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HomeMy WebLinkAboutCC 1978-09-15 MinutesIIIII1I11111111IIIIIIIIIIII11uiI.uIIIII■IIIuIIIuIu mmmi uni■■ CITY OF MIAMI COMMISSION MINUTES OF MEETING HELD ON September 15, 1978 PREPARED BY THE OFFICE OF THE CITY CLERK CITY HALL IIIII■IIIIIIII I II III IIII i i II■IIIIIII 11111111 11,111111111111111111111111 NUTE5 OF SPACIAL- MEET1Na of THE A1'? COMMISSION OF MIAMI, FLORID ii fi ii 1i .1 On the 15th day of September, 1978s the City Commission f �Miami, Florida, met at the Miami Police Department, 400 NW 2nd Avenue in Special Workshop Session to review the proposed Appropriations Ordinance for Fiscay Year 78-79 with Department Directors, The mee-tng was called to order at 9:05 O'Clock by Mayor Maurice A. Ferre with the following members City Commission present: Commissioner Rose Gordon Commissioner J. L. Plummer, Jr. Commissioner (Rev.) Theodore Gibson Mayor Maurice A. Ferre Vice -Mayor Manolo Reboso Joseph R. Grassie, City Manager L. Fosmoen, Assistant City Manager` George F. Knox, City Attorney Ralph G. Ongie, City Clerk Natty Hirai, assistant City Clerk An invocation was delivered by Reverend Theodore Gibson who then led those present in a pledge of allegiance to the flag. Mr. Plummer: Mr. Gary, this is a review of the budget, departmental head hearings, how do you wish to A.M. of the proceed? Mr. Gary: What I'd like to do, firstly I'd like to postpone the Police Department and Citizen Services until Monday because the Police Chief won't be back until tonight. Mrs. Gordon: ... do you have scheduled...? Mr. Gary: Well, what I've done because the City Commission may ask questions of one department that may affect another department as all department heads speak at all times because you may want to jump back from issue to issue and they will be able to respond to you on any given issue at any given time, I've asked all department heads to be here all at one time. ghat I'd like to do if we can is to proceed along the lines of the way the budget is organized skipping over the Mayor and the Board of Commissioners keeping that for last if you don't mind. Mr. Plummer: Whichever way you want it. Mr. Gary: Ok, I'd like to start on page 43 with the City Clerk, Mr. Plummer: I don't know of a better one to start pick ng On, Mr. Ongie: I don't either. Mr. Gary: Then we'll proceed throughout. Now what 1 thought is that each department head will give a presentation of his budget and then you could ask that department head any questions you may have. Mt. Plummer: Mr. Gary, t see that there are some department heads that ate not Present, obviously they're not concerned about budget. Mt. Gary: Well, they were informed that they were supposed to be here with the exception of Police and.... Mr. Plummer: Well, I'm sure they'll have a representative. A11 right, customar- ily so I will ask two questions of every department head, I want you to be sure to address them directly in your presentation or rest assured they'll ve asked before you leave. Those questions basically are that when you put budgets together you put a lot of things in your budget that are usually cut out but I want to know if there has been anything cut out of your budget that you feel is essential to the operation of your department and second of all I want to know in the areas overall where you feel the tightness of your budget is and how well you can live with that tightness. I think also that there are proposed that there will be ten cuts, I'm not completely familiar, I don't know if it's been told at this time where those ten cuts will occur, I think that they are minimal but still if you are affected minimal could be maximum and I want to know what your views are on that. I think we can go ahead and proceed. I'm glad, Mr. Brice, that you did have a little concern about your budget, we only cut it 30%, had you been here to protect it you would have made it. Mr. Clerk, do you want to make a presentation? 1. PRESENTATION OF PROPOSED BUDGET - OFFICE OF THE CITY CLERK Air. Ongie: The cuts that I was asked to make in the budget, Mr. Commissioner and members of the Commission, I feel I can live with. My main concern was the replace- ment of the recording system which was part of what I hd to cut but the Commission took action on that matter yesterday. I think the other items that are in the budget I can live with. Mr. Plummer: So you're satisfied? Mr. Ongie: Yes, sir. Mr. Plummer: Mir. Grassie, since you were not here on time, sir, we only cut your budget by 22%. Mr. Grassie: That was very thoughtful of you, Commissioner. Mr. Plummer: We'll try to do better this afternoon. Any questions from members of the Commission of the Clerk's Office in his budget? Rev. Gibson: I want to ask a question. Did you all get an increase this year? Mr. Ongie: No, sir. Rev. Gibson: No increase in salary? Mr. Ongie: No, sir. Mr. Plummer: Now excuse me, Father, I think that we should for the sake or argu- ment until salaries... Well excuse me, the Clerk's Office is under us directly, it is not under anything else. Rev. Gibson: Well, I just want to make sure everybody starts off the game in the same direction and start at the home grade batting. I'm going to ask because you know I think that all of us are going to be talking about sooner or later you can't pay this one, you can't pay that one and I want to make sure that we're telling everybody the same thing. Do you know what I mean? So when you answer for me I want yOL to say you're going to get 5% increase or 10o increase or no increase. A man the other day was offered a 4% increase and normally he should have gotten 5, he elected to get 5 or nothing. I said to him, "You're a fool." That's what the priest said to that man, 'You are a fool". And you know what, after he prayed about two or three nights over it he came back and said, I think I am a fool and you've got plenty of sense. So I hope we're going to understand that is where Gibson is coming from - if you're going to increase, if you're going to raise these salaries and I want you to make sure and tell me that you got a raise last year and when you got it if you got it. Ok? So that everybody will be dealt with fairly and squarely. Mr. Plummer; Mr. Clerk, are you covered under the Executive Pay Plan? Mr. Ongie; No, sir. Mr, Plummer: All right, so in other words your employees that work for you are a part of GEA, is that correct, and we only deal with you and your assistant? Mr, Ongie: Yes, sir. Mr. Plummer: As far as salary increases, sir, and your employees are covered under regular negotiations. Mr, Ongie: Yes. Mr. Plummer: So what we've got to remember when the final word comes down to budget, that, in fact, we must deal with your and your assistant at that time, EE Mr. Ongie: Yes, sir. Mr. Plummer: Okay. Glad you could join us, Mr. Howard, seeing as how you were ma so late we've only cut your budget by 25%. All right, anything else on the Clerk's MI Office? Do you wart to just now proceed through? All right, Mr. Knox, you're on the carpet. Are you prepared or do you want to come back for your's? Mr. Knox: No, I'm prepared. MEM MEM E 2. PRESENTATION OF PROPOSED BUDGET - LAW DEPARTMENT. Mr. Knox: Commissioners, you will note that the requested amount for the Law Department this year is $788,548. Again by virtue of the transfers from the Uniform Accounting System and so forth the Law Department in real dollars is receiving a 5.1% decrease as against the budget that was adopted last year. This $788,000 amount is reqsonable in light of the constraints under which we have to operate because there is a certain advantage that the Law Department may have gained in terms of its operations by transferring certain of its personnel over to the Self -Insurance Trust Fund, the investigators and they should be appro- priated in that department. The second thing that happened was in order to effec- tuate some of the cuts we eliminated one vacant position for an Assistant City Attorney and one