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ITY
OF MEETING HELD ON OCTOBER 7 1977
PREPARED BY THE OFFICE OF THE CITY CLERK
ciTY HALL
1
1
RALPH G. ONGIE
CITY CLERK
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1INUTES CF PEGULAR IYEETING
CITY CCi1ISSICN CF MIAMI, FLDRIfA
ITEM O, 1 SUE JEC T
ORDINANCE C9
RESOLUTION No
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TABLE CF CONTENTS
1. 1 CONTIN+UATICN CT RECESSED PUBLIC HEARING OF S PTE; BEc 30, R- 7 7 - 7 7 7
1977 - BUDGET
77-77/
77- 77t-
77-773
77- 77-
tg7M8 OP ktOt88tb HEtTI;4G OF IHF
-CitY G0MNISSION OF :ii»ii, FLORIDA
* * * * * * * *
On the 1th day of October, 1977, the City Commission of Miami, ;Florida,
at its regular meeting place in the City Hall, 3500 Pan American Drive,
tliam, Florida in Continuation of a recessed meeting. The meeting was
called to order at 9:15 A.M., by Mayor Ferre with the following members
of the Commission found to be present:
Commissioner `tanolo Reboso
Commissioner J. L. Plummer, Jr.
Commissioner Rose Gordon
ViceMayor (Rev.) Theodore R. Gibson
ALSO PRESEt;T WERE:
Joseph R. Grassie, City Manager
R. L. Fosrno_n, Assistant City Manager
George F. Knox, City Attorney
Ralph G. Ongie, City Clerk
Natty Hirai, Assistant City Clerk
An invocation was delivered by Reverend Gibson who than led those
present in a pledge of allegience to the flag.
tiet
1. CON INUATICN OF RECESSED FL'ELIC HEARING CF SEPTEN6ER 30, 1977 - EUDGE-r
Mayor Ferre: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, this is a cor.tin'tation of the
public hearing re_ardir.g the City of Miami Budget. A c t he lasp meeting the Com-
mission requested that : call FIU, that was two meetings ago. The Commission re-
quested taht FIL provide an overview service cn this budget because seine quest-
ions had arisen in the discrepancies between the administration's position. ar.d
Dr. Barry's claims. At the last meeting Commissioner Plummer was requested to
continue chairing this committee until its conclusion, as I enderstand that that
was arrived at sometime between the beginning of this week and a report was sub-
mitted by the gentlemen from Fill. So I will now request our colleague Commissioner
Plummer to report his findings to the cc:mnissicn.
Mr. Plur:me:: Thank you, Mr. :Mayor. Mr. Mayor, tee task that you set before
this committee with the time parameters, I'm very pleased to report to ycu this
committee worked extremely hard. Within about a 72 hour span they put in almost
35 hours so that, in fact, this commission could be made aware in advance of this
meeting of their report. My public thanks go to the four doctors from FTC who
are all here this morning at :y request. :ill cf you have received copies of this
report and I think basically the report speaks for itself but I would like at
this time, Dr. Hendrickscn will be the spokesman or the start -off spokesman for
the group and let him ;ive you a brief summary of his report and 1 have asked
that they be available for questions in case any members cf the commission cr
anyone else would want qu st:cns answered. So without further ado, r Mayor, I
would• ask trough you that Dr. Hendrieks:.n be allowed to speak on che report.
Mayor ?erne: Dr. Hendrickson.
Dr. Haevey Hendrickson: As Commissioner 'Plummer has indicated all of "cu have
received copies of the report and I think it probably stands on its face. Now
what I could do this morning would be to give you a possibly more abstract vers-
ion of this. What we're saying in effect I think is that we agree with the admin-
istration, in other words we support the long run goals of providing an efficient
effective city service administration, in other words providing tha services for
the clIty .n a:: efficient effective manner. :;ow we have found in our reviews, end
it is indicated in the budget itself and :he testimony of the people chat we
questioned that the budget is conservative. Now what this weans is that the
revenues tended to be underest7_tiated. In other words it is a conservat4ve view
of the revenues .:hat will aetudlly be co:. . :ted. .. :he same tc.:en in _.,..n ct-
ion with the e:spenses you take a rather consarvati'.'e '7i :w of these, a rather
pessimistic view and you tend to state thee: at d h.ig _r figure than: 4 ght p' —
ibly D3 exn.3cted. The result tnan tents to give you an e'd± a balance that 40
probably less than aL tuali y would be t.`.d case. _:ow it is necessary to do t;?is _3
to a ca:ta:n e-.. ` . cent is:order that you :an take care of .e_-nzi s^35 _:?c' �ar_;e.
1
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177
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Things can, remember we're dealing with forecasts, we're dealing with the future.
The future is uncertain. It has been said that the Miami Budget situation is
something like New York, quite the opposite. The New York budgeting systett was
very unconservative. What the New York accountants were doing was they were
recognizing the revenues, the income before it was collected but they were wait-
ing until the payments were actually: made in connection with the expenses. In
our discussions we tried to arrive at our charge and it was narrowed down is
there money in the 1977-7S 3ud;et Estimate to fund the 167 positions and we have
found that there was. Now we did not search ever.; item of the budget, we obvious-
ly didn't have time to do that. We pretty much stopped when we arrived at what
Seemed to be adequate funding for the 167 positions. Had we continued we prob-
ably could have found some additional items. Now I think that the issue facing
you probably is not whether there is adequate money to fund the 167 positions,
I think we have found that and the Manager Crassie has indicated on TV that
there is at least looney for these positions this year. That's true, that's a
different thing main. We looked only: at 1977-78. The issue is not necessar-
ily whether you have funds to fund these positions, we chink that those monies
are there. We thin.k that probably the real issue is do you want these 167
employees or do ;:o'r want some other combination of resources that could be ac-
quired if these people are fired. In ether words do you really want to at this
uicz.ent fire those employees and cause the d.iscre'^.tive affects that this would
tend to have or, several hundreds of people or do you want to wait and let this
cccr_t: possibly by attrition and a combir,at:on of other things. ?,any of the
positions will we think he freed up by attrition during the next year. I had a
call from a gentie:Ia: in the Fire Depart"e::t during the week who was inquiring
about the interpretation of some aspects of the rapert. He indicated the sur--
ve, indicated_ that eonceivably scime 33 of the 36 firemen proposed tc be
1• cyst,
but 33 positions would be freed u~ for all the Fire reeirenonts any: other termin-
ations during the year. So bassi coll'y' we think that our long run objective is
the same as that proposed by the city administration and that is providing effic-
ient effective services to the city, our style, our method seegested for doing
this is r_3.'antl: different. rc1're pro,o that youhave e 1
S' nb .� one year to plan and
develop ayes t ay that would ?rchab_y be less brutal. that probably would be more
effective or must ae effective in the _Ors _•in. Now we can get on tc the speci-
fics fics of the budget but I think I .could prefer to hear from the admenistration as
they may have some challenges with score of cur figures. I don't know whether
the commissioners want to co ._nt.e the specifics, we dwelt for hours on specific
aspect_ „f the bee 'Wit. au_ :ng t �; t_ma that we were h:,ids nu our hearings. J`-
Mayor Ferre: Thank you very much, doctor. New, Commissioner Plummer, do you
have anything you want to add to the statement?
Mr. Plummer: Well, '•:r. Mayor, the only thing is I would like to give the oppor-
e.
tunity ter other members of the panel te voice any comments that they right hove,
and let cc please for the reecra indicate that the panel increased from two to
four 'members and hew tn' came about. You will . instructions of _.
_s �.� recall th
.motion made at thi, commission level that the panel had to be aerceac'-e te bet.^.
sides. Yoe will recall that. Ac the time. Mr. :flavor, that you ea_.led FIL' you
were able to brine about the services oE two of the .1:of eascrs. At the time we
first sec the _._eting it was brought out by the unions that the'; would like to
have two additional professors from Fill. I asked the two original if they had
any problem with that Cr did they `eel the'.' could work in concert, their answer
was yes so that's hew we case upon a panel of four rather than two.
Mayor terra: All right thank 7cu very much. Are there anyether members of
the panel tIl..'.. would like ke to address the commission ar this tame? All right,
thank you 'fiery mach. I'm sure there will he opp ortunit's .as we get d1CI.2, ' in th
e
Corning. .it this time then, Mr. Kerner, if there is nothing else that you want
co ads.
Mr. Plur?^ar; Mr. Mayor, :t': only other concert since the four genelemen are look-
ing to me for their stipend, 1 have tha four resumes is requested by the admin-
istration. I have one bill and I would assume if ,:here is no objection that we
just multiply that by four. There is a variation? Ok, fine, if you will
g=
meyour :r bills that r nn 4 h O p'
Otn� 1 .�S so �..,�.. wa, n fact, C _e you .•�:=.C...
Mayor Ferre: Well that's something that can be done, we don't need to ..,.
Mr. Pfureser: Mr. Mayor, I will Wake i :ocion at this time which I thaw iS
crdi _. r .• •fat these :eon ha^.'. _ C. e^' i. 1er:ed the'..o job and the t they do be eaid.
Mayor ' ear e: A21 right, there is a m ct' on and a soctrtc. Actually, this ia 4
mccion of intone since we're. really not, ycu' i have to out this later an in
le^act for:a __ t.t is a motion o iM R I e reat 1 eally •
' �^ .- 4 �.:ltcnt, �szcr�a, � qu_s� wer;,._l-� en r
h ve to *:lave a roll call an =:., I can just ask for a VO±Ce vote, r. I?
OCT
•tt. Knois: Yes, Sir.
Mayot F'etre: All right, all those in favot say Aye ....opposed?...So it's
unanimous.
Now, they are going to submit it based on the fee that was
by Dt. Hendrickson and has been reported by the press and has been amply did.,
cussed.
1r. Plummer: Let me enter it into the record. Okay, the bill is here and I�11
make copies available to all concerned.
Mayor Ferre: All right, is there anything else? All right, then, at this tithe
ir. Grassie, I'll recognize you to respond, if you will.
Mr. Grassie: Thank you, Mr. Mayor members of the City Commissicn. I'd like to
start Mr. Mayor by indicating that the Administration recognizes the difficult
and almost impossible situation into which the Hendrickson committee was placed
by the request from the City, and if as we look back cn the process we need to
assign fault it is probably to ourselves in terms of asking them to do something
as difficult as this. I would before I comment any further, though, want to ask
one or two brief ;uestions of Dr. hendrickson, if he would. Particularly, because
I agree with some of the things that he said in his intrcd::cter: remarks, parti-
cularly with regard to the scope of what they were doing. Dr., I wonder if you
would indicate fer us whether or net you felt that the charge that the City Com-
mission had given you included any consideraticn of sound fiscal policy for the
City. In other words, was it part of your responsibility to make any judents
or be concerned about what constitutes sound fiscal practice
Dr. Hendrickson: Mr. Grassie, as you know, we had a charge and then we spent
another hour cr more one evening trying to determine what the charge was. As
we interpreted it the initial charge was -does the City have the ability to pay
to avoid lay-offs. And then, at your insistence and there were many further
discussions and variaticns of this-- you..there was insistence that we determine
whether there was money in the 1977-78 budget to fund these positions, and in
our search we found that, and in terms of fiscal practices it would seem, yes
we were concerned whether the money would be there and if the money is there it
would seem one of the alternatives fer the use of the money is fund the 167
positions.
Mayor Ferre: I think this could be kind cf a dangerious intersection in this
whole proceeding about this. I want to make very sure that we leave, clearly on
the record, the statement... the answer to the statement made by the Manager. The
Manager said...ard the statement as I understand it has two different parts, was
that the charge made by the Miami City Commission de facto an impossible task.
Do you concur with that?
Dr. Hendrickson: No, I think that we had adequate time to determine in general
whether there likely was money there, and we could determine tnat..v_ou know, the
conservative thins was..as you start looking beneath the figures it seems in fact
as though the estimates were in fact conservative.
Mayor Ferre: Was there any confusion in your mind as to what the task was?
Dr. Hendrickson: Well, when we came back to the....
Mayor Ferre: No, afteryou've clarified it.
Dr. Hendrickson: No, T_ don't think so, there was sufficien
1978 budget to fund these positions.
Mayor Ferre: Is..was the task clear as of this morrir.
Dr, Hendrickson: Yes.
Mayor Ferre: And you don't feel it vas ah impossible tas}
Dr. Hendrickson: No,
Mayor Ferre: And you feel that it is within sound fiscal policy,. ou, as a
professional and a C?A ar.d a ph,D., as a professions1,,fee1 that the request
wade by the City Colgmissian was 3 reasonable request that you Ca41(1 recsonably
answer it,,,
t)
MEM
N
MMM
mn
OCT Ci
Dr. Hendrickson: Yes, I think so. One of the thin,,- that :gas involved in the
earlier interpretation of our charge would have been a broader one and that
conceivably would have been impossible becnuse...does the City have the ability
to pay=' gets into a long one, but Y don't think our conclusions would have been
different.
Mayor Ferre: Now, let hue ask you, my last question here..another statement that
the Manager nade..if I wrote it down right was that it was our fault on the assign-
ment on the specifications. Do you feel that the specificati:oils CE the assignment
were unreasonable or that they were unclear or unattainable or undoabie?
Dr. Hendrickson: No, I don't think so. At the time it was very pressing, we had
to work ver., hard and
Mayor Ferre: No question about the tine parameters of this. Now, let me see if
I can restrict this so that wa can understand where we are at. The City Administra-
tion came up with a budge_ document which obviously took many months of work to
prepare. Now, you ware not going thro ch the sae process. You ware not in fact
preparing a budget document. The buczet document was submitted to the City Com-
mission. An economist for the union._ Came up and %i:ailened the premise of this
document end the underlying statement that Dr. Barr` :fade with :?'z<rd :o this docu-
ment was that in fact theiea wes in ._freers of $3 million that c,•.11d be etiliz"_'d for
cof meeting -ham e r; c1 an ongoingof 1 T 1 eng
the purposes .:.- .ii. . ... _Sc. t_'::i)_... E'... cf n^.,'JiZi,�, City .ii:.i:..1. Lil t challenge
.rie
was thrown be. e e this Co::.mSssic:. Mr. Hrwnrci G,Iry was asked to answer i`... Because
of 3 shortness time 3 h athe nrequired� i i a
th- 5hC i.i..:S� i::' ti..,t and the fact that the answer .:1 d calf Qilal a.l_ _'S1rl
and study, you were unable to completely answer the Caueatlon that was posed on two
occasions that they were pcsed at the public : e ringe. c.s a consEqueace of that,
I think the City of Miami Cemmise-ien was found in a situation where valid questions
had bet.'. :feed and valid answers had not been forthce mince, hither in µr...: ing or at
the public hearing. And subsequent to that it WAS hire' ,..e,7ision of .'?i_ ci:..T.:i.`=.3icn
unanimously theadvice c..- t which perhaps r n
_ to seek U`i :Lr� a third party Wh � _.. 'fret would lend --rot the
aura --but the reality of an obi ..:lee leek, .and whet -.r. effect these f.-rur eutle en
have donee, ladies and e,,, _:__ ..e , i'.i .footed at both T.7: Js from Lthe
... e:'• a t. ..li.a J \Ir_I �C �... J�.l..i rJ of
basic L'•t'•ect:_on a..._ cC: a a budget a a tee' not with ._ budget o-
not with JL!ds�. n.. _,, .O 'lciat.• pre-
sentation. nct wi..h an al___n_t< bud?at, act with anytbine but the very simple
ouesti:•n iin_w:_',od: is there or is there nct monies ie this DL'.deat that could be
considered for the L'urpose`J that hed been requested by the 3:.r'_Oyee gr:ups and
that's all you ,,:ere asked. You have nt.w said into the record you did%' t think the.
charge was ur:ri:'_l:.•`1•:?ble, , o'l didn't think that :here wan a fault en the assign-
rvene don't ,: t'___°you feel that i.
, you dLn C 1_'1^ �::3:. the err' ..C3t�Ch5 are unfair and t
was not an impossible task and that _'Cu did understand the request and you ha'; e•
fulfilled that requirement, is that JCrre -?
Dr. i?eadr4.c:son: Yes.
Mr. Crasie: A logical : c nctu3ien then, Mr. Mayor, from all that is that if the
Report is wrong, factually, then l:?aTAnt1' Chat interpretation nct lee incorrec
t
The question then is gcing to be: is the Report incorrect.
Dr. Hendrickson: Mr. Mayor, :'d 1?..::: to comment en that, that isn't necessarily
so. During the course of the hearings, we wen: through eiany series of estimates
and we obviously had to base what we have suggested in the Report en those
estimate. During :he week preceding. and duri the weak that we were meeting...
for example, there, was the one e:S .i'ci _ ::herd we had 1, 7 and 3 with wide1 dif-
fering amounts of accruals. for _'xa:_ple, and we :led quite a bit of fun with
how quick and hew dirty can. yoe be in ma.-'.irig three est..:.la__'_ how can j'o•1, you
knca t. st: :.his in: ')rmY. ti cn f r sound c s eon- '.a .1P. 3':t what 4.e are s;vi::g
d e• :i.! -h o ci f c;:nd that from
,.,, that ;c ,.:.. :.n c:E. .:.:. . r::. .. e��e ::rtic _._ ____._. � .. ..
this e::n:.".ina ion there :.!ere sewed :o la adequate nL'.. to fund tie 167 em-
ployees. r,ow we eceld well this morning
have cha_l.'._ '�e.s fro:il the tit'= Say :lg
that what basi_:.1:.y we're recommending ia incorrcct but this doesn't still ;..t. an
that our ccnc.:usion is i'. no: recc. Our conclusion could still be v c J valid •i
is valid tha: :he budge: i_ cnr:S0r73ti e. Jo if we were given another two Jr
three days, and possibly we don't even need :hat, we could find order c:.mounts
in ether words underestimates of the revenues and possibly overestimates of the
expenditures w n...ih Quid provide the $ , COO, CCO.
Mr Plummer: ' er i..t.�r•' �..._ . 1 e-. b .�a 1 think 3l l t
...e..r. _.�_ me �_..�, ��y__se, e:.:.t.:.,. k can colt, ^,» �c this
very simply.
Mayor yerre: 1l rig t, end then Rose Gnrdon ne::t,
.Sr p'1t�•mRC.. (r. M3:y01_7,.. *,:he Ch)a.ate of this , Qiza_o% to tile F83� was is
c.
tihF.
suffiClt^.r funds a -a a'.'ec t44r.3 budget. 3 'rev:=lift th.P ; ayoffs Th44 Vals'
OCT 0` 197 7
the sole chatge and I limited and tried to limit that questicn before the panel.
Note if Mr. Grassie was incorrectly quoted in the paper I won't hold you to this
but as I recall reading the comment you said, "Yes, in fact, it could be done."
Fete you quoted correctly? But that, in fact, it would be taking the approach
of sticking your head in the sand. Did you make that comment, Mr. Grassie?
Mr, Grassie: Words to that effect, yes.
Mr. P1nn-.,er: Ok, well what I'm really saying, Mr. Mayor, is the doctor has said
yes the question they were asked, and Mr. Grassie has agreed yes it is there fot
one year...
Mr. Grassie: If you don't care about the consequences.
Mr. Plummer: I understand but I think the charge given to the committee, and
their response was in the affirmative, vcu have concurred with. You are saying
and I'm sure rightfully so that you've get to lock further than just that quest--
ion. But the question asked cf them was answered and you confirmed it in your
quote so I don't see any back and forth.
Mayor Ferre: All right, Mrs. Gordon.
Mrs. Gordon: I'll hold it for a few minutes, Mr. Mayor, let someone else speak.
Mayor Ferret All right, anybody else?
Mr. Grassie: If we can, Mr. Mayor, we'll continue with our discussion hopefully'
without interruption.
Mayor Terre: Well I think that is a valid request and I think it is a very.sr-
ious matter, much humor in it frankly.
Mr. Gene Naples: Yes, Mr. Mayer, I think we ought to get on with it and I think
Mr. Plummer said it well and I think we ought to gat on with why we're here and
not reconstruct the background of this thing all over again. We all know why
we're here, let's ;at oa with it.
Mayor Ferre: Lock, thi.: is damned serious business. We're talking about the
future cf the City of Miami and that's your city and I don't see anything funny,
about it.
Mr. Naples: It's nct fenny, do ycu see me laughing? I'm not laughing, I think
it is damned serious.
Mayor Ferro: No, I thought I_ heard... Ck.
M.r. Grassie: Let me try first, Mr. Mayer, to hive you some context :tom cur
point cf view. We had understood, and I :fade this vary clear when the pane/ got
started with its work, we had understood that the basic question that we were
addressing was whether or not fund balance was goin_ to be 1.2 million as the
administration maintained or 3.: million as Mr. Barry maintained. That question
a little bit got lost in the process of analysis but it was touched on by the
panel in point (4) cf their memorandum and we will be speaking to that specific-
ally but I want to emphasise with you that point (4) of their memorandum does
speak to what we considered to be the basic :,uestien, the first heasticn ...
chat was asked by this City Commission. I want to point out just twc other things
that I_ think you need to have by way of background. when I was abouttalking a
relatively difficult process assigned tc Dr. HH.end:iekscn I was trying to be under-
standing of the problem that was faeine him in view of what we're going to hree
to say about the acc:lraey of their cc'ncL.sicns. Ncw I have to point out to you
t memorandum
that we're go -ha to Siva to you in just a minute a prepared . oy Howard
Gary at the rues: cf this panel, a 15 ?are memoranduT in a great deal of .etc_t
answering their questions. This memorandum was prepared after the Thursday meet-
ing, it was asked for at the Thursday meeting that e:ided at 1:30 in the morning
and it was requested that the staff prepare this response by the next morning,
the next working day, Friday. They did that, they had :! t available by neon.
They had five working hours to pracuce this report a:te: staying up to 1:30 in
the morning and this 10 page document has a lot of oac::grct'.nc for one of the major
points that we're going to be talking about. Now the point that I'm making here
is that in relation to that hind of eIfort on our ?art to produce answers, and
to produce accurate information when we a::ked the panel Mt �� nd..y morning :for some
backup Papers, :�cc:.e de cnatration o:: how they arrived qt their conclusions, you
L;OT a 71977
0
•
emetbet that their report was produced Monday morning, They told us they Were
working on the back up papers, they weren't ready yet. The report had been pub
lished but the back up papers weren't ready. Now the back up papers we sot three
days later. We received the back up papers on Wednesday at 3:15 in the after''
noon and this page of paper, this page of paper With nineteen signatures on it
is the backup work parer. You will receive a copy of this. That I'm trying
to do is put in context for you, and I hope I can pet through this presentat-
ion because one thing does follow after another, without getting off into side
discussions for a moment. We'll be happy to answer any questions....
Rev. Gibson: Mr
Mayor Ferre:
Rev, Gibson:
Mayor Verret
Rev. Gibson:
Father. I'll tell you I think that that is a valid request.
Mr. :Manor, no, no, no. ..r, Mayor, listen to what they're sayitg
Tell tie what your objection is.
I'm not bothering you. Mr. Mayor, I want this commission to lis-
ten to what was said. :'Mr. Grassie made a statement that he asked for the back'
up materials and the professor said no, no. no.
Mayor "arre: Veil wait a minute, the chair is going to rule that I am going
to honor - if you would take a piece of paper and a pen and write down what-
ever questions or cbject:icns you have I think the Manager is entitled under a
Very difficult moment 1 think to have full courtesy, we. will listen to you gun-
til you have finished. You will please write down yonr questions and I will
do the same thing with anybcd ; else who feels the nixed to be t interru• ].:eta and
I will then reco_,nize Dr. Hendrickson, Father Gibson, J. L. Plummer or anybody
else who wants to respond after Mr. Grassie has made his full pr .sentation.
Go ahead.
Mr. Grassie: Thank you, :'!r. Mayor. Thie point that we're making is that in
this whole process, z d.iff:i.c'.:.._ process as wo said to begin with the staff has
been particularly cc::Scicus of going cut of its way ea try and provide? as *such
bac'kerounj r:nd as meth detail based on regeests that were coming very fast as
possible. Now the thing `.hat we wan: to talk about is the four points made in
the report. I think :hat you all ha'.'e copies of Dr. Hendric :ion' s report, the
panel report, in fri.nt of yee, if yo'.i don't wo h:...'e extra copies that we will
pass out to you. wculd like now to give you a set, I have eiven to ':oo a
settcf exhibits that we're going to b. speaking ..o specifically. The first
ea.11bit you will find in that packet is the documentation, ....e beckercene work!.
ing paper that 1 spoke cf just a rinet_ ago. That is marked "a" and it is sim-
ply there for your information. I'm going to ask Howard Gary to speak to the
first two points on the hend iekson Report. If you have th.' Hendrickson Report
in front of you :he I rst i.wo lines .:re the ones that coward Cary will speak
to now.
Mayor Ferre: I think what's happening now is that they're standing up tc get
copies, if cull ex::use that interruption.
Mr. Naples: I think what's happening is we're having another hearing, that'
what we're dcin'o. We're having a new hearing with new information.
:yor Ferre: Gene, 1 think it is perfectly, you know we're i:: the middle of
p l , b eet r, s Th Ma^haset t toi a i1J..'�C heating, .,L'C�_ process. The 3;,;er r@C_L'e � i:C'. rt0 be ntEL'^
rupted so that he can have I:n_l tizte_ to say whatever he wants.
:Mar. ' ap: e- s :
these people
doing it eel,
I just wane to brine one point up, Mr. Mayor and that is that
have e alrr:' i hea ra all this testimony before that hearing and We're q
r : er again.
Mayor Ferro: 1 understand, ;sou'?'- have the opportunity to answer that.
Mrs. Gordon: One more irforl:ati n ceestion, Mr. Mayor. Mr. Grassie, when dial
you have tnis 1rlforma:13n that we have juat received in oiir packet in yQ4r
hands?
;it, Gress:Le; Legit slight at about. 5 O' GlPc11,
*•t
Trial a 'P'-.- =te,
OCT O 1977
gg
MK
OSP
Mayor Ferre: Now let's not get bogged dcwn as to when he had it or when he..
M±, Plummer: Well but I cannot let incorrect statements go on the record. Nov
if you want incorrect statements, Mr. Mayor, on the record then I'll shut up.
Mayot Ferre: J. L., can't you simply take a piece of paper, write it down and
when Mr, Grassie finishes....
Mrs. Gordon: Are you referring to my question, Mr Plummer?
Mr, Plt+nr.*;er: If the Mayor will allow me to answer, yes.
Mrs. Gordcn: Well I want an answer to the question.
Mayor Ferre: Can't the answer wait until ....
Mrs. Gordon: No, I'd like Mr. Plummer to answer it please) Mr, :ayor
have anything other than what Mr. Grassie said, Mr. Plummer?
Mr. Grassie: Let me clarify, Commissioner, are you talking about this
or are you talking about the packet that is in front of you?
Mr. Plummer: That's what's got to be explained.
Mrs. Gordon: The packet.
Mr. Plummer: The answer was that they got it last night. This particular page,
since it has been raised,...
Mr. Grassie: Excuse me, Commissioner, we're suffering from a misunderstanding.
Mr. Plummer: That's right! We sure are.
Mr. Grassie: Commissioner Gorden asked when the packet was available. the.
packet was available, all 35 pages of it and that's *.:hat I responded to. I've
already put on the record when we received this document.
Mr. Plummer: Mr. Grassie, I :could not have any objection to that, sir, except...
Mayor Ferre: Now we're nit picking now, not you but I believe that we're beginn-
ing to knit pick.
Mr. Plummer: Mr. Mayor, I'll shut up. Let the record reflect that Plummer has
stated there are incorrect statements cn the record and no one wants them cor-
rected. I'_'_ shut up.
One page
Mrs. Gordon:
Correct them, Mr. Plummer, and I would like the correct statements
put into the record if there are incorrect statements.
Mayor Ferre: Mr. Plummer, would you quickly make your statements so we can pro
ceed?
Mr. Plummer: Mr. Mayor, the statement of the Manager that this packet was re
ceived last night has to be corrected....
Mayor_Ferre: Would you proceed with the correction of it?
Mrs. Gordon: Well, let him finish.
Mayor Ferre: I'm trying to get it over with quickiy,'Rose,
Mrs. Gordon: Well scme things are important to come out ;n full,
"iayor Ferre: Go ahead, J. L.
Mr. Plummer: Mr. Mayer, I am only raising for the correction because this paper
was questioned as to the availability and when it was delivered. Rose, the
first page of this report, I have not looked at the rest, was, in fact, delivered
Wednesday at 3:15. The second exhibit shows one as September 30th. Cther parts
of this packet were used in frcnt of the cermittee. Now the statement of Mr.
Grassie that the packet was not assembled and put toeetne' as a packet un;i1
last ni rat is correct but many of these documents were used in the hee- ines,
thecopy Trot: the work papers, the summ ry of the work papers irem FIT,: was
Wednesday so I don't want the record to be incorrect.
Mayor Ferre: All right, is the public
Grassie, will you proceed now, sir.
record now clear Mt
Mt. Grassie: Well. I'm afraid I have to
Mr. Plummer: Please do if I'm wrong,
Mr, Grassie: I said fire minutes ago, C tmissioner, that we received this
document Exhibit "A" at 3:13 on Wednesday and Weit:e written it across the t
of the document.
Mr. Plummer: Correct, sir.
.
Mr. Grassie: That's signed for by Mr. Gunderson when he received it. There
is no question about that. Exhibit "C" happens to be a memorandum m f : rc;a :ir.
Gary that I spoke to just a minute a?C and I said that he provided this to the
committee ^t the ce...;.0 ttee's request cn Friday. Now that wai very clear.
Mr, Plummer: That's correct..
Mr, Grassie: Every other document in this packet is new.
:it. Plummer: Mr. Grassie, I call to }'our--- You're saying Exhibit "Celt
Mr. Grassie: Yee, :::Bible t`C" which is the memorandum I spoke to'five '.11.nilt}'cS'
ago.
Mr. Plummer: Ok, that is the one that was delivered on September
M:r, Grassie: That's what I'm saying, Commissioner.
At. Plummer: think, Mr. Grassie, the question being cSke Q by Mrs. Gordon In
fairness, was any if these doc_ments available prior to this meeting for the
commission to study. The ars:.et• ehouid heee been yes, some of them were.
That's the point I'm meld -
Mrs. Gordoa: That was the reeso`': for t.1F_ quest:) n, the reason being, whet, one.
receives a nof in large asthis withra
eCei�t_.S packet c.:Or-: Lam^ that 19 � � �..i5 one as rig'
figures it takes time to stud' them and I wondered whether or not we would
have had teat to^per:unit': is it had been =zee available to us.
Mr. Plummer: I think that is the very ;tint that Mr. Grassie was going to
bring hems,
Mayer Ferro: Look, '. think we've clarified this ne1ond, ten tires beyond =eal•
ist_c ,inns and I think at this time I'll ca..i anybody else: cot of order and
you could proceed, Mr. Grassie.
Mr. Grassie: Well ,,.here we;: were. _!r. Mayor, was that we were trying to pro-
ceed without interruption to a presenteticn by Mr. Gary on the first two points
of the Hendrickson Report and I would line Ior him to have a chance to do that
now.
..r. Howard Gary: Good morning, CJmmiss_...oers, as a :refire:`.ce to my response
to eonolusi es oee and two cf the repce:. I could state that since the issuance
> rpm a1r1 ±r ei the City has somewhere
Or the repot.: many � C^C�1c are c� �'_..c... _ thatw.. C__• .1...: hidden se. £�a -
appro:.mate' 3. - million dollars. I think the ;eases fur '. h_s is the: the
repere did no: make any qua i:ic::tions or exelanaeLlns _cr their c ncl'u ions.
:is a result of this the credibility __ the Department of B dger Management has
been questioned. Now if you recut_, :•' cri� na1 c ntc aid Mr. Grassie
stated i- earlier, is :ha: the City iticeld have e appro::ir:. eel_ 1 ..2 :rillicn dol-
lars in fund balance.
As a result of this statement lct of issues have been
raised that :he fund balance would be 3.2 millice dollars. Now my initial
contention is that it woul.. be 1.2 and I still __and by the fact :hat the fund
balance would eot exceed 1.2 or approximately $ 1 , 0OC, J 'C unless we begin the
practice that. we did in Newark, New Jersey cr New Yor, cf postponing Oi..r axe dare.,
ores cf future years.
Gorr:rone Sad that sr r, -repeat wnat \Feu just eeid
}
OCT Gi19/
a .Any: well, as I stated I still believe that we have approximately $14000,000
in Fund Balance which is the amount of :coney that is the difference between ex-
penditures and revenues for fiscal year 77. The Only way we will exceed one mile-
lion or achieve 3.2 billion dcilars in fund balance as related by other parties
is that if we postpone expenditures of future '.ears. Now, in response to Con-
elusion (1), the committee states that if the 167 employees are not laid off the
City would generate 800-1.4 .:.illior. dollars. Now we have gone through the detail
records of the various people that will be laid Off, the 167 and I have the work
papers right here before me. Now we have found cut that the cost for those 167
people represents $244,361 and if ycu turn tc exhibit "B" you will see a summary
by department for the cost of severance pay for the 167 people and this takes
into consideration unemployment ccmpensatien for the 167. So in effect the re-
port is in error at the low end of approximately a half a million dollars and
at the high end of approximately 1.2 million dollars. Now, I must state for the
record that we presented to the panel a memorandum which is Exhibit "C". And
if you would please on page 9 of that memorandum, 9 of 16, in the second para-
graph we inform the panel of how our, what was the foundation for projecting
severance pa': for fiscal 7S. In the second paragraph we stated that this year
that we will pa:. 3.2 million -• dollars and actually - I'm en page 9 of 1_5, Ex
�t rt _ Exhibit
C , second paragraph. New as of August 13, 1977 fcr severance pay we had ex-
pended $2,G00,000. Now using, this as _. base we did cur projections and it re-
vealed that the cit.: would pay 2.3 trillion dollars. Now we further :Dent and
had a ccrputer print out of the cost of severance pay which I have before tie
and as of September we had expended S2,178,000. e verify: that we also went
into the detailed payroll records in the Finance Department snd found that we
expended in exzess of 32,000,000. New the reason that 1 brine this up is that
in the repast cr the work sheet that wereceived which is pace "A"
i.. appears
that an arbitrary figure was determined fcrseverance. What they did '_s
a: p
took the high and the low of :he period previous to the layoff period and after
the layoff period and assume that that was a cost of severance pay for normal
employees and that evidently the balance must be for the laid off employees.
