
of participating in this negotiation session which will begin in about approx-
imately three weeks, probably not longer than four weeks. To compliment that
process I would like to hire a firm that does have knowledge of Dade County,
that does have knowledge of the City of Miami and can specifically deal with the
issues that we will be dealing with in the negotiation process and that individ-
ual or firm would be aboard for approximately four or five months through the
negotiating process and that then depart the City after that process is over and
to let a permanent negotiator carry on from that point on through the administrat-
ive aspects of negotiation and follow-up after the process is over. So in this
area it probably will cost an additional fifteen thousand dollars to carry this
out the way I would for the City and have the kind of continuity. I'm hopeful
that we will accomplish the negotiations completely before I depart the City on
July the 30th.
Mr. Plummer: What you're saying is the normal $27,000 -
Mr. Andrews: $30,000.
Mr. Plummer: $30,000 we're paying the formal negotiator plus an additional
fifteen- put them on an emergency basis.
Mr. Andrews: Yes.
Mr. Plummer: You got the money?
Mr. Andrews: I'm going to have to find it. I think it's important enough
that something be done to achieve it.
Mr. Plummer: In other words what you're saying to us is that you don't feel
that the person who you will choose as your full-time negotiator is knowledgeable
enough to find the situation.
Mr. Andrews: That's right.
Mr. Plummer; Well, let's put it this way and I'll give you my personal opinion.
I'm assuming or hopefully I'm assuming that you're going to go for another two
year negotiation.
Mr. Andrews: Hope so.
Mr. Plummer: Based on that, I don't see that the need to keep that professional
negotiator on at this time since we really will admit that the fee will be doing.
What I'm trying to say is that half of the year is gone, If you don't put the
professional negotiator on until October the 1st, then you've got to help him.
Mr. Andrews: There's one Disadvantage to that and that's a calculated risk and
I hate to take that calculated risk for the City and that is I'm not sure at this
stage what the Employee Organizations and it's not fair at this point and time
to ask them a second guess them as to whether they too ate going t0 attempt to
strike for a one-yeat or a two-year negotiation and if it's one year then their
will be a disadvantage. Maybe youite in a position to ask the employees, but I'm
not going to do that because I think thatis part of the negotiation process,
Mr, Plummer: Paul, I really think that the time frame is moot, because if a
man comes on October 1st, he has the full-time before
Mr, Andrews: I would agree. I'm looking at it from the best possible advantage
of the City and the value that we would have invested in the individual if he
were a party to the negotiation process. And, I think the employees would agree
at least I think they would agree with this, that these separate negotiations are
going to be complexed. They're not going to be settled,
Mr. Plummer: Well, let's put it this way, I will make a motion which will give
you the authority to the extent of coming back to this Commission and telling
us who that group is,
Mr. Andrews: All right.
Mr. Plummer: I'm not going to give you Carte Blanche. I will give you a motion
which will say, Manager you've got the authority to go out and negotiate with
the group to represent the City up to $15,000, the final approval of the named
group has to be rested with this Commission.
Mr. Andrews: Now, the $15,000 was an additional to the monies that are avail-
able and accumulating as a result of the position being vacant- you understand,
so if - may I suggest an alternative to your motion that may satisfy you even
further. In order to be positive and constructive at this point. I would
really , the first instance want some specific authority from the Commisison to
engage the services of a professional consultant firm to participate in the
negotiation process to be the City's chief negotiator. The second step would
be to hire the person that we want to keep on for the long term. I will come
back to the Commission for that specific approval and not make any commitments
in that area until I've talked to you. But I need the other area to go ahead.
Mr. Plummer: Well, wait a minute, you have that authority now --
Mr. Andrews: No, no I don't. No, you see we're talking about a contract. There's
a difference. I could employ someone that has knowledge of our circumstances that
will not be a full-time employee with the City, that service would be rendered
on a contractual arrangement and would terminate September or October.
Mr. Plummer: Yea, I understand what they're talking about, but one of them
we already have, the other one we don't. Well, with the understanding it is
subjected to this Board's approval as to the named individuals, the group and
the contracters, is what you're saying. I offer such a motion.
Mayor Ferre: Repeat your motion, would you please?
Mr. Plummer: My motion is to give the Manager the authority to go out and
negotiate with a group of professionals to be this City's chief negotiator and
a stipulated fee not to exceed $15,000.
Mr. Andrews: No, wait a minute, not the fee, $15,000 added to the funds that
we have.
Mr. Plummer: Ok, it's a fee.
Mr. Andrews: No, just a minute we're getting things out of context. We have
for the balance of this fiscal year assuming approximately April 1st, which would
be six months at a rate of $30,000 a year for full expenditure if that position
remains vacant there's $15,000 dollars available there, plus whatever 20% over-
head about $18,000. I'm asking you to add approximately $15,000 to that , see,
Mr. Plummer: All right. Ok. It's going to cost us another $15,000.
Mayor Ferre: Make your motion Plummer, read it again,
Mr. Plummer: That the Manager be authorized to select a group to be the chief
negotiator for the city; that the Manager be further authorized to
select an individual; and that fifteen thousand dollars more in
apjropriations be appropriated for this negotiation; subject to
the Commission reserving the right of approval on the name,
There was no second to the motion.
Mayor Forre: I think we had better make sure we know
exactly what it is we are doing. Why don't you repeat the ntttinn
one more time.
Mr. Plummer: Mt/ motion is that the City Manager be author-
ized to solicit a chief negotiator in a group of professionals to
act as the city's negotiator, and that he be further authorized to
name an individual for the City on staff of a full-time negotiator:
that fifteen thousand dollars be allocated as additional money;
and the fourth thing is that all things are subject to the Commis-
sion's approval ---
Mayor Ferre: So all we are voting on now is just letting
you proceed in finding out and then coming back to us.
Mrs. Gordon: Fifteen thousand dollars in addition to --is
that for the special contract?
Mayor Ferre: But that is not final, you see.
Mrs. Gordon: But that is what we are voting the money
for. It isn't for the permanent position.
Mayor Ferre:
hat is correct.
Thereupon the motion, as above stated, introduced by Mr.
Plummer and seconded by Mrs. Gordon, was adopted unanimously, and
was designated MOTION NO. 76-391.
ADJOURNMENT:
The meeting was adjourned at 6:23 o'clock P.M.
ATTEST: H. D. SOUTHERN
CITY CLERK
MAURICE A. FERRE
MAYOR