HomeMy WebLinkAboutCC 1979-02-22 MinutesI
OF MIAMI
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77
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MINUTES
O Kunz ND I February 22, 1979
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RALPH G. OIGIE
CITY CLERK
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1.
FILM PRESENTATION "MIAMI, THE NEW WORLD CENTER" BY
THE DEPARTMENT OF TOURISM PROMOTION.
2. DOWNTOWN PEOPLE MOVER - Alternate Routes
3. DISCUSSION OF "RAPID TRANSIT STATIONS -JOINT DEVELOPMENT'
4. PRESENTATION OF THE REVISED DOWNTOWN GOVERNMENT CENTER
MASTER PLAN.
3. 1DISCUSSION OF THE CONCEPT OF A "LATIN QUARTER" FOR THE
CITY OF MIAMI.
6. DISCUSSION OF PORNOGRAPHY AND PROSTITUTION ON BISCAYNE
BOULEVARD.
7. PRESENTATIONS, PROCLAMATIONS AND SPECIAL ITEMS.
8. DISCUSSION OF THE CONCEPT OF A "WATERFRONT TRUST."
9. DEFERRAL OF CONSIDERATION OF ACCEPTANCE OF "FINANCIAL
PLAN" FOR THE CITY OF MIAMI'S CONFERENCE/CONVENTION
CENTER AND GARAGE.
10. (PERSONAL APPEARANCE BY GUY BAILEY IN CONNECTION WITH
THE "BALL POINT" LITIGATION.
11.
ESTABLISH "CITY OF MIAMI HEALTH FACILITIES AUTHORITY".
12. SECOND READING ORDINANCE: AMEND CHAPTER 56 OF THE CITY
OF MIAMI CODE- PROVIDE NEW SECTION, SEC. 56-59.1
REQUIRING THAT EACH TAXICAB LICENSED BY THE CITY BE
EQUIPPED WITH A DEVICE KNOWN AS "DROP SAFE".
13. FIRST READING ORDINANCE: AMEND SECTION 56-30 OF THE
CITY OF MIAMI CODE- REQUIRE A PERMANENT INSTALLATION
OF A BULLET••RESISTANT PLATE OR PARTITION ISOLATING
DRIVER FROM REAR SEAT PASSENGER AREA IN ALL TAXICABS.
14. MOTION OF COMMENDATION TO SGT. CAMPBELL, POLICE DEPART-
MENT FOR OUTSTANDING CONTRIBUTION TO DEPARTMENT & CITY.
15. (SECOND ANNUAL "OPEN HOUSE 8" FESTIVAL.
16. PUBLIC HEARING- DENIAL OF .APPLICATION BY M.R.S. PROPER-
TIES, INC. TO CHANGE ZONING OF N.E. CORNER OF N.W. 53RD
STREET AND 7TH AVENUE FROM C-1 TO C-4.
17. (a) AUTHORIZE CITY MANAGER TO SUBMIT GRANT APPLICATION
TO U.S. DEPT. OF HUD FOR COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT FUNDS;
and (b) AUTHORIZE ADMINISTRATION OT FUND COCONUT GROVE
LEGAL SERVICES FROM OVERALL FY 78-79 COMMUNITY DEVELOP-
MENT ALLOCATION FOR COCONUT GROVE.
18. AUTHORIZE CITY MANAGER TO EMPLOY: DEMARCHE ASSOCIATES
AS FINANCIAL ADVISORS TO TRUSTEES OF THE MIAMI CITY
GENERAL EMPLOYEES RETIREMENT PLAN TO MEASURE INVESTMENT
PERFORMANCE & AUDIT OR PLANS PORTFOLIO.
DISCUSSION
DISCUSSION
DISCUSSION
DISCUSSION
M- 79-88
M- 79-89
M-79-90 Pag.44
M-79-91 Pag.58
PRESENTATION
M- 79-92
DISCUSSION
DISCUSSION
R- 79-93
ORD. 8897
FIRST READING
M- 79-94
R- 79-95
M- 79-4
M-79-97 Pag.120
R- 79-98
R- 79-99
1-2
3-16
17-28
29
29-35
35-59
60-61
61-80
81-86
87-95
95-108
109
109-11
114-158
159
CiIY
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19. APPROVE EMPLOYMENT OF PAN AMERICAN BANK, N.A. TO PROVIDE
CUSTODIAL SERVICES FOR THE PORTFOLIO OF THE CITY OF
MIAMI GENERAL EMPLOYEES RETIREMENT PLAN.
20.
21.
22.
SECOND READING ORDINANCE: AMEND CITY OF MIAMI EMPLOYEES
RETIREMENT SYSTEM AND PROVIDE FOR PAYBACK PROCEDURE OR
SERVICE CREDITS FOR MILITARY LEAVE.
FIRST READING ORDINANCE: AMEND CITY OF MIAMI EMPLOYEES
RETIREMENT SYSTEM PROVIDING THAT EMPLOYEES OF RETIRE-
MENT SYSTEM SHALL BE EMPLOYEES OF THE BOARD; PROVIDE FOR
TRANSFER OF ADMINISTRATIVE FUNCTIONS TO A PROFESSIONAL
PENSION ADMINISTRATION, ACCOUNTING, ETC.
FIRST READING ORDINANCE: AMEND CITY OF MIAMI EMPLOYEES
RETIREMENT PLAN- PROVIDE THAT EMPLOYEES OF THE RETIRE-
MENT PLAN SHALL BE EMPLOYEES OF THE BOARD; PROVIDE FOR
TRANSFER OF ADMINISTRATION FUNCTIONS TO A PROFESSIONAL
PENSION ADMINISTRATION, ACCOUNTING ETC.
23. DEFERRAL OF ACCEPTANCE OF BID: JULES BROTHERS UNIFORMS,
INC. (Uniforms for the Police Department).
24. AUTHORIZE CITY MANAGER TO EXECUTE AMENDATORY AGREEMENT
(/2 - RESTAURANT ASSOCIATES INDUSTRIES OF FLORIDA, INC.
FOR LEASE OF RESTAURANT FACILITY AT MIAMARINA.
25. PUBLIC HEARING: JAMESTOWN CENTER: (a) CLOSURE OF STREETS
(b) PRIVATE CLUB (c) VARIANCE ON F.A.R.
26. PUBLIC HEARING: GRANTING OF APPEAL BY JAMES G. ROBERTSON
OVERRULE ZONING BOARD'S DENIAL OF VARIANCE TO PERMIT A
STRUCTURE ON TENTATIVE PLAT i/1027 "JAMESTOWN CENTER"
'ITH A .177 FLOOR AREA RATIO.
27.
UBLIC HEARING: VACATION AND CLOSURE OR CLARK CT. AND
EL MONDE STREET, AS PER TENTATIVE PLAT #1027- "JAMES-
OWN CENTER".
28. RANT APPEAL BY JAMES G. ROBERTSON OF ZONING BOARD'S
DENIAL OF CONDITIONAL USE OT PERMIT A 5,000 SQ. FT.
RIVATE CLUB ON PROPERTY BEING TENTATIVE PLAT #1027-
'JAMESTOWN CENTER", SUBJECT TO REMOVAL OF OLD CLUB.
29. 'EFERRAL OF CONS:DERATION OF PUBLIC HEARING ON THE
ACATION AND CLOSURE OF N.W. 37TH STREET BETWEEN WEST
IGHT-OF-WAY LINE OF N.W. 5TH AVENUE AND EAST RIGHT -OF -
AY LINE OF 36TH STREET INTERGHANGE (TENTATIVE PLAT
/682-A "SPEAR AND FELDSTEIN SUB").
30. PUBLIC HEARING: REFER MATTER OF PROPOSED AGREEMENT WITH
BISCAYNE RECREATION INC. FOR OPERATION/DEVELOPMENT OF
DINNER KEY MARINA TO THE MIAMI WATERFRONT BOARD FOR
DELIBERATION AND RECOMMENDATION TO THE CITY COMMISSION.
R- 79-100
ORD. 8898
FIRST READING
FIRST READING
DISCUSSION
R- 79-101
DISCUSSION
R- 79-102
R- 79-103
R- 79-104
DISCUSSION
M- 79-105
159
160
161-162
163
163-167
167
168-186
186
187
187-188
188
189-209
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31.
32.
33.
34.
35.
36.
DISCUSSION -REFER CONSIDERATION OF PROPOSED AGREEMENT
WITH NEW WORLD MARINAS INC. FOR OPERATION OF MIAMARINA
TO THE MIAMI WATERFRONT BOARD FOR THEIR DELIBERATION
AND RECOMMENDATIONS TO THE CITY COMMISSION.
PUBLIC HEARING: CONFIRM ASSESSMENT ROLL FOR CON-
STRUCTION OF DOUGLAS SANITARY SEWER IMPROVEMENT
SR-5304-C.
PUBLIC HEARING: CONFIRM ASSESSMENT ROLL FOR CON-
STRUCTION OF DOUGLAS SANITARY SEWER IMPROVEMENT
SR-5304-S (Sideline).
Mlle HEARING: CONFIRM ASSESSMENT ROLL FOR CON-
STRUCTION OF S.W. 8TH AVENUE SIDEWALK IMPROVEMENT
SK-4387.
ZLBLIC HEARING: CONFIRM ORDERING RESOLUTION 78-792
AT) AUTHORIZE THE CITY CLERK TO ADVERTISE FOR SEALED
E:"S FOR THE CONSTRUCTION OF SOUTH BAY SANITARY SEWER
1 "ROVE NT SR-5454-C.
FEEL.':ION OF CONDOLENCES TO THE FAMILY OF PATRICIO
MEKIS, MAYOR OF SANTIAGO, CHILE ON THE SAD OCCASION
OF THE MAYOR'S UNTIMELY DEATH.
M- 79-106
R- 79-107
R- 79-108
R- 79-109
R- 79-110
R- 79-111
210-211
211
212
212
213
213
MINUTES OF REGULAR MEETING OF THE
CITY COMMISSION OF MIAMI, FLORIDA
On the 22nd day of February, 1979, the City Commission of
Miami, Florida met at its regular meeting place in the City
Hall, 3500 Pan American Drive, Miami, Florida in regular session.
The meeting was called to order at 9:07 O'Clock A.M. by
Mayor Maurice A. Ferre with the following members of the
Commission found to be present:
Commissioner Ro4e Gordon
Commiaaionen Armando Lacasa
Commiaaioneh (Rev.) Theodore Gibson
Vice -Mayo& J. L. Ptummen, Jn.
Mayon Mauni.ce A. Fen&e
ALSO PRESENT:
Joseph R. Gnassie, City Manager
R. L. Fosmoen, Assistant City Manage&
Geo&ge F. Knox, City Attonney
Ratph G. OngLe, City Ctenk
Matty Assistant City Cte&k
An invocation was delivered by Reverend Gibson who then
led those present in a pledge of allegiance to the flag.
A motion to waive the reading of the minutes and to approve
the minutes of the Regular Meeting and the Planning and Zoning
Meeting of December 14, 1978 was introduced by Vice -Mayor J. L.
Plummer, seconded by Commissioner Armando Lacasa and passed by
a unanimous vote.
1. FILM PRESENTATION "MIAMI, THE NEW WORLD CENTER" BY
THE DEPARTMENT OF TOURISM PROMOTION.
Mayor Ferre: Good morning ladies and gentlemen, this is a Regular City of
Miami Commission Meeting. Today is George Washington's Birthday and I hope
that we in local government remember the patterns that have been established
in this great republic for many years and that we're true to the concept of
the Democratic Process that we have lived under and I think we'll see an awful
lot of that functioning today.
Mr. Plummer: If you want to sit in a cherry tree, Mr. Mayor, I have a hatchet.
Mr. Mayor, excuse me, prior to starting I think it is very seldom that I get
to speak for Rose Gordon but I have to inform you, sir, that it is most impor-
tant that both of us must walk out of this auditorium at 8:00 O'Clock this even-
ing. It would be better for earlier but we have to walk out at 8:00 O'Clock.
Mayor Ferre: Mr. Plummer, I might remind you that the main determinant on
that is is yourself depending on how much you talk today.
Mr. Plummer: I was here on time, Mr. Mayor.
Mayor Ferre: I'm not talking about the time factor I'm talking about who talks.
All right, we're now on Item "A", showing a seven minute film. Lew?
Mr. Lew Price: Members of the Commission, Mr. Manager, one of the, in promot-
ing the Miami area around the world one of the activities utilized by the De-
partment of Tourism Promotion is that of making movies and our latest, we try
to make one movie a year to be shown to TV audiences, to tourist audiences
1 FEB22
on airplanes and so forth. Our latest movie is called "Miami, the New World
Center". It depicts the rebirth of the downtown Miami area and it runs seven
minutes and I think this is the first time it's been shown and I'd just like
to let you view it for your opinion.
THEREUPON AN AUDIO VISUAL PRESENTATION WAS MADE.
Mr. Price: I'm sorry it wasn't a little darker here because if the room was
a little darker you'd get to see the full benefit of the color.
Mayor Ferre: Lew, you don't have to apologize it's a very nice film.
Mr. Price: We think it does a credit to what we're trying to accomplish in
the downtown area.
FEB 22
2. DOWNTOWN PEOPLE MOVER- Alternate Routes
Mayor Ferre: All right, we are now on Item B which is the discussion of the
Downtown People Mover alternate routes.
Ms. Ellen Wacher: Good morning, my name is Ellen Wacher, I'm with Metropol-
itan Dade County's Office of Transportation Administration. I'm here today
with Simon Zweighaft who is the Project Manager for Dade County for the Down-
town People Mover,or the DPM as we call it, project. As you all know, since
two of you serve on the Downtown People Mover Policy Committee, important
decisions must be made quickly to enable us to take advantage of the Urban
Mass Transit Administration's reallocations of available DPM dollars and Mr.
Zweighast is here today for a status update of the alternative alignments.
I have some papers to hand out and then Simon is coming right up.
Mr. Simon Zweighaft: If you don't mind, I'll speak from this microphone
rather then over there because I want to see the slides as they go up so that
I kncw what I'm supposed to say. While Ellen is passing out the....
Mr. Ongie: Your name for the record, please.
Mr. Zweighaft: Oh, I'm sorry, Simon Zweighaft. I'm the Project Manager for
the Downtown People Mover Project, I'm an employee of Dade County. While Ellen
is passirg out the material and they're setting the slide projector up there
I'll Excuse me. I want to run through just a very quick background
on the Previous work on the DPM Project and then we'll run through some slides
of soar of -..he potential DPM systems and then we'll present to you the align-
ments which are currently under consideration to give you a little idea of the
schedule that we're going to try to meet. In April of 1976 UMTA announced
their intention - UMTA is the Urban Mass Transit Administration of the U. S.
Department of Transportation, the federal agency which funds major transporta-
tion projects across the country. In April of 1976 they announced their inten-
tion to fund a series of Downtown People Mover systems, automated fixed guide-
way systems for downtown areas across the country and they invited cities from
across the country to submit proposals for Downtown People Movers. Some 60
cities expressed interest in the People Mover Project, 57 cities responded to
UMTA with proposals and UMTA spent the latter part of 1976 evaluating proposals.
Miami was among those cities and in May and June of 1976 the County and City
staffs worked together to submit a joint proposal of the City and the County
to UMTA. On June 4th of 1976 we had a joint Commission Meeting of the City of
Miami Commission and the Dade County Commission at which time alignment alter-
natives which had been studied back in 1976 were presented and the Commission
adopted a specific alignment which has been used as the starting point in the
current studies, we'll show you that alignment in the slides that follow. In
December of 1976 UMTA announced that they had screened these 57 proposals down
to a list of finalists and their list of finalists were four cities: Cleveland,
Los Angeles, Houston and St. Paul, Minnesota who were to be the grantees for
special People Mover funds which would be granted to cities across the country.
In addition, however, they held the door open for Miami, Baltimore and Detroit
and they did this by telling us and Detroit and Baltimore that they would be
willing to let us use moneys which had previously been allocated to major trans-
portation projects, if sufficient funding could be arranged they would allow
us to use those moneys in addition to funding our Rapid Transit Systems or
People Mover Systems. In Detroit this wasn't much of a problem for them because
they didn't have a Rapid Transit proposal at the time, a specific Rapid Transit
proposal and so Detroit decided that they would indeed do that, build both a
Rapid Transit System and a People Mover System. In Baltimore their Rapid Transit
proposal was very far advanced and they determined that they could not reallo-
cate Rapid Transit money to People Mover Systems and, therefore, Baltimore drop-
ped out of the program. In Miami we were faced with a somewhat different sit-
uation. We had a rather well advanced Rapid Transit proposal, however, it
wasn't so well advanced that we couldn't, say, sharpen our pencils and do a
little arithmetic with our cost estimates. We determined that from our Rapid
3
FEB 22
•
Transit funds we could take $19,000,000 of federal money matched by $5,000,000
of local money and assign a sort of a starting package of $24,000,000 to the
Downtown People Mover Project. On the basis of that we informed tflTA that we
wished to move ahead with at least preliminary engineering for the Downtown
People Mover and we prepared an application and in May of 1978 UMTA funded our
application for $1,200,000 to carry out a preliminary engineering program for
the Downtown People Mover. We hired the firm of Gannet, Flemming, Cordry and
Carpenter of Harrisburg, Pennsylvania joint ventured with SKBB, local archi-
tects, to conduct the preliminary engineering. They have nine sub -contractors
working for them also and they began work on preliminary engineering for the
People Mover on November 6, 1976. Now all of this is outlined in a little bit
more detail in the Executive Summary which we've passed out, we had sent copies
of the Executive Summary over to you at an earlier date also. In January of
1978 Dade County decided that the decisions on the People Mover were of such
a significance that it would be necessary to have a high level policy committee
participate in the planning process for the People Mover and, therefore, the
County Commission appointed a Policy Committee consisting of two County Commis-
sioners, two City Commissioners and representatives, a large number of repre-
sentatives of the private sector with interest in the downtown area to parti-
cipate in the planning process and to review the work of the consultants as
that work went along, this is the Downtown People Mover Policy Committee and
Mayor Ferre and Vice -Mayor Plummer both sit on that committee. The planning
process which the DPM Policy Committee is running through is shown on the sin-
gle sheet hand-out with seven Milestones along the side that we gave you and
that will give you an idea of the process which we expect to run through for
tho DPM Policy Committee between now and May. And basically the decisions
that are being run through by the Policy Committee form six milestones. The
first milestone is to establish a set of goals and objectives and a ranking of
activity centers in the downtown area to form the basis for new alignment stud-
ies. What we're trying to do is determine whether the Downtown People Mover
System which was proposed in 1976 should have modifications to its alignments.
The second milestone they reviewed a wide range of alternative alignments pre-
pared by t:,•: consultants and narrowed those down to six. That's the point we
stand at today. Our consultants are currently considering six alignment alter-
natives and they expect to report back to the Policy Committee on Saturday of
this week with their recommendations regarding the six alignment alternatives.
From there, the third milestone this Saturday and hopefully confirmed by a
joint County Commission public hearing on March 9th, hopefully we will narrow
these six alignments down to a single alignment and from there examine simply
the first stage project which we would intend to proceed with. The fourth mile-
stone will examine alternative first stages, the fifth milestone will select
the first stage and the sixth milestone we will prepare and present to the Pol-
icy Committee and then the Commissions an implementation proposal for the
DPM System for Miami. After Milestone VI we'll have public hearings and pre-
suming we have an endorsement from the City and County Commissions we'll go
back to UMTA with a full project proposal. Our project proposal will consist
only of a DPM alignment and station recommendations, we are not in the position
to recommend system technology. The reason for this is that UMTA's guidelines
for participating in the People Mover Program are that system technology will
be determined as a result of competitive bidding among the manufacturers of
the various People Mover Systems which are available. The selected system
manufacturers will conduct final design and construction fcr their system and
they will actually be responsible for the implementation once the preliminary
engineering of the program is finished. So before outlining the six alignments
currently under study I want to run through a set of slides of six various
systems, DPM systems which are currently identified by UMTA as meeting their
requirements for system suppliers.
Mayor Ferre: As we do that, I wonder if I could ask something of you. I under-
wtand that not all six of these systems are at the same level of advancement,
the art of the science, I know that that is kind of a subjective thing to do.
Mr. Zweighaft: No, that's quite true though.
Mayor Ferre: Let me tell you what concerns me greatly. I happen to have been
convinced, as I'm sure you know, four or five years ago by Maurice Helper and
what I saw was being planned in Atlanta during the process and subsequently
with Jack Orr when Jack Orr was Mayor. I spent a lot of time going over this
with Jack Orr and there's no question that the People Mover to me is as impor-
tant and perhaps even maybe more important than the Rapid Transit because what
it really does is it makes one area out of a fairly large area. One of the
keys to the people because it's a lot less expensive system to put tap on a
per mile basis and as I understand, the going figures now ar. about $30,000,000
per mile.
4 FEB 22
per mile
Mr. Zweighaft: Roughly, it's a good rough figure.
Mayor Ferre: It's a rough figure, everything included $30.000,000 a mile.
And one of the real keys is that eventually we may want to tie the People Mover
to the redevelopment of South Beach, Watson Island - hopefully we'll be off with
our Watson Island Project one of these days - and then on to the Beach. I think
it is very important as I understand it that the vehicle be able to move from
where these small slow moving things to accelerate at least to 40 m.p.h. I
understand that some of these vehicles are able to do it, others are not able
to do it.
Mr. Zweighaft: I'd have to run through the six to be sure where they stand,
yes, it's true that some could reach a 40 m.p.h. speed safely and others it
would be quite a trick.
Mayor Ferre: Well, I guess what I'm trying to say is that as we go through
the process I think we in the Commission ought to kind of know who are the com-
panies that have the most advanced technology so that we don't get caught in
a situation where we're going to be bound by a system which is not going to be
easy to expand.
Mr. Zweighaft: I think today when I run through these, generally I've set the
slides up from the most advanced technology to the least advanced technology.
We can have the lights.
Mayor Ferre: Somebody turn off the lights.
Mx. Zweighaft: I think everybody in the People Mover industry would agree that
the most advanced of all the systems and the one that's received the most engi-
neering study to date and probably has the most successful deployments is the
Westinghouse Transit Expressway. Shown here is an installati'n of the Transit
Expressway at Busch Gardens in Williamsburg, Virginia where the system runs
between the Busch Gardens Amusement Park and the Annhauser Busch Brewery up
there. May we have the next slide, please?
Maayor FE1:L: How long is that rail?
Mr. Zweighaft: I'm not sure that we have it, somebody here will have a little
booklet that will have that data and look that up, I would guess that's about
a mile.
Mr. Plummer: You've got it in front of you right there.
Mayor Ferre: Well I guess my question is this: The only systems that I know
of - Westinghouse - are Tampa Airport and the one we're putting here in Miami.
Mr. Zweighaft: All right. The Westinghouse systems are Busch Gardens, Tampa
Airport, Miami Airport, Seattle Airport, they're putting one in at Atlanta
Airport and I believe they've been selected to put one in at Orlando Airport.
Mayor Ferre: Well I guess my question is not where it's at but have they done
anything than you know a half a mile or a mile?
Mr. Zweighaft: No, their total lengths are all rather short systems, I think
maybe a mile and a half or two miles would be the longest although the Seattle
Airport is a rather complicated system with two loops and the two loops are
connected by a shuttle that goes back and forth. All right, Busch Gardens is
1.3 miles. This is a cross section of the Westinghouse system, one of the prob-
lems that we've identified already in our preliminary engineering studies with
the Westinghouse system is that it's a rather large vehicle system and when
you're trying to put this on downtown city streets that's a rather complicated
problem. The guideway is 8k feet wide for a single track and you've got to at
least double that and put a foot or two in between for a double track so you're
20 feet or more for a double track guideway. The cars are 30 feet long and
have a hundred passengers, it's a rather massive sort of a thing.
Mayor Ferre: Standing up, a hundred standing up?
Mr. Zweighaft: A hundred standing up, yes. The next slide, please. You can
either put seats in or have all standings, this is at Tampa Airport. Of course,
if you have seats you're going to reduce the total capacity of the vehicle. I
would presume in Miami though we will have some seats in our People Mover Sys-
tems, we're not currently, we don't appear to be at a range where we have
5 FEB22
1 1
serious capacity problems because our system is used throughout the day rather
than like a Rapid Transit System only in peak hours. This is the Tampa Airport
System, you can see the People Mover runs actually into the buildings, we ex-
pect to have some of this in the Miami installation and, of course, Miami Air-
port will be the same - it runs into the International Terminal and into the
Federal Services Building. Next slide, please. This is another slide of the
single track guideway at Busch Gardens to give you an idea of the size of a
single track and, of course a double track guideway is a little bit more than
twice the size of that. Next slide. Okay, that is a quick view of the Miami
Airport installation. When Miami airport opens the People Mover System about
three four months from now and you have an opportunity I suggest everybody
would be interested in riding out there and taking a ride on the system, you'd
get a very good idea of the kind of a system we're talking about although I
must point out that in an airport type of installation they have a lot more
room to put the guideway in because they don't mind putting a 20 foot wide walk-
way in between the two directions of the guideway. There is a very wide walk-
way and a very massive structure but the vehicle system is essentially the same.
Next slide. This is in terms of route length the longest of all the systems
which have been installed, this is the Dallas/Fort Worth Airport Air Trans Sys-
tem which is manufactured by LTV, Ling, Tempco, Voit and this system is in
total I believe about 13 miles in length and it consists of a couple of loops
that run through parking lots and an inter -connecting link. The Air Trans Sys-
tem is somewhat smaller than the Westinghouse System. Could we have the next
slide, please? However, its guideway is slightly wider because it is supported
on the guideway from the outside rather than the inside like the Westinghouse
System. Tne vehicles are a little bit smaller though, they carry about 45 or
50 people
Mayor Ferre: Let me ask you this because I was in Dallas last Thursday and I
had about an hour in between and I really spent hour just going around in cir-
cles trying to - which some people say I usually do anyway - but I went around
this thing really for an hour and it has very very abrupt movements. It jerks
when it gets started, it stops very abruptly and it slows down, it is not a
smooth type of a thing.
Mr. Zweighaft: That's something we can specili in our performance specifications
for the sy:`_em, how fast it accelerates and decellerates and how fast it changes
its rate of acceleration are thing we can control in our system. I presume that
at Dallas/Fort Worth what they're trying to achieve is a very very quick service
between two points and so they've opted for high acceleration and high rate of
change of acceleration rates.
Mayor Ferre: In between the terminals it seems to go fairly fast, I estimated
about 25-30 miles an hour.
Mr. Zweighaft: Yes, it would run at about a maximum speed of about 30 m.p.h.
Mayor Ferre: Yes, but very rough. It is not a nice smooth ride.
Mr. Zweighaft: The Westinghouse Systems in general to my experience are a lit-
tle bit more advanced than that but I don't think there is any reason why the
LTV System can't meet performance specifications that set up that way. The
next slide has an example again of the single track guideway of LTV and I think
the slide following this - if we can have that - is maybe a better example of
about the size of the single track guideway. Most of the slides that I have
show only one-way guideways, I think there are a couple towards the end that
will show two and you'll see why we're concerned about the size of this guide-
way. Okay, the next system, I don't have very many slides of this unfortun-
ately although I've had plenty of opportunity to ride the system, it's the
Morgantown/University of West Virginia installation. This is the only People
Moving System to date that's been fully sponsored by UMTA, they actually paid
for the installation, the system runs between two university campuses, they
have a downtown campus and a suburban campus in a very hilly area and it is by
far the most sophisticated of the systems, however, it 's sophisticated in
operational concept doesn't necessarily mean the most advanced technology.
The vehicles are smaller than either the LTV or the Westinghouse vehicles and
the system is set up so that the vehicles run between any pair of stations by-
passing all other stations. When you get on a vehicle it's like pressing an
elevator button, you run directly from station number one to station number
three without stopping at station number two and it requires a very complicated
kind of operation. Next slide, please. Okay, now the first three systems,
Westinghouse, LTV and Boeing Systems are basically the big three manufacturers
6
FEB 22
of People Movers in this country, they're the three big corporations. These
other systems are less developed technologically at this point and yet are
still viewed as having the potential to meet Downtown People Mover needs.
This is a German system called Cabintaxi, as one word, developed by Demog MSH,
in Germany. It's a very large German company, we're trying to install a sys-
tem like this. There is one installed and this is a picture of it operating
at Ziggenheim Hospital in Germany and they're attempting now to install a sec-
ond system in Hamburg. Next slide, please. The Cabintaxi differs from the
other systems in that it is a suspended system rather than an under -running
supportive system and actually when they run a two-way guideway they build the
supporting system on top of this so one direction is on the bottom and another
direction is on the top. They have two sizes of vehicles, one relatively small
20 or so passenger vehicle and then they have under development a rather accept-
able large 45 or 50 passenger vehicle. Next slide, please. This is another
example of the Cabintaxi installation at Ziggenheim Hospital. They run again
between a pair of hospital buildings. Next slide.
Mayor Ferre: You didn't tell us the speed of these things.
Mr. Zweighaft: That one would be quite a slow speed system, I would presume
less than ten miles an hour. Now the system if we can go back to that slide,
yes - the system with the largest number of installations of any system is the
Universal Mobility's Unimobile. That is currently strictly an amusement park
ride type system and yet it meets all of the specifications that UMTA has es-
tablished for the People Mover Systems. It can operate fully automatic. This
has been installed at perhaps a dozen or more amusement parks throughout the
country, unfortunately none very close to us here in Miami - there's Lion
Country Safari in Virginia and several out on the west coast, there's a new
installation, the most sophisticated of their installations going in at the
new Minneapolis Zoo. This system only runs currently at very slow speeds, 7
to 10 m.p.h. although they are attempting now to demonstrate technology which
would bring them up to the higher speeds of the other systems and it has, the
characteristic that we like about this particular system is that it has the nar-
rowest guideway of all, and now if we go to the guideway here, for a one-way
guideway - next slide, please - for a one-way guideway the guide beam itself
on which the monorail vehicle sits is only 25 inches wide as compared with ten
feet or something like that, five times that width for the other systems. Next
slide. And here is a couple of other slides of
Mayor Ferre: And what was the speed on this?
Mr. Zweighaft: It runs very very slowly, only about seven m.p.h. in the cur-
rent installations. All the installations they have now, it is as a touring
type vehicle, you get a tape recorded message as you ride the vehicle.
Mayor Ferre: Is this the one they have at Disney World?
Mr. Zweighaft: No, that's coming up next. Okay, another Universal Mobility
slide. Okay, at Walt Disney World, if we can have the next slide, the quali-
fying system is not the Disney Land Monorail that most people envision, it is
the Weddway, and Weddway is an open air vehicle system, the whole guideway is
covered because the vehicles are open air here. There's the guideway, and if
we could have the next slide, the unique feature of the Weddway System is the
vehicles do not stop at the stations, rather the stations contain a rotating
platform and the passengers for each train come up and step onto the rotating
platform and then onto the vehicle and then into their seat on the vehicle.
This runs through Walt Disney World and they're developing more sophisticated
systems for urban applications. However, this is also a very slow moving
kind of a system as you can imagine from their open air kind of configuration.
I believe that runs through all the six - Jim, if I could just check the next
slide. Okay, now I have some artists' renderings from Los Angeles. Miami is
basically, our basic posture right now is we don't believe that $24,000,000 is
going to be sufficient to build a first stage system that will satisfy every-
body and so we are attempting to try and get some additional funding for the
Miami Downtown People Mover. Of the 4 cities that UMTA originally put into
the People Mover Program, Los Angeles, St. Paul, Minnesota, Houston and Cleve-
land, only Los Angeles and St. Paul have really progressed very far. In Cleve-
land they have decided to give up on the concept of building the People Mover
System and have told UMTA that they will not be using $41,000,000 which was
allocated to Cleveland for their People Mover System. In Houston they appear
to want to progress with the People Mover System, however, they've been stalled
by a changing governmental structure for all of transportation in Houston,
they've just created a regional transportation authority and the People Mover
studies in Houston haven't really begun. So UMTA has basically announced
'� FEB22
4
that they're going to be reallocating at least Cleveland's money and perhaps
some other moneys to the People Mover Programs of the other cities. Miami,
in order to get extra funds stands basically in competition with Los Angeles
and St. Paul to try and achieve these funds and Houston if they move along
also so I thought you'd be interested in seeing some of the work that's going
on in Los Angeles, I don't have anything from St. Paul at the moment. This
is an artist's rendering of the People Mover System in Los Angeles in front
of the Los Angeles City Hall. I'm not sure of the street that this runs on,
that's the Century Plaza Hotel in Los Angeles and here you can see, what Los
Angeles is proposing is essentially a double track guideway system that at
certain points along their system will split into single track guideway in
order to minimize the visual intrusion. I imagine that our consultants will
be proposing something similar.
Mayor Ferre: Have they chosen the corporation, the manufacturer yet?
Mr. Zweighaft: No, they expect to begin to enter that process within the next
four months I would say so their studies are about six months advanced over
Miami's right now. As I started to say, we expect to probably have the same
kind of recommendation, we will have some double tracked structure and we'll
split the guideway on streets that are narrow so that we can run the single
track guideway on narrower streets. This is Pershing Square right in the heart
of downtown Los Angeles, the Biltmore Hotel is on the left and unfortunately
you can't see much of the DPM from the side, maybe Jack, you could point out
that it runs - yes, up that street and then makes a right angle turn with a
station in Pershing Square and then ramps around the Biltmore Hotel there.
This is an artist's rendering of the single track guidway on a downtown street
in Detroit. Detroit studies are just about at the same status of Miami, they're
not really in the same situation of seeking additional funds, however, since
UMTA has already made a commitment of $600,000 for both DPM and Rapid Transit
System in Detroit and they've still not progressed with the Rapid Transit por-
tion of their work. Okay. In 1976 as I mentioned before we had adopted an
alignment, I think I'd better go over these alignment charts now and run through
these things a little bit.
Mayor Ferre: That microphone is movable if you just grab it and take it with
you, I think the cord will go that far.
Mr. Zweighaft: In 1976 as I mentioned earlier we had the opportunity to make
a proposal to UMTA and the decision was made that we would make a proposal
jointly with the City of Miami so the City's staff and the County's staff co-
operatively developed this alignment after quite a bit of study and basically
we worked from several areas The City's Wallace McHarg Master Plan
the state had financed a study by which directed itself
not only to DuPont Plaza but also to People Mover schemes and we have had Kaiser
Engineers on the Rapid Transit System do a People Mover study. We worked
for roughly a two month period building on those previous studies and came up
with this alignment and essentially it consisted of a loop around the downtown
area running north/south on Biscayne Boulevard, east/west on 5th Street, north/
south again on the FEC Railroad right-of-way, east on S.W. 1st Street and fur-
ther east on S.E. 2nd Street. We had a leg along Brickell Avenue down to
Brickell Avenue Rapid Transit Station at 10th Street and a leg north along
Biscayne Boulevard up to Omni. We gave this to our consultant engineers as a
starting point for their alignments. Now these are lines prepared by Gannet
Flemming as a part of the DPM preliminary engineering program. Milestone 8
is essentially the same as the 1976 proposal, the only difference is that the
Government Center configuration has changed since 1976 and no longer made sense
to have two People Mover Stations in the Government Center so we consolidated
two stations into one at the Government Center Rapid Transit Station but other
than that Alignment "A" is exactly .the same as the 1976 alignment. If you have
difficulty following this incidentally, you have a set of each of the align-
ments in front of you now. Alignment "C" - now you have 13 alignments at rough-
ly this level of detail and the Policy Committee reduced those 13 to 6 align-
ments which I'm running through now. Alignment "C" is generally the same as
Alignment "A" with a couple of modifications; one is fewer stations on the
north leg - we had four stations in the original proposal on the north leg,
Alignment "C" only has two. As an option, for example, they brought the east/
west leg down to 4th Street, the north/south leg here stays on the FEC right-
of-way - the north/south leg here stays on Biscayne Boulevard but the South leg
off the loop now runs along Miami Avenue Road which is one block west of Bis-
cayne Boulevard, one block west of Brickell Avenue.
Mayor Ferre: Excuse me, would you tell us what the green, is the green area
the normal walking distance?
8
FEB 22
Mr. Zweighaft: Ok, yes. The large green area is the normal walking distance,
approximately a 600 foot radius from the station.
Mayor Ferre: Wait a minute, 600 feet, in other words it's 300 feet away from
the center?
Mr. Zweighafts No, it's a 600 foot radius.
Mayor Ferre: I see.
Mr. Zweighaft: The smaller green dot is the particular station itself. A
couple of other changes, in this area instead of running down S.E. 2nd Street
we're running on S. E. 3rd Street through the heart of DuPont Plaza and in this
area instead of running across 10th Street to the Rapid Transit Station this
arm runs all the way down to 13th Street and then back up to the Rapid Transit
Station.
Mayor Ferre: Let me ask you this question, Mr. Zweighaft, so as you go through
this I can understand it better. 600 feet is the green circle.
Mr. Zweighaft: Yes.
Mayor Ferre: What is the recommended optimum of what normal - that's kind of
a hard thing to define - that a normal citizen could walk or should walk in
most cities in Europe or the United States?
Mr. Zweighaft: All right, in our original studies in 76 we used 500 feet, what
we're saying is that most people would walk 500 feet, actually most will walk
quite a bit more than that but the distance people are willing to walk drops
off greatly beyond that distance.
Mayor Ferre: How much is a mile?
Mr. Zweighaft: 5,280, this is a tenth of a mile.
Mayor Ferre: So this is a little over a tenth of a mile.
Mr. Plummer: About a block and a half.
Mayor Ferre: Well now, if that were doubled....
Mr. Zweighaft: All right, we would still probably have people walking, a large
percentage of people walking, I wouldn't want to venture a guess but it may be
that 50% or 40% of potential people who are still willing to walk that longer
distance.
Mayor Ferre: Well, for example, three blocks, three Miami blocks would be
what?
Mr. Plummer: 900 feet.
Mayor Ferre: 900 feet.
Mr. Zweighaft: No, three Miami blocks are about 1200 feet I believe. 400 feet
per block here?
Mr. Grimm: 600 X 300.
Mayor Ferre: Well, what I'm trying to get to as I look at all of these things
is is it very difficult, for example, let's take Richard's Department Store,
it's probably right smack in the middle of all of those green circles. That
is close to the Dade Savings and Loan, the one that Al Parker designed. Would
somebody get off and walk that distance, I guess is the question?
Mr. Zweighaft: On an alignment like this they would have to walk over to Bur -
dines and then down Miami Avenue, that's the closest station. The distance is
roughly 700 feet, my guess is that more than half the people would still be
willing to walk that kind of a distance, it depends on the length of their trip.
Alignment "D", on Alignment "D" we moved the north/south line back to Brickell,
we stayed down on 13th Street, we moved the east/west leg of the loop, the
southern east/west Fide of the loop to 1st Street. Now we're missing service
to Ball Point in this alignment.
111111 11
8 FEB22
We are still on Biscayne Boulevard here. This goes over by the Government
Center. Alignment E, we attempted to get some other changes into the
system. We went back to the concept in Alternative C that we would run
through Du Pont Plaza in order to have a station at roughly Ball Point.
We moved the BP Alignment off of Biscayne Boulevard north of 4th Street.
The east/west leg still runs on 4th Street but now the n/s
leg runs on N.E. 2nd Avenue up to 1-395 and then crosses Biscayne Boulevard
here and runs up Bayshore Drive, --North Bayshore Drive, up to Omni, so it
would in a block west of Biscayne Boulevard, east of Biscayne Boulevard,
north of 1-395. We are still running on Biscayne Boulevard here and everyone
of the systems has a station in Government Center.Now, Alignment E was ranked
very highly by our consultants, the City staff, D.D.A. staff, proposed a
modification to Alignment E which was accepted for this final further
analysis. This is essentially, --label this Alignment E-1--essentially
the same as 1-E except that we go over to 2nd Avenue. The 2nd Avenue
Alignment at an earlier point, at N.E. lst Street, so we have a very
short segment along the southern part of Biscayne Boulevard. The alignment
here is still on 4th Street and at roughly,....7th Street for the F.E.C.
Railroad,..we go back to Biscayne Boulevard and continue Biscayne Boulevard
up into the Omni area. Next one. Alignment J uses the lst Street east/west
alignment the way it cuts back again on loth Street like the original
alignment. It runs along Biscayne Boulevard, goes back up to 5th Street,
wit'- the east/west line of north parts of the loop, it goes on Biscayne
Boulevard between S. E. 1st Street and N.E. 5th Street, and it runs along
2nd Avenue, all the way up to 17th Street, where it turns over to Omni.
And that basically was the 6 alignments.
Mayer Ferre: Uh..,before you take that one off, let me ask you a question.
Its a pretty severe turn in the loop. It looks like a 90 degree turn. What
kinc. of a radius does the Westinghouse system or the L.T.V. which seems to
be the larger of the six?
Mr. Zweighaft: L.T.V. probably has the largest radius.Its a little tight
for them to get around 100 feet. Westinghouse could make a 90 foot turn.
L.T.D. would probably be more comfortable be more comfortable with 110
foot radius. Any of those are tight enough radii to fit entirely within
the public right-of-way.
Mayor Ferre: In other words we wouldn't have to go take any buildings
down to cut across their corner.
Mr. Zweighaft: Well,we are laying out the lines so we wouldn't. There
are some very tight streets in Miami where both street may be 50 ft.
wide, and you'd have to do that. I wouldn't want to tell you to go
around any corner in Miami and not take a corner.But in general,we
could get around without taking buildings.
Mr. Plummer: Let me ask a question, because somewhere here, I'm losing
something. If I'm not mistaken, a People Mover is for the purpose of
enhancing people to use the Rapit Transit. That's the real basis of this
thing, and to get automobiles, the worst enemy No. 1 out of downtown areas.
Now, if I look at this thing here, I see more concern about a certain segment,
the north leg up to 17th Street or 15th Street, 14th Street, --I count from
5th Street north 3 stations, and yet we're the whole concentration of people,
the mass that you are approaching is in the downtown area. The core, of what
you are really trying to bring people from the entire south end, into the
core area, and I am just losing the perspective that says to me, that we
ought to forget about that north leg, worry about that after we have addressed
the main problem which is the core, to encourage people to use the downtown
area. Now what I'm really saying is, you talk about people walking and not
walking. I would be more comfortable with more stations in the downtown area
that address the million -and -a -half people that come into that area daily
than I would be about the possible 10,15 or 20 thousand that go to the extent
of the north leg. Now, I'm losing something somewhere because it seems like to
me, you know, we should be concentrating just in the core where the mass of
people are. Then once you have addressed that problem, and you find additional
funding, and you want to go with a north leg, then I agree. Fine. That's all
well and good, but I find this, and in my mind I split it three ways. North
of 5th Street is one, 5th Street to the river as two, and from the river to
loth Street is three. I don't understand.
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10
FEB 22 )979
Mayor Ferre: Before he answers, let me put it to you this way. From a
practical point of view, its going to cost about 30 million dollars per
mile, by the time we're finished.
Mr. Plummer: Right.
Mayor Ferre: For us to do any one of these loops, we are going to need
100 million dollars.
Mr. Plummer: You are talking about loops or sections?
Mayor Ferre: Loops, loops. Any one of these loops, if you're talking about
what you mentioned as section B.
Mr. Plummer: Right.
Mayor Ferre: In other words, from 5th to the river. Any one of those
loops, just to do that, by the time we're finished, --and I may be wrong
in my figures, --but I think that's about 2 miles, or 1.7 to 211 miles
depending on which loop you go to, so you're over 50 million dollars
which we don't have, and if we get additional funding which I think we
can. --I've discussed this with the Vice -President, and with all of the
staff at the White House, to get their support, and with Richard Paige,
who happened to have gone to school with Mark Israel, and is a close
friend of his, so we've got a good relationship there. I think we are
going to be able to get some additional funding, but I don't think we are
going to get sufficient funding to go all up to Omni and to go all the way
tr Prickell. This is just future stuff. Now, that's point No. 1. From a
practical point of view, that solves itself. No. 2, yes, I think you're
right about this being an adjunct to the Rapid Transit,however, I think
there's another way of looking at the People Mover. A People Mover is an
elevator that connects people between floors, except that in this case
instead of doing it up, it does it sideways. Okay? And if you look at it
that way, what this is, what this does with downtown Miami, is it makes
it a liveable shopping-center/commercial-center area, because in a
shopping center, like let's say Dadeland, you are willing to walk from
Burdines to Jordan Marsh. If it were twice that distance you wouldn't
it. Now what this does is it gives the ability for people to get in, let's
say at the Bayfront Park or Bali Point, --normally would not walk as far as
the Government Center --it's just too far to walk, --the ability to get there.
So I think you've got to take not account that the great deal of the usage
of this is going to be people moving around downtown Miami.
Mr. Plummer: Well I think you're saying exactly what I'm saying, that I
don't see a defensible argument against it. You know we're talking about
the downtown area, where the mass of people is what we're addressing. Look,
in my estimation, Section A, 5th Street north, --what are you really talking
about,(I don't care who answers the question), --what are you really projecting
as far as numbers of people? What would be the ridership of that?
Mr. Zweighaft: I don't have the exact ridership figures on the top of my
bead.
Mr. Plummer: Ballpark.
Mr. Zweighaft: I wanted to just simply endorse what you were saying. Our
ridership studies studies we have reached these kind of conclusions. We
could probably do on this map now, considering Alternative A. That's why
I brought it up. We could probably do with at least one less station
on that north leg. The ridership up there is roughly 20,000 boarding or
getting off a day.
Mr. Plummer: That's my point. Look at this one. Now this is even worse.
You've got 1,2,3,--you've got 4 stations north of 5th Street.
Mayor Ferre: Ten years from now, --five years from now, --we're not going to
have to worry about that unless you can tell where we we're going to get
250 million dollars. Since we are not going to get 250 million dollars,
rn.
11
FEd 2 1y7
let me put it to you this way. How much will cost to build roughly,
any one of these loops?
Mr. Zweighaft: I'm not prepared to say sir.
Mayor Ferre: Is it over 50 million dollars?
Mr. Zweighaft: I would say its definitely over 50 million dollars.
Mayor Ferre: Is it over a hundred million dollars?
Mr. Zweighaft: I'm not ready to say, but as a guess, yes.
Mayor Ferre: Okay. So in other words, now you have now 24 million?
Mr. Zweighaft: We have in hand essentially, --we have a letter from UMTA
which commits 24 million dollars.
Mayor Ferre: Now, where are you going to get the remaining 50 or 75 million
dollars?
Mr. Zweighaft: We go back to UMTA.
Mayor Ferre: So therefore UMTA doesn't give it to you, you don't have
it? Right?
Mr. Zweighaft: Well our next step is just as you said, is to attempt to
develop a staging for this full system, and from roughly the point after
March 9th, when the decision is made on full system alignment on, we will
only consider segments of the full system, knocking outvarious legs & such.
Mayor Ferre: So in answer to Commissioner Plummer's questioning, I think
you are right, but what I'm telling you is, we have to kind what we are
got.ng to do in the future, but we are not going to have that problem in
the next two or three years.
Mr. Reid: I would like to respond to that Mr. Mayor. You mention
one specification of the system that we ought to be thinking about and
future connections to Watson Island and South Beach and so forth. I think
the key specification of the system is, that without a good people -mover
system, your Rapid won't work. If people can't get on the Rapid and go
from where they are to where they want to go, in terms of usage to the
downtown, it will severely cut down the effectiveness of the Rapid. The
Rapid needs a downtown disbributor. Okay? So that is point No. 1, and I
agree with, your statement. The second point is we're talking about
designing at this stage a full system which we would like if we had the
funds to pay for. There's going to have to be,...come back to this Commission
in terms of deciding which of this gets built first. And we are certainly in
that regard are going to be looking at the downtown loop first. Sn there
are two questions. What kind of system do you want, if you could pay for
the full system? When you've answered that question, which part do you want
to pay for first? So we are right at the first question now.
Mrs. Gordon: I want to state, I see some real serious problems in the
design of the alignment,.(inaudible) The alternative to some of
them address the real problem in my opinion, that is to take people out
of their cars, and bring them to where they want to go without having to
walk too far, now, you know. I don't know how you all feel about it, but
I know a lot of people that won't walk the distance that is required from
one of the green dots on the right, or midway to the next green dot on the
left. I also have an objection, a real serious objection, to the Biscayne
Boulevard alignment. I don't feel like we need to have it on Biscayne.The
fact is it defeats the purpose of the entire system because it does remove
the station location from the central district where the people will be
shopping, and if in fact it was aligned on 2nd Avenue or whatever, other
than Biscayne Boulevard, you would accomplish two improvements in ridership.