In essence what I':: sayin_ to you is tha: the data was provided tc them and that
these figures are, in fact, in error of S500,C00 to 1.2 million dollars. Now,
in conclusion (2) the cc mitte._ states that the City will generate in addition
to the 1.3 million dollars .Mat you have in :our budget as a revenue item for
salary statements we would generate an aiCiticnal S1,000,000. Now I would ll'r:e
for you to turn tc exhibit "D" in your packet, the st:ti.uar': sheet. Now what we
have done here i, that we nave allocated the 1.5 million, dollars to the :'ariou
departments as well as a million dollars. New if you look at the fourth column
it reveals that for the Police Department for their share of the 1.5 million
dollars they would have to .:.ain:ain on the average position 65 positions for
half a year, for the Fire 21 positions. The net total of that is 181 positions
that would have to remain vacant for half a year on the average position. Now
this we have to achieve fcr this fiscal year for the mere fact :hat in your
budget document yes' have anticipad million as revenue 1.3 mill r�- �o^. dollars. Now if '70'1
go to column (5) this is. the additional number of positions on the average that
would have to be maintained by each department for ha__ a year and you rou1d
notice that in the Police Department they would have to maintain an additional
43 positions, Fire IL dawn to a total of 120 positions. Now if you add that
to the given amount tha: we have to save of 181 just to offset the 1.5 million.
dollars�in our budget as anticipated revenues the city would have to maintain
approximately 302 positions vacant en the average position for a half a year.
Now the reason I'm bringing that out is that if you turn tJ Exhibit 'E" which
is this long sheet (it'sfolded b y have nicshould � fGyuC up but you iC open ic L'7. Sne.U-.. be in
the back of your package) what we have done here is we've tah. n the vacancies
that exist in the budget as ef O.::ober 2. New the first column if ycu go OJ
totals, if you ggo across it s totals. Up at the wether of
_top have number
V3CanL positiens y department. "ow, inthis report we have scearated out :hose
positions that are present'' ih the bud e'c that are vacant tha: sre ded e Fred
for various purposes. At the top you will see Police Grants, those vacancies
must be filled be_ause the fends have been providedbyfederal
Z various f 2C2 3 and
state officials to spend that money for a particular purpose. The Convention
Canter Bond :and moneys, you must spend it for that particular purpose, CoLr un-
ty Development Block Grants likewise, Now, if you move down co the bcttcm line
where it says totals ;you will see that discounting those positions that are
dedicated for various purposes the City has approximately 125 vacar.o_es as of
October 1 in the new budget. However, if you look on the line ghat says Leisure
Services you will see an asterisk by the number .:.4 and you will see a double
asterisk by the numoer 3.. Those are temporary: part time seasonal help that we
use•' for ..amyl.- Recreation Program which lasts approximate'_': 2. 'months. So
if we taste those 5: ihto "cnsiceraticn ;dell it is 5e with the astei'iaks
.'ir, Mayor, ';;u take those 58 into Conside_ anon ycu will see that we rea . .y
,4
OCT Cli977
do not have 123 vacancies, it is more like 6; vacancies available. 1:ow the reason
lice bringing this up is that it is my professional o-linicn that if departr:ents are
required to save an additional $1,000,000 which means nlintainiLe an additimnai
121 vacancies for half a year the departments will be hard pressed to provide crit-
ical services or we will have a deficit budget .or both. Mir. :Manager, that concludes
my statements.
Mr, brassie: i wculd __.:e, fir. Mayor, to have .sir: Gunderson the Finance Director
to respond to tile. retaining two points on Dr. Herdrickson's Report,
Mr, Jir.. Gunderson: Mr. Mayor and members of the commission, if you would turn
lit your packet to Exhibit "..-t, y this exhibit has been prepared to reSDOiid to
Item ? i.i the advisory panel's report. The ,.:r,C.:nt that that panel sai::S is avail-
Able is 506 thousand, 699 thousand. .:ow on Exhibit "r" you will note that the
total budgeted for operations within the eiitar'rise funds is 83,344,000, The
want that is needed from the General Fund to support that is S699,80cr 21:
of all operations cost within the enterprise i..r_:s are 'being su'?ortcd by the
transfer of the `Toney fr:Ci the General Fund. Over and above that there was
$506,000 1- - ' :a:':a11.da�_ in unallocated .:%d_ within the :natal ji1G^_Ct for the enter-
prise fur:d3. That money was cet aside for extraordinary ,..nir.tcn;.:lce and if you
will look at t.n:. report by en n_."_•s nt:achee tc' :ihibit "Ftt you can tt'.un±
.. through nd s?e the items associated "wit:l ay. asterisk that retresents the amounts
that wCUL: be necessaryto be expended in :he ftrtncc:'an,; fisca_. .'e%r of this
fiscal year startl.ng October 1st in the total amount of S457,000 t: provide the
maintenance in order to keep the facilities Operational. That ii:u'r-' includes
830.000 for Orange Bowl major maintenance .vhich icnid be av aiia::i.2 if the bond
issue posses cn November 3th. In other words the minimum is 377.000 which is
the figure fight below there. Now the ac`__eris ._vailJ `).e the alternatives s avail-
able tc the commission as the result of the report would be to eliminate all
the extraordinary ,...aint_„anoe of the 526.000 tc subsidize the enterprise funds
by transfer .n_; that amount to the cperatinn hut you would also have to cut
another 1?2,r00 from epratons because it ts=ailv requires 699,000 t sucpert
the full .ip =ration. So e':en if u''.' foregone the tct:l major extraordinary
repairs that are essential and used that msney for :aa:ra-ri nal purposes you
would C't"i.._ cl e to c:.- th., entt!rprise funds V' 192,995. Of course, on the
right tr:.t the 2u:'sequ` %es cf dsing _ O ..,.s been tabulated. i:.at will cur-
tail t:.-. facilities' .' operat__ns tnd create hazardousoperati.t.ns.
Postponing
tnt major ma in stn a... -a f u:thcr deterioration the
s facilities
value- at aa: 'u't The .,....,.nd approach that is possible is transfer
6. 00i3 o ;he . -.ra •-� la .rcr.. the $5) ,')0O. in
.O the �, _ from .. i?_ ... ...,.. caul. use �.. u�i :n-e the
until l oc 't 'd amount and that is the diff f:.i'c.ace between the total amount o:
extraordinary na._:1t..nandc which is ,000 and 506,C00 that's there aid use
that ", 0'C0 ••q._ d a'. that 2.-"cun' t: the - en€'r al Fund and you would have
�✓J which u=1. J _ ..,
a net s. . _ `s to the General run_ ot approximately 50,000 doing it that way.
The third sugsest..cn by the panel was to load the r-crLey to the e'n Ct.prise fund.
Wall, anyb.ody who _ricks az the ::r.t..r;,__se funds ..a_w_.:y that we hove to subsi-
dize rhea: like . e will r o ,. • , _..._. r.: at =-,theenterprise f _ads do not
li ::� .._ l.�li .e i. that
have in the fsre eeab__1. futfire c. way to rEp. the lcan. if you did loan the
r
:::One' from the rGeneral Fund wh__,. _3 the on fund that really has the money
1 1, t 1 ? 1� f - over periods o f tine and require a
available �. o .�... would in e____t o _ long ,. r_;:-cs , ,
long period ^I :::flea', you wsu_d curtail cas.. manacement Of :he General Fund. In
the next exhibit,_:hibir".:", addresses the fourth point of tht. pasel. The
e
F:1ahC? Department SL.^:t_CC independently _ financial report ofthe estimated
ed
fund oeli is to :he pane:. approximately several 'ours after it held its first
meeting, Those figures are :esentsdenthis schedule, Exhibit"G". The
first. figure in schedule "A" was the projected . _:•eruct: and that- has not been
contested an the r .:Or_ by the panel _C' it remains there. . : en=it::res Payroll.,
Sc1iet'L'1., ''.1," s:.;..: fitted the p:,n-i well o: million has not bee contested
S "C" r •t t_ 7 ^.n•' attached _bits
Non -Payroll. � _..1cC'1_2s ..?... been contested _ and . _ have � 3,. aCi E.. exhibits,
,
n of �Scheduleno. i6,,,33,01:; _..d :ciao. schedule represents .... <:......,....^,a~.iC.^. ..::d re-,
v.. _ and a._ CPA's Dr. my staff who have a `e led to _^•. .act t of
t) e+ figures 1'1! 7sente"d a:e c ,re:a.. ,.ow in the :-in; taper t a: :io received
from the a7.:?el , the one page, the last portion of that was designated (-,) and
ti_ ) = solely S_ae»a_•_' "C" Star at the nor.
•-� l'.� 3da;T''..cc3 ..fora_ wr:..- calf. Sly :^ , .... ...
TOIR�an lock at the l:s: it wi. It says, considering i 7.;0, C00 aa.ntinge:`.'Cy :o 0
:and comes uj) with a facto:' of 3:0, 100, ... Ok, :his one, .,.e one that i s sub-
mitted
^1.'•.tCcc1 by Cie. panel. The Iirs: page. ... Yes. I.OJ .... 3: ► last :.:1
e:;n bit "A". It _a:~ , consider? 700,000 contingency, ✓,- 250,00D, 1':cw i
4.t. is important t.i:::i explain the Sera:__.s in this case and I'd like to character,
i.7.c t l l tra” a''.'.... , and this kiri uf a re^•crt which is endemic :n this wCloi.e
i.roCess, tat it is haphazard, s'ips . a' arbitrary _ _. and c p r+ "' ^"s. And l.et hie
.. l i 'ly ,• ' ! ,iii, 33Vi was asked y '�.�•»,.e • .nee, c" i. uestitsa came: Teri C7.,,r..:
^r `4.,4 ')33; e: 1: a _D :ii,-M r.. '«
_* ajthe c st s fOr Cairo; P?rt'
1
liability; and I said the Rosen Case and another case, and I said if you need any
pore information thete is the City attorney. The City Attorney that I had pointed
to k+as sitting next to Commissioner Plumper and it was not the City Attorney, it
Was the Deputy, Jose Alvarez. The panel did not ask one question of that man
regarding those liabilities. Now, we see they have the afrontry to whack it by
50%. The truth of the matter is if you will go back to exhibit "G" you will
see a letter now signed by the City Attorney indicating that the total liability
is closer to 1,375,000, my estimate was considerably low. Let's point out the
next one - arbitrary, slipshod, capricious - we have the item called Contingency
Fund S74,9 8, that's on their exhibit "A". It says contingency. I was asked
the question what that was for and I told them that that was $75,000 transferred
actually out of the Contingency Fund to the Latin American Trade Fair and that's
a fact and it has so been attested by four CPA's in the report that is attached.
;low that information was told to them and vet they have arbitrarily haphazardly
capriciously put it in here as an additional amount.
Mr. Plummer: :!r. Mayor, I've left to interject. Now I'm just Got, Mr, Mayor,
I am surprised that yea allow Mr. Gunderson to express in terms which I consider
to be very much out of order. If Mr. Gunderson wishes to state for the record
that this statement or this exhibit is incorrect, he feels that it is incorrect
I think that is a gentlemanly way to do it but fcr him to use the adjectives
that he is usinz I personally take it as an afront to the committee of which I
was a member.
Mayor Ferre: All right, :•!r. Gunderson I think that is a valid statement, I
think it would be wiser if we toned .sown the adjectives. I would hcpe that we
could, even though I well understand that the implication of the report do as
the Manager stated in the beginning spear to the absolute credibility cf you and
your stare and Mr. Hcward Gar.: and his staff sc I understand your feelings and
I'm sure that this is nct an easy thing :or us to be involved in. I frankly:
feel that Plummer is right, we're better off without strong adjectives. I would
hope that, of course, Mr. Plummer and the rest of this commission would feel
the same way about e'.'ery speaker regardless of what side they represent. Go
ahead.
Mr. Plummer: Mr. Mayor, if there is any question I would be appreciative that
you would correct me if I ....
Mayor Ferre:
I have no questions, go ahead.
Mr. Gunderson: The upshot of all of this is that on Exhibit "G" you can see
where the nec result is 1,123,000 in fund balance as projected by very com-
petent staff, by members who are CPA's and recognizes such and not the amount
that is proje:ted by the ?anel in excess of 2 million or 2.3 million.
Mrs. Gordon: May I ask Mr. Gunderson a question at this point?
Mayor Ferre: No, Mrs. Gordon, I will not allow that unless Mr. Gunderson is
finished. You know if you are finished and 1r. Grassie is finished I will open``'
it up to the commission for questions.
Mrs. Gordon: No, it is just information of opinion
Mayor Ferre: You write it down and you'll ask it when Mr. Grassie is finished.
Mr. Grassie: 4r. Mayor, I know that this is a difficult process and we will
not prolong it from our end. I will try and snrmarize for you where we are.
Please look atExhibit "H" this the last one. ;What we have tried
, d to do,
m_. Mayor, on this exhibit in as straight forward a manner as possible is to
present the conclusions cf the panel, present the dollar results that they have
assigned to _heir conclusions and present a column which corrects these totals.
In the first case rather than having the E00,000 to a million feuthat the;
estimated based cn an individual analysis person ter person cf the 167 positions,
and we have the documents to back that up right here on the table, the saving
would be 8=4=.,000. This represents a severance cost for the 1:7 p3SitiCflS.
Now that so-called sa':ines brings with it the salary liability if you don't let
them be laid of_ it brings the liability cf approximately $3,000,003. So when
we talk about a saving of $2•:4,000 that's a very relative thing. The second
conclusion with regard to ;.salary lapse, they say a million dollars to a million
two hundred thousand dollars, we nave put :hat figur'_ :.n there as a million do' T
lass, it is true. Now you could use antizipated salary savings c' pay+fcr Car -
rent obligations, hat you would do is you would oblige every department to
hold the vacancies chat we pointed cut to you in detail in total of 20'. for an
average si:: month period. Keep in mind that some of those vacancies are acing
to be for njna months, some cf them are going to be fcr three months but spread
OCT u 1977
OVet:the year or the averace they're all going to be for 6 months, 302 Vacancies.
That would be the result of that kind of a decision, The third conclusicn with
regard to taking money from the enterprise fund yes, you can do it. You could
take the fund balance which is $506,000. What that means is that you would 3o
no Major maintenance on 2317 million dollars worth cf city zlssee.ts, some of that
maintenance being critical. the fcurth conclusion where they identify a million
to a Million and three hundred and fifty thousand dollars, that is simply wrote.
We do not have the option of not payirec for obligations which have been incurred
this year, we simply have ta pay for them and that money is not available. So
when you cane dcwn to the bottom line rat laying off people adds to your cost.
approximately $3,000,000, just over $3.000,000. The best that you can hoPe for
if you accept ail of the policy implications that they have outlined is that
you would turn up $1,751,GOO with all the penalties that are involved in that
process which means, of course, tha: we don't have a balanced budget. You can't
add 3.2 million dollars of expense and find 1.7 million dollars worth of so-
called revenue and present you a balanced budget. And with that, Mr. Mayor, we
would be open to questiens.
Mayor F,erre: Ali right, Mrs. Gordon. •
Mrs. Gerden: Nr. Gunderson, in your stateaent that you mad= acccrdine to the
way you made t'nem I .gather that you cen't acree with the Manager in that he
stated yes there wan monies that could he used or there were munias that were
indizated by the panel and you said no there are nct. Is that true?
Mr. Gunderscn: No, what I was addressing myself to was the two items - the
enterprise tnan and the fund balance. There isn't any money availab'ee in fund
balance over and abou what we have reported to you give or take the hundred
thousand dollars, we're net goinc.. to ...
Mrs. C,orden: The qnostion is a pointed one, do you agree with the Mana;.er that
there is meney avaib1e if this coemiesion ,:hould so desire zu fund the posit-
ions that were eu,geceted for layoff:
Mr, Gunderson: Cnly in the context that he said money was available. 'des,1
would area with him enly in the :text that
Mrs. Goren: ...irieht, that's whet 1 wanteC to know, if you agreed.
Mr. Grassie: T17 I ma:-, Mr. Mayor, le: me repeat what 1 said. There is as you
can see 'n Exhibit "H" 1.7 millicn dollars, $1,751,000 which is available, if
you don't „are abeue the consequeneee it is availahle and we both area to that.
Mrs. Gorden: The money that was laid out for the Trade Fair, isn't that money
that will' be reimbure.ed t.-2. the city from several sources ineluding federal
grants and a:aer orancs:
Mr. Grassie: is not.
Mrs. Gorden: None of it? Is the city gclin3 in the hole for three hundred. 41n,
, .
some odd thousand ‘..1e1lars without reimbursement?
Mr. Graseie:
Mr. Plummer:
That ::s correct.
Mx. Grassie: —ear has alweys been che case.
Mrs. Cor:5-z.n: as, bur after that wasn't there also information that was giNep
to us whereby we wc're co receive ,icmditionsi funds from the federal eeever.e.-
ment?
Mayor Ferre: Yes, up to a total if a $1,100,C00. In other words there's
S306,000 from the city and $150,000 from the state, .$150,060 from the c:uhty
and up to $200,000 Iron the federal goverumeet.
Mrs, Cerden: ..,the city's portien, wasn': there an addit7lohal ellocation to
be by way of a :an: towards that?
te: c:etribetil,n of the cirY. The (1;!t'.''s
e-PCI.trib.:.t.10n rains as it hia4 always been reported tc ';ou and as you are
aPProFriated,
,/ Lecreeee
OCT -1
IfsGordon In the budget page 22 which allocates $2221000 to operation of the
balias Park which no longer ate going to be needed for that purpose, where have
YOU reallocated it?
Mt, Grassie: Two points, Commissioner. First, obviously you know that we are
operating the Justice Building now as office space whereas we did not have any
expense for that facility before and most of that ;Honer will ;o to that purpose.
The second point that I would like to raise with you simply as a question is
whether you want us to respond to things that are not germain to the report of
the panel in which case we'll be happy_ to do that, I just want to know whether
that's what you want us to do?
Mayor Ferre: Yes, I think she's obviously entitled to ask any questions she
wants on anything. I mean you knew you finished your report any commissioner
obviously can ask any questions and I'm going to recognize you in a moment for
your answer I'm sure and then I'll recognize Dr. Barry. Ok, any other questions•
from the commission before we proceed? All right, :'!r. Plummer.
Mr. Plummer: Mr. Mayor, I have questions and comments. Mr. :-Mayor, I'm sorr,.
although _ do not apologize that i had to interject during :'!r. Gunderson's pres-
entation. Mr. Mayor, in defense of the panel which they can de_`ond themselves
but I was chair: -.:an and I feel that I should, I have produced here, Mr. Mayor,
this box which any of you can look at and see the documents that were entered
as exhibits that these four men had to and did 4o through in 31 hours and came
up with an answer. I don't den. Mr. Gunderson or the administration the right
to argue that they're wrong, I merely called because of the terminology. Mr.
Grassie has raised his point which '_ think needs ciaritication that exhibit "A"
of this document which you have was not produced by the panel until Wedne_dav at
3: 15. Without going through the chairman, and I have :.o truck with that the
administration directly went to the panel and asked and made a request for cer-
tain things. Mr. Grassie: called me_ if T.'m not mistaken on either Monda
y after-
noon or Tuesday morning asking if . would help the administration secure these
documents quicker so that they could prepare a response. I immediately called
Dr. Hendrickson who indicated that :he had not, in fact, asked for the work
papers out a s•.iar, of the work papers and since four people were involved Dr.
Hendrickson 1 assume was the one who had to bring all of the work papers together
'o
to produce a summary. I immediately called Mr. Grassie and told him the papers
would be read: on Wednesday morning, unfortunate:' it was ;.ednesday afternoon.
Mr. Grassie countered with the fact that they had not asked for a summary that
they had asked for :he work papers Therein lies a discrepancy of semantics. and
I don't Know who is right and who's wrong. All I r:ncw is according to doetcr as
he understood it they had asked for a summary which was not just a matter of
producing the work papers. Now, Mr. Gary in his presentation gave you in exhibit
"3" a cop': of a paper wni.h this panel asked Ior repeatedly, repeatedly and that
is how much is the severance pa} only relating to :hat 167 employees. That quest-
ion was never answered - never answered. Mr. Gunderson, and we have :apes of
these meetings by the way, Mr. Gunderson' s answer was that it was impossible to
give that answer until :.e knew exattly the name of the individuel and the payroll
records of that individual. The panel asked of Mr. Gunderson will you gi7e us
an estimaz_ and the enswer was that there was no way possible. Liey were trying
to separate from: the projected 2.3 million dollars that relating to the 1E7
proposed lay-offs. The panel I can on:: assume will hove to speak for themselves
that they had to derive a formula i:_-:wou:.d give them answer. In re
lation
to th a enter: _aa fun ,._ wh._th :r. Gunderson spoke, although _ have : een accused
of not being cb ect-•.'= _n the hearings 1 made it vetclear because >tr. .:a;.cr, you
charged me with uric_ trying to find the truth hd : would, in fact, in er:ec :any-
thing into that hearing ,.:at _ thought would 'oe helpful to the _'she_ if .:cneore
wishes to take objeotion se :e it they d . not rare y feelings. The enterprise
funds, "r. Mayor, in 1y estimation tried to make very :_ear .:o the panel and
personally fetd that the panel is :Tong, I now speak as a commissioner not
Chairman of r.ne arei and : have a right to do such and I will always oxen_ Sc
that r. cht . : call to your attention that the enterprise fund, :'r . :•t _ •or , in
„ `t -} a.. instance that thistor.. i .n. made a decis-
ion E J3 __f:; _ �..,. _ that .. :l'.11_5 Ohl not the administration�:.G... � -
i,^.n a_ tbo time of the marina increased rates that if an iri_r_ase was psssed that
any moneys _ neraz ed in excess of that needed for operation and maintenance would
be used for further improvements to r.n.e '.farina and I'm sure all of •n-u willwould
that very heated discussion. The - r. 1 's basic philosot ... that
f.`rids should :e able to o rot: wags, chat any moneys pumped into ...e enterprise
funds _f tremendous sur. 1s.yes accrue should to having the right to g: 'Lack te
w ers the mole_' oame frr,ry 1t unfortunately that doesn't hal7nen here : eca.lse we
.have never see: ncr had :he ot:ortuni__' of finding any surplus in :n__n,ter-
_-•rifle fund. :hex's . ,.asp not the loi_1rj there. 1:veryons or them 'witnou' %�"-
±Q i : a�e :ways :been a . e -c_t so t :''
T ee is nc way c`- _ _ r;0 •s, .cs one
way, :at _. .:rr.irtu:i,�te. `.Ir. G�u".'..ersoh spoke to the fact `o f . _s '.it4mate c
$"OOM00o., and I forget the ter^Iinology but basically it was For the purpose of
the COnSent becree. T_ would like tO bring to the co missio 's attention that One
Of the ex-ibits which is contained here is the Consent Ce_ree itself. I can only
assu'te that 1 had the authorization to say that the panel went through eV ; one
rr
Of these documents that they, in fact, had t� s o t. ty s . teed t sent
_ / :� _ ;n, _. ..` the Cons
Decree in which it is going to cost: this city dollar.s which r.o cdt has ever dis-
put•d. Now thce only thing that : recall, and here 1'I:; testing my memory, that,
I
in fact, the contention before the bsari: g was that there was $1.00, iOC set aside
to pay those Psonle of the affected class, 1 am now hearing dollars of s700,.i00
and even a million. Excuse me.? Well, 1 think nr. Gunderson made the cctn ent
that he projected $700,000....
Mr. Grassi,.: Not on the Consent Decree, Ccnti £sioncr , liability.
Mr. Plummer: Not on the Consent uaecnee, Ok, 1 stand corrected.. Mr. Hayor, those
are comments tents which you asked ;:le to write down, 1 think they needed clarifying for
the record. :'r. Mayor, there are you know -sit here, Mr. Mayor, 1 fee
- j' 1 .t�
a::i
I did this c'c mi. 5:.on a d_.s ati :e. _ really do, because as chairman oonducting hearings, s, Mr. Mayor, 1 ;a:: SC e a lit o: things that : never saw ere :nl'iC,'.
I'm going to tell yousomething - at best these hearings were damned educational. -
and I feel that _T haYe de_ rive;: you the other members of .his commission the
right to Cet an instant total immersion of education. There are ..any thins here,
M.r. Mayor, a'•:.., 1 could go ton end I'm not going to because my vote will ti.e predi-
cat
ed ::.. cn that .L:iCJr:lit..... '.;ills...'. ti:d'... that 1 don't know ..•3w ar,.Ci.E? else, will sit
through 'i: leoem you actually '.Yer:: privileged to sit through thiise hearings as 1
was, and 1 consider it a <; :ri-. e ..... r :_cruse 1. cemo Cyst `no- ,,, cd c=re i ndi'� idua1
than when . went in.
".rs. Gordon: : want .to ask ' U a .-Cinted ^1uestl:•n.
Yr. . i....,..r: :.. 'I h'oh instance?
Mrs. GCS...,^,::. Do you agree with the osnei
these ! ;'cam._`.?
'•ir. Plummer: :.0 .e , 1 agree with ens pa:
Mayor . err'e: LookJ. L., e::cusc: the interruption : efcre you. answer that : want •
onthe record to make only _ne•_:;rr.c.`.io of. :he s.'.ace.'zer.:s that y.^r: ...
have not heard anybo :_ criticine vci for being subjective as chairman. 3n. the Con-
trary, ever' :c : that 1 ' 7:.' tslkad to said that you aid a zrer.len .c.. a job, that you
were dedicated, .:3L vc,were fair, you ,; re impartial, that you were open r
minded a::d th..t you asked the right cues.. -on and that i permitted .._e process.
- don't ...`.C.:•. who. :lade ...__..,.t:".t tut _.=''.:..t it's the Fir:- t_1'.c heard
anybody ..i..- that .....s..a.._ion .;i9'__.. se T have ..•J_._.. it '_=a' the osi .. what
i wanted co co at the __nisi: :i these deliberations was actually .... ^.a:::: a _Cesc-
l:a:ct ::::.."Lndiny you thankingand you t fromwhat 1 know isyyour tusy
schedule and 1 w:...ted to thin.. Carol an.. : wanted t:, t e:. k Larry and your dad and
everybody in your business for a` : c you or being patient with you while you •
tock s. many :Cars and I would 5o 'eve off . :.a1L . on the record.
Mrs. ::crdtn: ..-. Mayor, would you 'et him grill' me an answer t7 the ees:ion?
Mayor -'• Ya: . .i, bu:. r though: that was a personal
Mrs. Gordon: I agree z "a'.. we all aporec..a. e his time and effort
„P„Ira`,
cOr.dOn when the _--•- s--- o%- .ete•C:^Eer -DOt'•
now, • c- i}t i
M 'lloM, ar, would you answer :1_ cut ...:.on, plea :a?
Mayor rre:
Ma: Cr " rrm -.:,d 1 was C:.. to . c' lord ..r , ::.0 S".^t.'r f',r his .d=1_ er?t?,.0x ,..
u t that t..'I!r__ ,
Mr‘, _ • rthat:-epic him '. to give .ma r
"'"Ut .Gi. 't- .. `a' >` �•-a:?-:7 =„'ll -V•: .olio' '.ra a'nsWer.
:),tr, ? 2 $lilt e r
n �' rt / lc-1 i 7
Mrs Gordont 1 can always rescind that you know,
the following resolution was introduced by Mayor t•taurice Terre)wh&
ttoved its adoption:
RESOLUTION NO. i2.470
A RESOLUTION COMMENDING COMMISSIONER J. L. PLUM ER, JR. FOR
HIS TIRELESS EFFORTS AS CHAIRMAN OF THE BUDGET ADVISORY COM-
MITTEE AND EXPRESSING THE _ ? TITUDE OF THE COMMISSION TO
CAROL PL7.1•1.' ER, LAW:FE:NCE H. ?LUM:•fEc. AND JOSEPH PLUM:•tER, SR.,
FOR THE SUPPORT GI7EN Y "'HEM TO CO;_'•1ISSICNE?. PLUM•1ER, WHICH
ENABLED HIM TO ST:CCZZSF LLY AOCO:4 1ISH THE CEJECTI:ES OF
THE COMMISSION.
(Here follows moody Of resolution, omitted here and on file
in the Office of the City Clerk.)
Upon being seconded by Commissioner Gordon, the resolution was;
passed and adopted by the following vote -
AYES: Commissioner :dangle ?ebozc
Commissioner Rose Gordon
'lice -Mayor (Rev.) Theodore Gibson
Mayer Maurice A. Ferre NOES: None.
Mr. Plummer: :1_. Mayor, as far as the question being raised about my Objectivity
let me say to you - live very well with my conscience and I Slept very well that
night. ::r. }savor, to answer Mrs. Gordon's question, 'Ls. Gordon if your question
is pinpointed to one specific answer...
Mrs. Gcrdo... It's to the charge that was given to the body.
Mr. Plummer: All richt, let me answer it this way and see if it ,will answer" yot
question: Yes and no _ agree with the ;anel.
Mrs. Gordon: Oh honey, that's hot the way 1 wanted it.
Ye L �_it. s,there.
Mr.P1«:^.4?ler. now let me explaint: .e money is .. er
with the panel? No.
Mrs. Gordon: You agree the :Honey is available to retain the employees?
Mr. Plummer: Mrs. Gordon, there are always two sides to every story. The oppo-
site side of this story Mr. Grass:= has stated yes, (Honey is there to continue
for one more year. Them is as I understand it no discrepancy. The panel has
said :es the money is there, .1r. '.rassie has stated `;es you ca.. do it for one
more year _-t .:'re delaying the _re'. itarle. T concur with hcth Mr.. 'G-a sale
and the panel you're J
limitin3 yourself to a specific question.
Yes, the :Honey is there.
Mrs. Gordon: 3ov, you've got a good political answer, J. L.
Mr. Plummer: No, Rose, I'm answering your question.
Mayor Ferre: Doesn't it agree with you?
Mrs. Gordon: No, beo.ause he's giving two answers to. the same quast-
ion.
Mr, Fiummer: Rose, I'ei answering your question - Do - concur with
the pane', do I concur 100' with the panel - I've already said to
you I disagree in the area of the enterprise fun:;, I've already -
told you that, t;ose. No, I don't 100% agree with the panel.
Thereupon the City Commission recessed from 10:35 A.M, and moon-
veined at 11:00 A,M.
Mayor Ferre:
G o o'i ;
'!rs, Gordon, :ell reecgnizc yo4 now,
I'll peas,
T3g4s@ MO
va-
� A
OCTGsgar
Mrs: Gordon: I'ia not asking it now, mr: Mayor, I'll ask it «hen t
feel like it,
Mayor Ferret Oh boy
suga
Mt Plummer: this is going `to be a long , day,
Mrs, Gordon: 1'11 «ait for all the infornatjon,
Manor Terre: All right, is there anybody else on the comitissian
at this time that wishes to make a statement or ask any cuesticns?
if not I'm going to recognize,..
Re Gibson: Let tie ask this, Mr ♦ Mayor, before we go on, I wrote
this Uowc. These papers that we were given, I remember when Mr.
Grassie was making his presentation a member of the team or two mem-
bers of the team were ncddin.2 their 1-,ead s, You know I preach and
I know if you watch that coneret a:ion you know whether you're com-
ing on and you also .:noi, when to quit it you're smart. Those :'len
were not in accord with some thin;_ that were being said. One of
the things 1 ..ant to as, were ,you all privy to this information?
Mt. ?lum er: r.accuse me, part of it :'nu were.
Mty r Ferre: Doctor, I'm sorry, Dr. '.l•endrickscn I'ii recognise Lou.
i:'_ a moment. There is a lacy that has to leave and she .
_ has awed
special permission to address the commission since this is a public
hearing I'm going to make an exception with her and Mrs. Tells, I'll
recognize _ .'•S at this time to make a brief statement.
Mrs Wells: I'd like to thank you very much. I'd like to say that
perhaps in the pest we have been remiss in not co in' t: the Coi'1^iss-
ien Meet e eft. n with _
should. Y, n.,.cia s :'.: it:l _'s. i,cci1 I'm re;:resenting .
co:..Muai`" , the Northwest Common-ICommun-It7 As.,oc...a:ior.. We h;7e been "cry
Concern:, about the eree
:�., to _ :you are read z dismiss d167
.. eMplOVt s. n our area e don't receive the kind of services that
we need al e , l' it in teal. i:. • '. he
t: to.know .U: .:7L` � .'.1 in t process
of dismiss,. g some. _'n well aware of the fact that I'.., not famil-
iar with ail of the i^._o:taticn that you are, T con.e3_ that but
most a.....arc a t e hope that _ do not d:ism..s the_: e people because
we need the sere .es. I've neern that you have: a Ver..'s supply of
money. tnrhaps in t.at time you can reorzanize your .irlo__ties in
ter..... of _ray .....e of your .the. commun_t._e.. some cf the sei ...e.ea
that they . b:i_ _c .11' too I'd 1Ikthe
you to :le],. t!'::3� we in
area arc: bc33; C 1t _ e...C.tor. . .T..;. is 5... but _..' i, :cue . ;re don't
want to do c.:i; . in th,tt _.I 't : se any problems hut
are quitr'_' conc rn2:. and chink that perhaps the commission ?hould
know this. Than!: 7o.i.
Mayor F err a : Thank you very- much, Yr
rime 1' 11 recognize Dr. Hendrickson.
Dr, :"Iencric sor.:
first?.
Mayor ._ e r r. e?
.tiould you like to have rather Gibson's Questions"
Bev. Gibsoa' wanted to know iI
you were P;''?'V J$lf You had at your
d4gpo al this inEormation so that 'ou could intelligently react to
it.
Dr, ler.drti akson , The one: l' Exhibit
,�C,, inf.a-ration that we had before was ;::h b t
c?r'd it is q,:i to a long one, We based a ; e of our calculations
the e information i x h i b i t " " h
on P L , that's S ''n8 16 page memorandum.
from `'r, HowardGary t:) Commissioner Plummer.
Mr
.t.ir. of so E:s;ibi t ".." which is your F::h.; ;
Er, enJr iC'.. ; r : . But the other information that *; 3s Oro-,ided
bytee ei t r a: a to us tni5 or :ld. So:.:e of .�" colleagues have
l:..3.;Cr.. . t'12r �ce rei Fte more time to n.a� a ', t, Il - wil 1
to, o_s C! '' 'r.a 'rs,s of t e situation, g'.ie some ccm..c: 5 at
least to help the situation today Thanks to Corunissianer Pluimer
you made some of the points that we would have made in terms of
What our request was. It was for our backup calculations not for
our working papers. That was the request, I ha-:e it in..,
Mayor Ferre: Doctor, I'm sorry, I'm having trouble hearing you,
Would you speak into the microphone.