vacant position for a legal stenographer. Now while that allows us to meet our budgetary limit, Commissioner Plummer asked that we address areas of tightness. We have appropriated a nominal amount of money which was to be used by outside legal services especially in the areas of condemnation, emminent domain and bonding because we historically go outside for that. With increasing frequency we have chosen, or been directed by the City Commission to get outside counsel in certain kinds of cases and this is an appropriate procedure. Now the concern that we would have is that for the mcst part the types of legal services that are provided by outside counsel are very expensive and as long as we can receive some assurance, and we've had no difficulty in the past, in finding funds to pay these outside attorneys then our legal operations would not recessarily be impaired but that is an area of concern at this point. The second area of con- cern is related to the budget but it is a little more subtle. Now the Law Depart- ment has a sort of distinction because it is primarily full of people who have big egos and that's the personality of an attorney. We have to be concerned about two things: We have to be concerned about having our salaries competitive with the salaries of those attorneys in the private sector otherwise we would never hope to be able to attract good attorneys. In light of the fact that our salaries as an attorney stays with our office longer our salariEE lecome less and less competitive and for that reason we have to have some kind of an attraction or an inducement to keep attorneys when they realize that they can make more money outside. The attraction that we have number one is the nature of their responsi- bility but secondly it is what we call amenities and I'm concerned about these amenities and I'll try to give examples of what I'm talking about. Attorneys pride themselves, well attorneys talk about how their offices look either with pride or with some embarrassment. Because of the kinds of purchases that are made in the Law Department with respect to equipment and furnishings our Law Department resembles a government law office as distinguished, for example, from the Commissioners' Offices and from the other offices in City Hall.... Mr. Plummer: You just lost, go ahead. Mr. Knox: I'm going to tell it like it is. Mrs, Gordon: Is your wallpaper hanging off? Mine Mr. Knox; Well, the wallpaper is on there but.. Mr, Plummer: Is the bathroom ceiling failing? S OF SPECIAL- MtE OF THE ITV COMMISSION OF MIAMI, FLORIDA. .Y fi ii .1 ■ 41 On the 15th day of September, 1978, the City Commission f Miami, Florida, met at the Miami Police Department, 400 N.W. 2nd Avenue in Special Workshop Session to review the proposed Appropriations Ordinance for Fiscay Year 78-79 with Department Directors. • 1 • The meeing was called to order at 9:05 O'Clock A.M. by Mayor Maurice A. Ferre with the following members of the City Commission present: Commissioner Rose Gordon Commissioner J. L. Plummer, Jr. Commissioner (Rev.) Theodore Gibson Mayor Maurice A. Ferre Vice -Mayor Manolo Reboso Joseph R. Grassie, City Manager L. Fosmoen, Assistant City ,Manager George F. Knox, City Attorney Ralph q. Ongie, City Clerk Natty Hirai, assistant City Clerk An invocation was delivered by Reverend Theodore Gibson who then led those present in a pledge of allegiance to the flag. Mr. Plummer: Mr. Gary, this is a review of the budget, departmental head hearings, how do+ you wish to proceed? Mr. Gary: What I'd like to do, firstly I'd like to postpone the Police Department and Citizen Services until Monday because the Police Chief won't be back until tonight. Mrs. Gordon: ... do you have scheduled...? Mr. Gary: Well, what I've done because the City Commission may ask questions of one department that may affect another department as all department heads speak at all times because you may want to jump back from issue to issue and they will be able to respond to you on any given issue at any given time, I've asked all department heads to be here all at one time. ;:hat I'd like to do if we can is to proceed &long the lines of the way the budget is organized skipping over the Mayor and the Board of Commissic.ners keeping that for last if you don't mind. Mr. Plummer: Whichever way you want it. Mr. Gary: Ok, I'd like to start on page 43 with the City Clerk, Mr. Plummer: I don't know of a better one to start picking on. Mr. Ongie: I don't either. Mr, Gary: Then we'll proceed throughout. Now what I thought is that each department head will give a presentation of his budget and then you could ask that department head any questions you may have. M ■ ■ • ■ Mt. Plummer: Mr. Gary, I see that there are some department heads that are not present, obviously they're not concerned about budget. Mr. Gary: Well, they were informed that they were supposed to be here with the exception of Police and.... Mr. Plummer: Well, I'm sure they'll have a representative. All right, customar- ily so I will ask two questions of every department head, I want you to be sure to address them directly in your presentation or rest assured they'll ve asked before you leave. Those questions basically are that when you put budgets together you put a lot of things in your budget that are usually cut out but I want to know if there has been anything cut out of your budget that you feel is essential to the operation of your department and second of all I want to know in the areas overall where you feel the tightness of your budget is and how well you can live with that tightness. I think also that there are proposed that there will be ten cuts, I'm not completely familiar, I don't know if it's been told at this time where those ten cuts will occur, I think that they are minimal but still if you are affected minimal could be maximum and I want to know what your views are on that. I think we can go ahead and proceed. I'm glad, Mr. Brice, that you did have a little concern about your budget, we only cut it 30%, had you been here to protect it you would have made it. Mr. Clerk, do you want to make a presentation? 1. PRESENTATION OF PROPOSED BUDGET - OFFICE OF THE CITY CLERK Mr. Ongie: The cuts that I was asked to make in the budget, Mr. Commissioner and members of the Commission, I feel I can live with. My main concern was the replace- ment of the recording system which was part of what I hd to cut but the Commission took action on that matter yesterday. I think the other items that are in the budget I can live with. Mr. Plummer: So you're satisfied? Mr. Ongie: Yes, sir. Mr. Plummer: tor. Grassie, since you were not here on time, sir, we only budget by 22%. Mr. Grassie: That was very thoughtful of you, Commissioner. Mr. Plummer: We'll try to do better this afternoon. Any questions from members of the Commission of the Clerk's Office ir.his budget? Rev. Gibson: I want to ask a question. Did you all get an increase this year? Mr. Ongie: No, sir. Rev. Gibson: No increase in salary? Mr. Ongie: No, sir. Mr. Plummer: Now excuse me, Father, I think that we should for the sake or argu- ment until salaries... Well excuse me, the Clerk's Office is under us directly, it is not under anything else. Rev. Gibson: Well, I just want to make sure everybody starts off the game in the same direction and start at the home grade batting. I'm going to ask because you know I think that all of us are going to be talking about sooner or later you can't pay this one, you can't pay that one and I want to make sure that we're telling everybody the same thing. Do you know what I mean? So when you answer for me I want yot to say you're going to get 5% increase or 10% increase or no increase. A man the other day was offered a 4% increase and normally he should have gotten 5, he elected to get 5 or nothing. I said to him, "You're a fool." That's what the priest said to that man, You are a fool". And you know what, after he prayed about two or three nights over it he came back and