Okay. The next thing that I object to, if you have enough money to go into
the Brickell area, I object to utilizing Brickell Avenue, that beautiful
street for the vehicles to ride on. I think it would be much better to
12
rn
move it over to Miami Avenue Road. Because there it would not hurt
anything or anybody and again it would not help in that area so much
as it would in the downtown business area as far as people not having
to walk so far. That is the point on Brickell, is the matter of the
amenities in the area being affected adversely in my opinion. And of
course I cannot imagine a Biscayne Boulevard with the People Mover
on it. I just imagine how we can even consider that being a viable
alternative to putting the system in.
Mr. Zweighaft: Well in every one of those cases the consultants right
now have alternatives which are either on Brickell or off Brickell, to
a degree either on Biscayne or off Biscayne, although all of the
alignments they have under consideration have a very short stretch
of Biscayne Boulevard involved because they are very anxious to get
service to this very large development at Ball Point.
Mrs. Gordon: Very anxious to what?
Mr. Zweighaft: To get service to the very large development at Ball Point.
Mrs. Gordon:Well for one particular development, you are in my opinion
are really damaging the entire proposal.
Mr. Zweighaft:Well, its not just Bali. Point. There's One Biscayne Tower,
the Southeast Banks, the empty portions of Du Pont Plaza.
Mrs. Gordon: Inaudible,...is not that far to walk to Bali Point or
Biscayne Towers.
Mr. Zweighaft: Its beyond the 600 ft. walking distance,...here,...
Mrs. Gordon: In my opinion people are going to come downtown, they are
going to come downtown to shop downtown. At least that would be the best
way of stimulating economy downtown,not because they are going to come to
particularly the Ball Point development.
Mr. Zweighaft: They actually had an alignment, and I think that's still
what the alignments along S.E. and S.W. First Street, --they are trying to
do, is pick up the shopping areas in downtown.
Mrs. Gordon: Okay, I've stated my views. I don't want to be argumentive.
I am definitely opposed to the Biscayne Boulevard alignment.
Mayor Ferre: Any other comments or questions. I have one last thing. Can we
turn on the lights. I have one last thing I wanted to make on the record here
of public comment to you and to the administration. In 1974 when I was getting
into all of this,--'75 I guess it was, the vice president of Westinghouse
that handles all of this stuff came to see me and he said if we can work
out a turn -key contract right now, Westinghouse will guarantee a system
similar to what we have in Tampa which is the only one I know about, and
under 20 million dollars a mile. And we'd be willing to guarantee it and
put it in writing, and we may end up losing money on it, but this will be
the first major breakthrough. So I talked to, --I guess Ray Goode was Manager
at the time, --by then I think Jack Gordon died, so I talked to Ed Fogg
and talked to Paul Andrews and as it turned out that there W just no way
we could do it, because you know this is not Atlanta Georgia, where they
can do things like that. Here we've got to go through a long, tedious process
of opening public bids, and what -have -you. So three years have gone by since
then. Here's my question. What concerns se now is, that I heard when I was
up in UMTA last time, that they are going to spread this thing. In other
words no one firm is going to get all the business, so they are going to
insist that if, --and here's what I'm worried about, Los Angeles is much
further ahead than we are, --if Los Angeles gets Westinghouse, who is by
far the most advanced system, that means we are not going to get Westinghouse.
We are going to get the next one. And if then Detroit get L.T.D., we are not
going to get L.T.D.We are going to get the next one. And I'm just worried that
we are going to end up getting caught not getting the best system, not because
we don't want to select it but because UMTA is going to follow this policy
of spreading the,....in other words not being stuck with just one firm.
That would be all right, if I thought that you know, Ford and Chevy are
basically, --who cares. I don't really think there's much difference, but
13
•
if there is a big difference between the Westinghouse technology and
the L.T.D. and I think there is, we are going to get caught with not the
bad, but the lesser of good system. Now how do we deal with that?
Mr. Zweighaft: You've got the UMTA policy exactly right, right now. The
first city gets no restrictions in that regard. The second city can choose
any of the systems accept the one deployed in the first city. The third city
can pick any one except the first two. There's another situation. The fourth
city gets a full —field again essentially.
Mayor Ferre: I guess my point to you is that I want to be on the first
report.
Mr. Zweighaft: That's the way we talk in our shop too.
Mayor Ferre: I think that what's going to happen, there's no way we
are going to be first. And I'd hate to be third.
Mr. Zweighaft: I wouldn't want to say that there isn't any way we are
going to be first. Los Angeles, while they are much further advanced
than we are, has some very serious problem. They are running past some
national historic register structures. They may yet suffer delays that
put them behind us.
Mayor Ferre: I hate to sound like the Miami Herald and get cynical about
this but let me tell you something. This is politics. The fact is that
who pets first is who the White House is going to want to pay for on this
thine. And unfortunately it is just a question of who has the political clout,
snf '.h ereas, I'll tell you, I've got fairly good entree into the White House.
I guarantee you there isn't anybody in this town, including the Mayor, who
has the kind of clout that Tom Bradley and some of the others,..and Coleman
Young is rrobably, politically one of the top ten strongest people in the
White Ec'se. We can't compete with those kind. So therefore what I'm saying
is, I think you are just dreaming if you think you are going to be ahead of
Los Angeles. I hope I'm wrong, but I doubt it. And therefore I think it is
importar.t that we keep any eye on this question of the technology.All right.
Are there any other questions? This is not a public hearing. I'm sure you're
here on something else and we let you make your comment at that time.
Mr. Zweighaft: I guess I would like to make one last comment for people.
There is a public hearing currently scheduled for March 9 and we hope
at that time both the City and Miami Commissions, after hearing the input
from the policy committee, from their respective staffs and from the public,
we'll be able to arrive at a consensus alignment for us to proceed with
our further engineering work.
Mrs. Gordon: Just for clarification, there were other alignments that
were (inaudible) discarded. Will those alignments also be shown at the
public hearing? Some of those may have not included Biscayne Boulevard,...
Did they, or didn't they?
Mr. Zweighaft: Some of those didn't. We had not intended on carrying those
through the public hearing because we don't have the same level of information
regarding those alignments, but we'll make sure the maps and all the information
that we have regarding those are there are the hearing, and we'll discuss them.
Mrs. Gordon: If there isn't any real alternative, in my opinion there isn't
in these alignments,...you're not moving for a public hearing to
rubber stamp the policy, are you?
Mr.Zweighaft: We'll make sure that we bring all of the information
developed today to the public hearing and make presentation on all of it.
Right now, we will have more information on the 6 alignments that are
currently under study, then we will on the other alignments.
Mayor Ferre: Let's see if we have the time order so everybody understands it.
This coming Saturday at 9 A.M. at the Howard Johnson ' D.P.M. at 9 A.M.
we have a policy wherein staff will bring in a recommendation, and the
rn.
14
FEB 2 2 1979
policy committee is going to vote.Is that correct? Plumper and I are on
that D.P.M.,--Roy you are on it, and I would hope that we can be there.
Ms. Ellen Wacker: I hope so too. Its the Howard Johnson across just
kitty-corner from the Du Pont Plaza.
Mayor Ferre: Now, the other point, --that's Saturday the 24th,--do we have
a meeting on March the 3rd Saturday?
Mr. Zweighaft: It depends on what the outcome of the 24th meeting is.
Mayor Ferre: Then the next point is March 9th, which is Friday morning, which
is a public hearing. Is that correct?
Ms. Wacker: Combined City of Miami/Dade County public hearing, currently
scheduled for Bayfront Park Auditorium at 9:30.
Mayor Ferre: Would you all mark that down? Will the City Commission and
the County Commission meet together?
Ms. Wacker: Yes, as they did once before. That's March the 9th, Friday
March the 9th, at 9:30 at Bayfront Park Auditorium.
Mayor Ferre: Plummer what time are you going to have to be in Hawaii? What
day are you going to have to be there?
Mr. Plummer: Mr. Mayor I'm taking you to the airport on the 10th so that's
no problem.
Mr. Grassie: That flight leaves Friday morning, the 9th.
Mr. P1uu.er: No.
Mr. Grassie: Yes, sir.
Mr. Plummer: What do you mean? That't the Mayor's problem.
Mayor Ferre: No, its not the Mayor's problem. You are the guy going to
Hawaii. I ain't going to Hawaii.
Mr. Grassie: It also involves Steve Clark.
Mayor Ferre: Steve Clark?
Mr.Zweighaft: We understand we may have a conflict with that. We haven't
had a chance to talk to our Commissioners yet, so there is a possibility
that March 9th date may have to slip into the next week.
Mayor Ferre: Look, would you let us know as quickly as possible, because
there are a lot of people, you know, who have very difficult schedules.
Ms. Wacker: Right. Well, yeh, and you all let us know, if its the 9th or
loth.
Mayor Ferre: Well, let me put it to this way. Even Plummer isn't going to
go to Hawaii, and I hope Steve Clark won't either, if this meeting is going
on at 9 o'clock that morning,..you can take an afternoon flight.
Mr. Plummer: Let me just tell you this. The reason for it is, we were able
to get last -class fare, and to get advantage of that we had to take the 9th
instead of the l0th, which is what is proposed.
Mayor Ferre: What kind of fare?
Mr. Plummer: Last -class. We got the package deal for half -fare, going one
day earlier. I think that's what the,...
Mayor Ferre: This is the Superbowl,--this is the presentation of that.
rn•
15
FEB 2 2 1970
Ms.Wacker: So this will involve both of you, or just one of you?
Mr. Plummer: It will involve Merrit Stierheim, Steve Clark, Mayor Ferre,..
Mayor Ferre:No, J.L. Plummer.
Mr. Plummer: ..Bob Jennings and Mr. Lew Price, which of course are not
pertinent to this.
Mr. Zweighaft: We just learned about this yesterday, or day before. We
are working as hard as we can to make the arrangements right.
Mayor Ferre: I thought Jesse Wisenborn,...
Mr. Plummer: Jesse is not involved in this. He's going to Hawaii
but he's not involved in the Mover system . She was worried about the
people of the mover system.
Mayor Ferre: A11 right, is there anything else on this item?
Mrs. Gordon: I want to ask you if we are not able to be present at the
time c: the hearing, or even at the policy committee meeting,would the
comment be made saying, (inaudible),..
Mr. Zweighaft: Absolutely.
rn
16
F E B '%
3. DISCUSSION OF "RAPID TRANSIT STATIONS -JOINT DEVELOPMENT
Mayor Ferre: We are now on item C which is a discussion of joint development
of Tapid Transit Stations. All right, Jim.
Mr. James Reid: The Commission is aware of the City, under contract with
the County is carrying out a planning process around each of the Rapid Transit
Stations, that will set development objectives and develop small area plans
for each of the stations to guide development in the future. At the same time
that this process is going on, an opportunity has presented itself so we felt
we ought to discuss it with the Commission because we think we ought to take
advantage of it. Basically in 1974, the Urban Mass Transit Act was amended
by then Representative Andrew Young, in a section that came to be called the
Young amendment. It war done primarily for the benefit of Atlanta. That
amendment permitted the UMTA, the transit people, to use some of their capital
funds to assist and help out real estate development around the transit sta-
tions, so that the term 'joint -development' means that in connection with the
Rapid Transit System development that you seek to encourage and maximize real
estate development opportunities around the transit stops. And in 1974 the
UMTA legislation was amended to permit them to provide grants to local commun-
ities for traditional real estate redevelopment activities such as land acqui-
sition, relocation, demolition, capital improvements, that kind of thing. UMTA
never used that authority, since cities like Atlanta and Baltimore have been
talking to them for years really in terms of projects that they are interested
in. but under the Carter Urban Initiatives Program, 200 million dollars has
been set aside nationally for joint development around the transit stations,
money to pay for land -related development activities.
Mayor Ferre: Is that going to be done in conjunction with UDAG or anything
else?
Mr. Reid: It's a program, the way they hope to carry it out is very similar
to UDAG, but it's a separate funding authority. The money is coming our of
the UMTA capital grants money.
Mayor Ferre: So in other words the granting agency will be UMTA itself?
Mr. Reid: The granting agency is UMTA itself and the authority was first
enacted in 1974.
Mayor Ferre: Is there a formula for distribution of the 200 million dollars?
Mr. Reid: There is 200 million.... there is no formula. It is a competitive
categorical grant. Cities that have mass transit systems are going to be
going after the money. In fact, Baltimore and Atlanta have been knocking at
the door for several years but UMTA hasn't been ready to open.
Mayor Ferre: Well, tell us how we are going to get our fair share, which is
what, twenty million dollars?
Mr. Reid: Well, that's what we are here to talk about.
Mrs. Gordon: A question I would like to ask you is what is this money desig-
nated to be used for, public buildings or what?
Mr. Reid: It is to be used for public activities that compliment private
development. It is very much like the UDAG program. They want to have pro-
posals from the private sector, --interests of the private sector, in the
later uses that demand would be to put, we could go out and acquire land
around the transit stops. We can relocate people.
rn.
FEB 2 2 1979
1'7
Mrs. Gordon: Right. I understand what you said before, but I want to
know what will go on the land you acquire. What kind of facilities?
Give me a for instance.
Mr. Reid: For instance, we could acquire land around the Douglas Road
Station, and put a small,...you could sell it back to private developers
for a small commercial area. We could acquire land around the new Washington
Heights station and construct and sell it back to a developer for additional
housing, or commercial services. It could be used for real estate development
that's related to the transit station and makes sense in terms of both the
City's planning objectives and UMTA.
Mrs. Gordon: Please clarify this please. UMTA is going to give us money
and we are going to buy land and we are going to sell it to private
developers or we are going to give it to private,...inaudible,....
Mr. Reid: We are going to sell it to private developers, basically. It could
be used for other type activities. For example Baltimore is building a huge
plaza that connects one of their stations, or wants to build a plaza to
connect their stations.
Mayor Ferre: Horrors. This is horrible. You mean to say that somebody
else besides the City of Miami goes out and works for the private sector,
and gives them land and helps them to do things?
Mr. Reid: We actually it is a matter of national policy Mayor Ferre as you
well know. That the whole thrust of the Carter UDAG program and it is the
essential element of the UM1A Joint Development Program. But basically the
Authority has been on the books since 1974. In 1978 Carter said that they
were actually going to spend money for this program, and UMTA yesterday
put out a press release saying saying that they were ready to receive
proposals. So what we are talking about 200 million dollars nationally
the cities with transit systems will be competing for, in terms of joint
development projects around transit stations.
Mayor Ferre: Could you come to the point quicker on this thing? How much
money is available, what are we going for? When is it available? When is
the funding time? When do the presentations have to be made?
Mr. Reid: A11 right. In terms of Miami an UMTA official has said that
we could receive anywhere from 12 to 20 million dollars for joint develop-
ment projects. We would hope that over the next one or two months, we
could put together joint development program along with the County in the
Douglas Road area, in the new Washington Heights area, and the County is
very much interested in some of this money being spent in the government
center area. So, what we are here today to talk about is to talk about
the federal opportunity and to share our thinking at this point in terms
of some of the uses to which the money might be put.
Mayor Ferre: Is the D.D.A. involved in this?
Mr. Reid: The D.D.A. is involved in the government center station. The
new Washington Heights station moneys would probably be spent in the
Culmer Overtown redevelopment areas.
Mayor Ferre: Who's making the decision as to,.,.we can't get all three
of them obviously. We are going to get one or the other. We are not going
to get Culmer, Downtown, Government Center and Douglas Road.
Mr. Reid: I think that we can develop a funding package that calls for
money for all three. Okay. That is our basic posture at this point in
time, we develop a package in the neighborhood of 12 to 20 million
dollars to be spread among all three. And I'd like to turn it over to
Jack Luft to specifically discuss the Douglas Road and the new Washington
Heights station.
Mr. Fosmoen: Mr. Mayor I just want to make clear to the Commission that
we are recommending those three stations. There are eleven stations in
the City.
rn.
18
FEB 2 197D
Mayor Ferre: "We" mean the staff?
Mr. Fosmoen: "We" mean the staff.
Mayor Ferre: The City of Miami hasn't taken a policy posture on that yet?
Mr. Fosmoen: The City of Miami Commission has not taken a policy posture
that's why I raising that issue for you. There are eight other stations,
however in our opinion these three have the best shot at funding.
Mayor Ferre: This is your opinion.
Mr. Fosmoen: In our opinion,..not corporate,...just the staff. Those three
stations have the best shot at being funded.
Mayor Ferre: I am not trying any problems. I just want to make sure,
because we get caught up on these things and there are a lot of assumptions
made and then some member of the Commission gets all upset,...its fine, but
who told you?
Mr. Reid: Well, UMTA has a definite bias towards assisting station areas
where private development is likely to be slow in coming or need some
sort of public -private -partnership to happen.
Mayor Ferre: Has the Metro Commission gone on record on this yet? Or is
this Metro's staff? Staff?
Mr. Fosmoen: Staff.
Slide presentation by Jack Luft of the Planning Department.
Mrs. Gordon: Jack isn't it true that to make the transit system really
operate profitably, you need to bring people close to the station location
to live so they'd be interested in utilizing it and not getting in their
car. That is your planning? Are you considering high -density residential
in this area?
Mr. Luft: Yes we are. That is absolutely the basis for our redevelopment
consideration around several of these stations, downtown Brickell area
and Douglas Road, however we are going to never see that happen, --some-
thing more than parking lots, and vacant lots and contractor's storage
yards, --if anything more than that's going to happen, the public sector
is going to have to step in and take some action to make this happen. This
is the story that has been repeated time and again in transit systems
throughout this country. I can show you reports that big and tell you,
don't expect transit to make these changes happen by themselves. In areas
like this, --Boston, San Francisco, Chicago, New York, --if you don't do
something, this is what you are going to have for a long time to come.
It is going to be a painful, slow process. People are going to be forced
out. There's going to be hesitation and speculation, and you don't know
what you are going to get. So our problem here is to come up with a program
that will allow us to take judicious action on the part of the public sector,
that would make it possible for private investors and developers to come
in here and develop the kinds of activities, --the residential, new offices
and commercial services, --that we would like to see around our transit
stations, and this is what I'm going to describe to here in these next
few moments. Basically the Urban Initiatives Program allows us to
do a couple of things, --it allows us to acquire land, it allows us to make
public facility improvements, like streets, sewers, so that the capacities
and support and development are there. It allows us to build pedestrian
overpasses. It allows us to make certain amenity improvements, --landscaping.
It does not allow us to build the residential. It does not allow us to build
the office. That must be accomplished by the private market.
19
rn
7E6 22 1979
So, what we have here is a pretty straight -forward package of
proposals that follows those simple guidelines that we think is probably the...
a sort of a minimum that we can do and still have a reasonable expectation of
accomplishing something in this area. We are all familiar with the housing
along Dixie Highway. There is concrete monsters on the South side and on the North
side here, al], of this is in Coral Gables. There has been a lot of problems
in this community. The Community Development area on the South part here has
been working for eight years, they have been up -grading this area substantially
and it is their three year program to acquire these concrete monsters along
Dixie Highway, and we replace them with a green belt buffer to allow them to
project and actually expand the single family housing opportunities in this
community to the South. HUD and CD does not have enough money to touch this
housing on the North side and Rapid Transit will not be taking the housing
on the North side. So, these housing units will have a Rapid Transit directly
in their backyard and Dixie Highway in their frontyard. And this will remain
unless someone can do something about it and we don't know whether
that's going to happen yet.
Mrs. Gordon: It appears that it might even be a profit for private enterprise; -
to put in housing there because you upgrade the area which will happen and it
will then become profitable to construct for people who want to live in that
proximity to the line.
Mr. Luft: That's the strategy we want to try to outline for you here.
Mayor Ferre: Are you talking about in that strip, Rose.
Mrs. Gordon: Sure.
Mr. Luft: Now, this strip right here we feel has some environmental problems.
However, we have some opportunities up in here.
Mrs. Gordon: Yes, true the environmental, from the noise factors and close
proximity to the line, but on the other hand what the line is going to be like is going
to affect a lot of the areas in our City and whether it's going to be a noisy
one or a quiet one is going to be a determining factor on the amount of develop-
ment that's going to take place close to it.
Mr. Luft: The two big problems here, of course, are Dixie Highway access and
improving the condition of these housing units, but our proposal would be to
take this housing. Now, it is in Coral Gables and would require the cooperation
of Housing and Urban Development of Dade County to do this. So, it's really
a joint program, this is City of Miami working together with the County in this
effort. Okay? The money is coming through the County.
o,
20
Mayor Ferre: I think, as I understand it, the Rapid Transit... all of the...
you see, the Rapid... This Rapid Transit is steel on steel...
Mr. Luft: That's right.
Mayor Ferre: ...so this is... no matter how you slice it and how efficient
the modern day trains are versus the old El in New York or... it's going to
be noisy, so there is no way you can get away from that.
Mr. Luft: Well, I ... that is not going to be the kind of thing you would want
to live within fifteen feet of the right-of-way, and that's where the problem
is here.
Mrs. Gordon: But there will be noises and there are problems, Maurice, all
over down through the Brickell Avenue...
Mayor Ferre: Yes, but who wants to live next to one of those things, Rose?
Mr. Luft: Let me explain what our strategy is now. We know that in addition
to this being a problem in itself, it spills over and impacts this area. You
have crime problems that all of these businesses are not going to tell you
plague them. And those crime problems, as long as they exist are going to
be a detrimental factor to any re -development in here. No one,... We have
been told by Coca Cola here and private developers, you are not going to get
a dime in here as long as some of these problems still exist. Ok.
Mrs. Gordon: I just wanted to mention that, Maurice, you know that in Disney
World the line goes right through that hotel.
Mayor Ferre: That's rubber, that's a rubber line.
Mrs. Gordon: That's what I'm thinking, I mean, I'm not aware of the kind of
vehicle that needs land, but...
Mayor Ferre: No, that's rubber tires, Rose.
Mrs. Gordon: Yes, well you know that makes a big difference.
Mayor Ferre: Now, this is steel on steel and I have seen steel on steel in
Mexico City and the ones...
Mr. Luft: Washington.
Mayor Ferre: ... in Washington and boy, they, you know, when they stop they
squeak.
Mr. Luft: We would... First of all we are proposing acquisition of this hous-
ing here, but we are talking about a total package of approximately eight mil-
lion dollars. This is the proportion that we would be requesting for Douglas
Road of these transit development monies, eight million dollars. So everything
I'm going to describe to you here totals up to that. Ok? First of all, acqui-
sition and the relocation and clearance for this area here, these people would
be relocated into decent housing by Housing and Urban Development. Secondly,
we have a situation that we are most concerned about, the vacant lot, the South
ern Bell, the automobile repair shops, the contractor and the warehouse, all
of these things are fronting on 38th which is the major access route into the
station. Our most serious problems exist in this block that's across the street
from the station. We have De Maria Porsche -Audi over here and Aragon Industries
up here. It's a very fine industry, employs a lot of people. We have no prob-
lems with that but De Maria -Porsche Audi has a very permanent and attractive
operation. We don't have any problem with that really. The problem exists on
this block here primarily. Back in here we have a casket manufacturer who has
been contending to expand his business for about thirty years and....
Mayor Ferre: That's a part of Coral Gables.
Mr. Luft: No, this is in the City of Miami. This is the City Limit right
here and here, Ok, this is all the City of Miami.
Rev. Gibson: That red is in the City of Miami? No, no, no, come down, come
down, comae down.
gl
21
Mr. Luft: This is in Coral Gables.
Rev. Gibson: I just wanted to make sure we understood that.
Mr. Luft: That's right, that's in Coral Gables.
Rev. Gibson: Let me, let me...I wasn't going to say anything, but I better
speak to it. You know, the people who live there begged Coral Gables not to
do what they did and nobody paid them a doggone bit of mind, nobody. And you
all, our sins come back to haunt us, our sins come back to haunt us. Now, that's
all I'm going to say and I'm not going to say anymore than that and I am not
for the City of Miami putting one doggone penny in that red line.
Mr. Luft: This is precisely the sentiment taken by Selma Alexander and the
Planning Advisory Board when they were approached with this concept too. I
think the point to remember here are those... these are all federal monies
coming through Dade County, ok. There will not be a dime of City money...
Rev. Gibson: Don't charge it to the City, charge it to Coral Gables, you know,
Coral Gables acts. Let me put this in the record. Coral Gables acts as if,
they don't have no Black folk living in Coral Gables. Let's make sure that
record is clear too. And let me say this, I will be the last to vote, over my
dead body, to put one dime of money that comes in here, I don't care how it
comes in, attributed or assessed against the City of Miami to get that because
the people there fought like hell to keep what happened there from happening
and nobody cared, nobody cared, they wouldn't listen. And the reason you have
/#1 highway as bad as it is with all of those monsters there is, nobody cared.
Read the newspaper. Bill Baggs is dead and gone to his God...
(BACKGROUND COMMENT OFF THE PUBLIC RECORD)
Rev. Gibs:gn: I don't remember, but it was Bill Beggs who begged them, begged
them and read the editorials and note, you have that fence there only because
he ra+se4' the hell he raised on that same /I1 highway. So, I don't have any
sympathy. I believe that politicianSand other governmental agencies ought
to bear their cross too. So, don't come telling... I don't want to hear that.
Yr. Luft: We are going to go to Coral Gables and accomplish this.
Rev. Gibson: Man, you are wasting my time, go on... listen when you are talking
about that red thing there, you are wasting my time.
Mr. Luft: Ok.
Rev. Gibson: Ok?
Mr. Luft: Alright, in the City of Miami portion of it we have the warehouses
along San Lorenzo with the vacant lots, Southern Bell, auto body repair shops, the
contractors storage and a row of small shops along Bird Road here. We also,
have the warehouses over here. Now,...
Rev. Gibson: I think you ought to tell this Commission that all of the housing
developments to bring relief to that area is on the Miami side and you are having
an awful problem... this isn't being surfaced, you are having an awful problem
out of the City of Coral Gables. Isn't that... that the people in Coral
Gables who don't want to take care of that problem. Isn't that true?
Mr. Luft: Well, I...
P.ev. Gibson: Yes, it's true. Man, look, you are talking to a guy who is an
authority on what you are talking about, so don't come here telling half of the
story, tell it all.
Mr. Luft: Yes, sir.
Rev. Gibson: Right.
Mr. Luft: Alright, basically our program would be this. These would be the
parcels we would acquire, these would accommodate the worse problems, they
would provide us the most strategically located parcels for redevelopment. We
could close this small street here and package together these two sites
immediately across from the entrance of the station. This would give us several
gl
22
FEB 22 1S79
II/
acres of land for redevelopment. We would also propose improvement of the
streets, these internal streets in here, Orange Avenue, 38th Court, Shipping,
Peacock, that would provide curbs and gutters and street improvements. The
final problems that we face, given these acquisitions, we would clear this
land. We would package it, we would make it available to developers, large
parcels that they could develop high -density housing on or regional services.
Mayor Ferre: All right, Jack, thank you very much. Are there any other
questions that we have at this time? It is ten minutes to eleven.
Mr. Luft: Just one more point, the last point we have. This is still a tough
area. Who's going to be the first in? We have several developers to explore
some of these problems. Who is going to be the first man to risk money in
there? One strategic concept we have for bringing somebody in. We have these
new warehouses there that currently use the storage.
Mrs. Gordon: How do you contact? What developers are you talking about?
Mr. Luft: We are talking about the developers was
contacted, people from the real estate companies
(portions inaudible).
Mrs. Gordon: Have you done anything about letting the developers at large
know? Have you put it in the paper?
INAUDIBLE
Mayo- Fc-;ru: Yes, but I think the question is still valid. Does the Miami
Dade C.J:,t:a:.tors Association know? Does the Miami Board of Realtors know?
Does the Chamber of Commerce know?
M. Fosmoen: I think the point is that at this juncture we needed some indi-
cation from people tht there was an interest in the area for redevelopment.
Yes, we .ill go through the full disclosure and advertising and everything else
that cc�n with that.
Mr. Luft: The last concept I did very much want to bring up....
Mrs. Gordon: Mr. Fosmoen, did you contact the Miami Board of Realtors and
advise them that you are interested in their input and their opinion about
whether oz not this would be a proper listing? Yes or no?
INAUDIBLE
Mr. Luft: The Miami Builders Association and the Board of Realtors are all
being contacted for follow-up meetings.
Mrs. Gordon: You made a statement that the developers are not interested. I
don't know how you could come up with a statement like that when you haven't
done very much about trying to contact developers.
Mr. Fosmoen: Commissioner, you know before the staff goes running off and set-
ting up all kinds of community -wide meetings with the Board of Realtors we want
to make sure that this Commission is on track and understands what we are about.
Mrs. Gordon: this Commission an input and make a statement, a flat
statement, and you ought to have expertise as well es the number. I don't know
how many you have had input from but you should have a broader input than what
you have.
Mr. Reid: I want to comment on that. Number one, on December 15 there was a
joint meeting held at DDA headquarters and forty members of the development
community including bankers and real estate people, development entrepreneurs
and so forth were invited to receive a briefing on this program. So there
has been specific effort to contact developers, get them interested. In addi-
tion to that, the Planning Advisory (Continued on next page)
FEB 22 1970
23
Board held a publicly advertised meeting and invited developers and
citizens to come in and be made aware of this program. So there have
been several specific activities to get full developers,..we would
welcome, if Commission has knowledge of developers who would,....
Mrs. Gordon: I will go on record right now and ask you respectfully
to notify the Miami Board of Realtors, if and when you are holding
any other meetings relating to any property development that may be
taking place in the near future or the far distant future, or whatever.
Okay.
Mr. Luft: The last point I just wanted to raise for your information.
We were looking at the warehouses,(inaudible),...they are brand new
structures. They cannot exist for the function that is being served
in them now, with transit.We can either tear them down or try to use
them. The concept we were working with here, the possibility of intro-
ducing some cultural arts organizations into the warehouse spaces.
We have talked with Council of Arts and Sciences,
I've talked with Bob Herman from the Opera, we have talked with
members of the Philharmonic and the Playhouse about the possibility, --
no promises made,about the possibility of publicly owned warehouse buildings
being made available, for reduced rates for operations of theaters, work-
shops; studios,classrooms and the like.This is their operations. These
people would be the kind of people that would come here first. There's
no question that they would come in here well in advance of anyone with monies
The developers, the people we've talked with said that there is no
question but what the existence of operations of this nature, and won't
talk about a couple or two or three buildings. A package, it
would be a financial inducement for residential development in particular,
and for commercial services to come into this area. They would in fact
(inaudible)
Mayor Ferre: Further questions, comments?
Mr. Plummer: Not comment, Mr. Mayor. You know,Mr. Luft,--the longer I
sit here the more I lose. Mr. Luft, you know, one of the big things
you might recall of my comments in reference to rapid transit and
stations in particular in the past, somehow or other we got off the
concept of the one close to my house, and I am not saying this selfishly
because it applies to other stations as well. You are not addressing to
me the most important problem. You heard the comments of Rose and the
Mayor about the noise, about the traffic,and you know it is a serious
problem. You are talking about an industrial area. Now when you take
the station down which is now being called the Planetarium Station,
---Vizcaya Station, --you are in the total middle of a residential area.
Now, to me, if you've got funds available, I think they should be first
addressed to the disruption of neighborhood, residential areas, then you
talk to the industrial areas. You know those buildings are not even
occupied at night and those buildings don't have to worry about the noise.
But those people who are living in the Vizcaya Station, and follow it
right on down, where these stations are existing in totally residential
areas, I think cry out, in my eyes, as the first priority to make sure
that you are providing proper buffers, that you are providing proper
whatever these moneys can address, and yet I don't hear the first word
this morning of concern about the residential. Now you take it for what
its worth.
Mr. Luft: I'll point out just this. Moneys that we are talking about
are very much and can be used as urban renewal moneys. Okay. They are
specifically earmarked by the federal government for programs in the
depressed areas, blighted areas in order to achieve new development
that would not occur otherwise. We could no*, would not go into the
Vizcaya area with Urban Renewal moneys for acquisition of homes, clearance
projects, redevelopment. That's what this program is all about. The kinds
of issues that you've addressed, the kinds of preservation issues to
protect neighborhoods are being attended to and if you'd like to come
to our Vizcaya meeting Wednesday night, you will hear those kinds of
concerns being expressed, and the proposals being made to deal
with teem. This is not a part of this program.
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24
FEB 2 z 1$6
Mr. Plummer: What you are really saying to me is that the Vizcaya
Station and other that exist in residential area are not blighted
today, and once they become blighted by the lack of attention then
I guess the federal government will come through and address those
blighted areas that they help create.
Mayor Ferre: Oh, my. I agree with you. We can't solve all the problem
of world J.L. at the little City of Miami Commission level. I sympathize
and I agree on many of those points. Now, do you want to do something
about it here? You want to tell Congress or the President to change all
these things' All right. Is there anything else on Item C?
Mr. Fosmoen: Mr. Mayor, so the Commission is aware, we do intend at this
point to go forward with joint development applications at Douglas Road,
Culmer and the Downtown Government Center station.
Mayor Ferre: I would assume that before you finalize the application
you would have the courtesy of bringing it to the Commission,...
Mr. Fosmoen: Yes, sir.
Mayor Ferre:...and asking for final Commission concurrence and policy
statement.
Mr. Fosmoen: No question about it. It will be brought back to this
Commission.
Rev. Gibson: Mr. Chairman, I want to make it crystal clear now. I keep
raising this. In this. In this joint development I want to make sure
of minority participation. And don't give that minority -blanket jazz
now, that I usually get. Okay. I want to make sure everybody understands
that.
Mrs. Gordon: I want to ask another question Father. I want to make it
sure also that for instance in the Culmer area, or any area where you
are going to be acquiring property and then selling it back to someone
else. Are you giving first choice or first opportunity to buy back to
those people you bought it from? I mean it seems to me that you know,
if you are going to displace the property owners, and you are going to
give it to another person, I don't think that's a fair situation.
Mayor Ferre: Are we covered by federal guidelines on that?
Mr. Fosmoen: To some extent Mr. Mayor. But let me say that we are working
with the new Washington Heights Economic Development Program. Mr. Post
is here as a member of their Board. We met with them last night. We are
trying to put together particularly in the Overtown area, a neighborhood
based development corporation that would be the vehicle for redevelopment
around transit stations. Now we are hearing loud and clear out of the
Culmer and Overtown community, that they want to partcipate in the economic
revitalization of that area. And they should. We are working with new
Washington Heights trying to put together the structure within which they
can do that.
Rev. Gibson: Mr. Mayor, let me say to the members of this Commission, this
problem is more serious than meets the eye. You remember when we had a
meeting in the conference room? I raised the question about that staff.
Do you remember that?
Mayor Ferre: Yes,sir.
Rev. Gibson: I said you have eight projects, --eight sites, --five of them
in the black area and not a single person making the decision, arriving
at conclusions on that staff. Man, --making decision. Look, you know, I
don't understand how you expect me to get all this burning, and look,
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FEE 2 ", 19h
Mayor Ferre: Well, but that's the reality, --Mr. Grassie.
Rev Gibson: Jack, John, what's his name? Bill Beggs said to me, --said
you know, --said this years ago to this community, you want Gibson to stay
in the ballgame you'd better give him some success stories.
Mayor Ferre: Explain yourself.
Mr. Grassie: I think Mr. Mayor and members of the City Commission that
the City Commission should refer back to a memorandum that I sent you
a week ago, which detailed every position on that staff both for Culmer
and for Community Development, --those are the two staffs you were talking
about. At that point, I pointed out to you that of the 41 people working
in Culmer, 40 of them were by far the majority of them black,
and of the 21 people that we have working in Community Development, that
20 of those persons are minorities. And I gave you a list of every person,
every position, and their ethnic composition.
Mayor Ferre: I think what Father Gibson said if I heard it right and
I think I hear like you do, or like anybody else does. What happened
when the statement was made, --let's review when and how it happened, --
Rev. Gibson: That's right.
Mayor Ferre:--Dena Spillman was sick.
Rev. Gibson: No, she was well, man. She got sick after. That's right.
That's the way it was.
Ma.:o: Terre: The fact is that Dena Spillman was in the hospital at the
time of the hearing. Maybe she felt worse after, but the fact is that
befctL :i.e was in the hospital, and therefore there was another young
lady who came up to represent the department, and there were some assistants.
And Father Gibson made the observation that he didn't see any black faces
and there was a discussion on a matter that the impact of a neighborhood
which was mostly black. Now, you now say that you have answered that by
saying that you've written back a memorandum saying that out of 42 employees
in the Culmer area, 40 are minorities, the majority black. That's not the
question.
Mr. Grassie: More than that Mayor. I've sent you every job title of the
staff and the ethnic make up of every one of those positions so that you
can determine whether they male, or female, or Black, Latin, or Anglo.
Mayor Ferre: Wonderful. Now answer Father Gibson's question which you
haven't done.
Rev. Gibson: Right.
Mr. Grassie: What I'm telling you is that I did not until just now have
the thing in front of you. What I was pointing out to you is that I sent
you this in detail a week ago. I have it now. It has just been handed to me.
And if you wish, I'll look at it and I'll try and put that together.
Rev. Gibson: Mr. Mayor, I appreciate your help, but listen to this. In
every administration there are No. 1, No. 2 , No. 3, No. 4, No. 5 in that
order. Now you may not understand those other things, the Downtown Develop-
ment Authority and all the rest of them. I want them to get this message
this morning because it burns my very soul, and I want you to hear me.
Lotk, you see when you get ready to decide on these spots, these locations
and what's going to happen, the policy is made with No. 1, No.2, No. 3, No.4
people there. Now they decide whether we are going here, whether we are going
there, or whether we are going over there. When you get to No. 25, you have
me in there and mind you, all along, --you are doing it to me. If you have
locations, --listen to this Mr. Mayor --the Manager can't get out of this.
I don't give a doggone what he says about that percentage. You have 8 locations.
Eight. Five of them are black. The Latins wouldn't let you do that for hell,
nor will white America. Now, come on man. Let's be reasonable and sensible
and sensitive. Wait a minute. Don't tell me that you can't find black pro-
fessionals. Man, you think I can't read? Think I can't see?
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FLc
Rev. Gibson: Let them get it on the record this morning.
Mr. Fosmoen: Yes, I would like to get it on the record. Ms. Spillman
did nation-wide recruiting for a job that she had open. She identified
a black housing planner. We had him in Miami, we offered him the job.
You couldn't pay him enough. The salary range was not high enough for
him to take the job.
Mr. Plummer: Let me ask a question, and I normally don't jump in. But
just at that point, has the job been filled?
Mr. Fosmoen: It sure has.
Mr. Plummer: Was it filled by other than a black?
Mr. Fosmoen: Yes.
Mr. Plummer: Was that same salary offered to that person who took the job?
Mr Fosmoen: Yes,sir.
Yr. Plummer: Was his qualifications the same as the other person?
Mr. Fosmoen: Yes, sir. The fourth -ranking position in Ms Spillman's office
is currently filled by a black. We have recently added in the Planning
Department the young man from Gainesville, Lloyd Spooner who is black.
His assignment is to work in Culmer, with the Culmer community on the
r€de""elopment planning of Overtown. I should point out also to this
Gor.a^;.ssion, that there was a period of approximately 6 months when
c'_v.1 service could not function. We lost in the Planning Department
2 vtry c,ualified black females because we could not get a Planner I
register. Now I just want to get that into the record so that the
Commission understands that we are making an effort. In some cases we
arc successful and in some cases we haven't been successful in filling
positions with black are other minority Planners.
Rev. Gibson: Okay, let me speak. I know I told Mr. Grassie when he came
here, Mr. Grassie, you don't got to Harvard to find black folks. I want
to put that in the record. When you go looking for black folk you go to
Harlem. I said that before and I'll say it again. My brother, I'm
foolish as people think I am. And you know, you aren't playing this game
right now. I'll tell you what, you know, --have you ever heard about the sins
of the past will meet you tomorrow. Ever heard that? Mr. Fosmoen, have you
ever heard that? Rose was talking to me. I was listening to you, so I want
make sure, the record can't read your bowing your head. I want to make
sure you answer me yes or no, see, so the record will reflect that I asked
you the question and you answered. Have you ever heard about the sins of
the past will follow you in the future?
Mr. Fosmoen:Yes, sir.
Rev. Gibson: Okay, that's all I want to know. I want to make sure you
understand what I'm saying, and I expect this administration to start as
of this hour, being affirmative about you say. We live a lie, man. We talk
about affirmative active. We live a lie. We get a couple of guys, you know,
the percentage Mr. Mayor, nobody is talking about it. You have a guy who
sweeps the floor, and you know, --I'm trying emphasize the low level in the
administration.That's what I'm trying to say. I'm talking about where the
decision are made. Let me tell you, when you start pulling that money out
of priority, --prioritizing that money. If I am not there doggone it, I'm
not a part of the priority. I said this about school integration in this
community, and I'm going to stop. I was so sick and tired, --I found out, --
I went to school long enough to find out, that unless you are there putting
your hand in the pot at the same time as other folk. You never know when the
pot gets to be empty. That's why I wanted school integration, so that
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27
FEb 2�
when you plan these schools it would be the same kind of a school
for all of tt:e children, because are not going to plan an inferior
school for yours, but you will for me. The record is clear. That's what
you did. All you have to do, and I don't want to repeat, you know, make
you msd,--watch that television on the rest of this week, "Roots". It
ought to be crystal clear, and the reason this part of "Roots" isn't
getting the same rating the other one got, is because you know, it's
hitting you in the belly. This one really hurts. The other one was polite.
Okay? I'll be watching you, Ms. Spillman. I'll be watching you all.
Mr. Plummer: Let me ask one question. Anybody can answer. Mr. Grassie,
you and I went to the School Board. I am speaking now of Washington
Heights, and we made a passioned plea and I think a fair plea of the
School Board about the school. I drove by last night and saw the school
has been torn down.
Rev. Gibson: That's right.
Mr.Plummer: Now, you know we were sloughed off at that Board Meeting
by sayin3 that we were unfair and they were going to revert it back to
staff. Now, that's I think about 3 or 4 months ago and I'm still waiting
for an answer.
Mr. Grassie: You are correct Commissioner. We have not received an
answer and as you remember, they told us at the time that they were
going to depend on a state evaluation. I think that you probably read
in the paper what that state evaluation was and they don't seem to be
.akin?, steps to reverse it that I'm aware of at this point.
Mr. F1ummer: All right. What about Centro Mater property, that property
w!1ich t School Board has under only a lease.
Mayor Ferre: Jim, can we come back and talk about this later on?
Mr. Plummer: Well that's all part of this same thing.
Mayor Ferre: I know but its 11:15 and we've got item D,E,F,G b 1 and
all of the are going to take an hour, and we have to be back here by 2.
I don't think we are going to be leaving here, so you may as well send out
for soup and sandwiches, or whatever anybody wants. Is there anything else
on item C.
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FEE 2 2 979
1
4. PRESENTATION OF THE REVISED DOWNTOWN GOVERNMENT CENTER
MASTER PLAN.
Mayor Ferree Can we get onto Item "D" now which is the Government Center Master
Plan?
Mr. Grassie: We anticipated this presentation to the members of the Commission
today but Mr. Geddes apparently was snow -bound in Philadelphia, Mr. Mayor, so
we're not going to have that presentation.
Mayor Ferre: We can skip "D" then, right?
5. DISCUSSION OF THE CONCEPT OF A "LATIN QUARTER" FOR
THE CITY OF MIAMI.
Mayor Ferre: All right, then we're now on Item "E" which is Mr. Alvarez, Latin
Quarter for the City of Miami. Mr. Alvarez, always nice to see you.
Mr. Fosmoen: Mr. Mayor, Mr. Alvarez is here to make a presentation based on a
study he was contracted for. There were really three participants in funding
that study, first was the Department of Commerce, a Tourist Development Grant,
the second was the Dade County Economic Development Office and third the City
of Miami through our Office of Trade and Commerce Development. The Little
Havana Development Authority was fortunate enough to receive funding for a
tourist development study of Little Havana. That was shored up, if you will,
or supported by funding from the other two agencies. We with Dade County have
worked very closely with Mr. Alvarez in preparing the study and the recommenda-
tions which are being brought to you today. When Mr. Alvarez finishes I'd like
to make a couple of comments on some of the things that have resulted from his
efforts and from the Little Havana Development Authority's efforts in the 8th
Street area.
Mr. Raul alvarez: I would like to make a very short story that is very much
in line with the studies that we have made of the possibility of a Latin Quar-
ter for Little Havana. You all know the story of the child that found a wine
glass in the garden all full of mud, he cleaned it up and he had a beautiful
glass, he stroked the glass and it had beautiful sound and for a while he was
very happy. He put some sand inside and the sand looked beautiful but there
was no more sound coming out of the wine glass. For a moment tears came to
his eyes and he picked up a rose and put it inside of the wine glass on the
sand and he had something even more beautiful. Well, in the 1960's S. W. 8th
Street and the Little Havana area was run down, broken glass, empty stores and
"For Rent" signs everywhere. Paint and hard work took care of that for a while,
everybody was very happy. In 1966 a report was made for the City of Miami by
a consultant who said that the future of the area would be a slum, it would be
a run-down area, high crime and tears came to the eyes of the people, merchants
were moving out and the City of Miami planned and did a pilot area between 12th
and 17th Avenues on S. W. 8th Street, a Domino Mini -Park was built, C. D. moneys
were began to be assigned to the area, the beautification of S. W. 8th Street
almost completed and that was like a rose inside of the wine glass. We have
now something with a tremendous potential. The United States Travel Service
looking at the overall picture of Southeast Florida felt that there was a trem-
endous potential for tourist development in the area. Studies made based on
very very conservative figures show that there is a resident market of 2.4 mil-
lion people, that's about 14 of Dade County and 900 of Broward. Very conserv-
ative estimates of visitors to Dade County and Broward puts that figure at
about 10,000,000 people and if we use a very conservative estimate of 5% of
those people that is almost over half a million visitors could be oriented to
the area, we compare it to the Seaquarium in 1977 of 492,000 visitors, it
shows that if something can be done to the Little Havana area it could become
another tourist attraction. Results of that means more jobs for the people in
the area, longer stays for tourists and through a process of discussing it
with local merchants, developers, realtors, planners, architects, members of
the tourist industry we have been convinced that the potential for tourism is
29
there. The big question is how to go about it. Little Havana is to Miami
like the French Quarter is to New Orleans, however, the old buildings are not
there. Little Havana is to Miami like La Joyita in San Antonio is to the
rest of the city. However, the blighted area is not there.
Mayor Ferre: Nor is the river.
Mr. Alvarez: Nor is the river. Little Havana is more to Miami like Chinatown
is to San Francisco. It is basically a living culture, people live there,
people work there, they study, they are there. This is what makes the place
unique. Our studies show that with no grandiose scheme without disrupting the
life of the people there we can create an extraordinary tourist attraction for
the City and for Dade County. If you remember that Domino Mini -Park that is
on 15th and S. W. 8th Street right opposite the Tower Theater, that used to be
a vacant lot but people played there before, they played dominoes there before.
All we did was to improve the conditions and make it more liveable and I think
we have something quite unusual. The pilot area between 12th and 17th, there
were several "For Rent" signs, some empty stores, after the City put some trees,
and some bougainvilleas were donated and they're growing along the sides -
there are no more "For Rent" stores. But what has happened is that the suc-
cess of the area is also penalizing some of the residents. The rents keep go-
ing up, the barber shops, the shoe repair, the small groceries, the small cafes,
they are moving out because the rent is so high that they cannot afford it any-
more and there is no more commercial space on S. W. 8th Street. What we are
proposing, and you have received a phase I, phase II, phase III plan, is some-
thing very very simple. It is with existing City fabric that it could be com-
pared to a wire mesh because it is commercial on one part with no possibility
of residential and residential in other parts with no chance of commercial com-
bining. We are suggesting that a new special use district zoning be studied
and developed for this small area, the area shown there as Flagler and S.L.
Eth Street, 12th and 17th Avenue. That area is smaller than the French Quar-
ter is but it would be core for a very interesting development of the space.
If we could think for a moment that cities in Europe and Central and South
America have residents living above their places of work, very near by it is
what's happening, there are several examples along S. W. 8th Street of people
who have on the average lived there 71 to 8 years, some have been there 12-
15 years, since they arrived to the area. It is a very good cross section,
they have retired people, they have newly marrieds, people with children,
three, four, five years living in the same place even though there is not a
park nearby, even though there is no facilities of any kind. We find that
the right-of-way of those streets are too narrow to have the sidewalk cafes.
Parking is adifficult problem now and the success of the area is going to make
it even more difficult to the point where it's going to be the failure of the
area if we don't take the steps now to provide parking spaces. There are no
vacant lots to speak of, the only two within that area, and one costs $300,000
for 150 X 150 and because of the realestate that is empty that is zoned com-
mercial is prohibitive. However, there are considerable amounts of realestate
available - existing buildings that the ground floors can become ideal boutiques,
artist workshops, carftsmens' areas, small parks, plazas, landscaping, that
with the proper zoning can be enacted ane new solutions for the area can be
used. For instance, there are a number of small cafes and shops along 5. W. 8th
Street that have parking on the front. They have parking for four to six cars.