Dr. Hendrickson: The request 'gas for backup calculations not for
our working papers. This came from Mr. Gunderson. We thank Com-
missioner Plummer for reinforcing that, making that so clear. The
reason that it took us two days.... and also we had a tremendous
accumulation from being involved in these hearings for the previous
five days of work and teaching and this sort of thing to get this
together. Some of me colleagues will take some of the points, I
will pick up or. others. :Maybe _ should jump to the document that
was presented by 4r. Gunderson relating to the new expenditures,
that is the balance, the end of the period. I believe that issched-
ule, it is shown ati schedule "C". It's a part, schedule "C" as In
Charlie, a part of Exhibit "G" as in George t second
i. the :_ page.
Schedule "C" in Exhibit "0" is ;age 2 of Exhibit "G" It is headed
Non -Payroll Expenditures. I would line to as'•: a duple of things
first. 1 think Mr. Gunderson used the words that this list was
certified to by the four Cr five people whose names are at the bot-
tom. I'd like .o know what the role of those people was in prepar-
ing this and whether, in fact, these are cerUi icaticns because in
accounting when you certify to something you do it as an indeeenden t
party and if you're working for the firm you can't really
certify
it because you're certif`.'ing to your own work. So could we have a
clarificaticl: en that? And also what their role was in the prepar-
ation of this document.
Mayor Ferro: :_r Gunderson, I guess :e havetoanswer as a second
. ..r �, JJ
part here because obviously they can't be functjonina as CPA's and
Certified Public Acceenta:.ts because they're not Certified Public
Accountants certifying the cit•. 's budget. I think the only reason
they put CPA there is to show that they have qualifications of an
educational nature. Now the second part is the part I think you
have to answer.
Mr. Gu ndersc n: Yes, and indicated on Exhibit "G" Schedule "C" is
reproduced as reviewed and approved by four CPA's.
Manor Ferre: Yes, but answer the question_. I think the question
was did they actually go through the process. Is that right, -Dr.
Hendrickson? Of going through the items?
Mr. Gunderson: ::o, _don't know that... whether they went through
every item...
Mayor Ferre: In other words does Mr. Carlos Garcia, Gary Houck,
George Jackson and Ken Neagle, did they go through documents that
are being presented?
Mr. .Gunderson:
Mrs. Gorden:
examine it to
They went ,
through this document yes.
J
1 d
t m
come to
supporting material, Mr. Gunderson, did they
the conclusions that are on this paper?
Mr. g'undar aor.: that's what they were asked to do. Oe? They were
asked to review and approve this schedule in relationship to the
document Now they did that independently and not under my super
visiondirectly, I asked that of them collectively.
Mrs. Gordon: ;re they here?
Mr, Gunderson; Yes, tney're mete,
rs Gordon: M e, we have them 1,pare
C4de SQn; Sure,
;4ii e Plummer: The Document which is be.:;.ncr trest=hted as Exhibit "r'' - ,ii
to committee tte e there was Exhibit,a . n .:, r
before� ...: n. .l. '::new '/i grey a' e com-
ing' from, there was Exhibit "UH-1" , Exhibit "CH-2" and Exhibit "U1-HL"3"
were in which there r_ rie.- great discrepancies.
Mayor '=erre Well, as 1 understand what Mr. Gunderson is sa.•ing
r
Dr. Hendrickscn, is that with recar' s to Schadule "C", Non -Payroll
eXpenditures and the bottom line cf total Non -Payroll l Expenditures
of $18,438,013 and the Exhibit which t ?lS about 6-7/ forecast
General Fund that these individual:, ere ^�..Ltt'_ t.- this
.. n., -heir : ,,a-�e�• :�
document which I guess is not s a• _n"' that the,: certifying _ t
because obviously they can't do +:..'rt but.. 3 t.1r__y' .,-e sayingis
that thou i re uttincythei:. li : c at_:n :s on the line saying that
these are accurate figures.
Mr. Plummer: Mr. Mayor. t.._ ciscre7.a'1c1 -mimes, if I can for your
edificaticn an.. other members of the commission, ur-1 was a doCu- •
• ient'.. which was oreta'_'ed in tes •.1;;1'�iL .o`i �•;'". r:;underson b,: can YCCCUiltS
Pecei v ablo Clerk fortho i r" i solelv o5 work paters.
=.TES+r1r Fer'':? : Which is t7't-1: I''i leo{i.i.. at E..hi t "G"
Mt. Plummer: You don't have it, I' :'e co:•it h<,re. 0:" ,?
Mrs. Gordon: ' Gl1 .then don't talk in letters, :Maai. are Jou
about?
Mr. Plummer: Ali right, Where•the ciiscre' a'i:':yis Con inc .s•,h, l:t.ie n
three. documents. . Four?. Throe:i^ 1., T have. oh this ...5 foil:, Oh
yes T L a C.isoi`a_ : ncv CCi?':O3 here: The panel was produced with three
different oC......ent: s . It iti a:, is fer•r::: that 11 � of these documents
were ir==�_Lr•c.ci four C.'' ---' f `
_ :i' S 'S '.G. 'a'-Or� panel ti.:r'Qllt:�.ii.
ought that t is-1, the first . .. ow..a'. nt wasu'.^,ra b an lc-u ._.
4t.1 f I rum nt :,-2 r:undersonwas dene
c'_ never s-• n him. UH-3 whi.ch t:.iffe 'fi f' ,m UH-1 and 2 is t :e
one that ut_
i- .:: his name •_:1 ,.".1 Gc:rti .c„ :':.ivi unfortunately
that is :h.. one that they se:: h-__ a nal_'s! .on and rH-4, if you.
Pay, is `.`±-s. Cf. 1J(i• which (7.-._ _CM 3. Now
confd
Mrs Cordon: NO yc7a' i:; con:'r-e'a What 1 thought :1
Dr. He:•icrickse_.: we can: wait for the -.estiironti of the four
t
.,-�.,1 J_ _'v.. _ what e' _sun• on this fourth document which
is you- _ ti tl ^" a, - ..t the '-A. _h
coming L'_7 with the estimate :7_ a $2,0N),0c2;0 budget carry G�'i::' and
it's the last point, General . •.....G C rati;,n '•;a rs...'r .".....+ '-.. min-
imum_ r _ 1
ini:u^1 __._re _ihn.._'_d ore million :':C.:e i._ •t;i._ carry o'z ,- balance
L`./ is projecte .. `jFr',.in a`_ ':':' that, and it is shown in our
work ��.:.. :it _ .. .1 startedwith the 1 '' 4')�00 t� ..,, • eci. is - J r � .�, � _ , � that was _ ,� � -•.. L-cd 1
UH-3 �..:'_at ...... Y:`.'.-.. to.. .. was ': re ari.G • v it �, same ._our yCia.'., that are
now certifying or w ate to F._.hi.b' t "0". Now en that document
therms were ' , ::0 _ eneumbarnoes haf .; V found that .ore already
included, and u' I ste the -i ay
- n:b r ..cur fre: . e t-,o::a her
': $r0,31 3 1. _o —othatt'_.`' .r" i_ t:.o e_i ,ra✓ _..a~ "t_r-r.
wa.7 act•..a h :ad that ha,,, ,_.:c u ed frcmt this
list so it seems as this t::!?•-• h :?2,' ...:1istrc.._CIl is a• cett'_.':C that 63
r::SJ ay- _.. a" �%- been .. 1�.'-�-�1.. �LI �,Tri also •. l '�,.:.1. from . list is :1. item
for for2 Gr , C 0 wh_..h was » _hi ..: titled Cn our C':.-7; +-c Soeci 1 3_
End Encu: __-- es artm:..-s f. 200!^-
1 e also -._ _:...._ calculations and _t locked: as crr�'•�^. pract4 ca_ l"
a'-�. if not ail of that was the $ :.0 , 540, 000 so .a:�-_^_ _t seems r..a..
'i..S acc.ii7 ad. ..C'. v f � - J ^_ t'.'e .: c- tch==d rrnr:. th,z.
that =.thatct- :'.��:: cse the four C?.\'s
.rem called .. .^'T1.... c.-i -ions— . _._ _sus Accounts YearEnd, , 97,130. Now
:r
the total of that i• thin is s il,e hi. ^ 4r, excess of ;00 300. Now
r - have $, _ _ b t�
what -.. added .�w• 1.. a minor ..w l:V �a.L r �•,..1 let's •l.' :i � V � worry about
..a.•e - _dcc, and _ ,, ,-_- far down, for .-oli e
De r tm '''t a r;, Sets $2! ! 1
- r3 - r
-1a7o7Dr .F.er-7e ♦ I don't 4:10: where
.f. X2 tt
-1 es a f in. -`I•
i
MEM
MEM
MEM
•
Df, Hendrickson: this is frbt schedule "C", i:ifte r:
tiOtepayroll Expenditures,
Mt, Plummer: This page here, Maurice, it's iri Ek ibit "G'".
1
Mayor Ferret Well you see you keep saying "C" and I look at
And I can't find it,
Mr. Plummer: It's in Exhibit "G" , Schedule "C" ,
Mayor Ferret Ok.
Dr. Hendrickson: It's fairly far back in these packet.
M Plummer: T never I wouldG
,it , Plu„L--i__ . _ thought 1 _erne in the :apacit'e obi :this
commission as a translator.
Dr. Hendrickson: Line 7 is a new item, Police Department Fixed
Assets 21,371. This is something that has developed since last
week to the figures that were then said to be all of the liabilities
at the end of the year. Another thing that has been increased >ir.
Gunderscn said is the third party claims and damages $1, 112 , 500 here,
the figure We were given last wee{ was $700,000 and we question that
in our upper f`' ur e.. This did nct affect our le'wer figure. It does
not enter intoour one million that we show in our report, the fourth
item there, the one million additional carry over. It is not in
there it is in the other, the upper figura. So T_ dnn' t know that we
need to de``-nd that here because it is the lower ficure that is the
most important because we're trying to arrive at the three million.
But what comes on the next two lines down - Open Purchase Orders as
of 1C-3--77. Ts:'r. Gunderson here? 'ir. Gunderson, when did your
fiscal cericd 77 end? All right, this is October 3. it seeps to
:;le that these are 1978 expenditures.
Mayor Terre: Are they, yes or no on the record?
Mr. Gunderson: ,'
Mayor Ferret They're not.
Dr. Hendrickson: Why not?
INAUDIBLE
Dr. Hendrickson: There is a thing in accounting about cbsery i.
the cut-off and as of 9-30 which seemed to be the appropriate d.3y,
now T_ think that the City departments are required to 5::i:..:.:.t
purchase
orders fairly early _n the month, in the last month, to clear for
that fiscal year. And here we have now in the new fiscal year
$559,000, a ficure that I have no tie-in for, 72 open purchase
orders at this point in time and 1 really cuesticn that. So what
has happened as a result of adding this $412 , 500 , the $21 , : 7 1 and
the new figure there of $465 ,000 which offsets ...le figures... i_ to
increase the ro fec Led nc^.-cam r�'_i e: penci Lures by some hu:'.c._ _c
and eleven or twelve thousand dollars and that is why the fund bal-
ance that they project now has gone down from 1,242,000 shown on
page 1 of Exhibit 3 in cur exhibit to 1,223,430 that is shown in
your exhibit "G" , page 1. You'll see that on page one of Exhibit .
"G" - 1,223,400. So Led 3_t :Q_C. weQr"an t� hhad a very limited amount
_
of time to ...nalyee 4-he d eta .:e had to base our decision cn the
data tnat was erovided to us. We thought we were cett_ng good data.
This seems to indicate to us that we were not given good data and
so our estimate obvicusly might or may not be wrong, I don't knot
but we've been proven correct it teems in the questions that we
raised. We graciously provided the City with our calcul.._ions
which.� r i-i i r' connection ti w a itr cr e 1_ ..
I Lr.�e_s..Gnd .. .,r.ntc cn with orb �._ati�.. cases isn't r.�c-
essarily to be provided between the report and the hearing. I
think that that one million figure that we projected stands and =.t
may well be great r than that, e e•`�' ss e teed ou''gee :;^�... r--cv r
butam.: it ~.� ,-1 �- changed
^ _..�' "t ~ � ` 3Gt.l3:c
could be �v various management discretionary.• ,
one of the+toint.7.,7 that we do ma;;e in cur initial report. Ir. tert5
OCT 0 71S77
Ci th Enterprise Fund One of "l', 601.1eacued willi._e . some t 'e Onthat.
l:s c h Gcti n with the $alai;. lapse out P:oje ti .. .f the one Million twc' Was
bated largely on the analysis ± ttVid d
� b_ . tatty and ti -a bated th a:pi'y
tent, actual pity amplc_-sht .,_ about Eeptet.her 10 ^r a': at that 'Ime her Were 2.914 employees etc:tr:._. :v the, and that : aS ntt be,,n ,lisputed, The fig-
ures that the city :at elope:: for a hi4her :_ 1re for the budget and therefore
a lower carry-over : alan t or _:ri :ranter =?:_ ._......t:.. _s is bated an a period of
emolo,^."::e... ..,has goes bat:{ into the early part of the year when ':?i'C still have
the sanitation employees, 12- or more etployees were _.__.. off then emtloyMent
at that time ........ cr.... in the .:ei _...J........., and we ..I:.' c. ..:.o I: , _. .i - . tauCrt _-
the total number of teorie e ve'_ sd L:'__ _ng the year .... it probably w in ne.5h-
borho.C. _- employees create: than w .: i a ti.-. e:t'_'mh_c._ _1t... 5n a.3ain we're
saying there is money in the budoet to support the employees that fr.;.i have at
.
the endJf fiscal 1977, you had at Jo: t_^hP:r i. 7 .-3.'... t.^.eY? will ..: some addit-
ional salary - ' . to.:, In the new bud.,:etiemember _ :'t havebudget
... estim i the new l _vc l .. r..� _ t;.%._.. _ is to he : , ?2•.•l. and I think it's employees
from the General _ .... .a=:'.r=._ on... ::a'_. -`a.:. ou had ,914, t ..a. 'i•15 s..._
than was bud,3eted.:i if you add that 15 __ the _ .':a.. are proposod for i:. -
off there ar_ at .. - .. - . slti ons in tho ....w
a^:;__• there may have been some .t;_...___.. Itat.n n ..:__t._mb.,,: ---a. _.^.0 ti-ptc.-.1':=r
12t ' , theze may ....7L :i^:'.. ....'%e hires dYring that _ime.. There are v .r _il ways
cf fihanoin7 hires as .:e have pointed out in the rr rt: one at :east _.. ,.:J use
CY-A them. __ would so..... as we oug:;cF,t as we s'.'::CC:tedcur
reptrt that it.cu3l .e far _'.C..ss destallizing to ..he 3_:er_ll ,........._d peole i..
vo.l ... to !a_...... _'han ..... lay peenda off end ..ire hem back de -. L~-.: •.s... use cE.ts funds cr the new that _ really : n:3 to continue 7 s=:r"vi es .
And Y: h.. . E you're S..'.. ..... t....... there .. j-going.... t : .: t ... _ . _ i • .. i . _
fiscal. 197E. These or ..0 1 don't thin . there was a::' :.ntenti3n
t0 hire tho peoplein here on O:._. er 1. If you '.r::....... use 3 half if ar .. ir'r: e
Conceivably ?;ere over e i:.._.._.... _ A little .__:, It is a Ter, ._L:i_.:?t thinc `.J
do, we're _ ...l._. _ with pr,yections cver ..y_ h, .''opal ::..-',J we can't s,.)ntrtl when
Cam and .._ __aa':.t: and the ..a,:'s C+'.,.-ant :a'. ton:r _ the hiring to a -
certain .........t.. We a-.._ ..a'... no ......_ 1. over attrition, _ C __..,:, thoy have ':a
cent:..._ over Chat t.o: hut zh,fre will be ..t. .._..._.. irc... retirement,: and other .::nips
of resignation. n. thin% with that a turn :.his :;'..... `roul.. ytu 1i.;e to
. Tg7 •
'. irst -... _......._. _y.... with the -sevorance estimate?
Mayor Ferro: Dr. Hendrickson, entuse ne. .'i:":J that oU've O.±nithed, .'i.3.•
has rocues -.. the presehoe.
M.'s. Gordon: '..':.t_'.t t., as!,. sit.
art' :4''.: a '. ha are c:....i. into ....»
M ^ _'r Far_... :., and.therefor',sinco I thi k
desks a:.... :..'i_ obs :.._'r, see if .•••
Mr. . .:1d.-'..`........hort.lute :het.
Mayor - rt re : Yes, would yci. ,
,µ. :..•der"son: I'd like t:. 'introduce t'O. V.Oi'.'. -tv
liv'w=f:, Mr. ......r ..._, .:r. . Jackson .v Mi ' e C' ��.•
Ma or _ .r :
♦ 1 ^,
Mrs. Gordon:: ter. .'.t'".lili? :, T '.tic:: d u-:; if tic:: r:'.11C 1:cse the C e." —C'n :'hi h
are pertinent ..:,:. your information",i:curs regarding he work involvement o
the$e faux. ..
CC.%s, :�r, ' irt':.:: : .mot- .'fl:._ ha '''Gw
your rtle in preparation of t.%' s sc he"'' i e "C"?
MY. Gar,cJ .;ato:a; We compiled thisN:.
Cityfrom various .a tiC.r f:i' ._...
Mr, Garo4,a:
rlri 3444g :r2::C `J,a the 4:3 g4;74?
74r ci3;•
"C
igues tee=
f
OCT 0
Ens Hendrickson: 3asically, which ones did you net ccm.ile?
Mk, Garcia: Ok, for instance the amounts that wer encumbered by various depart=
rents such as Sanitation, City Hall RenoVations, Law Cepartinent, Management Sere
Vides, Police Department and Third Party Claims and Damages, those are the ones
that we obtained from cutside sour:es.
Dr. Hendrickson: What would your c:{_ lanatie n be, now we were told that you prey
Pared that exhibit that CC^pare5 with this, rather unfavorably unfortunately that
we used in our hearings. 'iQu appeared before us...
Mr. Garcie : Right.
Dr. Hendrickson: And we were told that that was prepared bV ycia:d €he three ?ee
other gentlemen with you.
Mr. Oarcia: T;.at's right,
tip, Hetidri:: kscr.: ::Ow why has there been such a shift in the last week?
Mt, Garcia: Well, as isaid mainly because of cut:ide i±•ifertnation that
received since the time we had the oositicr.s.
Dr. Hendrickson: '"here or. the cutside did this information cane frost?
:^.r Garcia: Well, the largest chance came from the Claim,_ and Damages and that
was information: that was received free: the law Cetart'1ent.
Dr. Hendrickson. Attorney tine:. was 3i_ting in our hearings and he didn't dispute
the S730,C00 that was advanced before w-ieh we have questioned because a: the end
of 1976 the cityCa"`^ ' over sctr,e j305,C00 fcr this purpose, 35C,^OC is a 1O%
increase over that and thaz was cur defense of that figure and new you're saying
that it should be more than three times as grew..
Mr. Garcia: What we're saying is t:.at we ee-e' vad a memo =rcn heLaw Department, indicating that the 9.:,, :nz cf claims we have outstanding is over a million dollars.
Dr. Hendricks.•..: What about the pence ve^e_t.- e n 'r fi:.ec s
-� 5 Cta:
Mt. Garcia: Ck, ae you recall we had a `ZOC,'DCO reserve when you first locked
at the erigina1 schedule and _fiat's cne cf the item:the: was pending
_ncumberances
from ..he Police Department rent ad the :ire D tiar`zae: _ nd other various de_ artne.^.ts .
Dr. Hendric keon : used on eur prior analysis :hat may well be a =art of the double
acccunting that we fcund before. All ric :, what t about :he open purchase orders, ,
what's vcur ex. lanaticn of ,.nose.' Why are they still ope : on October 3rd when
your fiscal teried ended en. Sel:.teA'.L.ee _, _h?
Mr. Garcia: .k, _here is a tine lag between the time services and gocds are used
and the time we receive the billing f cm the various vendors. It usually takes
.wont 15 days to catch up with all cf the vendors' invoices.
Dr. Hendrickson: Don't you encumber these funds before you actually record the
purchase?
Les, they are en.eu.^:bered.
Dr. Hendrickson: Well we had from You it aro=;.er part of the exhibits encumber -
antes three: _h Se=tember 1977 that we took into account and 1 thiri that added
up to a total e.^.cumb. ra::cee cf scmethino like 7C'C, COO that had been added inSect-
ember plus these that were still cpen en August 31. So it was our feeling that
that a.'^.C'une waa well co'vvere_. in the 10,540,000 and _you're sayieg _.:2t it was not.
Now what is the 14st day that the departments are permitted to submit - _ ehas
e
orders and have .:e funds encumbered e'er fiscal ;??
:fr, Garcia: . ___.:as_ orders were- submitted through the 15=h cf September, n The
4mount of e nc:. L =rances will not increase they will only decrea
se depending ^g on
the n'.urtt_r of _..voices received her the :losing of the year.
these purchase er came in at the 1 H
Dr.
:?rtlariC.;SCn; Well, iforders ,_ last o- the '.t1:,n''. ,
S p:ember l5th we e .'t they :recessed by September ..9, this i3 two weeks later?
?
!ere Garcia: stably_ !i not, `_ i0 C"i hi hes:. amount., Ck, we have a f gurs to ray' _ one, ' e $559,:^'Oil Tt was 1-%e '+tips of the
of
ent'.1Mberantes for the end of the Veal:. Sin._ hat point they started bein4 re
&lea l And they would: be red: oed F.ar the next two wAe " .J
Dr. Hendrickson: 'rle'r: talking nc„N ::t about itrm that ieia already begin eieli M-
tiered but new .
.J tr:.:";is:.i7!?Yai^c:::'�^•. i really �ile5t?o:: 'rJl:et`.a^.er these c3r� caClClit..Q:lai 1A/7
iteMs that should be ncumber_d.
Mr. Garcia: This is the balance of e•ncu.:.berantes that we 7s=acat thatcart 1rul3Y
date,
Dr. ii driesso:l: Sut t:hs : r. urcase' 'orders t;:.:t hia Pn't
it Mean, what does it meanbythe open purchase ard•er?
been enettberedJ what abet
Mt, Garcia: 'That's the mount of purchase orders that ha'FQ' beet•tihcu.'i ered and
any remaining balance is not tieing ng used.
tit, Hendr_ ......:.1:: Well then It seems to me it's already ire :he flg'Iret that You
have deleted .4r:;%i,riCY S:. ...t that :C_ prv1doG%C.5 3^7SCagain I think
We have evidence o: dt'.:hle aecel.^.`ing
..r. Car:.r:.i. ..-.:7r. ._ l,j to ytur crinion,
yes,
's, iot ecco^dir. j e='r. The
City's t..ice:as been to 4,,,tL=.i;Z.IFO cr-arc c.er_ until they ar "ur1r and Ca
rrf
hem forward to th.1 roiltfa.r
^ Hend ri ,. _ t havea t, t _ t t`h.
Dr. � .,.a0i.: �_t •_'�' r a :'?""=iit:a:a.:.or;, 4:�`lclt to the C}i��.i'ro�"iCn �r..yie
an open purchase order and an athtumbera nc;_7
.`•3r. arc_a: There is none.
Cr. iten ric..s....: '-1 right, well.we had..as
dc:d.'Cl^_ ..ccoun_r: r — -{t u St,,,. thi.
that we V l :.. for in the . ' n-n0,
Mr, ;Garcia: :_.L rephrase.-:
Plummer: Z :cu; .;e= , let.
J`380
C4: .
Dr. ,.E:n.:ri-kse..: S
31tor
Of wh.4:oh we i7-..i:cd: tG ti:.e'
•
_y;10Ye, J ,V•;,'1(1 or Mere 'in encCu beranCes
t
-ii + ".a-: ' have some "..."- diticnai nT:tr atio. frtm Yr. garc:a3.
72.i4ht, yes,.
Cr. Ht.hdrioks .: Whith shows t'3': on .•.0 ust 31 there were home 523,OCYO in c cum7
berance'. - Now you wrote scol additional cn`:`s'. in -September and we have added these,
we have taken care df adding to hat was :e .... `_.,a1 at :.ugun 31 n I think
iz wire _a:::::! e of that soha.:'re Saying _. _ on top
of the is
that yol., C: .....for. .:li:. . sin; :a ..i:f r.'. nt title for them.
Mr. are the ..:.n title, they are the sent item • ..a of Oartember
3Lth noc all the _ ur:.`.ase 0:...tro '.ti.r - rcct.:.cad
4- p 3_e^t.y and that 13 whye
number C.» tur` ai.e order..;s increased d even since.
L'r. .:_.._ri;k_on: ... balance ef Be.^.....:^....-rances that haven'..•be. paid.
:•;r. Garcia: Fit.
.ter. C.^..�.ri .....-... . t': been ru%nin7 that .-'.t .^.:Cast any alcng the way
higher. we have ..hi.t 1 think b: ... - into 'var f igju= sc : submit t:^ you
and •;'°e tl-,:man that this s _t a .. o .anc ter avid.b^c ,nce of .ible cu:!•C::._:; J.Ii : ".: :-
thin%« that. cur budget ...-....ate, a tarry ever c f two :: l..i ii .....'i_-'r than one million
is very c._0.3i_ ..o a::.itrect. Thank vo., Mr. Garcia. Let me tali: n-=.: c t:a Mr. ^'
';au :., 'ring.« Wu. your ro a in the precaration of Schedule "227
Mr. ;.-a'". outR. '.i..s_ did was : ,.,ore:.. with Cra:v_ on determining
work _ T 'ji =•n C:/+ their ��....<n i. .w G:.� and - :1:: .�.. ... �.J r i as ..J +r r ra i-1` .r.rr'^ r. .._ a and .:w v,lr a>.y
Dr Which nlAmbets7
Y
_'t.... .. w7 a. C: ..`., «<: si,;.>7-t1 all O_them, 01:9 g1 t•a mar-+ n t r_ _ tey me ...
r p,' .:.5.�... .r.. _:� -'. r•' :"'' "I '"^ Y+.. t:.O: item ,..hedul
r rf ,i-1 -�
Dr. gehdt cksbn: Again we have this figure but basically it doesn`t tell us pre=
cisely .rich figures. What was your role, for eXar'1e, on cure-ase orders?
Mr. Houck: Ok, on the purchase orders there is a listing that was produced as cf
October 3rd which shows all thouse encu'Ilberanc_s which were pending or. Septetber
3Oth. That listing ties into this number. Then there was a ^ro ecticn made, the
negative number of how many cf those purchase orders would be converted to pay=
ables Curing the next two weeks based on receiving reports arc invoices
ces recei:red
in the Accounting Department verifying that the actual goods service' whatever
, services, l';3 �e7e
were received prior to Se_ testier 33th.
bre Hendrickson.: 1 don't think that really is relevant because we have provided
for these ercu'.riberar.c_s. Everyone here is familiar with the process first to
encumber and then you extend. You have both the budget figures and the actual
figures from the bud_:et so if we provided for the entumberances in addition to
the actual expenditures which also included, , incidentally some d,^.ubie cocounting
because in arriving at that 10, _4n, 3CC was _.'.e _.mount of ex_pendit:.rea in fiscal
1977 fr::1 items that were e re39^ e ' the1
r ncu.,. e in i :. don't know precise amount
ut it is something in excess of '.wc or three hundred thc'lsanr . The _a:t _ ure
that you have here, the 779,00 is a combination cf figures that we had on our
cid exhibit, some that were included in :he FAMIS and scud that Her: nct because
the:: were not wnc1uC ed in the _:I'lrutor system. 1 think that those that were in-
Cluded were something _lose to 3O0,000 so that there was double counting in the
figure that was used to roll forward to arrive at the 10,540,000 already. How
do you...
Mr. Hcuck: Let :me ask you a ouesticn. How do you say that there is doubly count-
ing in t e$1O, 540, COO?
Dr. Hendrickson: Well, there is double counting because in that ten pillion
it was arrived at by your actual expenditures through August 31
Mr. Houck: ,0k.
Dr. Hendrickson: And includede in those e::cenditures
cumbered in fiscal 76.
Mr. Houck: Ot .
Dr. Hen dri :kson: Their ogler 31 figure was relied forward by multiplying it 3'y
12 for the 1: months in the year, by L.months that you had up through August 31
and that, therefore, should take car_ of a1_ of it and we did some checks that
indicate that, in fact, it did take care of everything that we had been shown
though Septamhet 3 th.
Mr. Houck: . e Vu saying then that the ,Chic, 000 f.i^__ also inc1'udes the
465,000 that shown as purchase orders outstanding at Se zer".b r 30th?
Dr. Hendrickson: 7n a=Fact _t is provided for. Yes. We checked it
in other Nays bv adding up the actual s.
Mr. Houck: T disagree with that statement.
Dr. Hendric:scr:
September 30th?
What was the amount of encu:nberarce as written
Mr. Houck: The amount, the actual amount?
Dr. Hendrickson: The actual amount of encurnberar.ces written oil
September 3ot`..
Mr. Houck: 1 don't understand .lour cuesti o . Act' a1 1'.. written,
you :'lean apprcved bv outPurchasing Decartirent atthe closing of
books on that date?
"sr.
r . Hendrickson: ...point they got into
ntc the tally here that was pres-
ented
to us by .r . Garcia. He has a.ficure :.ere through Seute tier
29t7 Now one day later, if this is a good figure, you're saying
and 't actually would have tow e; gnbor .... be _-: the neighborhood of ,.00,00O tore
encumberancew on one daay
written .t r
Mr, Houck: ;'Cell, ` ha; s the 7zigt47e that w ,5 he 'e ''pe'_ore?,
2's �
OCT O'71977
BIM
br kehdrickSon: Well, the total aocumulat'on through September 29
Was 2,249,290 and then the total as of 9131 was two million fifty.,
,
eight and it indicates that 191,000 encumberances were written be,'
tweet' September 1 and September 29. You're saying now that 530,000
, . .
were written on Septet:osr 30th. ... !.!..t. Garf"i..
:A-. Garcia: The variance is mainly due to increasing the liability
reserve, 1:hat's the main increase. The amount that we show for pur.'
chase order..., on that schedule, sn th,, firs- shu1 that as
pared was -yary close to tve. amount that we Qhci,:- now, the 465,000.
1 thin% it was like 432,000.
Dr. .77-3uz we call that c.1,-)uble counting is
because rathe-: than .--4tartina .;..th vour 331 figure you started with
that, you rolled ic ahead ard then you ad-d this in on top of it sc
we think tit 4-h.zr,,, is double-ount'ng.
Mr. Garcia: well, tn f1 ti no double counting there,
sir. What wo r11ed 'crward were the act'il ex-or=r,fitire:
D. Hendricson: we-e encumnno::-4 in the-e too ce ause the*:
came
a: ic, sii. o, sir.
Hendl-ic-kzont You had .exenitures froM 76 -in that ei,cht million
figure that was rolled f..,-rward n't,•yoU?--...8etause-yu're-bac'kinc.
them out here in the last figure. he 77:94 c.F ,,ft-
cumberances 'rom thr, prier • •
• Mrs, Go -don: Do you cr
Dr. Hend-i : ' t that true?
don't have schedule in
to be tru, yes, sir.
• C:0'''CIC'n 7 t 4 .
ont of. z
Dr. lisnd-,-;c....:son: thore, is double coun4-in5
Mr. Plummer: Wait a minute now, :-,cre is what I h=-.-1 t Co sometim,r.
in the hearing::: an answer of "lz sms. tr) be true" .3 not accept-
able to r.e. Either it is 7:rue or it is not. I th:nl: a sole Lust -
ion, :Ar. Garci,l, has bee.-. of You. Tf you n-.edttdoc..1mrntat-
ion to an:3wer y7.,s sr no I wou1-.1 ycu gett::.n.-7 that document.
Mr. (7.....rcia: I would to that uc and then I'll be able....
Mu-- I it is r this oemm'ss'on's edificat.lon
that we can't aco.,-,lot "It sem= to be" or "It could ha", we need
know yes Of no. -
Mr. (7.e.'"Ci=': 7 wr-suld like •,---, -,r-w4=-WH-Ilose.c,ocurlents.... first:. nd.---thn'W,--.--
I'll be abe t,--, t--0 I you. :: .. ......• • :-. .. ........:, , • - . ...... .••••'''''-:::::::2:A-•-•••'-- •
Nrs. Gordon: 2irst I'd ..",u.-,t•l2...:.;.e tc 7',..,,,::;e Ere that a.;'ty•ter:th:.±....-:-.•::::--..
-• •-.:•7-......-----.•:-.-,...,....•
that's offered b,.! thiq ..-::.eoCIe•wOul• not •jeoi.te '.:12:2e thel* jObs-i,71,..H.anV:::.-.•
waywhatso,-71,-.7-. • - • . • • . - • . • • : • • . . • - • • - - - . i• • : . • . :-.,. .-:..--.,.: - . ::.:.. •
. ._
F.cv. 'son: a:ccut all tne jobs because we want
7.;St." / writ tO just af'd
wart=eo ,0 that clear 1.)causc%
testizcr.Y.
T:-..i.,, Gi..-...so:.,; 7?,----,s, I unr'-,----:7-na ar..-' 7 hst:=.. e at' tr" b -0,,',t all th;"a
- . .
-;.-.)bs tecaus.a w:4 7.4t1. comni^n are sitt-..ng in judgement ana we want
T-at' c wrly 7 ma...ie the moc:"on to b-ing in an imPa;.-t4n1
ouT:fir heoause 7 wanted to be i-e1at.ive1*.7 sure a.r.d or,r-e-ac7.,
c.-'n't.- ct:...:,.--,% 4.--,,--, r--.0d,, 7,-,r,4- T...70.)--, 7 ho.,-.
sinqiet ',-.;erse.-, ..7n0 !",.:7,s to giw -:lence here or
• n 1 14
It7.1•
Way Will fail to tell us the truth because you think you're going to
lose your job because Theodore Gibson is prepared to get the truth.
I hope everybody understands what I Mean by that and if I have to put
every tan under oath and if I find you lying to me I'r► prepared to
ask the commission to instruct the Manager and anybody else to do the
other thing. Now we want the truth here.