said, I think I am a fool and you've got plenty of sense. So I hope we're going to understand that is where Gibson is coming from - if you're going to increase, if you're going to raise these salaries and I want you to make sure and tell me that you got a raise last year and when you got it if you got it. Ok? So that everybody will be dealt with fairly and squarely. Mr. Plummer; Mr. Clerk, are you covered under the Executive Pay Plan? Mr, Ongie; Na,, sir, Mr, Plummer: All right, so in other words your employees that work for you ate a part of GEA, is that correct, and we only deal with you and your assistant? Mr, Ongie: Yes, sir. Mt, Plummer: As far as salary increases, sir, and your employees are covered under regular negotiations. Mr, Ongie: Yes. Mr, Plummer: So what we've got to remember when the final word comes down to budget, that, in fact, we must deal with your and your assistant at that time, Mr, Ongie: Yes, sir. Mr, Plummer: Okay. Glad you could join us, Mr. Howard, seeing as how you were so late we've only cut your budget by 25%. All right, anything else on the Clerk's Office? Do you wart to just now proceed through? All right, fir. Knox, you're on the carpet. Are you prepared or do you want to come back for your's? Mr. Knox: No, I'm prepared. 2, PRESENTATION OF PROPOSED BUDGET - LAW DEPARTMENT. Mr. Knox: Commissioners, you will note that the requested amount for the taw Department this year is $788,548. Again by virtue of the transfers from the Uniform Accounting System and so forth the Law Department in real dollars is receiving a 5.1% decrease as against the budget that was adopted last year. This $788,000 amount is reqsonable in light of the constraints under which we have to operate because there is a certain advantage that the Law Department may have gained in terms of its operations by transferring certain of its personnel over to the Self -Insurance Trust Fund, the investigators and they should be appro- priated in that department. The second thing that happened was in order to effec- tuate some of the cuts we eliminated one vacant position for an Assistant City Attorney and one vacant position for a legal stenographer. Now while that allows us to meet our budgetary limit, Commissioner Plummer asked that we address areas of tightness. We have appropriated a nominal amount of money which was to be used by outside legal services especially in the areas of condemnation, emminent domain and bonding because we historically go outside for that. With increasing frequency we have chosen or been directed by the City Commission to get outside counsel in certain kinds of cases and this is an appropriate procedure. Now the concern that we would have is that for the mcst part the types of legal Cervices that are provided by outside counsel are very expensive and as long as we can receive some assurance, and we've had no difficulty in the past, in finding funds to pay these outside attorneys then our legal operations would not recessarily be impaired but that is an area of concern at this point. The second area of con- cern is related to the budget but it is a little more subtle. Now the Law Depart- ment has a sort of distinction because it is primarily full of people who have big ego:.: and that's the personality of an attorney. We have to be concerned about two things: We have to be concerned about having our salaries competitive with the salaries of those attorneys in the private sector otherwise we would never hope to be able to attract good attorneys. In light of the fact that our salaries as an attorney stays with our office longer our salaries lecome less and less competitive and for that reason we have to have some kind of an attraction or an inducement to keep attorneys when they realize that they can make more money outside. The attraction that we have number one is the nature of their responsi- bility but secondly it is what we call amenities and I'm concerned about these amenities and I'll try to give examples of what I'm talking about. Attorneys pride themselves, well attorneys talk about how their offices look either with pride or with some embarrassment. Because of the kinds of purchases that are made in the Law Department with respect to equipment and furnishings our Law Department resembles a government law office as distinguished, for example, from the Commissioners' Offices and from the other offices in City Hall.... Mr. Plummer: You just lost, go ahead. Mr. Knox: I'm going to tell it like it is, Mrs. Gordon: Is your wallpaper hanging off? Mine i Mr, Knox; Well, the wallpaper is on there but,. Mr. Plummer; Is the bathroom ceiling falling? Mr. Knox: But we don't have any plans for renovation. I'll tell you what I'm talking about. If we order carpeting for offices we get floor covering - and there is a difference. If we order sofas for our office - we get things that three people sit on but they are far cries from sofas. So we have basic bare essentials as equipment and it creates morale problems among the attorneys. Quite frankly, I don't know what can be done about it. But I have to call it to your attention. Now the third thing has to do with the same kine of problem in terms of these amenities and the attorneys are concerned about the same kinds of appear- ances as far as the public is concerned and because of an absence of these amenit- ies there is a feeling that the Law Department is not a part of the triumvirate in terms of this City's government and I call your attention to that simply be- cause it is related to the budget in the sense that what we have to try to do is take care of personnel expenses and acquisitions of equipment and supplies and the quality of the supplies that we're called upon to purchase is not commensurate with the quality of the supplies that may be found elsewhere in the City. So unless you have any questions I will conclude my presentation. Mr, Plummer: Any questions from members of the Commission? Rev. Gibson: I want to respond. ttel Reese isn't around here any longer and I'm not saying that's good or bad but I learned one thing from Mr. Reese: When we were about to make the City Attorney a full time position we were negotiating salary. I said to Mr. Reese, the average man in the legal profession, how does that salary add up with? Well he makes more. You know what Mel Reese said to me that I'll never forget? It has guided my life in talking about money. He said, Well, every morning the City Attorney gets up, he goes where he's going, he has an office, he has assurance or amenities or whatever that business is, he doesn't have to worry if he gets a case, he's got a case whether he has one to go into court with or not he has it. I'm not so sure I'm so concerned about the furniture, I want to respond and this is for everybody in the City - that's the way I operate that Commission Office that you gave me down there, that the people gave me. I'm not so sure I'm concerned with all these amenities as I am concerned with what I do in the office for the people and if I have somewhere to go every morning and don't have to worry about whether I wake up at 6 O'Clock or 5 O'Clock I think that has a decided advantage for those folk who work for the City. By the way, don't forget my son is a lawyer. Ok? Mr. Knox: I'd like to respond. Now what you say is absolutely true but what I'm saying is - that's fine but again we must talk universally because the Law Depart- ment represents in court the people and people perceive members of the Law Depart- ment and their working conditions in a certain way and they make judgements about the quality of the representation based on that. Now in the Law Department we occupy two floors in the Olympia Building, the 7th floor and the loth floor and a great deal of our, the people's time, is spent waiting on two manually operated elevators to go up and down between those two floors. Now again this reflects on how the lawyers are able to do their job. Yes, lawyers who work for government