If a parking garage is in the immediate area the necessary parking can be on
that new parking garage and the front which is now asphalt and concrete can be
turned into a small park - privately owned most of the time as the case may be,
or an outdoor cafe or display of craftsmanship for artists or a little bazaar.
There is a tremendous potential if we go about it in a proper manner now. What
we have found out is that with a Special Use District for this area we could
have a small hotels, three or four stories high with a patio, fountain, the
workshop areas, places where the elderly people can be used, those with know-
ledge of English do not allow them to seek work outside of the area could find
it here as guides and as people who would be working in these stores. We feel
that if we can have the City Commissioners approve the idea that has been dis-
cussed with the Planning Department of the City and the County
is that with a special new district for this area, we could have the small
hotel, three or four stories high, with a patio, fountain, the workshop areas,
places which the elderly people can use. Those with knowledge of English, not
allowed to seek work outside of the area, could find it here, as guides, as
people who'd be working in these stores. We feel that if we can have the City
Commissioners approve the idea that has been discussed with the City Planning
Department of the City and the County, since September, we feel that this
area of the "Latin Quarters" which will not be in conflict with any of the
other developments on the Downtown or the Riverfront, will be a complement
to these developments. V: could have an attraction that is nowhere existent,
nowhere where the restaurants and artists' areas...that a number of decissions
and, of course...many other things could happen. What we need, first, is the
study to allow a special use zoning that could combine a commercial, residential,
the possibility of building mini -parking garages, hotels, outdoor cafes, restaurants,
a development plan in combination with the City htat will tell us where the
things should go.
Mayor Ferre: But Mr. Alvarez, I've been listening to you 15 minutes and you're
very nice but would you, just for me as I get and... would you just tell me in
2 minutes, in 20 sentences, exactly what it is that you want us to do?
Mr. Alvarez: Okay. What we dould like to have from you all is the same way
that the studies were made for the Mini -Park and the facade treatment is to
authorize the Planning Department to proceed with a special use district zoning
that we studies in your departments and a development plan that would come up
with the suggestions on how can zoning can (inaudible).
Mayor Ferre: I see, okay. Now, excuse, can you...are you in agree with this?
Mr. Fosnoen: Yes, sir.
Mayor Ferre: Okay.
Mr. Lacasa: Now, Mr. Alvarez, have this plan been discussed with the City
task force of the Little Havana?
Mr. Alvarez: Yes, this plan has been worked with merchants, with...
Mr. Lacasa: I don't mean the merchants, I mean the Community Development task
force of Little Havana.
Mr. Alvarez: Well, all of the members of the community task force, individually,
are aware of this plan like you as the past chairman is aware of this plan.
Mr. Lacasa: No, I'm quite frankly, I was not completely aware of this plan.
I knew something was being worked out, I didn't know about the exact location
that was being proposed. Let me clarify this, I like the concept but I would
like to see before this Commission further proceeds with this proposal of yours,
further is the input of the Community Development task force of Little Havana. Five
years ago, this Community Development task force was created and so far, has
been extremely instrumental in developing the Little Havana area. The first
concepts of re -development in this area came from that community task force
which incidentally, is the one that is selected by the people. Any kind of
proposal of this sort will affect not only the merchants but the people who
reside, the elderly, the plain residents and what frankly before of the
proceeding further with this, I would like to see the involvement of the City. Little
Havana Development Authority is a highly respected organization which has done
a lot for this area, is basically formed by professionals and merchants. What
has been little input, if any, I have been the vice-chairman of the organization,
from the so called grass roots of the area.So, a plan like this which could
have such a tremendous impact in the whole area, I would say that will require
very good understanding between the neighbors and an organization wuch as yours
before this Commission further proceeds with these questions.
Mayor Ferre: Mrs. Gordon?
Mrs. Gordon: Well, the feedback is bad. The point is well taken and I think
that we certainly should be involved-- I think that we are...(Inaudible, moved
away from the microphone)... but the intersection of 12th Avenue and 8th Street
would become another Ibor City, a similarity in fact, that it would feature
the Culture of the people of the area, however, I've been watching in recent
31
FEBRUARY 22, 1979
days the news broadcast, on Channel 10 and it disturbs me quite a bit that
there are people still residing in this area who are by the connotation not
Hispanic and who are resentful of what is happenings. Apparently we should
have some public relations done in order to, if you are going to bring
this about, you're not bringing it about after the fact, bring these people
and in any case... what you want to do but bring them in ahead of time and,
in fact have a public hearing and say look this will be beneficial to the
entire community, you're part of the community and not a separate part. You
belong to something else but you are part of this area --you're living
here, you'll benefit from improvements to this area. However, I don't think
we should authorize the Planning Department and then after the fact bring the
people in --no. That is bad and we did that once before. We had that problem
when we tried naming 13th Avenue Cuban Memorial Boulevard and boy did it fly
after that. J.L. knows very well because I can't tell you how many telephone
calls from people who are living there who normally don't express themselves
but at that time they expressed themselves very vocally. So, I think
Mr. Fosmoen, if you will devise a way that the people can be brought in to
the Chambers and could be presented with the pros of this developent scheme
before you go into a study you will accomplish a great deal of public relations
favorable public relations.
Mr. Fosmoen: What I would suggest, Commissioner, is that we take this issue
to the next Little Havana Community Development task force meeting.
Mayor Ferre: No, no that's not what whe is saying....
Mr. Lacasa: No.
Mayor Ferre: ... but let's be very clear, I guess is time for my two minute
lecture this morning
Rev. Gibson: Go ahead.
Mayor Ferre:...let me tell you something. I went up to Washington last
month to the Mayors' Mid -Year Conference and I had a wonderful experinece
at a function where the National Humanities came in and put on the different
things that they have done. The white Mayor of Birmingham, Alabama was the
star. He was a star, he said two things --first of all he is a historian and
I thought thie was very impressive to see a white man be the historian
and so enthosed about the whole Civil Rights movement in Alabama and how
Birmingham would be the kind of the centerof all this, Mr. Martin Luther
King and..He was very close and very indentified to it and evidently he is
one of the few white people in leadership positions. Ten years abo he was
involved in the whole process. But the second thing that he said was ask the
question. He said, we've got a Nattional Endowment and we started organizing the
neighborhoods. As of right now, Birmingham, Alabama has 75 neighborhoods
organized in what is a participatory democracy. Every issue that affects that
neighborhood, no matter what it is, that particular neighborhood committee
which has an elective board, and elective president, they talk about it --blacks
and whites-- they fight, they have their discussions and it comes eventually up to
the commission for decision. Now, we have that in a loose form in this community.
Now, a loose form is Grace Rockafellar and the Northeast Civil Association as it
tightly knit effective operation of people that are concerned, they work.
It happens some what in Coconut Grove but there we have splinter groups that,
we've got the Tigertail and we've got the Coconut Grove merchants, we've got
this, we've got....In Little Havana, we're beginning to get different groups too.
Mrs. Gordon: Yes, but you have to bring it up.
Mayor Ferre: And I think, what we really have to do for this City to really and
for Metro, and for all governments to be viable, I think we really have to,
we've got to recognize that the world at large, the citizens are losing their
respect or the beliefs is not only newpaper editorials and used car salesman
but they're also losing their beliefs in government. And if you remember
the gallop poles after, from the bottom up, you got used car salesmen, you
got editorials in newspaper on politicians are not far from each other in
credibility and I think that we really... and the Federal government is worst
than the local government bur we're a little bit better than the state and
federal government but our credibility factor is not there. And one of the
32
FEBRUARY 22, 1979
things that we have to do, I think all of us, is to try to gain the credi-
bility back. And the way to do that, I think, is to try to get people who are
in neighborhoods and communities involved in the decission raking, meaningfully
involved in the decision making process; and therefore, I ink that what
Grace Rockefeller tc.ld us in which I don't think really t, -ks anywhere else
except maybe Little Havana to some degree, Wynwood, AllA ,ttah but I don't
see it functioning for example well in Grapeland Heights. Grapeland Heights
used to have a very super -active civic group, still active but I don't
think is a strong as it used to be four or five years ago. And I really
think that we ought to start approaching, Mr. Grassie, some of these problems
like this, Raul, what you've done is wonderful, I commend you for it, I agree
a 1004. I do think that this might be a good time for us to begin to try to
get neighborhoods, to see what Birmingham... I understand that Oregon did the
same thing, someplace....
Mr. Fosmoen: Portland, Oregon.
Mayor Ferre: Portland, Oregon. I think we ought to find out what other cities
have done and I know I could just hear the editorials that we're setting up a
war system and that we're setting up a political machine and all that kind of
bunk; notwithstanding all of that I think we really should start trying to
organize a neighborhood program that functions with both CD and what have you,
and see what Birmingham and Portland have done and this might be a perfect
place to start. Arr3 what Rose is saying and I think she has got a very valid
point, is that it isn't just the representatives of the Little Havana CD Board
but also some of the other people that are not active. And then we have the
case of Allapattah, let me remind you, where the Allapattah CD Board is a 100%
Spanish speaking and we have some people, well it is, we have some people
represented by Pat Keller, the other lady, and all those people that also live
there who feel completely disenfranchised and I think that just, we can't do that,
you )cow, even the communities split 60% Black, 30% Puerto Rican in Wynwood or
what have you or 30% Anglo, 60% Cuban American. I think we've got to try at a small
enoug:: level, which is in a neighborhood level in pockets of twenty or thirty
thousand people which I think you could call a neighborhood and try to see
we can work in the direction that we have community support in some of these
thi:a� rather than a very intelligent, imaginative, dynamic man like Raul
Alvarez bringing a well thought out idea to the Commission, us ordering the
st aff to do it and then doing it, then having the public in process reverse.
Mr. 'amen Reid: Mr. Mayor, I'm under that idea. The city of Washington D.C. does
have a statute created system that would advise the neighborhood councils just along
the line with Birmingham.
Mayor Ferre: Well, I'd like to make a
today, that we officially as the City
done and neighborhoods. I think we'll
exactly what this town needs, I mean,
even more.
motion somewhere along the line here,
investigate what other dommunities have
call it participatory democracy and that's
not only...Miami needs and Metro needs it
Mrs. Gordon: (Inaudible),do we need a motion to direct the Planning Department
to hold a public hearing and reaching out to the residents of this area because
this is the project before us right now which ought to be moved forward but it
should be moved forward in my opinion in a proper way. So, I would so move that
we direct the Planning Department to reach out into the population, that means
all the population of this area and hold a public hearing, advise them of what
we would like to have done and get and input from them. I think it would be
beneficial, I would....
Rev. Gibson: Mr. Mayor, I don't mind....
Mayor Ferre: We have a motion
Rev. Gibson• I don't mind to second the motion providing, I heard Mr. Lacasa
said something that I think that needs to be taken advantage of. Now, how you
put the two together I don't know but it appears to me that whoever does it
needs to take advantage of that group, that's already there?
Mayor Ferre: It's an elective group.
33
FEBRUARY 22, 1979
Rev. Gibson: Because, you know, I know of the situation that that did not
happen and I'd be delighted to second the motion provided it is definitely
understood.
Mrs. Gordon: If they're part of the area, they should be part of us.
Rev. Gibson: I want to... tell us that committee, sir, I'll make the second
if that will help.
Mr. Lacasa: Definitely so, and I want to clarify this. This CD committee in
Little Havana was the result of an election in which the Anglos that live in
the Little Havana area participated and I have chaired that committee for many
years and in the great majority of those meetings there have Anglo participation
not in the same percentage of Latins for obvious reasons but they have been
there.
Mrs. Gordon: Not to those living there, but I'll tell you, I was really
hurt and apalled by Channel 10's revelation -of the bitterness that exists
in that area and I think it's incumbent nal r nnhlin nffinia1 $.n
break that resentment down.
Mr. Lacasa: Oh, I do agree with you, Rose. And precisely, this is a tremendously
good opportunity for us to instrument a way that everybody there--Anglos, Blacks,
and the Latins that live in these areas as well as in other area of the City,
could participate and could be listened to in these issues. But I believe that
should ;)e done first at the level of the neighborhood and take it from there
and then we come here with a united voice before the City Commission coming from
the grass roots all the way.
Rev. Gibson: I second the motion with the definite understanding that all....
Mrs. Gordon: Nobody be left out, Father.
Rev. Gibson: ...all those parties or groups will be involved.
Mrs. Gordon: Everybody.
Rev. Gibson: That's right and I want...and with the understanding that a public
notice is sent out or made available.
Mayor Ferre: A11 right, we're passing this motion of intent with the Clerk
have eventually written out so that we can just look at to what we're going
to get this afternoon so that we ....
Mr. Ongie: Yes, yes sir.
Mayor Ferre: All right, the motion, in other words, we will see the writing
of course it finalize this afternoon. All right, there's a motion and a
second, further discussion, call the roll.
The following motion was introduced by Commissioner Gordon who moved its
adoption.
MOTION NO. 79-88
A MOTION DIRECTION THE PLANNING DEPARTMENT
TO PUBLISH NOTICES AND CONDUCT PUBLIC HEARINGS
WITH ALL OF THE VARIOUS REPRESENTATIVE GROUPS
RESIDING IN THE AREA BOUNDED BY 8TH STREET
S.W. AND FLAGLER, BETWEEN 12TH AND 17TH AVENUES,
TO DISCUSS AND GET UNPUT FROM ALL SUCH RESIDENTS
CONCERNING THE CITY OF MIAMI CONCEPTUAL PLAN FOR
ESTABLISHING A "LATIN QUARTER" IN THE GENERAL
AREA PREVIOUSLY DESCRIBED.
Upon being seconded by Commissioner Gibson, the motion was passed and
adopted by the following vote:
AYES: Commissioner Rose Gordon
Commissioner (Rev.) Theodore R. Gibson
Commissioner Armando E. Lacasa
Vice Mayor J. L. Plummer, Jr.
Mayor Maurice A. Ferre
NOES: None.
34
FEBRUARY 22, 1979
FURTHER DISCUSSION:
Mayor Ferre: Plummer, would you chair for a second and I would like to be
recognized for a motion?
Mr. Plummer: So, be it.
Mayor Ferre: I would like to move that the City Administration be instructed
to write to Washington D.C. or Birmingham, Alabama or Portland, Oregon and
wherever else we find that a Neighborhood Participatory Committee Elected
Committee System is functioning effectively and to see if their success might
be applicable to Miami. And if so, to come back with specific recommendations
to the City Commission. I guess that covers it... Do you want to add anything
else to it?
Mr. Plummer: Is there a second to the motion?
Mr. Lacasa: I'll second the motion.
Mr. Plummer: Any discussion, hearing none, call the roll.
The following motion was introduced by Mayor Ferre, who moved its
adoption.
MOTION NO. 79-89
A MOTION DIRECTING THE CITY MANAGER TO COMMUNICATE
WITH CITIES IN WASHINGTON D.C., BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA;
PORTLAND, OREGON, OR WHEREVER ELSE IT IS FOUND THAT
A NEIGHBORHOOD PARTICIPATORY ELECTED COMMITTEE SYSTEM
IS WORKING EFFECTIVELY WITH A VIEW TOWARDS HOW SUCH
A SUCCESSFUL SYSTEM COULD BE APPLIED TO THE CITY OF
MIAMI AND TO MAKE FORMAL RECOMMENDATIONS TO THE CITY
COMMISSION.
Upon being seconded by Commissioner Lacasa, the motion was passed and
adopted by the following vote:
AYES: Commissioner Rose Gordon
Commissioner Armando E. Lacasa
Commissioner (Rev.) Theodore R. Gibson
Vice -Mayor J. L. Plummer, Jr.
Mayor Maurice A. Ferre
NOES: None.
Mayor Ferre: Alright, thank you. Thank you, Mr. Alvarez.
6. DISCUSSION OF PORNOGRAPHY AND PROSTITUTION ON BISCAYNE BOULEVARD.
Mayor Ferre: We are now on the discussion of pornography and prostitution
on Biscayne Boulevard. Is the Chief here? Yes. Chief? Mr. Grassie?
Mr. Grassie: The next item on your agenda Mr. Mayor and members of the City
Commission, is a question of discussion of progress being made and lack of
progress in trying to control places of pornography and the level of prostitution
on Biscayne Boulevard North.
Mayor Ferre: We are going to recognize you Grace later on.
Mr. Grassie: Members of the community have expressed some significant concern
about this. I would like for the Police Chief to make some introductory
statements or his staff and after that, possibly Mrs. Rockefeller.
Mayor Ferre: Alright. Chief? Mr. Knox, excuse me, I just wanted to before
V5 FEBRUARY 22, 1979
yarn you that one of the questions that is going to be asked, that I'm going
to be asking here, is I read in the newspapers about some kind of an agreement
of some sort that has been made to some of these people of which my Office
knew nothing about and I have had researched on the divisional policy statement
from the Commission's point of view and I assumed that your staff had been
working on this and I think you are going to need some clarification as to
how that came about and what that is and where are we and what have you?
Alright, Chief?
Chief Harms: Mr. Mayor and members of the Commission, we have been concerned
for some time with the activity that's been occurring along the Biscayne
Boulevard area and we have shared those concerns with Mrs. Rockefeller and
the groups that she in fact represents. What I want to do for the next few
moments is provide an overview of the Police activity within that area. During
the year 1978 were eight hundred nintey-eight arrests that were made for
prostitution and lewdness along Biscayne Boulevard.
Mayor Ferre: How many of them, sir?
Chief Harms: Eight hundred nintey-eight. There was an additional one hundred
seventy-six arrests that were made by the Officers that were primarily working
that area to address the problem of prostitution, that's a total of one thousand
seventy-four. During January of this year there were one hundred seventy
arrests and they were broken down generally into two classifications, Johns
which constituted 85 or half of those arrests and the prostitutes which
constituted the other half. It's a very complicated issue, it's seasonal to
a large degree. We expect an annual influx, particularly doing the cooler
months of the year and we also expect an influx of prostitutes around the
time period that the Super Bowl is played here in Miami and we are in fact
reasonably accurate in that prediction. There was quite an influx of women
that were in fact working the Boulevard areas. We increase manpower just
slightly during that time period in order to compensate for it. Our normal
complement of Police Officers in that general area and we are talking about
basically a three zoned area that includes the Boulevard, ranges from thirty-
seven down to twenty-nine. We have a couple of enforcement Officers working
traffic along the Boulevard...
Mayor Ferre: Sir, you are going to fast for me, you said thirty-seven
sworn officers...
Chief Harms: Yes, sir. It ranges... that's correct.
Mayor Ferre: ... to twenty-nine that are on patrol there on a continuous
basis? Is that what you are saying?
Chief Harms: That's correct, in a twenty-four hour time period.
Mayor Ferre: Yes.
Chief Harms: And we... in the fluctuation or the difference in those figures
basically involves the use of plain clothe Officers to attempt to arrest the
customers of the prostitutes and Johns and we will normally deploy three men
teams in order to accomplish that. When traffic becomes a problem as it is
associated with the pickups along the Boulevard, then we will deploy enforcement
Officers as well and that accounts for the difference in figures from twenty-
nine to thirty-five. The area generally... the three zoned area accounts
-for approximately 6-1/2% to 7% of our total part one criminal offenses...
Mayor Ferre: Of part one? What is part one?
Chief Harms: Well, that includes murder, rape, robbery...
Mayor Ferre: Part one is what we layman call violent crimes?
Chief Harms: It includes those. Yes, sir that's correct. It also includes
larcenies and auto thefts and crimes of that type. That area in fact,
experiences... we are talking again about the three zone area that includes
Little River and along Biscayne Boulevard, approximately 7% of the total
City crimes and we have deploy approximately 9% at the thirty-seven figure
of our available manpower on a twenty-four hour basis, uniformed manpower
to relieving some of the problems within that general area. This hopefully
will give you an overview of what the Police Department has been about,
again, it's a complicated issue. Our output if you would, represents the
input for other parts of the system. We arrest, we process, we send them
36
FEBRUARY 22, 1979
before the Judges and then, of course, the Judges have an opportunity to
pass judgement on the cases that we have heard. In order to facilitate
that overall process, we have met a number of times with Mrs. Rockefeller
and her group, with the State Attorney who has been extremely cooperative
Ms. Reno and with members of the judiciary as well. As recently as last
week, I had a meeting with five of the Judges and the majority of the cases
involving prostitution or lewdness, in fact come before those Judges. They
understand the problem, but they are somewhat limited in their ability to
deal with it as well. We have encouraged reasonable sanctions being placed
against the prostitutes and the Johns in the hopes that this will deter that
type of activity along the Boulevard. Determent certainly has to be in terms
of taking them off the street and putting them out of business when the cost
of conducting business exceeds the profits associated with it, then we
certainly expect to experience a decline in the gross numbers of people that
are in fact moving through the Biscayne Boulevard area reeking to ply their
trade. I would re certainly, pleased to respond to any particular questions,
I don't want to carry the dialogue on too long without it being directional.
Mr. Plummer: What's the average time being given upon conviction?
Chief Harms: The average time, approximately 13% of the total that are
convicted serve for fifteen days and over. Approximately 48% of those
convicted serve under fifteen days and approximately 28% are fined, but there
is a problem with the fine per se if the person that's being fined doesn't
pay it, then an alternative is not incarcerating them.
Mayor Ferre: Alright, wait a minute, let me understand this right, let me
get the sequence of this. Last year there were eight hundred nintey-eight
prostitution arrests in the Northeast part of town along Biscayne Boulevard?
Chief Harms: That's correct.
Mayor Ferre: Alright, now, how many prostitution arrests did the whole City
have? I'm just trying to...
Chief Harms: I don't know, I didn't break that figure out. We were particular
interested in addressing the Biscayne Boulevard area, so I don't have those
figures.
Mayor Ferre:
problems are,
Chief Harms:
certainly up
problems.
Well, my question is, is this where half of our prostitution
80% of them, 90% of them?
It's going to be very subjective, but I would say that it is
in the 80's or 90's. It represents a vast part of our prostitution
Mayor Ferre: So, in other words, the prostitution problem in the City of
Miami is fairly well concentrated in one area along Biscayne Boulevard?
Chief Harms: It's certainly most visible along that part of our community,
yes, sir.
Mayor Ferre: Alright, now, of the eight hundred nir"-,y-eight and plus the
one hundred six that were... I didn't quite understand what the one hundred
six... these are related crimes?
Chief harms: Well, there was eight hundred ninety-eight that were specifically
for prostitution and lewdness and there was an additional one hundred seventy-
six arrests made in that same general area by the Officers that were deployed
to address the prostitution problem.
Mayor Ferre: Ok, but...
Chief Harms: And these were for other offenses in the same area.
Mayer Ferre: Alright, now, the eight hundred ninety-eight how many of those
arrests result in convictions?
Chief Harms: We don't have a breakdown on the total because it's difficult
to track all of them completely through the system. We did however, track
cases between June of last year in December and during that time period there
were a total of six hundred forty-one cases. Now, all of those cases have
not been heard, but of those that were heard, we did a breakdown in terms
of percentages and based it on an overview of five Judges, the five Judges
37
FEBRUARY 22, 1979
that hear a majority of these cases. In that particular category of one
hundred convictionu, actually it was ninety-nine convictions, we then had
a breakdown according to the number that were fined, the number that were
incarcerated for fifteen days or over, the number that were incarcerated for
under fifteen days, probation and that pretty well covers the convictions.
Mayor Ferre: Well, I guess what I'm trying to get to Chief is I'm trying to
get the clear understanding is, are we arresting these people and are they
out on the street in three hours?
Chief Harms: The answer to that is, yes, we are arresting them and the answer
to the second part of that question is, yes, they are generally out in a very
limited period of time. If their past track record with the judicial system
indicates that they will appear in court, then a Judge will not generally
turn -down their release.
Mayor Ferre: Well, now, as I recall about three or four years ago was meeting
with Grace Rockefeller and the Northeast Improvement Association, we went
through a whole series of things and we changed some of our laws. As I recalled
we increased the fine, we also had some kind of a scale where first offense,
second offense and third offense and then there was... the time factors kept
increasing. That wasn't thrown out by the courts was it as unconstitutional?
Chief Harms: i,;o, sir, the most recent ordinance that deals with that issue
is present on appeal from the Public Defender's Office, but it has not been
ruled en at this point in time.
Mayor Ferre: So, in other words, what this Commission had ruled on to
tighter up has fairly well stayed?
Chief Harms: Yes, sir it has.
Mayor Fe-ro: Now, the question is that I understand... I understood at one
time, I forget whether it was Janet Reno or who told me, that one of the
probl.:; w. that one of the Judges simply thought that the Miami City laws
with prostitution were so absurd that you won't pay attention to them.
Chief Harms: Judicial discretion.
Mayor Ferre: Yes.
Chief Harms: It's a very individualistic sort of thing, I was...
Mayor Ferre: Is there anyway we could classify it, but I don't want to start
a big tirade against Judges around here, but it seems...
Chief Harms: Well, I don't either because I don't think it would be completely
fair. There is a number of issues they have to address, some of them are in
fact more effective in terms of the kinds of sentences they impose. The
reason we did a breakdown according to Judge is I had planned to still do,
to send them copies of our general breakdown just for their general information.
And I was encouraged by the meeting I had with the Judges the other day, I
understand that since that point in time, one particular defendant was given
two sixty day sentences for at least two of the eleven cases that she was
charged with.
.Mayor Ferre: I think that's a kind of deterrent that might make somebody
think twice about walking along Biscayne Boulevard. As Bishop Caroll told
me at one time, he said "all you are doing is moving them to another part
of town and why don't you address the social problems", I said "well, I think
we should address the human social problems with these people that are
fortunately involved in this pattern, but we also have to address the safety
of the community because... you know, we get accrused, well, why don't you
worry about the typical crimes like rape and murder and all that kind of
stuff, but the fact is that prostitution is not something that you can isolate
by itself. It brings drugs, it brings breaking and enterings, it brings
muggings on the street and has all types of unfortunately related activities.
Now, the point actually is, is there anyway that we can tighten -up in the
relationship now that we have a person in the State Attorney's Office, Janet
Reno, who seems to be very interested in this, who seems to be cooperating
and working much more than we evidently, had before for whatever reason
and... Isn't there a way that we can work with the Judges, I don't mean that
38
FEBRUARY 22, 1979
we should go out and classify Judges, but if one particular Judge had a
hundred cases in which he ust releases ninety of them, I would assume that
that Judge doesn't have any belief in that prostitution is a problem.
Chief Harms: I would concur generally with you statement, certainly with
respect to the attitudes of individual Judges, but not wanting to have to
step forward and defend them. Again, it's very individualistic and some
are more effective than others. Again, I have been encouraged with the
recent meeting I had with them and will continue to support strict sentencing
for prostitution and prostitution related offenses. I think that's one of the
only methods to help eradicate the problem.
Mayor Ferre: Do these Judges, in your opinion Chief for the most part,
understand the extent of the problem with prostitution? I mean, do they
understand that it isn't just a what they call a non... a victimless crime,
you know, and they say therefore, we shouldn't really be that hard on them.
Do they understand that there are victims and that there are other related
crimes that come along with it?
Chief Harms: In all of my discussions with the various Judges, incuding the
ones last week, they led me to believe that they had a very full understanding
of the total impact of the community.
Mr. Plummer: Let me ask this question. I think really what we want to hear,
is there anything this Commission can do to assist you or other people in
brinri:.g this situation either under control or the goal that we all want to
see alid that is the Boulevard returned to what it was. What can this Commission
do, if anything?
Chief Harms: Commissioner, I certainly would have to agree that there would
be a certain amount of benefit that could be obtained though flooding the
area vitt, uniformed Police. But recognizing our present limitations, our
manpower limitations and our resources, out total resources we have applied
just rI)c,ut as much manpower as we can stand to apply. There are, of course,
a number of competing interest to it in the community that demand to be addressed
and this is one of them. So, if you talk in terms of what the Commission
can do, if you can reach deeper into your pocket and I'm not sure how far
you are into that pocket now, but I think you are pretty far down there, come
up with some more Policemen and that might help relieve the situation. I
don't really know that, that's a realistic solution or a reasonable response to
your question.
Mayor Ferre: Chief, how many... when you call them class one arrest...
Chief Harms: Part one, that's classified by the FBI, uniformed crime report.
Mayor Ferre: The part one arrests. How many did we have last year totally?
The City of Miami's?
Chief Harms: Total?
Mayor Ferre: Forty thousand? Twenty thousand?
Chief Harms: I will have that answered for you in just a moment.
(BACKGROUND COMMENT OFF THE PUBLIC RECORD)
Mayor Ferre: Ninety-one hundred?
Chief Harms: This was for a three months period, that's correct.
Mayor Ferre: A three months period, ok.
Chief Harms: Yes, in round figures.
(BACKGROUND COMMENT OFF THE PUBLIC RECORD)
Mayor Ferre: No, I'm just thinking out loud, you know. And this is about
thirty to forty thousand a year, alright.
Chief Harms: Correct.
u9
FEBRUARY 22, 1979
Mayor Ferre: ... of which a thousand are related in this area, so I'm just
trying to get a figure.
Chief Harms: No, now these offenses that I just indicated to you, the thousand
arrests, they are not represented by the... generally by the part one offenses,
these are misdemeanors.
Mayor Ferre: Well, what I'm trying to get to I guess,... here is my question,
here is where I'm going. What percentage of the problems would you say that
the City of Miami Police Department has that's caused by prostitution? I
mean, is there anyway we know? Is it a big thing or is it a relatively small
thing as far as arrests are concerned?
Chief Harms: It's extremely difficult to measure, but we think that they are
very interrelated and we think that when an area... a community starts
deteriorating, there is a proliferation of bookstores, X rated movies, other
types of activities such as street walkers involved, that this will in fact
create a lot of crime in the general area and I don't have any figures for
you on that.
Mayor Ferre: Let me get some specifics, here is my question. Row many sworn
Officers do you have?
Chief Harms: We are authorized for 705 and I think we have 692 at the present
time.
Mayor Ferre: Well, let's say it was seven hundred, just to round it off with
a nice easy number. Now, supposed... you are talking about, you said from
thirty-seven to twenty-nine Officers, so let's just take the high and I say that
most you have thirty-five. Now, the way I understand this, for every
twenty you are deploying 5% of your force in this particular area for this
particular problem at the maximum.
Chief Harms: I will agree with your math, I have worked it out, but that
sounds apr-^ximately correct.
Mayor Ferre: Ok. So, my question is, is this 5% of our problem or is it a
bigger portion of our problem?
Chief Harms: It depends on how you classify it as a problem. We are certainly
very cognizant of the part one offenses and try to address those in realistic
terms. So, if we talk about prostitution being 5% of the total problem, I
can't relate to it in that respect. It's very much tied in with many other
things that are occurring within that community.
Mayor Ferre: Chief, I remember some years ago, going up to a LEAA Conference
in Washinaton it was a conference of Mayors' League of Cities and what have you basic
conclusion of what this management consultant is saying, he say "look, in the
business world if you are talking about... let's say you run a fleet of a
thousand trucks, ok. Now, there are ninety-seven things that could go wrong
with the truck that occur on this chart, but of the ninety-seven things that
occur wrong there is five of them that makeup 75% of the problems. So,
therefore you've got to deploy 75% of your resources on those five things".
Now, the conclusion that, that man was saying is if you take a average American
Urban City, now the majority of the crimes are committed by people in the
age of fourteen to twenty-five, in overcrowded areas drug related. 75% of your
-crime whether it's breaking and entering, battery, rape, stealing cars and
that's it. So, that therefore the problem is that the Police Departments go
around and because they have to patrol, you know, Baypoint or Brickell Avenue
or what have you, that they don't... they have to deploy forces to get the
traffic violators on streets and giving tickets to people are things that
need to be done in the regular Police Department in rendering that service
and therefore, they end up not having enough men and women, sworn Officers
that deploy in the three or four or five main things that are the real causes
of the problem. Now, I ask you, this is my question. I would assume that
the prostitution problem in the Northeast area of Biscayne Boulevard is more
than 5% of our problems?
Chief Harms: It certainly is within that area of the community, in Coconut
Grove it may not be 5% of the problem.
Mayor Ferre: Shouldn't we then say we are going to have a crash program for a
40
FEBRUARY 22, 1979
three or four month period during the time... we know that the problem
occurs sometime from November to sometime in March. Shouldn't we...
I'm just asking as a preventive measure, that you could put these things on
charts ant have 411 of these deployment... you know, they fought a war in
Vietnam like that and didn't do so good. But may be you can put it all in
the computer and come out with the fact that during these months you know
that you are going to have more activity and instead of thirty-five Policemen,
we are going to have sixty or seventy for those months deploying that
particular area to try to off -set the problem. I... you know...
Chief Harms: Yes, your theory is very good, but frankly we don't have the
resources to do that. It's that simple.
Mayor Ferre: Well, see, that's exactly what that LEAA man was saying...
Chief Harms: The LEAA man, I'm not sure where he is getting his information,
but we are not sharing that information. We don't have sixty people to put
on that problem, Mr. Mayor.
Mayor Ferre: No, no,no, you see, what he was saying is given a department of
a thousand men, how do you deploy these people? And if you do it the normal
way, you come up with the conclusion that you just came up with, we don't
have the men. Now, what he is saying is, that if you look upon it... I think
it's called management by, not by objectives, it's management... you are the
expert on all of these things. Management by...
Chief Harms: Mr. Mayor, we frequently refer to it as management by crisis,
when a problem comes up, we try to address it.
Mayor Ferre: No, no, no, that's exactly what he is trying to say that we
shouldn't do.
Chief Harms: I understand what you are saying.
Mayor Ferre: It's management by objectives. And what you do is, is you
define yy::r major problems and you go overboard in trying to get those
particular major items under control and if you know that they reoccur for
a three month period during the year, that's when you do it.
Chief Harms: That's precisely what we do. We increase manpower within those
specified periods of time to increase the number of arrests as the number of
prostitutes increase as we are talking about this problem.
Mayor Ferre: Joe, may be I didn't explain it right, but I think you and the
Chief both understand what...
Mr. Grassie: Yes, I think that we understand the direction that you are
talking about Mayor and it make a lot of sense. Let us work on that.
Mayor Ferre: My second question on this... the second question is, you heard
the little talk that we had here about neighborhood participation? The thing
that really impressed me at another one of these crime things that I went to
in Washington, was that most of these FBI and Police expert people that were
there kept repeating the same thing. The most effective Police Departments
are those where the citizens are involved. Now, we have had this discussion,
we had it at the budget hearing. Now, we have a group of citizens that are
_ super interested in this problem because it's affecting their daily lives.
Now, there is... I'm not saying that we have to start vigilante societies
going around patrolling the streets and what have you, but those neighborhoods
at a neighborhood level that are properly organized with stationed
from the neighborhood who are interested in self help and will cooperate
with the Police Department and when there is a rapport between the Police
Department and that neighborhood, usually as I understand it those are
usually the best examples of how Police work is effective because then instead
of having thirty five Officers, what you have is thirty-five Officers plus
two hundred involved citizens that are here in the eyes of the Police Department
and you prevent the problem before it starts, so to speak. Now, what progress
are we making in this particular neighborhood with this particular problem
and in working hand and hand with the neighborhood organization?
Chief Harms: We work very closely with Mrs. Rockafellar in that neighborhood
and her entire association and we have for some time and we will certainly in
41
FEBRUARY 22, 1979
the future. Progress in other neighborhoods, we actively seek out community
groups and meet with them on a regular basis, most community groups as an
example will have at least a monthly meeting. We have people within our
organization that attend those monthly meetings to be available to respond to
questions and issues.
Mayor Ferre: How many neighborhoods do you have organized that way, Chief?
Chief Harms: There are probably ten organized meetings a month we attend in
addition to the crime watch programs that we are involved with as well.
Mayor Ferre: I'm sorry, you said ten.
Chief Harms: Yes, that's in addition to the crime watch programs we are
involved with.
Mayor Ferre: Well, let's say... those ten that you have got organized, what
would you say... what percent of the City that this organize? Is that about
a quarter of the City or 1O% of the City?
Chief Harms: Generally the most active organizations are those that represent
the outline, the smaller business communities, such as Coconut Grove and Little
River, Allapattah, groups of that type. And we are...
Mayor Ferre: Now, are those the active ones, Coconut Grove, Little River,
Allapattah, Northeast?
Chief Harms: Yes, that's correct. They are the more active ones. It's
difficult to establish a... in some communities a crime watch program because
of the nature of the neighborhood itself, if it's not a closely knit neighborhood
and we are continuing to try to expand in that area as well.
Mayor Ferre: Chief, a little constructive criticism and my uninformed opinion.
I don't think that we are doing this thing either right or we are doing enough
of it. And let me tell you something, there is only one way we are going to
be able to do it Mr. Grassie and that is again, by creating neighborhood
programs where you enthuse the neighborhood in becoming involved. It's not
something that happens out of the Police Department going in and enforcing
something or pushing it, it's not going to happen that way. And what you have
the Coconut Grove, the Allapattah, you know what that is, those are merchants
that are organizing themselves because they have to do it out of self interest
and that's not what I'm talking about. The only... you name me any other...
you see what Grace Rockefeller is doing which is a great service to the City?
We ought to have ten Grace Rockafellars in this town. And you name me any
other neighborhood organization, neighborhood or people who live, not merchants
or bankers or people who are affected... their businesses are affected, home
owners that are organized and that come and take care of their neighborhood
and are concerned about their City the way the Northeast Improvement Association
is. You see, that shouldn't be unique, that absolutely should not be a unique
case. That's all I have. Any other questions or comments?
Mrs. Gordon: I don't have a need to address the Chief, but I have an overriding
concern that we are treating the symptoms instead of us approaching the problem
and I would like to address myself to Mr. Fosmoen, if he is here.
Mayor Ferre: Mr. Fosmoen?
Mrs. Gordon: Apparently he is not. Oh, he is. I'm sorry, you were hiding
behind Mr. Grassie.
Mr. Fosmoen: I'm sorry.
Mrs. Gordon: When I said that, I really mean it sincerely because upper Biscayne
Boulevard is a depressed area, not only because the street walkers are out
walking, but because all the stores and businesses have shuttered their doors
and the economic level in that area is very low. And from the Planning
Department's view, what do you feel could be done to stimulate the area to
bring business back into the area? You know, we can put all the Policeman
out there you want and that's not going to stimulate the revital of that area,
you've got to jump in there at a deeper level. What do you suggest that we
do? How do we proceed?
42
FEBRUARY 22, 1979
Mt. Fosmoen: Commissioner, I agree with the Mayor's comments on neighborhood
organization. I think that, that has to be as two levels. One, at sort of a
residential neighborhood level, the other one, specifically targeted to
deteriorating commercial areas. We are currently working with several areas
and they are showing some success. We need to find some funding to work with
the Biscayne Boulevard Association, it is not an eligible community development
target area. There are some Economic Development funds available, Julio
Castano's Office has met on a number of occasions with people in the Biscayne
Boulevard Association trying to put together some packages. I think that's the
best way to begin to work with those kinds of areas to give them access to
federal funding like SPA funds, Commercial Rehab funds that the County has
available. You know, it's a matter of getting in and getting the job done.
We don't have the dollars to do it at this point.
Mrs. Gordon: Alright, how do we get the dollars and how do we begin? What's
the first step?
Mr. Fosmoen: I think probably the first step Commissioner, is to talk with
this Commission in the near future about a strategy for dealing with distressed,
local, commercial areas. You know, it's not only Biscayne Boulevard, it's the
Little River area with Annette Eisenberg, it's the Little Havana Development
Authority and 8th Street, it's Allapattah Merchants Association and...
Mrs. Gordon: Yec-, I agree, but I'm going to...
Mr. Fosmoen: ... we need staff in order to service those people.
Mrs. Gordon: Ok, I realize that you have a lot of other areas, but let me tell
you that in my opinion, Biscayne Boulevard is the front door of the City of
Miami. Anyone coming into the City of Miami comes in by far down Biscayne
Boulevard and believe me, it's a depressing sight to see it with over grown
front lawns and unattended shrubbery and boarded up door fronts and I think
it's a disgrace and I honestly want to see us attack this on that level.
And I believe if we could attack it on the economic level we will automatically
drive out the hookers because then, they will find it an inconvenient place
to walk because of the stimulated economy and the other businesses which are not
related to their operations.
Mr. Fosmoen: You know, there is another area that I neglected to mention
that I think we should also look at as an model, it's just around the corner
and that's Coconut Grove. The merchants in Coconut Grove asked for a special
assessment district in order to begin to operate their community, so you know,
there are a number of tools available.
Mrs. Gordon: But, Dick you know very well until you start the ball rolling
you aren't going to get anybody asking for an assessment, so you are going to
have to do something, number one and then may be number two or three, they
will be willing to do that. So, I would like to move that this Commission
direct the Planning Department to proceed to study the area North of 36th
Street with the ecomonic Improvements of that area in mind and come back to
us with recommendations about how we should proceed and do that rather quickly.
Mayor Ferre: Yes. Now, Joe, there is a motion on the floor, is there a second?
Mr. Lacasa: I'll second the motion.
Mayor Ferre: Mr. Lacasa seconds. Alright, now under discussion. Joe, this
is the conversation we had with Bob Kaplin , ok. I mean, so this is... I
saw him here earlier...
(BACKGROUND COMMENTS OFF THE PUBLIC RECORD)
Mayor Ferre: Of the Little River Chamber of Commerce.
(BACKGROUND COMMENT OFF THE PUBLIC RECORD)
Mayor Ferre: Ok, well, but I... the point is that this is something that
know is coming to a boil again and we really should take advantage of the
natural forces, you know that... who are requiring some action on this and
you and I spent an hour with Bob Kaplin a couple of Saturdays ago and this
is what he was talking about. I think we really should proceed on this.
It's not too far different from what we talked about in Little Havana.
Mrs. Gordon: Well, I haven't talked to him, but I certainly agree. And I
43
FEBRUARY 22, 1979
honestly believe that we should address ourselves first to the Boulevard
because it's the front door and the spillover of benefits will come about
on the other adjacent areas and if there are... as a spillover study you might
also take that Little River study as part of this thing.
Mayor Ferre: That's a separate thing, I think.
Mrs. Gordon: I really would like to address this primarily to the Boulevard
right now.
Mr. Grassie: We agree with you entirely. Jim Reed has as one of his
assignments worked on this and he is also trying to identify a staff person.
We anticipate that by March 15th or so he will be able to make a staff person
available to work almost full-time on this area.
Mrs. Gordon: Ok.
Mayor Ferre: Alright, call the roll.
Mr. Ongie: I'm sorry Mrs. Gordon,...
Mrs. Gordon: My motion, you didn't get it down? Ok. This motion was to
direct the Planning Department to begin to do a analysis of the Biscayne
Boulevard area North of 36th Street immediately with the economic
revitalization of that community as a prime objective.
The following motion was introduced by Commissioner Gordon, who moved
its adoption.
MOTION NO. 79-90
A MOTION DIRECTING THE PLANNING DEPARTMENT TO
BEGIN AN ANALYSIS OF THE BISCAYNE BOULEVARD
AREA, NORTH OF 36TH STREET, WITH THE ECONOMIC
REVITALIZATION OF THAT COMMUNITY AS THE PRIME
OBJECTIVE.
Upon being seconded by Commissioner Lacasa, the motion was passed and
adoped by the following vote:
AYES: Commissioner Rose Cordon
Commissioner Armando E. Lacasa
Commissioner (Rev.) Theodore R. Gibson
Vice -Mayor J. L. Plummer, Jr.
Mayor Maurice A. Ferre
NOES: None.
FURTHER DISCUSSION:
Mayor Ferre: Alright, Grace Rockafellar?
Ms. Rockafellar: Mr. Mayor and members of the Commission, I'm Grace Rockafellar
I live at 814 Northeast 71st Street. I'm President of the Northeast Miami
Improvement Association and President of the Northeast Taxpayers Association.
I am appearing here today as a private citizen. Now, before I get into what
-I came here to talk about to follow-up on what you said Mr. Mayor and what
Rose Gordon has just stated. The reason our association is so effective,
when we got into this fight on pornography and prostitution to try to restore
the economy and character of the Northeast area of Biscayne Boulevard is route
1 which is the gateway to Miami from the North. All the other Civic Associations
in the community... Now, this goes from Northeast 87th which is the boundary
on the North to Flagler Street which is the boundary on the South, Miami Avenue
on the West and Biscayne Bay on the East. All the other Civic Associations in
the entire area wanted to join in, they agree with what we were doing and they
were for it. They decided the best way they could do, they would retain their
own association, but all their members and officers have jointed the Northeast
Miami Improvement Association along with every legitimate business person in
that entire area which covers a quarter of the City of Miami. Now, we did
have just a few short years ago our area was assessed higher than any other
area on the tax rolls of the City of Miami. We had a very strong economy and
44
FEBRUARY 22, 1979
1
er)
a character that was above reproach. And then the prostitutes started coming
in and our association took nine motels before the State Division of Hotels
and Restaurants, thanks to Mayor Ferre getting them involved in the first
place, had their license revoked, we even sent one owner to jail for showing
child pornography. Now, what Chief Harms failed to mention a while ago when
you were talking about cleaning up the prostitutes, we requested and received
massive Police force on the street fur about five weeks continuously, day and
night they were there. You will see two prostitutes walking on the street,
there will be two Officers on foot right behind them. If the prostitutes
crossed the street, the Officers crossed the street and this went on for a
period of several weeks. At the end of that period and I was on that Boulevard
every night watching them, seeing what was going on. At the end of that time
we went two months that you could drive that Boulevard and never see a
prostitute, no matter where it was you just didn't see one on Biscayne Boulevard.
The merchants there, you talked about the shuttered buildings on the street,
many of them were operating behind closed doors and many of them were still
broken into, several of them wound up in the hospital with fractured skulls
from being robbed and beaten up... The prostitutes were so bad that legitimate
businesses,before their costumers could get into their place of business, they
were solicited, mugged or robbed or beaten, this is what has taken the Boulevard
down, an addition to the pornography. Now, the real reason I'm here today is
that this Commission is aware that the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled, community
standards will govern obscenity in their community. It did not say City
standards, County standards or State standards, it said community standards.
Now, through the combined efforts of the Little River Chamber of Commerce the,
Northeast Miami Improvement Association and the Northeast Taxpayers Association,
Belle Meade Property Association, the Baypoint Properties Association, the
Bayshore, the Bayheights, Morningside and the Biscayne Association, between
those combined we have established community standards. We want these pornographers
out of the way. Now, if you recall we appeared before this City Commission,
we asked for a new ordinance which would govern the licensing of these places.
This City. Commission has worked well with us before, you did pass this ordinance
and you passed it on an emergency basis whereby based on convictions, their
license would be revoked. Also, anybody with applying for any of these, what
we call now under our adult entertainment ordinance, applying for a porno
bookstore, a porno movie house, an escort service or anything like that, that
goes along with this sort of thing, if they had a conviction they did not get
a license. If they didn't have a conviction, they would get a license, but
must go into the area that was set aside to be zoned for that. After we got
this ordinance passed and the number of ordinances that we got passed before
this City Commission, then we asked this City Commission to revoke the license
of these pornography places which you did. Nva, several of them hired these
high priced attorneys and they had temporary injunction against the City so
that they could stay open and do business. This has been what?, now about
a year and a half ago, we were wondering whatever happened to those temporary
injunctions. I cannot find anything out through the City Attorney's Office,
I have tried, but you can't learn anything when he doesn't return your calls
or accept them which has been the case with my situation with the City Attorney.
Now, I don't know whether they are too busy, got too much to do or what. Three
weeks ago I had a call from the State Attorney's Office telling me that the
Assistant State Attorney that was prosecuting these cases and incidently,
everyone of those places that you revoked the license on have had numerous
convictions since that time, and these attorneys were representing their
defendants and a few of the Judges take them out of their chambers... take them
out of the court into the chambers and let the Defense Attorney set their own
fee, like if they have four or five arrests, the maximum fee is five thousand
dollars, they might get out with two hundred dollars per fee, they can make that
up in a night on four or five convictions. But the State Attorney's Office
told us that the Defense Attorneys told them "well, you are not going to be
pushing us around anymore because the City Attorney is going to grant us
amnesty, we are going to plead guilty to the charges, he is going to grant us
amnesty and then we can go ahead and get our license and these convictions
will not be held against us". And I called you Vice -Mayor Plummer and I talked
to you about it, you said to write you a letter and you would get it on. You
asked me why the State Attorney hadn't told you. I questioned the State
Attorney about it and then he said "well, he assumed that the Mayor and the
City Commission knew what was going on in their own legal department" and I
said " I doubt it", but then when this article appeared in the Miami Herald
and I will only refer you to one paragraph in the last two paragraphs here.
It says "fighting back, some theatre owners recently sued the City of Miami.
Accusing it of illegal harassment and demanding damages for lost business".