Mr. Garcia: Goina back to that cuesticn, now I recollect exactly what
the schedule shows. Ck , when we show a reduction Of $750 , 000 of en-
cumberances approximately $700,000 for items encumbered last year :gnat
we're saying is that we're not indicating that those encumberances are
included in the previous expenditures, what we're saying is that we
show those encu:iberences open in the books, therefore, we need to
close them out and what we're doing, we can either take those encumber-
anCes into revenue or reduce this year' expenditure by that amount
but that doesn't man that the items are shown on the upper line as
beina spent or as being expenditures.
Dr. i:endrickscn : But .:hat is the next -:-et after a fund is encu^tnere :.
Isn't the next step iri many cases an expenditure?
t i thev erg_, neverspent.
:fii. . Garcia: in many cases yes but these items, , were
They never went through the e::tenditure account. So my answer to your
auesticn is no, there is no double counting for that particular item.
Dr. Hendrickson: But there still is double counting because what .e
did, we began with with your E-•31 expenditures, we added to that your
encumberances cf tat point in time, we added to what we thought were
the encumberances up throuch 9-29-77 and we still had left something
in the neighborhood of 160 or 170,000 to cover 9-30 encumberances and,
therefore, we think that all cf this is double counting that's why we
put it cn there. We verified it in another way and it seems....
Mr. Garcia: Well, sir, T- cannot really answer how you worked that out
but I am just giving ycu the answer cf what we prepared.
Dr. Hendrickson: One more cuestion, Mr. Garcia. . .. We can't ask
you to attest that, it wouldn't be fair. But do ycu swear to the
best of your knowledge that every item in there is correct?
:•ir. Garcia: If we rely on the documents that we received yes, we
say that.
Dr. Hendrickson: That's fudging, you're fudging.
Mayor F erre : What?
Mr. Plummer: Mr. MaYor, you and I use other words than fudging.
Dr. Hendrickson: We had to base our report cn information that we
were given that we now have found to be incorrect and to have been
changed in the last week and now we have a new bit of information ar.d
we're really concerned. My creditability is at stake here too and I've
worked a long time to try to build it uo.
Mr. Garcia. hat I'm saying is that I could not really go back and
certify these items unless we did certain procedures cr. the documents
that we had r_cei•'ed.
can
Dr Hendrickson: Did _ cu do those procedures?
M. Garcia: No, sir, it was impossible to do is in some cases.
Well the it seems 't usethewords because
e
Hendrickson: � /_�,'l _n� order
sea you can't n doneY�� s ec „s
t eyive been ,•r. 1...IC:.~ out of order that (ycu ma'• not hare done 1 the
steps that it is alleged that we didn't do. Is that fair enough?
M
Mrs. Gorden: Very fair.
Mr. pl''^•rer: Well let me ask a at,esti on in this line Father. Mr.
Cargia, you are we-1 aware, e, sir, that as T refer to Exhibit [ H which
tr c er„ IL.o..e Ye f .....s there were our QQCLPGn,S, the _OurL1
;ne bei :y tn; s wh'ich was presented this morning which is dated 10-3.
6
1 think reallv what doctor is saying or trying to derive an Answer
froth iS why in the k-.:Cried of 7 to 10 days is there such a disCrepandy
between the four documents and what he further is saying, that he
Could Only base his analysis on ths latest document which you pre
pared for him and now subsouent to that another document has come
Out showing another figure. Do you understand?
Mr, Garci.a: 'es, sir.
Mr. Plummer: that's where 1 think he is trying to base the truth,
(1) Why is tharc such a discrepancy between Exhibit CH-1, 2, 3 and 4
and why or how do you feel that it is fair that he can make an analysis
if he dosn't have information which, in fat, wa,-; furnished by you or
Your department - excuse me, not you individually?
Mr. Garcia: Well, as 1 said befortha main diff,:-no--- comes fr-m the
liability resee%,-e,
Dr. Hendri:,:k.son: What is the liability reserve, -1-.)lease?
Mr. Garcia: T.t. is
S700 000 !,te71 that is now 1.1 million
Dr. Hendrickson: C bu4- we're still b'eck on the double counting which
is sufficient to....
Yealsre tel about '-he nurthas crs. T'm statin:.!
according to my knowledge ther-. is no deuble counting there. As I
said, the reduction that we s.how for ancumberances on the orginal
schedule is sl--"11 valid. Whet wo wore doing in that ca,--e weet closin,1
out encumhurencs for F.rfor year:.; ae:.a.nst this i!ears expenditunis.
Dr. Hondricksnn: I' %et ficurm ic v=lid,
I'm -tit-- is th,t tl,at fi:;ure sho.-.1d also hava- af.ded to
the 10,-340,07;:2. 7 (710:,': 't be a'.-d if it is it dcuble
countih(:; or a subotantial T>ortlon of it is double co-Intin.
Mr. Garcia: I'm sorry, but :'m not getting your :::Eui..,stion, sir.
Dr. Hendrickson: :,ecau.se the way you arrived at the 10,543,000 you
roiled ahead end vor::.fied this in othei- ways. Tn 0%.1r verification
we co.:era:a all of thci—.: e.noumbare--.cos o.nd thon scrs.a.
Mr. Garcia: I'll hs. to check the work papers and see the wav you
arrive:1 at:. those fue
Dr. Hendrickson: :t's c!i.-an a com.bination of what yuu us
some af.dLtion anc subtracticn. Did vc.. sign :his
dotum.rnt e,f your own fr:::e will, have a full chance co examine it be-
fore you sire.-. it?
M-e. Garoin: We r-iYamined the- documen4- bef-,re it was i-aad.%-, yes, sir.
m'e. Plummer: Let re ;...sk a ,c,:uestitn. Mr. Gercis,, 1 direct ':cur attent-
ion to thio ciccumert which was Exhibit UH -1 wh4ch 'amilia' with -
Mr. Oarcia: Yes, sir,
Plummtir: Tne third Lade of that deio"mn.n'..; =hows additic,nz..1 expenc,:t-
-
ues ror. 'reflected in Lhe reac". n'at of $2,535,000. Can you
tell me wheri! that appears s,uhedule C of Fxt "G"?
I thou-ht we hed sane -c.ded that schedule, hat
:as vched..,le was u'reca-e-: 1'V a d4:'-'4-ren' ueueetment, It wasn't preta.rea
bY
weren't privY to it?
r4r, plummer; Wait a minute, Rose, it '47-M a.,;',,5u'e'rt
a • , -
. ,
'Ti , 471 les, 1 Z., Z.': 4 - S r+
• - • "r , t "T. •
Mr, think we, thac.. was detrnline'f;
rr
0
taken last week that there were some errors in that schedule, Vet,
bre Hendrickson: What about the schedule that was prepared by the
four of you that supposedly we had to use to base our conclusions,
now you're saying that that was in error and by a substantial amount
because :chat you've added is something over 800,000 and taken nothing
over 700,000 on a $2,000,000 schedule. That is a tremendous turn-
around.
Mr. Garcia: Yes, sir. We're closing the books and not .mtil we final-
ize through that process will we be able to tell exactly what the final
end is acing to be. We're still getting information from throughout
the city.
Dr. Hendrickson: Thank you, Mr, Garcia. Do you have any further quest-
ions of him?
•
-
•
Mrs.
f�Gordon:No.Eachof the four gentlemen e. c here, each of you axe as
�, don : C„u �._.,.Ti..n
familiar a_ Mr. Garcia with this information and the back 'gin material;
that are in it? Mr. Nagle, what was your involvement t in this, you
signed it, what was your ci ement?
Mr. Ken Neagle: Yesterday morning Mr. Garcia called Me into his office
perhaps a little earlier than this and we scent perhaps five minutes
going over the figures. He showed me a number of memos from various
city departments and he indicated that it would be typed up later and
would be asked to sicn it.
Mrs. Gordon: And that was the extent, and you put your name tc this
on that basis?
Mr. `+eagle . Yes.
Mrs. Gordon: G k
Mr. Plummer: That doesn't satisfy me. In this five minutes cursory
examination were you able to satisfy in your mind that those figures
a.:, given to you were correct?
Mr. Neaaie: _ would say that from my experience with the city I could
just guess that several would be absolutely correct. For instance the
memo from 'z e La ; Department....
Mr. Plummer: You didn't understand my question, Mr. Neaale.
11r. Neacl e: Maybe if you'd re.neat it.
Mrs. Gordon: He made an assumption that 1
..r. :eagle . Yes....
Mr. Plummer: Were you satisfied in your mina that these figures as'
given to you by Mr. Garcia were correct to the point that you would
attest your signature as one of four verifying their veracity?
Mr Neacle: :re never discussed blow the line total eI:cumberarces
which shows $2,243,157...
Mr.1'' r • - indicating record, excuse me for
P ..T�,e Are you to me for the e:{ �:�
being Ec damned legal but this is how I had to run the committee, are
you indicating to me for the record that, in fact, certain portions
of this :;as added after you signed your name to it?
Mr. Neagle : Gh no, it was shown to me in pencil form and discussf.'d
at that time.
Mr. Plummer: Are these the same figures that Vol saw in pe; ci? q ?
Mr, Nea' le;
?.s tar
as 1 can tell.
X , P' UMmer; Then I once again a.S:r you ..s in: w pug Mind these -iges
4$ g_ ven to you that you were S4 tj: =� VQU2' I'.ir that. thy..ar- cam, aCl
were correct?
-'•lr, I, ale, AS to many of them 1 have no idea.
4!
OCT 0 71977
•
4
•
M±, PlUiftftert Then how could you sign your name this dOCtitent?
M±4 Meagle: 8ecause it was presented to me as an estitate.
Mrs. Gordon: Remember what I said before, Mr, Plummer,
Mayor Ferre: Mr. Neagle, let me because I just don't Understand this
now, You're a CPA, are you?
Mr. Neagle: Y, sir.
Mayor terra: 'Zou passed the eXamination and you'i-e a registered CPA
in the Stat--, of Florida. When you add your name to this 1 realize
that it doesn't say that vou're certifying anything but I'm quite sure
that the presumption i5 that when you add your name to four other
reople on this page, Schedule "C" Non -Payroll Eoenditures, Neagle,
CPA Accountant IV 1 assume that you are assuming the restcnsibility of
the veracitv e,f these fvores because why else wou173. vou sian your
name to It? Nov. 1 ask y'ou as a professional how could you sign Your
name .on fiv -:1 minutes cursory penciled—.
Ars. Gordon: Cid vu ever have :cur hand behina your back?
Mayor Ferre: What?
Ms.Gordcn: !")id vou get your hand twisted behind you,. beck?
Mayor Terre: no, I'm not imiyinc! that, L-lease don't misunderstand...
I'n not in any wav mnlyincl tha ct cCer-Pd cr
cajoled or forceo or anvit'ainq else. I'm not 'c at..
4
Yr. 'olumm,ir: Well let's donit, Mr..Mayor. A.7.,K the
as: tc Sue. .•• • . • •
Mayer Fr: I m Nr.
Mr. Plummer: 'Lou co ahead, 1'11 a hLm later.
Mayor Fern!: cou12. - r.or1pu- vour n.me on some -
thinc: you've seen for five minutes or am I wrong? Aren't you imp.,_ying
that you acreith these figures by putin g your nary--..: on it?
Mr. Nea1a: 'You must that I'm an emlov=e h-ire and that
many of m: follor; lcye 7^ s4ane3. this document. I have roason
to bel.ve that they wuid not ask ir. s.-..mazhincj that was not
true.
Mayor Farr::: In othe- wci-ds a^inc on faith on thei- ability
so yV4 went ahead, - don't mean to get you in trouble with the account-
ing...
Mr. 7:leag1e: There is nothing un-eesonabi about doing that.
:Aayor Farn: 'Zcits, but it or...tems to me that the sthical laws of account -
ancy,.vou know 1 den't want to get vou in trv:tble but ogg:;ne for ycu
to ?ut your name on
rsev. Y=vor, c;ear1,..,r1.--h, 1 'ex-7d do just what vou hav= dcnc%
another clergyman came Z me and said to me, "Gibson, this :s a
documi-n-.... I'd i.f.nr you to sign," T unde,-stanf,. your oceition. I
th.2 man vir.t asksd you to sign it, crs is he? Who is the man?
N2F.7.1.,.: 77.,arcia.
Rev. bson: Ga-tia, cc back +0 thc. -7-4. Now it seems to
me, 4:/".1 not oreaching you know I get 44.n the puiPi: =o Freach,
It woiald a7-pear to me that it isn't 2air to yo..ir collea;:,es e;:tven
if tha.7 wor.r. '-Indr you a.:11 1:laybe ycs,u .tav not b. balanced if
r ••• ^ —f • • 4 r ., -• • •
• _ ....
•
.., •••• • ' ... . .. .:4...-, . • .4.. . • ... ,... 0 1, •.• .1. ... .,. . . a ...... ... .....: W :1 ... ,...k ,..:7 ,.. , , I. i 4- r•• .... ,:. he. 1 .; .. -, 1 ' : ...'s •- ,, c-r.
- - 1.-1 '.• - -,-.),„.., i :" - , --, .,.• ,..... -1 4_ ..„ _ .._ . ,
,„„ ..a4,, „ „„
---„, . , A r. - -..,•, (*n m.,.: you 4•ac.-.; ,:-.,.!, let me to,u, Lt thi,,i ,,,i,.„,
...... V Ylaybe
a;71.7-j-...liztrt!..z .fi....Ld'-',.- ta:-.;,... -...1.7. oer'ousl, ..avbe h,.Its what is
se we wa;:---1 c;ong to it You }c.now
way, -..cu don't knew. 1
w-�
•
to okk for an insurance coipany. Man, if you were a penny off doggone it the
nett week they wrote it in red and they said put this account in balance and it
was no accident I said yet sate impartial people so I could know what I'rt
doing. Now I hope this commission gets the trend of thought that the people who
Signed this document should not be held responsible because they did what any
other person would. But what we need to be concerned about, the number one guy,
that's what we ought to be concerned with. I have a feeling that you all thought
we were going to be a bunch of dummies up here.
Mr. Garcia: No, sir.
Rev. Gibson: Well, I know one thing - you may not have thought it but you doggone
sure get a cod way of treating us that way today. I want to thank you, sir, for
pursuing this matter in the manner in which you have. You are most gentle -.an and
professional it it and it disturbs me world without end because I only go upon
professional ad'fize and here we are, this kind cf thing coming in the open. I want to serve notice, :•:r. Mayor, I may not be here after November Sth but I want to
serve noti_e on everybody whc works for the City cf Miami whenever you are 3$3ianed
where Gibson is concerned you better make doggcr.e sure ycu're telling the truth
because you never know when the :icl. Scirit is going to guide n_ tc uncover YOU.
Mr. Plummer: May I inquire, Mr. Mayor? Gibson says he cnly prieaches from the
pulpit, the only thing Gibson didn't say is when he preaches he gets paid. Mr.
:Mayor, I would like if 1 may to : ar:e a statement and then ask a question of each - of the four CPA's which in m.?, estimation will get ..t the guts of this problem.
Gentlemen, 1 refer ycu to this document which is Schedule C of Exhibit "G" .:hith
sure all of you are familiar with. =.n I correct? Is there anyone not familiar
with it? Ali right. As an individual commissionerassumingI a� that by virt
ue
cf your signature herewith attached that are certifying that thisdo in r'
you
- g c e..� t.,
the best cf your .:nowladge is correct and true and not distorted. now, since I
will in the name of the signatures I will as you, Mr. Garcia, did you sign this
dccumwent under that assu sn cr were forced to sign it?
- iyou 7
;'r. Garcia: Sir, I was neither for. d nor did I sign cn the assumption that I was
certifying these statements. My signature relates here to the fact that I worked
this statement cut with information that we had at thatcertify~ e°- point to the s�3t
rent we will have to go into additional procedures and find cut exactly some of
the information containing it.
Mr. Plummer: :•!r. :ouch, the same cuesticn of you.
Mr. Houck: No, I was not forced to sign this and I have not signed it under those
circumstances had I been put in that position. Second of all I feel that my sig-
nature on this document indicates that : have reviewed the numbers there and some
of the supporting documents and agreed that those numbers are supported somewhere
by some supporting deceme,ration as to their veracity and that these will actually
be the true numbers after the books are closed, and we're two years dcwn to road,
I carnct attest to that.
Mr. Plummer: Mr. Jackscn?
Mr. Jackson: I was not forced to sign this, I reviewed the numbers and to the best
of my knowledge I believe these are the best estimates available at this time.
There has been menti: n from Dr. Hendrickson of numbers chaeggine, these are cb'.iously
estimates and the further you go a1.ng during the year the better your estimates
are going to be, call us back two weeks Iro:o new and we'll have better numbers.
Mrs. Gordon: `;r. Jackson, just how much time he took examining it, I want to kno e
Mr. Jackson: I spent cn the document itself in the neighborhood of three to four
hours examining the related supporting details.
Mrs. Gordon: Which day was that, Mr. Jackson?
Mr. ..iackscn: Well, part of yesterday and the day before Split tp beeWeen the ba
days.
MT, Plummer; fir, Neagle, the same question of You, sir,
Mr, Neagh: I certainly was not fcrced to Sign the docutent
ions of the time the: was spent oI: considering the numbers I feet that the Fwubers
are reaser,able.
.tr. 4-«cr . Thank
You.
end Wietir the 1 t.m.tat'
7'�
OCT p;1, ,
Hayot. Aittights PlUther.:•anYthing else? I'd like to Make a state-
rt'ent and I'd like to addreSS it •tb you, • I think that What We've One
tht.'6U0 it this last hOut is Very Ver4Y inditatiVe of the probleMS that 1 think
I'Ve tt..ed to tenticn which is a lack of Communication, You see, what these •
five Signatures say nrid I think rather innocently is that these five gentlemen
he faith in the figures that are presented here, 1,k,w you see, but you dottt •
say that. Now you assume that eVerybody knows what the fife signatures meat
yeti cantt assume that because I think what you have to put on this pa .,7,e is, "It
out Opinion these are not certified verified figutes but arc reesonnble
Ate' and ws fbel comfortable with them." sjgned five people. There ..-; no quest-,
ion 23 to what's being said. ?‘ut when you the. thins, and T. understand
Mr. Gunderson, I don't know whore Gundrson went. Mr. Gunderson, I under-
stand that under the pressures of a document to the Honorable embers. of tne
Citv Commissia that says Irvin?. rL, rmD, Ci'A, Harvey Hendrickson PHD, CPA,
JAn Rn2tca I= and Williaat Wel:hHDinitinls in a ver7 ler;alistic kind of
a tliing on ean rage and sned in th. end sayin7... But 1 want to point cut to
you, for4i-7e re .for dcina this and I' not a CPA or on accountant but thOse
ci-
naturos -r: a zatemk:nt and the statement s;Ays "In recognition of the time con-
straints placed on thse te6tifying we ap?racinte, so en and .;.;c1 forth Plummer
who did a ;;at jc:b and so on. We hope cur findincs and conclusions will assist
the Corzlissinera of th,e City in arri-iins IC equitble decision,;... Thank you
for .thu ol:•por%niy and sc on." This Ls their nonolusion thcy initialed.
Now if you, I would just counsel. you L u 1i orzive me, in the future when •
you and four associatas put your nan-e.s on sotrethin and sign it that you e:zplain.
what it is that you'rt si.F.ning and then crn avoid the kind of implications.
thatthere h-,s been cocr:sior. o•threat:i..orthatcne thinc: •said somethit3.z.hat:.•it
doesn't. say.
Mr. Gunderson: Mayor, may I respond?
• MA:;or...7erte:. •Oftourse.
„ . . . • . . • , . . • • • • • . . . • • • • • • . . • • . • • • • . • . . • . • • • • • • • • • • • . • • • • . • • • • • . . • . . . . . . .
CuaelerSont l'a.••cn the frOnt.'t„"ia7e•indicated••••thatit..waa...-a•••FI:•76-7.7.'forCaSt.•
..NowWe•-prohab.1-7Could havn:•ben...tCre..cpliCit•...in.Whatfcrecest neenS.•ift.term
really nays •that tb. the..best• of.ir judgement It thiS...W!-..s•
.What..weL the actual .fi7ureS and. have no an to grind raiative to the
des..:Ination of 17!.:7,ur.s thnt• aiS-c not aorrect• nor did thefour Eentlemen
-.are nnfre wc.'k-ln:„: in 1:hc, profoonal atmosnhere they.'ve•b-n
hirecl an they ta it as n forecast and I will tell you now just
as it ha.-..:pen...d in the pai:t. the fL:...7res St.lhjCt to re....ision, not major revis-
ions in tertotal balances availbhle but to revisions when you mke an audit
in closin1; and that sort of I'll you an e%ample of how bad it can
ger. Dr. l7,ar-y 7,1-7e a -r,ii_p:?rt: yar. Cty cf hni.He predicted that
thre oulJ. 1-..e a 1.9 etarting 3otober 1, 1975, I hive the repo:t.
Th.re ;:tr, a Zl572,(.2C0 Now that's not dispara:,;in3 Dr. :li:arry, he
believed ';hi.lt bu.t ce.r feel that we hn...e pr.Dv7ILI.ed th,!. max-
imum amount of accuracy wtthin the ability f our depdromn: to perform %nd
certify tnis
Mayor :Fcrra: Al_ right, I think if :ou just put n very simple phrase net•tite.•
you put yol.:r to scmez..'hing e%71aining•what•youtre signinq I think we•••can.•••••••••„.•
avoid these k.1.hd of p:o1Q!s..
Dr. Barry: Mr. :a:.'-':, inae Mr. Cunderson rpened new destirony once .,gain I
would ju:Ir t say e .:ew brief rnments which 1 are 1,-4-1 1= ,-,ttr
Mr. 1'1- -ner: Dr. L,arry, e::cuse Lie, sir. The rule rrelizated by the Mayor and
laqd - would ,,,ek be ..d.b.erd to. That rule is Dr. Hendrickson w.as pursuinz
his and I t.hink It is only :air, you can write dcn your questipas as I am.
Dr, Barry; Well, did Dr. Hendr1,Ason :is the .4-33u2 of what I purportedly sai6
in the uus year?
Mx, Plu.-.aa; No, but t'aink he is entitLed to the right to finish i what
sayin3, Lr. Bar:•y,
you, mr. Plur.,xer. I11 right, -.tetra back to Dr, 7.-Ier.dr.Ic,;,..7076!
jf 2101,1 voc..fd mov alonZ ap4 You :iiii 7,cur asscc.iotes whi.ch heat4.,
-0 , • ';
Or -r J:
IA
,„„ ,._ •
0
Dr: Hendricksot: I think that one of the points that Mr. Gunderson made at the
end relates to one of the points that we made in out report and that is that the
estimates are under his control and... There is a discretionary action so within
reason he can :sake that balance come out, you know there are restraints on it but
obviously he has some control for example over the transferring of funds and this
sort of thing that can affect the bottom line. We're questioning the arrival at
the bottom line and we've found wide disparities in the inputs that do make up
the bottom line. In fund accounting you can do quite a number of things in your
estimates in this realm of conservatism that can drastically affect the bottom
line. ... The questions for the other men, I guess there was a line of question-
ing, I think Mrs. Gordon had some questions that....
Hrs. Gordon: No, sir, I was interested in bringing them to the microphone for
your questicning, sir.
Mr. Gunderson: Can I respond to that statement, Mr. Mayor? The statement relat-
ive to management's discretionary ability is a myth. The discretionary ability
relative to liabilities that the city_ incurs is an absolute requirement. It is
not something that we can either set aside, deny or anything else. We have a
certified public accounting fir:, teat Marwick and Michell who comes in and exa-ins
these in detail and certifies that those liabilities exist. Now that is not dis-
cretionary.
Dr. Hendrickson: I submit to you, Mr. Gunderson that there is discretion because
they want you to be conservative in estimating those liabilities but if you, the
idea of conservatism is the tendency to ever estimate liabilities and under estim-
ate assets and if you are very conservative in estimating your liabilities they
would tend to have no problem with that because the consequences of being ccneerv. t-
ive here are if you've over estimated liabilities the public is aware of these
liabilities and, therefore, the :.hanee of a failure which then could redound to a
suit against Peat .:ar;ick and Mitchell for notlettingat the city was
e h ycu knew that
approaching bankruptcy or whatever. That is a very severe kind of consequence so
that the consequences to them, and this is true in accounting generally, of ever
estimating i1JJilieies are far different from over estimating assets.
Mayor Ferre: New you were talking about a hypothetical question, I_ don't :mean to
offend Imp friends in the press but sometimes you know these things end up in three
days in the editorials of a zertain morning newspaper that says, "Jr. Hendrickson
said that the city is approaching bankruptcy", ", now you didn't saya
that did you?
Dr. Hendrickson: No, I did not, definitely not. There was one line of question-
ing that you were pursuing a while back, I think Mr. Gibson and Mrs. Gordon, relat-
ing to who asked who to si`^ what. Who asked you, Mr. Garcia, to sign and poss-
ibly to prepare this document?
Mr. Garcia: Mr. Gunderson instructed us to prepare the document.
Dr. 'Hendrickson: Did he indicate to you what it was to be used for?
Mr. Garcia: As a presentation in frcnt of this commission.
Dr. Hendrickson: Did all of the people that you instructed, did'•ou
that this was what it was going to be used for?
Mr. Garcia: Yes, sir.
Dr, Hendrickson: Someone I think said----
used far?
`:r. Johnson: Yes, I did.
Dr, Hendrickson: Did ycu know, Mr. Neagle, wha ;e was to be used for? Mr, Houck?
Dk. Are there any further questions?
Mayor Ferre: All right, any ocher questions of these gentlemen? Dr. Hendrickson,
to n thank yoe very much for your presence. Any members of the ccnission?
!+'_, Plummer: No, but I think the next, Dr. Hendrickson indicated that someone
was going t'J speak en the _nterpri:.e funds as part of their presentation.
Mayor Ferre; all right, that was my next question, Mr, P1 _m" L,er, whec;ler or ,Q tt}e other tire# ;47e4.(r'ers pr .his paste74, are going to address eha colz_=sicn or ra`;e
ye4 co'1ered your points. Dr, iendric':sor?
OCT 0 7 7
• - • • ' • • • ' • • • • • • . : . . • • .
1)06i1•tt.. diffPr,-nr.p, Yr. MaVor. Unlike*he
othergntlen here 1 haVe .a little different professicn. • 1.tb•d profesSithaI • .
neuttaL At atbittator. I. arbitrate pritarily in t'ne Area of labor disPutes•
and also in employee benefit. plan diSputes, that's penSiots, health and welfare
diSOUtesi un;s of that sort. I also serve as a special master for the State
o Florida and have c.n seVeral occasions had questions like these posed to t8 .
sitting as a sincle arbitrator: Does a city have an ability to pay? I've done
thatfor example with the City of Herestead, the City of Hollywood, Delray 3each
and some other cjt-Les that 7ou may be familiar with so these questions are not
new ones to me and t have some ehcerience in this area. 1 prefica my remarks
with thcse cc=ent3 bee they ha%-e some baarin:,- en solze of the Statements that
1 will be making later -in my profesional ludgement as an arbiZrae7t and it had
some bearin as to the determinations that 1 tdde in this case. Let me also
state that the co7nlittee diVided a number of its responsibilities up We worked
tegethe-.' kin; but we scrated it so!;Letimes and work:yi on indiVid-
ual parts of the budzet. One of the things that 1 was as17.ed to work cn was the
Enterprise Fund. One :f the problems in arriyin:,- at specific infc7mation on the
tritere uid w17.s thc• fact that we were not providel with the information that
we asIted for as Con:Oner Flut,mer pointed cut. *,:e asked rapeate(117 for that,
we tvere are-j. wcule, have it, in fact, we called Mr. Gv.adars..)n at home. We
were not aLJe to obtain thc:z T1::: information on the Entarprie • .
Ftnid that was p':e.sent.-cd her todny, it's the first tirne seen it. 1 was not
called durin the wek anda,:kedrrrny adt!ohal info=atioa, hcd no know-
ledge that we Yera er.-2n bein asked to s':.bmit additional informatin, 1 don't
know eben,. o:ht:,- members of the r1 Eu.this -!s.n,ws to 7.e. n.rei 1=q: ne
• 'make Some ,i,pe::.1P.,:c3mment3. I was statcd :Itot• in to Mr. Crassie's
opening comzent than we had an opportunity or had been asked to ::,.1b.•i.it'out•work
ing papers, I thosn -:apers, 1 was not nsaed to tbn.z them. in terms cf the
Enterprise Fund zt.eolfically there are same quest:ions as to the amount cf money
that is actully available in the F.ntarpris F',111.C1F. The stated pUrpo.:e of the
City'snte.rpri5e-7ands to run en a self--;ufficient basis. To me that .7.,2A7-1!;
You :neither li:71-rh.77 not mah72 mency soln to rug the ,:n.tecprises
of.M.onoy DespiLe this tact the c-2.tY fnns
P6sitiehs• that cparate e...,torprises out of the Ce:ieral und ane has.dohe .so
for so7r.e tlm,7:. In ;:-idititn, althou;lh aSked fcr detaU in th.-. EnterpriSe
. were uTiale to it for this year we ,:jd roeive data fer the :nterPriSe:
•• : Funds bac:: ove-77 the la3t thre:?.•y-:7ars. .\ccordin; to the dc,ta preF;ented•to
us by Mr..',3uadersn the Enterp:L;e huve had n net ca4h Once iu
of ah aver of !,(":;Cic3 a year for the p-;•:it thr-:-,e years pl-u7; an hdiittonel
vr-
ae balanca of 5:60',COO in invesrments or lo,:rned funds. Yew thc:tre wus no explan: .
ation s o where :hose funds were loaned cr if they -Jere ever repaid but
there was an a:L'ount• in m:,ny million dollars that had tei,n either It%aned or was• •
due from or:. 7.hey may have been replid bur there was no indiratiLn
whether or nc7-: it inal Iur i obably ..-cas. The point is :hat there ''H• • •
seems to be some flexibility in the city's ability to denl with the irri
unds. Now perhaps 1S;76-77 is far different than the past three years. We were..
never presehze: th,Jz infonrotich so our estimnzas on the Enterpri.,e TenUs
are ba:,..e.21 on the infor:::.tion we we-.7e given. Mr. Gunde.77son :lutes in his rebuctrl.
that there was a $5G6,il1 item. this is 1%hibit "H". That omeunt was the am.:'unc• .
that we identified as the :-.1nLmum emc:unt that o-ou:".d he taken from the Enterprise
Funds. Tnc:, reastn that we identiLied that amount was si:tply because in the budget
we were siven $306,6i1 item, and you can find in the 77-73 budget, was. ••• •
identified as "Una:.locazed Funds" with no further a.xtitnation. r‘ow Mr. alnders'on'L
eKplenati:•ns y :lay be .very satisfacto:y, 1-aven't had a chance to look at • •
this but it the lirsz time thtt I've heard it io tbz w;is cnr rsez4 for tak-
ing that posi:_ion. Seo:•ne.17, there was rn :f• that was id..:ntifed.
•3$ a transfr from the eneral Fund back into the Enterprise Fua:l. Consieerini;
the. fact that there .1:;pri:1:: have 17.een money In ex,-.ss La t!':e Friter::rise 2unds
in,•.'pasz years we were just t,.nal..)Le to unrstantl why that amclInn was to be trans-
ferred cut o the r.7-neral :uhd to sul-:sidize losses. Again the documentation' may
be th'r, :'nd theY to Ili haven't sort if
Sp that is basiaLly where we stood en the Znterprise Yunds. I'm really surprised
to see that they were al;le to otme up with th:.: kind of detail ;his morain althoeh
they to work ca this apparently because >!r. Gunderson indicated at
th4 iC was unavaila'ole and they would nor be able :c otme
iz. don': mer.n to sugest :hat Mr. Gunderson has been inchtiona1'4y
withholdin from the cf:,mmittee, I certainly weuLdn't impli thz.
ilowevur, es an arbit:ator I ha-.-e o,:porzunity sL; in a of caus
where the oreditahilit7 if witnessesi.a questin and frankly Mr. 5undersoh's
tearir..).a: was no7 Now, ono ethtr ;em the: 7 think
like to ua thi briefly and -han I'll tu,n nhis eve:t Dr
We1sh. It ,;as tha; 4.n=ber Of Li*.;..ffrY-z4-1t; been prepared
CPA".5 an ftQa ha. ben
StE�ef testimony and documentation that was presented to the commi€tee. Upon testis
why that was taken under cath on the final day of the hearing by Cotmiissioner
PlUMMer we learned from Mr. Garcia and an Accounts Receivable Clerk that they
had actually prepared that information and although Mt. Gunderson indicated that
the CPA's had prepared all of that information, in fact, it turned out that they
hadn't. This was just one instance where we were put in a position where Mr.
Gunderson in my professional estimation was not thoroughly and truly candid with
the committee and I':a sorry that I have to make that kind of statement but that
is my estimation cf the situation. Thank you, gentlemen. Do you have any
questions?
Mr, Plummer: Yes. Based on your analysis, and I just want this for the record.,
Dr. Remington: Is this the Enterprise Fund, Commissioner?
Mr. Plummer: That is correct. Did you use in your anal.aation that exhibit
listed as CM? That document, the first page listed as purpose of each enterprise
fund and second page Cash Balances of Enterprise Funds.
Dr. Remington: Mr, Comri ssicner, if I could see that exhibit in front of rne.
Mr. Plummer: Surely.
Dr. Remington: Yes, sir, that is basically the documentation, I believe there
was another ;.age to that.
mr. Plummer: For the record, doctor, this is what you based
Dr. Remington: Yes, sir.
Mr. Plummer: As indicated the latest figures that were available to you at the
time of your analysis.
Dr. Remington: Yes, sir. I certainly wouldn't want to question the council's
discretion in determining hcw the Enterprises are operated, that's obviously none
of my business, I just took it from the data that we had available to us.
Mr. Plummer: Let me have it back because that's part cf the packet of the exhibits.
Dr. Remington: Yes, sir.
Mr. Gunderson: Let me respond first as to the availability of information that
has now been provided. Sir,....
Dr. Remington: Sir, I haven't had a chance to analyze it in all honesty to you
and you :..a; have answered the questions in it, I haven't seen it.
Mr. Gunderson: Yes. Ck. The point is that I gave the committee a retained
earnings schedule that was for three years - 74, 75 and 76.