do have some place to go and don't have to worry about cases but at the same time the lawyers that work for this office are capable of becoming City Attorneys on their own and when they leave this office they're capable of joining those firms where they might have to worry about times but they will be handsomely rewarded because that's the quality of the attorneys that we have in our office on our staff. The fact is that two lawyers have left our staff in order to become City Attorneys and another one, Michael Anderson I'm sure doesn't worry about getting cases working for Murray Dubbin. In order to keep that kind of a good lawyer I'm saying that amenities while they're not important in terms of the budget, while everybody recognizes that sacrifices have to be made and you commit yourself to that sacrifice when you work for a government entity in the first place what I'm saying is that to the extent that there are major renovations in City Hall, to the extent that executive members of the administrative staff and to some extent the City Commissioners have comfortable pleasant almost plush offices we're just asking that when it's time for us to do the same thing that we don't get govern- ment issue supplies and equipment. Rev. Gibson: I want to respond. I have no problem with that, I think you ought to get all the modern equipment to do the work possible, that's not my concern. I'm shocked and surprised - I agree with you, when I see the renovations in City Hall and you can't get an elevator that would move any faster than that I have to wonder. Let me ask the Manager. Mr. Manager, you know you're pretty good at finding money, you have been thus far, you and your staff, why can't you all give us in the Law Department or anywhere else buildings that at least look fairly you know, they don't have to be plush? Is there any opposition to that? Mr. Grassie: Commissioner, my recollection is that the City spent something like $250,000 remodeling the space for the City Attorney. Mk% Pt1.jji t: Last year. Mr: Grassie: The space that they have is in a City building, that's why they're there. The Olympia Building belongs to the City. The question of the elevator I assume is strictly a question of economics of that building and I happen to think that if the building could support that kind of investment it would be a good idea to make that an automatic elevator but the people who run the building, the Off- Street Parking Authority apparently have concluded that that is not an expense that the building can support. And remember that we have private tenants, more private tenants than So in their judgement they have not been able to justify that kind of investment. I mean it is strictly a question of how much money you're going to put in it. Rev. Gibson: But have they been asked? Mr. Grassie: I've asked them, whether or not.,, Rev. Gibson: They wrote that? Mr. Grassie: I don't know that they're ever written that to me. Rev. Gibson: Wait, when Mr. La Baw comes I shall raise Mr. La Baw, are you willing to modernize the facilities they run over, you remember, didn't they run over their to give it to them and you know we knuckled under. that with Mr. La Baw. for the City? You know, budget and they asked us Mr. Grassie: We're going to have to subsidize that budget. Rev. Gibson: I just hope that we be as genuinely sincere in that instance as we are in some others because I'm going to raise it with him. I saw him yesterday is he here? Mr. Grassie: No. Rev. Gibson: Oh, he doesn't have to come. Mr. Plummer: He's not a department head. Rev. Gibson: Ok, I'll take care of him when he comes. Mr. Plummer: Mr. Grassie, let me ask you, is it proposed that the Law Department will be moving into the Administrative Building? Mr. Grassie: No. The Administrative Building has relatively a restricted number of square feet, net less than 60,000 square feet and the group of activities that are planned to move in there are all the activities that a citizen would have to contact in his process of developing or building something within the City. Mr. Plummer: You have no idea of moving the Commission there do you? Mr. Grassie: No. The departments that are scheduled in there are the Fire Depart- ment, particularly the Fire Marshalls operation, the Public Works Department, the Building Inspection Department, the Planning Department, these are the principal ones. They all have to do with plan review and the processing of papers for the City so that he has one place to go that is convenient. Mr. Plummer: Mrs. Gordon? Mrs. Gordon: Mr. Grassie, may I ask you a question? You said this was a City building which kind of indicated that we don't pay any rent but I don't believe that's true. What do we pay for the space? Mr. Grassie: Mrs. Gordon: paying rent. Well, there is no indication that we don't pay rent... No, but the City building to me is only another building if we're, The point is how much are we paying? Mr. Knox: $69,000. Mrs. Gordon; How much are we paying per square foot on that basis?; Mr, Grassie; I think it is about $4,50 a square foot, MM MM MM Mrs. Gordon: Then the thought is with the lack of amenities and the antiquated obsolete elevators and so forth for similar space in other buildings it's poss- ible it might be even less expensive than $4.50 to rent. Then the point is.... Mr. Grassie: I don't believe that's true, Commissioner. Mrs. Gordon: I didn't say it is, I said it's possible. Now, if, in fact, you know we have to stay in that building because the City has some contractual arrange,- ment with the Off -Street Parking Authority to stay there that's one thing but if it isn't the case then it is possible that the department could be moved to more adequate quarters. Mr. Plummer: Why can't the Building Department condemn the elevator? Mr. Grassie: The private tenants in that building pay 5 and 5.50, the private sector tenants. So there is no indication that they can get cheaper space of that quality any place else and their space by and large is not improved the way the EE law offices have been improved. Mrs. Gordon: I do believe that we could belabor this for a long time but I really think that we have to move along and I do think that we have been made aware of the problem that at least ought to be researched for a solution. I really think there is a problem and it is a problem that is a delicate problem, it isn't one that's as critical perhaps as some other problems that we face but it still is a problem and I think we have to do something to try to find a solution. Mr. Grassie: There is no question about it, there are all sorts of City operations that have less than adequate quarters. Some of the Parks Department's operations are substandard kind of quarters, even the City Commission Offices down in City Hall in my estimation are much less than adequate. Mrs. Gordon: True, but there is a delicate side affect that becomes apparent that was pointed out and it is a fact that affects the quality of the work return that is given under those circumstances so at any rate I don't think that I want to belabor it anymore right now. Rev. Gibson: I want to make one comment, further comment: I used to work for an insurance company in my early days - don't tell anybody I told you that - know that the company told us? The company told us how many thousands of dollars it cost them to train us, and the reason I'm saying that is because I think I hear what I know I hear, why you have this turn over of lawyers. You go ahead and you take these guys and you train them. Since I've been with the City I've seen about three of them, four of them leave and we've trained them, given them all of that experience and they go out there on the market and they just mint that money. I'm not going to say no more. Mr. Plummer: I guess I'm the only one sitting here that my clients don't care about amenities. Rev. Gibson: Oh yes they do. Mr. Plummer: Mr. Gary, I'm going to deviate, now does that conclude the Law Department? Mr. Knox, what