Now, get this "in a complicated round of negotiations, the City Officials,
you are the City Officials, and the lawyers are close to a unique arrangement
in which the exhibitors would drop their lawsuit and plead guilty to existing
45
FEBRUARY 22, 1Q'9
charges. In turn the City will agree not to hold the pornography charges
against the theatres when their license to do business comes up for renewal".
Now, we think this is absolutely horrendous, my phone rang and rang and
rang. I got a hold of a few of the Commissioners, I got a hold of you,
Mr. Plummer, I was able to get a hold of Rose Gordon. I couldn't reach you,
but I think...
Mayor Ferre: You talked to Marie.
Ms. Rockafellar: ... Marie Petit, she got a hold of you.
Mayor Ferre: I was out of town.
Ms. Rockafellar: You were out of town, but she got a hold of you, she called
me back and said it was going to be on this Commission. Now, you people, this
City Commission and you Mr. Mayor are being blamed for this in the entire
community out there, when I knew along you didn't even know what was going
on and this was confirmed in talking to the Commissioners, you had no idea
that this kind of a arrangement was going on. Now, we had... there was a
business meeting called with all the merchants shortly after this and they said
"what is happening down there? Is the City Commission writing off one quarter
of the City of Miami?" Are you saying that you don't care what happens out
here? The pornographers can operate. The pornographers at the Police Department
have testified and believe me, we have got a lot of respect for our Police
Department. When Chief Harms said that they worked with us, they have.
They have responded to everything we have asked for, they have really worked
with us. You have worked with us, Janet Reno has worked with us, you have all
wor'.:ed with us. But if one person can set aside all this...
Mayor Ferre: Let's get to it Grace.
Ms. Rockafellar: Alright.
Mayer Ferre: George, would you clarify then... what's this all about, what's
going on and what's been done and where are we?
Mr. Knox: Ok, I have prepared a summary in writing for you, but in response
to your question I can indicate to you that the Miami Herald article was not
inaccurate in it's...
Mrs. Gordon: Please, talk a little louder George.
Mr. Knox: I said the Herald article was not inaccurate in saying that there
was a complicated agreement being talked about between the City Attorney's
Office with the participation of the State Attorney's Office, the City of
Miami Police Department and the attorneys who represent at least seven of the
bookstores who's licenses have been revoked. Now, I can give you a summary
of what these negotiations are about, but first I must assure you that these
negotiations are no where near fruition and that no negotiations would be
concluded, of course, until there is a complete report given to the City
Commission and the City Commission decides whether or not this is a reasonable
manner in which to address the problem. Now, the City of Miami is currently
involved in the State Court, the Federal Court, in the Third District Court
of Appeals, in seven different cases involving the revocation of licenses
or the refusal of the City of Miami to issue licenses for those persons
who operate pornographic bookstores and theatres. In every case the City
of Miami has operating are subject to a temporary restraining order or an
injunction which provides that the City of Miami shall take no action to
close these bookstores until such time as the questions are decided by the
highest available tribunal. The law of the State of Florida provides that
an individual is not officially convicted of an offense until the Supreme
Court has had an opportunity to review the original conviction, so that because
an individual is convicted of an offense in the Circuit Court does not mean
that, that individual does not have a right to exhaust his or her appellant
opportunities. Because an individual is convicted of an offense in the
Circuit Court does not justify the City of Miami in closing that place of
business until that conviction has been affirmed by the Supreme Court of the
State of Florida. In the Federal Court the City of Miami has been enjoined
from even requiring establishments to apply for licenses which have expired
since the time that they filed their lawsuits, so that we have a situation
where there are bookstores and threatres operating with expired licenses.
As a matter of fact, the City of Miami Police Department went into a bookstore,
examined the license, found that it had expired and found also that the owner
had not applied for a new license and endeavored to close the establishment.
46
FEBRUARY 22, 1979
3 10
The owner of the bo .store retained an attorney, went to the Federal Court and the
City of Miami was very close to being cited for a contempt of it's injunction
against interfering with the operation of these bookstores. Nowin light of
all of this, based upon a motivation which was initiated by the attorneys for
the bookstores who number one, recognized that there do not appear to be
constitutional infirmities in our new ordinance and they are likely not to
prevail in our taxes upon the new ordinance and number two, because at least
two of the attorneys who represent bookstore and theatre operators have
expressed a desire to discontinue their representation of the individuals
who are now their clients and number three, because the proposed agreement
represents a manner in which the slate can be wiped clean, if you will, that
all of the appeals will be voluntarily dismissed so that we don't have to
wait for the Supreme Court to make a ruling, neither the Supreme Court of the
United State or the Supreme Court of the State of Florida and number four,
because our existing ordinance has not been challenged and we are confident
that it is a constitutional invalid ordinance and number five, because the
efforts of the City Attorney's Office and the Police Department and the State
Attorney would be enhanced by not having to labor under existing injunctions
and temporary restraining orders. We have been in negotiations with the
attorneys who represent seven bookstore and theatre operators and a part of
the arrangement, if you will, is that all of the existing appeals will be
voluntarily dismissed by the attorneys for the bookstore and theatre operators.
Number two, that on all pending criminal charges those individuals who have
been charged will plead guilty. Number three, that the corporate structures
will be reorganized in their entirety so that no individual who occupies any
position in the corporate structure will have had a prior conviction and
number five, that having plead guilty these individuals are subject to
whatever penalties that the court would impose. The practical effect is that
our brand new ordinance which is presumed to be constitutional will then be
effective in dealing with revocations based do the dispensation, say of
distribution of obscenity and number two, we will have relieved ourselves, if
you will, of seven different pieces of litigation in four different courts
and the other component of this whole idea is, that there must be a realization
by ail of us that the Supreme Court of the United States has established a
right of individuals to sell pornographic materials. Number two, that the
Suprerat .,curt of the United States has also declared that it's unlawful to
sell obscene materials. The most important component of that particular element
is that a determination of obscenities made by a Criminal Court on a piece
by piece basis so that if any individual for example, is convicted of selling
a pornographic movie among hundreds that may be in the theatre, then the only
thing that, that individual has to do is refrain from selling that piece of
obscene material and the City has no right to close the place once that piece
of material has been removed from the establishment and the individual who is
being convicted is purnished. And that's the state of the law at the present
time and the agreement is... there is nothing insidious nor devious about the
proposed agreement. It's in preliminary stages, we are subject to the will
of the Commission, any indication to the Commission in the opinion of the
City Attorney at any time prior to now would have been premature.
Mr. Lacasa: George, in these negotiations and this proposed agreement we
have heard about this evening, assuming that what the City wants is to
eliminate pornography out of the City, so we have heard the benefits we are
getting. I would like now to hear what the other party is getting because for
them to enter into a negotiation and for attorneys to represent the interest
of the jobs that sells the pornographic stuff, there has to be something in
it for them. So I would like to know what it is.
Mr. Knox: To the best of our determination, what's in it for them is that
'they continue to operate pornographic bookstores and theatres as they contend
and we all agree to have the constitutional right to do. They don't have a
constitutional right to sell obscenity and their representation is that
they will clear out all of the individuals and all of the materials that are
sensitive to the community standards and they do have a right to operate a
business which sells pornographic material.
Ms. Rockefeller: Mr. Lacasa, what this would do if this went through, would
wipe out all of the hard work the Police Department has done and wipe all the
hard work... Now, any attorney, a sharp attorney can threaten you. Now, you
wondered what happened to the ecomony, we have a great number of investors,
real estate and financial institutions that are trying to work with us, but
when we try to get a piece of property sold that's surrounded by pornography,
an investor will not put his money in there, he says he wants a safe place
not only for his business and his employees, but for his customers. And he
doesn't think that going in surrounded by hard core pornography... Now, at
47
FEBRUARY 22, 1979
this meeting of all the merchants in the entire area, the other night, they
requested that the City Commission take all these porno cases, all these
pending cases out of the hands of the City Attorney, evidently they are too
busy with other things, and the City Commission choose a good aggressive
law firm and put them in there and get these places closed down. A law
firm that can stand up to these high priced attorneys that are hired by these
pornographers. Now, I was sued by ore of these, Joe Hirschold and the Judge
threw it out of court because he was defying my civil law to appeal to
my elected official for a redress. And so, all you have to do is stand up
to these people, but what we are suggesting and it's been brought out here
today, that all the money that's gone into other communities, there has never
been five cents gone into the Northeast area. Now, you are going to say "that's
going to cost money to get a law firm out there to handle these cases", of
course, it's going to cost money, but it's going to pay dividends and big
dividends. We get these place closed down, we have every opportunity in the
world to bring in legitimate business and get this area back to the economy
it was before and heaven knows that City of Miami needs good business on the
tax rolls and lots of it. And this is what we are all striving to do out
there, but we are faced with obstacles just like this. We were just absolutely
shocked when we heard this, that they were going to be given amnesty, everything
wiped out and they go again. And when they say that they are going to rent
a porno place without showing any obscenity, I don't know who they are fooling
because it is obscenity and the State and the U.S. Supreme Court has said
community standards will regulate obscenity in a community and we have
established that. So we would like to ask this Commission, for you this
Commission, to choose a good aggressive law firm, put all these pornography
cases in the hands of that law firm and let them go after them and get these
places closed down and that will be the first money that has been allocated
through the City, through anything to help the Northeast. We are trying to
help ourself, we have financial institutions, we have a gentleman here and we
had several of them that had to leave and we still have an officer here from
the Miami National Bank. We had an officer here from the First State Bank,
we had an officer here from First Federal Savings, we had an officer here
from Flagler Savings this morning and we had a number of people here that
had to leave, that couldn't stay, but they had no idea that this was going
to go on, they thought it was going to be held first on the agenda. But this
is what the business people want, they want this thing taken out of the City
Attorr.ey's Office where they have all the other things of the City to do and
put in the hands of a good aggressive law firm. Now, you take North Miami,
they one hard-core pornography place open up, up there. Now, with the help
of that City Council and a good aggressive City Attorney, in less than two
weeks they had it closed down. Now, we know it can be done. Now, we are not
for just wiping all these things out and say ok, boys you are good little guys,
you just go right ahead and start over. Sure their attorneys are going to
get the best for them. Now, one other thing that they were talking about a
while ago was on the Judges. A week ago I was invited by the North Miami
Chamber of Commerce to address...
Mayor Ferre: Excuse me. Would you let somebody... I don't know who is making
all the racket back there, but could you have an officer walk back there...
Ms. Rockefeller: But I was invited by the North Miami Chamber of Commerce,
they had a breakfast, to address the Dade Delegation and when I spoke, I said
there is two things that we want and I explained the problems here. And as
Chief Harms said we have about five or six Judges, we know who they are, we
have six that turn these girls loose as fast as they come in there. There is
two different bookstores in a row, that had... one of them had four charges
against them, another had five. One day, one Judge... the attorney for the
bookstore says "well, I want to go into your chambers and discussion this",
the State Attorney is standing there... "let's go to court on this" and he
says "well, I can't afford to pay that twenty thousand dollars, it would hurt
my client" and the Judge says "well, we don't want to hurt him. What do you
want to pay?" he says "we will pay a thousand dollars" and the Judge says
"alright, I will take it". So, the things that we ask our State Legistlature
to do and we will be up there in April lobbying for this. We are one of five
States in the whole union that does not have the right of recall of Judges.
Mayor Ferre: Does not have what?
Ms. Rockefeller: The right of recall of Judges. We are one of five States
in the union that does not have that right. We asked for that right, and
we explained that, that right would not be abused, that while there are
many fine Judges sitting on the bench, there are a half a dozen that we feel
are not qualified to sit on that bench that work with the wrong people...
48
Wrnn,iw.+v ww ' nr+r+
Mayor Ferre: That would put the fear of God in them.
Ms Rockafellar: Pardon?
Mayor Ferre: That would put the fear of God in them.
Ms. Rockafellar: Well, I explained to them, you wouldn't have recall more than MR
one. We also asked for a very strong... State-wide they have a number of very
confident attorneys in the State Legislature, to ask for a State-wide law on
anti -prostitution and anti -pornography and they are going to push it through
and they are going to sponsor it and we will be up there in April lobbying the
State Legislature for it. But we are here today to ask you and we certainly
hope that you will grant us this, put these things in the hands of a
competent lawyer, a law firm that will spend their time on it and get these
place closed down. We don't believe in giving them amnesty, that's not going
to help us at all.
Mayor Ferre: Well, that's not to imply... excuse me, because I got to make
this statement into the record, hopefully with your concurrence. That's not
to imply that we have an incompetent law staff.
Ms. Rockafellar: No, no, that isn't it at all.
Mayor Ferre: I think what we are saying in effect, is that some times these
things require specialized legal expertise.
Ms. Rockafellar: The City Attorney's Office probably has many, many, things
other than this to take care of. But they probably don't figure that this is
important or they don't have time to put on it and this is the reason that
they are asking you to put it in the hands of a good competent law firm, that
you are paying them to do the job, they are going to do this job, you are
paying them for this job and they are going to do this job.
Mayor Ferre: Alright.
Mr. Lacasa: I don't have any reservations as to the ability of the City
of Miami Legal Department to handle these kind of cases. I do believe that they
are perfectly able to do that. However, I have a reservation of one point,
the City Attorney's Office has entered into negotiations that I particularly
don't care for and let me tell you why. It's the law of the land and I am
very familiar with the rulings of the U.S. Supreme Court on these issues.
It's the law of the land, means that we are going to have to swallow this
so big, but I want that to be imposed onto us and not to be negotiated by the
City. We the City resent that, we don't share that. This takes me to another
point and that point is, that you the City of Miami Legal Department has seen
fit to enter into negotiations with the attorneys for the pornographic shops.
I can see the benefits of those negotiations on the stand -point of you avoiding
to go into the Supreme Court of the State of Florida and get rid of this thing.
However, since I do not share, as I said before and I explained the reasons,
why those negotiations shall be continued and I don't think that you the Legal
Department of the City should be placed in a position of breaking negotiations
that you have entered into. I would have to take the recommendation of Ms.
Rockafellar, that we should, well, frankly retain another law firm, not because
I feel that it would be better than what we have in the City of Miami now, but
due to this type of situation. And I would like to make a motion to that
respect, that the City of Miami retain a private law firm to handle the
question of the licenses of the pornographic shops and I...
Ms. Rockafellar: And all the pending cases.
Mr. Lacasa: On all the pending cases and I will like for Mrs. Rockafellar and
her group to try to get some recommendations before this City Commission and
also to try to make it as cheap as possible for the City and try to get a law
firm that will cooperate with us on the economic...
Ms. Rockafellar: Well, the City is going to have to make their own deal.
One other thing I might say in defense...
Mayor Ferre: Excuse me, Grace. Excuse me. We have a motion on the floor
now and I have to ask for a second and then we can discuss it...
9
FEBRUARY 22, 1979
Mrs. Gordon: May I have a clarification of that motion, it's not clear to me
exactly what it includes. Would you repeat the motion please?
Mr. Lacasa: The motion is for the City to retain a private law firm that will
represent the City in handling the question of the licenses of the pornographic
shops including, but not limited to the pending cases.
Mrs. Gordon: I'll second the motion.
Mayor Ferre: Alright, now under discussion. The motion has been moved and
seconded. I would like to point out, but I think under the Charter and if not,
certainly under operating procedure around here in the past, the City Attorney
usually is involved in the process of selecting and the reason for that is
that the City Attorney has to work with the law firm chosen. That doesn't
mean that they are going to necessary choose the law firm, but...
Ms. Rockafellar: Well, I would like to suggest Freddie Frates outfit. Now,
he has a group... I have known Bill Frates for a long time and he has many
confident attorneys in there. They have many constitutional attorneys in there,
it's quite a large firm and I think that they would more or less handle it.
Now, one other thing I want to say in defense of the City of Miami Legal
Department is, as Mr. Knox knows, as this City Commission knows, they have lost
twc... you get attorneys in there and they go in a training period and as soon
as they get good enough, they go out and go into business some place else.
We lost tic-. We lost Mike Anderson, and who was the last one you lost?
(BACKGROUND COMMENT OFF THE PUBLIC RECORD)
Ms. Rockafellar: Who?
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKFR: Klausner.
Ms. kocti.�:t11ar: Yes, Klausner. As soon as they get a little experience, then
they leave and go out. So, this is why we are suggesting that... and this is
nothing derogatory about the City Attorney's Office itself, it's just that
with the help turnover and the load that they have, we want somebody that's
hired that will exclusively take over these things, do a good job and get
them closed down.
Mrs. Gordon: I just want to state that we are not setting precedence. In
many, many instances we have hired expertise who have a special knowledge
about particular subjects and that is exactly what you are saying and I concur
with that. And I know Mr. Knox doesn't think there is any personal affront
because he doesn't have to...
Ms. Rockafellar: There isn't and none is intended, none is intended.
Mrs. Gordon: Ok.
Mayor Ferre: Alright, we have a motion and a second, is there any...
Mr. Knox: Yes, I would like to speak when it's appropriate.
Mayor Ferre: Yes, sir Mr. Knox.
Mr. Knox: And now, Mrs. Gordon you are right that I don't take it as a personal
affront necessarily, but I will point some things out to you and perhaps I should,
well, I am more personally involved than I would ordinarily be, I will put it
that way and I would like to point some things out to the Commission and begin
with a parable with Father Gibson's permission. If not a parable, a
reference to the bible. I was told that Jesus Christ was effective in his
ministry every where except at Nazareth where he was from because in Nazareth
he was not...
Mr. Plummer: Father, you better start taking up law.
Mr. Knox: ... regarded as the great prophet that he was, but he merely regarded
as the carpenter's son, that Mary and Joseph's boy, and without appearing to
be immodest, I will have to step down from my mantle of extreme modesty just to
give you some information to consider in advance of your voting on the
question of outside counsel. Now, while the City Attorney has many and
varied responsibilities, you may not be aware that this City Attorney has
a specialty, and that specialty is in the area of obscenity, pornography and
prostitution to the extent that this City Attorney has written a hundred page
50
FEBRUARY 22, 1979
article for the Nova University Law Review that will appear in april, to the
extent that this City Attorney makes speeches and Mr. Plummer can attest to
the fact that I am out a lot, all over the Country on the subject, to the
extent that this City Attorney attends every seminar that is offered any
where in the Country on the subject, to the extent that our office receives
approximately two thousand pages a month of materials, court cases and
ordinances from other parts of the Country relating to prostitution and
pornography.
Mrs. Gordon: You have been modest all this time, perhaps too modest.
Mr. Knox: Well, I would like to continue. And I can advise you that the
prostitution ordinance that our office drafted with the assistance of Professor
Robert Waters and Jessie McCrary is the only one of it's kind in the United
States that has been copied by several Cities in the State of Florida and
recently has been adopted by Akron, Ohio that has been the subject of scrutiny
by Academicians, Judges, and Lawyers all over the Country and has passed that
scrutiny. I can also refer you to the December issue of Playboy magazine
which contain an article called Sex in Miami and the person who wrote...
Mayor Ferre: That had nothing to do with President Carter, did it?
Mr. Knox: ... the article specifically warn Playboy's readers against attempting
to enlist the services of prostitutes in the City of Miami because of it's
strong prostitution ordinance, so that now... and I can additionally advise you,
in addition to my own personal expertise in this area that's recognized by
others because of my own modesty, there is a member of my staff, an attorney,
who spends virtually full-time dealing with this question because the law
changes literally everyday. Now, with this in mind and with my representation
that you will not find more capability nor confidence anywhere in this town
relating to obscenity and prostitution, I will close my comment.
Mrs. Gordon: I will remove my second right now.
lis. Rockefeller: Mr. Mayor, I just listened very carefully to Mr. Knox's
comments, but it took us four months to get an anti -prostitution ordinance
and that was after I requested that you hire an outside attorney. Now,... so
if Mr. Knox is involved in all the things he has been involved in may be
that's one of the reasons that he is so busy and we are requesting an outside
attorney.
Mayor Ferre: Grace, do you want to know something? The more I think and I
live through the problems of Miami, the more I realized that more than half
of our problems to this town are lack of communication. I think that so many
things happen around here...
Ms. Rockafellar: We are here communicating all the time.
Mayor Ferre: ... you know, both at the City level, the staff level, the
Commission level and the newspaper level, at the neighborhood level, at the
Law Department level is just simple old lack of communication. We just don't...
I guess we don't have the time or we are too busy doing other things. We
don't really tell each other or fully inform each other or answer to each
other. I would like to, since Rose has now withdrawn her second the motion
stands sofar without a second.
Mrs. Gordon: Well, now let me say why, I mean...
Mayor Ferre: I will let you answer it in a second, Rose.
Mrs. Gordon: Yes, ok.
Mayor Ferre: Let me finish and I will recognize you both. I would like to
recommend that perhaps and George I say this with a great deal of respect
for you and your ability. You are not always the easiest person to get to.
I've... Marie is up there and I don't want to... now, Marie tried to get you
last week for two days, I know you were out of town. Now, I'm the Mayor of
Miami and I sometimes have a hard rime getting a hold of George Knox. So
I think perhaps we really have to try to be more available and communicate
a little bit more. Perhaps, I think if George you... Now, I think Rose made
a very valid statement, she said "you know, why did you keep all these things
such a secret?" Well, you are a modest man, I know that for a fact. Now,
51
FEBRUARY 22, 1979
I have seen it happen many, many, times and perhaps you ought to be a little
bit less modest and you ought to tell us these things before the fact and
certainly tell Mrs. Rockafellar and the people in the neighborhood and perhaps
make yourself a little bit more accessible and available so that we don't have
these communication gaps. Now, that being said Rose I will recognize you
for...
Mrs. Gordon: Ok, I just wanted to say because the issue came before us
relative to whatever, you know, took place prior to this. And George I'm
not saying that at you know, some other point in time if things haven't
improved greatly that I would not want to second that motion and I know you
have many responsibilities. slow much concentrated effort will you be able
to put forth on this issue now, immediately?
Mr. Knox: Alright, I can represent on the public record the following;...
Mayor Ferre: Wait a minute.
Mrs. Gordon: I can't hear you sir.
Mayor Ferre: There is some... you know, we are getting to... Mr. Manager,
we are getting to be like Miami Beach. Now, you are going to have end -up
keeping an officer walking back and forth to keep people from coming in...
Mr. Plummer: Well, but you see that's not the answer. The answer is, is
not to let people congregate in the back where they feel they can't be heard.
Now, there were signs out there and the one time the officer, Mr. Mayor,
tried tc enforce it at the last meeting Mr. Danny Paul got up here and raised
holy hell about the fact that the officer was asking them to take seats and
you seed to the officer "you know, don't be so harsh on them." Now, the
only answer is to you know, ask people to come take a seat or go else where,
one ei the two, you can have...
Mayor Fer..• Ok, you made a point and it's valid, I accept it.
Ms. Rockafellar: Mr. Mayor, the proposal that we came down here on, we are
not for and there is nobody in the Northeast for this. We do not want them
to be granted amnesty, we do not want them to have everything washed away and
given a license and right back in business... doing business as usual. Even
after you revoke their license they have had numerous convictions since that
time. Now, the only thing we can say is that I put the request before you
that was put to me by all the merchants in the Northeast area that are losing
business day after day after day and they thought may be this year they
would be able to make a living. But we are absolutely opposed to this.
Mr. Plummer: Mr. Mayor? Two things Grace, number one, as I see the problem
the real problem here is unfortunately the lack of communication, that you
have not been informed of what the City Attorney... Now, for whatever reason
is that you are not informed or he doesn't return your calls, I think that's
what needs to be done is to break down that so called barrier, that Mr. Knox
will keep you, you know, definitely informed as to what's going on. Now,
you are right when you said before that Jessie McCrary and the other gentleman
were brought into the ordinance on prostitution, but they did'nt work
independently, they worked with Mr. Knox on that issue. I think another point
to be remembered is that everything has to come to roost back to Mr. Knox as
our legal representative. The thing that's not being answered is if the
merchants feel that this is such a crime problem, you know, and there is no
question that it is,...
Ms. Rockafellar: There is definitely is.
Mr. Plummer: ... that there is nothing to prevent them from putting their
monies... putting their mouth, you know, their money where their mouth is
to get a, what do you call it?, Amecus Curiae to join with Mr. Knox in this
situation. Now, Grace all I can say is I will accept that in Dade County
that Mr. Knox, based upon the credentials he has just presented, is may
be one of the most knowledgeable individuals in this particular area that
there exists.
Mayor Ferre: But that's not the point, you see.
52
FEBRUARY 22, 1979
Mr. Plummer: The point is that you are not aware of what he is doing and
why. And I think the final thing...
Ms. Rockefeller: We don't like what he is doing, we don't like what he is
doing at all.
Mr. Plummer: Ok. Alright, the final point Grace is exactly what I told you
over the phone when I said schedule it for the Commission. That which was
reported that he had granted a amnesty to these...
Ms. Rockefeller: He just confirmed it. He was going to, he
do that.
Mr. Plummer:
these people.
Ms. Rockefeller: No, J. L., I said I was informed by the State Attorney's
that they would not have the attorneys to push around anymore because the
City Attorney was going to grant them an amnesty, that's exactly what I
said.
was going to
you said that I know that he had granted amnesty to
Mr. Plummer: Alright, now, you have just clearly heard Mr. Knox on the record
state that he has not, it is not his intentions at this point, he is merely
entering into a negotiation which before finalized would come back to this
Commission for authorization.
Mayor Ferre: Alright, ok, you have already made that statement and Grace,
repeating now, you have already made your statement before and I think we all
understand what the issues are. There is a motion on the floor and I go back
to you to see if you can...
Mr. Lacasa: I want to go back to that motion and I want to reinstate the
motion and I want to explain...
Mr. Plummer: Well, excuse me, Mr. Mayor, I think the motion at this point
is out of order.
Mayor Ferre: He made a motion, let's go through the process.
Mr. Plummer: He made a motion which had a seconded...
Mayor Ferre: Rose seconded it and then she withdrew.
Mr. Plummer: That is correct.
Mayor Ferre:
me recognize
And there is no pending motion on the floor. Mr. Lacasa asked
him to make a motion.
Mr. Plummer: Oh, I'm sorry, he can make another motion. I'm sorry.
Mayor Ferre: So he has got that right and that way if he gets a second...
Mrs. Gordon: May be he will make a new motion that will be acceptable.
_Mayor Ferre: Rose, the man said would you recognize me and I said Mr. Lacasa,
and at that point everybody jumped on me. You know, he has got the right.
Go ahead.
Mr. Lacasa: Ok, here I go again.
Ms. Rockefeller: Well, I want to ask the Commission one question that I
can take back, an answer to one question. If this proposal as presented
here by Mr. Knox today and as in the newspaper comes before you, are you
going to approve that motion,that you are going to grant amnesty, do away
with all these charges, let them plead guilty and not hold them against them
on their...
Mayor Ferre:
forgive me I
Mr. Lacasa:
been talking
have brought
That's precisely the point, Grace and therefore, if you will
will now recognize Mr. Lacasa.
The point that I have been trying to make is this. We have
about community standards specifically, Mrs. Rockefeller, you
up the point and I do agree with you. The community standards
53
vrBRUARY 22, 1979
that you were initiating here are shared fully by me and I hope that also,
by the rest of the Commission.
Mayor Ferre: Well, our voting record shows that.
Mr. Lacasa: This means that while the City of Miami Legal Department had all
the rights to enter into a negotiations of the sort they have entered into
with the attorneys for the shops in question, regardless of the success of
those negotiations, I myself as a City Commissioner will not share them
because even though I do agree with the attorney that the law of the land
and probably the Supreme Court of the United States will come down and would
say that they do have the right to sell their pornographic stuff or whatever.
At least ourselves, we feel should not enter into those negotiations and
condone that. If that is the law so be it, we will comply, but that doesn't
mean we share. Now, 1 understand the position in which this placed the
Law Department, from attorney to attorney they have entered into this
negotiation with good faith. Now, here comes the City of Miami Commission
and it says we don't share whatever the outcome might be and that will leave
them hanging. In other words, what we are doing is we are disenfranchising our
legal representative to continue those negotiations.
Mayor Ferre: No, that's not the point.
Mr. Lacasa: If that is the philosophy that this Commission has that would
be the end result, Mr. Mayor. So in view of that is what I am proposing,
that we retain an outside counsel because this position of ours will place
Mr. Knox in a very difficult position because he will have to break
negotiations and then go into court. Therefore, without any reflection
whatsoever because even though I was not aware of your credentials in this
particular field, I do feel that your Law Department is a highly qualified
one, is because I made that motion and I do reinstate the motion.
Mayor Ferre: Alright, now there is a motion on the floor, is there a second
to that motion?
(BACKGROIJNt) COMMENT OFF THE PUBLIC RECORD)
Mayor Ferre: It's the same motion as before. Is there a second to the
motion? Alright, now let me see and I may seconded the motion in a moment,
but I want to make sure. I think...
(BACKGROUND COMMENT OFF THE PUBLIC RECORD)
Mayor Ferre: I... Well, let me speak for a second because I have listened
and now I want to express an opinion. Father Gibson on several occasions,
Mrs. Gordon and others, all of us. Now, I have expressed during the past
few years the problem of this Commission taking a policy posture which
sometimes because the administration does not understand or there is confusion
about the policy or because there are other policies that are involved don't
always necessarily agree with the position that staff takes. Now, I give you
for example, the classic case of several years ago when this Commission went
on record instructing the administration to do certain things in Tallahassee
with the Labor Board up there and Mr. Mielke went up there and took
somewhat of a different task. Now, that was a specific case where it was
one thing what the Commission agrees... now, Mr. Mielke and the Manager's
answer and quite so, was that from a strictly professional point of view...
now, Armando I want Mr. Knox to hear this because from a strictly professional
-point of view that was the right thing to do. And therefore, as a professional
Mr. Mielke was following his professional judgement. Now, that may be, but
the way this government works whether some people like it or not, is that
this Commission sets the policies. Now,... and I'm not talking... when I
say some people sarcastically I wasn't referring to the administration, I'm
talking about other people who like to editorialize differently. The point
simply is that we are the policy setting Commission, we are elected, there
is an election every two years to set policy. Now, the question of judgment
on policy is one that this Commission takes into consideration the Manager's
recommendations, from a professional point of view, there may be other
circumstances that are involved whether they be... and I am not afraid of
the words politically, but that's what this democracy is based on, the
political process. Racial problems that have to be taken into account, the
account that we have certain unions that perhaps have been ignored or people
that haven't been properly represented, there are a lot of other things
54
FEBRUARY 22, 1979
involved in this other than the two and two makes four professional approach.
Now. George applying all of that to you I think what may be happening here
is that you and your professional knowledge and your ability have been dealing
under the circumstances as you see them from strictly a legal point of view
and you are a legal realist, knowing how far you can go and how far you can't
go and trying not to be like all good Judges or Lawyers to be in anyway
embarrassed by coming up with law that won't stand up to the scrutiny of
a test that is inevitably going to come. And if you can gain advantages
in the negotiating process based on your knowledge of what the court will
uphold and not up hold, then I think you are pursuing that in the best
interest of the City, that's what your professional responsibility is.
However, that may not coincide necessarily with the policy of the City of
Miami Commission. If for example, we embrace the philosophy that we don't
necessarily agree with some of the conclusions of some of the courts and the
fact is that the courts continually are reversing themselves, including the
Supreme Court of these United States who for one decade says one thing and
then the Nixon Court says something else and what have you, courts are
continuely changing. Now, with that as a basis I think what Grace Rockafellar
is trying to point out and what Armando Lacasa was saying is that perhaps
what we really should do, is temper what you are doing recognizing what the
policy is of this Commission. You may be right from a lawyer's point of
view legally, but that may not be all that's involved, we have the neighborhood
to consider. And perhaps it may be a period victory where we only gain
six months or three months or a year and then we have to start all over again
through another series of laws. But I think it's absolutely essential, not
that we have a legal victory, but that we have a community which feels a
certain amount of backing from it's City Council that feels that we are
responsive, that feels that we are doing the utmost and the maximum in our
neighborhoods, that the neighborhood impact is being adhered to, that the
businesses don't have to leave the Boulevard, that people are... that we are
responding, you see, because you have to deal with the truth and with reality.
This Commission has to deal with the truth and with reality also, but we
also have to deal with what is perceived as being the truth and those two
things have to be balanced and what I guess I am saying is, I agree with
Armando Lacasa and with Grace Rockafellar and the fact that we have got to
somehow not only do what is academically and legally, logical and reasonable,
but it has to go in conjunction with the neighborhood. And therefore, I
think the policy of this Commission might be contrary what you would do if
you were left alone. Your client is this City Commission and when your
client tells you, listen, you may be right legally, but in the long run that's
not the way we want to go. And I guess what I would like to recommend Grace
is that before we go out and hire Bill Frates and his law firm or somebody
else, that we let... we have between now and the next meeting a week or may
be two weeks. Let's see what happens... would you... let's give it one more
try. Would you and George get...
Ms. Rockafellar: Well, the only thing we are interested in Mr. Mayor, is that
we want them closed down. We want them closed down, we want to be able to
and I don't like the recommendation that you made Commissioner Plummer. I
have been in this Commission Meeting many, many times that many, many people
have come here. They have asked for five thousand dollars to help sponsor
a festival, they have asked for twenty thousand dollars for this and that you
would tell me "well, why don't the merchants go out and chip in their own
money, put their money where there mouth...
.Mayor Ferre: No, no, no,...
Mr. Plummer: That isn't what I said.
Mayor Ferre: Yes, but that can be misinterpreted, you see.
Ms. Rockafellar: Yes, but this is the way I understood it and I was surprised
and I'm glad I misunderstood you.
Mayor Ferre: Grace, we are not doing that...
Ms. Rockafellar: We have never gotten a dime in the Northeast. We can't
even get tree planting out there. We've never gotten a dime and this is the
only thing we have asked you for, is to hire an attorney and get this mess
cleaned up.
55 FEBRUARY 22, 1979
Mayor Ferre: Mrs. Rockefeller, I would like to request that you and the
City Attorney's Office meet with you and your representatives, not you,
but the people that are interested in their neighborhood and see if in the
process that we go through... and Mr. Knox, let me again reiterate to you
that the consensus of this Commission as has been expressed in more than
one vote, is that we not acquiesce, that we not accept compromise, that we
proceed as a policy statement in the direction of enforcement as rigidly
as we can... And this is not your decision, but the decision of this Board.
Now, if I missed any please correct me.
Mrs. Gordon: No, I think the fact the other motion did not get a second
that a proper motion might be that we instruct the Law Department to vigorously
enforce the removal of these operations which are detrimental to the
economic benefit of the community, in fact it's just the opposite, I'm in
favor of what you said, that I don't want to grant amnesty. I don't want to
give an inch to them. The question that was before us is whether this Law
Department through it's own resources or some other outside law firm shall
be the agency who are the body to enforce it. I say that with the expertise
Mr. Knox has informed me he has on this subject and lAth your cooperation
with him, in the next couple of weeks we can determine whether we are going
to be able to accomplish any in-house changes and if not, then this Commission
can decide.
Mayor Ferre: Let's get the second and then you can make your statement.
Mrs. Gordon: Ok.
Mayor Ferre: Alright, we have a motion is there a second?
Mr. Plummer: The motion... well, I want the motion to be stronger. I want
the motion to say to stop the negotiations of amnesty. Now, that's what I
want the motion to say.
Mrs. Gordon: Well, that's what I'm saying, vigorously enforce. Did you
want to say stop negotiating amnesty? I think that just pins one thing and
we want the whole package enforced.
Mayor Ferre: Wait a minute. Now, J. L., if you do that what you are doing
is you are preempting a qualified attorney from coming to a conclusion. I
would much prefer if you let Grace and George discuss this between them.
Ms. Rockefeller: Well, George has heard my feelings on it today, there
is nothing more as far as I am concerned to discuss.
Mayor Ferre: Yes, I know, but he is going to spend two or three hours going...
I'm not saying in anyway that we should in anyway acquiesce thing. I just
think that you ought to discuss it. I don't think that we in a legal record
which this is by speaking into this microphone, ought to put ourselves in
a position which is going to automatically create problems for a court. Do
you follow what I'm saying?
Ms. Rockefeller: Yes, I follow what you say, Mr. Mayor, but you know I'm
not just speaking just for myself here. There are seven thousand two sixty-
five members in our association. Every business person that's got so much
to lose and is trying to do business and trying to bring in new business
is hampered by this and this is why they wish that this Commission would
take affirmative action on this, get somebody that will handle these... that
can put all their time on it. When you hire an attorney to do a certain
job this is the job you do, this is what we are paying you for, we don't
care how many other responsibilities you've got, you do this job and get
it done.
Mayor Ferre: We understand.
Ms. Rockefeller: And this is why we asked for an outside attorney.
Mayor Ferre: And I understand. And I will on the record here commit to
you that at the next Commission Meeting, if Mr. Lacasa makes that motion
again, after you have had the opportunity and the courtesy both directions
to meet your group with the City Attorney's Office to discuss the different
matters that are pending. My position has been, continues and will always
be very clear on that. I'm ready to vote on it, I'm just saying that the
56
FEBRUARY 22, 1979
way to do is to.... I. have waited a month on this, I think another couple of
weeks might shed ,+rome light into the process. I think Mr. Knox sees the
consensus here. F think there is five votes solidly on that position. I
don't want to do ti; that harshly because I think that may create some other
legal problems as I understand it and I'm not a lawyer.
Ms. Rockefeller: 'ci,11, that's alright with me. Now, you remember what you
said the other day 'tir. Plummer about you had to go away for a few days and
I said "well, the 'Joel may be closed before you get back." This was what
we were concerned arout.
Mr. Plummer: Welf, wait a minute, now Grace say what the rest of the answer
was now.
Ms. Rockafellar: Yes, I... no, I'm not going to embarrass you.
Mr. Plummer: No, vo, no, whoa, whoa, Grace. Let's set the record straight.
Ms. Rockafellar: I just said, what I said.
Mr. Plummer: You L;aid that you felt that this might be closed. I told you
I had to leave tow-, but I also told you than Mr. knox would not be so damn
foolish that he would do anything like that until he had brought it before
that Commission and this is exactly what •ou have heard today. Is that my
correct statement?
Ms. Rockafellar: Yes, but I wanted you to make that, I didn't want to make,
I wanted you to make it.
Mr. Plummer: Well., I'm telling you...
Ms. Rockafellar: I wanted it to be your words.
Mr. Plummer: When you quote J. L., do it in it's entirety. It's like an
article that appeared in this morning's paper in which I was quoted as saying
"we should pursue a matter." The actual quote was ''I think it is worthy of
pursuing" and there is a big difference.
Mayor Ferre: Alright, the Chair now rules that there is a motion that we
are discussing without a second. And Rose, would you repeat your motion
simply?
Mrs. Gordon: The motion was to instruct the Law Department to vigorously
pursue this matter with the cooperation of Mrs. Rockafellar and the
organization that she represents and bring this back to us at our next
Commission Meeting, ok.
Rev. Gibson: I second the motion.
Mayor Ferre: Alright, there is a motion and a second. Now, Mrs. Gordon
would you accept an amendment to that, reiterating the previously established
City Commission policy... George help us word it, so that you don't get in
trouble legally.
Mrs. Gordon: That'''$ why I left it open, Maurice.
-Rev. Gibson: You better leave it at that.
Mrs. Gordon: I left it open, he understands what we need.
Mr. Knox: Yes, that your policy reflects and should be implemented in such
as manner that the community standards that exist within the City of Miami.
Mrs. Gordon: Alright, I accept that amendment...
Mayor Ferre: Alright, that's fine, ok.
Ms. Rockafellar: Ok, thank you.
Mayor Ferre: Alright, now...
Ms. Rockafellar: I can go back and tell them that the City Commission is
really going to work with us, that they haven't written us off.
157 FEBRUARY 22, 1979
Mayor Ferre: Absolutely. Now, we have a motion and a second, further discussion,
call the roll.
The following motion was introduced by Commissioner Gordon, who moved its
adoption:
MOTION NO. 79-91
A MOTION INSTRUCTING THE LAW DEPARTMENT TO VIGOROUSLY
ENFORCE THE REMOVAL OF THE PORNOGRAPHIC ESTABLISHMENTS
PRESENTLY LOCATED IN THE N.E. AREA OF THE CITY WHICH
ARE A DETRIMENT TO THE ECONOMIC BENEFIT OF THE COMMUNITY
WITH THE COOPERATION OF MRS. GRACE ROCKAFELLAR AND THE
MEMBERS OF THE N.E. TAXPAYERS' ASSOCIATION, AND FURTHER
REITERATING THE PREVIOUSLY ESTABLISHED POLICY OF THE
CITY COMMISSION REGARDING COMMUNITY STANDARDS.
Upon being seconded by Commissioner Gibson, the motion was passed and
adopted by the following vote:
AYES: Commissioner Rose Gordon
Commissioner Armando E. Lacasa
Commissioner (Rev.) Theodore R. Gibson
Vice -Mayor J. L. Plummer, Jr.
Mayor Maurice A. Ferre
NOES: None.
ON ROLL CALL:
Mr. Plummer: I'm going to vote with the motion, with a word of caution to
Mrs. Rockafellar that she get her information from either Mr. Knox or this
Commission, rather than other sources.
Ms. Rockafellar: Mr. Plummer, I called Mr. Knox's Office I can't tell you
how many times...
Mayor Ferre: Excuse me, Mrs. Rockafellar we are in the middle of the vote,
I will recognize you in a second. Would you finalize calling the roll?
(ROLL CALL CONTINUES)
Mayor Ferre: Now, I understand Mr. Knox and Mr. Grassie, that in the interim
nothing will be finalized as I understand by Mr. Knox. And Mr. Grassie, that
I'm sure from the administrative point of view you understand what the City
Commission's policy is as far as the Police Department and the other departments.
Is that correct?
Mr. Knox: Yes, sir. May I please represent on the public record that I will
get in touch with Mrs. Rockafellar first thing tomorrow morning and set-up
meetings to discuss this matter and to enlighten her and to advise her and her
organizations of what plans we have in terms of strengthening our procedures
in the immediate future.
Mayor Ferre: Alright. Mr. Grassie, anything you would want to add.
Mr. Grassie: I don't believe that we have any problems from the point of
view of the Police Department, Mr. Mayor or the policy that you have announced.
Mayor Ferre: Alright, thank you. Mrs. Rockafellar, again, our thanks, is
there anything else you want to add?
Ms. Rockafellar: Thank you. Well, there is one other little thing here you
were talking earlier about requesting the Planning Department to work with
our community. A few weeks ago this City Commission requested the Planning
Department to get an ordinance together whereby it protected the integrity
and character of Bayshore Drive, that was approved by the Planning Board.
I have asked Mr. Reid at the request of the merchants on the Boulevard to
come up with a special ordinance for Biscayne Boulevard whereby it would
absolutely forbid any kind of institution, congregate living, drug abuse,
58
FEBRUARY 22, 1979
• •
mental retardation or anything in order to get that Boulevard back to commercial
business, back to that kind of thing.
Mayor Ferre: Alright, now... I think Grace that, that's what Mrs. Gordon...
Mrs. Gordon: I would suggest that you consult with the department and feed this
information to them because the City now have been directed by us to procede
to do this...
Ms. Rockefeller: I wanted you to add this into your directions. I discussed
this already with Mr. Reid and I talked to Joe McManus last night and he said...
Mrs. Gordon: You are our Planning Board person and we look to you to come
back to us with the recommendations.
Ms. Rockefeller: Well, I thought that since the one on Bayshore Drive passed
so readily as a request from the Miami City Commission, we might get this
one through readily if it was requested by the City Commission...
Mrs. Gordon: Well, I would hope so, you get with them right away.
Ms. Rockefeller: ... with a special ordinance for Biscayne Boulevard.
Mrs. Gordon: That plus whatever instrument you can devise that will help
the situatio;..
Ms. kockafellar: Ok, fine and thank you.
Mayor Ferre: Thank you, Grace. Look, we need a break now, it's 1:22 and
so we will meet... we are going to have a quick... the sandwiches are over
here by the way and we will meet back here in thirty-five minutes, ok.
Mr. Ia:asa: In thirty-five minutes?
Mayor /erre: Yes, at 2 O'clock.
UA
FEBRUARY 22, 1979
7. PRESENTATIONS, PROCLAMATIONS AND SPECIAL ITEMS.
A. Presentation of a proclamation designating the week beginning February
18th as Engineers Week.
B. Presentation of Scrolls of Friendship to Ronen Ben-Dov and Delft Marmour,
visiting students from Israel.
C. Presentation of a Commendation to Mr. Benjamin Leon, Sr., Vice President
of CAMACOL and founder of Las Clinicas Asociacion Cubana, in recognition
of his designation by CAMACOL as Businessman of the Month.
D. Presentation of Retirement Plaques to Fire Department personnel:
Capt. William I. East - 25 years
Capt. Kenneth J. Huguet - 26 years
Fire Fighter Warren A. Sharpe - 28 years
E. Presentation of proclamation designating February 22nd as Mana Zucca Dx.
F. Presentation of a proclamation designating the month of February as
Multiple Sclerosis Education Month and a proclamation designating February
23rd as Multiple Sclerosis Read -A -Thou Dom►.
G. Presentation of a proclamation designating the month of February as The
Parade of American Music Month.
H. Presentation of a Commendation to the Wynwood Roberto Clemente Baseball
Tcaz. in recognition of its accomplishment in winning the Asociacion
Recreative Summit Hills-Altamira Baseball Series in Puerto Rico.
I. Presentation of a proclamation designating February 24th as Municipio de
Jiguani Day.
J. Presentation of a Commendation to the Falcons Athletic Club for their
efforts on behalf of the sporting community of Greater Miami.
K. Presentation to Mayor Maurice Ferre and the Miami City Commission of a
framed copy of an ad which recently appeared in The Miami Herald on why
Greater Miami is one of the best investments in America made by Mr.
Richard B. Bermont, Vice President of Drexel, Burnham, Lambert, Inc.
L. Distribution of cookies to the City Commission by the Girl Scouts of
Tropical Florida.
Rev. Gibson: Mr. Mayor and members of the Commission, I don't know who this
ought to be directed to but I would hope we the Commission, Mr. Grassie, this
one like in the other I know you got some flack about it and I'm not at all
apologetic for the flack because I think it was worth it. I made mention that
the Orange Bowl people should have been recognized and you sponsored an affair
for them and I want to tell you one of the best P.R. jobs we've done was just
that, to thank those people. Those people were saying how many years they'd
ierved and nobody has ever said thanks. The other thing, and the real thing
I want to mention is somehow we ought to thank the National Football League
or whoever put on that affair during the time of the Superbowl. We take all
the people in this community for granted and all we have got to do is take
two minutes to say "Thank you". Now the program they put on was just fantas-
tic and I would hope, Mr. Mayor, that we the Commission or since you're going
to ask for those people to come back here you ought to pass a resolution or
send some sort of a proclamation or something out there saying that it was one
hell of a good thing. We netted about $60,000,000.
Mayor Ferre: All right, Father Gibson....
Mr. Plummer: Mr. Mayor, before you do such I head up a committee and if my
secretary will bring me that letter very quickly, Father, we have that in the
works and I don't think that it should come from both sources. If what your
60
FEB 2 2 1979
motion is indicating, that they need to be thanked let me show you this letter
which was drafted yesterday for the Superbowl Committee addressing exactly the
thing that you're bringing out.
Mayor Ferre: All right, well we'll do it that way.
Rev. Gibson:
All right, beautiful.
8. DISCUSSION OF THE CONCEPT OF A "WATERFRONT TRUST."
Mayor Ferre: We're now on Item "G" of this morning and it is a discussion of
the Waterfront Trust. I think the way we'll do this is Mr. Iaconis and Mr.
Dixon, you have been with your diligence and persistency and effectiveness been
coming back and forth and back again and meeting with all the members of the
Commission and the administration in trying to find a way in which we can come
to some kind of an agreement. Now you and I met two days ago and then we met
again yesterday and we've been working this morning, I know we're not, we're
getting close to a final draft at least as far as I'm concerned and I think
you've kept the rest of the Commission apprised and I think it's now time for
an open discussion on this and I'll do it any way that the members of the Com-
mission want. I would prefer to do it this way - recognizing Mr. Iaconis and
Mr. Dixon.
Mrs. Gorden: And it would be appropriate to have Mr. Fosmoen begin by telling
us about his memorandum regarding his recommendations and then....
Mayor Ferre: You're talking about the Trust now, because that's what's before
us at this time.
Mrs. Gordon: Yes, his report that I have here on "G", I have a form here with
some recommendations from him.
Mayor Ferre: Mr. Fosmoen, the Chair recognizes you. We're talking strictly
now if you would please limit your discussion to the items dealing with the
idea of forming a Trust. Since we will be discussing....
Mrs. Gordon: It says marina operations and expansion, it's all related isn't
it?
Mayor Ferre: No, ma'am,
Mrs. Gordon: It's under "G", I didn't number it, Mr. Mayor, it's in my packet.