Dr. Remington: Yes, I'm familiar with that.
Mr. Gunderson: hies, and I indicated to you that 77 was not ava;.labie.'
Dr. Remington: That's correct.
Mr. Gunderson: And I have not presented anything here this :corning that would
indicate that it was available; in fact, it still is not available, sir.
Dr. Remair..gtcn: That is my understanding.
Mr, Gunderson: So I resent the implications of your attack.
Dr. Remington: Oh, I'm sorry you resent them, sir,
Mayor Ferre • A11 right, ghr, lec's... .
Mr, Plummer: Well wait a minute, let's get to the bottom of ;his. They can
trade barbs back and forth but I've got to make a decision. Now Doctor, are you
ccnter..i g th:t he has supplied figures here this morning is furtherance of T t1.1147
Dr, Remineto.^.: No, sir,
OCT 0V 197,7
i
Mt't tlittnet: Oh, OK. Well then what le's saying is correct,
Dr, Retinstoft: Right.
Mt, Plumter: Your contefttioh,,,,
Dr, Remington:
Mr, Plutmler: Your contention then is that he hasn t supp leo other ducuiefltS
Dr, Remington: He supplied scme detail on the Enterprise Euhd that 1 did hot
have available at th-, time I made this analysis,
relating to the Enterprise Fund?
Mr, Plummer! That you had roquested.
D. Remington: Yes, that we had requested,
Mr, Plummer: Ok.
Mr, Gunderson: I supplied detait that you did not ha7,7a available/
Dr. Reminzton: That's available in the documentation you presented toda,
Mr. Plummer: !.7e11, would vril nem,o,v !-..11 me what it is,
Mr. Gunderson: Are you referring to Mr. jennin' Repert?
. el
Dr. Remiuton: Tos. Mr. Jennings' Peport, R. L. Jennings, Director Department of
Public Facilitier showinn the s?ecifie items on the different enterprises.
Mr. Gunderocn:
October 4:h.
Dr. Remington: Yes, you indioat.td to uS--thzt•,thnt information was not- a.-.7aiiab1?'
'and I. understood you to .Indicane that:it .WoUld not he avAilable.' • If yOu:did
not say that th,.:n I stand corrected.
. . . .
- Mr. Gunderson: Yes, I did rot say that:to
You'll note that it wasn't available At the time. It's dated
Dr. -Remington: Tin 7. apologize.
Mr. Plummer: Yoe knw like Father Gibson says,.it's'.alvnys nicc to hr.,.q1
it in
wr1t4ng. Ok? This Doctor P:endrickson's writing. Of.therequested dpcntent„ '•
It... L. recuestad: Documentation on Enterprise Funds-. • Inparenthesis: (c6nStraints
and requirements). :.ow it is my humble estiMtationthat they did furnish chat:in
this
Mr. Gund,rscn. That's correct.
Mr. Plu-mer: That's my impression.
Dr. Remington: Tr. Mr. .1,!rminEs'...
Mr. Pe-: To tl:e hes: of whir they had. No, you d4,'n't ask Yr. Jennings! or
any o-ther doeud.ents, you merely asked or constraints .end requirements. That's
all you aokad for and Doctor, I just tore him apart and l'n uot here to defend
him but I think in truthfulness if youttl like to e:Y.mine tkis which I' sure Dr.
Hendrickson ;.rote; ok, tnat's hat you :Isked for and : believe that's what v:t
got. Now if you wanted something els,e it should have been asked for. Thank you,
Father, for telling me t:j get it in writin3.
Dr. Remington: Commissioner Plummer, :hat wasn't the point. The point of all
of was : didn't kave this information when 1 made my analysis on the Enter-
prise Fundc and my analysis doesn't include any of this information,
Mr, Plummer: But Doctor, :he ?oint I'm addressing is :kat you made a
that said that he was cossibly being less than candid with you
Remini,:on: sir, I did. T'll 3t.r2 Oy that,
Mr, 721u7,,,er: C,,nc T1:11 saying to WA; in ch4s azd whe..46P4ment
that 1;4 kas furniahed what you a,.4ked for, Ok': Doctor, if I'M•WrOng:pl,eaSe,•
I 4-.i.waYs s:'•=i to b4 ,-ocrt- 1w:f.71,11. gve- yo4 a copy of this 40g,41..a;:,. •
Hendrickson, :'m sure you're goint omment
0
OCT 7 197 7
Dt Hendrickson: What the doctor asked for over and above that is hot
sheet; is still not available today so I'm still not-----
ir. Plubmer: Ok, now we're on the same, —
Mt. Gunderson: It's still not available. And this sheet
is not based upon that kind of information,
Dr. keringtcn: Exactly.
Dr, Hendrickson: Any one else? Bill.
Dr. William Welsh: My name is Dr, William Welch. I'd like to make a few comments
on the additional information that was presented by the City Manager concerting
the severance costs that were in response to our estimate of severance costs.
Exhibit "a" shows how we arrived at a range of estimated severance costs for 167
employees, Let me point out that the two figures here, the 33,220.36 and the
$3,682,88 are numbers or figures that were given to us b'; Mr. Cary's office and
I believe you'll find that in the packet of materials, Exhibit "C". Let me point
Out we also did a little more analysis than this because we wanted to confirm this
information so we also used the date given to us by `r Gar-:'s office in Exhibit
"C". In the package ycu have it is called Exhibit "C"•and it is page of 16 and
15 of 16. We tried to confirm this information by taking the periods that I be-
lieve it was fir. Murphy suggested were representative of the year after the lay-
offs due to the closing of the incinerator were deleted and those periods that
were deletedor that he felt were abnormally high were
the January 1 through .Jan-
uary 15, that whole section down through March 12 and March 26 and you can tell
those figures tend to be somewhat higher than the others. We then computed :an
average cost per pay period for the periods other than those six periods and pro-
ceeded to then calculate an average cost per pay period for severance casts that
we felt was more representative and 1 think Mr. Gary would also have felt i`_ was
mere r ^_ reseneativ , 'icr: the period time that there was an abncrmal layoffs
due zo the incinerator closing. Now we get additional information, have
tr. r.cw we
additional information actually it was _..formation that we requested during the
hearer.,,. We anted :,:now, and : think the tapes will hack us up, we wanted to
know who ',:ere the __: ie that were :ling to be laid off and what were the severance
cosh the ci+-v cf laying those people off and we asked that question or words
to that eff_:t iir-,ot1• and 1 think we asked them more than Once. We were told
that ...•f raation 'w:_ not available, that would take a month or so tc get that
information. :t has teen a week, and some information is tiy v311 rarenavailable.
l
This ic. a o..1•3.'1 we faced throughout these hearings; We cet an estimate, we get
information; 'w, look at it, we ask questions; Dr. Barry occasiona:lv would _fto:.
35k �uest'or.s, would ;o tack and we'd get additional information and we'd
as:: cuestion s acain, we'd pinpoint it, additional information. I can say this,
now we'__ . ,lown to r,w data it locks like because I think : saw a computer
:runt cut the : eo 1e who are to be laid off and the cost associated with laying
them off. It setcSas .. me that :he nrnber that they came i wit: a.r I believe _t
was S2. 4, 30i: and some odd ,..;liars, that seems low given that we, and this is not
a rig:rouc .a.^.c ly=is at al' but we did ask a gentleman in the hearings who was a
fireman who had been told that he might be one of those laid off, we tried to work
up an e•stlnate Qf what his cost, severance pay would be should he be laid of and
thee: we built that to see, or we multiplied that number r by167 to see if we
were e:'er. in _: = mar{ o= what _ c nosslble severance cost would he and
deli eve that care out to Sc_,D, OOP', to $700,01:0 or something like that. That's
at-roximv-z' _' t -" a the .'u-nbe= :ha. the city new has gi'i?n. us. We were working
`Aitn .inade .:at_ ..data, we believed we were working with inadequate data, we were
cn1y wcrki.'"c .._th _h. data we were given and aptrcxitnat_iy that's :about all I can
sa' about it. I think it would be worthwhile to get into the raw data and we can
pr0bab.y come uc with a much more accurate estimate of who will be laid off and
ow m"ch it will cost the city to lay them off. That's about all I have to say.
Mayor Perm: :%11 right, 2,cctcr. We hava not heard from... Ch I'm sorry, Mr.
Gary, I didn't see ycu. Go ahead.
: r Howard Garr: ^'of
.-C4.3... .... t I.rS _ all if the CCIISRl13Si0.^. :Jot1l.". _'1'Z2 co :ago 9 of 16, Exhl.bit
nr.n
Maycr rar;'F. ?1wrn_r, yql,, n't reed to translate that che,
a -'-'r.rner t i "i "appY :col ' ra
First of a_1 I' ± like to tuake 3 cc ram. ez . t at 2V] [ Iltl 1 Wa$ 'Pert' dif
t'ie'n to eter"a"e ."c'4 'tut.'1 s}'culo Fe att�l.^utab.4e to sever,=rc:, p4y,
• T_ �7 ew of that it appears t""ar no conclusion at a' �. is better t-a' conclusions
ons
"`d,.4c on fall'dv I'd like for •7cu to look at the second paraorath, NOW we
OCT 0 c'9??
ln.fOrted theM cf it at ti-at "ite that the oity hed expended Z2,CM,OCC in tevet
arideHoay4 We also informed them at that tits that it w1=-' difficult for us to •
detettine how muuh thn 167 eMplovees WoUld oest. Based cn that expenditure ot-
.1:240O0,030 we found tut that the average cost was t4-r day ftt severance
tOsts ter persto and we I:rejected that. A.", a ex:use me, that's E9.63
per day. ,*; a result :he expenditures came cut to two million three. Now,
would turn to pa7a, in the sarte exhibit, page 14 of 16. New we lave them a detailed
record of expmnditures by month. Now if you notice the seried of January 1, 1977
to January IS, 177 we expended 5334,CC2. The period from January 15 to :anuary
29 we e'ohd Z;321,l::0. now, we did not use thtse t") d,-mcnstrate to the
panel that after layoffs the severance eay would decrease. now if vou turn back
to pa .le ef 16, please, the last parrah, It says, "It has been alle7e6 that
aftsr lavoffo the cos: ef sevarante pay shc_uld decreaee s..preciably." 1-uld c
last senttf that pararlraoh tr the :7efehd aehtehoe of that oaragraeh it says,
"The 'period orior te layoffs whifh was used te rievelep an average daily rate was
Ceteber throu;:h 7anuary 3, 11'77. Durih,„; thie petecd the averac,e daily rate for
severance pay W2F 3,2C." ara we showed them that after the layoff period the
average war some dellars and that was noz to c.,tve them an averam tha: wa,7
to show them that the fidures •after the lavaff peried actually increased. now, to
take an average prior te the layoff and an avera:.:a after layoff -is totally incon-
clusive - i' that ,Aay, new, to ta%e the averaa before the layeff and multiply
that times the number days in a year and cLme up with a flohl iT.2re and than
subtract that fro.udgo: amaoht and than ai'aUme that that
cf lald off tesple in un'noard of.
Mr. Pdrommer: Hoy- i,.cse, art_you ready for--thistn
than tOth-of tneir'S-.
• • .
Dr, Wa1ct,„
•,„
that we were giver. on searance-,,oetta*,
es the data that the analysna 1see.-:.±..:.7hieTca the data
cave us: We a's'ked for Mat-e date we as"..kad-for better datait
4. 1E1 I
r-ush„Morn
'..laycr Terra: anythiag
' •• vay.,ar
Mr. Gary: . Mayfr,mv e2=-ca-
for ne: only just the :.:••nelh.it,alse,fer-our •seafl.,,You-'know to:see:that feu -1-7.ttSw
we didn't yea sw make an effert to cva -daeayeu kneW I totally resn 4'et%niet:that,±
me :.itre y'au an exami:le. This 16 r.1.7,:rt, and after we mi.,: Thursday Merhing, •
Thurnday hignt, Thurseay meralog at 1::-C we were given :hosi? four :pt:ions that'
Csmmissicner Tlummer had before him. New we were ask,:.d to
prepared the next mfrnion.: fer the mr,•ttin:7; or'. the panel which was to. bac:1h at nnt-,
C'Clock '.hd it was un6ersttit/4 chnt we woul make tn -,,ffr7rt to dn so fr.. we eoke-'.. •
than: yeu %hew it is kind cf difficult at in the morniho. How oao we hays'.
this if we rer_art to wfrk dt .Jr ih ene htur? 7v4:rybcdy saidwe'll, try
no ge,. io an that we anyth ts hi-5e and we wanted
ze• present the information to :he teoel, I had my staf TC heme at aod otme
hack az aof wa that infermat-th for the commisaion, 16 sar:e repert from
3C: to now, we also informed them that :2 the informatien was -
very :liffifult in view sr t.:e aehstraint_: bc.d to m..lke a defision and in
term. st the 2.4yaffe and the I•ciitions tf the pefple that.. would be laid off we.-
teld tham i: would ta?.:: soma time to throu4h departmehts to get what happehd,
last year. That waa cemmeht, now, sint, that time: we've had ah si-tortunity,th
do se, Ncw my thiy ctmment is that if veu did not have the gl;tals
and:tome up with a conflusion5,CO to 1.2 dollars eft. the 'ball._
p4r%,
; We do't tmaeze, we estimate and that4s wna: we'rn :411
the best ihfsrmaoich
infrMetit:n we Wa iskei fer More:at7,r that,le7.,e45,ioo-
ai,hed-for merhnl.
: • . • : . „ • . , „ ,
-we:-were teld at . .
"-;;I•W'ia,T-67H41,1
E.-.:-„2 tha: this is' an eStmate7 . • .
,,^7041
OCT. O'f•
i
Dr, 4veleh: Agreed
Mayor Ferret So you know what's sauce for the goose is sauce fer the gander, t
think that what he's saying is that these are estimate figures and you're saying
well you estimated, Sure you estimated it, how else are you gcing to make an
estimate but estimating:
Dr. Welch: That's what a budget is. it's an estimate of expenditures and reVehues
for the year to come.
Mayor Ferre: The question is that we're getting into is the accuracy and the credi-
bility of that estimate.
Dr. Welch: Right.
Mayer Ferret Alright, anything a .se?
Dr. Remington: `.+„r. Mayor, I'd like ti respond to that. 1 think the real question is
we were provided this data by the city. We made our estimates en the basis cf
their data.
Manor Ferret Of course.
Dr. ReilrititCn: Theft they broughtto new ata� wemade newestimates. Pr''ts the
additicnal data that Mr, mar: has now rovided would lead us to change our estim-
ate, we have not had a _::ante to do that. We provided stir estimate or. the basis
or the data that the city gave .._.
Mayor Ferret Thank k you, Doctor Remington. How about Dr. Fantle do you want to
address te.e ecmmissicn at this cinc?
Dr. Irving Far.tl: I weuid like to address myself to the f_urth item cr the item
that hazn't teen discussed efere, it is actually Item (2) where we estimate that
there must be sce salary ia: se that must be taken into ccnci ...ration. The salary
lapse pre': ided for in the O'_ dgct was a million and a half dollars. Mr. Gary in
his presentation tt is stated, and quite affirmatively, that the budget prcvides
for s full employment payroll. ether words the a Zumnt_or.s in the budget were
that every etsi:isn would ta filled .°or __ full months and that a fieere cf 1`:
million was eue en _here as e cushion. However, the way teat °_ jure was put -n
was rathr cese...ar tha
t a e ..
lion a. half dollars was added cnte the revenues
d an a ri.11e::t 1 er.l ha_f was adel d on to the e.{eenditrez .1 that actually the
illicn and a ..a1` is :Z "A ,. as; _:.nsa_ ien.. What we have to look at here is real-
ity and :hat _s _ :a t _:r _a±n tos,tions through attrition through retirement through
.he ^.rooess of .._ring are net gcing to be filled for the full year and, of course,
hare again we're in the process cf estimation. Ae--e =ing to the budget there was
supposed to be _?..?' positions provided for it `e.e rudeet.
OCT 0?1977
1
1
Of these, 130 J5_%.. o:'G have not :'e'-':. .. The ....:r? -..._,. it T.vCulL.
take to completely fill those 1S0 p..5it .._:13 1_ actually questionable. We
also --went :Sack to the prior years' experience and <Ut.l:._. that very CC? �.—
vqatiS:el, ....'3EG a conservative figure and you C'.... see in our exhibit
1i the second. item-- we used a'.out unfilled or ia?se''7 oosit.^_ns at
aLl. time: which would give us about .1S3 oesit ono throughout the ye. 'lit
all _1 the same placed l'. '3. nature .i1 . but a: urd J..Calrl t1c? bu st. 183
positio::s would not be filled at all times. Mt. Cra' himself stated <. little
while ago that some of these positions wouldn't be filled -- he had about
Ub pcsT ticn:• for si:. .months which would ;1-Ye _ you an avar:' e of 1i0 posi-
tion.' d'uri:.g the year and we have to make 3Gcie provision for chose. e
I7iada a :a_cu1ati.n on it, i.:c t'Frr Dr. 3ar ''_ ..ontt'.ntion5:n it .and ."ound
that there :is SI,362,000 approat-elv in e::Lv..... of million :ha: could
ha anticipated to arise from unpaid sa e iies frc:'l unfilled p._ :sitila... .during
• 3
the year, and that is the E.L-lure that we used in fur estimates.
-Mayor terra: All right, thank you.
ar.•`v»ar:i : Do 1 have a chance to respond to it? First Oi all, the '..:
rai11±cr was not a cushion. 'The 51.5 million is an anticipated revenue that
we have to achieve as a < salt o:. Salary Savings. 1
during the a:. Let. me
just give you some statistics . eca'uS;_ it really concerns me that we accept
his budget . _'u :L.'isur:e that you to :live an additional Si
million. I can gua:.'inte? you u i s:.t n _.. et. ..:' 1.: have a bud QC::_C _•
.Firs`, let :a just alve _ ;u some .,..._.._......o... ...-.it y ..?'r, ..t the ......:i
-'or: the. year we .._.d 1-=)0 vacancies. We had 1:0 .'aca;.cies..230 :ac:_u_.:s at
•the beg :i.in; or. the year. Ca an F:'. :!.'7,ayr211we, maintain 160 ,........:K'::+.
..We generated i+1. j :_1 inn. Now, ....st :car, at .fie beginning :he yearwe had 24 5, i . aea:. n:ems.. During t c year, we had to maintain ?.' .!':........a* . -.
S
�:+0 vacancies P' �: _ r -e ...'.. ��i '
to � =li:fir-. t. i' _, C million. Y^ai why la that
51Sr1i..1 .._.._. Firstly, the
.c cartr . _ you reflects 125 vacar,cy•
that ...re not ..o...C:i`ed. Now, .._..tq 'a ... .:._.. •_'
t. pore J;'•L:, 5:.. :t
r=:ii: uc_ i...., th.... _ pLi^e.-ty_..✓ it r,fle.,,..s 0 positions :+.,.a t a:3 of 0ctc;--... I.
.i.. you .......• as of Se-,)tem::_, and you are _. ...
genera:.. w1.5 ... ..<.<.. ...., ....'.00ing ti be cii:.....iL. InO%:...< a.citie ...
the 2. 5 ..._�...a_. �n which... ....._C _.a the l ..p^.L , ... c.._ _ talking a au •
posit cL. :)r .:il an aVerageposition. YOW, v+_.t7 know, ..,.. ,
Sens(: tells _ . .. be:a.ind the ball aezinning day you'veonly got >' ,, fi:..a
are we goitlg c ?• get 30 1:4Dsi. (.n . of,..for f':ai_-'a Vi.ar on an <ver. ' o
.. — . O _ g to a11ow those ?C i.t .vs to be cilit". and have
1i::_.:. we curtail flu.. P_<:i.:`a ?
Jr. 'n.. _! ck-: a: 117rdon...- , _,u... 1 asi. :t:. Gar' a - question? my These -90 -
pos:t.ions _.:a: , old mention, e ...t=. they iucll:d the 130 po5:.:.... _tS
that•; ri. ar jetted fo ...._. year that have :.i:: he..heen filled? - 1 coun=
:•'Y., Gary: You kn...'. this fistrc', hai been c.i.h4 u:, I heard it yesterday.
.really don't know where t'i . s 1 3 n-from. What. Ltd like -for t. �l.. 1L comingyou o
do is just look .... the exhibit t:iat we : C % re, you :mow, those urn
positions that we ..a _ and those 125 are tc,t dedicated U S: :.Gild.
58. of :hose are _r:`ti ::e.
Dr. L arry • Mr. `'.a
a tit _:.__c.: %r. Farr;:,
'..arty: —were the ground r'ies
.:i. , ,ot:h , ..,'.. .
t�
•�{a_Tor _'e•r_e. . `, no, :O. ^t,., . C : air; C .�C groundrules have ::1c
•flanged,- ,.'.__ rE.co n_: e you aS ocon 'i3 rC. tt L: {a,.. 2 youn ask Y-
od J , :Ino. :ice ' Io :. oas, S croon as '4 e -are finished ith•Jr, ..^ dri .::3O' ' .-.
^ice
pree.;tnr _ti ., .1.1. this print this is Je:'+aee:1 •iir. '"en'dr..cksx , his C ree a,.
1 �.- ..^ i ,` is 1 1 • }1' it p t yo i;
BCtC..a. , � ,.. S.. _ _ :it, fit. CC.^^t 3'.C::, uT'.c,: f'-:l .ic ,< O; ct. ., uJ .'`:'."
Q -ii .. while.
••.v tsar:, it was . , understanding, for clwr' .. -c2cion • ..hat.
mil) If.:...ed positions . 3 what is proposed in i;r: of your:ot.i of
['? :cese were ..:1w...«. ,'$i i,..:j t7»:c'.= were el' laced la :r. Vtar
is hat :.Orr%;: ...:cart..
are talking
the figure... you say you don't know where the 180 figure came frot.
that the figure that you projected for last year.
Mt Gard: ..the reductions for last ;'ear?
Mr. Piuier: The reductions for last yeat.
+tt. Gary: well, there is 213 vacant after we had Made
Mt, Plummer: I'm lost there..sorewhere.
Mt. Grassier I wonder, Cotnissioner, if we are talking
You111 recall that the budget that was presented to you
380 positions...
fir. Plummer: Correct.
about the sate figures,
has the elitinatioii of
Mt. Grassie: 167 of them being filled at the titre that the document was
prepared. Now, t'ae only figure of 180 that I'm aware of is an estimation that
you have in front of ycu in this package which indicates --and that's exhibit
D-- which indicates chat to make the S1.5 million Salary £avincs we would have
to have 181 positions vacant for six months. Is that what ;you were talking
about?
Dr. Hendrickson: Commissioner Plummer, where the 130 comes from is based on
the employment that we had as of about September 11. According to those docu-
ments,there were 2,91.+ employees at that time. Now, if you are to lay -of. 167
then add that to tr'e 1+, that's the difference between the number budgeted and
tie number you had employed. You budgeted 2,929>: positions --I believe-- from
the General Fund for 19 7 7-78.
Nr. Plummer: Also, ::here the figure comes from Doctor, if :ou take that figure
and subtract 167 from 380, you ccme with 223.
'ir. Gary:
7,1 Z
Mr. Plummer: You are correct. New, subtract from that which 51, in fact, were
lay-offs not normal attrition, that's where the discrepancy comes from. Am I
right. Mr. Mayor, are you finished, Doctor? Okay, I would like to get back to
Doctor.. ricei.h. i made a comment before which I'd like to ,go a little deeper into
and it's just ray observation when I say fiat 1 didn't draw the same conclusion
that you or the Depa rtment...1'm not disputing :our right t0 your opinion, okay?
Mrs. Gordon, let ^_e tell you another view, and that's to clarify what 1
said before. Bu._ets, at best, are guestimates. But normally, budgets are based
upon the previous!_- nc:._:.s' history. Now, I feel that anyone with City knowledge
especially the knowledge that I have Sitting as a member of the pension 3oard,
would in fact show a different figure than what is presented. Last year, was an en -
usually high year _Cr retirement, enusual. Now, I've just az ed forand received
what would be the norm, because last year, if you deduct from the figure the 51
that were terminated, you then come up with 201 or 317 refraining. It comes out
that actual retirements, not lay-offs, retirements -came out to 301 last year.
o Okay? That is an usually high, high number which I hope will never happen again,
but let me tell you what in fact 0 years show you rather than 1 year shows you.
The avera:_e far 5 ';ears, in :act, shows you 177, that's the average ror 5 years.
(:N.it'D:3LE cc:2E.NT MADE OUTSIDE THE RECORD) ..Yes, Sir, right at 905 .'ears.
So, what I'm saying is this, that what :hey used as a projection for 77-788,
to.projezt the amount of `7.3 million severance pa- is high in my estimation because
it was not in fact an average year. 1t I take this document which was the budget
of 75-76, severance ?a'. was S750,000. Okay? So this is where 1 have e discre-
pancy with both of their Conc1usior.s because I have some figures...
!`.rs. Gordon: Then, there could... I don't care about the number, exact number,
.but what ;.you are in effect a.aying is that the one we received this morning is
or. the low side, __ that Torre,_?
Mt. Plummer: In my estii tion7..No, it's on the high side, it's tremendously
n ',;ow also take into consideration --and 1 hate to make this comment because
one of my dear friends is deeply involved -- but last year....
sirs, Gordon; J. L,, I meant the dollars were cn the lcw side, not the numbers,
MT, k' ,fie: ; No, t 1:. dollars?,the t:.e Estimate was extremely high, rhe estimate by
c'.le Budget riCoa rttent is ;nv est t' :.» aeon IS high*
OCT 0 7 197 7.
Gordon: The .:+0 hundred thousand ..wii-i.;=.'c d: .._..'s?
5td 8t: , the .$2.3 :ailli::n.
Gordon: oh no, n0, n0, Iln rot taiki,g about that,
'lfilh e ' Well, bill saying that. (��i UO BLu CUn L .'nVT OU.ISItt YL�,,'SL.1G
ura„-� r
RECORD) No. that's for the 167 lay-offs, Okay?
Now, l__ .u? tell. 'ou what else w'_'_s ...:'. ... se cast 12 months and
i hope it never happens a_ai n and possibly :he only one around is another
goodfriend an] C'1:it'.3 1),�'t Hickman. There were two eeple last yar who
retired with :.,-le.7tic ria1_ hi;:? s r _._,_.2 psty. .'',imcsta hundred thousand
dollars a -,;:an. Two people, And that ;:_F'slre if you just used their a':era .
ri"uro _ J 000 as .i,eve_lnce • av, C:'�parei t1 . L')0,0IJ'), that throws .'.o
�� V �r B ')::r�.t. . eoei 'o:� _.1:.: .Ds t .`l00.000 and,.
Li�'1i _9 out .. _ the ballpark. _ . •��a x. _.:. ''., ;
thectv Harris r c_e:'i d ..._:Lost .iO0,O0C. So, what _'s: tr: ii? tc _ay, Mr.
Mayor, what: I'm `tyLnz to say ..s in i:l::t, year i:: my estimation ._.�.s
and I'm sur _ th';_ I s how Yr. Girt Geri', d his ilt,'.rca-- is not the. nor::, .That
a.five-vear ann. ;; s T think, would Hive you a :: iz ferent ?i re,
Mr. Gary: May i _ _ ,rand?
vr. : lurrrer: Plea7e do, anybody,
Hr. Garv: ,se had areal interesting dissc`.;sai0
discussion .did _ little hcr..ewc•rk .,n
payroll rec.?c=s, 1?7A 197o an
there were _ , .:ver :nce.=, .
Mr . P] umrr..e:. t In what year?
Mr, Gary: t ':^,.),
::'lE ' • in 1.175 you
�k3r' 1 J�
Plu=.s>;
Mr. Gary:
�� ` �s tcrc tip .nd . a8, a resui:t:
u.+ tik? went back through a.1.
ti .. �7
! i �. and we found
6 4s, %:li: ..c re.' l.,srtii..c{'-'. I you are Cf'ir
+.r 1' 1=no r :
n i reefer: M to.
Mr. Gar,:
7-:i .
Gary:
? - ,r:ar: 197
1976
-roi recerd.
177snoion rixbrcs .»o 1d stil
:'+w ma
Gary:. nt leis .from, the payroll: ra:oords.
Ism s .rn2; _.,is is n w many pm+. ple.. ,
` a uSis aoc=1:lated this document for ..:e; ncw,
.::,want to know it.
h0
s : rom the; Pen
::i zi is vrCii',',,
.al , i t 1'.cs t then i rl-'': [:_. .,_:o i:.':e_ up a Or facts,
ts,
r
'1,{'„ •':Lit:.t r: May _ through lio" Hr. Nitor ti{r.Na ina Sir, you '.late i..0 nc;ast
these figures 't:l'it theyaru either ri'i:t c' wrong, wait a minute, Mr.i'` y}.?
'from'.:here Jam... you derive these fi"urati?
Vt Xasor:: 'From :he ,-.nrt i ":?,,:ports for the Pension ?_oo a»; however, .:v=:
t'e « _.i`.3'._'or. 7rogram are on a calm . -.ar wInto C:ie CLty is `.1'_1 w fisca
gar has: so 1 r'e dif:eren; t:Gr;bers.
=� ...__ r },� 1,
•rnr •>r. tl� �,u1 f :J t, thi. _._a' fir`-,•? . ccl:t:y.nz`?,.d
r '.i`.. der if there 1s .^.ct anoCner
1
0
Gofitissionet, because the Pension System, of course; only deals with pecp?e
ttho receive a pension, and we do sever people who don't get a pension
Mutter: Okay, I'll buy that,
Mt. Grassier You know, and it does ;Hake a difference so Mr. Gary state=
tents,..
Mr. Plummer: Nct a big difference except for last year.
ttev, Gibson: But J.L., let me call to the attention of all of us this fact
based on a Resolution I offered and was carried, you'll neversee anothet Ben
Denby experience around here.
Mr. Plummer: Possibly with one exception,
Mr. Gary: Okay, Commissioner, that gives me aft average for the 3 years of
249. Now, let's assume that last fiscal year was an unusual fiscal year. If
you take the difference between those averages of 368 and 249, it will re-
veal that it was abnormal b.: 119 people. Ncw, let's assume that the average
is maintained for next year, discounting the 119. Let's assume that there is
249. Ncw, if we take the low payment mean daily rate of $8,000 for 82
and we magnify that to take into consideration the 311 aI:d 5% salary.' adjust-
ments, we cone up with a new average of S9,19O. If you multiple- that tires
the average of 249, you come up with a figure cf $2,233509.
Mr. P1uarnee: Mr. Gary, let me ask you if you can tell me very quickly -if
you can't I'll wait until later- in 1975-76 how much was paid in severance
pay?
Mr. Gary: Actual figures?
r. Plummer: Actual figures.
Ir. Gary: Just a mute, okay, let me get the records back here.`
Mr. Plummer: You know where I'm coding from, I want 1974, 1975 and 1976.
Mr. Plummer:
did you not?
Go ahead
and continue, I think Dr. Welch wanted to reply,
Dr. Welch: I only have one question and it has to do with the statistical
procedure employed by Mr. Gary. Did you say in 1976-1977 there were 363,
was that your statement??
Mr. Gary: Right.
Dr. Welch: well, Mr. Gar.:, when you are comparing one year to a group of
average years, on what basis do you include the extracrdinary year in tha
average? Yee.: can't use the year chat you are comparing them to in the
average,and you just did. You have to exclude 1976-77 because that is a
comparison year.
Mayor Terre: e thine else? It's almost 1:00 o'clock and, you knew, we
havent' had Dr. Barry's say word one _=t and I think we cwe him that courtesy,
don't you thi::k? ie's been patiently waiting for . hours now, so could w. ,•
Dr. !':ends i ksonn conclude temporarily anyway and 'perhaps give Lr^ . Barry a rry chance
and
to ask a wh_le list .f questions, I'^: sure. Dr. Barry, with our apologies
fcr holding .' a up fc_ 4 . � hours.
Dr. Barry: That's __..e. I'm sure you've already heard me a lot and you've
already bees kind to me before --the Content you made about people not f l' ee
asleep durirg ey rreseneation if we took a 5-minute break and I -appreciated
that at the time end I still appreciate it, Mr. Mayor. I think, Mr. :'Mayor,
you are the ii: -i.t, as you talked to the Hnsian in French h but I think the
French have an e er.ssion _er it dej vu? I feel as if I've been here before
also would like jest as a preliminary comment to express cry sincere feelings
of sorrow _er the hardships that the City's Managanent has been placed under
an ac.coune of these errors. I think they are a normal occurrence in City
`saw. ageme r , I'd . leo like to diepel --I t cu_h t I had-- the rumor that was
suggested that 1 had done nothing but work for three months strictly on the
City of Miaw_'s budget, in preparation for my presentati,-'a. I'd like ee point
out th?t Mr, Jessup and myself have aralized, in that same span of time,
t?lorou hl , the f4nenc s of not enlv the C tv of r'ia"i but of West Palm Beach,
OCT 0 7 i97=7
tietra.soli,+-an Dad o Crsun'- Coral CablPs erh rain-'lle a d
tabpai durJng that sane period of time that wive been working her I'd
lso like to point out that something that I don' thtnk anyon can
deny
ate certain conclusions I think that are floating around that are painfully
ObVious but yet may not have been enpi4.c;t1y stated, and cn., of those is
thatthe conclusion to the question which I think we were asked to resolve
,which was -how accurate is the b-c.get prentatIou that yo,.1 are as,;.ed
to pass in -relation tn what : sai-2 about it. NDW, how accorate is that
budget pre..,aration that you have in front cf yo...:?end 1 think
. . . - . . . . .
to that qu'atan cs eovao.i.,4, with tbr ch.engthg f-r.ata tint nas
presented in after new by City Xana-gem,,mt, but not
City Management nny longer wilL attest to the cur of that budget cic-,me:It
which called for the lay-offi of 17employees 1:r.w,the miracle millicn
refer to it - f,Icetiousiy--, that no matt: how much you chan4a the
figures, for anample, that ey.hibit Pl-Immer4 you have already sulaplied
ue with that number—I:Hi?
. . • ••. • . • . . . • .
NC Pit-x=017! Ii 2,: 3 and tow•we have. a
: • „ • • • • . : . • . • . . . • • • : : • .
▪ tL'hci•iit,.a.--itin..,'„;•1..hill•Caia.:••••,'••••::• • . .
ehd-Of:the...:41'.'7'•••••••
. • • • . • •• • • • • - • • . • . • • .tdth • . .