is your present salary? Mr. Knox: My present salary is $47,000 annually. Mr. Plummer: The lawyers, do we control those or are they a part of negotiations? Mr. Knox: (INAUDIBLE)... Now I can tell you as far as salaries are concerned, and I have proposed an increase for myself to $50,000 and 7% increases for eight of the Assistant City Attorneys and a 10% increase for two of the Assistant City Attorneys. The percentage on mine is something less than 7%, the percentage on the Deputy City Attorney's increase is something less than 7%, eight attorneys got 7%, two attorneys got 10%. Mrs. Gordon: And that's all included in the schedule. Mayor Ferre: I apologize for being late but I made a mistake, I thought that the meeting was at City Hall and I went down there and then I had trouble getting a place to park. I had to park out on the street and walk a couple of blocks but tat's all right. Mr. Plummer: Father says he can only stay at the meeting 59 minutes so don't worry about it. Mr. Gary, I would like unless the Mayor wanted to deviate I would like to deviate and take and get out so that they can return to the essential. service of Police and Fite. Mr4 Gary: The Police we'd like to dehedulefeit Mchda because Chief HafinS wiil not be here until... Mr. Plummer: Okay. Can we take Fite how and get this high priced help back to City Hall? Mr. Mayor, if you want to proceed, What we've done is we've done the Clerk's Office and we've done the Law Department. Mayor Ferre: Okay. Mr. Plummer: Herman. Kenny, is everyone up here familiar with Chief McCullough? Unfortunately he and I went to school together. Why do I look so young? Rev. Gibson: You mean to tell me he learned all of that? Mr. Plummer: He got smart. Rev. Gibson: He learned all of that and I want to know where Plummer was. Chief Herman Brice: 0ur budget proposal that you have before you on page 71 essentially shows a reduction of 3.18%. The primary reduction was found in the abolishment of six vacant fire fighter positions and we can feel by making some adjustments that we had planned anyway in the Master Plan provide the level of services you are used to and the public is used to with this budget proposal that we have here. I will be glad to answer any questions that you have but the Fire Department is sati.sfied, we have worked with Mr. Gary and Mr. Grassie in four budget meetings and we did our best to arrive at a reduction in the budget and with the help of Mr. Grassie and the administration in finding some other dollars for us we were able to arrive at this projected budget and the Fire Department is happy with it as it is. Mayor Ferre: Chief, ... you go from 16 million to 21,290,000, that's due to pension and fringes, once you took that the departmental budget itself as I under- stand it... Where is that pension portion of it so we could subtract it? Mr. Grassie: If you'll look on page 71, Mr. Mayor, I think the second budget highlight there will analyze it for you. Mayor Ferre: Oh I see, there it is. Mrs. Gordon: It says the decrease is primarily attributable to the reduction of Workmens' Comp and Group Insurance? Mr. Brice: Yes, last year it was somewhere around $600,000 and because of our experience in injuries we were able to reduce that substantially so that's a large decrease there alone. Mrs. Gordon: (INAUDIBLE) Mayor Ferre: I don't understand how you can say that 423,000 is 26% - in the second highlight. Mr. Grassie: On page 71, Mayor? Mayor Ferre: Yes, three. Mr. Plummer: Is there anything that you've requested in your budget that was cut out that you feel is critical or essential? Mr. Brice: No, based on the guidelines we have and which we understand.... Mr. Plummer: Mr. Grassie has indicated that you will be moved into the new build- ing, have adequate provisions been made for that transfer and for obviously the things that George complained about, you're going to need furniture and stuff, has that all been provided for? Chief Brice: Fortunately the $2,000,000 bond program is where those dollars come from as far as the Fire Department. We are participating in the funding of that Administration Building at $800,000 coming from those bond programs and we have within that dollars set aside for furnishing it so the answer is yes, we are in good shape there. Mt. Plummer: Have you made any provisions in your budget for the upcoming 911? Chief Brice: That is something that we are working in conjunction with Communi- cations and Computers, the initial cost as I understand it, Mr. Smith is here, will come from that area in the Police this year and next year after there is an experience we will be shifting costs but there are no provisions in terms of dol., Lars spent for that in our budget. Mr. Grassie: The amount since we don't know to whom it is to be attributed the amount is in Special Programs and Accounts. Mr. Plummer: What are the areas of danger that you see of fihahces in this'coMih year, what areas are you concerned about? Mr. Brice: In terms of our budget as it stands or potential? Mr. Plummer: Potential problems. Chief Brice: Well, we feel that the manning level that is expressed in this budget projection is as low as we can go and say to you honestly we could continue to provide the level of service that we are. We had projected in the long discussions with the Manager what we want to do in the long range by combining fifteen of our fire stations into eleven. In that discussion we are satisfied that we can reduce the manning on six engine companies when we get that configuration together. This budget puts us there about two years earlier so we are satisfied that we can oper- ate efficiently that way when the stations are constructed and we're moving on that, that's why Chief McCullough was a little late this morning, we're finishing up the reviews of architects now to build those three fire stations. When those are built we feel satisifed that we'll be able to operate very efficiently and in the interim I'm very satisfied. So the answer to you question is that the manning level that we represent here is a manning level that we feel we need now and in the future. Mr. Plummer: Any other questions of the Fire Department? Mayor Ferre: Yes. Chief, how are we doing on the expenditure of our $10,000,000 bond issue, do we're moving along on target on that? Chief Brice: We I think are beginning to, we were not moving as quickly as we thought we should at first due I think mainly because of maybe our inexperience in knowing all the things that we need to do to do it properly. We think that we understand those avenues now, we have set up summary charges for the $10,000,000 bond program, Chief Mc Cullough has taken over that operation. We are in the process of buying the remaining part of the fire equipment that we want, Fire apparatus. We have already had specs written and you approved it for all of our fire apparatus. We're going to be coming back to you for some aerial equipment Mayor Ferre: Give me the spectrum of how you're going to spend that 10,000,000 just roughly, rough areas. Chief Brice: We are building three fire stations, that's a little over 2,000,000. We are adding on to Station 10 which will run somewhere around $350,000. We are purchasing approximately eight engine companies, seven aerial companies.... Mayor Ferre: Is that with all the equipment and all? Chief Brice: Yes, equipment only. Mr. Plummer: What are you talking about, how many million for equipment? Chief Mc Cullough: We're talking about, with those together, about a million and three-quarters worth of fire equipment. Now this will bring us into absolutely top level with our equipment for approximately 15 years. Mayor Ferre: You still have at least $5,000,000. Chief Mc Cullough: And the Bond Program also provides for Communications and Computers, we are looking at a million and a half investment there for our com- puterated dispatch and manager information system. We're looking at $800,000 towards the City Adminstration