Mayor Ferre: You may not have numbered it, Mrs. Gordon, but the fact is that
the last time we met it was very clearly discussed that in the morning we would
only discuss the Trust aspects and that we would leave the specifics for the
evening meeting.
Mrs. Gordon: This is relative to that.
Mayor Ferre: I don't think it iP relative at this point, I think we're going
to discuss the Trust and only the Trust.
Mrs. Gordon: It talks about the Trust in this recommendation.
Mayor Ferre: If you will address yourself, Mr. Fosmoen, to that portion and
then we'll recognize Mr. Iaconis and Mr. Dixon.
Mr. Plummer: Mr. Mayor, I would respectfully request before any discussion be
entered into that somebody from the City Attorney's Office be here. Proceed.
whatever you're going to proceed with.
Mr. Fosmoen: Mr. Mayor and members of the Commission, there is a small por-
tion of the memorandum that was provided you that deals with the Trust and
they're basically two comments. The first is that there is not the legal basis
within the state to establish a trust as I understand the proposal that's being
put forth. If we use revenue bonds to reconstruct Dinner Key this City Commis-
sion would still have to retain control over operating expenses and setting the
rates at Dinner Key in order to be sure that the bonds could be paid for. The
G1
FEB 22 1979
second point is that the Trust at this point is a conceptual discussion and
we still can't be certain that management through a trust would be any more
effective than the current management structure or than the management struc-
ture or than the management structure that's proposed under a management agree-
ment. Those are the only comments that are contained in that memorandum that
relates specifically to the Trust. What we had attempted to do in that memo-
randum was to outline a set of alternatives that have been discussed over the
last two years.
Mrs. Gordon: When are you going to take the balance of it up, later?
Mr. Foamoen: I would expect with the Commission's indulgence to do that this
evening.
Mrs. Gordon: Okay.
Mr. Plummer: Once again, Mr. Mayor, I'd just like to reiterate that Mrs. Gor-
don and I do have a commitment this evening at 8:00 O'Clock. I realize that
that is five hours and ten minutes from now but we do have a commitement this
evening at 8:00. We're also wishful dreamers.
Mayor Ferre:
All right, Mr
got all these
point, do you
All right, is there anything else you want to add, Mr. Grassie?
. Dixon, Mr. Iaconis. Does anybody have a draft? Because I've
papers and I don't really know what we're dealing with at this
h ve a copy, Mr. Dixon, or does staff have a copy?
Mr. Dixon: I'm not sure I have the most recent copy, sir.
Mayor Ferre: Well why don't you pass out whatever it is that you have. How
many copies do you have?
Mr. Dixon: I have one that says original and one that says revised.
Mayor Ferre: All right, I'll tell you what, you keep that one, Tom
Mr. Iaconis: I received one as of about 2 O'Clock this afternoon, your honor.
Mayor Ferre: I'll tell you what the difference is with this one, the same one
you and I talked about. This calls it the Miami Waterfront Board, it didn't
have anything else in it and it also deletes in Section (6) the question of
oversight. And that's really one of the harder things that you want to talk
about and I think if you get into that you get into discussions of what an
overview is and whether or not that has limitations or whether or not that is
taking over the policy setting role or the administrative role. So I think
you're best off without getting into that kind of a discussion but, you know,
do what you want.
Mr. Tbm Dixon: Mr. Mayor, Commissioners, the reason I'm here as I have appear-
ed before you over the last year was my original concern with the conditions
at Dinner Key and the condition and attitude of the City towards its marine
facilities. Also, of course, I was concerned with the attitude of leasing to
private companies private property. As a result, I originally proposed as a
member of the Miami Waterfront Committee the creation of a Miami Waterfront
Authority. We met with City administration and based on their recommendations
we revised this to encompass the idea of the creation of a Miami Waterfront
Trust. This idea obviously during the summer was presented with some opposi-
tion. The goals of the trust were basically to develop a Master Plan for
Miami's waterfront, to expand Miami's waterfront facilities so that Miami could,
in fact, become what it should become, a boating capital of the United States.
We have most recently worked with you, Mayor, and the other Commissioners as
we said we would to try to work out an alternative solution that would be accept-
able to everyone. We would now like to work with the Commission and the admin-
istration and hopefully create the Miami Waterfront Board to encompass the
goals that both of us have. Ike has some comments about what he would like to
see the goals and efforts and purpose of this board and then we would like to
discuss the proposed resolution which you drafted.
Mayor Ferre: All right, sir.
Mr. Ike Iaconis: Mayor Ferre and members of the Commission, at the Commission
Meeting on January 19th (18th) and the Commission accepted our request to poll
each Commissioner concerning the concept and we've come away from the experience
with increased awe, a heightened respect, the extraordinary perception in depth
62 FEB 197�
of knowledge and expuience portrayed by the members of the Commission and we
were enlightened and I would like to summarize what we received. From Rever-
end Gibson we received the understanding of religious fervor mixed with the
desire to assure that the public interest is served without raising cain or
engaging in a holy war. From Mrs. Gordon we received critical enlightenment
mixed with a sparkle of unique understanding and a glimmer of hope together
with a measure of stick-to-itiveness while recognizing the probable odds of
reality. From Mr. Lacasa we were provided the desire to continue to struggle
in the face of adversity and to become victorious while in the midst of a seamy
controversy with the establishment since we were clearly in a minority position.
From Mr. Plummer
Mr. Plummer: You'd better be careful.
Mr. Iaconis: I'm trying to be careful, I really am.
Mr. Plummer: You know where you met me last night?
Mr. Iaconis: Yes, sir.
Mr. Plummer: Don't be a customer.
Mr. Iaconis: Sooner or later, sir, you'll have me one way or the other.
Mr. Plummer: It might be sooner than later.
Mr. Iaconis: From Mr. Plummer we accepted his Dutch uncle wisdom and maturity
and the understanding to be flexible, keeping one eye on maintaining a positive
posture while keeping the other eye on where the marbles are.
Mr. Plumner: Did you hear that, Mr. Mayor?
Mr. :Laconia.: From Mayor Ferre we were counseled on the ability to maintain
a balanced position and become shiny examples of public service by private
citizens to nurture a charismatic and outwardly cool attitude while realizing
that tip editorial remarks of our neighbors must not deter our efforts to be
at least 95% objective nor disuade us to forge ahead to our ultimate goal not
necessarily as the governors of our fate but as ambassadors of good will
uniting the waterfront with unified guidelines and converting our desires for
current progress in future improvement. With these factors enlightening us
we respectfully present our proposal for the creation of the Miami Waterfront
Board. The concept that we desire to employ would be that the public and the
City of Miami will retain authority, control and management of the citizens'
waterfront property and facilities. The City would be guided in its efforts
to improve current marina activities and to develop its marine resources
through the creation of a Miami Waterfront Board. This board would provide
the necessary oversight to assure that the City maintains its pledge to improve
current facilities and develop its resources through the implementation of a
practical waterfront master guide and to further assure that the public prop-
erty will be kept for the public interest.
Mayor Ferre: All right, thank you very much.
Mr. Iaconis: I'm not finished. I guess that's a clue that I should be finish-
ed, your honor.
Mayor Ferre: No, take your time. You just paused too long, you see around
here people hardly breathe between sentences.
Mr. Iaconis: Our statement of purpose would be as follows: The Board would
provide counsel to the City Commission in all matters pertaining to the City's
waterfront property and facilities. The Board shall provide recommendations
and guidelines to the City Commission to suggest the direction current opera-
tions and future development should take to the extent permitted and agreed
upon by the City Commission.The City administration shall implement these rec-
ommendations or show cause why implementation would not be feasible. The
board would be responsible to develop a practical and economical master guide
for waterfront development and to provide guidance concerning its implementa-
tion. The board would review current leases on City waterfront property and
consider courses of action to suggest for future use of these properties with-
in the purview of the master guide. The Board would endeavor to maintain the
public interest by overseeing the operations of current waterfront facilities
and would provide guidelines and policies to enhance these operations. These
63
FE: 22 WE;
recommended actions would not be unreasonably withheld from being implemented
by the City administration. In the event of technical or administrative dif-
ferences the matter would be presented at the next available meeting of the
City Commission in order to assure the expeditious handling of suggestions for
improvements in order to make Miami the boating capital that it should be.
The composition of the board would be that it would consist of nine members
appointed by the City Commission, and we shall discuss in more detail after
my presentation exactly how they would be appointed. The Board would initiate
and develop appropriate policies for operation and maintenance of the water-
front property and facilities and monitor implementation on behalf of the City
Commission. Any event of major concern related to implementation, the City
administration shall report to the Commission why the recommended policies are
not being enforced. Let me summarize the major functions: (1) to provide
counsel to the City Commission in all matters pertaining to the City's water-
front property and facilities; (2) to provide the oversight and necessary input
to the Commission to assure that current waterfront facilities are improved
and resources are developed for the public benefit; (3) to assist in the gener-
ation and implementation of a practical cost-effective master guide to water-
front development; (4) to assure that public property will be kept for the
public interest in the public trust and not for private gain on a self support-
ing basis and without subsidy the City to sustain operation; (5) to suggest
the appropriate policies and instructions for implementation through the City
administration for efficient management of existing and future facilities;
(6) to counsel on current and proposed leases and management contracts and pro-
vide a re!ewe(3 respectability in the handling of future contractual matters
relating t' the waterfront; (7) to provide a fair and balanced review of costs
and respective fees for services to provide a reasonable and appropriate re-
turn on investment to the City; (8) to promote a renewed feeling and increased
emphasis on the desire to include private citizens in the process of government
for the common good of all the people in the area and, of course, (9) to make
Miami the boating capital it deserves to be. We ask that you accept our pro-
posal and we request that the City administration be instructed to generate
forthwit:- the necessary documents to create the Miami Waterfront Board. We
further request that this board be put into effect to review the current leas-
ing or management contracts for Dinner Key and Miamarina. Towards these ends
we pledre c.:- best efforts to cooperate fully with the City determining any
foolish personal concerns that may have cropped up time and again to create a
harmonious tone of conduct on a professional basis and to promise complete sup-
pnrt of our mutual desire to initiate swift progress on the waterfront. You
can count on us and can we literally count on you? Thank you very much.
Mrs. Gordon: What were you reading from, Ike?
Mr. Iaconis: Pardon?
Mrs. Gordon: Did you prepare for us a copy of what you were reading with re-
gard to all of those conditions? You know you don't want a unilateral contract
do you?
Mr. Iaconis: What I have are my specific notes which are essentially manu-
script form that could perhaps be typed up very very quickly.
Mrs. Gordon: I would suggest.
Mr. Iaconis: Yes, ma'am. Now that concludes our remarks, your honor.
Mayor Ferre: Thank you very much. Are there any comments from any members
of the Commission?
Mr. Plummer: Well, first of all you know I would be reluctant to vote on some-
thing I don't have before me, as a matter of fact the law states that we can't.
Those items which you're incorporating there, of course, are not incorporated
here. This is your interpretation of what counseling means. Now, Mr. Mayor,
where are we?
Mayor Ferre: Well all right, here's where we are, and I would hope that we
could keep this rather simple and rather swift. Mr. Iaconis has made a state-
ment into the record of his viewpoint, he is a citizen who is entitled to do
that. Now I think it is quite obvious that certainly by law and by tradition
that the City Attorney when he interprets what a resolution which is a policy
of this Commission says is guided first of all by what the resolution says in
the English language. Now, beyond that there comes a question of interpreta-
tion of intent which sometimes happens in the legislative process. I think
64
FEB 2 2 1979
•
your statement, Mr. Plummer, is very appropriate and I subscribe to it that
I do not think that the acceptance of this resolution in any way should mean
anything other than what the resolution says and that certainly any silence on
the part of any members of the Commission as to that point does not signify
either concurrence or rejection and we'll just leave it go at that and the
resolution is what it will say when we pass it if we pass it - no more, no less.
I think what we ought to really do is really read, since this is a very impor-
tant thing, the resolution page by page, there's only three pages and you
change it - members of the Commission wherever you think it should be changed
and we'll vote on it if it is controversial. So I'll start with that if it is
all right with you.
Mr. Iaconis: Yes, sir, I would like to answer Mr. Pluam er's comments. We had
prepared an initial proposal concerning a Miami Waterfront Trust as we have
discussed with all the members of the Commission. In the interim, there have
been several different discussions and essentially in an llth hour suggestion,
recommendation we have brought to your attention the fact that we would like
to discuss the possibility of a Miami Waterfront Board in place of a Miami
Waterfront Trust.
Mayor Ferre: All right, let's get on it, with the reading then. The title is
as follows: "A resolution creating and establishing a Miami Waterfront Board,
consisting of nine individuals, for the purpose of reviewing and evaluating
waterfront issues; describing the method of appointing members to the board,
the terms of office, duties and functions of the board, provisions for removal
of members, and selection of a chairperson." Now, any discussion with that?
Mr. Pluzn r: Well Mr. Mayor, I'm sorry, sir.
Mayor Ferre: Well listen, you can come back after and....
Mr. Plummer: Yes, but excuse me. I cannot address any portion of this with-
out addressing the entire picture.
Mayor Ferre: I agree.
Mr. Plucrr,e:: Now I've got to have those nine points that Mr. Iaconis just made
orI....
Mayor Ferre: They're in the text.
Mr. Plummer:
Mayor Ferre:
hear me; when
Mr. Plummer:
No, sir, they are not.
Oh no, J. L., I guess either I didn't say it right or you didn't
we pass a resolution the resolution is what the resolution says.
Yes, sir.
Mayor Ferre: Now, Mr. Iaconis can have nine, twenty or a hundred points and
somebody else can have a hundred points, if they're not part of the resolution
that has nothing to do with what we're doing. It may be his opinion, I may con-
cur and I may disagree and if we get into that I'm going to tell you we're going
to be here for three hours.
Mr. Plummer: Well Mr. Mayor, I guess let me tell you what's bothering me more
than anything.
Mayor Ferre: You've got to leave at 8:00.
Mr. Plummer: Yes, that's also bothering me. Mr. Mayor, I am presented with a
resolution that when I turn to the City Attorney he informs me he has never
seen it.
Mayor Ferre: That's why we're reading it carefully now and I'm sure that this
is a matter which if any of us have any disagreements on we can discuss as we
go along. all right, what do you want to do?
Mr. Plummer: You know, Mr. Mayor, I have indicated to Mr. Iaconis and to Mr.
Dixon and I indicate for the record that I feel there is a need for a Water-
front Board but why are deviating from the norm?
Mrs. Gordon: I just want to know who prepared it.
Mayor Ferre: This was prepared on Tuesday through half an hour ago....
65
FEB 221E.9
6
Mrs. Gordon: By who?
Mayor Ferre: ...by myself in discussions with Mr. Dixon and discussions with
Mr. Iaconis back and forth and it was technically done by Bob Homan since he
was the person available to put it in writing.
Mrs. Gordon: Well why not Mr. Knox?
Mayor Ferre: That's a good question.
Mr. Plummer: Well Mr. Mayor, look, I would feel more comfortable, I have indi-
cated for the record my feelings of the Waterfront Board, I have no problems
with it but I think that the norm that we have always followed is that all of
this be presented to the City Attorney, the City Attorney sits down, finds out
if anything therein contained that is possibly in violation or indeference to
the charter.
Mayor Ferre: I think you're absolutely right.
Mr. Plummer: Then it is presented to us, we then make deletions, we make cor-
rections, we make additions....
Mayor Ferre: Mr. Plummer, you're absolutely correct, now is there anything
you want to add to it?
Mr. Plummer: No, sir, I would like to take this document, I'd like to take Mr.
Iaconis' thoughts and give it to the City Attorney and bring it back before
this Commission as a regularly scheduled item on the agenda - my opinion, and
I'm only one.
Mr. Dixon: Mr. Mayor, could I make a suggestion? Just in the sake of saving
time, would it be possible, Commissioner Plummer, to look at this and see if
there is anything that you truly object to, for example the nine members or
something like that. Would that be unfair?
Mr. Plummer: Mr. Dixon, I do have some problems reading over this very quick-
ly, I think you're making it for yourselves impossible when you have five organ-
izations proffering one name - five names, all right - you know from these dif-
ferent organizations. I think there is a simpler method than what is proposed
here. Now, let me tell you what I'm in favor of so no one gets any misunder-
standing. I'm ready to offer a motion of intent that e Miami Waterfront Board
be created period, then the same motion directing the City Attorney to prepare
the proper documents for this City Commission's consideration.
Mrs. Gordon: I'll second your motion because I don't believe that this thing
has any teeth in it at all.
Mr. Plummer: Well, what I'm saying is that I think we ought to send it to the
City Attorney and follow the normal procedures, you know let me ask you a ques-
tion just to try to give you an idea because I've been looking around. With
the exception of the two companies that are here for consideration later on
is there anyone else here in relation to this Waterfront Advisory Board or
Waterfront Board? Is there anyone else here? Now....
Mr. Dixon: That's the time to do something.
Mr. Plummer: Well, now I disagree with you, I'm sorry on that. But you know
this is the thing that should be scheduled for an agenda item to be discussed
by the public, to be discussed by this Commission in its proper form. Now....
Mayor Ferre: Mr. Plummer, I might point out to you, sir, that at the last
Commission Meeting, sir, there were some people in this room that represented
the general public and who were interested in a Waterfront Trust. At that time
the general public and those interested parties were informed, sir, that we
would have a meeting this morning as a scheduled item, this would be discussed.
Mr. Plummer: That's correct. Excuse me, Mr. Mayor, please. The discussion
was....
Mayor Ferre: This thing.... Wait a minute, the implication that we're doing
this in secret and that all of a sudden this is being done out of context, I
tell you you have my no vote as of right now for any board or anything if
that's the way this thing is going - no, my vote is no on this or any other
6G
FEB 2 2 1979
subject to come up, now anybody can vote any way they want.
Mr. Lacasa: Mr. Mayor, may I be recognized?
Mrs. Gordon: Well, wasn't there a motion by Mr. Plummer of intent? Did you
make it or didn't you?
Mr. Plumper: I said I was willing to offer, Rose.
Mr. Lacasa: He hasn't made any motion yet, I'd like to be recognized. This
question of the Waterfront Trust has been discussed for quite a while now and
Mr. Iaconis was with us, Mr. Dixon here has been discussing this issue individ-
ually with some of the members or I guess with all of the members of the Com-
mission as well as has been done by all other interested parties. This is a
highly controversial issue that has deserved a lot of attention by the public,
by the media, and that is really in the best interest of the City of Miami to
settle as soon as possible if with doing this we are really doing something
of benefit for the City and on which all of the interested parties can agree.
The question of the Waterfront Trust, and I made myself very clear to both Mr.
Iaconis and Mr. Dixon when they came to me, I think that the public trust of
the City of Miami is this City Commission and that there is no way that we
are going to relinquish at least with my vote this trust. But, there is also
another consideration and that is that I feel that it is in the best interest
of everybody that the citizens have an input, especially those who are most
interested in the questions relating to the waterfront properties of the City
of Miami. Therefore, when the possibility of a board was discussed between
Mr. Iaconis and Mr. Dixon and myself I saw it as a possibility to have both
things. my feeling at least as a City Commissioner concerning the fact that we
are the public trust and that wasn't going to be affected plus a guarantee
to those interested citizens that they would have a voice and they would have
a definite input into this question. Now, what we have before us is a solution
to this problem which has been dragging on, has been debated for quite a long
time. Regardless of the question of whether this resolution from the legal
standpoint of view has to be modified etcetera, and I do agree with Mr. Plummer
that this should be referred to the legal department and be checked upon, I
would suggest that we consider a motion for the approval of the concept of a
Waterfront Rr'ard right now and then we refer the question to the legal depart-
ment of the City for further checking.
Mrs. Gordon: Isn't that what Mr. Plummer said ten minutes ago? I think he
did.
Mr. Iaconis: Yes.
Mayor Ferre: Well I'll tell you you have my "No" vote on that.
Mrs. Gordon: That's exactly what he said.
Mayor Ferre: I'll accept any motions that you want but I want to explain to
you that this is a document that has come out of three days of discussion.
I'm perfectly willing to stay here as long as we have to to finalize it. If
you want to change it you tell me how you want to change it but I think, now
you know that this is a three page thing, that the City Attorney can look at
it and tell you if it is all right in legal form and we get on with the prob-
lem. For us to start playing games on this thing and start delaying it and
creating all kinds of... It's going to create nothing but a lot of problems.
Mrs. Gordon: Mr. Mayor, both of the gentlemen have spoken - Mr. Plumper and
Mr. Lacasa - indicating desire to create a Waterfront Board. Okay, there's
no disagreement on that, you don't have a disagreement on that. The inclusion
or the deletion of any possibly illegal words or amendments to the words in
this document are not going to change the fact that we're all in accord on
the creation of the Waterfront Board. So I would say that I'm perfectly will-
ing to second either one of your motions, gentlemen, and get this thing at
least established that we're willing to create a waterfront board.
Mr. Lacasa: What... J. L., George, would would it take in terms of time now
to review this resolution by you and come back on the resolution in a while,
while you check on it and clear any questions that any members of the Commis-
sion might have. I feel quite frankly that if we can settle this matter once
and for all today it will be in the best interest of everybody involved here.
You can see that Mr. Iaconis is agreeing with this statement, I guess that
everybody here so we have a nice opportunity, let's get rid of this situation
once for all.
67 FEB 2 2 1979
•
Mrs. Gordon: Fine. So nobody misunderstands our intentions, you move it and
I'll second it that we intend to proceed to create such a board, Okay?
Mr. Lacasas I didn't say intend, I said to create the board....
Mrs. Gordon: We or our record would create, you use the words you want to use.
Mr. Lacasa: ... to create the board right now and what I would suggest is that
we ....
Mrs. Gordon: Just make the motion the way you want the motion.
Mr. Lacasa: ... Before voting on the motion, what I would suggest, Rosek is
that we refer this to Mr. Knox and if we have to wait one hours or two hours
and bring this subject back into discussion in a while after he cleans up this
we finalise the whole thing today.
Mrs. Gordon: We'll do that later, make the intent, what you want to do later,
make the intent what you want to do now. Okay? Do you want to do it now?
Let's make it now, we intend to do this, we are going to create this.
Mr. Lacasa: Let me check something. aeorge, how long will it take for you to
study this and come back with a recommendation today on this?
Mr. Knox: The resolution essentially speaks for itself, now the question is
the resolution again speaks for itself. Now the rest is up to the City Com-
mission. The resolution as it is drafted is correct in form and that's the
scrutiny that the City Attorney's Office traditionally gives to these kinds
of documents.
Mr. Lacasa: Okay, then I'd like to make a motion, Mr. Mayor. I'd like to
make a motion and I move that this resolution as has been read by the Mayor
be approved by the City Commission.
Mrs. Gordon: I'll second it
Mayor Ferre: All right, there is a motion and a second. Under discussion,
because I don't want any questions about what it is that we're passing, Ike,
I don't want you coming back upset or you, Tom, you guys have spent months if
not years on this, I want to make sure we understand. I want you please to
take the three or four or five minutes it takes to look over page 1, 2 and 3
and make sure that you are in agreement. Now, with regards to Section 2(a),
the members shall be appointed by a list of five nominees submitted by the
Miami Marine Council and the Greater Miami Marine Association. Is that cor-
rect?
Mr. Dixon: That's fine.
Mr. Dixon: Yes, sir.
Mayor Ferre: All right, one member shall be appointed from a list of 5 nom-
inees submitted by a group of 5 yacht clubs, and they're outlined here. Is
that correct? Wasn't there an addition, wasn't there six?
Mr. Dixon: Yes, the request was an of a Commodore Rowing and Sailing Club
Yacht Club.
Mayor Ferre: Now what is the Commodore Rowing and Sailing Club, because I've
never of it?
Mr. Dixon: It is apparently a legitimate yacht
Mayor Ferre: Well, but you know, if we want to
tell you about....
Mr. Dixon: It was a suggestion, Mayor, I'm not
Mayor Ferre: ...three other rowing clubs that
Miami, the Big Five Rowing and Yacht Club, the
you know we've got all kinds of Yacht Clubs.
Mr. Dixon: It was just a suggestion, Mayor.
club within the City of Miami.
start doing that then I can
forcing it.
function within the
Little Havana Yacht
City of
Club and
Mr. Plummer: Well, let me ask this question if I may, and we're now under dis-
cussion. One of the areas, you know I belong to the Miami Outboard Club, and
many years ago, and I hope they've changed their ways but in case they haven't,
te
FEE 22 1?'3
• •
is it an indication that they must jointly come up with five names or does one
offer three and the other offer two?
Mayor Ferre: No.
Mr. Plummer: Well, I'm asking these questions now to stop this problem later.
Mayor Ferre: J. L., I'm going to answer it by reading it. "One member shall
be appointed from a list of five nomii:cas submitted by a group of five yacht
clubs". I would assume that that means that each yacht club submits one
name.
Mr. Plummer: Well, that's what I would assume hut assumptions don't it when
you come down to a point of discussion.
Mayor Ferre: George, is that nebulous?
Mr. Plummer: It's not there. Well, this is the point I was trying to bring
out. If you say there that each club shall proffer one name and there are
five clubs that's pretty obvious.
Mayor Ferre: Okay. All right, that stands amended.
Mr. Plummer: And I think it should apply, shouldn't it, you tell me to each
one of these that are nominating?
Mayor Ferre: Fine. A11 right, C.
Mr. Plummer: For example, with the Miami Marine Council and the Marine Assoc-
iation if they can't agree who gets to nominate two and who gets to nominate
three?
Mayor Ferre: Oh boy, I'll tell you.
Mr. Grassie: The intent, Commissioner, in drafting this was that all of the
clubs would have to agree on a list of five.
Mr. Plummer: Okay.
Mr. Grassie: Now the purpose for that is so that the City Commission is not
placed in the position of selecting this club's nominee instead of that club's.
If all five clubs nominate a list of five, and they have to agree on the list
of five, then you are not placed in that position. That was the intent.
Rev. Gibson: Well, why can't we word if this is what we want to say?
Mr. Grassie: I think the way it is worded does this.
Mayor Ferre: No, what Grassie is saying is different than what Plummer is
saying and I think Plummer convinced me but now that I heard Grassie he con-
vinced me that Plummer is wrong.
Mr. Plummer: Who are the five civic groups?
Mayor Ferre: Well, that was something that Ike, you
Mr. Plummer: Who are the five civic groups, five named civic groups?
Mayor Ferre: Ike, you and Tom had put that in, I don't know what you mean by
that.
Mr. Dixon: Well no, originally it was suggested that it represent environ-
mental groups, marine groups and civic groups.
Mr. Plummer: Well you've got that here in C which is basically covering those
areas.
Mr. Dison: No, we have the marine groups, the question was the civic groups,
D on page 2. The suggestion was the Greater Miami Chamber of Commerce, the
Coconut Grove, the Chambers of Commerce, I don't think it was clear exactly
which ones specifically, I don't even know how many there are.
Mayor Ferre: Well that's the problem. You've got certainly the Community
Chamber of Commerce, the Miami -Dade Community, the Greater Miami Chamber of
Commerce, the Little Havana Chamber of Commerce and I guess the Coconut Grove
Chamber of Commerce, I don't know who else you have.
69
FEB 221979
IP
Mr. Dixon: That's Ake.
Mr. Plummer: Is that what's agreed upon? If that's the case, I've got no
problem.
Rev. Gibson: Mr. Mayor, so that this thing doesn't come back to haunt us we
had better specify what clubs you're talking about. You know?
Mayor Ferre: What item are you on?
Rev. Gibson: Let's take the one you're talking about, the civic clubs. You
specify them now, it's easy.
Mr. Dixon: The Greater Miami Chamber of Commerce - I'm just reading them so
we all hear it the same.
Rev. Gibson: You read them so we will know these are the five different clubs
we're talking about.
Mr. Dixon: The Coconut Grove Chamber, the Little Havana Chamber....
Mr. Lacasa: The Latin Chamber.
Mayor Ferre: It's called the Latin Chamber.
Mr. Dixon: The Latin Chamber and you said a Community?
Mayor Ferre: Yes, there is a black chamber which is called the Greater Miami -
Dade Chamber.
Mrs. Gordon: Maurice, may I suggest that you inlude the Northeast Property
Owners, there is a lot of waterfront in that area?
Mayor Fm:rre: The Northeast Property Association, now that's five.
M_. Dixcn: Property Owner's Association?
Mrs. Gordon: Yes, that's what it's called.
Mayor Ferre: Now that's five.
Mr. Dixon: Fine.
Rev. Gibson: Now those five must agree on one.
Mr. Dixon? No, they will submit a list of five.
Rev. Gibson: Five, and out of that list you pick one.
Mr. Dixon: That's correct.
Rev. Gibson: All right, you know you could write that in and don't have to,
because I could see us now not agreeing later on.
Mayor Ferre: All right, can we continue? One member shall be appointed from
a list of five nominees selected by the non -transient tenants of the City's
marinas, each non -transient slip has one vote in this selection process. Is
that Okay?
Mr. Dixon: That's fine.
Mayor Ferre: Any problems with E? F? Four members shall be appointed by a
majority vote of the City Commission with nominations to these four positions
being made by City Commissioners and there must be at least eight nominations
for these four positions before the four appointments can be made; further,
that all nominees to these four positions must be residents of the City of Miami.
Now, is there any problem with F?
Mr. Iaconis: Let me comment on that, please, if I may, your Honor.. On F you
have indicated that you would like five of the nine positions to be City of
Miami residents. Would it be appropriate to simply indicate that since you have
already stated that indeed that member will be a City of Miami resident?
70
FEB 2 2 1979
Mayor Verret All right.
Mr. Iaconis: You have also indicated, there is
Mr. Dixon: Well no, that F would have four.
Mr. Iaconis: Yes, F has four.
Mr. Dixon: And that's five.
one other area.
Mr. Iaconis: Is it possible to indicate that five of the nine in some mix
without having us be limited to City of Miami residents exclusively because
what may happen is we may end up with nine residents in the process.
Mayor Ferre: No. ....
Mr. Plummer: Nothing wrong with that.
Mayor Ferre: No, wait a minute, let me address
Mrs. Gordon: You know I find that interesting
I think the other Yacht Clubs, a great deal of
of Miami residents.
that. J. L. ....
because the Outboard Club and
their membership are not City
Mayor Ferre: 1nat's the point precisely and if you'll look at the way this is
drafted. nnA we've spent a lot of time trying to figure this out, was that what
this docs is that the four members that are appointed by the City of Miami Com-
mission must be residents of the City of Miami. Now, there are five other mem-
bers. The only one that has a specification that he be a resident of the City
of Miami is the one that gets appointed to represent the public at large.
Mr. Dixon: No, sir - D -, it says one member shall be appointed from a list of
five nc.:..inees, residents of of Miami from civic groups so you have four in F
and or, f-cT. n is your total of five.
Mayc.r :c:r. S beg your pardon.
M=. Dixon: To protect the interest of the City.
Mayor ?erre: Yes, well that's what I'm saying, D has to be a citizen.
Mr. Dixon: That's correct.
Mayor Ferre: And F have to be citizens.
M. Dixon: And that's five.
Mayor Ferre: That's five and the other four, I recognize that the members of
the yacht clubs can be from Coral Gables and that gives you the balance.
Mr. Dixon: That's the reason we were having difficulty with G because you indi-
cated you wanted to make sure there were a minimum five.
Mayor Ferre: Yes, but let tell you what G says. G says preference, it doesn't
say it has to be. We've got the say, Tom, in any document where the City of
Miami is involved, this is the first time that I've ever seen a City whether it
was Coral gables or utherwise permit on boards other than citizens who live in
the City. Now I think we've got to say at least that preference should be given
to Miamians.
Mr. Dixon: Yes, I think there is a point to that should be added, maybe it is
not necessary, but that it be representative of minority groups within the com-
munity, this selection process. I believe this was discussed with Mr. Lacasa.
Mayor Ferre: That's true of everything, I'd be happy to include it in here.
Mr. Iaconis: Mr. Mayor, I'd like to go back to that position in F where perhaps
we could add that if the other groups A through E do not provide the requisite
number of at least five that you would then have one or more of the four be
citizens without making sure that the four members must be citizens in order to
allow a mix of people who use your waterfront but are not necessarily residents
of the City.
Mayor Ferre: That confuses it.
FEB ? ? 1979
IP
Rev. Gibson: Mr. tor, I want the guys I'm going to be appointing to be
living in the City of Miami. Now the others, that can be a luxury. I can
hide under the escape clause the members of the club but I in full knowledge,
I am going to tell everybody this: I ain't going to appoint nobody who doesn't
live in the City of Miami where our taxes come from by and large and I ought
to be protective. Ahmen.
Mr. Dixon: You want to leave G as it is.
Rev. Gibson: Oh yes.
Mayor Ferre: All right, now we're on Section
positions described in A through E above will
the effective date of this resolution and for
Mr. Dixon: I would only hope that there was a
the citizens....
Mayor Ferre: Well this is your wording, Tom.
Mr. Iaconis: No, sir, it's not.
Mr. Dixon: No, we had changed it.
Mr. Iaconis: It's Mr. Homan's wording, not our's, sir.
Mayor Ferre: Well tell me how you want to word it because I don't have any
problems with this.
3, the terms of office for the
be initially two years from
terms of three years thereafter.
better way to stagger them so
Mr. Iaconis: Ok. Mr. Homan did not change as we had suggested the fact that
the staggered terms as normally suggested is to have a 1, 2, 3 year from the
group not from, what has happened is that Mr. Homan has indicated the people
not appointed by the administration will have the shorter terms and that is
not what we suggested.
Mayor Ferre: All right, listen, there's no problem. Does anybody have any
disagreement with what Ike just said?
Mr. Iaconis: With Section 3?
Mayor Terre: Three, anybody disagree?
Mr. Iaconis: Yes, there is the....
Mayor Ferre: Wait a moment, Ike. Does anybody disagree on the Commission?
Mrs. Gordon: What would that be, three people for one year, three for two
years and three for three years initially and then it would revolve from that
point on? I think it should be amended that way.
Rev. Gibson: I have no problems with that.
Mayor Ferre: All right, go ahead.
Mr. Iaconis: And that should not be from just A through
the entire slate.
Mrs. Gordon: Yes, everything.
E it should be from
Mayor Ferre: All right, that's fine. Any problems with that? Ok, Section 4.
Mr. Dixon: I think it should read, "...will be three years from their appoint-
ment" because after you pass the resolution you still have to appoint them -
it's just a thought. I have no....
Mayor Ferre: The terms of an office for the position described in F above
will be three years from the effective date of their appointment - oh, of •
course.
Mr. Iaconis:
Mayor Ferre:
Mr. Iaconis:
That makes Section 4 not necessary.
Section 5, are we alright on Section 4 now?
Section 4 is eliminated by Section 3 staggering.
;2
FE_
•
Mayor Ferre: Oh, I see. Do we need Section 4? Does anybody object to cross-
ing out Section 4?
Mr. Plummer: Oh Yes, wait, whoa! You can't strike out four because four talks
to just the Commission appointees.
Mr. Iaconis: What we said in Section is that all the appointees would be in-
volved in those staggered terms not just the non -Commission appointees.
Mr. Plummer: Yes, but the four speaks to the Commission appointees being
guaranteed three year terms.
Mr. Iaconis: Well, what we indicated was that in section 3 all members of
the Commission, all nine of beg your pardon, of the board will be in the stag-
gered term effect and then have three year terms thereafter which obviates
the need for Section 4.
Mayor Ferre: He's right. Any problem with four? Four is now eliminated, so
now Section 5 becomes four. The City Commission may reappoint individuals to
succeeding terms without repeating the nominating procedures described in
Section 2. Now you have problems with that.
Mr. Iaconis: Yes, sir, that's self-perpetuating and I believe you yourself
indicated that there are other authorities and boards that are self-perpetuat-
ing.
Mayor Ferre: I've got no problems with eliminating that.
Mrs. Gordon: Which one are you on now?
Mr. Iaconis: Section 5 would appear to be self-perpetuating by the Commission
at their wish, at your wish and going through the nominating process would
assure an appropriate input.
Mrs. Gordon: Yes.
Rev. Gibson: Mr. Mayor, I have problem with Section 3. Listen to this.
Mayor Ferre: Three or four?
Rev. Gibson: Three. The terms of office for the positions described in (a)....
Mayor Ferre: No, in all, for all of them. See, that's what we just changed.
Mrs. Gordon: Instead of A through E it's all.
Rev. Gibson: The terms of office for the positions described in all above
will be what?
Mr. Iaconis: Will be on staggered basis, one years, two years and three
years as appointed by the Commission for the initial term.
Mayor Ferre: And then eventually three years.
Mr. Iaconis: And subsequently they will be three year terms.
Rev. Gibson: Appointed by the Commission.
Mr. Iaconis: That is the Commission will appoint who goes for one year, who
goes for two, who goes for three.
Mrs. Gordon: Yes, we do the appointing.
Mr. Iaconis: And next year there will be another three people voted in and
two years from now another three and so on on a staggered basis.
Rev. Gibson: Mr. Mayor, I would feel better if everybody staggered their
terms.
Mayor Ferre: Well that's what he's saying.
Rev. Gibson: But look, you know I live under a law that talks about staggered
terms and that t'ain't the way it goes. This is not what you're saying.
Mayor Ferre: Well tell me what you want.
FEB 22 1979.
• •
Rev. Gibson: I want, if you have a nine member board you must specify....
Mayor Ferre: Every year three come up.
Rev. Gibson: That's true but this is not what you're doing. What you have
to do is to say one of this category is for one year, two years, three years,
one of "D" category one year, two years, three years.
Mayor Ferre: Oh Okay, you want to do it in this document right now?
Rev. Gibson:
you're saying
about.
Mr. Grassie:
Rev. Gibson:
I don't care, I just want to make sure we don't follow what
here because then you have no way of doing what you're talking
We'll rewrite that, Commissioner.
Yes.
Mayor Ferre: A11 right, we're back to what was Section 5 is now Section 4,
that's been eliminated, is that correct?
Mr. Iaconis: Section 4 has now been eliminated.
Mayor Ferre: Section 4 and 5 are both eliminated, is that correct?
Mr. Iaconis, Ir,at's correct.
Mayor Ferre. Now Section 6 now become:• Section 4. The duties and functions
of this board will be to counsel, review ar.2 make recommendations to the city
Commission concerning all waterfront issues except Watson Island which is
already under consideration by another City Corr ttee. There is a City Com-
mittee a:ready established to review Watson Island, there's no use having two
City corzif ttees.
Mrs. C:7.rd^11: One minor change right after the word review, put in "provide
oversight.
Rev. Gibson: Rase, let me tell you something, you just lost me.
Mrs. Gordon.: I lost you?
Rev. Gibson: Yes. Look, man, let me tell you sar,iething. You know I really
have goose pimples about some of this business. I'm willing to go with the
words that are here but when you talk about oversight you know what? I hate
to say this, I've never said this before but I saw a gentleman here earlier,
I have problems with asking me to run for public office and then I must take
all the heat and nobody else takes any heat - their's is a luxury - I ain't
buying that. No, you buy it. Gibson isn't buying it.
Mrs. Gordon: You're reading something into it that I don't read into it.
Mr. Iaconis: May I suggest to you that the term oversight, oversight is in
essence a watchdog operation to have opportunity to come to the City Commis-
sion on behalf of the people through the administration to assure that all
these pleasures come out the way they're supposed to.
Mr. Plummer: Well, isn't that review?
Aev. Gibson: The duties and function of the board will be to counsel, what
is counsel but making recommendation, what is counsel but oversight? What is
counsel but when things don't go right, before I go any further, if I appoint
the board I trust you and I am willing to, you know, I accept your judgement.
Now that mart: fnytime anything goes wrong the buck stops here, you can come
right back here. Okay? Now when you tell me about these other words let me
tell you what I Nipper, know having gone to law school for one day - you put
me in ore. hell of a bind at that point in time. I will go over the word,
counsel, review, and make recommendations to the City Commission concerning
all waterfront issues - I'll buy that, I'm not going no other way. I want to
make sure everybody understands. And remember, I'm a guy who wasn't for the
Waterfront. Do you remember that?
Mr. Iaconis: Yes, sir, I do.
Rev. Gibson: Okay. Because I told you anything you do from here on in impedes
the progress of a commitment I made. Do you understand?
"4 FEB 2 2 1979
Mr. Iaconis: You know that that's not correct.
Rev. Gibson: Don't let's discuss it, I'm going along with you, go ahead.
Mayor Ferree Are there any other questions with Section 4? Anybody else
want to make any further, so we understand how it reads?
Mr. Iaconis: Could we have an opportunity for input on that, your Honor?
Mayor Ferre: Sure, that's why I'm asking you.
Mr. Iaconis: We believe that the difference between a Trust and a Board is
that the Trust concept indicates that the employees would report directly to
the Trust through an executive director or a person who would be a key adminis-
trator. what has been rejected by the Commission as a general body is to
essentially give that away. We understand that. On the other hand, a board
being merely an advisory board will be pushed aside.
Mayor Ferre: Ike, you and I talked about this.
Mr. Iaconis: Yes, sir.
Mayor Ferre: And we weren't going to get into this debate. I brought it out
and now you're putting me in a position with having to answer you. I want to
tell you now that you've brought the subject out on top of the table that I
will not vote for anything that will in any way delegate the responsibility
which means the authority of this here City of Miami elected Commission to any
board or authority. If I could abolish the Downtown Development Authority,
if I could abolish the Off -Street Parking Authority today I'd do it. Now, the
only reason I cannot do it is because it is part of the Charter and because
we are deriving a half a mill which is being used properly which I won't jeop-
ardize. I didn't used to be but today, in the last two or three years I have
iearneci and I am against the delegation, that is the public trust are the
elected officials. You want to be a public trust member you run for public
office and get yourself elected.
Mr. Iaconis: Mr. Mayor, what is the problem with oversight, may I ask that
directly?
Mayor Ferre: The problem with oversight is simply this: That, as the Manager
told me today at lunch when I asked him about the word oversight, he said we
have to get a dictionary and find what oversight means. When he got the dic-
tionary and looked at the word oversight the conclusion of it is one of three
things: Either the administration is delegating administratiive authority or
the Commission is delegating policy authority....
Mr. Iaconis: Which we're not asking for.
Mayor Ferre: Well then would you tell me what the word oversight means?
Mr. Iaconis: In one word coined by one of the Commissioners, a watchdog group
that would be more than an advisory board.
Mayor Ferre: That is implied from the nature of the beast and I told you....
Mr. Iaconis: Can we use the word watchdog then, your Honor, if that would be
more succinct in the wording?
Mr. Plummer: I sure hope you refrain from the word beast.
Mayor Ferre: I don't have any objection if you want to put bulldog or watch-
dog.
Rev. Gibson: I don't mind watchdog.
Mayor Ferre: You want to be a watchdog, fine.
Mr. Iaconis: Okay, a watchdog and oversight would be synonymous as I would
see it.
Mayor Ferre: No, no, look at a dictionary. Do you have, Mr. Grassie, any
problems with having a watchdog?
Mr. Grassie: None at all, Sir, there is a world of difference between over-
sight and watchdog.
FEB 2 2 1979
wC-
• t'
Mr. Plummer: I'm going to tell you, if we can't do better than watchdog...
Rev. Gibson: Mr. Mayor, let me tell you, the citizens, I want to make sure,
Plummer, I want to make sure that you all understand that I went to school,
my minor was English. Okay? Watchdog, I have no problem with watchdog be-
cause the citizens who put me in office automatically get to be the watchdog
and so that's not a problem, but to add oversight then you know I ain't buy-
ing that.
Mayor Ferre: Tom, I'll tell you if want to use a word like, I think watchdog
is an ugly word, but if you want to call it a watchdog, bulldog or any other
kind of a dog it's all right with me.
Mr. Plummer: How about the word monitor?
Mr. Iaconis: Monitor is acceptable.
Mayor Ferre: Wait a minute, the word monitor is like an auditor.
Mr. Grassie: No, that's like oversight.
Mr. Plummer: Okay, put watchdog, it's semantic. I am not going for a watch-
dog. Now I'm going to tell you something, if you can't come up with better
terminology than watchdog
Mr. Lacasa: Just leave it like it is then, the spirit is the same.
Mrs. Gordon: ...put the word monitor, as I read it monitor is a little bit
different than review and
Mayor Ferre: The Chair is open All right, we will take a poll now and
see who wants to do what. You want to add the word monitor.
Mrs. Go.a^n: I would prefer to provide oversight, you don't like it I'll take
monitor.
Mayor Ferre: All right, what do you feel?
Rev. Gibson: I want to leave it as is.
Mayor Ferre: What do you want to do, Plummer?
Mr. Plummer: Arf-Arf.
Mayor Ferre: We've got a watchdog in here. Speak English.
Mr. Plummer: I don't think it is necessary,....
Mayor Ferre: Plummer, just answer.
Mr. Plummer: ... I think the word review is adequate, I don't think you need
to put any of these damned animals in the document.
Mayor Ferre: Do you want to leave it as is?
Mr. Plummer: Yes, I think the word review is adequate.
-Mayor Ferre: You just covered it, thank you.
Mr. Lacasa: I want to leave it like it is.
Mayor Ferre: A11 right, now as I understand it there are three people here so
far who want to leave it the way it is. Now that's the majority and that's it.
Now, are we on Item 7 which now becomes Item 5? It says, after City staff...
Tom?
Mr. Dixon: Yes, sir?
Mayor Ferre: After City staff submits its position to the Board on a given
issue - that, of course, implies that you request staff to give you a position
or give you and they give you the position - the Board and City staff must
present to the City Commission their conclusion on that issue within 45 days
from the dby on which the Board initially received the matter for its consider-
ation. The purpose of that is that this not be used as a delaying tactic to
leave something for ten months that should be done soon.
wC
F E B 2 1979
Mr. Dixon: Mr. Mayor, my only comment is that, as you know, I've had diffi-
culty with the administration, we would like if this board is created that
the board has the ability to staff, "act", if the staff has the ability to
say to the board "act" within 45 days.
Mayor Ferre: Well, the problem with that is that that then gives you author-
ity over the administration.
Mr. Plummer: Well, it gives authority that even we don't have and we can't
give that authority away. You can come to this Commission and request that
staff be instructed to do such and we can request it but you can't....
Mayor Ferre: No, I don't think you'll have that problem because if you'll rem-
ember it says after the City staff submits then you both have 45 days.
Mr. Dixon: It was just a situation we didn't want to be, you know if the board
is created that the staff would delay taking action on a recommendation that
you had approved of, that's all but I guess you have the same difficulty with
that.
Rev. Gibson: I didn't understand that. You mean that we take an action and
the staff is going to delay 45 days or more, is that what you....?
Mayor Ferre: No.
Mr. Dixon: No, we were just in this issue hoping to prevent that from occur-
ing.
Rev. Gibson: I see. Well, don't worry that wouldn't happen. Don't worry,
that won't happen, I promise you that. Don't worry about that.
Mayor Ferre: All right, Item 6, the Board must meet at least four times a year
or at the call of the chairperson.
Mr. Iaconis: Excuse me, Mr. Mayor, I'd like to comment on Section 7 please,
I didn't have an opportunity.
Mayor Ferre: On Section 7, go ahead, sir.
Mr. Iaconis: The intent of our difference initially with the Section now called
7 is that if there is a recommended action that is initiated by the Board we
would not like it to be simply an advisory board saying we think this would be
a nice idea and the staff say thank you very much and proceed their own way.
Mr. Plummer: You can't do that, Ike. When you make a recommendation you've
got to recommend it to this Commission. You cannot directly recommend to staff
nor can we. You recommend to this Commission, we then recommend to the Manager
and set the policy. You can't do it any other way.
Mayor Ferre: It says it very clearly, what happens is this - you tell the staff
that you want their recommendation on what to do at Miamarina. The moment they
give you an answer on that then you've got 45 days and they've got 45 days in
which to conclude and bring it before the City Commission.
Mr. Iaconis: Okay, I would concur with that with one suggestion and that is
that rather than get hung up on the 45 days can we say at the next Commission
Meeting within the 45 day period so as so as not to have some legality keep us
from our goal?
Rev. Gibson: I have no problem with that.
Mr. Iaconis: At the next Commission Meeting within the 45 days.
Mayor Ferre: Do you have any problems with that, that it would be brought up
at the next Commission Meeting after the 45 days?
Mr. Grassie: No, sir, no problem.
Mayor Ferre: It can't be within the 45 days because then you change, unless
you....
Mr. Iaconis: Oh Ok, after, the next Commission Meeting after the 45 days.
Mayor Ferre: The day we present it, in 45 days there is a conclusion and at
the next Commission Meeting we hear it. It might be a day later or it might
two weeks later, whenever the next Commission Meeting is.
77
F E B 2 `' 1973
Mr. Iaconis: Agreed, your Honor.