CLty .1.anagenent r. SL 7.-."1111an•dottbi4-•
.. • . . . • • • • • • • . •
Ce6ntin..7•or-O- In t.aat doc.i.lme. ic ei th2 b• y. :,:oc...lt•:•••••••• ••• •
pointed o'.1t that t ti-. r w• hich that
it.04..t..ed-cunte.:71 an cz:t:a 17.alf. a pay •
•.:.s.pitE, of. th.7,5e. 'Whidh we ▪ ta, ahe
•tliatz Cnat
a min7.cle wh,:n• t"hcy chane-4.7,•d. thCi 3. . •
rfic :hithal- and cther e7rJra
'ay thl
that 7..7...-Zna-,1
• -• to
, . • • , • • . • . . . •
ari,d
tF:•
• • • ••••:.•.• • • : • . • • . • . : • . -
ro712t-..L.7.; bece ••
-,7a-7.;• a 7".rc.;.-.:: a •.i.!..'.3tir,'1.1:,::',1•••••• •
.• • .• • H- • ,•. •,•
tc. t.:-„ctar•tas4- **--v in.by
. • . . . . . .
• LI'', •t.:1Ct
— • • • ••. •
•empizyey;?.....A.a.d•Chey with: 8. 14.2rr:
H.:::::"wta•••conot avc.. lay -cff2.; ••
▪ rt•,cple on th. z;t:rceaz,it
••••••:-.••••••frbm•0•Po1--'1: as beat
••••••fisni')C'ecaus. lcns for:1.7,D1Zzch.a::d t..7,day by Cit.' Wth.:.s.•••••: •
the fa thar.• thc util-Laat:ca
it t,) ia.1-••••••• ' • • • • . •
of▪ c
cmphdzsLzally Stace law
t dpn••of•En'z,71rpri,:',., ca.c. cf Lhe 4n any c t otht...r
1.lhis••wao rin•a, City twh.n I raisi'H
▪ it wa, t .1.t..zr:day..ycn kncw, it wa:.; at zne. Sar.urcl.,L.y
raisod thc.f.•pcisi'..)ilitr of •using the surp1'.e in Var.ilL:'
in thc cs,-chcra. 1.417,:n
poiat out.•toay, and at that tia:e:: City .a..1„1 these oth6••••••
•••••..argt4-4ca:::3 Zd-cut ncw ahaz
anz!. • .
*506,00D cf
•-•tne which a ,..c.te was .7.akc,r, ahy 2. ..ItIAI:nen
formarna .51,3,cCO • tnir. ',bout Qvar •
tlaat• ',;as Tat inchay was n.-)t so:
docn=e,at of yoL as 740:1;74. .
11..7 Cndt a..W j'. t pCs: thc••••.•••:•L„;
year, by CIty • unV..r,',?.,*"..2 •
fnn.,."...but 170 innczer is a maLt:-:::
lo*.scau.e,e we c'...-.cd:Kvfl with
-.."t•••had researdn2r, • offide 7;ake :1-1?vi:•-7.0.. •
' f ta:-0 si--a law• ••
t btw'na the ::....f.4r2d was th: law in !.,he ol..• •.•••••••• •
n.c..7 we ''.•47".!. 4 w4v.
.t.:,•••that ":,seld. In cth.ar • , • - • : • •
all • 7 • •
„. „ .. • _ .. • .
W.;'“;r;14 0:;•har, t2L
r;:lat 1 • aan. zhc.
i
rfi beafd, them is money to do that but that's like sticking your head in
he. sand andiNew York City here we come next year)and so forth. But where,
ask you, unless we are going to allow the shell game to take place and allow
this attempt to punch ourselves out of a paper bag, and shoot the grand rapids
of urban finance, where in that original budget document, where in that docu-
t<seit does it say -yes, one of the four alternatives is yes, we can keep the
67 peopie on but 1973-79 we are going to have score real problems. That bud-
get message and all of the documents you've been given say 1977-78 is the
crisis year, we can't balance the 1977-73 budget without laying -off 157 people.
If we don't lay-off in 1977-7S on day one 167 people we are going to have to
lay-off more peopie en day two and more people on day three in order to balance
that budget. That's what that budget message says. and I think the Manager and
the staff must be held accountable for what that says not to allow them to shift
their argument to whether or not these people are needed or whether cr not 197E-
79 will bring New perk City to Miami, and I might point out to the City Manager,
which he :oust be aware of, there were a lot of illegal things that happened in
New York City including the utilization of bond :..cney fleatea for... for _ ysi:..._
capital i^..prc':e-:ents utilization of that .none`; in the operating budget to pa':
operating revenues for many years. A lot of illegal actions, if New York City
is ccmine to Miami I don't really believe the Manager, nor do I have any informa-
tion that would attest to the illegal acts which took place in the fiscal fi-
nance of that City as having occurred or even been pressumed to occur next
year within Miami. I think that's a certain amount of inciting to panic by
the City manseaement
'.•favor Ferre: And by certain editorial writers who like to use that all the
time and I might point cut elf I may interrupt you just for a moment en the
record- that the fact is that the New York situation is in no way _kin to
:Mani since New York is greatly in debt and the City el Miami only, only, and
I say o n 1 , owes ?'; of the total tax base when it can Ow: up to 15 ;, so we
have five times as much borrowing capacity as we can borrow which is unutiiized
which is completedly different from New York City and the fiscal crisis for the
editorial writer who keep:, cn alleging that fiscal respons' ^' ' ay of the simi-
larity between Miami and New York... the fiscal crisis of New York is completely
due to the Over-♦,aneelt': of ever -borrowing too much honey and that's the whole
crux of the matter whether it went for hospital schools or welfare programs..
that's what happened.
Mrs. Gordon: At _...,_mees _n.eres_ rates.
: ay or 'Terre: And that is certainly not the case of the City of Miami, and
.this is why the Standard and Pocr increased Miami's rating from. ?ate Al and
Mood; 's gives us an A= rating when the City of Sew York is C-.
Barry: Can I also point out that the Securities and E::chance Commission
has indicted a number of the chief political leaders of the City of New
York for falsifying bond prospectus in terms of for what they were using
the funds for and what the ccnoition of the City was and none of this, in
my opinion also Mr. Mayor, none of this in any way, shape or _form bears any
resemblance also Miami. this year or in the foreseeable future.
I wouldalso lice to say the one Conclusion, >tr. Mayor, from all of this
is, this type of shifting..you know, take a stand on one issue and when that's
destroyed then City Management shifts over to something tot0.117 new, pushes
on ahead into the future by a year, forgets about their assertion that a State
law existed that prevented the utilization of the Enterprise funds, and I think
this relates to Dr. „ ;lid ?n's comment about the eat.dor cf the Finance
'Di ac:et, that type of omission from co'tur..en: today. I :hink that the geesti0n
than becomes —must become in the minds Of the "'—'—ens here if even City Manage-
ment will not s:ick to the budget document in front of veu, had the figures
char_ed and they still acme .:p with the sate con .lusicrs, ==:_ bottom line
s.a'rs :he same b'uo all the figures are going, up and down and up and down, or
they can't sepport it if they can...and then they begin to back off of their
conclusions ar.d sav we can aOtuall_ do it this year but we have to worry about
next year and New York City
, be a problem next year, eta., etc., the chain
of hearts argemen if we cannot take as ac:urate the bestestimate for this
forthcoming year --the one we are in now-- 1977-78, how in the world can we
gyve any credibility at all to t:':e utterances into the fet re of 197,-79?
If a profit nannct predict what's going to happen today and tomorrow, how in
the world can we accept with any type or semblance of basis what he projects
Co happen 12 months from today and tomorrow? I think that's, in a sense, a
ahetoriCa . suestien and .':t sJrry tJ ass: rhe:orieal ,_es:iens, . ,o, I'm nee
sot:, to as rhetorical ti e s.
t The other.i I'd r' L:� 1i% e to point our. is thee we have hate today a part
of. .the exhibits that Mere presented at Mr, ne mer's committee,
tee,
0
1
I=M
Septe..aber 30, from Mr. Cary ,ioncechin a renest for data and
4nSWet to the request fdr -data on rious points —this was the topic of
d1StuaSion and rebuttal fCr 8 period of several hours, isn't that tight?
„
Tlunner? ',';ow, tame of the sat-ts ma-lo tcday by City ManaEietett
et this uocument was presented would indioate,frot is listeninothat any
of .these point-3 were strongly challenged,Ncw, I'm not sure that it is
•......-_-.extremely proper to brin4 in an exhibit whioh is only parz cf a case which
H.,••.has already been evalulted by a panel whith was crdered to, ho created by the
._•••y-.--.City Commission and leave only ore of tho,=e e:hits in the record as op,,
patently e%-en something new or some:hiag that steads irrefuta'ole, And I'd
like to point out, just because I think it has to he dora. that a number
f the iasues in her,2. were totalIy e...!str-)yed. And te point out on
pace 16 of :hat eLhibit, if1. may, page 16 of it's called, of exhibit C
Which was i:;:ven to you 1.1! the City today. :;ow, the purpose of this pas:e,
of this calculation. was to show that the per dly cost of severancP pa-c
Ht:lent up after the lay -of fir the in....ineraor workers Jr thP incine4'ator
--Ov"er what it was prior to the incinerator. Usin :z the pre-laycff perioci as
a typical "pariod" and the pnst-layoff period, after e7oryhody had 'rech
Paid fora thei.r severahco pay/ as a typi,111 period. Ihen,when I cane back and
rebutted ani but part of the lay-off you were running .::3,220 A day
average aveh with these lare sums in peric,dioally that Mr, Plummor
Hspcke to, a:..d a:rcr which =c,uht :o :$8:.0.6(.10 a yea,: -if ycu kept L-C.-It
20 1,and after f' hal 5ts wEr te oay
yOu-spent :1:1,,A32 a Cay' whidh amonilts to SI.Z.8 7.er year, you
hat you sza ,zay-Lng when you Say in the bud;et is you are sayin;,
. •- ufr orkin: tflson" Y“ar. In c,her tha
whi(h is more, n!6ronqtata1Y, daY throhout yhnr than
daily inIte or avar that preiented by the City. Of course, they.
anted, t: two pericUs icr a ferent purpose : to
neh,in a:1 fairae:.s,tha7.: whar they presont Cct.1-jan.1 and
2nO- 0-nd You tLe Avr,',7:. for those perioda,• waet.::. have we
had in any zestimc-,ay. either in. the pri.vate he:.•?, with -th,,a blue7ribboa •
or with yotc-eiv:s In tac had any
.wn:ca woa1d sh:w.th:at that daily rate would jecno to SE,S12 a daY
tao- work. in the •1. . s
•
tont w
:-.,••••s,tatetact t..1......,.%1•4*1.7,; not- n-ecvs-,arilv attcs:ed to in th: sens Or a cr.-•
•
• ta,s as accu.st whata,ier .1;1Z.aAt!.C.-0-5. •
C •o: C I think it is.. heard zaat thht was r..y•ally.
• • •. •
or •..ate the day 1-.,&fare and chat one of, t.hm •.
.r„-,•-•tes,tifi-:.:d he had 'hc.arh ot thnt':-! fcur hours, that,'s-.a •
noney. said that Fiver. the dJeu-nontation that he War,' given
-!,ut ey nhd:t the tt.;::tho-es:Id-thue:•thi,c
he•wild ..!oad.....!:t Were this sJme kind of .u:dLtihg One 0:•th,7,:-•
-• "'Other- ,-:-antlenah thn: he really hadn'a put m:oh tine at all la:o
th Co-ncne'ac 7,-:•tarday and 1 :•-uc. you that :he )rna!-ihn •
severanot-, pay th.c.:. yo-.:'ve been pl..'escat.:2d today was act!nally in the initiaL,
Lat,er than this, yes:erday afn-rno -a, oo:.-ause
, ae
:,;•heet and saii:,g -uow, what d:es neaa and hcw,..
-•,-.•"----.about this fio-.re, and what's this und what's that, so 'cle was through.
pro,:tss c-f coninz up agin and with the .-attom$2.3 ..
t.eE:tnrday aftetno:.;..-„ that'a, CatOber I believe, and only
. .
ai.terhonvs worth
- • La.:thor tnina that's a basic pr:bli:,= in com-nnicat.ica is. that we
no: al-... the thir.:4,whan City Marn.:::_a.7.en: ra.,pends a
pr.,:,facc.1 :heir resp:c.Fes ih o: num.oerL upon that•
prc::osed ah•-i tar:: :he hum'dar of 77.-
are the oF intn the year.- afl(1
,so fortn. laey era talking about :ha: Z1S if i: is sumer:at:L-1:c, s„.,..-irnd
that'.s han,ied :he elect. representatives of the City and which as en-ittsei
.ar,d T:nb'cor-s:c,mpd 'coy the.t, and I d•-.-.0a't that's it wh•at this whoI.e prddess •is,
„ilbooc. the char;:e th_tt was eialrzted by several o: the C.:mmiesionr5
was onitknow who :z I think, .7ather Gibnon, ycu saiU that.'
at: L.:, ha -Ye ac.%e pesple e6me in anj us. Do we bel-iave Dr. l',arry that
Li hyaila.ile co keep these people D1. board or Co we believe th,.:
.---.Cityat we tc. these peole off? Ahd I'm sayi_g to you, :
e;-.act.r:uestion that :ais b1ce,ribboh pnel 4cdre,isad the-TF,44
• . •..
'7.070 ttat wh?., 'hlreedy tta ah2.
n.._
. _ .
•
0 ..1 1 lje i
' ;
Although it's on tape. Thin exhibit C. If •cu lack a the: projection that
4asthe first attempt, by the way, andthis was the last day of the hearing
that this cane out, the first attempt to in any way refute rn: projection of
a built-in day one $1.3 million surplus in the salaries that are budgeted fat
next year. Assuming that everybody who is being proposed to be laid -off stays
•`Ol't the job and gets all the raises that have been suggested for the various
bargaining units. This is the first attezpt at refutal of that testimony.
I'd point...__
like to out to you that the whole tatter is =e c:- :,ac?
of 16, and I think this was brought out b' one of the memberstheb '12:'Dz s of lue-
• fibbcn panel, but I want to emphasize it so that you don't believe that this
goes unrefuted as a final product and a ratienallz. ticn by the Cite. Manage -
gent. Based upon the util _zaticn cf a nen-existing salary rate •whi.:h existed
•earlier in the :ear, in fact, during the per_ed frzm February i2...afta_ Fee
bruary 12, 1977. Now, the people who were on February 12, 1977 are no longer
•here a question with which: believe the panel was charged with was -do we
have the money to keep the 157 people who are with us now during the next 12
months? Not whether we have the ncnev to pa:: fictitious salaries to enolo•_:ees
and it has been tested that an abnormally ' - ne Ober had left'
far .. +..:irinr'� the
year. Sc the on1:: attempt at refutation of that salary projection which I_
gave yeti on day one, the first hearing that we had on this budge_, it was my
first point that r save_ you to show that .he :.'cney was in there
plus 31.3
million in the Salary Surplus. The only way they could refute that was b':
throwing an extra $59,000 into eaeh payroll above and s currentlybeyond what' •
being incurred in. the City and then using that figure whi:eh is `bb 000 higher
wha
t hat is currently being incurred and giving the ;� raises , and the .�+e
and the 11;,°; merit increase compounded cn top of that artificially h ie h figure
and that's hcw they get down to the bettor.. line that says that Dr. Bar
ry is
• wrong, by going back tc February. And I have alreay pci:lted out in peze 1
of the exhibit that 1 zave you at the first public hearing that :rem the
first day if the new budget as amended in January that as of 9/14 1. there war
•9.8.f vacant• rate below the January 21 level cf budgeted positions, cr
vacancy of 316 and that's increased ever. pay -period and I mentioned e at the
last public hearing ..:.at that .lea ecne up by 1 since I gave my first ^ t
so it's `ring up. So sayine that I think I addressed the problem in
that first meeting and the cnl" 'way Cr attempt to destrey it was to _r`'ate
a stral:-man. ;e11, what if we had the sane people cn .card that were here
last January and then gaee the all these raises? ' t wa 1de' t have enou- .
re:ley in net.. year's « •. d et to cover them even thcuah nex: 2 r' . budeet
assumes a further _edu_ticr of 176 e^pieyees. I can assure vcu that 1 was
not that irrational ee my pr-_'sentaticn.
Now, us: a brief ca..._ en. about Titter snipping by Mr. Gunderson.
•if you re -reed the. . ieett s --and .,' ii just refer you to it-- of the first
presentation which I eaee you durin ; the put lit hea� in. T ab
cut
_ 5 , � talked
rianageria1 ::anipuleti.Jns ef the budeet, 1 talked about haw City_ Maaaaement
failed to transfer a bud .t.d $3 million into the General .end in one revenue
item ai+'ne. : mentioned tJ you how they had unauthorized and -••- y: ar -_
unauthotezed 6e • ou sr.d uI a^.t:.zi?i:. d by City Management as late as Sep-
:enber 3 an :dditi. na1 $300, :00 in expenditures, a .. v? and beyend what :hey
• projected for ':ear -end during tha: period-- now, j st for simple ^,.athe`.'.ati::,
if you take 33 m i1_ien off the revenue e side and don't transfer in. and
spend 3EC0 �00 . nut •r .�, �.+� that's net even horit:ed above what you ?reject 27 days
before the end ef the fiscal year and only end -up with a 5500,000 deficit
in the General Fund, I really don't believe that that is .serious evidence
of a fiscal problem, because you've just reduced what the balance would be
• by about S3. Q '.:i11ion and I think Mr. Gun derson's candor would be inproved if
he addressed himself to tha: which 1 ea':e in public testimony the first
heari^2 in w _ch 1 appeared, 1 think it was at 5a. _rent ?ark. So, basically,
.'• ce n:lusi n- art suite ample. The eenclusion _s that I fee'. :hat the
Commission regeestec a review by _. :ri.^ ee he at pa.. __ .. _ :he ..'•Co _..`_are eza-
zions or prcjee:ions that were presented to ; c- . Cne by myself and Mr.
Jessup, ..y a socin:e, and . ne by City Management. I think the panel of
experts is in. The panelof experts hes written a re?crt. The pane: of
experts una nlmous in tha: epert even th.cu}h or. :hat panel _here are CPA's who
nee also _ :.. 2's. , s e2.nc a:..... entle.'en; there is a tercezect Finance who -e
Ph.D. in that area, and :here is also an eccnemist, :he is also a Ph.D. And
what T want to paint: :gut :O you i3 that having been in col_eze teaching in the
Department of ..ccromize ' o'' come time at any tine that you can Sot two account-
ants, a . _:lame Prcfesscr and an Econorist to a^_ree en se teeehin it's pro-
bably the beet supporting do:umentat o that you've received to date, pro-
bably
beyond what I've presented to vele and cer_ai^_y be;:^nd what City Mayna._ e-
ilenthas. So I suggest :ha; new that the eerart chat _ ' . e requested is. in,
t "t yru .a.'_ says and see if .1: answers 'tour ceesrion, Thank "Gel
very *'Ceti,
OCT07197'7
1
r-
4
.:.""'..:ft.i.'Pluramlet: I weLIIJ like you to r‘.::71 zhe
rthnttwas 7..,ad that yu pti-ltd -last y,,..or ta.a startin day ,f
• slioweri a poi:. 1. milli,:ft FtLitz cyr". the year, a,na
the
obtitent was ::ade tilt in L'Ict we strIrt?d with a deficit of fi-:e hundred •
thoznla:1,2 No;, before 7ou ,:take ycur .'Omen: I'd 1i<e to go
-;•, •
tb know whc.., violated the Chartet wIlet.e it says there will be no defiOit.
Aidt that he wh•t. i my I think ytu udanswer that cluesticn.
••-:1)r4. Batty: ',2.11, 1 thou7i.ht 1 had: 1,aIlly I th7'.n!,-. 1 id lso in the titutes
• • of the firs t neetin 4 where I tilde nr,: introdt:ctory an2. I'll try to be
';;,-0:earst• i.v pr,2s-entntioa.
13,1sical1..', I t.hir.k it 7:Slates to the ocntent that Was m::,Ide 1-.0: the
ch-1 th:7tt 1Ffict the .no':,ton linp
• tine, th.e7 ..rt. C. The a7,;c,2.nt rhqt t...-.7..asftre' in fr(--
• fund
where it appropriation:5 c.:.pond :ipon the of authcr:Izatioh
milliDn f..„-c-•m one fund transfrd lft (.aPtal
tt the tit1 that sur.Y,.us. vou a
-:±..•••:notatlon .Li the baianci. sheet fro-.1 thtl •enternal suditrs to this effect, ht
thvpoint,--!d cut W1X *1 thi:lk it ,..es !)1,6 in the Gcner-..il 7unsi
•• tu'oy the by
•'•••••••1ent. Frum Fepte.:J.cr 3 onwad7,.., thc,,r.e S0000 • SI.5
....,was• not At t!!::: tino I
this ;:,-.::,!.7.rate? • sz,:j.d. ye:,
S wa:,; 4.-EXC,CGO r.]f un7:uthrit
• .• 7.:a,j.i-1 az that tine betwean the- -Sei:tet,t 3 tnd.the- t,nd •cf-theyear.
. • •Mr. 1)lum;116.,.r: 7:11:-..11thor-1/2ad: . • „
O• arryt• 7,-iat It what you., .
. . • .• ••
. _ .
:
•autorid . .. . .
•:• •
3art7k:▪ : s, Sr. it the.
• -..
, -
• • -.,
•
•
• - • •
am'not vsing•the-.
2t1- .24,
•3O.rrdr hc d • -lo'venue
.,.-Hcec!ce•d- th..1 .res-pe-.7.tive Financ.al•
• , $1,..=.,&S,OCC For the Gel'..eral-Fund
-±cr .c.h4 Yundt -41.1r2, not ..Dy the' C. ty
-: iss ion. .1nnt' I'm v.sinz,.. • •
Mr, Pl1.=.-.1er: All Mr. M.1,—)r, d,..es :oi. Yque8cionscf
I want co =Aka a
Mayor 7.1..trz-,!: Zefor,e mae. on the record and all that, ars theril
any this tit? Al! right, hearing T:one, '.1;t: ahead
•lAt. Pluz..!.:e.r: Mr. Mayor, I just want to sec bick to t'ao point 1 was trying
=Lake rfarPn.-.e neveran,ze pay. 1%-,:c1uan„; t.com2.:nt.,; c‘f.-7 cut':
• of th,1 • of t:-.eL th-lt. you tne year that yo.,.
cotar.2r.t..-„; if I us E th?.: yenr, in 7.y estim..Itiln is
and I 7:ay
6i .I31,L-5'7,11., whit'n y„.7u. :;.1.-:77,7!:'21%.:..;ctt
avera,e f 5. S754,139-- ta's.4:14 th,, 51
a di:.500,000 that is 'why Ti s.cly che projac-
-
ti,t-n. :5 hiTh.
..11 tiighr., are therc, arc.' furthr cl::ins i.t this t.izeo Dr
Barr; EQU: F.:,U:
crcrn:May : s!,er. a olarifitar,Lan?-
ycd' have,' a rec!,Q11.7.1.,P;i',1•
the Franzhise :aes yo4;wer t41:1;4i;:g about. P.it•w-r4;?..-•.'Th:-
•
, • Br'-: :ha; wonli or- 50.1,4;t.; ;t1i•;11.,„7-7
yes
Mrs. ;.1.or-.rit:
.Dn. that Dr,
-14 -7, ' WCITI 1 "0 • q-T• P•
•• •
Gunderson: What was the question?
Mrs. Gcrdon: The dollars recei':ed...revenue from the Capital. Ir;;provenent
sources, which is the franchise fees. I failed to find in the budget the
Same informaticn that I received by way of a tlenorandum of response to...
Of the charges --and this was under analysis No.3-- and I '.:ant to know in
what documents that are furnished to us, as Commissioners, I could find
a summary of dollars that are received by the City that are not in the
budget itself and I find in the budget a S3 million contribution to the
General Fund frcm FPO- franchise dollars...
;ir. Gunderson: That's correct.
Mts. Gordon: ...but I dcn't find any notation anywhere in the budget of the
balance of the information that you relate to us that is on memorandum...on
page 5 of the Memorandum which was dated August 24. entitled Response to the
Budget Projections o; City Management.
Mr. Gunderson: Okay, I understand the memorandum that you are speaking to,
I understand that S3 million that have been transferred this year --or intended
to be transferred this ;ear-- in the budget document,..? think..and that's all
franchise mcnav, what I don't understand is what additionally do you want to
know.
Nis. Gordon: I want to knew where, in what information that I could turn to,
besides the memorandum, could I find an acccunting of the balance of the es-
timated receipts in the franchise...
Mr. Gunderson: In the Capital Improvements Fund, yes, we have a ledger in .
the Capital IWprovements Fund that would show that.
Mrs. Gordon: In the budget.
Gunderson:
in our accounting records.
Gordon: Well, hew would I find it? "'here can Ilook at it
Mr. Gunderson:
Well, I gave it to you only in that memorandum, I don't
think it e:riots in here.
Mrs. Gorden: No, it does nct exist in here and I'm very disturbed about the
fact that I don'knew specif_cally what other dollars, if an; • are being
received and accounted fa.r in the record, some records; because, as I under-
stand the charge to the Manager in the Charter says, number cne, that he
has... u nder F in the Charter. under his charges... of powern and duties.. to
keep the Commission fully advised of the financial condition and needs :f the
City and I dc:l't feel fully advised when I don't know how much moneys are
lying in some accounts that the City has that you know about, but I don't.
Mr. Plummer: Would you be wore specific?
Mrs. Gordon: Indeed I do.
Ir. Plummer: Would you be more specific?
Mrs. Gorden: I want to knew specifically what dollars are in there, balance
of moneys such as the balance...just a moclent...for instance, in Resolution
75-1092, which was passed by this Commission on November 26, 1975, which
allocated $. 75,000 frc'z the Public Parks and Recreaticn Facilities Bond Iunds
for the expaesi..n of Watson Par:,.. 1 cn1y want to know what is the balance
rezoning, I dcn't know where: to lock to find these tali nos, you don't give
them to me here in any way, and I happen to have found . _ _- T. ,. ti: cw :,,h.-::,
it's accurate or not-- that there is "bout $325,000 remaining in that fund,
of course, that is a specifically earmarked fund and I'm not telling you to
transfer ie __^i '
General Fun.I'm r.] i� 7 :J tell you is : d_y.'' _
feel that we, as~Cc.:.mis i.craeee ha'::received t'he-'k . :C: cf.:. counication that we
deed to receive in Order to be able to fully exert the dec_sion...that we are
expected to make, and you know, a balance of almost $4 million of franchise fees
11 nt 4 i T .. .1:. z �� • t u ems, . there va�
`+e"af..L= .•. ... .: aI:_ way', .... � a.."� ..:.CW a.:.i ibis 1� .1C . � a
cher'ge that you had to answer to t scertain and
�", to e a uneasiness
i or't knew if I'm relaying it to you or net but I fees _xtreme=" uneasy about
OCT 07197r
MMM
MMM
MMM
MMM
MMM
MMM
•
a whole ot: -..?nd I'm n.-la i ycu know&
I 6, not savina sayin3 zbaa vr,u 71A7-2. not keoc us informed and
. we don t actu.atly the rl- - resouraes.
Illunderson: The Annual Financial Report...
Mtsi Gordon: I have it here, and I...at the end of next year and 'nal
Itito the viddle of the llowing year It11 receive it but I want to know
told.
Mt& Gunderaon: give you an Annual Financial Retort as often as
'would like.
Mrs. God-n: What other moneys are in aoun hatan....that you hava,
Acce3s to the :information that don't, thot we would like to know and
have now in makin3 deter=ina:ioas that we have to ma'ke row?
Mr: Gunderscn: 'Lc you want me t respcne. in terms of what moneVs te
are.&.?
Mrs,. Gcrdon: In 5:-2r.e.rrilities , because A.-ou cant giv e me Lteci it gUres&
'fr'.'.C-un-1.e---tot •-l'i" •T•cOuld 'not, ' ••' : •-:'•:'-' ''',.:-.,'-:-.;:',1,-;'''''''"'-':":
..„-,---,:MrS. • t'...:66:on ; ii.1-i..11.ce , a it "mor&,- thtl''what,-,1-..-1,USt'' Mentioned? .'-.."-.'-''Are',-.,Ither.0,; ".
others ? - . -. - •• ..:..: , -. . , : . ., , :, .. , ..., ,.... ., ,,,. „ . , , .: . : „ ......_..,,,„•:..,:.,,:,••. ,
...... .- . . , . . „ ..... ,,. „... , :,...•••,:.-1!..„..,, ..
• . , . ,.. ...., . • ,_ _ • .....,....„..,,,, • .
. ••--Mti Gundersont' ' ater.-talit,'3' aob.T.t. tJn2tructio-a- lun,ls that:- havc -balancs -
• : ..-ift them and I think' wg.?. have reportedon thoao-'period-',oallyt..'w&haVeHr.::
.,.,..„..
•.' ported .c..a....ahat wou'id.be tl---,-o-11',- -1-,,,,,. that 1 '--(2.- 0-- -1-,,,-,•ea;,,,r,-,•v,ov1"1. b,,,,
tlieCa'?"ital-I':provc..:r.e.tat.'s 7"2.nd„ -'' -,.: ;•:.-•":;,:',...:",,,...,, •
. . . . - - - • • . - -• . . . ,,,,„. H • • • -
_ . .
o -..ft ''....his."articula"-:',..acOunt• 7,,it.-",u 1.--'---1.----, ,",i-.'"n-. •
„.:nly to refer to, If. dov't havo.
you made a sta...t.aent that hun,c.72-ed zind liy
no.cc>ont., you cc-7z t 1:4.1ctw
utn • .;$ Aasn La,_ %ou,
Mrs. GlIrc'on: W,.:11, •no, I was ju:„.t. tha: ts a for instance. -,D W47.5
thro.. is a ,:urrenc halanoz! CZ -..buut 325.
Mr. Plumr.,,r: racn, what It:: tyin te say
Gordon: 1 dc:n't '1,--1.cw ,4hac happen,.-,X, -to -t'ne -hur47.76 andi"...'"some,,.„
,.., :.
ciollar d.:_tferena, thouLh.,-
Mr. : S
ousat-„:,
M-s. Gprdo.a: .',f,., I',,T1 just, ta:Lk.-4.ng, ppocif-,Lcally: tc thisoti47,...,;oi.U"..740r;": .. .
,..:- , .
Vr.f.--trc, ate .1.,,t.s c E Otil,?...rs' I (Inn' t have. Zr-,f,r4:177S Z.C.
!4.;-4 Pl......t-v.et Weil; 7:!.ese, -'..-11S...t V.::: try irig to till,: 7:::'.4;..t0',-: MUth d y.01; ;',....4.1
t1.-.,,e :ranche 7.•-a::: ,,&-o,.:'.':-,h :',.n 75?.:he totel '4=6ent Of monity ?ai,.:.1 ItO thei Clty
tne
.
4 z.1'.o.44-1j, . if vu c1 wishycu c
5.:±"Y•2., :
4., „ 245
- • • •• • e, • - .•
: . • , •,
•11"' ;.;:`.-.t 3 t cuUb is .;:t•
" • V •:f
• x ••4•.' 4• • s• . -• , .
.. • . . .•.-
,,naecoun-tea 7-- 1-
- ,
;•. ••• ••
• - C 1C47 7
. .
r
'luhmet: No, no: J.L. didn't say it was unaccounted for, I sat there
is a discrepancy in the figures.
Mfg. Gordon: What's cone out of this today has left Me L=t don't know how
Yeti gentlemen feel-- very uneasy, I feel disturbed about the fact that there
ate differences of figures that have been banged around here for I don't know
how Many hours, 511, hours, and I don't think any of us running our own businesses
Would want to run our businesses with this much discretion in totals and...
l don't like the word the shell game, I really dont' like that, but I certain-
ly don't like acccrodations with figures. Shell game, I don't like it, but I
also don't like to see figures accc odated t0 fit a particular pattern that is
looked for and I feel that i:: this budget that we received as.. .Mr. urassie,
you had given it to us With alternate -.es for us to decide, you never gave us
an alternative whatsoever cn the one we are even discussing today, which was
the fact that Dr. Barry just made and you heard what he said. And I think
that you, as the Manager, you are supposed to keep us informed, we are supposed
to make decisions based upon complete knowledge which you haven't given us. You
have given us what you wanted to give us but not the whole picture,
Mr. Plummer: Well, are you getting ready to take a break.
Mayor Ferre: Yes, because it's 1:30 PM and I think it's time for us to take
a break.
Mr, Plummer: Mr. Mayor, lust before we take that break, at the risk of being
criticized once again...Mr, Mayor, 1 have put on this record in previous
meetings that I feel that this one burning issue of the Retort, in my estima-
tion, only addressed one problem of a darn complex: budget, and I thine: that
this Commission is auto -bound to explore an entire budget not just one ques-
tion. I have put o:1 the record at previous meetings other areas of concern of
which I as an individual have. Mr. Mayor, I am going to toll you...
Mayor Petra: I should have believed you when I saw you cn television last
night saying that this was zoir.g to be an a_l-da:, affair. You cue prepared
for that, right?
ir. Plummer: Mr. Mayor, I always come prepared, so I'm just stating for the
record, Mr. Mayor, there are other areas of concern from this one individual
unrelated to the Report.
Mrs. Gordon: Yes, and I want to put something else cn the record unrelated to
H.the ?.etic '.. and chat s_.:at._o: _..__ the City :tool' ._.._ - S.?i in
fact the Federal Government reanalyzed our financial position and whether they
would then permit CETA funds to be used in the manner you have recommended. I
think that if thy ha,i the -zt=1 cicture.. 1.^.Cl'.. _.:j ..:e .. .. -.'s __.a ha:'e
ceived and are on deposit from the franchise _end the might not to along with
what you and hopin; they would go along with. There a'"-.'. a couple of .'..a.:,?s in
point on that, to be specifiz, there are cities which have used CETA funds for
public safety ar.d these f'.inds...and then taken those funds for building
golf courses, which is not...we ..re not going to build a golf course, but
they have :.e:.n st : c d a r: _. =. parently even a letter =c' e...•.•.er_ «rcr e ter' re-
- L n
ment of Labor is not enough. Hartford, Connecticut had such a letter and that
City was ordered in and they were told that CETA was improper and they are
:IOW in court. Now, quite possibly this could ultimately 0e what would happen
if in fact those ?eople who you did layoff and then said - okay, now acme on
back on hoard with CETA, certainly found they didn't have CETA to depend on.