Building which we will occupy the fifth floor. We are looking at the potential of a marine fire fighting device which will not we think be the same as a fire boat but which we think is going to be an innova- tive approach by making some agreements with NASA to enter into an experimental module which will provide us with marine fire protection we think at a more effic- ient level than just a fire boat sitting there for a marine incident. So that fire boat is there. There is a little over a million dollars provided for a training center and for a closed circuit TV system which is vitally'needed because of the fire stations being spread out. It becomes impossible with our new work load of Code enforcement everyday to do the proper training. We can't give two or three instructors to every fire station on three shifts, that's about 45 pres- entations so we need closed circuit TV to get this information out in an efficient manner. So that is an area that we're exploring. That is the only money of the $10,000,000 that is unsold mainly because we have not.... Mayor Ferre: You mean we've gone out and sold. Chief Mc Cullough: We've sold $6,000,000.... Mr. Gunderson maybe could help the on that. Mr. Gunderson: Will be on November 9th, that's 21 million that will be sold, Mayor Ferree In addition so it will be over $8,000,000? Mr. Gunderson: No, that will bring it up to the 6 that he's speaking of. Mayor Ferre: So we've got the money or will have it in the bank to move and you're satisfied that we're going ahead and that's going to greatly increase our effic- iency. Chief Brice: Yes, sir. The training center we feel very strongly about, we just have not moved on that as quickly, we have not found at this point a site that is both efficiently located or is large enough and we don't want to start selling those bonds until we're sure where we're going to build that facility. We're looking into the utilization of other resources or sharing of other City resources which might be a better approach. But all in all the bond program has really pro- vided the vehicle to allow us to get through this budget trend situation, it was a real savior to us because we would have had to buy all of our capital investment out of the normal budget, we couldn't be here because the Fire Department's oper- ation is 95% personnel and when you ask the Fire Department that's where it is and I think we all know that. Mayor Ferre: Thank you. Mr. Plummer: Any other questions of the Fire Department? Are there any members here or anyone present from the public or from the press? We don't want to ex- clude anyone even though this is not a public hearing. All right Rev. Gibson: I want to ask a question. How does our Fire Department compare with when you're talking service -wise with the County? I have an interest in that because I have some property in the County and every once in a while they have some problems and I don't understand it. Chief Brice: The County has made I think definite moves in the last few years to improve their service. As you read in the paper recently they have just been re - rated, they now have a class IV rating. The City of Miami enjoys a Class II rat- ing for the City overall which is the highest insurance rating available, there are no Class I cities in the United States. This is because of our Fire Depart- ment, because of water supply, because of our construction and because of many other things that go into the rating. We are covering 34 square miles with approx- imately 650 fire fighters, the County is covering approximately 500 square miles with about 700 fire fighters so when you distribute.... Rev. Gibson: Tell me that mileage again. Chief Brice: They have approximately 500 square miles and they are covering that with 700 fire fighters. Now that is completely understaffed and they're not able to give the three to five minute response time for EMS, for Emergency Medical Sen.- vice that we do.... Mrs. Gordon: How many fire fighters do they have? Chief Brice: They have approximately 700. Rev. Gibson: They have 7 and we have 6 and you have how many miles? Chief Brice; We have 34 square miles in the City of Miami that we're protecting,; Mayor Ferre; We haven't quite reached 600 have we? Chief Mc Cullough: 664 or 658 is our total compliment of that. Mayor Ferrel (UNINTELLIGIBLE) ■ Chief Mc Cullough: If you look on page 72 you see the overall breakdown there, ■ the total compliment is 682 counting CETA 658 total and then if you break it out our Fire Fighting Division is found in there as 548 assigned to that division MI plus 60 more to rescue. So we're over 600 in terms of the provision of Emergency Medical and Fire Fighters. Chief Brice: But my answer to you, Reverend Gibson, is that we feel that by location of our fire stations which really you almost have to be located so that engine companies are within a mile and a half response of their maximum run time and aerials two miles. We are able to do that and that is why we feel that we are successful in fire protection. We must get there quickly, we must get there with adequate man power and human resources, we must get there with the proper mechanical equipment. We can do that, we have those resources available. So by us having those resources in the concentrated area we do we can provide ultimated fire protection and can be proud of that. Metro does a good job but they are under manned and they are under stationed and they are aware of that. They have made moves in improving that but they are not up with us yet, not even close. Mrs. Gordon: What was their rating before they were given the IV? Chief Brice: They had several ratings, they had some areas of the county that were between 8 and 10 which is the worst and they had some in the area of 6 to 8. Mayor Ferre: They had one that was 5. Chief Brice: Right, they had North Miami. Some of the areas they had taken over because of the concentration of equipment the municipalities were able to do and their agreement to leave that equipment there provided better insurance rates there. Mrs. Gordon: Are they still broken into different sections... or are they overall? Chief Brice: I'm not sure, I talked Chief Donaldson briefly and my understanding is they have a IV overall but there some impacts I think according to where you are because there are still some areas that do not have adequate water nor adequate fire stations. So I think there would be a base rate established and then accord- ing to where you are there would be add-ons. Rev. Gibson: What is the response time? Chief Brice: Average 3.2, a little over three minutes, three and a half minutes. Rev. Gibson: Mr. Mayor, what is that man's name that died...? Mayor Ferre: You'd better ask Plummer, that's more in Plummer's bailiwick. Rev. Gibson: You know the founder of the.... Mr. Plummer: The Merchandise Mart? Re.. Gibson: Yes, the Merchandise Mart. I was there and I was very interested in that incident. I went there and I ... So I said I'll write to this man. It took them, and maybe I shouldn't say this but I was just thinking about the time. Chief Brice: That's a critical point particularly when it's a matter.... Rev. Gibson: And I remember when I had an experience on a Good Friday Holiday, just like that and I wondered why did that man have so much time lapse. Chief Mc Cullough: Travel, their nearest minutes from there would be either Sweetwater or the old . It is a long way. That's the key to good fire protection, proper location. Mr. Plummer: Father, let me tell you also one other thing. When they had two years ago and they had the rating the only negative thing that we had in that rating sheet was addressing this morning that is because we are a City that is adjacent to the water line so we provided no protection from the City of Miami for water fires. That's what he's addressing now because that was the only nega tive thing we got in the rating. Rev, Gibson: What, I don't understand? Mr. Plummer: Fire on the water, a boat