Mrs. Gordon: There's one point that needs to be clarified on behalf of the
administration and that is that all issues relating to will be submitted, not
just selective issues, is that correct?
Mr. Grassie: The intent, Commissioner, is that the Board will have control
over its own schedule and they will be able to determine the areas in which
they want to become involved. Now we would not be forcing them to consider
things that they may consider not to be of interest to them but anything they
ask about they, of course, would get.
Mayor Ferre: No, that's not the intention.
Mrs. Gordon: Well, that really isn't on target, the point is will everything
relating to the waterfront at least be given to them so they are made aware
of it and then they can select what they wish to proceed to advise on.
Mr. Grassie: I'm sorry, I misunderstood your question, Commissioner. If
your question is if we have something under consideration by the staff which
has to do with the waterfront would we bring it to them?
Mrs. Gordon: Automatically.
Mr. Grassie: The answer is yes.
Mayor Ferre: Let's make sure we understand each other now. I don't want now
or six months from now for an issue to come up before the Commission and Tom
comes in here screaming about it saying that they never heard of it and you
say, "Well, you know, you never asked us". So in other words whenever it
has something to do with the waterfront you are going to inform them.
Mr. Grassie: That is our intention, that is correct, Mayor.
Mayor Ferre: Okay.
Mr. Grassie: And hopefully we won't have any slip ups.
Mr. Plummer: The streets of hell are paved....
Rev. Gibson: Let's put an addendum. Mr. Iaconis, you know you make me do
an awful lot of thinking, man. I think that down at the bottom there you
put an addendum to indicate that any and all issues, you know, so that later
on you know we, our memory fails us. Do you understand? That all issues
pertaining to the waterfront will be brought to the committee.
Mr. Dixon: Reverend Gibson, at the bottom of page 2 it says, "The duties
and function of this board will be to counsel, review and make recommenda-
tions to the City Commission concerning all waterfront issues.
Mrs. Gordon: Yes, it says that but it doesn't say that you're going to be
advised and you're going to be given it in a timely fashion and so forth and
so on and I think it should be in there.
Rev. Gibson: Right, and I think you ought to put it down here so that you
don't - look, I don't want you coming here cussing me out later on, now you
know you all are great for doing that kind of thing....
Mayor Ferre: Well then in Section 5 you just put that sentence in that says
that all waterfront matters will be submitted to....
Rev. Gibson: Beautiful.
Mayor Ferre: Bob, you were right.
Mr. Iaconis: This is in Section 7?
Mrs. Gordon: It moved up to be 5, it was 6.
Mayor Ferre: Section 7 is now Section 5 and all that has happened now is
that one sentence has been added. .... All matters pertaining to waterfront
issues will be brought to the Waterfront Board for recommendation. After
City staff submits its position to the Board, blah, blah. Now the next one
FEB 2 2 1979
•
which is 8 now becomes 6. The board must meet at least four times a year or
at the call of the Board's chairperson. Any objections to that?
Mr. Dixon: No, sir.
Mr. Iaconis: No, sir.
Mayor Ferre: (9) A member's absence from one half of the cumulative meetings
within a one year period or from three consecutive meetings of the board with-
in the member's term of office will be considered automatic resignation from
the board - we don't want non -active members. Any disagreement on that?
Mr. Dixon: No, sir.
Mayor Ferre: Section 10, the Board will select its own chairperson to serve
as chairperson until the end of his or her term of office. Any objections
to that?
Mr. Iaconis: No, sir, that's Section 8 though I believe, you mentioned....
Mrs. Gordon: Now it became 8.
Mayor Ferre: Yes, I'm sorry it becomes 8. Now 11 becomes 9 and it says,
no chairperson shall serve for more than one term and I think we shouldn't,
I don't mean to cast any aspersions on any existing authorities ....
Mrs. Gordcn: What is a term, three years?
Mr. Iaconis: What, let's say a complete term if that person happens to be
a one year appointee?
Mrs. Gordon: Right.
Mayor Ferre: Yes, one complete term.
Mr. Iaconis: One full term?
Rev. Gibson: Yes, because if he's a one year person he..., you know.
Mayor Ferre: No chairperson shall serve for more than one full term. In
other words three years is plenty and we ought to revolve this around. Ok?
The City will provide secretarial support for the Board's activity. Members
of the Board shall serve without compensation. Now, are we in agreement?
Mr. Plummer: I think that you should, and normally it does have at the bot-
ton a catch all phrase that any and all members shall abide by the Charter
of the City of Miami.
Mayor Ferre: Fine, can add that as a new section?
Mr. Iaconis: Would that be inherent in the Code itself?
Mr. Plummer: Well, let me tell what I'm concerned, the one thing that I think
is very loose is the item as listed here as 7.
Mrs. Gordon: Seven originally or 7 now?
Mayor Ferre: Original 7.
Mr. Plummer: Yes, the original 7. And I've got problems with that not that
I have because I'm boudn by it and I know the rules but I think every member
of that Committee has got to understand that they in no way shape or form
have any right to go to the ;:staff or the Manager and to interfere in his
operation in any way shape or form, that every action, every recommendation
that you do must come straight to this Commission.
Mr. Iaconis: Are we in the Sunshine in that regard also?
Mr. Plummer: You'd better believe you are.
Mr. Iaconis: The Board would be in the Sunshine?
Mr. Plummer: Yes, sir.
Mrs. Gordon: Yes.
w9
FEB 2 2 1979
1
Mayor Ferre: i think what Plummer is saying is is that you will be bound
by the Charter of the City of Miami.
Mr. Iaconis: Yes, sir, I know that.
Mayor Ferret Now that also means that you're bound obviously by the statutes
and laws of the State of Florida and the Constitution of the United States
and everything else.
Mr. Plummer: And you shall file disclosures - that's mandatory.
Mr. Iaconis: I'm doing that....
Mayor Ferre: No.
Mr. Plummer: Yes, yes, sir, they sure shall.
Mr. Iaconis: I have already done that, Mr. Plummer. Mr. Plummer, i have
already done that as a member of the Public Health Trust so I have no personal
problem with that.
Mr. Plummer: Well, you're presupposing that you're going to be appointed.
Mr. Iaconis: We're not deterred, Mr. Plummer.
Mayor Ferre: Ike, please, it's 4:00 O'Clock and we're three hours late.
Father?
Rev. Gibson: Mr. Mayor, I would ask us to ask the attorney to word this, "No
chairperson shall serve for more than one term."
Mayor Ferre: One full term.
Rev. Gibson: Counsel, I would urge you, sir that we would pass this with the
full understanding that we mean the full term of a person's elected term be-
cause this is not clear.
Mayor Ferre: Yes. Father, I think that after we've done all of this we pass
it, I think it should come back in finished written form at the next Commis-
sion Meeting.
Rev. Gibson: Right, clean it up.
Mr. Plummer: Oh yes, it looks like a battlefield.
Mayor Ferre: Now, further discussion on the motion that was made by, who made
the motion, Mr. Clerk?
Mr. Dixon: Armando Lacasa did.
Mrs. Gordon: Lacasa and I seconded it
Mr. Ongie: Mr. Lacasa, seconded by Mrs. Gordon.
The following motion was introduced by Commissioner Lacasa who moved
its adoption:
MOTION NO. 79-92
A MOTION CREATING THE MIAMI WATERFRONT BOARD TO BE FORMAL-
IZED BY RESOLUTION AT THE SPECIAL CITY COMMISSION MEETING
OF FEBRUARY 26, 1979.
Upon being seconded by Commissioner Gordon, the motion was passed and
adopted by the following vote -
AYES: Commissioner Rose Gordon
Commissioner Armando Lacasa
Commissioner (Rev.) Theodore Gibson
Vice -Mayor J. L. Plummer, Jr.
Mayor Maurice A. Ferre
NOES% None.
FEB 2 2 1979
9. DEFERRAL OF CONSIDERATION OF ACCEPTANCE OF "FINANCIAL
PLAN" FOR THE CITY OF MIAMI'S CONFERENCE/CONVENTION
CENTER AND GARAGE.
Mayor Ferre: Guy, I apologize to ;jou on Item 13 but we're going to take up
Item 55 out of schedule because there are three attorneys that have to get
one on a plane to Washington and two on a plane to New York.
Rev. Gibson: You think they'll get on there?
Mayor Ferre: I don't think you're going to make it, by the way, but we will
now recognize you on what item is it?
Rev. Gibson: Fifty-five.
Mr. Grassie: Item 55, Mr. Mayor and members of the City Commission, Jim
Connolly will introduce the subject.
Mayor Ferre: Mr. Connolly.
Mr. Jim Connolly: Mr. Mayor and members of the City Commission, by Resolution
No. 78-600 the City Commission had asked that the Manager look into a finan-
cial plan for coming up with the funds required to complete the City's Conven-
tion/Conference Center. As the result of the direction of the resolution the
staff has met with bond counsel for the City of Miami which Brown, Wood, Ivey,
Mitchell and Petty. In consulting with them we determined the legal means of
accomplishing the funding required under the statutes of the State of Florida
and the Charter of the City of Miami and in addition to obtain a tax free
status under the IRS rulings. A method of accomplishing this has been deter-
mined in outline form in the attached financial plan which went out to you on
last Friday. Based upon the outline of that form and after extensive discus-
sion with the Municipal Leasing Corporation which is a packager of this means
of financing and Smith Barney who is one of the largest investment banks and
underwriting concerns in the country, and they've done work for the City in
the past, in general broad description the financial plan that they determined
and this is in a preliminary state right now, ... The financial plan that
has been outlined is a self-liquidating plan where the revenues to the City
from the hotel alone without the Convention Center it appears are adequate to
self -liquidate the financing required to complete the Convention Center.
Under....
Mayor Ferre: Jim, you're going to have to speak up.
Mr. Connolly: Under these terms there are certain recommendations being made
by our bond counsel and I'll outline those for you: (1) The bond counsel is
recommending that the City extend at the present time a letter of intent with
Smith Barney and Municipal Leasing Corporation to go ahead with packaging the
financial requirements for providing these funds.
Mrs. Gordon: I want to know why the amount that you're talking about in this
memorandum which I just received minutes ago, $15,000,000 is needed because
what I want to know is where is the other money that we had set aside for
this construction? Why do you need $15,000,000?
Mr. Grassie: That's a good point that needs to be addressed, Commissioner,
this is a discussion which really seeks the consent in principle from the
City Commission to a way of financing. Now one of the things that we're ask-
ing for is that you authorize us to get a CPA firm specialized in this area
which will certify these numbers to you. What I'm saying is that the amounts
we're talking about now are very informed estimates but they do have to be
verified by a CPA firm.
Mrs. Gordon: I have trouble with this resolution, Mr. Grassie.
Mayor Ferre: Mr. Grassie, Mr. Connolly - Rose, excuse me just for a moment,
I apologize but I've just got this urge right now. Mr. Grassie, Mr. Connolly,
Mr. Worsham and all of you that are involved with this, I've been telling you
everytime you talk about this that it is absolutely essential that you keep
81 FEB 2 2 1979
1
all the members of the Commission informed in every single detail of this
item. For one member of the Commission or two or anybody to come up and
say I don't understand why the $15,000,000 all of a sudden appears indicates
to me that that person was not informed, and since I know that Rose Gordon
reads everything very very carefully that means that she had the opportunity
to listen and this has not been explained and we cannot - we cannot - go into
major projects of this nature as complicated as they are without a fully in-
formed Commission. I don't mean to be lecturing you but good God....
Mr. Connolly: Mr. Mayor, at the Commission Meeting in September a presenta-
tion was made to the Commission identifying all the areas that have changed
since the original program was set forth and in that it itemized all the
extras and they were indeterminate at that time but we indicated it was over
$10,000,000 additional was required. Now that was a full blown presentation
in September.
Mayor Ferre: Mr. Connolly, sir, with all due respects to you, sir, I got
back here Friday - today is Thursday - I have been here six days, I have not
heard nor have I seen hide nor hair of you six days. Now if you want my parti-
cipation in this I expect for you to keep me informed and I just happen to be
the Mayor of this City and I've got one out of five votes and that's absolutely
the same and true for Rose Gordon, Plummer, Lacasa and Gibson. And if you
have not seen them as you have not seen me to explain what the hell this is
all about then I suggest to you, sir, that you have been derelict in your dut-
ies.
Mr. Plummer: I invoke the rule. We'll see you back here on the 8th.
Mayor Ferre: Wait a minute, J. L.
M.L. Plummer: I invoke the rule. The man has not supplied to me the financial
plan.
Mayor Ferre: That may be fine and all that but I want to hear, I want to make
sure that this isn't going to cause irreparable damage to this thing despite
the fa:t that I think you're wrong in what you've done.
Mr. Grassie: Let's accept, Mr. Mayor, that we're wrong in what we've done,
the thing that the staff is trying to get in front of the City Commission at
this point I think is not so much the details of financing as the financial
conctjt and the reason for that is that we're talking about a financial vehi-
cle which is different than the City has used in the past and really what we're
trying to do is something to what we did with you this morning on Rapid Tran-
sit and that is to introduce you to this concept and if we have agreement from
you that it is a valid concept worth pursuing then we would like to go ahead
and....follow that up.
Mayor Ferre: I'm perfectly willing to vote on the concept because we've had
the opportunity to see that.
Mr. Plummer: But Joe, how can we even begin to vote on a concept that we don't
know the figures that are attached to it?
Mrs. Gordon: Mr. Grassie, I'm not going to vote on the concept until somebody
sits down and we go over the fine details of a whole package because this is
probably one of the most important things in our today's agenda.
Mr. Plummer: I said to Mr. Connolly who came to my house this morning with
Connolly and Company at 8:00 O'Clock that if what you were asking for was a
motion of principle that this shall be done under a revenue bond or you develop
a plant under a revenue bond I could agree - I can agree to that. But Mr.
Grassie, I was told this morning as late as 8:00 this morning that all of those
facts and figures would be given this afternoon by Mr. Gunderson. Now, you
know, Jim, am I right?
Mr. Connolly: No, we didn't say the facts and figures would be ready.
Mr. Plummer: Well excuse me, what was Mr. Gunderson going to give us this
afternoon? What was the report Mr. Gunderson was going to give us?
Mr. Connolly: Mr. Gunderson is preparing in depth all of the financial infor-
mation that is required but Mr. Gunderson would do today, is state that this
is the best means for the City to accomplish the financing required at the
cheapest cost and the least amount of time.
FEB 2 2 1979
Mr. Plummer: Mr. Connolly, I realize it was early in the morning and the
doughnuts were heavy but I definitely recall you stating to me that Mr.
Gunderson would be giving a report this afternoon. I might recall to your
attention that you pulled out a piece of paper that was double photostat in
size stating that this was the report that Mr. Gunderson was going to give.
Do you recall that?
Mr. Connolly: That statement is really a projection of the construction dis-
persements and revenues required.
Mr. Plummer: But we dar."t have that.
Mr. Connolly: First of all, it's not the final one it is a rough cut of what
we're approaching but the plan calls for getting verification from an inde-
pendent source which will be a CPA firm that does hotel feasibility....
Mayor Ferre: Mr. Connolly....
Mrs. Gordon: I move this be tabled, Mr. Mayor.
Mayor Ferre: Rose, don't do that yet, let me just express myself, I want to
understand this. You're asking us to approve a financial plan, Okay?
Mr. Connolly: In concept.
Mayor i'erre: In concept. You want us to authorize Municipal Leasing and
Smith Barney to proceed on work?
Mr. Connolly: Yes.
Mayor Ferre: Okay. Necessary to finance and underwrite, you're asking us
to engage bond counsel of Browne, Wood, Ivey, Mitchell and Petty, you're ask-
ing us to authorize for you to get a public accounting firm that specializes
in ho`P1 and hospitality accountancy, you're asking us to authorize Conrad
AssociateF in the Off -Street to update the feasibility, you're asking the
Manager to hereby authorize advertising for bids for a general construction
contract with a guaranteed maximum price, you're asking (7) the Manager to
authorize, terminate the existing Construction Management Service Agreement
and negctiate the termination terms with a construction manager, Rooney
and the Manager is directed upon completion of the work authorized to bring
to t~.e Commission a fully developed financial plan.
Mr. Connolly: Yes.
Mayor Ferre: All right, now, I don't see any problems in any of these section
(1) which is the financial plan because that's where the crux of this matter
is that needs explaining. I see nothing wrong in your asking us to go ahead
and hire Smith Barney, to go ahead and hire bond counsel, to go ahead and hire
a CPA firm, to go ahead and get the Conrad Associates Study done, to go ahead
and get a general construction contract and to bring this all back to the
Commission. That, I think are non -controversial items that we all know we've
got to do. But why, in the Lord's name do you on such a complicated matter
as a financial plan expect for us, this Commission, to rubber stamp this thing
without you having had the opportunity, you or somebody in this whole staff to
explain this to this Commission? I mean it is in my best interest as the Mayor
of this City to make damned sure that every Commissioner here is fully and
totally aware so that when they go out and are asked a question about what this
is all about they don't look like damned fools. And if somebody were to ask
somebody were to ask somebody how the financing plan works I want you to tell
me honestly if you could answer that question.
Mr. Lacasa: No, I can't.
Mayor Ferre: Can you? Well, I'll tell you what. Rose, if you would, and just
in what you were, you were going to table this thing - I would like to see if
we could pass Sections 2, 3 through 9....
Mrs. Gordon: Maurice, I beg your indulgence but I would not pass anything
today on this item.
Mr. Plummer: Mr. Mayor, I've just picked up something here, I want to ques-
tion this here Section 7, Jim.
Mr. Connolly: All right, let me explain that to you. In the financial plan
our bond counsel has recommended that the financing be not placed until the
L� Fib
underwriters are assured that the project can be completed for that amount
of dollars. The only way that they are recommending that we accomplish
that is that we go to a straight general construction contract with a maximum
price and at that time that we award the contract they will award the funds
to us and that calls for going on a straight general construction contract
competitively bid.
Rev. Gibson: Mr. Connolly, I have two problems. If that was the case why
didn't you tell us, you know, you could have called us, told us and you know
cane get us. The other thing is let me say part of my frustration - I hate
to bring people down here from New York and Washington and take the people
out of our community to take up all of this time and then to have to happen
to them what's going to happen. Man, we get a reputation all over this coun-
try saying, you know those people down in Miami don't know where they are and
that's not you, Mr. Manager, you can't do it all that's what your staff people
do. For God's sake, not for my sake, let us look good each time we can.
Mrs. Gordon: Mr. Mayor, we can't even proceed on what you asked us to proceed
on because we don't even know what it would cost to hire a bonding firm. How
can we proceed?
Mayor Ferre: Ok. Mr. Worsham, this is your project, you're involved in all
of this and you see what's happening here, now if you want to say something
I would be happy to open up the microphones to you, sir, if you don't want
to say anything that's up to you, you or your attorney or whoever wants to.
Mr. Plummer: Well, while Mr. Worsham is making up his mind, Mr. Mayor, I am
going to ask, and I'm sure every member of the Commission, Mr. Connolly, I'm
sure after what has transpired here today that you're going to make it a
point to see each one of us between now and March the 8th. But Mr. Connolly,
I want to tell you, sir, that we have reached a point in this complex that
when you come to see me - I can't speak for the others - I want you to bring
a chart with you showing where every dollar is coming from, where every dol-
lar is going to ...
Mrs. Gordon: And when.
Mr. Plummer: Not only when, but I want as I have had a base concern from the
very beginning - what is the deficiency if any that could be created as the
City's potential liability because I want to tell you something, you start
talking in this thing here about other revenues other than Ad Valorem, this
City is experienceing not an increase in other sources of revenue, to the
contrary and if we're faced with a potential liability on other than Ad Valorem
which is the only way I would vote by the way, I want to know where this magic
wand is coming from. But I want to know in complete detail at this stage of
the game before I authorize another dollar for my vote. I want to see a chart
showing me where every dollar is incurred, where it is coming from, when it
is going, how it is going and what this City has as a potential liability and
where that potential liability is going to be covered.
Rev. Gibson: Mr. Grassie, let me ask this question. I'm not a businessman
but I know that every day you lose, what I've learned in Rapid Transit being
on that other, you know every day we lose we lose money. You know this bothers
me - what is this going to do to you, I mean the delay, what does this do to
you?
Mrs. Gordon: Father, I'll tell you what it would do to us if we acted hastily,
we'd get fried on the frying pan.
Rev. Gibson: Look, let me say this: What I'm trying to find out is if you
tell me what this does to you I hope that having heard, that the staff having
heard what this does to you we will not do it to you again nor nobody else.
Tell me, sir.
Mr. Worsham: Yes, Reverend Gibson, Mr. Mayor, Commissioners, I'd like to
clear up a couple of points, Mr. Mayor. First of all, you say this is my proj-
ect.
Mayor Ferre: Our project.
Mr. Earl Worsham: It's our project, that's correct. I have the upper half
of that project which really consists of the hotel.
Mayor Ferre: I'd like to see you build the upper half without the bottom half.
84
FEB 2 2 1979
Mr. Worsham: That's exactly right and from our standpoint on the upper half
we have our financing in place, we have Mass. Murual that has committed
$26,000,000 at a very favorable interest rate to the project, we're putting
in 4% million dollars and we have a construction loan right now from the
Continental Bank that is pending closing at an interest rate below prime inter-
est, 10%. Now Continental Bank cannot close that construction loan and we
need very much to get it closed as quickly as we can, until they know - they,
Continental Bank - knows that the City has the funds with which to build the
project that they committed to. Now, we all know that construction costs
are continuing to escalate. My involvement in the project, Mr. Mayor and
City Commissioners, is to help you in any way that I can, of course, but I
have to proceed with my portion as quickly as we can. With regard to this
financing plan, we have identified some very reputable people that have done
business with the City - Smith Barney and Municipal Leasing Corporation and
I understand that you have engaged bond counsel to review this particular
concept and I think that all that is being requested by Mr. Connolly here
today is to proceed to the next step, to come back to the City Commission
with a revenue bond type issue, lease revenue notes, and proceed from there.
Mayor Ferre: Earl, I wish what you just said were true, if it were true I
don't think this Commission would have any problem. That's not what this
thing says. It says, "Now therefore be it resolved by the Commission of the
City of Miami, (1) the attached financial plan prepared by the City Manager's
Office after consultation with bond counsel is hereby accepted" and the plan
is attached.
Mr. Worsham: Mr. Mayor, the plan, the key points of that plan are in each
instance that that financing is self-liquidating and then there is a legal
letter that is attached to it. It is a very broad conceptual plan. Now the
City certainly needs to be assured that the revenues are going to be avail-
able so that it will be self-liquidating out of the revenues that are gener-
ated from the project.
Mayor Ferre: Earl, we're not going to ...
Mrs. Gordon: I have a dozen questions to ask and I'm not going to take the
time of this Commission to ask them now but I will have the answers by the
Sth and I will then be prepared.
Mayor Ferre: Earl, may I recommend to you, I want to tell you something.
One of the reasons why we went into this project the way we went was to get
the private sector involved. I don't know how anybody else feels about this
but the reason I wanted the private sector involved is because I figured
that you can't get your upper portion until the bottom portion is done and
that you were going to ride herd on this. Now I'm going to tell you some-
thing with all due respects to Mr. Grassie, Mr. Connolly and the administra-
tion, I left this little wrapper on top of my desk as a reminded. Do you
know what I wanted to remind you of? We've got a little machine operation
back here where we get candy and food stuff and all of that. The place is
filthy, the machines never work - it is a mess. Do you know why? Because
government operates it.
Mr. Plummer: No it isn't, the employees.
Mayor Ferre: Well, the same thing, it's an employee group here that oper-
ates it. Now I guarantee you if Wometco Vending or A. B. Dick or somebody
else - a commercial corporation were selling those things there they wouldn't
be out of candy like they are half of the time, the floors would be clean
and it wouldn't look like the pigsty that it looks like and the machines
would work because when they don't work they don't sell candy. Now you go
back there right now and you'll find half of those machines are broken. Now
that's the difference between the public sector and the private sector get-
ting involved and that's going to be valid tonight when we talk about this
marina. That's what this is about. Now it's valid for the James L. Knight
Convention/Conference Center, the City of Miami/University of Miami or what-
ever the name of the darned thing is. Now the point I'm trying to make to
you Earl, is I guess I've already tried to tell Connolly this and I've told
Connolly this at least three or four times, I've told the Manager a dozen
times but they don't seem to be able to listen or at least they listen and
they may not understand or maybe they understand and they're just too busy
to do it. If you want that upper portion done you'd better get yourself and
your attorney and your associates and you'd better grab Mr. Connolly by the
hand and bring him along. I don't mean to speak this way in any derogatory
sense but the fact is that it seems inconceivable to me that today when we're
asked to vote on something that this Commission has not been either informed,
FEB 2 2 1979
1
r,
lobbied, consulted, discussed or whatever you want to call it.
Mr. Worsham: Well, Mr. Mayor, I agree with you wholeheartedly that the
public/private joint venture is an important concept with the private inter-
ests being able to help the City in its implementation of its programs and
explicitly what I have done to this point in that regard is to identify
some people that are willing to loan the City of Miami based upon the reve-
nues of this facility about 30 some odd million dollars. Now that is about
as far as I can go, the details of that particular financing program really
has to be worked out between the City, the City's attorneys and the consult-
ants that the City would hire to analyze the plan and tell you whether or
not the plan makes any sense and that's about as far as I can go.
Mayor Ferre: Thank you very much, Mr. Worsham, and Mr. Connolly, I expect
that we'll be seeing you between now and March 8th with Mr. Wood of Smith
Barney i Barris or whoever else is going to be involved, the attorneys, the
underwriters and everybody who is involved.
Mrs. Gordon: With cost factors, with the original capsule that was available
and how much of it is still remaining and what fees are being charged by
these entities, you know, be ready with all these answers because I'm going
to be asking you all these questions. Okay?
Mr. Connolly: All right, but just let me say in going to visit you between
now and the o:i, it can be nothing more specific than what is called for in
a financial plan unless we authorize the consultants to proceed with the
prelirinary aspects of the financial plan.
Mayor Ferre: See, if you had done all of that then perhaps we could have
vote:. on it now but it hasn't been done. Now I accept the fact a lot of us
are nct available. Ok? But the way you handle that simply is this - you
send a memorandum and you say, "Next Tuesday at 9:00 in the morning" and you
call e•:er;•body up and find out when we're going to be around, "at the con-
ference room down here we're going to have a little session." Now, if one
person shcNs up then you have another one Wednesday and you have one on
Thursc'ey ^-? you have one on Friday and then you chase Plummer down at the
funeral hone until you get him. You did it today.
Mr. Connolly: I've been there.
Mayor Ferre: Well Ok, then be there again until you get it done. Mr. Fine?
Mr. Martin Fine. Mr. Mayor, members of the Commission, I represent Mr. Wor-
sham and his associates in connection with this enterprise and I hope it
doesn't sound presumptuous but I would suggest to you that you might want to
consider setting aside a particular day rather than a regularly scheduled
meeting day to hear this matter because as Mrs. Gordon and others of you have
pointed out it is a very complex complicated difficult matter and it appears
to me that after you sit here from 8 O'Clock to almost 4 or 5 O'Clock with
three or four heavy hours ahead of you which inevitably you have at every
meeting that it becomes very difficult to analyze this and I hope you will
receive it in the spirit in which it is given, I think you might want to
consider a separate day for it.
Mayor Ferre: Al]. right, how about on the 26th?
Mrs. Gordon: You have a meeting on the 26th.
Mayor Ferre: Precisely, but I don't know how long that meeting is going to
last but I don't think it is going to be that long.
After further discussion it was decided that the preceding item would
be heard on March 8th, 1979.
86
F _ : : 2 197:
10. PERSONAL APPEARANCE BY GUY BAILEY IN CONNECTION WITH
THE "BALL POINT" LITIGATION.
Mayor Ferre: We're back to you, Mr. Bailey, with our apologies for the two
hour delay, Item 13.
Mr. Guy Bailey: Mr. Mayor and members of the Commission, I am here to report
on the Ball Point litigation, I guess to discuss it since I have previously
reported it to you. I think I was here in December, perhaps November. I
indicated to you that the Supreme Court largely in response to the position
taken by Governor Askew and by Attorney General Shevin had chosen not to
hear a critical issue in the case which was the issue of sovereignty lands,
they had also declined to rule upon two other issues which were whether or
not the action that they have taken is an impairment of the City's contract
with the State or an unlawful and unconstitutional taking of the City's land.
I told you the day I think that I was here that I was filing a motion for re-
hearing but that I expected that we would get no relief from that. In Decem-
ber they did deny without comment or further ruling the motion for rehearing
and commenced a 90 day period in which we must take our appeal to the Supreme
Court of the United States. Now we have because of the nature of the posi-
tion taken by the City what is known as a direct appeal to the United States
Supreme Court to be contrasted with what is called a Petition for Writ of
Certiorari. Now I have been asked by the Mayor and I think by Mr. Knox and
Mr. Grassie what the chances are and, of course, I can't tell you that. We
c'iled the Clerk's Office of the Supreme Court to see if they had any stets,
all we could find out is that they take jurisdiction or accept jurisdiction
in 16% of the cases filed but then they summarily dispose of some of them.
They don't have stats on how many they summarily dispose of, they also said
that most of those decisions are made within six weeks of when the various
briefs were filed and I would assume that would mean after brief would be
filed if the opposing side files a brief here. So when I was here Mr. Gras-
sie asked me if I needed further authorization and I indicated to him that
I do not because of your original resolution and I'm here to see if anybody
wants to ask me anything and I assume because of the discussion in the news-
paper by I think the peoples' names, Mr. Gould's organization in Washington,
that there is a proposed sale, I have not seen a contract, I don't know
whether the City has seen a contract. I recall in an earlier attempt to
condemn this same property that there was an announcement of a sale by Mr.
Ball's interests which so far as I can tell never occurred but it did suc-
ceed in having the City Commission decide not to go forward.
Mrs. Gordon: In 1972 I believe that was.
Mr. Bailey: It was before my time but
event I've proposed, and I have just a
the work done to file it and I propose
it. I was asked to come to discuss it
questions.
I do vaguely recall that. In any
few days left to file, I have most of
to file it and I'm here to discuss
and I'm here and I guess to answer
Mayor Ferre: All right, first of all I think there are several people who
want to speak. I've got a note that John Aurrell, John, you represent Mr.
Gould do you? You want to be recognized. Does anybody else want to speak
on this? Roy, do you have something to add to this? All right, anybody else
want to speak? Alright, sir, go ahead.
Mr. John Aurrell: Mr. Mayor and Commissioners, my name is John Aurrell and
I'm an attorney with the Miami law firm of Mahoney, Hadlow and Adams and I
represent Theodore B. Gould who has entered into an agreement to purchase
Tract D of the property in question from the St. Joe Paper Company. My pur-
pose in being here today is to express Mr. Gould's views on the matter of
the City attempting to take an appeal of the St. Joe Paper Company litiga-
tion to the United States Supreme Court. I just have a few points to make
and I will try to be brief. First of all, we want it clearly understood
that it is Mr. Gould's view that if the case does indeed have merit and if
the appeal has merit then, of course, the City Commission should approve
the appeal and the appeal should be taken. That is, of course, a decision
that must be made by the City. Secondly, I do want to advise you that in
connection with making his decision to acquire this property in the first
instance Mr. Gould sought the advice of his New York counsel which is a sub-
stantial law firm by the name of Cadwalder, Wickersham and Taft in New York
87
FEE 22 19 '.,
1
City as to the status of the St. Joe Paper Company litigation and as to its
affect if any on the planned acquisition of the property. Mr. Gould's attor-
neys advised him that in their view the chances of success of an appeal by
the City to the United States Supreme Court were extremely unlikely and
that in their judgement the appeal would be without merit. Mr. Mayor, Mr.
Gould relied upon this advice when he made his determination to enter into
the agreement to buy this property. Subsequently, Mr. Gould has asked our
law firm in its capacity as his attorneys as to our views on the merits of
such an appeal and we have likewise advised Mr. Gould that we do not believe
such an appeal would be successful. We understand that the City has employed.
Mayor Ferre: You know Plummer asked the question, "If that's the case what's
your problem?".
Mrs. Gordon: Yes, what's your problem then?
Mr. Plummer: If that's your case, what's your problem?
Mr. Aurrell: The problem, Mr. Plummer, is if an appeal is undertaken it
will delay our project. We are anxious to proceed very very rapidly, the
project has been constructed and planned upon a tight time schedule as the
gentleman on the previous agenda item indicated the construction costs are
going up at a dramatic rate, we believe at about 1% per month. We're talk-
ing about a project that is in the ragne well in excess of $100,000,000.
Our cost fci each month of delay then is in excess of $1,000,000. This is
a business venture in the private sector, it is carefully put together, any
delay, Corr.i.ssioner Plummer, will have an affect an affect and an impact on
cur plant.; and we'll simply have to access as to whether that project can go
forward if we have a delay and if it affects our financing. I don't believe
any lending institution would make a commitment to spend this kind of money,
to allow it to be spent, to be put into the ground with any kind of cloud on
the fee title of the property. That is our concern.
Mr. F1=,er: When did Mr. Gould enter into the picture?
Mrs. Gordon: How long ago?
Mr. Aurrell: Mr. Gould, and I don't have the contract in front of me....
Mz. Plummer: Approximately.
Mr. Aurrell: ...but I just asked the question, I believe the contract was
signed with the St. Joe Paper Company on or about January 17th.
Mr. Plummer: Of this year?
Mr. Aurrell: Yes, sir.
Mr. Plummer: And at that time this matter was on appeal.
Mr. Aurrell: No, your honor, at that time....
mr. Plummer: It was in litigation.
Mr. Aurrell: At that time, Commissioner Plummer, the Florida Supreme Court
had denied rehearing. I think the denial of rehearing was December 28, 1978,
the decision and original opinion of the Florida Supreme Court I believe was
October 5, 1978 and the decision of the Third District Court of Appeal from
which Certiorari was taken was in 1977, I believe May.
Mr. Plummer: And is there not a time frame in which you have the right to
appeal to the United States Supreme Court, and when was that?
Mr. Bailey: In March.
Mr. Plummer: Of this year?
Mr. Bailey: March of this year.
Mr. Plummer: So in other words your right of appeal extended until, I'm
sure Mr. Gould was aware until March of this year.
Mr. Bailey: Yes, sir.
88
FEB 2 2 1979
Mr. Plummer: If he had this very learned law firm of New York and the great
honorable firm of Miami he was fully aware that this was a possibility.
Mr. Aurrell: That's precisely why I made my original point, Commissioner
Plummer, that he asked the New York law firm, he was aware that there was
the potential of an appeal, he inquired as to the merits of that appeal,
the merits of success on that appeal.
Mr. Plummer: The point that I'm trying to make is very simply, he didn't
enter into this with his eyes closed. He was fully aware of the potential.
Mr. Aurrell:
Mrs. Gordon:
he was going
On the contrary, he entered into this with his eyes wide open.
...question the attorney that's handling the case, ask him if
to appeal ... made an assumption which is kind of, you know.
Rev. Gibson: Counsel, may I ask a question? Ask both of you, and since
I'm not an attorney, would you know the same thing that he knows? Meaning,
you know, that he could go further or he couldn't go any further, would you
know the same thing that he knows?
Mr. Aurrell: Father Gibson, let me answer it this way. I know as he knows
as everyone here knows that he could if he wants to try to take a direct
appeal to the United States Supreme Court. I don't believe that's the ques-
tion that is before us. I think the question that is before us is should
he or will he and is that a meritorious appeal.
Rev. Gibson: Counsel, I heard what you said but I want you to answer my
question. Do you know the same rule of the game that he knows?
Mr. Aurrell: If you're talking about his right of appeal, yes.
Rev. Gibson: I'm talking about law, you know, you're a lawyer he's a lawyer.
The same rule that is for you is for him, isn't that right? I had a roommate,
I want to repeat this again - I had a roommate from the Virgin Islands who
was my roommate in college who said, " A law that works for you will work
against you". Okay, listen. You knew that he had until March to appeal.
Ok. It might be very interesting, I was concerned, I don't know how many of
you all - was that Mr. Gould, what's this gentleman's name with the Downtown
Parking Authority? Was that Mr. Gould I saw? Ok. I'm sure that everybody
knew the same thing. Now you know the paper is always ripping us up about
we aren't prudent and judicious and alert and all of that. Okay? I want to
put that in the record, I hope they'll quote that. I want to refute them
tonight that maybe we might want to be judicious and alert in this matter.
I would be very interested, and this has nothing to do with my voting for or
to go ahead or not go ahead... Huh? I want to ask this question because I
think the Commission ought to be enlightened. Let's see, ten years ago -
that's about right - ten years ago I think the members of the, Mr. Ferre
might know, the Mayor might know this or Plummer or Rose.... Ten years ago
they offered for that piece of property $20,000,000. Isn't that somewhere
like that?
Mr. Plummer: Who offered?
Mrs. Gordon: That was a kind of rumor that went around but we don't know
that to be a fact.
Rev. Gibson: Ok, wait a minute. The point I want to make, why I'm inter-
- ested. Ten years ago that same piece of property was offered for say
$20,000,000.
Mr. Plummer: Now Father, you're getting it confused. The Ball Point por-
tion of the bond issue sas 815, the other portion was 12, that's the property
north of
Rev. Gibson: Ok. Let's assume, did they sell it then?
Mr. Plummer: No.
Rev. Gibson: They didn't, Okay, so I'm going to make my point. If they
sold it then for the money that was offered them I venture to say that same
stoney if it was deposited in the bank would have been worth about a third
more. Now I'm not in high financing, you are, you know what that's all
about. Now, the point I make is we've been arguing about this and a lot of
people have hard-nosed us and pushed us around - I'm willing to take my gam-
ble. Counsel, I don't know about another Commissioner and I don't speak for
89
FEE r 1`79
I
nobody but black Theodore Gibson, I'm going to take my gamble.
Mr. Plummer: Well Father, let me tell you one of the things - and to coun-
sel - that bothers me. Father remembers part of history, I live it. And
one of the things aside from my personal feelings, and I say that, that we
were sold the bill of goods about the total amount of dollars that were dedi-
cated to the acquisition of those two pieces of property, that aside, one of
the things that made this Commission back off very hurridly was when an arti-
cle appeared in press that stated suddenly out of a clear blue sky there was
an offer of $30.000,000 for the acquisition of that property and we're sit-
ting here with 8,. It was proposed at the time - $20,000,000, it was a hell
of a lot more money than what we had - and they were suggesting to this Com-
mission that we go and take the property and let the courts argue about how
much we're going to pay and I fought like a Tiger up here that said no way.
Now, I think that the fear of this Commission today is that same pink ele-
phant is being flown up in the sky. I have not seen a contract that this Mr.
Gould even exists, I don't know him. I have not seen what conditions are
placed on the contract. I don't know if the man has the kind of money that
has been purportedly in the press and is this another scare tactic to get
this Commission to back off?
Mr. Aurrell: Mr. Plummer, let me if I may respond.
Mr. Plummer: I think these are the fears that you should realize that this
Commission is operating under.
Mr. Aurrell: Let me again see if I can put this into perspective that I want
my presentation to be taken in. If it is the considered judgement of the
City that there is a meritorious and valid appeal and Mr. Gould says fine,
take it, I am not here nor was Mr. Gould or his representative requested to
come here to argue one way or the other on that point. The suggestion was
that it might be of interest to you to know where Mr. Gould stands and where
this project stands and what affect this action or the lack of action might
have on this project. I am here to tell you from Mr. Gould's standpoint what
you do today may do to his plans - that's all - and I think that that will
help you make up your mind.
Mrs. Gordon: What is the scheduled date for closing on the sale?
Mr. Aurrell: June 30th.
Mrs. Gordon: June 30th? And we're now into what, February?
Mr. Aurrell: That's correct, February 22nd.
Mr. Plummer: But sir, one again - I'll get near the microphone so it can
be on the record - what is his plan?
Mr. Aurrell: His plan is to develop Tract D with hotel facilities, parking
facilities, condominium facilities and an office building.
Mr. Plummer: Have you furnished anything or has he furnished anything to
this Commission showing and substantiating that he is going forward? I have
not seen a thing, has anyone else on this Commission, Mr. Grassie? I have
not seen a thing.
Mt. Grassie: I attended a briefing to which I think the City Commission was
invited, Commissioner, at the DDA in which the project was presented and the
various elements were described. It was open to the press and you probably
remember that it was reported in the press.
Mt. Plummer: That means nothing to me.
Mr. Grassie: I'm talking about the persona presentation that was also avail-
able, and I believe that you were not able because of another commitment to
make it but that opportunity was one that I was able to take advantage of and
I did see the plans, yes.
Mrs. Gordon: What did you see?
Mr. Grassie: Not only the design concept from an architectural point of view
but also a dollar allocation to the various elements of the plan which includ-
ed a hotel, an office tower and two condominium buildings built on a platform
of parking structure on that point.
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FEB 2 2 1979
Mayor Ferre: Let me slake a statement into the record now at this point. I
have spent some time with Guy Bailey and I have called attorneys all over
this town trying to get opinions which is really not a fair thing to do and
I'm not going to say who they are on the record but they are highly respected
people that we all know and who are active in civic activities. Let me tell
you what the dilemna. is. Guy Bailey has come up with a brilliant legal ap-
proach to something, which I'm not a lawyer and I don't know if it functions
or it doesn't function, it sounds logical to me and evidently some other peo-
ple have looked at the briefs who do know and think it is a reasonable ap-
proach. However, the lower court ruled against him, the appellate court
ruled against him and the Supreme Court of Florida ruled against him. Now
those are three separate courts htat have said no. The question is will the
Supreme Court of the United States say no. Now, when Mr. Gould came into the
picture - and we owe that to a great sense to Roy Kenzie who when Mr. Gould
came here and started looking at the Miami community as to whether or not he
would invest, Roy cultivated, motivated, helped them to decide and he finally
chose three properties to look at and this was one of the three and on his
own this was his choice. He went up to see Mr. Ball, negotiated and came to
a conclusion. Now, I in Washington checked out Mr. Gould. Mr. Gould is for
real, this is not a fictitious man, he is for real. He is really for real,
everybody knows who he is.
Mr. Plummer: I don't.
Mayor Ferre: Well, you're not everybody.
Mr. Plummer: Sorry, I wasn't in Washington.
Mayor Ferre: I'm talking about the construction, developing and business
community in the Washington area. His partner is a fellow by the name of
Clark. Mr. Clark owns a company called Hyman Construction. Hyman Construc-
tion is for real. Hyman Construction is the construction company in Washing-
ton. There isn't a block where Hyman doesn't have a sign up. These people
are for real and they have made a for real offer to buy a for real property,
there's no question about it. Furthermore, Mr. Hood Bassett and the South-
east Bank have checked out Mr. Gould and Mr. Clark. They say that they're
for real. Mr. Alvah Chapman of the Chamber of Commerce checked out Mr. Gould
and Mr. Clark of Hyman, they say that Mr. Gould is for real and this is a
for real project. Now here is what we have. We have an on -going project
which is going to be a hundred million dollars. Every day that these people
lose, every month that goes by costs them millions of dollars.
Mrs. Gordon: Well they're not closing, Maurice, until almost July.
Mayor Ferre: Yes, but the question is that I don't mind going along with
this provided that it doesn't jeopardize anything if they can close in July.
What concerns me is that if we go up to Washington, Guy, on direct appeal -
this isn't a Writ of Certiorari because that's not the case as you explained
it is a direct appeal - if we knew from the court whether they would take
jurisdiction of this in the next month or two I wouldn't have any problems
but I understand these things take up to as long as nine months.
Mr. Aurrell: Mr. Mayor, we also have a problem, let me clarify one thing.
Mayor Ferre: Let me finish and then you can. Now, so I'm worrying about
the time constraints. The second thing that I'm worryied about is that for
these people to buy this property they've got to get a clar title. The only
way you can get a clear title for a piece of property this size, and who is
going to buy it whatever it is whether it is 15, 20 or whatever million dol-
lar property and not get a clear title, just to get an insurance, what
they call title insurance, you can't get title insurance - Okay - if there
is a pending cloud over the property. Now we went over this, Guy Bailey
and I. He said, "Well, why don't you come to some kind of an agreement with
Mr. Gould that if the City of Miami is the rightful owner of the property
rather than Mr. Ball that you would sell the property to Gould under the
same circumstances, the same contract, the same everything?" The problem
with that as I understand it is two fold (1) that if we follow that proced-
ure and it is, indeed, City of Miami property we would have to go through
a public bid process of selling it under a bid process and we couldn't just
sell it without going through the public process. (2) And that's the most
difficult problem, is that unless we can prove that there is no public use
for the property we are precluded from selling the property. So number one
is meaningless if you can't do number two, and since this Commission has a
record of saying that we wanted that for the public and we wanted it for a
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park, defacto then we would be precluded from selling the property so we're
back to peg one and I don't see the avenue in that direction so we're stuck.
Mrs. Gordon: Maurice, in my opinion we don't even have a choice to give up
the right of the people to a piece of property where there is a claim which
has merit enough in my opinion to go on....
Mayor Ferre: To be defeated three times by three separate courts including
the Supreme Court of Florida?
Rev. Gibson: Maybe i ought to respond. You know I still believe in the
human element. Counsel, I still believe in the human element. The more re-
moved you are from me, you know what I mean? Do I have to say any more? You
big boy. Okay, I've been around preaching for a long time, I hope you under-
stand what I'm talking about. Washington doesn't give a good damn about me,
they'll decide it not even knowing I'm Theodore Gibson. I've been up there
once before and man, everybody told me, "No, no, Gib, you're going to jail."
I went to Washington and I sat there just sweating it out and I came out,
walked out of the United States Supreme Court feeling, just ... like that. I
went to the hospital, I said, well, I know I'm going to jail. On in March,
that was around in the fall, down in March in December, around thereabouts.
Around in March I got a call, a newspaper called me, said, "Ted Gibson?" I
said, "Yes, sir." Said, "How would you like to know that you have won that
case?" And what is the Supreme Court Justice, the Jewish fellow who left the
court, what's his name? Arthur Goldberg rendered the decision. I said,
"Thank you God!"
Mayor Ferre: And Arthur Goldberg, don't forget.
Rev. Gibson: Do you see what I'm talking about? Okay, I hope my point is
taken.
Mr. Aurrell: Father Gibson, Mr. Mayor, my point so you understand it, again,
if you a All think upon the advice of your counsel that you should take this
field that's your decision and we'll live with it. I want to tell you though
what it does to us because we were asked to come and tell you that. Now I
mentioned in response to a question as to when we were closing that we're clos-
ing at the end of June. The question that wasn't asked but is more signifi-
cant is when do we plan to start construction. We plan to start construction
in July, as early in July as we can as soon as we get title. In the meantime
we are doing a great many things that must be done in order that we be in a
position to proceed in July. All of that will come to a screeching halt if
we can not be guaranteed of getting clear title. Our lenders won't lend, we
can't close the property, everything will stop until that cloud is removed.
So it will delay us, it may ultimately make us decide not to go through with
the purchase, it may make us decide not to go through with the project. I
frankly don't know, we will have to reassess and re-evaluate this thing if
there is a delay for this or any other reason because this is a project that
must be commercially feasible. So it will have a profound affect upon us.
Mr. Bailey's suggestion as to us entering into a negotiated contract with the
City to acquire the property from the City upon the same terms and conditions
as we have already agreed to acquire it from the St. Joe Paper Company in
the event the City wins in our judgement and pursuant to an opinion that we
gave to our client and pursuant to a letter we sent to Mr. Grassie yesterday
it would be inadvisable we believe, as the Mayor pointed out, that that would
not be sound and that Mr. Gould should not get involved in that.
Mayor Ferre: Well now let me ask you this and then I want to ask the City
Attorney, Mr. Knox and then go back to Mr. Grassie but let me ask you this:
I understood your client was going to get a legal opinion - your firm? From
somebody up in New York or I don't know where and Edward Bennett Williams'
Law firm on the constitution..., on whether or not they thought this matter
had merit, and as I understood it we were going to have two or three letters
here from law firms that said that they concurred with the Florida Supreme
Court's ruling that this thing had no merit and wouldn't be, now where is all
that stuff?
Mr. Grassie: I think that's something that I've told you about, Mr. Mayor,
and I can comment on it whenever you think that's appropriate.
Mr. Aurrell: I think what you're referring to is what I earlier referred to
and that is the Cadwalder firm which is Mr. Gould's set of attorneys, advised
him on this point prior to his acquiring the property as to whether they felt
92
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that there was a realistic chance of success if an appeal was taken. Sub-
sequently, our firm has been asked to give our advice to our client, Mr.
Gould, as to the same fact and we have advised him and that is a matter be-
tween us and our client. It is my understanding that the City has sought
the services of Mr. Edward Bennett Williams in Washington, D. C., the City,
and I believe that is the appropriate way, for Mr. Gould's attorneys to ad-
vise the City I don't think would be appropriate, you need independent advice
of your own City Attorney and of your independent counsel.