Mayor Fer: r : All right, ana-: thing else? .. Any other statements into the record
at this time? Could we come- back quickly, say in half an hour? Well, half an
hour break.
(Sr:CRT RECESS)
'_mayor Perre: Was Mrs. Gordon advised that we are in session now?
Mr. Grassier .es, Sir, her office was called. She apparently has gone Out
for 1un_h.
Manor Ferre; Well, then we can proceed then, we said we'd be back by 1:05 PM
and it's 1;25 PM, 1 thing this is as reasonable.. .Do you know Where Rose is?
Mr. Gr :ssie, is there anvthine else you want to tell this { C^._t' •issicn? .^-.•I•
is there ar.°; zerthr ?zcuse_ce?,,Does an}one want to matte any cemeeento7
OCT07197{
1
•
„:.!,..4tot,..Fetta! Nr. Plum, yo.0 'anted tc' ask scr.e qioas so redognite
- - .
ou
thq frr e 7,1r-n,Pc O' -.
- -5 L. .1 _ _ L
PlUert Yr. Mao' an area of c7mcarn that T have had,- And'that COncern
...::tittitinues to (...tow heause the to5i. continues to grOW, is in thia area of
fi-gbenefits. It bother::: me, Mr.Mayor. that as of this point 1 haVe not
t:ord c c.:!nern from anyone about frinze • fits, Mr, Mayor, I
:•:.•11A-Ve --and here a.n-2.in, iYzri sure these fi.qures • s6:lewhat disputed, as
.-,-•bthers - ntt 1 ha72 to go; as the panel .7nid. On the furcs precnted
to a analysis, that Mr. Yayor, Tacif, the fringe 17,aaa rn
'.1'.01.1Oe and Fire ha..; .1"tcn last of Ai7 payt.,.1, to 4P:.; of payroll.
GzA h :1.„one T don't hav-:, las: var's - but this
i 25.40, Y.cw, to tte in dollars that ropresen.:o r.he fr ?ackse for both
▪ of a few c.:ollarl; shv of S:C.; anJ it .7,:nc,,,rns Yr, •
:hat ::,IntInur to :7,row anj nobody seems c.:,Ace:ned
'-':--Htectause I'm sQrry to d-Lzagree with Mr. PnmL ovea tho:lzh his ccm=entI nc:t
directiM to this particular portion of bud3et-- this, in my eltion
• fact is the 1;yndro1e in th.i_s area. 'Yr. Yayrn.. a private buiness
nt-‘t in sdrvive .vi: fTayrolt in a fr!..ne and
;41e.-Fs oi,,:est,..7:,n 1-us :o ,.!f you, 7. fou4:-.t a
tir la;: year e_aci, of ext-,,ndin',..; Cne fr= 2(1 year:i t6 35
•:• -. and upoo, si.2 it would t!.-ke e.u.ifier t:o pay. I
„....-Lteel that T. 7ore so lar.,:t dioffit!ult tn paY
faz- lo.st year hns fa:t become true tha: tha
up otvi,:r. therra a lot of and the
I th-:.:11., nns-.40.t tht.
why I av no: 1,.t:ari a --:n.7..ca of
mr.• Grwle: 7 thlnk rih: yelr,'Co7=17.171cnr_znd• yo,v, •
▪ nnw, it is•a major corx.urn. I think you .knc
c7_E:ts -yrar. As ycu als,n, it is
tb ras.:;17, w.ith Thc:r7.! arec
w•4ons i7.pb„rt,:nt re717ou is. that th.7rc r. ple
in ocher '-ords, they hey&
you 7,'u,r,:w, n,Lty h-ive nnd they have a
Ob-71.7,u7-;ly, whAt,v,T‘r
and crainyn7nnct be addresta unilatral?y th.,2 t:
v,_r! City trvF, and I .!irk that it .1,3
13e..'abolely-neciary for t.„-; up quc.stir:•n
C.on't cur 7,7'cb1,:4r::; will •3717:1p.ly an2 4;otFe. •
thenf..H..T..1..f.ldrtacl you to ,;.ay that the A27.11711sttn:.:
1S workinT, ..t.L,•;art.j.s t-$61ution? 1 t has to te-
•mean, the e :thar2.ht to %oize_their.opir,ions and 'to .yoice
cz'rL13 t",-,e-,Ad::inist:Atin.. • . •'.' • -. • . •
'are 1.,:orki:I's•-•on-a....-set:Hbf..?-r-:-)n64a1.s'
• . • . . . • , . -
. ., • . . • • . •-• • ••-- • • .
. •
•
. . . . ..„ . . . . .
. . .
• yOu doing. it -With'.-and'ihYTcPnce,rt',,with.--.tha---unlonc.
. .
740 will have to do it with ton once ticclza..le has been vicwed
and ?r..tsun:s,1: y:u :if:re-:._on. in whic.h the
Nr. uf c.a2k
all of :1:e ..7.12- all of the Lue,:s anther thjnz
great :::-.1zu.ra .7.e Is that 1 eo n:t helr fr:m A.iministration
with elle r4isl-q..s. the rillap to of areas oZ
I wc,.12. f.or tz. c=Tnent on that.
Mr. I c you 1nv,T, what the c„,nstraints
egard.. .11:1f,tisral revenues on ch-ls =s well a'- Al ocher cicia-3
71ora..1a.
Mr. not rrpeal,i_1;; to t1-..e 22.1:age it c.ppiles tz 24 valcr,..,t1
tnnint a')Dut other 7:. :7..e other is cpipos,:d
of iitwhlch .T.ake a 1it;i c ver- WI
aae; you ha,.,e chgt, duril4 che
. •
f:./es in :he iureasez 1.es
so ,forCa
•• i • .
fees in the Marinas, and some of these things that can be done have been done, and
+We;have worked on increasing revenues at such facilities like the Orange Bowl. But
those are relatively minor sources of increase in comparison to the kind of in-
dense if we were to solve our problems lon-run. I remind ycu of a situation that
We are in next year in terns of total revenues in comparison to the last year because
out total revenues are virtually identical to what they were last last whereas our
costs are going up by $7.5 million, considering only salary: increases and pension
contributions, only those two things..$7.5 million. :hat I'm saying is, yes, there
is a built-in pressure, a problem, which cannot be solved in my estimation from the
sources of revenue, ..simply by raising revenues, from the sources of revenue that
are available to us now. Now, if the State Leeislature were to make available to
us additional sources of revenue a•;ai1_bie to us --and that really is the only sig-
nificant way in winch we could get them, we'd have a different picture., but it's
not available to us at this point.
Mt. Plummer: Mr. Grassie, I'm aware of what we have done in the past year, at your
suggestion and rightfully so, to increase revenuers, but thia is the old line get-
ting the same people over and over again. The thing that maybe I'm really saying
is -has the Ad.'..I.:.istraticn thoroughly examined the spectrum to see it they could
discover new areas cf revenue for the City other than the ad valorem.
Mr. Grassie: In our analysis of potential revenue sources, we've come up with two
kinds of revenues which we've locked at iu some detail. The first is the kind of
revenue which prevails in ccr+mueities in other parts of the country.. probably
the simplest exa::ple is an income tax, new I think you know what the problem with
that is in Florida.
Mr. Plummer: Well, that's rce within the purview of this City, I'm talking about
what's in the purview of this City to authorize or not authorize.
Mr. Gr?ssia: As I told ycu there are c,nly two kinds cf revenues that we have looked
at. Basically, the kinds of revenues that are used by other cities for which we have
mostly ccnstituticn cl lit^.._t aticn3 that we can't get around and the second source is
more o: an enterprise sou";ce of revenue which does not proreise a great deal of :long
but could premise some ,....ties. ,or example, Father Gibson brcueht up a questicn
just in the last ccuple of neurs which falls it this cat�gor,, e y of seeing whether er
not some additional revenue:: can be saimed from :he marinas through private: opera-
tion and, you know, these things are possible but you are talking about a few hun•
-
dred thousand dollars when you consider those sources which help but will r.ot by
•ther.selvea under an, circumstances solve the problem.
Mr. Plummer: Do ycu want to comment on that?
Mrs. Gordon: Sere I want, on the marinas...
Rev. Gibson: No, no, I went to raise another question..
Mr. Plummer: And I have other question:,, but I'll be happy to wait.
Rev. Gibson: Ckay, before you raise Lr.en, Mr. Mayor, I would think that
not trying to explore revenues or means ans of revenues.. I would hope that we deal with
the Z s• hefora us. The issue 'fore us tct
5 S .:@ e �.+ for wnich we eTp_ ,'ems a :�.. of L.e.._ le .c.:7 te
determine whether or not there was enough monies available ...to use the Manager's
words respectfully and cheerfully, if he was found wrong he would be embarrassed
but he would gladly pursue them. Now, I would hope he would stick with that, end
T want to talk about the Marinas, I want to talk about the see. e n_, .. T ove.. a ^.. T
ir. ord .r? .. , = want to make a motion....
we
are
Me ?liner: Father, excu:,e me, it was my understanding that the panel and Dr. Barry
end every one had finished the questicn raised by the panel and i only went into this
as ycu will recall after r thought that was concluded. If you or scmecne else has
other questices relating, to that I'll withhold.
Rev. Gibson: NJ, nc, J.L., here is what I'm saying, I'm saying that when we start
going around looking for tone: we have not addressed the issue for which we eplcyed
these men. These hen have already given us an answer, these men have given us a
professional answer either what they said is true or what the Manager said is true,
Theodore Gibson ;:lieves... I' m the maker of the metier., _ keo:J, I advocated the
policy go get outside people to acme `ell us what is. Theodore Gipson believes that
the issue has been addressed aed I thin.h, , to my satisfacticn, and unless I hear to
r.ae eee,tr''`r; a, Mayer, as _ yzeer `
pre .. e, T .••e mo:_oa .a; no; a sin;le
cwploy_e, yas r co=ehded by tihe :`tanager, bedismissed, t.7ae' a lrct�0i1.
w
51
OCT 0 7 1977
•
•
Father 7...,,:e..e.re•in A
wbe unfaitr to ecyro.,f.7.,l 7nftnpd rc7cc,u„,.itt hlrroAnIf.,,.'•.'..•:.!.
1ngor,_.-I....:-i..,...:;n,.r'
..7t1,•,,.4,,a4an1t',nAth1n"i..,e,Ar !...'rindly_ttOugh:::, .
around hete ,,this is a rathet,Still,:tot-L-ssl,f.,,n.,--eri,,,.-..ie 'can ,f.ut.dtle,n...9.-AisduSAin,,7,
this thinz cpenly so I ask :Oil tii, • .:'.,'''''..',',. H, •.H:.;,, ' ,. .. . _ , ..,,,.. _, .. .,,,.
.,.. , .•.. .. ..
Yr Pluttaert t relinoyalsh•the
. , . ,,,, ,•.,,, __..„-...„-,,,,,H,„„;...;,,,.-.,:;•-•:. • ,
• ,• 4 ....„.,•,........,,,;„
• . „ , .,,',..', ..,,,.. .., '-• -,•,,,,., . •
• ...... • ,.,••••:-_,.,,,,,,,,,., ,,,
Mayor r'erret All ri,tht, CnrIA Under thst:circutiStanc'e..411 O;nit_
Giboon for _s motion. is' there a setfili1:totheO,f.1.6h,,,,: '-:!'=4',-.,:,,,•:-F-=:.-...,:::
... . •,.. :•,:-.:.,:,,,, • ','.,,:, •,..,:-,,,,,',"•,,,..,,
. •, • ,, .,-.-,.,-.,;',..,--.
, •-• • - . _
Mrs, GOrd..7n: Itli secnd.
l''' •'',.:
'•:.,,r,.1
. .
Yayor Fe -ore: Li; tIlere furr'ner disuns:Aon?
,...,_... • , ,,,,._ ....
P.
Mr, P1u7r.er: Yes. 51r. Mr. Matater; to y01:1 'frotl. f11O..n 1..,ant':'an'aniSt,ir ilnl., o,Mt.
Gary, alfd let r,.(f. tell_
ha.antlintghepeosp:-)1.,,:. 'Mre. I a:t;k th-e quesf tiecnmi,. nit tb'sno:1::C'.:Ided and•I°11b
.ocot 11 inutlateer apun
. dttlni;
117 question j YO".1. i'c',.1 have heatd tha reSnits of
the pane, i7' I'n not .,..:„..,%:akn vour eillot,cs in t'ne 7,aner --2:.:irm t"...-..n.c. the oanal 1,3
,,11.f.oh .. not net.,.si:,,te, 1.,.-yJffs in thLs
1,.-,c:J.:,.. y-.7,..or, ...;h1ch in 7:17.Ct i3 13f...1 do,;;:ea po,i,i!.:,_.,:fn -..•., .f.rnou.....,2,1 in ti'.ii i.:.,7.-t
chat it ...;o%; o.•:,nd,-,to-y, A i.,.ry s,..ml.,:: cy...•.::::,t1rr, r:,-.-,,.; comes to you, ....'.r. Graz.i.e, ba3,_Id
on all the c..',:idcn-..:,.,. tht ..:-.)u hav,-.1 71,:far..i, your .7.m-',.n-_ in t...r,.e 27-17),?r...is -.!..t your
tIla yo.ar 17,i77€,-7 th,l.t•if yo,U f.,,: do not 1:2yeff crl, -
ployees 77 -T:i...i st,c,,. horracted.o.thnt -,!e. '4:111 thls Tlar 7,1-,,,!. in a defic.it or no
Yr. Grcssie: •If.you do,not•lay off .,t,O•loy.-.:-f.:111 'aliSolury end it,'deficit-.
*---at I,zaid•thz.--.t ...,::.ts quet..ad in the p:,-.).ert:hat,jt'chttld get ''oy
laying off h'.!_o.,..,,s,,byrig'..c no'4,...,.e do. not hr-.v.!. to lay riff
We can f1r1:1 tho 7..k..2.y.:U -'f..--,,..'::::16t-ol.:.:, t1-7.et throu1.4h y,Lar. • . .
„ • . .. . . ,
Mr.. 11a.ar: ou.,,•y,,i, 1,,,,., If:r.4...,.7st:f.nd •
mr.. Gr,,':,:ss.!,at !,:holt•ilt:. :.-,.._„....yins .Ls .t1...ar..y,..1 n-:..,. -.tot wi.ng't,J.ba,:e enOUh:f.nsnr.ly:t0',
. „...„. .• .
fce.7a1;to thr,.... f.;,-$..t tihat y,.,u,.,.-•2.et. ...o':-...,:.iopt ,1..1",111.11,._. .,4!.:p:,7:...t.icric,,H y0;4.,;14'Ve''.:
got.to h.,..-.'w- .......2.,..-,Ui,..!:.;..7•6n.,.:2Y. ,%.,',,..; Slc f.-.1e- t7O.r,of,:,-!..,h .1,-cn of. t'o,..-ys,,,:.t..,:: H' ' •• '''•;',,-'''HH',.H
.., . ,,.,•„,....„,..
c:,',-,-o•---lind,tf'1,,-,s,t5.,.1,,. "Otfi
.,...h.2 ettou?...,lcur
, .. • ,...., ,..., , ...,.....,..„,,,,..,.., ,,,...,,,, - ', 0. , , , , .,,,, ,.,
. ,, .. , .,„ . „. ' . ,`, • ' , , , -,'. .. ,'. ,- ' :, • " .• '. ' . • , " ' , ' ".
Mr. Cary'. ny .CZY.7.::•.:2:::,S ,V-1"":.! t1"1 w.i-4'•:1M. 1 ,r_1"4,4•,Cfi. ',Aol.nar,,.1_',,,,,,,,,,„
Hr. "1:1t
, • .
Mrs. dordcn: Mr. nayor,nrqyouruf....,• - -
Y...,...,Pl=mer*, • '.4..y.,clues,'ol;,-;:n bert
Mrs.-,Corcon:
is a docutien't f.nt:fillar.l.iit*n? •
•„
Mr. G:aa,;ia.:
Core.on: D1.4 fr..; 74,7; Vci,C)1; ?
Yr. Gras5-Lil:
Cor.CJn; 1 vcu ;o
-.n. arnor Coromissit1.7113;'---e
:47$, 0.:::&7.17.: Th:..,.t's new, to ',,,I.e. To you itir,-, nO'`,'..,7,Jaw.f'1,41:,-iou,',,tl..1.4t to
.
c.„7-47.r,„-:,:ii3i'..-:-,1 ...o corret 1t? C=issio1e."-'s, the'l: is, 4,-J1 :701-i13 7,IY
hu_dred .•,117,,.,,,,14,...c. :a4:7.3,,.
mr, 7;=Iu4:;74t•.'.;:
Mr, ;
-.the:••••,n.P.534'
.•
- •
,,.;r. urd ,hcfme: :77
'
Mrs, Gordon: I'm going to say how I felt when I seconded the motion Father Gib-
son trade. I seconded the motion because I feel credibility is at stake here today
anti t at not sure that the Credibility of all parties has not been daaaged. And that
includes the City Commission, and the Xanaaer, and everyone else and...particuiarly,
isti not referring to those persons who were called in and they did not have really
a hell of a lot of tilde to do a lot of work but I do believe that at this point in
time we do not have enough information to go C11 at least II don't feel I navel tc do
the layoffs you recommended. Furthermlore, I do not believe that we will then be able
to fund those positions that you are recommending with those dollars from CETA, I
don't believe that is a possibility that ultimately is gong to be used. Ali these
things combined to ::,e make it...ma-,e my position clear as to my seccnding the motion.
When we finish with this, I would then like to make a motion which would direct the
Manager to engage professional counsel to go into the entire budgeting ?recess as
it stands before us because I think it is a very Contused si_eation that we are in
now and we cannot deal with it, not rightly so at this point in tine. So at this
point in time I'm going to go along with the motion as before us.
Mayor Ferre: Further comments.
P1:1..z .e:: Let tie gather r: comments, if you will, for a 1inute. Father your
motion only speaks to the lay offs, it does not speak to this b'ldget in general.
Father Gibson: _o+.. see, we made a commitment to the public. Mr. Grassie said,
very glibly, sag, I preach.. you understand now, I know how it works... a nd T learned
to listen to these Guys, that's why ever so often I invite people to come preach
for me so that I :an get a chance to listen to him, and I listened to him attentive-
l_:, he said, if it can be show=, and it is there, I will be embarrassed but I would
not wind .:.y emb __ 1._.saent, I would gladly do it. So I took him at his word and
note..we are paying good money, good mio•ney to two or four men out there and these
union men are paid good honey. Dr. Tarry, I ;:ant to thank you, you've been able
to be rather poised and you men have been so professional, and for us to do other
than when I have the motion for it, would be to ignore all of just common decency
and _ Hope that we will proceed post haste and in passing the motion that :.here
will be no puss; footin about it and no...'you know — simple.
si-lple.
Grassi`: Comment, Mr. Mayor?
:mayor Ferre:
Sure.
Mr. Grassier Just to wake sure that Father Gibson understands and all of the
City Cem issi: r. understands..the burden of what we were trying to show you this
orning, beca.+4.a in fact, no new money has been found, in :act there is $I.;
.zillion which cnn be taken from places they are now allccatcd in the budget and
used for a different pu.rpo,e if you are willing to accept the policy changes that
those transfers would imply. There is no news money. In fact, there is A a-
- no -e�cnstr-
ticri that we were wrong. There is simply a suggestion that if ::,u adopt the new
rule and change th•t r.11es of the t_'ame then in fact you'll come up with a different
answer. And basically what _ was saying to the news media before i„
of course
retrains true, that if you do c':anae che rules of the game you d l:. have a nnewans.Jer. In "y estimation, a verydetrimental answer for the City but that's your
judgment to mace.
Mr. Plummer: MT. Maier, let we make a comment prior to ':ctth . One of the things
which I think is very fcciheartedl' about all of this is the fact that tha City
Manager has the aur.hcricy by Charter to terminate based upon provision that at
says that we cannot end ir. a deficit. He o::eercise" that auth:;rity last year in eli-
minating 130 vacancies; what I'm saving is he didn't have .:o coCOM2 before this Com-
mission to eliminate the ':acanzies. And I'm sure t et no City Mana'eer
it's Joe Grassie or whoever is sitting in that seat--- please don't misconstrue
that statement, is gei'g co protect himself that he is no: going to and in a deficit.
Mr. .'layer, I made d co'mment last year at these hearings and I : s ed the Manager point
blank, what did he feel was :he efficiently of the work force. And I don't remember
e:•:actly but the answer was either 50% or 65'. 17 fortunate _', I have seen no effort
to up that percent •'_e. I fell that a reasonable way or dain.7, thin25 is that you
develop your efficiency ff :'st and predicated upon that will answer ycur questions
much better than trying co juggle figures in this bock, which we are actually trying
to do today. _ teeall to your midi that :he four panelists made one comment, that
they did not address the comment whether or not the employees ware needed or not need -
Only did they address -was the none' there for pay for selary. I'm very much
opposed to :he fundieg -as outline: by the Manager- for CETA, but I'm also opposed
to iosin; $1.S n,2.li:r. Federal dollars. ''.hat I'm r_ 1iy se irg Mr, Mayor is I'm in
the horns of dilemma,
OCT071977
•
-
Mrs,. Cordon: let ..;:e clarify zhe CHTA,yI an; n2t
Mr, Plummt Well, i-tose, yolt are•loSing it•becnuse if you don't lay thet
off,
you at not oin4 to t i,at $1.607;000,,
m,,, c",oron: Well, that -,;hat it bringn it batto, I think this budget uat.',
desned with that in mind. I really feel that.
Mr. Plumnart Are you .!.adi,.7.nting to ma that you feel that if you don't lay-ot ue
still t th monc.:y or you feel that tt w'az3 ni?..7Pr zvai t..) begin with':
Mrs, Co''.don: No, Sir, I clon't beliet the intntion of the CETA program ett..' in"
tended us or nnyon cis.: to lay-off 2eople nnd them tho8e dO1le,rS4,
That is
Yr. Plummer: That's been questioned,
Mrs. Cordon: Now, the unFi71ed o..=..,itiohs, 70i) tIley should be uSed, C,„7..TA dollarE.
should be used to unfilled posItlons, thatls CEIA money iF all about,
19 e..apl:iy not to firerloye,!. anj ru -hire him, th:lt i3 not
the purpo,,,..e.,
d'•sagree with you. a'Lai-J, I'm lik the p,,inLT,
h,...1Ye Lo 4:71 thac the dc:ument::: that to -to. f:r my
analys until (,)th,,rw.Ie pro':en. A latter from ir
7.e ever: as : thAt the are avz,iLabl. brin4s
that to : lc.conGorti,m, it -4culdn't bu
:'m soyins tc ycsu ivb.a: 1 h..:.ve ".or an'alysis ,
th-ls
Mr. Gorjza: S.:, th...ly do not ha.y.,! the
you 4..C.-• t E..' info rma;„:1 t. tr. e r
other ps_lt into this buc,7,tt, ra, that ,,2nev
be uLuld a;:. be alLotC.1 t.:Ls f,:nde,2 71y cl',IrlLo%
with CIE.f:A do12,2::s th.-„t is it's 1.-:,A.*.„7. ot1.7Ir
arou--d ccunti
Mr. Flu.=e,: 1:t711,-, be a0.17-r.,1.) :you know, but -Is 1, say, udtti 3c,47,-:aone
,;as bc...ae my cp-iniorl 1:Pr)ft
, .'n, — ,-,',1,•,:in,—,n,n
Mr . ';',1t....7,..7,'-: : • „ 1:,..:. , L ',-.1.-.0,...7: -47:.,d en -,:1,,, I '•:,,-; ' <4;o4.ng-!,•-,,, .7-7ote 'Iy.r.''.H..Mr::.„,-'4,1-p-:1-_;:.,..-t,h,,a
bc'ttcm .in. : for•-,7„,•7„:.th.,.1t 1 fel.:•Caat,-t..if...epro.7:)..(4.1...-...,.,'4:.e.:,
doirtlns,..',.....,•::.;1.0,,....,:y.7.,
ency ,InklI-1,- tha:,::. oe you: .1:-,.w..,,,,:•: ,..,,.....,,to-,...n.,.i:f.t.,:er..,..: ffs,:must'.bef,:,,f,„!,-.-.,:.„.
., .... _ -, • —• , ,
N,:...,,.,,-, :.-...:.:Ii t..,-.., ',-Ale!....:.,,.:;:-.,...,..::::'-',.--:..,,-..: '• : -.
, . .
re'.
r:1; Perr:
The ft.,1..:ouin;
cibzo-r.;„ m.).v;?„d its aotlon:
MOTICN.:;0. 77
Upoby Ccr,L;dion:e.rCr
-
---• • •,' •
:H.4.4C4-1.aN
T.'12
••.
-7i
a 10%. ) "•
Iti.!boso
Z. L.
A. F:.=:,-.1
01
.344 ;41-
4n4 7.=1' S;4t,:=7-17, wr.V;teq
r
t • •
•
starts out by saying -the finances of the City of Miami have been caracterized as
being in a state of crisis. Then it goes on to say -in the intervening 5 years
the City has temzorioed and that we've met short-term problems but we have increased
long -tern difficulties and, of course, we have problems. We have additional ex-
penses for employee pensions of $3.6 million that are in this year's budget. We've
got an additional increased ccst of $3 million, excuse me..pensions of $3.6 in
salary..it's almost. a Si million increase. On the other hand, the tax base of this
community has provided less than Si million to meet that almost $7 :million of in-
creased expenses, and in addition, the fact that we are going up to the full 10
mills will give us $1.5 million. Now, ladies and gentlemen, vent simply, how can
you go up Si million in expenses and only to up 82.5 million in revenues and not
have problems? Now, the majority, the vast majority cf the moneys that the City
of Miami spends with a budget of $112 million is for salaries and for pensions and
related matters... / O percent. The fact that our pension has gotten out cf hands
and that our intenc_✓_esor the fringe benefits if you will are up to a point in
Fire and Police. as I understand it, to 48< are just clear indications of the
fact that we are living in very precarious situation as far as fiscal soundness
and responsibility. Now, with regards to the statement that - -
f.,
•
..••••'•• • • •-•••••,• • .
. , , • - . • : . • • •
hai,f.-.0-en-tede--15:thase:f.Our••learried•-genti&:,eti and--16-Pr4..1',a4iand6thet,§.-116re..
.- •
dOnqquestions •the J.ntatrity br-SinCerety6(ah'i o.
in'nature, :"hey ate cc,..Ipticated, they ara estlnates at best;'nSyOu rive
sald.•YoU:nae to res?cnd to thee thIngs, ndin on the figu'res that, people
ou, You orF-]• notr Yc.0 lro neF,nonditit', to S',7rmething,
could onlv r,.-,s1-ft3 in acccr.nan,.- things tat nta to vcu. 7-nay mnv
They may est4mat.-!s of e_Itti-,iat:?s. may bc chan,zin:4. IThe fact r=aln:1, yott cnn':
get ,..1,„-ay ipie haic Caat thi, ci:y d :ry to
all of tha things tit wa are act‘amptia; T'ara's a lot mJra at stae in
than jt a for another ye:1r. 1 have 1,,e,::,r1 vot11-1 on budets fot S years
the proc.!as 'rad past al.,d I think 1 havc
pretty much th,,i same -4ay a..4 most of the tmbers of the cotclision have in the pat.
We have been purtiny. aa,„1 off, nnti lay41;', eff for th,::
Let's Ae: into tile of it, and let's ecc,a yE.‘,1t
this Jtac1 - Ilav2n't gon--f. Into thins:s
thr,:e7,h :L:: Jr „hht
an,,i Corn). Yilt21.1 on a sp,!ofi'ic Lr,
do t-iy aa awf1.11 1,-)t of tiJt.dcne
T, ir 0-....;a721:1, an. n as .„If :jou
cyca to :Look. tinat. 7‘;ny .:71culd the pael-,le cf 11...!..a:11., for
-tha
or tl-ie 120,300 thnt ther-77, yast t,ajority
city of You 1-;y .the pe.y.
near t'ne t: r.:1ntion one ,ici,nr!-„:-.tnt -
area,. is nr,here ccmpcnsnco,51 by tne ::.ax)s• paid wi:_hin that
the''fact • -Y of t'co?„ City of .„‘J.L....:•11,-•:,;s.
of it cc-valcre. ,of in a.ly
much. M,e fact
basu is •!:%n't.
we,v:re the C.Lty iS
the
hith• tocv Yez'ics,'-i.s not
wt. anTt
not. .2e-rman,:si-,c.- I '2er,,n,-."J,Ay• don't
mnr-h to thzat the F.overr'n,:at•Ycnt-HY.'
the to 'Pitie(i7 Isnt.t...Y.iami), it
th=7
Eera."1.Z, -And the point i.s,•tic.at our
feder%1 11.1c fact tnat we ari...1 hf_ghly rated
in Wall 3trea, is .:1.r.,(27Lentl,.-,T,:o,f- the fanc, that it ece,sn': be rnilt ...nuch of
a :,..-ncern ty2e cif
:....17.ets in ak1,1 cr pro4rart.-.- •
Nowi wa•have g.ot co. 1;e2tr. to fnce 70:e c:•at..nOt,
caTino.!- c:ntlnee to -day is:eaafIts of •»77 We cannot o..ntl:we -.!lth all
•
due.respct.,i to epleyees that are retiring, poopl,.., who-. recir
and 45 thov.sr..nd•,.;:o7laars,,..'.10 47 or 43-or - thousand do:;.inr a 76.1a:
salary are ratirin'g at 57 0.7 or CO. OrIn.not Mo do many of
that we as :it:. 17.ectiL.Fe ,zon't t-o.ft.ce
7F.frson:Al I v•-.s very
much :'ti- -4,-olice chief ani fi.ra .Lz 1i11
aaked or not, th.2 .,:f.fic!,aac.y of thI5-., j,,.par:ment3 7-)7„
tlny wcrli :1:i. :hat zt.ates a crisis
fLr I cn't ln fcr Coo
caNe zn the Jervicesn tha cchr,1 1.,now this is an unp:):-y7
stac,lnc h.,: 1 have to _Al ,fhe I feai.l. W'nea ,askeri the
qcn, ne L-aid a. far 23 Le was pcncerr::.i the effncj
of the Sal.it:.t,lc.m '.;e7arcm,a: wutf. not Ma-. 1
chat is to tha :oli :a
The 'act 43, I w4t-n Yat ad ,7oocur w.iih the
Lat ci-
titC nu the :7)..7.1 lina I s,,,e : told %hose yr-. whc
74 ,:-.11":01.0.: in 71 o?iniLn, co ta:c:e a halr:.17, it. 1
thip.14. if dun't di::.:.,r,!ate the .--;,:r1 c i1s 1 sucll .7.11 .:7ry
It rto „..7. .7.re
1r rther, ate u:,:• th.a
yvnt. or tw, of the tit:, and
Is, 2 C. anybl!
ic nest ye,ar,
no a in
s
Nowi i.hat do 1 mean by everybody taking a ,
c haircut? '1 at tithe F'
ha�rcutt Well one «�ot e:ka..Mp e,
we talked about in this commission chamber about the feet that the police 0118 fire
were going to contribute, what was it, 1/% to the fringge,
Mr. Plummer: ----four percent, —
Mayor Ferre: They were going to contribute 4;?
Mr. Plummer: They did in fact contribute 4% for a
.Mayor Ferre: Are they contributing that now?
Mr. Plummer: No. Based upon an actuarial report which says it
that 4% was
Mayor Ferre: I knew. You don't like it, Nobody wants to give up anything, Everybody
wants the other guy to give up. It is like expressways coming through. Yes, I want
the expressway, but you build it in his neighborhood, I don't want it in mine Yeas,
I want a rapid transit station but you build it over there. I don't want it near
me. Everybody wants these things but nobody wants to rive in. I think the point is,
that I think the tire and police,--- ' cu don't want lay-offs, fine. There are other
thins we could talk about. .re negotiated a package, we can't go back on, 5 ---fin.
Then we talk about pension. We haven't negotiated that. That's open. These are the
type of give-and-take situations that I think the administration should be involved
in. I think there are ether alternate solutions to this thing. Fine. I am, perfectly
willing to dig into Watson Island and a lot of other accounts if we have to, to
maintain a balance. '_ut what I am saying, that I i ust cannot vote in a positive way
for somethine which puts all the burden cn one sitee and, with all due respects, to
the fire and police, :ou are welkine away from this thing, the way this thing
is
going, with your full 7 increase, :cur full benefits, without any curtailment of
forces, without any layoffs. That is terrific. 1 congratulate you. I think. you have
done a great job. You have one more victor,: to add up in your name. And I think
that is area:. But we are net solving the problem. That's the way I feel. I happen
to be a mincrit•; of one. But we are not solving the problem.
Now, my last thing is to you MI. Grassie, before 1 vote.
• Mrs. Gordon: Ycu didn't vote yet, Mr. Mayor.
Mayor Ferre: Do _ have the right to speak? You can "wake the motion for closure,
and you can put it to a vote, and you can stop me from speaking. But I. have been
here since 9 o'clock this morning and I think, even you will admit, that I have
hardly spoken all day. And I am entitled before I vote on something like this to
explain my position.
Now, Mr. Grassie, to you sir. I frankly don't think you have handled this whole
process properly. I told you so, and I will tell you publicly on the record. I
don't attribute env malice, I don't want to contribute any conniving or hiding
1with shell :+ es otherwise. will tell you what
of facts or p_r�;: in; around, ,��:'1t.u, or .. � w.�S2. � r1 1
I do think. I do think it is a tactical situation and perhaps I may be partly
to blame. I may hove advised vcu improperly. You end I talked about this whole
process. As a matter of fact 1 :hink I did advise you improperly. I want to =a':
that openly and peblicly that I probably have vou the wrong advice. I think the
way we Should approach this, is just StralghCferward. Headon. -_nd I think there
are areas in here where there might be situations which your estimates have so
often set her`. today. I would have said, look, these are estimates. They are
censer: ati': 'estimates. There right be a million, two :nil' ion or more, ,honey
in here. We don't :hink there is. And here are :he reasons. One, two, three, --
but you can argue that can _et 560 thousand dollars from this fund, and if
you are willing to pay the price, of keeping 200 people off the payroll. But
don't have any illusions that you are goir.o to render the same kind of services.