fire or something, seaside. Rev. Gibson: Oh, I follow. And so then the other thing that you mentiohediell Chief Brice: The approach we're taking through the Bond Program is... Mayor Ferre: I think it is an interesting commentary.... that when Metro went from a Class of VII, VIII, IX to a Class IV it became a major headline in the Miami Herald and the Miami News. I have never seen in the Miami Herald any import= ant mention of the fact that the City of Miami is a class II city which the highest and a Class I Fire Department even though, you know we keep saying we're number one but I've never seen an editorial, I've never seen an article, I've never seen any mention of it in any important piece of Herald reporting so you know it just is another indication which I continually mention to our mentor, the Herald, that they're not objective in the approach to reporting as far as the City of Miami. Mr. Plummer: Chief, what is your present salary? Chief Brice: $43,000. Mr. Plummer: What is it projected in this budget to go to?: Chief Brice: The same. Mr. Plummer: No increase? Chief Brice: At this point there is none. Mr. Plummer: What does the Police Chief make? Chief Brice: The same range, I'm not sure what it is. Mr. Grassie: Well, possibly we should have some clarification.... I think we need some clarification on the question of executive salaries. The budget tradi- tionally includes a lump sum which has been called Reserve for Executive Pay or something like that. The Executive Pay Plan is reviewed annually, the last time it was reviewed was in February or May, in that period of funding. You know it takes some time to get around to see everybody. But in that period from February to May or those months it was all reviewed and most of the positions received some increase at that time. Mr. Plummer: Well, the reason I question it, Mr. Grassie, is it is well known that we control only basically two, that is the Law Department and the Clerk. and your's - we'll dealwith that one believe me. But I find this morning that Mr. Knox has provided in his budget for a pay increase but I found th absence of the Clerk providing for an increase in his budget. So that's why I was asking the question. Mr. Grassie: But if the City Commission does something in the case of the Clerk it would come out of that fund that I told you of. Mr. Plummer: I understand but we still, you know I'm trying to get right and right like Father says across the board and in one budget it is already built in and in the other one it is not. So I think that's the point I'm trying to get to. Rev. Gibson: This is not a criticism, I think this man is much better off, he is educated, he probably agrees. I would hope, I thought, I don't know how you run business I know how to run the church, that say like we have five departments, We have Fire, Police... Mr. Plummer: Sanitation, Public Works. Rev. Gibson: Chief, I know there's a number of years's you've worked and all that but I just thought you kind of work out a system where most of the headmen number one men would get a .... Chief Mc Cullough: The Executive Pay Plan provides for step raises with time and so forth and those are provided but not a pay increase perse. Mr. Plummer: Well, let me ask this question, we understand that. Do the execu- tives figure in a cost of living? Mr, Grassie; To the extent that the pay plan is adjusted across the board and all the ranges go up. It has been traditional with the City to adjust everybody's iminuinu 1 ui■i 1. n■i pay range and consequently their actual pay as these increases are given. Mayor Ferre: Are these your own figures, how do you figure cost of living? Mr. Grassie: Well, really what the City calls cost of living is not a cost of living increase it is a negotiated increase. In addition to that the pay plan for organized employees includes steps and they get these within range steps, not only the 5% increase unless they're at the top of that range. These get these in addition to what you call a cost of living and that is also true of people in the Executive Pay Plan, they get steps in addition to the cost of living. Mayor Ferre: Do you have any increases in this budget at all for what is called top management? Mr. Grassie: None are programmed in individual departments except I find, in the Law Department but they are in this fund that we talked about. Mrs. Gordon: How large is the fund? Mr. Grassie: I think it is $80,000. Mrs. Gordon: Where do we find it in Mr. Grassie: Special Accounts, Mayor Ferre: In other words.... we have what, 17 department heads .... None of the department heads and up, let's say the top 25 or 30 people in the pay scale of the City of Miami are programmed for an increase in this budget? here? Mr. Grassie: Well, the money is not set aside in the departments Mayor Ferre: Other than the $80,000 that's set aside other than.., Mr. Grassie: Other than the $80,000. Mayor Ferre: The $80,000 that's set aside, do you have to come to the Commission? Mr. Grassie: No. Mayor Ferre: I see. Rev. Gibson: Let me ask a question. I want to ask two questions.! so sure we have any control over the budget. Mr. Plummer: Oh yes we do. Rev. Gibson: Come on, J. L., you've got $80,000, suppose I want to give the Building Inspector Suppose I want to give him, I'm not so sure we have the control. Mayor Ferre: Yes, but you see the point is that the Charter doesn't give you that control and in this sense the Building Inspector doesn't work for the Commission he works for the Manager. Now where we have the control isn't here where we set the budget, now what we can do is alter the budget, on a line item for example we culd remove the $80,000 from the budget and we could reallocate it specifically but aside from that if you get to the specifically naming that the Police Chief will get an increase of "X" thousand dollars in my personal opinion that is a vio- lation of the Charter. Rev. Gibson: Mr. Mayor, I don't mean that, I don't mean that. I admit I don't know too much about business procedure but I know how churches raise salaries. There is nothing that will inhibit the Manager of reaching down in that kitty and taking care of certain people in certain departments unduly and unfairly. Mayor Ferre: That's his prerogative, that's what he's the Manager for. Rev. Gibson: Ok, then I don't control the budget, that's one. So therefore,.., Mr. Plummer: But what he's saying is true, we remove that $80,000 and put it into a contingency fund and then the Manager has to come back to the Commission with a proposal of where that $80,000 is going to go and we agree or disagree. Rev. Gibson: All tight, Mr. Mayor; all I'm saying is i want to agree with you in the theory but the practicality is the only way we can control this budget is to put that money in that fund you're talking about, J. L., and the way it is moved because all you have to do is to read some of the details of some of these records. Mayor Ferre: Well now let me ask you, how about stationary and office equipment because what we could do is take all the provisions for stationary and office equipment out of here and put it on a separate budget and then the Manager would have to come - no, obviously it is absurd, but I'm just showing you that you've got to be very careful how far you take this because in effect you're dealing with a $125,000,000 budget and I think that the Manager has a tremendous amount of latitude and prerogative within the budget as the governor of the State has within the budget that is adopted by the Legislature. Now, if what we're going to do here is restrict the Manager's actions then in effect what you're doing is you're restricting his ability to manage because if I'm the president of your corporation and this is the board of directors and you tell me, and I'm in charge of running the corporation on a day to day basis and you take away from me the prerogative as to what I pay my chief engineer or my chief accountant then my chief accountant reports