Mayor Ferre: Yes, sir. Now we turn over to Mr. Grassie.
Mr. Grassie: We've had a very difficult situation in this case, Mr. Mayor,
because the City has been interested in trying to make sure that if the claim
that Guy Bailey has been pushing forward has merit that we want to be of every
assistance and try and make sure that that succeeds. We are faced on the
other hand with the reality that the claim has been tested three times and
has been defeated three times and the last time it was defeated unanimously
by the Supreme Court of Florida....
Mayor Ferre: That's not your, you know you said you were going to get.....
Mr. Grassie: The other side of the question is that we have a developer who
is interested in making about a $100,000,000 investment in our community
whose project if this question goes to the Supreme Court as is now being pro-
posed could be more expensive to the developer by 6, 8, 9 million dollars de-
pending on how long the appeal takes. So what we're talking about is 6 or 8
million collars of the developer's money as against the possibility that after
three defeats that this case could be successful at the Supreme Court level.
That obviously is a very difficult choice for the City to be in. Now ....
Mr. Plummer: I disagree with you.
Mayor Ferre: Wait a moment, let the man finish.
Mr. Grassie: My first attempt to resolve this at least in terms of what I
could advise the City Commission on was to ask Guy Bailey what the chances of
success or what the chances of acceptance on the part of the Supreme Court
would be and as he has already reported to you he told me that he really could
not say. I then consulted with the City Attorney and asked George whether he
would have any objection to my consulting with a Washington firm that special-
izes in questions of....
Mayor Ferre: No, that's not what you told me. You told me
Mr. Grassie: Mr. Mayor, can I simply tell you what I said?
Mayor Ferre: But you left a very important thing out. It isn't that you didn't
want to consult George, it's that you consulted George and George couldn't ad-
vise on this thing. That's very important.
Mr. Grassie: Well, what I asked the City Attorney was whether he would have
any objection if I asked the question of a Washington firm specializing in
this and the answer was....
Mayor Ferre: Why would you want a Washington firm, why wouldn't you ask just
George Knox?
Mr. Grassie: Because what I wanted to bring to you was the opinion, if I could
get it, of a firm that was in this business on a day to day basis in Washing-
ton practicing in front of the Supreme Court and George did not object to that,
he felt that that would be alright if I did that. I called the firm of, Ben-
nett Williams' firm in Washington and asked that they give me an opinion as
quickly as they could. Now the difficulty that they have had is that they
have been snow bound, as you know, for three or four days and they did not
get any information on which to work but they have promised us an opinion by
the first of March. What I would suggest, since this is a very difficult
choice for the City Commission, is that you may wish to bring back to your
agenda on March 8th the question of what the project is all about, what kind
of guarantees there are that, in fact, there is a project and that it is go-
ing forward and also what the opinion of Washington counsel is, assuming
that they will have an opinion by that time.
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FEE 22 197
Mrs. Gordon: You know I could be wrong but I think that this Commission
doesn't have to act upon the matter, that you were given the authority to
proceed with this to the nth degree and you're proceeding on that basis,
am I correct? Am I also correct in that you received a very minor sum
many years ago and you have been proceeding on your own out of pocket dol-
lars in all of these litigations, am i right or wrong on that?
Mr. Bailey: In terms of attorney's fee time, yes, ma'am, the cost to the
City, you know the small cost the City pays.
Mrs. Gordon: Yes, that your fee was predicated upon a successful conclu-
sion and that your fee would then be based upon the value of the property
obtained for the City and a percentage of that value.
Mayor Ferre: Guy, I forgot the deal, as I recall it was $25,000, is that
right?
Mr. Bailey: I remember it painfully well, sir, it was $25,000 to be ap-
plied against...
Mayor Ferre: Against.
Mr. Bailey: ... (cont'd) the 1975 assessed value of the property.
Mayor Terre: Oh yes, Okay. Against a percentage, I think it was 10% was
it?
Mr. Plummer: Two percent.
Mayor. Ferre: Oh 2%.
Mr. Bailey: Yes, sir.
Mayor Ferre: Okay, I remember now. Well, I think - let me see if I can
sum up - I just want to make sure that the record, I want to put into the
record so that we don't have a problem here, obviously Mr. Grassie does
nut remember, but I remember him telling me the reason that he could not
consult Mr. Knox is because Mr. Bailey was attorney of record and that,
therefore, Mr. Bailey being the attorney of record was the person that had
to be consulted on this thing and, therefore, Mr. Knox was precluded from
involving himself other than in an advisory capacity because otherwise I
guess the question would arise, and I'm sure that was not your intention,
is that I'm sure that since you are not our City Attorney, Mr. Grassie, I
mean what business do you have going and hiring attorneys in Washington,
and the person who would hire an attorney would be George Knox. That's
why I wanted to get that into the record to clarify it. George?
Mr. Knox: Yes, sir, that's essentially what I wanted to add. The posi-
tion taken by the Office of the City Attorney with respect to our evalua-
tion if you will or the evaluation of a law firm which regularly engages
in the business of appearing before the Supreme Court was that we as at-
torneys are particularly concerned about professional courtesies and
ethical considerations and it is bad form as among attorneys to have one
attorney "review" the work, if you will, of another attorney and evaluate
it and make some predictions about the merit of the cases that the attor-
ney may possess. Along the same lines, however, I can announce that we
have forwarded copies of the court's opinions which, of course, are pub-
lished to Mr. Bruce Rogo who is the Dean of the School of Law and Nova
University and is an academician and has no interest in the outcome of
this decision in either respect and asked him if he would review based
upon his own knowledge and his own keeping up with the Supreme Court, be
dispositioned towards the Supreme Court hearing questions which are re-
lated to the legal questions that Mr. Bailey is endeavouring to present
to the Supreme Court.
Mayor Ferre: Well that's wonderful. I'll tell you, George, that's...
I think that was a wise choice, I can't think of a more qualified con-
stitutional lawyer than Dean Rogo and, of course, everybody knows Edward
Bennett Williams. My position I think is this - John, I just want you to
hear what my position is, I'm one out of five here. I don't think we
ought to do anything here today, I think Rose is right which means that
he is going to go ahead and file this appeal. All right, now if I get two
letters from people of the caliber of the Dean of the Law School at Nova
University who is a fairly well recognized constitutional lawyer who was
your choice, right? And from Edward Bennett Williams I think I personally
94
FEB 2' 1979
in view of the statement that you made about this very large and very im-
portant development in downtown Miami, I would have to reassess my position
at that point but I'm not saying, and please don't misunderstand it, Mahoney,
Hadlow and Adams is not qualified but I do think that you're kind of self-
serving because you represent Mr. Gould.
Mr. Aurrell: We're only representing our client, your honor, and you should
get your own opinions and make your own decisions.
Mayor Ferre: You know your opinion is your opinion and his opinion is his...
Mr. Plummer: Neither one of them are voting.
Rev. Gibson: I just want to add this just so as to give you some added sup-
port. I went on and I didn't get you know no answer and I got a Writ of
Certiorari and I got all the went all the way up, jumped them. Low and be-
hold, Gibson got free. Okay? That might be hope for the future.
Mr. Bailey: Father Gibson, lawyers, it has been said when you get three
lawyers you've got twelve opinions and I have no doubt that we're going to
get a number of different opinions. I was hoping to get the opinion of
the Supreme Court of the United States, I don't think they'll tell us in
advance and I don't know how else to get it but to ask them.
Rev. Gibson: Right.
Mrs. Gordon: We wish you a lot of.good luck, we hope you meet with success.
Mayor Ferre: All right, is there anything else to come up before us?
Mr. Aurrell: No, your honor, thank you.
Mayor Ferre: Okay, thank you very much.
Mr. Bailey: Thank you.
11. ESTABLISH "CITY OF MIAMI HEALTH FACILITIES
AUTHORITY"
Mayor Ferre: All right, Mr. Octavio Verdejas happens to have a very impor-
tant meeting that he has to get to so I'm going to take him out of sequence,
Item 48 on the Health Facilities authority...
Mrs. Gordon: Octavio is the President of the Health Systems Agency, South
Florida.
Mayor Ferre: Mr. Verdejas is the President of the Dade County Health System,
is that right, is that what the name of it is?
Mr. Octavio Verdejas: The Health Systems Agency of South Florida which is the
local planning agency for Dade and Monroe Counties in accordance with Public
Law 93641.
Mayor Ferre: So you're the big Mc Gaffer in that whole thing. Isn't that
what you're in? Don't you serve on the board?
Mrs. Gordon: Yes....
Mr. Verdejas: The reason I wanted to address you Commissioners today was back
in November of 1978 our board, we had a committee which studied also the Health
Facilities Authority and we recommended, our board recommended the institution
of the Health Facilities Board so we are pretty much in accordance with your
request here, we philosophically were in favor of this. My only concern here
Mrs. Gordon: One minute, Octavio, until we quiet the noise in the back.
Mayor Ferre: All right.
i IIIII11I111
95
FEB `'' r:i79
Mr. Plummer: The City passed an ordinance this morning saying no one could
stand in the rear. That goes for Mr. Bond and Mr. De Jesus, Mr. Dean, Mr.
Simpson, Mr. Horne, either come in and have a seat....
Mayor Ferre: Officer, would you do us the favor of asking all the people
back there to either come in and keep quiet or get out?
Mr. Plummer: I wasn't that strong.
Mayor Ferre: All right, go ahead.
Mr. Verdejas: All right, let me start again. In November of 1978 the Board
of Directors of the Health Systems Agency of South Florida approved a resolu-
tion with regards to a Health Facilities Authority. The reason we did that,
we felt that by creating this authority or by suggesting the creation of the
Authority the hospitals could either refinance their loans and obtain better
interest rates which in turn will benefit the consumers, and it will be in
the betterment of the community to . At the same time when our
committee studied that Health Facilities Authority we thought that the best
way to go about it was through the Dade County Government, the reason being
that we felt that each city within the Dade County Government originated
their own Health Facilities Authority we were going to a loss of effort, ...
, the standards and procedures might be different and we felt that
the best way was just to have one that really controlled all the hospitals in
our particular area. At .this time I also realized and understand that you
City Commissioners have responsibilities in regards to hospitals which are
located in your particular area and you cannot just sit and wait until Dade
County government decides to do something about it or not. I realize that
and I understand it. What I would like at this time is to request from you
that before the final steps are taken that the Commission appoint someone to
discuss the situation with Dade County Government to see how far they have
come into this situation and if you feel that it is appropriate that only one
Health Facilities Authority exist in Dade County instead of having maybe, 5,
6 or 7 depending on each city.
Mayor Ferre: Well, you've got me confused. Are you recommending that we
create a City of Miami Health Facilities Authority? You're here recommending
it aren't you?
Mr. Verdejas: We11, we're recommending the philosophy of it, yes.
Mayor Ferre: You think that it would be good for the City of Miami to have
a Health Authority, all right.
Mx. Verdejas: To have a Health Facilities Authority, but we're saying that
instead of the City of Miami being the one that creates the Health Facilities
Authority we should have only one Health Facilities Authority which will be
done through Dade County Government.
Mayor Ferre: Well then you're contradicting yourself now. We have a resolu-
tion here before us and the title of it reads as follows: "A resolution find-
ing and declaring a need for a Health Facilities Authority within the City of
Miami and establishing an Authority as ...., further providing for the appoint-
ment of five persons who are residents of the City to serve staggered terms
on such an authority." Now, my question simply is are you for or against our
passing this resolution?
Mr. Verdejas: Well, I'm against passing the resolution.
Mayor Ferre: Well then what are you doing here?
Mr. Plummer: For my edification, your name again, sir?
Mr. Verdejas: Octavio Verdejas.
Mr. Plummer: Well, who is Herbert E. Long, is he here?
Mr. Grassie: I wonder if I could help the City Commission in this way, Mr.
Mayor and members of the City Commission? Mr. Long will tell you and possibly
we should....
Mayor Ferre: Mr. Long? That's not Mr. Long.
96
FEB 2 2 1979
Mr. Grassie: I'm sorry, in representation of Mr. Long who is here in the
audience, we have three Miami hospitals who are advocating this. It is
not the County agency. The County agency is not in favor of this proposal,
three Miami hospitals are in favor of this proposal.
Mayor Ferre: A11 right, let's start over again. We'll come back to you.
Don, tell us who you are mild what you want.
Mr. Donald S. Rosenberg: Mayor ?erre and members of the Commission, my name
is Donald S. Rosenberg, I'm a member of the Miami firm of Rosenberg....
I represent Mercy Hospital, Cedars of Lebanon Hospital and Victoria Hospital
and have been asked for the sake of making a presentation
Mr. Plummer: If you don't speak louder you're not going to be representing
anybody.
Mr. Rosenberg: For the sake of making this matter brief and clear to you,
the hospitals asked me to speak on behalf of all of them. Perhaps we started
on the wrong foot, mainly hearing someone who may have an objection to this
particular procedure.
Mrs. Gordon: Don, let me say that it is not to say an objection at this point
but to say delay this action until the Dade County Commission has had an oppor-
tunity to act upon a County -wide ordinance, that's what it was.
Mr. Rosenberg: I recognize that but I think there are very valid reasons and
a background and history relating to this matter that the Commission should
be aware of. Based upon which the Commission should act now and act upon its
own and I also think that the Commission has three hospitals within its juris-
diction of substantial size having some very special interests. We cannot
afford to wait any longer while the County determines whether it will or will
not take action. Now what I'd like to do, and I'll just do this very briefly,
is to alert you of the following things: The three hospitals for whom I am
speaking are all voluntary non-profit acute care hospitals all located in your
jurisdiction. As to the magnitude of their operations, they've got budgets
that total $89,000,000, they operate 1,330 hospital beds and have somewhere
in the neighborhood of 3,400 employees. The purpose of organizing a Health
Facilities Authority is to make available at no cost to the City, at no pledge
by the City of any of its revenues or of its assetts a source through which
taxable interest bearing obligations can be converted to non-taxable interest
bearing obligations, the net result of which is a savings in interest to these
three hospitals. These three hospitals alone represent $105,000,000 worth of
re -financing.
Mrs. Gordon: What do you figure the cost saving factor will be?
Mr. Rosenberg: The cost saving factor between the three hospitals will be any-
where from a million three to a million five hundred thousand dollars the first
year and will be substantial thereafter although it will be slightly reducing
from year to year.
Mr. Plummer: This is on a refinancing plan?
Mrs. Gordon: Yes.
Mr. Rosenberg: These three hospitals are involved in refinancing. The real
problem with the HSA, what they're concerned about, is the proliferation of
other hospitals and new construction. I will tell you that under the Florida
Health Facilities Act new construction is going to require a certificate of
need that is going to have to go back to the Health Systems Agency. However,
for refinancing which is what these three major hospitals are involved in it
would not require that. These hospitals are in a position where they can pro-
ceed now, they can deal with City representatives, from the County's standpoint
they were first asked to consider this matter in March of 1977 and that was
a request by Mercy Hospital. I have copies of correspondence that shows that
they have....
Mayor Ferre: Don, I think we can cut right through that because I'm beginning
to see what this is all about. If we pass this today - this is a resolution -
from here I would imagine it would have to go to become an ordinance, is that
correct?
Mr. Grassie: No, in this case it would not be correct, Mr. Mayor, under the
State law it is the opinion of the City Attorney that we can do it through
resolution.
97
FEE :' 1979
Mrs. Gordon: Can you set up an authority without an ordinance?
Mr. Grassie: There is specific state statute, well I shouldn't speak to the
law, but there is a specific state statute as I understand it that makes this
possible.
Mayor Ferre: Well then don't, we can ask the Attorney.
Mr. Jose Alvarez: On the face of the resolution, Mr. Mayor, is the author-
ity as enacted by the State Legislature which enables the City to by resolu-
tion accomplish this.
Mayor Ferre: All right, thank you. Now Don, let me see if I understand
this correctly. Metropolitan Dade County has been horsing around - let's
call it the way it is - and going back and forth and gerrymandering and hem-
ming and hawing and not getting it done. In the meantime there are three
hospitals that want to refinance and they're not able to proceed so they
appeal and put it right on the line that the City of Miami who has a history
of moving quicker and being a little bit more effective and listening a
little more to what's going on in the local community should proceed to do
this. You've discussed it with the Manager and you agree, is that correct?
Mr. Grassie: That's correct, sir.
Mayor FerrE: Octavio, I'm sorry.
Mrs. Gor::or.: Mr. Mayor, may I ask some questions right on target, I'm sure?
Since there will be a cost saving factor of a million three or a million five
how is the consumer going to benefit?
Mr. Rosenberg: The consumer benefits in the following way, Mrs. Gordon:
(1) Is that the cost of salaries and the cost of equipment, the cost of
other aspects of providing the health care services is like everything else
a constantly rising complaint. That means in order to meet those continuing
costs tr,at these hospitals from time to time must increase their charges.
By saving them an interest expense which they are already obliged to pay
you in effect achieve a cost containment because they have automatically
available funds with which to absorb certain of these increased costs and,
therefore, not increase charges until some future date. The net affect is
a postponement of any possible cost increases and possibly an effective re-
duction in some instances of the actual health care delivery from time to
time. So it is distinctly advantageous, and you are dealing with non-profit
institutions that are in....
Rev. Gibson: May I ask a question?
Mr. Rosenberg: Yes, sir.
Rev. Gibson: What you're wanting us to do doesn't affect the County does
it?
Mr. Rosenberg: No, sir. Under the Florida State Law the authorization to
organize an authority was granted very specifically to the Counties and to
the Cities. It was contemplated that there might be action by both. If
you consider this fact, in the City you only have a limited number of hos-
pitals to deel with, in the County you have a substnatial additional number
of hospitals. We don't know when the County will take action, furthermore,
we don't know when the County if it took action will consider the case of
Mercy, Victoria, Cedars or any other hospitals in your jurisdiction that's
eligible.
Rev. Gibson: You made a point, I got you.
Mrs. Gordon: You know, there's more to it than meets the eye, Octavio, I
think you ought to speak to this and perhaps Mr. Rice also. Now it is appro-
priate to bring out the other side.
Mr. Verdejas: Let me state first at we're not concerned with the prolifer-
ation of hospitals, new hospitals. I think that the way it has happened in
the past we know as the Board of Directors of the Health Systems Agency if
anybody wants to come for a new hospital it is going to be very difficult
to pass it through and with a Certificate of Need it is not going to be easy.
Our concern at this point....
98
Ff R `_' 2 1979
Mayor Ferre: That's not before us though.
Mr. Verdejas: Yes, I know, but he stated that that was agency's concern.
Our concern is that the proliferation of Health Facilities Authorities in Dade
County, meaning that each City in Dade County would end up maybe having one
and we felt that it was better to have only one Health Facilities Authority
instead of having....
Mayor Ferre: I don't understand what you're saying. We don't have any
authority of deciding who builds hospitals and who doesn't - you do.
Mr. Verdejas: Mayor, my concern is that if every city within Dade County
established a Health Facilities Authority we might end up with ten or what-
ever the number happens to be and we felt that it was more appropriate to
have just one Health Facilities Authority in Dade County that took care of
everyone. We are in favor of the idea, in fact, we discussed the idea and
we approved it it's just that we felt that it was better to have just one
and not every city in Dade County have one, that's all.
Mayor Ferre: How long has this been before Metropolitan Dade County?
Mr. Verdejas: The Board approved it in November so it was before them in
the first days of December.
Mrs. Gordon: They are presently in the posture of including into the ordin-
ance additional factors that have come up and I would suggest, Mr. Mayor,
that we just delay this for 30 days and if they don't act within that perio3
of time then that's it. But for us to take an action now, I know Mr. Grassie
is making a face because he doesn't like the idea that perhaps we're going
to delay for thirty days but I'm going to tell you something, you're setting
a precedent here and now of another case of duplication and proliferation
when it's not necessary. There is always additional costs when you have
fragmented authorities or a fragmented anything and we have an opportunity
here and now to begin cost containment for hospitals as well as for health
care, we should at least begin by not rushing into this right now. Let's
see if the County makes their ordinance within the next 30 days and if
they don't well, we can take it up then.
Mayor Ferre: Rose, would you say that that's a valid argument for the Police
Department too?
Mrs. Gordon: Your Police Department is in place, you are now talking about
something that is not in place and this City has no record of being at all
concerned in health care, we have never even wanted to venture into social
services let alone health care so we are out of our water, we're in deep
water, we're beyond our depth, we have no right to begin in my opinion. The
law was written for different counties where they do not have a home rule
the way we do in Dade County and here in County we don't need municipal
authorities.
Mayor Ferre: Well, but see, let me tell you my opinion on that. I don't
know anything about the hospital world and the hospital business and I re-
spect the fact that you're on the Health Trust but if I could take back the
Housing Authority of the City of Miami I'll tell you I wouldn't hesitate one
second because I don't think the people of Miami are getting anywhere near
their fair share of housing.
Mr. Plummer: How about Water and Sewer.
Mayor Ferre: And I'll tell you, I regret the day that we got literally
pushed and pushed and pushed out of the Water and Sewer business when we
had a facility that was worth a half a million dollars and was doing a very
good job for the City.
Mx. Plummer: Half a billion.
Mayor Ferre: Half a billion, S500,000,000 and we gave it away for nothing.
And I'll tell you I think it is a new day around this community and I feel
that if Mercy Hospital and Cedars of Lebanon and Victoria Hospital who are
the hospitals of our jurisdiction think that they need this kind of a vehicle
that this will be helpful to them and the Manager has looked at it and the
staff recommends it I'm ready to vote for it.
Mrs. Gordon: Maurice, you know you said a little while ago, not more than
an hour ago that you disliked authorities - "If you could abolish the
on
F _ '
IF
Downtown Development Au:ority you would do it, the same admit with the Off -
Street Parking Authority you would do it." wow, you know you're really not
being consistent.
Mayor Ferrer 'MO, I'm being consistent because this is a completely different
matter.
Mrs. Gordon: It's still an authority.
Mayor Ferrer Well let me tell you, this is a matter that is established by
the State of Florida that's why I asked the Law Department, and what makes
this different is Chapter 74-323 of the Laws of Florida which specifically
speaks to this. And the fact is that it is not a question of whether I want
to create another authority or don't want to create another authority. I
don't like authorities but the State of Florida says that hospitals in speci-
fic jurisdictions are going to be operated within certain areas in this way
and the question is are we going to do it or are we going to let Metropolitan
Dade County do it? As tar as I'm concerned I don't have much of a problem on
that.
Mrs. Gordon: But the law says that it should be the County or it could be a
municipality but that deals with areas where counties are organized as the
county is here prepared to deal in the total aspect of a health care field.
Dade County is heavily into health care, they're into it in Jackson, they're
into it in t`.c Public Health Trust and they're into it in the Public Health
Service, they're into it in many areas. We're not into it at all.
Rev. Mr. Mayor, I just want to make this comment. I don't like to
hear us bay that we, the City of Miami, have never been interested in health
care.
Mrs. Gordon: No, I said into it.
Rev. Gi.b_x.. Well, ....
!u•s. Gor. ..: We're not delivering it.
Re.'. G.bsor.: Well earlier, let's think. What you now have in the County, I
could speak as a native, we have it to the County. That's one of the other
goodies we gave away just like the County is doing, the way they're doing get-
ting money, that's the way we could have done it. I'm not arguing one way or
the other I just don't want nobody talking about my City that way. I'm going
to be the advocate of my City every time you talk. Let's make sure that's
put right. It used to Miami Jackson or Jackson Hospital belonged to the City
of Miami.
Mayor Ferre: Let me tell you something else, Father, if the City fathers in
the past of this City had not turned over Jackson Memorial Hospital, the air-
port, the seaport, the Water and Sewer Authority, the library and the other
things that we've turned over we wouldn't have the kind of problems that we
have in this community now.
Rev. Gibson: Right.
Mayor Ferre: And you know we go around blaming the Miami Herald and the
Chamber of Commerce and everybody else for pushing Metro on us and we, the
City of Miami are the ones that have been gradually giving the City of Miami
Tway. Mow this, as Attorney Alvarez just told me, the fact is that we're not
giving any authority away this is something, this is different from the others
because we don't at this present time have this authority so what we're in
effect doing is claiming something that the state partite us to have which
certainly strengthens the structure of the City of Miami.
Mr. Plummer: Let me ask a question, Don, if I may. If I'm not mistaken, the
only reason that you're creating this board or hoping to create this board
is for the purposes of refinancing?
Mr. Rosenberg: With respect to the three hospitals that are the saving part-
ies that is accurate.
Mr. Plummer: well please, mow you know in fairness, this Commission has al-
ways dealt in fairness that if, in fact, someone else were to get into the
same position and they're in the City of Miami we surely could not deny them.
F r' 1379
Mr. Rosenberg: Quite the contrary, we think that every institution that falls
under the classification of being eligible to participate in this program that
falls within the City of Miami is benefited by having the possible availability.
All I meant was that for the three institutions that I'm speaking for is that
in their instance it is a refinancing, it is real and it's now. The others
have the same thing within the City but they don't have to compete with poss-
ibly Baptist or Sinai or Jackson who doesn't need this Authority worth a darn.
Jackson already got the benefit of tax exempt County revenue use.
Mr. Plummer: The point I'm trying to make very simply is, if I understand
your request, because we are precluded from the rest that the only reason that
you are asking for this Board to be created is for the purposes under the State
Statutes of refinancing. Is that a correct statement?
Mr. Rosenberg: No.
Mr. Plummer: Well, tell me where it is not.
Mr. Rosenberg: I want the City to create the Board with the full scope, power
and authority that the State Statutes grant to such authorities but I am tell-
ing you that with respect to the three moving institutions their concern with
that particular authority will be refinancing.
Mrs. Gordon: What he is telling you, J. L., is that there are other broader
possibilities that come about under that law and by virtue of that authority
when it's created, is that correct, Don?
Mr. Rosenberg: Yes, but is is within the limitations that the State Statutes
set up so that if it were to be new construction, even if it were to be of
something within the City of Miami, if it were to get the benefit of the use
of the facilities of this authority which again, are no cost to the City, then
new facilities have to go back with Certificate of Need. So, the only ones
who can proceed under the authority without going through that kind of a pro-
cedure would be those who have a pure refinancing aspect involved.
Mrs. Gordon: Also, it is very likely and very possible that some obsolete
facility could logically rebuild itself without having to go through the
mechanics of...
Mr. Rosenberg: That's not true, that is not true, that cannot happen without
the Health Systems Agency's approval.
Mrs. Gordon: George, can you speak to that?
Mr. Verdejas: Rose, the only way it would be... it would have to be an
existing facility.
Mrs. Gordon: I said some obsolete existing facility could logically, you
know, rebuild itself..what is that place out there that was for hospital at
one time and that it's been turned... I can't think of the name of it...
Mr. Rosenberg: Rose, it would have to be something that is now licensed,
approved as an operating entity. You couldn't go out and get a new license,
for example, for an existing facility of some kind without going back to
the Health Systems Agency.
Mrs. Gordon: Don, all I'm asking and all I'm asking you Maurice, is just a
30-day delay, I mean nothing drastic is going to happen in 30 days. Is the
world going to come to an end?
Mr. Lacasa: The question to me here is not the reasons why this gentlemen
brought this up to our attention, the question to me is that I welcome the
fact that he did bring this to our attention because this is a matter that
will, in my view, strengthen the City of Miami to have this authority. Since
I came to this Commission a month ago, my top priority has been the strengthen-
ing of the City of Miami which has been throughout the years weakening by the
fact that we have given services and authorities away. So now, here we have
not only the possibility but the responsibility to assume certain more respon-
sibilities towards the citizens of the City of Miami by virtue of creating
this authority in an area which is essential and I do believe that it will be
in the best interest of the City to create this authority without waiting for
the 30 days because the question here is not what other people will do, the
question is what we need to do in order to strengthen this City and this
Commission.
101
FEB 2 2 1979
Mrs. Gordon: Our major obligation is to save taxpayers' money, that's our
major obligation, not to build a power base, not to strengthen ourselves, but
to save the taxpayers' money and that is what we will be not doing by the
proliferation of authorities. We are going to have an overlapping of jurisdic-
tions, we are going to have an overlapping of services and it is not necessary
when you can have one entity to have 25, 26 or 27, which is a possibility
because you have so many municipalities in the county to deal with.
Mr. Lacasa: The question here is not the creation of a power base, the ques-
tion here is the strengthening of this City's authority to discharge its
responsibilities towards the citizens that live and pay taxes in the City of
Miami. Now, you have raised a question, here what we are doing is appointing
a 5-member committee ..Mr. Manager, do these committee members have any salary?
Mr. Grassie: No, they don't.
Mr. Lacasa: Okay, that's enough for me.
Mrs. Gordon: What did you say? What was your question?
Mr. Lacasa: You were talking about what expenses will we incurr, the 5 members
of this Board will not have a salary so I don't see the expenses.
Mrs. Gordon: They don't get money, no, of course not, there are other factors
that will cost money. there is a back-up that an authority will have to have
there is money that has to be spent to keep it in business.
Mr. Grassie: None of those costs are incurred by the City, Commissioner.
Mr. Rosenberg: That's not accurate.
Mrs. Gordon: It will come out of the revenue bonding is what you are saying.
Mr. Rosenberg: Exactly.
Mrs. Gordon: That's still a cost, these are dollars being spent and the more
multiplication of those...
Mayor Ferre: Let me tell you what Rose,..and other members of the Commission
what my problem is. Every time I look to the record to see what is going on
we are getting the people of Miami...368,000 that live in Miami, are getting
the shorter end of the stick every day, more and more. For example, we went
and got a $600 million bond issue called the Decade of Progress. Do you know
what the City of Miami people are getting for that?..Zipp! Some monies are
being spent for Vizcaya and they say that's what we've got in the City of
Miami, in the meantime they are spending your money in Rickenbacker Causeway
and my money, all right, to put part of the South, part in the county, and
the north part of the county, and you and I have got to pay 23% of it and we
get nothing in return. Now, let me give you another example, we turn over the
Water 6 Sewer Board, right?
Rev. Gibson: Right.
Mayor Ferre: Now, we are Water 6 Sewer. Why? because over the past 50 years,
the people, you and I, have been paying taxes to Water 6 Sewer, and that's been
Water 6 Sewer but the new developments down in.south Dade County they don't
have Water 6 Sewer, so as these things grow out there they've got to put in
new sewer lines. Now, who do you think is paying for that?
Rev. Gibson: All of us.
Mayor Ferre: Now, if the people of Miami have already paid for to Water 6
Sewer lines, and if we've already turned over Water 6 Sewer Board which costs
$500 million don't you think that the least that these people could say is,
hey, you've paid your dues now it is somebody else's turn to pay theirs.
That's not the way it works. No, sir, and do you know what the end result is?
The end result is this. The City of Miami...I've been here 10 years. When
I came here to serve on this Commission, it was 1.7 billion dollars. That's
what everything was worth, all the commercial buildings and the houses and
everything else. We've doubled, we are now to 3 billion. Do you know what
Metro has done it has gone from 7 to 21, it's tripled. Do you know why?
Because those people over there at the Courthouse and everybody that's in-
volved, the Health Trust...not the Health Trust, excuse me, everything that
is involved where Metropolitan Dade County is....spend the money out there,
do this out there, build the roads out there, put the facilities out there,
build the parks out there, tax us but build them out there, and that's why the
r.G2
FEB 2 2 1979
core area is weak, and that's why we don't have any strength, and I think
it is long overdue for us to start to reverse that.
Mrs. Gordon: Mr. Mayor, may I ask Mr. Rosenberg a question? May I ask
a question, please, sir? ...Did you want to say something, Octavio? Go
ahead.
Mr. Verdejas: The way we are looking at this, we are not looking at the
City of Miami or Dade County. We felt --I realize that-- and that's the reason
I said at the very beginning that I wanted to bring it for your consideration
because I realize that you cannot give away your responsibility, I'm just
feeling...if you people feel that it is reasonable to do that, fine, if you
feel that it is not reasonable, that's it.
Mrs. Gordon: Well, could I ask you since the hospitals will be saving some-
where around $1.5 million and since, in my opinion, this is a very worthwhile
thing to do to save money, especially from interest costs, would you...I
imagine that you could write into the rules somewhere that these same hospitals
would donate a part of their savings to the charity people who cannot afford
the hospital bills that are being given to them today.
Mr. Rosenberg: Rose, let me...
Mrs. Gordon: I know the county sends them all to Jackson but how many of them
do you pick up in your three hospitals.
Mr. Rosenberg: Rose, let me give you an answer that I know of personally. I
also happen to be Chairman of the Board of Cedars of Lebanon Hospital, so my
interest in being before you is not simply as an attorney speaking for someone
else's cause but as a responsible ci'!zen of the community who has been working
also at no cost to try and accomplish something in this community. By a
contract with Dade County, Cedars of Lebanon Hospital, for example, in ad-
dition to any other charity work that it has, is giving their Public Health
Trust 2,003 patient care days at a cost to this hospital somewhere in the
neighborhood of anywhere from $500,000 to $750,000 per annum not counting
pL:.sicians' fees which are being kicked in for nothing by our physicians.
Mrs. Gordon: That's good.
Mayor Ferre: Don, I don't mean to be rude to you but we took this out of turn
and, you know, because you...Earnie..you've got 20 seconds, all right.
Mr. Ernie Fannoto: Ernie Fannoto is my name and I am President of the Tax-
payers' League of Miami and Dade County. I hear all the time that people
are complaining about high hospital bills. Now you've got a chance to help.
three non-profit --now, these are non-profit-- hospitals who do a lot of
good, they are top flight hospitals and I think you should do it, and let
me just say something about Metro and the City of Miami. It is about time
you people did something for Miami businesses and hospitals instead of
let Metro do the job.
Mayor Ferre: Okay, we've missed you, where have you been? All right.
Mr. Rosenberg: Mayor, thank you for your taking me out of turn.
Mayor Ferre: Thank you. All right, what is the will of this Commission?
Mr. Lacasa: I'd like to make a motion, Mr. Mayor, I'd like to move that
this Resolution finding and declaring a need for a Health Facility Authority
in the City of Miami and establishing such an authority be approved.
Rev. Gibson: Mr. Mayor, I am going to second that motion in view of the
fact of what you said about the contribution you make to the Health System
and I hope you know that you won't cut that off after you get your thing,
not only you, all the others, I want to make sure we have a partnership in
this community.
Mrs. Gordon: That's what it's been contributing, now you think, it's going
to contribute more
Rev. Gibson: Well we hope we are going to get even more, and I'll second the
motion.
103
FEB 2 ° i9►9
mayor Ferre: A11 right, Plummer, under discussion, you had some questions.
Mr. Plummer: Yes, Mr. Mayor, I am not opposed to, and I want to put it on
the record, of creating a vehicle, whatever that vehicle be, for the place of
my birth, as C. T. McCrimon knows, the place of my daughter's birth which
Donald doesn't know, for Mercy Hospital, which is my neighbor, I want to put
that on the record. If I can help you people financially get over the hurdle
fine, I'm all in favor of it, you are Miami institutions and I'm proud of my
heritage, but my problem was in a question which I asked you previously which
is not delineated here. It is the things that are not being said that are
going to force my "no" vote. That vote being that it was my understanding from
the reading of this letter signed by Mr. Long,..or signed by the three of the
hospitals that the sole purpose of this creation was for refinancing, all right?
You say no. You say that it is for the purposes of all of the latitudes that the
Board is given by the State of Florida and I don't know what those latitudes are.
Mr. Rosenberg: They are set forth in the State law.
Mr. Plummer: But I don't have them sir. Okay? And I'm telling you...
Mayor Ferre: Yes, but the actual effect, Don, let's aay..you know and Octavio
knows that any expansion, any groth, any new hospital beds, they've got it
approved.
Mr. Plummer: Mr. Mayor, but what else is within the authority of this created
Miami Board to approve. I don't know and it's not spelled out. What is the
latitutee of the State statute?
Mr. Lacasa: But that shouldn't concern us at this point because, J.L., the
question is this, we are creating an authority which could act under the laws
of the State of Florida, but the thing is ...
Mr. Plummer: But I might not want them to fully act.
Mr. Lacasa: ..but the thing is the stronger that authority is, the stronger
the City of 'iami will be. The question here is not what the purpose of this
gentleman is, the private purpose of this gentleman is, the question is that
we have the possibility under the laws of the State of Florida to serve our
community..
Mrs. Gordon: You have an authority, there is the question.
Mayor Ferre: All right, Octavio.
Mr. Verdejas: There is a problem, for your peace of mind, the HSA is in favor
of establishing the Health Facilities Authority. The South Florida Hospital
Association brought it to us before the Committee. We feel that it is an
excellent idea. Okay? We endorse it.
Mr. Plummer: You endorse what?
Mrs. Gordon: The concept of authority.
Mr. Verdejas: The concept of a Health Facilities Authority.
Mrs. Gordon: No.
Mr. Verdeajs: No, the concept of the Health Facilities Authority, period.
Mayor Ferre: The question is...
Mr. Verdejas: The question...my point is exclusively, I'm in favor of the Health
Facilities Authority. The Health Systems Agency is in favor of it. I'm not con-
cerned or worried about structure. I think we will stop that in the Health
Systems Agency. My only concern which is very dear to you and I understand it very
well -should Dade County or the City of Miami do it? I say that for the benefit
of the community it should be Dade County, I think it'd be..you know, we are
planning and the local health plan that is being done is Dade County -wide not
City of Miami -wide and that's the reason I say that it should be done by Dade
County. That's the only point in question.
Mr. Plummer: Then my immediate question is, sir, to you if you have had this
opportunity and you are speaking for Dade County or that which created you why
haven't you done it?
n
FE.. 2 2 1979
Mr. Verdejas: Our agency does not have the authority to pursue it, we
suggested to Dade County that they do it
Mr. Plummer: How long ago?
Mr. Verdejas: December of 1978. Two months ago..
Mrs. Gordon: That on weekends.
Mr. Verdejas: The Board approved it on November and the letter was sent the
first...
Mayor Ferre: Well, now, Mr. Logan you are shaking your head...
Mr. Rosenberg: The reason he is shaking his head is very simply. Going back
into March of 1977 your citizen, Mercy Hospital, directly asked the county
in a letter to Stierheim to consider organizing and organize this particular
facility.
Mrs. Gordon: Was it law then?
Mr. Restin1im It wt,, law, yes Ma'am, it was, and we are sitting here a year
and a half later and the county hasn't acted and you have no guarantee that
they wi ., a:; based upon the Health Systems Agency's words, furthermore, all
they are contemplating doing in organizing that authority is the very same thing
we have asked you to do but our City facilities will get a shot to get their
purposes ?ccomplished rather than get in line.
Mayor Ferre: Don, you just got me, I'll tell you, you had me before but you
got -- now, and I'll tell you why. You know, big doesn't mean better
and I it is time that we learn from the experience of New York City
when al_ tr,e boroughs back at the turn of the centur Y, they took all the boroughs
and wined ten all out and Queen, and Brooklyn and the Bronx didn't exist any-
more ar.G t..e, were all put together in one thing and you have an absolute mess
now. I am L. firm believer in two-tier forms of government, Mr. Grassie, this fits
I think within the concept of two-tier form of government, you studied it, I
under=ta.-d tis has your recommendation, and that think we are not committing
a mistake in this, is that correct?
Mr. Grassie: That's correct, Mayor.
Mrs. Gordon: What did you ask him, Maurice?
Mayor Ferre: If this has his recommendation, and if we are not making a mistake.
Mr. Plummer: Mr. Mayor, I offer a substitute motion.
Mayor Ferre: All right, Mr. Plummer for the substitute motion.
Mr. Plummer: I offer a substitute motion that this item be deferred until
March 8th, at which time the City Attorney can forward to me a copy of that
as listed, the Health Facilities Authority, and pursuant to Chapter 74-323
Laws of Florida Acts of 1974, Chapter 154 of Florida Statutes, Part III, as
amended.
Mrs. Gordon: Second.
Mayor Ferre: A11 right, there is a motion and a second on the substitute motion
to defer, further discussion...
Mrs. Gordon: I think you should forward it to all the Commissioners...
Mr. Plummer: The purpose for that Mr. Mayor, is to find out what other latitude
this authority would have besides the refinancing.
Mayor Ferre: All right, under discussion, Mr. Grassie, have you looked at this
statute or the Administration?
Mr. Grassie: No, one of my staff members, Jim Gunderson, has looked at it very
carefully, Mr. Mayor.
Mayor Ferre:
Is Mr. Gunderson here? Mr. Gunderson would you step forward?
105
F:; ??
Mayor Ferre: We heard from Mr. Verdejas that he has no problems with the
philosophical concept of the creation of this, there is nothing wrong with
it, it's just a question of what jurisdiction, who is going to have the
jurisdiction. Now, you looked at it and you tell us what your opinion is.
Mr. Gunderson: It doesn't give any expansive powers to do other than what
the gentleman over here has already indicated, Mr. Rosenberg. He has already
indicated the thrust of the whole statute is refinancing.
Mayor Ferre: All right, that's on the record, further discussion.
Mr. Plummer: Whoa, Whoa...now you know that is not what I heard that man
say.
Mr. Rosenberg: No, J. L.,...
Mr. Plummer: I asked him a pointed question and his answer was -Yes, as it
is related to those three institutions that he was here representing but they
wanted that authority to have the full latitude of whatever the statutes provided.
Now,...
Mr. Rosenberg: The reason for that was because you would...
Mr. Plummer: Excuse, wasn't that your answer?
Mr. Rosenberg: Yes, but you are misinterpreting something. The reason I answered
you that way is because I think it would be a mistake for the City of Miami to
c:garizv ar authority and place a limitation upon it which is unnecessary. There
will not be any new construction or rehabilitation or anyhting else financed under
that unless the Health Systems Agency has issued a Certificate of Need and approved
it in which event there is the possibility of financing, it is a financing act.
All this authority ever does is issue bonds against which it will pledge revenues
derived from the particular entities. It will never spend one nickel of its money,
nor pledge one asset, and if you don't vote for this I think that you are remissing
the d:at`es that you owe to the citizens and the institutions of this City.
Mr. Plumncr: Don, I'm trying to find a way to vote for it.
Mayor Ferre: Wait a minute, wait a minute, Don,...Mr. Gunderson -and I'll re-
cognize you in a second J.L.- Mr. Gunderson, you heard what Mr. Rosenberg said,
do you concur, in the record.
Mr. Gunderson: Yes.
Mr. Gunderson: On the record, okay, now we have somebody who wanted to say
something.
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Mr. Mayor, Commissioner, I am somewhat appalled by...
Mr. Ongie: Your name and address for the record, please.
Mr. Joel Jaffer: Joel Jaffer, 3268 Mary Street. I am appalled by the grief
that the Board of Directors of these hospitals and somewhat scared by your love
of absurdity and I'm...I think you are filibustering some other more pertinent
issues that people have been waiting around for for quite a while.
Mayor Ferre: All right, thank you very much for your statement.
Mr. Jaffer: Well, let me expalin that, as a Board of Directors from non-
profit hospitals from what I understand these people are personally liable
for any debts or suits that the hospitals may pick up along the way and so
what I think they are doing is putting that burden upon the City and I might
add that as part of the Public Trust they are helping to put some other in-
dependent organization.
Mayor Ferre: Thank you very much for your statement. All right, any further
discussion on this, there is a motion now -I don't think you need..anybody
needs to respond to that- there is a motion and second that this item be
deferred. J.L.; any further...?
Mr. Plummer: I just feel that I must have the opportunity to read the statutes
and...
Mayor Ferre: Further discussion...
106 FEB 221979
4
Mr. George Rice: I'm George Rice, with the Health Systems Agency, and there
is one difference we have asked the county to do that has been in your ordinance
and that is to have a reviewing -comment mechanism in your ordinance from the
Health Systems Agency, even on the refinance.
Mayor Ferre: Mr. Rice we welcome any input from you and if you would submit
that I personally would pledge to you, on the record here, that I would be
happy to introduce that as part of the...and we would amend this Resolution
should it pass.
Mr. Rice: And you understand from Octavio that our official policy is to have
the county encompass an overall Regional Program rather than...
Mayor Ferre: I understand, let me tell you about the county, see...
Mr. Rice: We are with you in terms of the concept, oh, oh...
Mr. Plummer: There went my 8:00 o'clock.
Mrs. Gordon: George, you are going to be sorry.
Mayor Ferre: Let me tell you about the county, Mr. Rice, Plummer had it in
his mind about 4 to 5 years ago that he was going to do something about all of
these blood banks, okay?, and I kept going to the county because they had the
responsibility and the authority and what have you and I have never gotten such
a run-around, we kept going around, and around and around, and around, and I
went to see Dr. So and So and the other doctor, what was the name of that man...?
Wonderful man but he never did anything!, and I kept coming back and saying
look, can the City do this? And they kept saying, well no, the county has the
jurisdiction and we've got to that. You know, to this day it still is something,
that...I'm sorry, I am not a believer in big government, and the more I am in it
the longer I realize that smaller units are much more effective and I'm ready
to vote.
Mr. Rosenberg: Mayor Ferre, can I make one last comment.
Mayor Ferre: Please.
Mr. Rosenberg: I think that the introduction of any aspect of the Health Systems
Agency with respect to anything that would effect pure refinancing is simply an
attempt to extend the Health Systems Agency's influence in an area that it has
absolutely no business in.
Mayor Ferre: Okay, well, that is something that we can discuss later on.
We are not going to get into tht one today...
Mrs. Gordon: Oh, no...
Mayor Ferre: We are not going to get into that one today
Mrs. Gordon: That was a low curve, Don.
Mayor Ferre: That was a strong statement.
Mr. Plummer: How did we ever get Ferre's explanation of Metro in less than
five hours?
Mayor Ferre: Come on, let's vote on it, is there anybody else who wants to
say anything. This is on the move to defer.to March 8th.
THEREUPON THE FOREGOING motion to have this item deferred
to the March 8th meeting failed with the following vote:
AYES: Vice Mayor J. L. Plummer, Jr.*
Commissioner Rose Gordon
NOES: Commissioner Armando Lacasa
Commissioner (Rev.) Theodore R. Gibson
Mayor Maurice A. Ferre
ABSENT: None.
ON ROLL CALL:
*Mr. Plummer: For the specified purpose, I vote yes.
107
FEB .: 1:73
Mayor Ferre: Now, on the main motion. Is there further discussion on the
main motion?, and let the record reflect to Mr. Rice that I stipulated that
any input that you'd want I'd be happy to submit for discussion here.
Mrs. Gordon: The words he wished included were "reviewing comment by the
RSA" if you want to put that in the motion.
Mayor Ferre: That's fine, you know, I realize that you don't like that but
that's something that we...you come with that recommendation and I promise
you it will be discussed and brought up and voted upon, and if the majority of
this Commission wants to put it in, we'll do. All right, now on the main mo-
tion, further discussion.
Mrs. Gordon: Is the reviewing comment in the main motion?
Mayor Ferre: No Ma'am, the reviewing comment is not in the main motion. I
told Mr. Rice, and this is the third time now, that he can bring back any re-
commendations and I promise him that any time it will be brought up and dis-
cussed and, you know, we'll have an open forum here on it. Further discussion.
The following resolution was introduced by Commissioner Lacasa, who moved
its adoption:
RESOLUTION NO. 79-93
A RESOLUTION FINDING AND DECLARING A NEED FOR A HEALTH FACILITIES
AUTHORITY WITHIN THE CITY OF MIAMI, AND ESTABLISHING SUCH AN AUTHORI-
TY AS A PUBLIC INSTRUMENTALITY UNDER THE PROVISIONS OF CHAPTER 74-
323, LAWS OF FLORIDA, TO BE KNOWN AS THE "CITY OF MIAMI, FLORIDA,
HEALTH FACILITIES AUTHORITY"; FURTHER PROVIDING FOR THE APPOINTMENT
OF 5 PERSONS WHO MUST BE RESIDENTS OF THE CITY TO SERVE STAGGERED
TERMS ON SUCH AUTHORITY.
(Here follows body of resolution, omitted here and on file
in the Office of the City Clerk).
Upon being seconded by Commissioner Gibson, the resolution was
passed and adopted by the following vote:
AYES: Commissioner Armando Lacasa
Commissioner (Rev.) Thedore R. Gibson
Mayor Maurice A. Ferre*
NOES: Commissioner Rose Gordon
Vice Mayor J. L. Plummer, Jr*
ABSENT: None.
CN ROLL CALL:
*M:. Plummer: Based upon the fact that the statutes have not been presented
to me for my scrutinity I refuse to vote affirmatively on anything that I don't
know what I'm voting on, I must unfortunately vote "no."
*Mayor Maurice Ferre: Based on the statements made on the public record by
Mr. Rosenberg and by Mr. Gunderson, based on a positive recommendation of the
Manager, based on all the things that we have discussed here today I have no
hesitation on voting "yes."