Noth s° kindservice,i r vo willing to do that.
way you can render the me iC .a of �1 are:�i
But iI you want to do it, these are
_ alternatives. They a''. .lard alternatives,
I think chat we had a�.proached,or if youhad approached, in your message,
the question that way, in May opinion I think it probably would have avoided
' awful let cr turning we have sone through, an^i all the problems '..e have .:a1
to suffer thrcu2h. I hope, as et said in your olios. , statement, that after this
rather tough es: n 1learn, rn that you go ?bout producing
l • ' ^ C�17.^.t: we' all had to a ., --
reasonabl e solutions Io some very complex city probie: s, as you said in your
closing sentence. I would hope :hat even though this commission has in its
11
r ��a
Q C T 0 197
—
e
•
• • . . „ . _
the•--tlajOrit.,-Which st.iett tOIetf.ed.tD
do.-Vt..• -it. hA'73,' MineritY,atd-t•-nO4.4"7•that,--1
ct1d not4,ft aty Way ycqr responsibility. and ytU: 'duty ns the Chief •
n-CulitiStrar to tome 'elcs into,:ati7,?, if t. e'-' eri rastit, if •
n.2ce.snsty, rs n an ad,..7..iniStraie 51Sis, that could 7it up beEcta this.
ctitmlasior.fa dt.Eft.tult days ahead, it it n,.2.72ds to am
cura it Will b,•,.‘ und I sure 1,c,.1 are i!oi:1?. to hav tO defend it, and
...In sut... •.-cu ara tc.; to jn the ?ro.,:ei7.7s. z-m v=2.ry sorry:
I really a.a 7.4377, that %infortunAt:,!1%. dopart-s-lent is
:g.nd theraftra theta to unfortt.InJt inflicatIcn that arr..,. ratini itt natuto.
I want to I dc not r=rd t's.at ns a fc.ctr in my cwn misd, and
it has absolutly tcchin; tt do it, altb ,...nfr.r;mately, it ha?perls to be
the '-;,:ay it ..sc bec.-...1..seactual. fact and thp dcc.'.o-,4raphio makeu2 c- that
particular t77,1t. t say cn thc tr2Cer, tttcartainly I:, evun
it is a mnjr of cn t.o mE!„. it - certainly to o :itrt
(7-•.)irlitn 1 Obvidu:31y you kt•cw
vote :..or r,-..r..ord, is no.
. .
Rau.. Clbscnt I"want to tia's.:-..,ncromen':.. yonsaid, t.r.d I a!%-•-goltic;
to (- tn dy, the
cr r!d.t.f -the
To• What-
1:.-.2.11-';-,•51id;:in1 tO r,...'diAte the
cf 1".1n1";1-1. ns dr:lars,
slid -a doz-.4:-zcni-4 tr7 to-effentnatv
Cne,:c•co:inny is
tr) cf11 the.
•Tho..!
12.?
ycu
t,;)
in C-ity of.
I don'ti 12 0 cot:.L.
all to do is -7.7,o dut
1:1,at zhi3
t.--711.. you Wh-7.t. 7 t'old"-he:r, if thr.,y fill this rocl: with i211,.%ugh
hk!--,7ry, and
wa7-7 it You rU.4urz;itat.... at I 'ste
f thi!cti1c.:t-r:d 1
so sure stt!.on d,,r,,artnt. I w.ln.t.t a r zhe rc.ord.-
1
nffi=atIve all th.2 othr oz
%.'2 need •t-J poliay and.
of !--1113 r:27.2.11y t C '1 - L aq.ay
Loild te do 1 th directo: sayini-r said, iti vi.w r.,,f.uhac
two y..,7:rs. rt say, ,T.Atler I am a woul;Wt
zal. -you
'..f.r."..4.ycr may -I zikd c7mment„ and its arid
L'aat -fecd. the t.,:::.=.%En23
r.r.d I'll it, .t3 t:C int-.!at to be
'The !7,ule w7,s, th:.,t there 'vas in
-:2e say ydu
7 an en17 .1,ne ?arsali's 7rassie 11.i a biz
u) Hi: credi'oi2izy •will the
%,ith Dr. 2arr7, this
Let the or_ly ccacurne-.-i a':.:out, in the fini
J.L. crdL:1ity.
par•an'4 -carc,21.'Df.t.:cas
c.7e.--Iib:.i:44.1-2 of r.ot
-, -cr-'1r;74-1;!..-;7> .far
cgrrect •thepOint..,„t0,70:•tu are ctinert.:44 .4b6;,“;
Ytami..- • • :.• • • • • ,••• •- ••••- ••:
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a e
iSibt tenet that is exactly what the probler is: :ergive be for saying so:
It is not the individual credibility of Doctor so and so, or tananzet so and so;
and ccwmissioner so And so. It is the credibility of the city of Miarai which
is being questioned. We have enough natural enemies. I juzlp up and dcwn about
there editorials, but the fact of the matter is, you knew just as well as I
do, as with Channel 7, and all these pecple that always Chopping you up every
other day,a vicious type of criticism. perscnalized and all that kind of stuff:
But the whole premise of it, basically is that they want to eet rid of the city
of Miami. They editorially do not believe in the viability of the city of Mia i,
and fortunately: the people of Miami have backed us up every time we have gone to
bat. ..e hit the *acme run and they strive out. 3ecause the people of Miami continually
Vote for maintain1:-fig, the police, naintainine the f'.re,---they vote for our bond
issues, they vote for this, they vote for that, no matter what these editorials say.
My point simply being, we have to be very careful not to add any more fuel to the
bonfire which they are unnaturally setting matches to at al ': i times. ,.. 3 . Any time thet fill:
think they have a spark, they will light a .::itch right away. It just doesn't catch
cn and the point i. euess I can try in'g to ;hake, I thine: the credibility of the city
is a very important thing We are unfortunately, its at stake.
Mr. Plummer: I a:ree. Where I disagree Mr. Mayor, there must be a rE whv
. , .aaCn
the charter say the buck stops at this table. The credibility, the final ana lysi
is at this; table. ::ct there, not there, ----it is here. Ckay. I wan to tell you I c r,
live with my vote1„y can h
a and a_:: sure the rest O: ll with yours. _ credibility in the
final analysis, --I have to live the way I vote.
Mayor Ferre: par. Mananger as I understand the vote, you have been instructed by
the majority of triis ccamission that : ea are not to layoff one sinzlc person, *which
Means you will have to find ways within this budget and adjust somehow, EhGW, and I thie r
I would want to give to you the same courtesy that this is not the first time this
has happened by tl,e way. This happened the very first time that L voted on the t -•--
Cr the seccnd time, ----1 forget. I ':ant to tell you that vo';, lust like Mr. ::el ?
in my opinion, the next move -ere is to instruct you sir, to come back, and CG.::e back
with a budget, you see the will of this commission. You core back with a budget,
that is balanced and you can live with. This commission will have to deliberate?.
on it. You m • ha':t to close down par'.:s cr you ...ay have to dip into :;atscn Island
cr do scnetnina ci:;e. 1 don't know. You rya': e to come up with :cur preference as to
what you re_e mend then we will deliberate on it at that point.
Mr. Grassie: A couple cf questions :`r. ':aver. I think it is unrealistic to talk
about a budget under those circumstances which I wculd recommend, but certainly
we will bring back sc': et`li^.'_ to you which ;presumably will be something that ycu
would recommend. L really feel we are at a stage now.really incoi ;, :.e are r a l y a joint
nt
process. I think we aro aoina to have to sit dcwn with the City Commission in
number of budget s_ssi.:ns and ycu are going to have to deal with n SCL7c. of these
questions of f i_ndieg the fat as scree of the members of the commission has expressed
it.If that sort of thing is :here, I think we need tc find it and identify what
we feel is fat. I suggest we set budget hearings for the city cem fission and
simply: get down to work and produce a budget for you.
Mrs. Gordon: Mr. Mayor if ',ou would consider the recommendations that were given
to us b' the consultants as having scr::e validity _ in it, and I think r I
1 ' tv they O.
would• like, we are `,Ding to be sitting with :'..'nangemeat, a -id looking at each her
v t
and listening to the same refrain, I would like to have these consultants present.
If ycu o go along with that,I feel since we have suffered a ,'.^
v:.I^3e1.Ag blew to cur
city's ego, if you want to put it that way. 7 think the cn!v wav it can be healed,
is with the consultation of impartial parties present it the development e this
new budget. 1 ask,if you don't have any: objections.
Mayor Ferre: _ don't have any objections and I will tell you why. And 1 want to
really address myself Rose, to Joe en this so we don't have any misunderstanding.
One wav to interpret this is a lack of confidence in t:'e adninistration and
the process. I don': think that in my opinion, 1 certainly would not ascribe
that view to it. 1 think what it basically amounts to,is we have adversary roles
arcund here, that obviously treated between the representatives cf the e.'T'.pl:vees
and the administration. It is not quite as sieplc as it was before where :Cu _.aid
what we are interested in is t.'e . e4 '`'n... Well, it i t net that Stiay. We arc all
i lte est in he. `i r'i ae s Ti � interested veer ✓are it
': '' �.'-4t n.. Some =e in t^.31.i' � andsome interested
in retirement benefiss, some in pension, weges, wcr'.- ice coed _bens, erns nt tee ees,
building up the fiscal base of the city, cenv_nt'on center, federal government, ehie
end that, So I think since we are getting into these more complex eeou ds, I think , e
o bud.snen-ty:pe of a process, I think is probe'e-y a healthy erocadure to have.
OCT 071977
4
i 12Yii'lc 9' ilt., '^io wh thet YrFc^ lsrsfr:'�1� ]aC'
.}
11k `to •."i4't `+`t�titcl 1i.' tt+'�lltc;:.�'� .s�.'.:C?, tit ..,
we oti.ght'to-tbiak about,
Mrs, : t:''Ct '1: I dra t t t'hiitk tl' tiS is :ill i::1='`•
hu'. �i?+=='1 :tc tv ?T ci j`j� t.•nis til.'.iiY' Ccop l_ate.�
..3 within,� day,
Ma o f 'r"etti? c ,tl I L ei:,'.,
{ oY J Ci1C7uannd ({:q.t.cIts :
nrs, Cordon:;lCl L� nDie tO CLtI :s .Ue
%'3t: 1. don't.
t:l..i::. t;.�1= rG can Lcl .3 Y;f Lunt: ? ;,�' ...,.._�' `
TT //fiYn} • .. .i _ .'x + .�.K'i t _:-. �Ciet-iP �2.thi:r C.r i't't: _tha t.
po•ZI.LI .i 4.V�. L L•./.... .. L ._ .r✓ + .. , ✓ f'� Y5 i .. :~f .L h�
'• L4..) "v i.. thnt . C.. ��: L
do t:i is t)i. L
theo. in
. VA w:ant %.
-` i .i.. :] t.: .. ..l 1= •t• ._i.. tti.it1 w.•.ri .`. >*,_ 'a7 �,
U t; �..• G, :L .'r; a �' i't'` t'.O' i i,:t c
.:o' ..,v. rLa"h,l...._.:..d ... 'a t C._
:Ct..i t.,...0 :C ..1." ,
ra
r•. :.,n i.:. .,.: n 7 i . Ll:...,_ ... :.1 ..,y_ '-_.,...-..di.
..:- sit .i#Y„.. a _tll lvls2
ti t--:._ i' Ut" t.::: i'v Yo ut'. 4.-.11 ^a;:1
y U2 y ,.
.• A£:>. 1 uill t :. . t. :.ixl
1..r'•,.,,-a t.t 7„ .f' ,,C t, r. J'.i
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�j,..L''f r'-ic,u u:ad`" j:Si ...:iio . •1..
1.at v't?
n...p rl., :Lr.. c _ all t:' :L .l t ',
Lt. .Y. +l. :Ce:st'_1'i..`s ..'::..1u:.1 �.::i.
'.er:: r :our r*:O;ri*. r don't "o'...
Gordon: ?> it r t717.
«, '.i are: t;t::T,t, 4.« arr.! (1: :'ts
:%4e ::r' all x;t. ,.3 tr ",o ttk2'.
:i3;•l:L, orr n :
r. 1.� it •*. ,Mr k,.`
O':11G that we at i 1.
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'Jest S..JCu. e'd ;e '1 two
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•
lire Folioioifig Motion was i iffodttoec bt Cor iiss onet Gbfddnie.
noted. --its adoption:
MOTION 77-772
A MOTION EXPRESSING TiiE INTENT OF THE CITY COn;•ttSSiOti
T'dAT THE BUDGET ADVISORY PANEL, CONSISTING OF:
HARVEY HENDRICK ON, PhD., CPA, TRVING FFANTL, PhD.
CPA, JOHN RE•S i.NGICN, PhD., AND WILLIAM BELCH, PhD.
BE ENGEGED TO WORK WITH THE CITY CO ISSICN AND THE
CITY ADMINISTRATION TO FURTHER REANALYZE AND REDEVELOP
THE 1977-1978 BUDGET ESTIMATE
Upon being seconded by Ccissioner Gibson, the motion was passed
and adopted by the following vote:
AYES: Mrs. Gordon, Rev. Gibson and Yr. Reboso.
NOES: '.ir.Plu> -er and Mayor Ferree
ABSENT: None.
Rev. Gibson: Mr. Mayor I want to make a further ccm ent, I hope that when these
Wien are trying to assemble this material so that they could intelligentiv, that
what I heard rrori these Sled, will not prevail. I hope it is understood, that when
we the cemmissicn, deputize people to do things, that this staff understands. It
angers me to have these min say, you couldn't get :he material, you couldn't
get the information .3o you could properly • nalyze and properly synthesize. That's
inexcusable .
Mrs. Gordon: CCu'Id :Cu gentlemen, while we are still in session, give us some
idea of ::he e the c 's t will be.
Mayor Ferrer After Feu voted?
Mrs. Gorden: I voted ves,----i3 it funny, Maurice? That was part of -the Conversation
I had before. In principle this i the 'action anyway.
Unidentified: Cemmissicner Gordon, 1 would think that we would be serving in a
different ca?az .t. new than we were then. We were serving as ci'i_"".bere of a
special Co-1-Lesion, where we weighing through evidence frcrj two sides, and
;',y personal view is, that if we are eoing to do this, I would like to work
on team basis at d different kind :ffee basis. I would assume a lower Lee
basis, but I would like to discuss that with Commissioner Plummer, because I.
think he has a better feeling for hcw we work and what kind of process we
go through.
Mrs. Gorden: I then trove that the team consult with Cctraissiener Plummer end
that the amount of the fee be established and that be brought to this cot fission
for cur next cccziission meeting which is next 'reek, for ratif:.lati:;n.
The following :notion was introduced by Coe:missioner Gordon, who
moved its adoption:
MOTION NO. 77-773
A MOTION AVT Cs'.=Z_:;G AND .DIR=CTI:;G CC?" i_aa.:• ; ER J.L. ?LL^.•n, R, JR. TO
NECOTIATE WITH THE MEMBERS OF 1'HE BUDGET ADVISORY PANEL TO ESTABLISH
THE FEES AND N :NBER CF MEMBERS TO SUCH P Y,EL TO ASSIST THE CITY IN
THr DRAFTING CF THP NPW BUDGET ?RCPGSAL AND TO COME BACK TO THE COM-
MISSION FOR FCRNAL RATIFIC TI ':; AT THE NEXT CIIY CONMISSiON MEETING
Upon being seconded by Cor missicner Gibson, the ttocicn was pas4
an4 0.opeed by Lh. following voeee:
AYES;Mrs. Ge don, Rev, Gltispn, 1r, Repose^ and Mayer
NOES: Mr, Plummer,
•j iT:
MCC
OCT 071977
H. i ,
, ti
of it `»:k)'.:
C'iitei o y'yt i;a` • C. y t:ai
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a
C to:al biicixe r s
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hark We :re L _
r z 3: i.:ai . `.:t -� T"f_if.•J a t .i" ti1u� ie w.3 i t; i'.., z .S L` ''. L Vote
r:c 1•Y. lam!. LY•ti "' 2 r v .. +' t s �.�
seMe:.::th ti'Ittit z,le ^ _ S tz:m ent E( .1_3' 1;7 [i3a. ,m.emaia tic_,
i2.C€ ttdu can 7,et,too `ic'rLit' ,,eople • on. CC t::'' t, .:( u10. u:a my Op—i lion - r'.. ..
`_ at We Al: . .`.oz• i- .'�.." r ri for "e, that t: -o .^.'f th o : i...^ Cti?'.l1'' 1.;< -
++ y• .--) ♦-`_. :5 od i TheMotion• r. .e �,� --sC 1 1. CC'1.'.r,
Lt.`. 1: +C1 t C. .:L`. +. 41^ Jii:�.] i.t..'-i. :__ RCC 'i E.. :�'r L�.^,C C.'.1 } 4.1 :.. .'�S r
to 't. ^!. `:.'.::-wt. That ".Jafor
i�t a �si"r2:�;.. ... _ : ,r.. , if.•: :' r.. :'. t'^. work t:.'e.
COmviSs . o:. .l'. o ' r i^lt.ich mcte _.: i .: with .to Wt,at .7 5 �ii`e ric'CI ?C 41
That ,Iti.,_ iii. ,. •:t. 'E_r. It' istc..0.e the bed 'mot
Dt-afj.: .vxii.t is ::'7(_`.l.L'dt
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for "':L: cot:r Via-::,, --d t i ICJ or ?
tCl.`?l:i i..t'�`_tl !. "i;;. as % Y:.!v7 rt. a'1. �•�..,
.. _.. .ate.• !:; 'tea.. �: _ :Y. t� f'� t. L_.._ dac !i:...• i":MO
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t•1 �'1 F ...r C� ..l .c N +al.ea '4 k__» to l:: Yam: �._ iT'' !..;.r wl. 'til
"lit.
.C.:a. r.{St%i :a'tr '"y_'.�.:i�>y �:'.1�,- �aw ��?�:ti'a�.� .'y. in, don't :t:it.!fJ nt 't j: ? .ar y t:.) cut,.
. �. •.? will
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b:r:'_
,- •• ,ice �:. .
fi` �.5 r:'J» ".a ::tS y `^, :e =v
.:_,^1 1::ila3» - , .': _. t- ;.-l':.. C�.'.j. �_�: �;
-�;'. r,',.1� 1.&• :C ....''t ,. S...i�.... ,. .. pro;. _.:: _._ the t^,trm �a, . 7:13 r.ray
n.ate_. ._ _. Cyf, �l:'z Lt, ou: ye -a Ci.;v «:i _a
y4 11,1;r Wbera T- '".i ?a)J.i''-' to
. ar_. • -o i. .'i
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•
you tecoi.mend ate the three,four or ten things that need to be done to balance
this budget. and also go beyond. if these are not acceptable then go tight down
the line to this commission so we can get a balanced budget, How else ate We
going to do it? You cannot layoff people, You may have to come back, and perhaps
you can convince the fire department and police depar...ent to cc:ae up with
for the frin;es. I don't know. That is something you are coin; to have to come_
back with. The fact is the city of Miami obviously, ----the pie isn't going to get
any bigger. All you have to come back with is how you are going to chop up the pie.
Mrs. Gordon: Look at scale of the dollar -a -year leases we have outstanding Mr.
Grassie.
Mayor Ferret We 4 ay have to go into garbage fees.
Mrs. Gordon: You are allowing some entities to utilize acres of city land,
for a dollars a year. Look at that with a return. Lock at the municipal justice
building which we had set for you to receive a return. Now, `;cu are putting
personnel in there,fine. But they don't have to spread cut fry.:. 12,000 sq. ft.
to 22,000 sq. ft. fcr the same department. I don't think that is necessary.
Lock at things of that nature. Look at it where it affects ycu personally
and your staff, whether or not you really need to do some i provement that
you might have in ..find, and other things that we all have in mind, and have bad
and perhaps everybody's belt has to tighten. Not just the low echeicn cn the
totem vole. Okay?
Mr. Plummer: Mr. Mayor before yeti adjourn, may I please, so that I can be discharged
of my
`
y former du and respcnsibi1ity, ask that a motion, which I will ;lake, be ass Eel
andthat ncticnbei _ that we accept the report of the pane'_ and that we pay them
based upon the agreed -upon ;rice, for that work done to this point, once I have
apprcved the bill. Because anything subsequent to this will be negotiable, but I
would like to brine this prrtion of it to a Conclusion.
Mayor :'err. _.:Mr . Plummer it is 4 o'clock and we want to move along
Mayor Ferre: rather Gibson seconds. further discussion': Call the roll
The following motion was introduced by Cc missioner Plummer, who
moved its adoption:
MOTION NO. 77-774
A MOTION FORMALLY ACCEPTING THE REPORT OF THE BUDGET
ADVISORY PANEL, CO.;SIST1NG OE FOUR (4) I::DIVIDUALS, NAMELY,
1{ARVEY HENDRICKSO`' , PhD. CP A, IRGING FANTL, PhD., CPA,
JOHN RE INGTON, PhD. AND .:ILLIA_'f WELCH, PhD. DATED CCTOBER
1977, ON THE SL ,JECT OF THE ANALYSIS OF THE 1977-7S BUDGET
ESIIM,T= AND AUTHORIZING PAYMENT TO THE EUI Gcl ADVISORY PamN
.L
FOR WORK ACCEPTED AS OF FRIDAY, CC:OB R 7, 1977
Upon being seconded cv Ccmmissioner Gibson, the motion was paused
and adopted by t''_ following vote:
AYESS .M r. Plummer, Ys>. Gordon, Rev. Gibson, Mr, ?ebeso and Ma^or Ferre.
e.
NOES: None.
ABSENT: None.
M . Charles Hall: Your honor, T_ a» going to be very brie'. T_ know evervbcdy
tired. We have been for a number of days going through this process. Fist I would
like to thank the r:emmission for the action they took here tcday. I think it ..as
the r:_Oht action. I think it was *.'.:orally . ehc and I think it was legally right.
I don't want is leave here hcwe': ter , wi:h some of the figures bandied around abcuc
fringe bene__ts withcut making a couple of comments. This keep_ ernin, up a:cd
of course the press gets that and they don't understand why we have 47% fringe
benefit retie. hero a:se u >? e of reasons for that.One of t:.e major reasons,
your henc'r, and members o: the commission, le that fcr 11 .':ors we hae a crust
.:court at Seut:l-as . . _.st .+at_ceal Jan: who ad;::'_^.i ;tore: eel- CV .._11w^n dollar
pension fund, that had a 11 year r.'eTa_e of less ch:.r. 27;. That shoui_. not be .une
aro'ung che neck of the employees, There was a manipul:.cton, and I use that vcrd
Correctly I th,nk, there was a manipulatiei c :he actuarial .3ssur';:ions to reduce
•
OCT 0;1977
the cit;''r C::i Cit ioi.: i r j C:a .. Ylth was 1 ..Y . e ju , at'.d
till. :4R, I. S.A. '.1L- L-- 1&!..`i end p&Jvla ._„,c_i`i �:"" - to worry about the federal governtent
ent
coring and looking at those books, then they started '.g,c!ti :1;, honest and they
th,e proper •:i?Lti±"l c..,'i .l iab ._,t
Thi of the 1 4ftaf fault 'that all t.:?s'::" :3 happ rcel. '•L r.: : you vern
t:.: a:, ..:1is.a11..:ii ^t..a, v .. . o.n.d ,'i::n, tr ._.7 to i.C:?_ '?,.C:,."i..c.t . i
Ai"�i: .. t. ��•:.?�...� C5 `. ..•at+lfl±i_ w- :::_:� ., .... -.'. .{'„CI{a of ':3 all.of f . recall.
:he st-tc .ht ., honor, t.hnn .•? s'... )Li_ i all ta.ka a t 1 think
the . f ti,ti 'f u. ...._..,_ has _.lr.•iJ t".......-:3:.t. i :?irC".,_• 19.3 oar on duty CCM1:'At
force has Ct:n ?' _ :td + 11 "��••11 t outs, le,-.n •t i t;, -'• have ea ,_
out 1i1 C?'.i-.': ti:.i, =D:'. force, '. $..r.:.l' iJi ^a Cityu..•_ 'J i?C: ,,. ::J i rc; .t:: iiiTfi fo..
our L.._ ._o<.(ti.on, 1t'•r:'a:.:il i f •f^.,;.,e:',: ._..i put it hefore Vr..x ixn\= _ .''7:i1t
7t2 'i1'_t:) 1%♦ IL 1.'„_i1-:" ._';' �:� c..� .. �:'.tt�:?:?c' ..1._.1 il...... ". _ PS ^ C,'-'11SCLti
fir:. out ;?` L>(. .''':"f..._._.... .,hat rai_i.l, i::p:>a,:,1Tc._ in C.. ;v'. T iir;'
t+? t.. '1-. _. i _. i' , .,,, i. have hLd ,'' ;e:pOC_ :1 to t%'...k to :? n .___.-..
('� C�(-:•f.�•, i:!.'.�t:i ._. .j r- •-._ _.f L:. ?:1 a_ .s-c:...; nct ic; — ! 7i<'1 t. E:':. ._ a a.i t,t
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we are. in. wcIlt
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c. .a. r3= .. ..vr are h:.ad6,.... ...,.1.. J. the
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lr �$ .4 ;ji' (;?. i.i•:'. ': .LC' i a is not :ii to ::T"1 `..:. : it c l: t or .'+h3 1..
:7:1 S tQ `C t _.rlic'. , ..- not look. :.1.t 4:f?: ....B- .a a .
I ?l:yi y •a 7 .:: !`..... __. .,7 have ?:.,,._ r=i E'.. :9 fit,.'_ w,.a_t f. is, 7c
�l•v'L, a°ti �4•iJ r'� �1 .. :. .., .. �: :'r r _.....1.. 1:`e ._:77i?:.'..:Ca to. 'f.,._
in .....- .ci ....... _ '.ii: have to, L?4C'' :.i
t J _ :: :'. -. _ o .: Cai. fault J'_ tried t I C ' n 4-
'.(.- ,,, yt tt. r. .1„ • 'r♦ tr l - r t 1-,," „.,:"5% ,v .1- - ar, one! . .,..•-.,.�n• ,. ., : ; .._ . r ' - mOa
J.•t?±e*,; •t $ t' 1. •�•..-:'. :Cl.."'• t _a. ' . =1'1+-;hat `:s'-'. . 1\?7_, •,L..'d11.•� ti•-c' . ,,.-�:-:
...C:, ;'..:.._I.. .,._l+. :!C? t' t ., SLJ_ t' - a "D•~ :ivy .. ..I'. i, 47:::-..::,•-.•b
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•
Lt, 2.dt61.1! Mt, Mayo. tdy 1 Sat, tottethitg
Mayor terre: Go ahead Doh,
Lt. March: Mr. Mayor, I would like to say something. Dot March, on behalf of the
Fraternal Order of Police. I'd like to thank the HU panel. I had reservations
initially we hai concerns, there was an unkncwn question here. There was some-
thing that we agreed on but with significant reservations to have someone from the
university come in, we expressed our reservatione initially. When I found cut that ye:e
had initiated the phone call that led to the people who were going to participate
in the panel --and I recall your cemments concerning the haircet-- I was sure that
Dr. Hendrickson was :he berber. I'd like to commend Dr. liendrieksen, I don't know
the men, I've never met him before but I think...Dr. Hendrickson —I was very im-
pressed with the way he proceeded to cut through everything and get at the question
consistently through very difficult hearings. Dr. Hendrickson. I thank you f:pr
your leadership and I thank you for the nontribeti'm that the entire panel made.
I'd else like :o say that I've been impressed -eith :he effort:3 of '2.r. Berry and hi.3
associate, Mr. Larry Jessup. Two men who confrented the entire City Administration
armed with the Sunshine Law, went through an awful let ef budi,et data and reinforced
the need for such a Sunshine Law and reinforced the need for us to be tenacious dis-
pite the opposition and we are commited tc being just as tenacious in the future.
I was improssed with the willingness of the citizenry to listen to what we had to
offer, to raise questions andto participate in doinz the best they could to let yce
know how thay feel abet:: a reduction cf services. 1 met no very interestinz,
people in the ccmmunity in the northwest section, Edison Little River, South West
8 Street, the various Chambers cf Commerce, I had to speak what little Spanisa I
knew to communicate with tese gentlemen. I was impressed with their concern, the
degree to which they were armed with knewledge of what is goine on in the City,
and the degree to which they were personally committed to do scuething about it.
We got about 20,CCO signatures the last count of people willing to write down that
this is how we feel abcut reduction of essential services. I was impressed by the
commitment cf the young police officers, fire fighters and sanitation workers to
spend the time to do whatever it took to cemmunicate this to the citizenry. We
were led very significantly in this effort by Officer 3eety :.!ajewski, a cne-nereon
cemmittee who contributed to whatever police Officers contributed in this reepect.
I'm not impressed wizthe efforts cf peblic employees, specifically City of Miemi
employees, to do something ebout resolving whether or no: budge: fires as preseneed
were zecerate and were presented in a format in :he best intereses ef the commenity.
I'm not impressed with the attention that was given to that, I'm no: impressed with
the attention that was given te that by the media and :here is nothinet that 1 can da
about that, I'm not that optimistic. You've told me once I'm the most naive 31 year
old man you know and every day I read and wazch..I become more aware of that cenment.
I apologize for the degree to which I am naive but I can predict that all of this
is going to ceme dawn to say that the fault for the City being in the posture chat
it is new and we disagree with this posture that we are in a crisis-- but :he iine'.1
posture,7he fault is :oin; to be pinned to us, as public employees, or as police
officers. I'm concerned with the level cf police service. Ali we've aco=plished
here today is to see :hat 17 police officers do not get laid -off. We haven't ec-
complished anything with regard to the no -hire policy, to the projected reducticn
of the Police Department, even greater by SCMU i3 come September by net hiring
pol'ee tot';cers as vazancies occur. 'e:e haven't done anything about that. ccm-
=ltted to do whateeer 1 can to convey to you and to the .`:dministratien :net ths is
the k4nd o; policy that we need to re-evalueze. It's incerescing that In the Herald
it was trediczed t'eaz we are heeded towards a "New York situation." That's a very
strong stazemenz. Charlie has given you an indication that we need to evaluate :ha:
This is a Crine in ehe ',:nited States 1976 Uniform Crime Report:3, published Sep-
tember IE. It says -maybe we are headed tcwards New York, we are number two in :he
counery 'n the ne--.Dee ot= violent crimes per capita. The greaser Miami metropolitan
statistical area 4s number two in the counery in violent crimes, second to New York.
Violent crimes are fairly reliable indee of what's going on in your communi:y.
crimes..yoe gee to a pcinz where pre:per:1y aeieee...yeur people get,t1%ey
endure these thin2s, :hey don't report :hem, they get tired of waiting for e police
officer to come by, When we were :hese police efficers, we have fewer police of-
fieers to writ e these reports. And we are seeing that: now. In violene crin'es, when
somebody gets .it ever the head, when somebody get e shct, when somebody gets raped,
Li
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alind ad theri we'll evaluate later :los to whethet what %,-.1 coatended now -4as fact
the'-tuth, vzry youtve *and to Che Co17•miiOner3
r‘aspon-f.,,..:,.!. to all that theytve hear:1. We ap2-,..aciate it.
lika o the too atd th,a..FI„panelnd
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etpioyees were also scheduled to be laid -off. I'm bothered by the attitude of the
press and some City Commissioners towards the General Employees. I don't know what
Words to use or ::hat actions I can take to convince you that we are important. "•.e
play a very import role in the day-to-day operations of the City of Miami. They are
not only vital to the taxpayers but they are also vital to Police, Fire and Sanita-
tion Departments. Everyone know;; hew highly organized the Police, and Fire and
Sanitation organizations are. They are also certified by FERC. We, of course, are
not, but when we are we will be 2,200 strong. A few of the City Commissioners are
always speaking on behalf of the Police, Fire and Sanitation but not one City Come
tiissioner comes out strong in support of the General Employee, the "other employee".
Are you listening, Mr. Mayor? Whenever J. L. Plummer's name is mentioned, you
think of Police; Rose Gordon, you think of Fire, Theodore Gibson, Sanitation, that's
the way it gees, so I'm not proud, there are only two of you by process of elimina-
tion left.
Mrs. Gordon: Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute...
Ms. Skubish: Let me finish Mrs. Gordon, let me...I never interrupt you...
Mrs. Gordon: No, no, no, I just want to tell you I don't think of a Department as
a Department, I1 think of people as people, and I have demonstrated that, and I don't
like to be tagged.
Ms. Skubish: I never interrupt you Mrs. Gordon and I'd appreciate it if you don't
interrupt .:.e again. Now, Mr. Ferre, there is you and fir. P.eboso left...'aho's going
to speak for us once in a while, just mention that we are ali e?...Are you vine
to do it?..Put it on the record, come on Mr. Reboso, put it on the record, oncein
a while when Police, and Fire and Sanitation are mentioned you say Mr. Rt?bC`i, I'm
for the General :.m?loyee, I'm for "the other one," "the other", as the Herald always
puts us. Are yell :wing to do it? Okay.
Mayor Ferre: I want to
and T.J., all of you in
think curve done well,
dam: n_a.mia.ai.:._ , and wan:
commend yeu, Pat, and I want to commend Den `arch, and Gene
the e::ployee groups for defending "toner :onsti tu'. ncies. I
you've done a�good job, you've ve reprecentc.d thew fairly an.?
to con ratulat. all of you.
Mrs. Gorden: I want to congratulate you tco Pat but I also want to correct you.
When I mentioned before_ that 1 spent a week in a Conference and I came back and
brought the in_crmaticn that the General Employees' fringe beneI_ts are a heck of
a lot less....
Ms. Skubish: F I' , knew.
Mrs. Gordon: Well, they are a whole lot less than the uniform Departments and that
they are lass than the National A`lerase.... I didn't bring that back because T_ did -
not want it to impress people that perhaps the General Employees are not eett^:ng
some cf the benefits that they are supposed to get. I just wanted you to knew
that.
Mayor ierre: Ail right, thank you very much.
we stand...
All right, ladies and gentleman.
Rev. Gibson: Mx. Mayor, I want to again thank those men who served in that panel
because, Sir, you really gave me courage to keep the faith.
Mayor Ferre. All right, thank you very much. We stand adjourned.
ADJOUn RENT :
There being no further business to ceee before the City Cot3Lssion,
on motion duly :made and seconded, the reetine. was adjourned at 4:20 P.M,
t$T,, FALP4 G. CNGIE
City clerk
Assistant City C10