to you and not to me... And how can I motivate my chief accountant to get to the office early tomorrow and work hard? Mrs. Gordon: That's not what he's saying. Rev. Gibson: That's not what I'm saying, Mr. Mayor. Mr. Plummer: Well, you still control hiring and firing, that the office in the morning. Rev. Gibson: All right, since I can't get that one I want to raise this question. Chief, if I were to go to New York of Philadelphia or Los Angeles, let's say we have a Fire Chief ... can I fee proud of your salary commensurate with the aver- age salary over the country? I'm trying to understand in light of what you told me about the paper, you know this pay business. Chief Brice: I think if you compare cities of our. size I think the answer is yes, you can be quite proud. Rev. Gibson: Okay, good, that's all I want. Mayor Ferre: I think that's a your opinion on the record for positions in the City of Miami 300,000 and 500,000, do we pay average? good question, let's expand that. Mr. Grassie, in the Commission, if you were to take the top 25 or 30 in comparison with other cities in the range between our top executives average, below average or above Mr. Grassie: For cities of our size? ...25 top positions, we are average, about average. We have I would say four positions that are a little below average and maybe three or four that are above average if you consider seniority.... Mayor Ferre: Well that's not bad. Rev. Gibscn: What are they thatare below? You know I'm only concerned that Miami will get the best of everything while I'm here. Now when I'm gone you could do what you want. Tell me what they are and not that I could do anything about it but at least I can walk around here hoping that one day it will come up, you know those four will be where the others are. And what I know is when men are adequately paid and are happy.... Mayor Ferre: And women. Rev. Gibson: You see in my thing man means mankind - Okay, women too. Okay. They aren't inclined to want to leave and what happens in the Law Department is if men are happy and are adequately paid then we aren't the training ground. Do you follow me? That's why I'm asking, tell me the four so I could walk around and say, "Oh God man, I'm going to keep on until you get up there with the other folk". Mr, Grassie: That was an estimate, Commissioner, I can look at the list of all of those..,. Rev, Gibson: Okay, before we get through the budget please tell me who' the four are, the four departments. Mayor Fette: Father, I would like if I may respectfully recommend that the Manager go do that and tell you and each of us individually rather than to do it, because otherwise that creates the type of problems.... Rev. Gibson: Beautiful, just so you tell me, I don't care whether you tell the other fellows, I want to be intelligent. Mayor Ferre: Well you tell all of us but you tell all of us individually. Ok? Rev. Gibson: Tell me who the four departments that are below average so that in the future as I sit at these tables and look at those guys I want to say Oh Lord, have mercy on your souls. I'd even give them an extra prayer. Mr. Plummer: Anything else in the Fire Department? I hate to say that you're excused but if we need you we'll call you back. We can go back now to the regular process since police are not here. Mrs. Gordon: We commend you and tell you we're proud of the work you're doing. We didn't give you an increase but we'll give you that.... 4, PRESENTATION OF PROPOSED BUDGET - CIVIL SERVICE Mr. Plummer: Mr. Krause, we'll ask you first for a brief overlay, if you were not here, I don't recall that you were, I asked two basic questions, was there anythinS cut out of your budget that you felt was very critical, the second question was where do you see flags of danger flying of potential financial problems in the com- ing year, you will address that in your brief overlay if it exists. Mr. Robert Krause: This is a relatively small department and it is a very conserva- tive budget for that reason. The budget and the staffing remains essentially the same as last year. As you know we've been operating the department without an Executive Secretary or an Assistant Executive Secretary. At the present time those positions are not required, under different circumstances one or more of the posi- tions might be required, that's the only kind of financial hazard that I can see. The budget is tight but I think it is adequate for the functions that we'll have. Rev. Gibson: Let me ask a question: When we were making up the budget last time we had quite a hassle about whether two jobs, you know one man will absorb two, you know. You c.n't have two bosses and two masters. Do you know what I'm talking about? Mr. Krause: Yes, sir. Rev. Gibson: How has that thing worked out? Oh, I know you're going to tell me, you know. Right away if you didn't tell me it works out all right you know I'd think that we ought to replace you. Do you know what I mean? But you know, how has that worked out? Mr. Krause: I think it has worked out very well. I've had a good working relation- ship with the Civil Service Board.... Mrs. Gordon: What do you get for that pay -wise? Mr. Krause: Nothing. I've had a good working relationship with the City Manager, I think that by combining the two jobs under the circumstances that exist in Miami makes it much more efficient and effective to get some of the work done. I don't have to argue that much with myself. Mr. Plummer: But what about the $25,000 that we've held in reserve in case in the wisdom of the Civil Service Board they want an executive secretary that has to be paid, is there a $25,000 reserve in this budget? Mr. Krause: Nc, sir. Rev. Gibson: Why not? Mr, Plummer: Well, it's going to be. Mr. Grassie: That's simply a matter of taking it out of contingency, basically what it is is a contingency either to put in here or you would have.,.. Rev, Gibson; I'd like to see it there. You know, one of the things I discovered is when it is in the contingency Gibson forgets, everybody else, you know. I move you, Mr. Mayor, that that salary item be expressely stated in the budget. Mr. Plummer: Mrs. Gordon, do you second the motion? Mrs. Gordon: Yes, it's ok with me. The following motion was introduced by Commissioner Gibson i who toiled its adoption: MOTION NO. 78-580 A MOTION AUTHORIZING AND DIRECTING THE CITY MANAGER TO INCLUDE AN AMOUNT NOT TO EXCEED $25,000 IN THE CIVIL SERVICE BUDGET TO PROVIDE A CONTINGENCY FOR POSSIBLE FUTURE APPOINTMENT OF AN EXECUTIVE SECRETARY. Upon being seconded by Commissioner Gordon, the motion was passed and adopted by the following vote: AYES: Rev. Gibson, Mrs. Gordon, Mr. Plummer and Mayor Ferre. NOES: None. ABSED.T: Mr. Reboso. ■ Mr. Plummer: All right, go ahead. Anything else, Mr. krause? Any questions of the Commission other than the ones asked? ■ Rev. Gibson: Wait a minute, if we were to, this is I think a legitimate question, having set aside that salary separate and apart, will we have the supporting staff or is there money in the budget provided for supporting staff should we ever want to separate? Mr. Plummer: Not us, Father, the board. Rev. Gibson: Well, the board is us too you know. Anyway, should it ever be sep- arated, let me put it this way - I can't go wrong this way - if it is ever separ- ated is there money in the budget for the supporting staff? Mr. Grassie: Yes, Commissioner, there is and if you look on page 48 you will find the positions that are provided for so you can see that there is supporting staff. Mayor Ferre: FLrthermore, if there is a separation there's no reason why the Commission cannot bring the subject up and the reallocation of funds from one department to another. Mr. Krause: There are six positions and that has been the staff that has supported me in my role as Executive Secretary, I think that would be adequate for anybody else who was doing the job on a full time basis. Mr. Plummer: Are you using any CETA employees in Civil Service at the present time? 0