Mr. Rosenberg: Thank you very much.
Mrs. Gordon: Mr. Mayor, did that call for appointments to be made at this time
or some other time.
Mayor Ferre: Rose, I'll do it any way you want. I have no intentions of making
the appointments today and there is no point...Listen, I want to state it on the
record so that there is no..I have not discussed this with anybody, I didn't know
anything more about it than what I read and heard today and this is the very first
time that this matter has been discussed with me so, you know, I have no intentions
of anything other than what has been said.
Mr. Rosenberg: Thank you very much.
108
FE3 ?2 1979
•
Mr. George Rice: I'm George Rice, with the Health Systems Agency, and there
is one difference we have asked the county to do that has been in your ordinance
and that is to have a reviewing -comment mechanism in your ordinance from the
Health Systems Agency, even on the refinance.
Mayor Ferre: Mr. Rice we welcome any input from you and if you would submit
that I personally would pledge to you, on the record here, that I would be
happy to introduce that as part of the...and we would amend this Resolution
should it pass.
Mr. Rice: And you understand from Octavio that our official policy is to have
the county encompass an overall Regional Program rather than...
Mayor Ferre: I understand, let me tell you about the county, see...
Mr. Rice: We are with you in terms of the concept, oh, oh...
Mr. Plummer: There went my 8:00 o'clock.
Mrs. Gordon: George, you are going to be sorry.
Mayor Ferre: Let me tell you about the county, Mr. Rice, Plummer had it in
his mind about 4 to 5 years ago that he was going to do something about all of
these blood banks, okay?, and I kept going to the county because they had the
responsibility and the authority and what have you and I have never gotten such
a run-around, we kept going around, and around and around, and around, and I
went to see Dr. So and So and the other doctor, what was the name of that man...?
Wonderful man but he never did anything!, and I kept coming back and saying
look, can the City do this? And they kept saying, well no, the county has the
jurisdiction and we've got to that. You know, to this day it still is something,
that...I'm sorry, I am not a believer in big government, and the more I am in it
the longer I realize that smaller units are much more effective and I'm ready
to vote.
Mr. Rosenberg: Mayor Ferre, can I make one last comment.
Mayor Ferre: Please.
Mr. Rosenberg: I think that the introduction of any aspect of the Health Systems
Agency with respect to anything that would effect pure refinancing is simply an
attempt to extend the Health Systems Agency's influence in an area that it has
absolutely no business in.
Mayor Ferre: Okay, well, that is something that we can discuss later on.
We are not going to get into tht one today...
Mrs. Gordon: Oh, no...
Mayor Ferre: We are not going to get into that one today
Mrs. Gordon: That was a low curve, Don.
Mayor Ferre: That was a strong statement.
Mr. Plummer: How did we ever get Ferre's explanation of Metro in less than
five hours?
Mayor Ferre: Come on, let's vote on it, is there anybody else who wants to
say anything. This is on the move to defer.to March 8th.
THEREUPON THE FOREGOING motion to have this item deferred
to the March 6th meeting failed with the following vote:
AYES: Vice Mayor J. L. Plummer, Jr.*
Commissioner Rose Gordon
NOES: Commissioner Armando Lacasa
Commissioner (Rev.) Theodore R. Gibson
Mayor Maurice A. Ferre
ABSENT: None.
ON ROLL CALL:
*Mr. Plummer: For the specified purpose, I vote yes.
107
FEB , .: 1s-73
M
12 SECOND READING ORDINANCE: AMEND CHAPTER 56 OF THE CITY OF MIAMI
CODE- PROVIDE NEW SECTION, SEC.56-59.1, REQUIRING THAT EACH TAXICAB
LICENSED BY THE CITY BE EQUIPPED WITH A DEVICE KNOWN AS "DROP SAFE."
Mayor Ferre: All right, item 15 and 24. Are there any opponents? Anybody
against? All right, Plummer moves 15, who's going to second?
Mrs. Gordon: I'll second 15.
Mr. Plummer: They are close enough that they are companions, really..
Mayor Ferre: All right, 15 is the question of the drop safe in the taxis. It's
been moved and seconded, further discussion, read item 15.
AN ORDINANCE ENTITLED -
AN ORDINANCE AMENDING SECTION 56-30 OF THE CODE OF THE CITY OF MIAMI
FLORIDA, AS AMENDED, BY REQUIRING INSTALLATION OF A CONTAINER OF STEEL
CONSTRUCTION FOR HOLDING MONEY, OTHERWISE KNOWN AS A "DROP SAFE" OR
"DEPOSITORY," IN ALL TAXICABS WHICH OPERATE UNDER A CERTIFICATE ISSUED
5 i THE CITY, IN THE FRONT PORTION THEREOF, AND PROVIDING FOR THE DI-
ME'4SIONS OF SAID CONTAINER; REQUIRING THAT THE LOCK PROVIDING ACCESS TO
SAID CONTAINER HAVE DUAL KEY CONTROLS; REQUIRING THAT THE CONTAINER BE
EQUIPPED WITH AN AUTOMATIC RELOCK DEVICE; FURTHER REQUIRING THAT ALL
TAXICABS EXHIBIT DECALS OR SIGNS ON THE EXTERIOR OF EACH OF THE
VEHICLE'S REAR DOORS NOTIFYING THE PUBLIC THAT THE TAXICAB HAS A DROP
SAFE AND THAT THE DRIVER HAS NO KEY; CONTAINING A REPEALER PROVISION,
A SEVERABILITY CLAUSE AND AN EFFECTIVE DATE.
Passed on its first reading by title at the meeting of January 18, 1979
was taken up for its second and final reading by title and adoption. On
motion of Commissioner Plummer , seconded by Commissioner Gordon, the Ordinance was
thereupon given its second and final reading by title and passed and adopted by the
following vote:
AYES: Commissioner Rose Gordon
Commissioner (Rev.) Theodore R. Gibson
Vice Mayor J. L. Plummer, Jr.
Mayor Maurice A. Ferre
NOES: None.
ABSENT: Commissioner Armando Lacasa
SAID ORDINANCE WAS DESIGNATED ORDINANCE NO. 8897. City Attorney read the Ordinance into
the record and announced copies were available to City Commission members and the public.
3
FIRST READING ORDINANCE: AMEND SECTION 56-30 OF THE CITY OF MIAMI
CODE- REQUIRE A PERMANENT INSTALLATION OF A BULLET -RESISTANT PLATE
OR PARTITION ISOLATING DRIVER FROM REAR SEAT PASSENGER AREA IN ALL
TAXICABS.
Mayor Ferre: All right, now take up item 24. That happens to be the bullet-
reristant plate or partition. Gibson moves, Gordon seconds. Is anybody here
in opposition to that?
Mr. Grassie: Yes, Mr. Mayor, just a correction of the Agenda. The Agenda shows
that the City Manager recommends and that is a clerical error, I do not recommend
it and I want that clear on the record.
Mayor Ferre: Why don't you recommend it?
Mr. Grassie: Because it does not have the recommendation of the Police Chief.
Mr. Plummer: Why doesn't it have his?
Mr. Grassie: Because it is an ineffective device based on the research that they
109
FE 21979
have done nationally.
Mayor Ferre: Well, you know what it is, it's the plate and the glass and it's a
psychological thing because if somebody pulls a gun on you and puts it to your
head evidently he is not supposed to be able to blow your head out, but the fact
is that if he puts it under the seat or if he puts it outside the window he can
shoot you just as well. So I think what's happened is that where they have those
protective plates and things they don't mean anything. You know, if a man is
going to rob a taxi driver he is going to do it anyway.
Rev. Gibson: But Mr. Mayor, vhen you are playing with the life of a man I don't
think we ought to hesitate.
Mayor Ferre: That's why I am going to vote with you.
Rev. Gibson; Plus I want to speak to this item after I vote.
Sgt. Campbell: Yes, sir, we just go on our evidence that it's too easily circum-
vented, sir, and that's basically the reason for it, we did give you the ordinance
and it is up to the Commission to decide what they want.
Mr. Plummer: So, in other words, what I understand is your recommendation is that
you find it doesn't benefit but you don't find anything detrimental.
Sgt. Campbell: It is too easily circumvented, that's why we would not recommend it.
Mayor Ferre: B.it it doesn't do any harm. It doesn't do any good but it doesn't do
any harr..
Sgt. Ccmp�:..'• Our finding is that it is too easily circumvented but we do not
show that it causes any harm whatsoever.
Mayor Ferre: Let me ask you a technical question, because I never..in New York,
when I see these taxis I never understand it. I see the plate on the top but then
down where the driver is sitting, you know, I put my hand there and it feels kind
of soft...
Sgt. Campbell: Well, according to the ordinance, sir, it will be sheet steel, all
the way the floor.
Mayor Ferre: From the top to the bottom.
Sgt. Campbell: Yes, sir, you'll have a clear visual to the top.
Mayor Ferre: So the only way a robber or a thief or whoever it is that is going
to..he has to go around.
Sgt. Campbell: Yes, sir, it only affords one fourth of protection, which is the
rear, you have the front and both sides. That's why...
Mayor Ferre: I'll tell, if I had somebody taking a shot at me from four sides
and I could protect myself on one side I'd rather be shot from three rather than
four sides, so you've got my vote, do we have anything else?
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: The bullet-proof sheet is very effective and there are
many States in the Union that are using it and they have been very effective
in their daily activity. As defense goes, there is no defense in the world of
100%. This nation has all kinds of killer satellites.
Mrs. Gordon: Something is better than nothing.
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Everything helps..when the enemy comes in inside the cab
you can protect yourself from the robber.
Mayor Ferre: Hey, we agree with you, let's vote and we can move on. Is there
further discussion, let's cal:the roll. Read the ordinance.
AN ORDINANCE ENTITLED -
AN ORDINANCE AMENDING SECTION 56-30 OF THE CODE OF THE CITY OF MLAMI
FLORIDA, AS AMENDED, BY REQUIRING A PERMANENT INSTALLATION OF A
BULLET -RESISTANT PLATE OR PARTITION ISOLATING THE DRIVER FROM THE
REAR SEAT PASSENGER AREA IN ALL TAXICABS WHICH OPERATE UNDER A
CERTIFICATE ISSUED BY THE CITY; FURTHER SPECIFYING THE DETAILS
CONCERNING THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE PARTITION OR PLATE; CONTAINING
A REPEALER PROVISION, A SEVERABILITY CLAUSE AND AN EFFECTIVE
110
FEB 2 2 1979
DATE.
Was introduced by Commissioner Gibson and seconded by Commissioner
Gordon and passed on its first reading by title by the following vote:
AYES: Commissioner Rose Gordon
Commissioner (Rev.) Theodore R. Gibson
Commissioner Armando Lacasa
Vice Mayor J. L. Plummer, Jr.
Mayor Maurice A. Ferre
NOES: None.
The City Attorney read the ordinance into the public record and
announced that copies were available to the members of the City Com-
. , - , . • , •
14. MOTION OF COMMENDATION TO SGT. CAMPBELL, POLICE DEPT.
FOR OUTSTANDING CONTRIBUTION TO DEPARTMENT S CITY.
Rev. Gibson: Mr. Mayor, before those gentlemen leave that Sgt. ought to
congratulated in his representing the City at both meetings of that taxi
pute, he knows what he is talking about, the other guys are guessing and
think that to the lasting credit of this City that gentleman ought to be
gratulated in representing the City. I heard both arguments and...
be
dis-
I
con -
Mrs. Gordon: I heard the same thing, make a motion of commendation.
Rev. Gibson: ...and I'd like for it to go in his file.
Mrs. Garde: I'll second the motion.
Mayor Ferre: A11 right, there is a motion of commendation for Sgt. Campbell
that is seconard by Rose Gordon, further discussion, call the roll.
The following motion was introduced by Commissioner Gibson, who moved its
adoption.
MOTION NO. 79-94
A MOTION TO COMMEND SGT. CAMPBELL OF THE CITY OF MIAMI POLICE
DEPARTMENT FOR BEING A CREDIT TO HIS DEPARTMENT AND TO HIS CITY.
Upon being seconded by Commissioner Gordon, the motion was passed and
adopted by the following vote:
AYES: Commissioner Rose Gordon
Commissioner Armando Lacasa
Commissioner (Rev.) Theodore R. Gibson
Vice Mayor J. L. Plummer, Jr.
Mayor Maurice A. Ferre
NOES: None.
�„'i1 FEB 2 2 1979
15. SECOND ANNUAL "OPEN HOUSE 8" FESTIVAL.
The following resolution was introduced by Commissioner Plummer, who moved
its adoption:
RESOLUTION N0. 79-95
A RESOLUTION CONCERNING THE 2ND ANNUAL OPEN HOUSE 8 FESTIVAL,
WHICH IS TO BE HELD ON MARCH 11, 1979; CLOSING CERTAIN STREETS
TO THROUGH TRAFFIC ON THAT DATE DURING SPECIFIED HOURS AND
ESTABLISHING A PEDESTRIAN MALL; SAID STREET CLOSING SUBJECT
TO ISSUANCE OF PERMITS BY THE POLICE AND FIRE DEPARTMENTS;
WAIVING ONE-HALF OF THE RENTAL FEE FOR THE SMALL AND LARGE
CITY SHOWMOBILES, SUBJECT TO PAYMENT BY THE KIWANIS CLUB OF
LITTLE HAVANA, THE PRIME SPONSOR OF SAID FESTIVAL, OF ALL
RELATED COSTS; ALLOCATING $148 FROM SPECIAL PROGRAMS AND
ACCOUNTS, QUALITY OF LIFE PROGRAM - FEE WAIVERS, TO COVER
THE COST OF THE WAIVER OF ONE-HALF THE RENTAL FEE FOR SAID
SHOWMOBILES; AND PROVIDING A GRANT OF CASH ASSISTANCE IN
iMOUNT OF $4,500 TO THE KIWANIS CLUB OF LITTLE HAVANA;
SAID FUNDS TO BE ALLOCATED FROM SPECIAL PROGRAMS AND ACCOUNTS,
DUALITY OF LIFE PROGRAM - COMMUNITY FESTIVALS; FURTHER
AUTHORIZING THE CITY MANAGER TO EXECUTE THE ATTACHED SUP-
PORT AGREEMENT SETTING FORTH THE CONDITIONS UNDER WHICH THE
CITY WILL PROVIDE THE CASH ASSISTANCE GRANT.
(Here follows body of resolution, omitted here and on file
in the Office of the City Clerk.)
Upon, being seconded by Commissioner Gibson, the resolution was passed
adopt 7? !-• ' : following vote -
AYES:
NOES: None.
Commissioner Rose Gordon
Commissioner Armando Lacasa
Commissioner (Rev.) Theodore Gibson
Vice -Mayor J. L. Plummer, Jr.
Mayor Maurice A. Ferre
16. PUBLIC HEARING - DENIAL OF APPLICATION BY M.R.S.
PROPERTIES, INC. TO CHANGE ZONING OF N.E. CORNER
OF N.W. 53RD STREET AND 7TH AVENUE FROM C-1 TO
C-4.
and
Rev. Gibson: ... We made certain restrictions and recommendations, what
about it?
Mr. Robert Davis:
property from the
Mayor Ferre: 65,
be landscaped and
Yes, sir, you wade certain requests regarding access to the
South, it is Item 65.
and I remember that I wanted a 10-foot strip and it had to
what have you.
(Continued on next page)
112
Mr. Davis: Yes, sir, and there was to be some restriction, you requested some
restriction regarding the access through that property.
Mayor Ferre: Ingresa and egress.
Mr. Plummer: Have we got a letter?
Mayor Ferre: This is the property across the street from the Mohammed Mosque.
Rev. Gibson: Mr. Davis? We expect all of that before we move one inch.
Mr. Davis: Yes, sir, I will ask the applicant to answer this letter.
Mr. Weintraub: All right, I wish to address the Commission on this matter.
if I may. At the last Commission Meeting you requested that we file with you
a covenant which would restrict egress and ingress to 53rd Street.
Mayor Ferre: That was voluntary on your part.
Mr. Weintraub: It vas supposed to be a voluntary covenant.
Mayor Ferre: No, no, it is, I assume, is it voluntary?
Mr. Weintraub: Well, we have respectfully declined to file such a covenant
for the following reasons. The reasons are evident in the aerial photograph
that we have prepared for you. If I may,
Mayor Ferre: As I understand it, you have declined to do any of this.
Mr. Weintraub: I decline to give you a covenant, we've agreed to put in the
plants, the landscaping and so forth. The problem is this, you'll notice that
access to the expressway has been closed on 53rd street, there is nothing facing
the ingress and egress on our plan at that point. You'll notice that the mosque is
over on 7th Avenue, the mosque itself has trucks that park. We propose to do this:
for trucks and trailers to park, we are entitled to use this now, for parking
of trucks and trailers. Now, it would be impossible for our business plans to be
complete, for this property to be used correctly if we cannot have access to this
four -lane street, so for that reason we cannot in good conscience give you a co-
venant restricting ingress and egress.
Mrs. Gordon: You still have 7th Avenue openings and you can go in and out on 7th
Avenue.
Mr. Weintraub: No, that would be a great hazard to back the trucks into a
Mrs. Gordon: Well, let me tell you I gave my word and I'm not going back on my
word. I went with this application predicated upon the closure of ingress and
egress on 53rd St.,or whatever it is,I gave my word to the people who were here
in objection and I'm not about ready to go back on my word. If we have to have
another public hearing and bring them back and go through the mess again then we'll
do it.
Mayor Ferre: All right, this is the second reading of an ordinance in which..which
was introduced by Mrs. Gordon and seconded by Commissioner Reboso. At this point
Mrs. Gordon says that she will not move that motion so I think the thing...
Mr. Weintraub: We would ask you that you consider the ordinance as drafted if
you vote it down, then that's one thing, if you pass it that's another, but we
request that it be considered...
Mayor Ferre: Yes, all right, is there a motion on item 65, on second reading,
is there a motion on item 65?
Rev. Gibson: Move to deny.
Mayor Ferre: A11 right, Father Gibson moves to deny, Plummer seconds, further
discussion, call the roll on item 65.
The following motion was introduced by Commissioner Gibson, who moved its
adoption.
MOTION NO. 79-946
A MOTION DENYING APPLICATION OF M.R.S. PROPERTIES, INC. TO
113
FEB 2 `' 1979
CHANGE THE ZONING AT N.E. CORNER OF N.W. 53RD STREET AND
7TH AVENUE FROM C-1 TO C-4.
Upon being seconded by Commissioner Plummer, the motion vas passed and
adopted by the following vote:
AYES: Commissioner Rose Gordon*
Commissioner Armando Lacasa
Commissioner (Rev.) Theodore R. Gibson
Vice Mayor J. L. Plummer, Jr.
Mayor Maurice A. Ferre
NOES: None.
ON ROLL CALL:
*Mrs. Gordon: Counsel, you said you wanted a motion tonight, you do not want a
deferment?
Mr. Weintraub: No, I do not.
Mrs. Gordon: Well, let the record reveal that I'm voting with the motion but that
I would have preferred having a deferment so that we could have properly discussed
this at a public hearing.
Mr. Plummer: Well, that's what this is, isn't? It says here Ordinance Second
Reading -Public Hearing, this is a public hearing.
Mrs. Gordon: Yes, but the opponents to this application are not here, I don't think,
are they here tonight?
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: No, Ma'am, because we had no idea that there would be any
need...
Mrs. Gordon: Then they would come back here and therefore I'll vote with the
motion wt;ich is for the denial.
Mayor Ferre: Now, who else has an emergency that has to leave...54 is the item
a lot of people are here on. Is that correct?
17. (a) AUTHORIZE CITY MANAGER TO SUBMIT GRANT APPLICATION TO U.S.
DEPT. OF HUD FOR COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT FUNDS; and
(b) AUTHORIZE ADMINISTRATION TO FUND COCONUT GROVE LEGAL SERVICES
FROM OVERALL FY 78-79 COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT ALLOCATION FOR COCONUT
ROVE.
Mayor Ferre: All right, this is a public hearing authorizing the City Manager
to submit a grant application to the U.S. Department of HUD for Community
Development funds. All right, Ms. Spillman.
Ms. Dena Spillman: Mayor, members of the Commission, as you recall on Thursday,
January 18, 1979, the first public hearing was held on the City's 5th, 6th and
7th Year Application to HUD for Community Development funding. At that public
hearing several representatives of the community spoke and brought out the pro-
blems that they had with our proposal. You have before you a response to the
items that were brought up at that first public hearing and I'd like to stress
tonight that this is the second and last hearing and that we must come to a reso-
lution of any problems which may exist so that we can submit the applications for
funding on time. Mayor, there are several people who want to speak to this and
I thought that perhaps I could go through each item on the list and and have the
appropriate people speak when their item came up. If there is no one here do you
want to discuss it or do you just want to discuss or do you want to sip it..?
Mayor Ferre: No, we'll only discuss those issues that somebody want to discuss
here.
Ms. Spillman: Okay, is anybody here on the Allapattah Crime Watch Program?...
Coconut Grove Legal Services?..Okay
Mayor Ferre: Coconut Grove Legal, would you like to speak on it?
114
FEB 2 2 1979
These people, who are vitally affected should have the right to read what staff
has put together of justification either for or against them...
Mayor Ferre: That's so basic...that I don't think it even has to be repeated,
more than 50 times.
Ms. Spillman: Can I...? Well, you know...
Mr. Plummer: Sure, you know, I just...
Ms. Spillman: You are right, okay? I agree wholeheartedly, but let me..in the
instances that we changed the recommendations, it was in favor of what the resi-
dents wanted. In the other instances, it's the same as it was. So, I'm not
trying to justify it, I'm just trying to tell you that nothing changed for most
people since they were here the last time.
Mr. Lacasa: Dena, the problem is that the people left the first hearing with the
dea that the recommendations that were entertained here that day were going to be
considered and further discussion was going to be held on this and, for instance,
I know for a fact that some of the representatives of the area have come here and
they don't know whatever happened. I don't see the changes and I can tell you
from what I can see in here that there are things here for which I cannot go under
any circumstances so I feel that, J. L. is absolutely right, that public discussion
on this is needed.
Mr. Fosmoen: Mr. Mayor...
Mayor Ferre: But it seems to me, Mr. Fosmoen, before you make your statement
that this time Plummer told you, last time Gibson told you, before that Rose Gordon
has been telling you, how many times do we have to repeat around here that this is
a public process and it must take into account full public disclosure, the conclusions
should be discussed with people who are affected. You are turning them down, don't
vnu think that they deserve that kind of...or am I wrong?
hr. Fosmoen: We have discuss them, look, we came to you with a set of recommenda-
tions, the responses you got at the last Commission meeting where the reasons why
we should change our recommendations. We could have gone back to the community
and have the same arguments and the same debate and the same discussion that we've
been having for the last 4 months. We took the comments at the last public hearing,
we analyzed them, we took the record, we took the tapes, we analyzed them and we
made positive recommendations for change.
Mayor Ferre: 0n any of them?
Mr. Fosmoen: What?..On a number of the items that were brought up, not all of the
items.
Mayor Ferre: Well, maybe that's where we should start, what are the things that
you recommended for change that you didn't recommend the first time around?
Mr. Fosmoen: Why don't we simply run through those first?
Ms. Spillman: Can I, you know, Commissioner..?
Mr. Plummer: Excuse me, Dena, you know, look the point that we are getting away
from is -are we sitting here as a bunch of damn fools saying that we want the pro-
ject public input and then we are not cooperating by keeping these people informed?
Now, if you are going to take and have these people waste their time by comming and
discussing this matter giving their recommendation, ...what in the hel did the
Mayor this morning..he is striving to set up areas of the public to give input so that
we can understand what they want. You know, let me go back, Dena, I can remember -
and I'm not going to cast any stones or names- I remember a thing about bus benches,
something like $4,000, $5,000 a bus bench, and I want to tell you something, I think
they were the most hideous things I ever saw but that's what the people wanted and
who the hell am I to tell them that if they want bus benches, which in my estimation
are hideous, that they can't have them? This is community! And what I'm hearing
here is the community be damned.
Mr. Fosmoen: That's not true, Commissioner.
Mr. Plummer: Well, I'm sorry Mr. Fosmoen, that's what I'm reading, now I hope I'm
wrong, I really do, but you know, if in fact staff means to do and to take the
115 FEB 2 2 1979
6 f
Mayor Ferre: Yes, Ma'am, you are not happy with the recommendation?
Ms. Roslyn Sparks: Vice Chairman of the CAA-C.D. Task Force of Coconut Grove.
Mr. Plummer: Wait a minute, excuse me, I thought we were talking about Allapattah.
Ms. Spillman, No, no one was here on that item. We are in Coconut Grove Legal
Services.
Mayor Ferre: Mr. Plummer, what I ruled -and see if anybody disagrees with that -
if there is nobody here that's against it, unless you want to, I don't think we
should discuss it.
Mrs. Gordon: I guess, Mr. Mayor, what I need to hear is I guess your recommenda-
tion regarding our Legal Services. I guess after I hear that I'll know 'whether I
will speak if I need to speak.
Mr. Plummer: All right, let's the get the record clear because there is a damn
undertone going around here that I don't like and I want to put it all up on top
of the table. Dena, did you or did you not -and don't take this personally, I'm
speaking to the Department, whoever it is. Did you furnish to the people of the
community your reasons for either approving or denying?
Ms. Spillman:
Mr. Plummet:
Ms. Spillman:
we had listed
tributed that
Mr. Plummer:
lis. Spillman:
sense that we
We did in the original recommendations, yes.
What do you mean initial?
When we came to you with our recommendations, at our last hearing
reasons why we were not recommending certain proposals and we dis-
information to all the Chair prople.
Has it changed subsequent to that?
The changes that we are recommending are all positive changes, in the
responded...
Mr. Plummer: Well, in your opinion, they are positive but these are people that
are positive that you are wrong, excuse me, what I'm getting to is did you furnish
to these people the same that you furnished to me?
Ms. Spillman: No.
Mr. Plummer: Then the immediate question has to be why not?
Ms. Spillman: Well, there is no particular reason why not.
Mr. Plummer: Well, I think there is. I think that you are creating a hornets'
nest for this Commission by not allowing these people, first of all, to know what
is the thinking of staff; second of all, to adequately prepare themselves to either
agree or disagree with the staff's recommendation and, you know, I think that you
are just, possibly, maybe I'm a wishful thinker, that maybe when they read your re-
commendation they might agree. I said I'm a wishful thinker, but you know, I think
you are putting this Commission at a tremendous handicap and these people, and I'll
tell, as far as I'm concerned, until this matter has had the opportunity for the
staff to go and talk to these people and make them as aware of why, you know, when
I hear this lady here asking I've got a whole big paragraph for saying why you should-
n't have it. No, you don't and, you know,...what is the public purpose of having
hearings if you don't tell the people who you are asking to recommend.
Ms. Spillman: Commissioner, all I can say to you is that I was not here during
this time and it won't happen again.
Mr. Plummer: And Dena, I'm not speaking to you I'm speaking to that Department
You know, where is the Department? You can't be there 24 hours a day?
Mr. Fosmoen: She is the Director of the Department but, Mr. Plummer,...
Mr. Plummer: Okay, 23 hours a day, somebody goofed. And, Mr. Fosmoen, it is
immaterial to me who goofed, it's material to me that we have a lot of people down
here that are at a loss to be able to speak intelligently, and I'll tell you some-
thing, Mr. Mayor, you do what you want, if you want to follow it through, I think
s�F
FEB 22 1979
recommendations and bring them to this Commission. I think you should bring them
here, regardless, and then this Commission will decide whether the people are
right or wrong, or whether staff is right or wrong,
Mr. Fosmoen: That's exactly what we have done, Commissioner.
Mr. Plummer: Except you missed one key ingredient. You know exactly what they
are doing but they don't know what you are doing, that's the key.
Mr. Fosmoen: Commissioner, we have been meeting in the neighborhoods on a monthly
basis, at least, on a monthly basis since last September. Our recommendations for
funding or not funding a number of social service programs are no different than
they were last month.
Mr. Plummer: All right, Dick, it was said to me by the people of the Little havana
Activities Center that you appeared before them and presented a plan, they disagreed
with that plan. They asked you to go back and to redo that plan. It is their con-
tention that since that day they have not heard from you about a new plan. Now,...
Mr. Fosmoen: There is a point of disagreement.
Mr. Plummer: Fine, that's healthy.
Mr. Fcsm,:le A71 right, and that's why we are bringing it to this Commission tonight.
Those poin:s whs,ie we disagreed with the community or the community disagrees with
us are :'cu in the material that was distributed Friday, in your Agenda packet.
Each of t:,_ (.,,..:rents that you received have been analyzed and we are making them under
a positive recommendation, we are changing our position to that of the community, or
we are not, now, it's as simple as that. It's all been debated over the last 6 months.
Mr. Plur,m :.: Dick, I am not in any way, asking you to do anything other than what
your prc'i.z:ional opinion and advice is. I'm not asking you to change your mind, I'm
just s _ :hat there is a lack of communication. These people that come here and
s;.) \ in. _ :E:e:.tly in opposition -if that's what they are, and I'm sure that's what
they are, the how in the hell can this lady speak about the Legal Services when she
has npt .,a: opportunity to review why you are in opposition?
Mr. Fosmc.er.: It's the same material that we gave you last month, Commissioner.
Ms. Spil�man: but they didn't get it.
Mrs. Sparks: Commissioner, in defense of the staff, we have read what their recom-
mendations...and why they said that they could not fund the Legal Services request.
I am here tonight to either endorse it -if it is positive in what we want, and if
it isn't, if it is not ..still not recommended, to say to you that we still want it.
When she reads the recommendation of their last final thing -whatever they have
done, their final decisions- about Legal Services and the rest of the projects,
I am here to endorse some of them and not accept whichever ones
Mr. Plummer: Very obviously, let me tell you what I see. You are thinking that
he is going to come back and maybe change his mind and what he is saying is he did-
n't change his mind so he didn't come back. And that's where the void is.
Ms. Sparks: Now, I'm here to say that we will not leave the services whether they
fed it or not.
Mr. Plummer: Well, don't worry about it so much because, after all, this is only
a recommendation from staff and we hve had experiences before..this City Commission
has, year, afte: year, after years, faced the same kind of situation and the people
have always come ahead of the staff, so this year it is not going to be any different,
I guess.
Mrs. Gordon: I guess that ought to tell something, staff, I'm sorry about that.
You ought to relax and sit down, enjoy life!
Mr. Plummer: The last one of these seats was so quiet.
Mr. Fosmoen: What's new?
Ms. Spillman: Should we proceed or what should we do?
Mr. Plummer: Well, you know, as far as I'm concerned I would..Mr. Mayor, personally,
like to send this back, have the staff meet with these people, explain to them what
is and what is the final product to be presented before this Commission, you know,
117
FEr, n n 19•
Mr. Plummer (cont'd): ..if not, we are going to get in the same damn circus that
we got into with Federal Revenue Sharing, we are robbing Peter to pay Paul and
in the last analysis, Mr. Grassie, of screaming, you've spent 20% more than what
I had in the first place, and it makes no rhyme or reason, I...hey, I'll listen to
you if you want to.
Ms. Spillman: Commissioner, this has got to go out next week. It's got to go.
Mr. Plummer: That's not my fault.
Ms. Spillman: No, it is not, but I'm just stating the facts.
Mr. Plummer: You see, you came before and you asked me using the terminology or
the impression that 'pass this thing because I've got this thing in to the Federal
Govrnment, and it can be modified, changed, deleted, added to. Just pass this
document because I've got to get something in.' Now, you are coming back and you
are saying to me, hey, I've got to get a document in now because I'm under another
deadline and you are throwing me into the bad guy, and I'm not the one making the
overturess.
Mrs. Gordon: Dena, I just want to point out something as a for instance. Your
recommendations -the analysis of your recommendations- on the Little Havana Catholic
Service Bureau --is going to establish a new Day Care Program at the Community
Center..." and then you go on to say that you would help them to find other poten-
tial funding; but you know and I know that Title XX has been cut back for Dade County
and that affects the Day Care, and therefore other funding sources are very limited
and, yoJ know...
?r. Fosmoen: It was cut back this morning, Commissioner. You know, we all read
the newspapers this morning that Title XX funds for Dade County are being cut back.
'ors. Gcrdor.: That's what I said, well, that wasn't just this morning, I heard it
3 weeks ago.
Ms. Spillman: Well, I was not aware of that.
Mrs. Gordon: Wll, I was, maybe because I travel in different circles than you do,
but I heard that, that the Day Care of the Elderly is going to be cut back and other
social services, so, therefore, and I don't know what percentage of our C.D. funds
you are allocating to social services, I don't know, what percentages?
Mr. Fosmoen: About 5%. You know, if the Commission wishes...
Ms. Spillman: 6.5%. I would like to discuss these issues when...
Mrs. Gordon: We had considered, if you recall, putting a larger portion into so-
cial services. We had discussed putting more than 5%.
Ms. Spillman: Right, and that's one of the issues that I wanted to raise with you
tonight.
Mrs. Gordon: Well, let's get to that.
Ms. Spillman: Well, I'd like to but...
Mayor Ferre: All right, go ahead.
Ms. Spillman: A11 right, on Legal Services, -and I'd like to make a general state-
ment about social services before I start. I will tell you whether or not social
services is eligible under the guidelines, and then I will tell you what our recom-
mendation is. There is no restriction on social service usage in CD. There is
nothing in the regulations that says you cannot use...it has to meet certain require-
ments, but as far as a percentage I'd say we could go to almost any reasonable per-
centage and it would be accepted. So I want to make that clear, I am not telling
you that it is not eligible. I am telling you that our recommendation is not to
fund it, it would be not to fund some of these services for other reasons and then
it is up to you to decide, okay?
Mr. Plummer: So what you are saying is that the law has changed, I recall very well
a couple of years ago that you told me at that time that under the community develop-
ment you were limited by "x" percent.
FED 22 ,979
•
Mi. Spillman: Yes, it has changed.
Mr. Plummer: So in other words, what you are saying now is that it is unlimited.
Ms. Spillman: I would say that 20% is about the most it would be acceptable to
HUD and it has to meet certain other requirements and I can tell you whether these
services meet those. Legal Services, all right, a request was made in Coconut Grove
to fund legal services for the fifth, sixth, and seventh year of the program. We
did not recommend funding of new social service programs generally. Specifically
on this project legal services has an office in S.W. 1st Avenue and 13th Avenue in
Miami, which is available to residents of Coconut Grove and Dade County is operating
a legal service operation in So. Miami which they have told us will not be open to
City of Miami residents and we feel very strongly that that should be open to City
residents and because that's right next to Coconut Grove...
Mrs. Gordon: Who is funding that?
Ms. Spillman: Community Development, County Community Development. They've told us
that it is not open to City residents for whatever reasons, we would suggest that we
pursue that with them. Now, if you would like to fund the project I can tell you
where we can get the money from if that's what you want to do.
Mr. Plummer: Uhh!
Mr. Lacasa: Let us know, let us know.
Mayor Ferre: We are all ears.
Ms. Spillman: Well,..no, we have Housing Rehabilitation Fund of $350,000. I would
recommend to you that if you want to fund this we would take $30,000 out of that
because it relates to housing. People will be using legal services when they get
the rehab funds if they have any sort of problems.
Mr. Plummer: Well, has the Committee itself had the opportunity to discuss that?
Ms. Spillman: No.
Ms. Sparks: She said no and I said yes. Now, we have been discussing because from
the time that we found out that staff did not recommend legal services, we have,
to the best of my ability been scouting around trying to see whether or not we
succeed in making it possible that funding could take place and from what we could
gather it didn't seem that it might be. As far as we understand, right now, legal
services is being provided by the county but we know what has happened to the
county, the county is going to be cutting back. Now, that's neither here nor there
with us. With our C.D. Program, and this is to the Commission and I respect the
staff very much for what they are doing. Number one, that is only social service...
we are not asking you to fund any..that is our one social service program, but our
one social service program is tied in with all the other programs, I mean, well,
with all of the other things that we are doing in Coconut Grove. And it certainly,
as I told you before, is designed to complete our Human Resources Services Depart-
ment that we have striven so hard for for long. Now, we know that there is this
resort at S.W. 1st Street but the people who will be needing it are our elderly people
Now, how are they going to get down there and wait for so long and may be served and
may not be served. Now, we are not asking for the high-priced lawyers all we want is
legal services, whoever it is, somebody para-professionals or what not and we are
asking for the tune of..what, $30,000? Now, they said there were no more funds, well
we said redistribute what you did give us. Whatever it was, just take it out of one
pot and put it in the other to complement what we need.
Rev. Gibson: Let me ask...since she just said: "what's the argument?", she said you
could take the $30,000...
Ms. Sparks: ...Well, but what she is saying...see, we don't know about she says it
can come from and we have not been told.
Rev. Gibson: Okay, all right, that's what Plummer was contending, she has just told
you she is going to find $30,000 to do that so that we can stop the argument. She'll
take care of it, don't worry dear she'll take care of it.
Ms. Sparks: So what I'm here for is ask...all we want is for the Grove...we don't
care where the money comes from. Thank you.
119 FEB 2 2 1979
•
1
Rev. Gibson: Okay, sure enough, that's okay
Ms. Spillman: Commissioner, if that's what you direct me to do, that's what I'll
do. Do we need to vote on that? I mean, do you to vote?
Mayor Ferre: Do you need a vote on that?
Ms. Spillman: I don't know, it's up to you.
Mrs. Gordon: I'll move it.
Mr. Lacasa: I second.
Mayor Ferre: It's been moved and seconded, further discussion, call the roll.
The following motion was introduced by Commissioner Gordon, who moved its
adoption.
MOTION NO. 79-97
A MOTION TO FUND THE COCONUT GROVE LEGAL SERVICES FROM THE
OVERALL FY-1978-1979 COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT ALLOCATION FOR
COCONUT GROVE.
Upon being seconded by Commissioner Lacasa, the motion was passed and
adopted by the following vote:
AYES: Commissioner Rose Gordon
Commissioner Armando Lacasa
Commissioner (Rev.) Theodore R. Gibson
Vice Mayor J. L. Plummer, Jr.
Mayor Maurice A. Ferre
NOES: None.
ON ROLL CAL .
Mr. Plu rr: I'm going to vote affirmatively based upon her stating that she is
speaking for the Committee that has considered this and that they have agreed
and I'm going to vote that way also. affirmative.
Ms. Spillman: Is anybody here on the Culmer Renovation Project?
Rev. Gibson: Where are you from, sir?
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Manor Park, sir.
Rev. Gibson: That's Manor Park
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Is that the Culmer Renovation Project?
Ms. Spillman: Yes, sir. Can I give you my recommendation first so that you'll
understand?
Mayor Ferre: All right, ladies and gentlemen, it looks like this is going to
take a long time and Plummer is going to have to cancel his meeting and Rose, I
guess you are going to have to cancel yours.
Mrs. Gordon: Yes, we are going to cancel and stay here.
Mayor Ferre: We are going to have to take a 15-20 break. In the meantime, we
are going to take a 15-minute break, or 20 minute break and we'll come back again,
while they go cancel their meetings. Mr. Grassie, I have written for you a Ten
Commandments and I'm going to send them to all members of the Commission. I want
to share it with all of you. It's caled "Actions for Survival in the City of Miami."
The first one reads: "Communicate" with Commission, friends, enemies, organized
civic bodies, citizens, press. Number two says, lobby the Commission. Three says:
"Follow policies established by Commission." Number four says: "Shortest distance
between two points is not necessarily a straight line." Number 5 says: "Professional-
ism is good but must be weighed with common sense. Number six says: "Do not turn
over more stones than you can kill snakes in one day." Number seven says: "Keep
your cool." Number eight: "Keep your eye on the doughnut and not on the hole."
Number nine: "You only need to count to five but it only takes three." And number
ten says: "One thing is the truth, another is the perception of the truth, and I
put as an example the difference between what the policy board (namely the Commission)
120
FEB 2 2 1979
•
means and what the Administration means. When the Commission says no, it means
maybe. When it says maybe it means yes. When the Administration says yes that
means maybe and when it says maybe it means no." Ladies and gentlemen, while
we are taking a break, the recommendations are available, would you come up and
take them and read them so that we are all informed.
WHEREUPON THE COMMISSION TOOK A BRIEF RECESS
RECONVENING SHORTLY THEREAFTER WITH ALL MEMBERS
OF THE COMMISSION FOUND TO BE PRESENT.
Ms. Spillman: All right, is anyone here to talk on the Culmer Center Renova-
tion?
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yes.
Ms. Spillman: Can I first go through our recommendation? Well, I guess you
have read it by now, right? I'm on page 1 of the first long sheet.
Mayor Ferre: Come on, Dena.
Ms. Spillman: All right, this project...the county proposed to renovate the
Culmer Center which is the old Police Station in Culmer if the City would take
over the operation of that building. Currently the City is maintaining the
property and the county is running programs there. The City at this time through
the Department of Citizen Services does not have funding to run any kind of pro-
gram the rut our major concern is that the county is in the process of building
an over $- million neighborhood center about three blocks away from that facility
and we feel that it would be a duplication of services to set up a whole program
at the old Police Station and then open a new neighborhood center three blocks
away to prnvide the same services
(BACKGF.O1:; COMMENTS OFF THE PUBLIC RECORD)
Mr. Plum- - : I can't hear you.
Mr. Hutchinson: My name is William Hutchinson, C.D. Chair person from
Culmer Community_ Task Force. Reference the renovation of the Culmer Center.
This particular matter has not been properly presented to the community for
the community to in fact make any kind of recommendation. It has been indicated
to lac tha. it was presented at one particular meeting but as far as what the com-
munity sentiment..what the community recommendation was in reference to the re-
novation, I'm not aware that the Culmer community has recommended that the City
pick up the tab for renovation or that the community be satisfied with the status
quo.
Ms. Spillman: Can I respond to that?
Mr. Hutchinson: I'd like to finish, please.
Mayor Ferre: Go ahead.
Mr. Hutchinson: First of all, this is the location at which we do have our C.D.
meetings. The building is in need of renovation periodically through every meeting
something goes wrong with the electrical output, we need more windows in that
building and there is no question that from the physical condition of the building
and the electrical services that it provides to us, that the building needs to be
renovated. Now, I cannot come here to you and say right that the community wants
the City to pick up the tab to renovate. I can either come to you and say that the
community has indicated that they will be satisfied with the building as it is in
its present condition
Ms. Spillman: Can I clarify something? The issue at hand is not whether the City
pays for the rehab. The county --if I can go back-- last year in Community Develop-
ment the residents requested that the county CD office rehabilitate that property.
The county evaluated the proposal and for some reason put the caveat on it that they
would do it only if the City would take over the building, now I don't know why they
did that. The issue is not our money for rehab, the issue was whether or not we'll
operate the building and we are saying that we are not in a position to do that.
Mr. Plummer: Well, the one thing missing here that I don't se, is a cost factor
attached to it. How can anybody consider or how could this Comiission consider
that this is good, bad or indifferent when the only thing that we've shown is zero,
zero, zero
121
FEB 2 2 1979
•
Ms. Spillman: I cannot...I'd have to ask Donnie Horn how much it would cost
to run a Day Care Center there, I can't answer that question.
Mr. Plummer: Well, is that the request?
Mrs. Gordon: Clarification on that. When the subject came up and it was stated
that there would be no need for two community centers within close proximity of
each other, I suggested that that one be converted to a Day Care Center to serve
as the project which is across the street. I would like to state that after the
statement that came up I talked to Owen Cherry about it. She said that she
thought that there was a tremendous need and that it was a tremendous idea. I
really would like to see this to take place and I really would hope that then we
would call this the "Gwen Cherry Day Care Center." Gwen and I talked about this.
She loved it, she thought the community needed it and if in fact it takes place
and it becomes a reality, this is what I would like to see happen, okay?
Ms. Spillman: For the moment, leave it as it is. We can submit our application
and I would like to go back to the community to see what they feel and also talk
to the county as to whether they would be willing to renovate it into a Day Care
Center. I'm not sure this is enough money. And then we would have to look for
funds to run a Day Care Center.
Mrs. Gordon: Well, maybe we could get help from the county on it. with that in
mind, vol: think so, Maurice?
Mayor Ferri: :'es, I'm in full support of it but I have a question: the question
j s what Fat:- ::ibson just said and what you just said. What does the community
think?
Ms. Spillrsa:,: I can't answer that and that's why we'd have to..the first step would
be to take it back, and then we can come back to you with a recommendation on where
we could get funding for it.
M:.y.r Ferro: L1l right, what's the next thing.
Ms. Spill:la'-.: ::.e last meeting, some residents from Culmer expressed some concern
over the operation of the economic development program in that area. What we are
saying on that item is that funding for that activity in Culmer will remain at
the level that was recommended.
Mayor Ferre: Which is $118,000, if I recall.
Ms. Spillman: It's about $106,000 and it goes up.
Mayor Ferre: And that over the next few months we will closely monitor and evaluate
that program, come back to you in May with the recommendation on whether or not the
agency which is currently operating should continue to operate it or whether the
City or another agency should be recommended.
Mayor Ferre: Well, did we ever end up getting the expert help that was requested
out there? Remember we went through that whole thing?
Ms. Spillman: A lot of staff time is being spent...
Mayor Ferre: No, no, I didn't ask you that, that wasn't the question, Fosmoen
understands the question.
Mr. Fosmoen: Mr. Mayor, I've been meeting with the Washington Heights Economic
Development Board for the last several months. Mr. Bert is beginning to play a
larger role. We had I think a fairly good meeting last night when we talked very
seriously about putting together a development corporation that would let the
community participate in economic development. I think they need more technical
help. I think within the $106,000 which is recommended they could achieve more
technical help then they currently have available. At this time we are recommending
that level of funding. We are going to have a contract with them that will start
in June, between now and June we hassle out what level of assistance they need.
Mayor Ferre: Is Jackie Bell around?
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: No, she is not.
Mr. Plummer: She was here earlier.
122
Ft o n r IJ��
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Mayor Ferre: Dick, that wasn't much of an answer but I'm not going to
challenge it at this point.
Mr. Fosmoen: They haven't gotten as much as they need but we're working on
it.
Mayor Ferre: Yes, but you didn't answer my question but you can answer it
some other time as long as you answer my question.
Mr. Hutchinson: On behalf of the community, with respect to the level of
funding for Economic Development, on behalf of the Culmer Community I person-
ally drafted a letter and my secretary typed it and mailed it to Ms. Spillman,
reference her proposed level of funding indicating therein quite clearly that
the community was dissatisfied with these recommendations as are presented
here in this document which was prepared to.date. I also note in these recom-
mendations there not one inference nor expression or anything to indicate that
I in the capacity as chairperson of the Culmer community addressed this partic-
ular problem specifically to Ms. Spillman.
Ms. Spillman: Would you tell me what you'd like?
Mr. Hutchinson: Let me finish. In addition to that, at the Culmer Community
Development Task Force Meeting in January it was recommended by the community
that the level of funding for Economic Development be twice, be doubled the
amount of its past level of funding. That was indicated based upon what Mr.
Fosmoen eluded to that many of the black property owners are in the process of
trying to become private developers of the property that they now own and so
they can get some assistance from the New Washington Heights Economic Develop-
ment Congress. Now I think that is quite clear and what I just told you clear-
ly illustrates that as far as the Culmer Community is concerned we do not know,
we are not getting first hand the true and correct information from the City
of Miami planners. Now that's just it quite Clearly. As a matter of fact, at
the ias: meeting that we had not quite one week ago there was a motion, there
was a resolution passed that the planners inform this Commission, every person
on this Commission as well as Mr. Grassie that we were completely dissatisfied,
completely dissatisfied with the shell game that is being played on us out
there with the C.D. funds that this particular City obtains based upon the con-
ditions in that community and I see no reference to those particular recommenda-
tions of the community in this document, as a matter of fact, I have perused
the entire document and nowhere in the recommendations does it indicate what
the community recommended - nowhere.
Mayor Ferre: All right, thank you.
Mr. Plummer: Well wait a minute, let me expound on that for a minute.
Mayor Ferre: Yes, we're going to but I think it is time for somebody else to
have a...
Ms. Spillman: I just want to say that in the first package that was sent to
you as well as to all the chairmen, and Mr. Hutchinson was sent a copy by mail,
we listed every citizen recommendation and responded to them. It is not in
this package because I didn't want to give you another notebook but they're
all in there and he received them.
Mr. Hutchinson: All it took would have been one line - Community agrees or
disagrees - it could have been just that simple but it's not even there. We
don't know in the community what you recommended, as a matter of fact, you
don't even tell them what we recommended, otherwise it would be in this docu-
ment. Now where in this document does it state that I wrote you a letter?
Where in this document does it state that the community told your office to
let the Commission know that we were dissatisfied with the services you were
providing? Where?
Mayor Ferre: Mr. Hutchinson, you're right and the point I now want to make
is that I don't think we need twenty or thirty people to repeat the same thing
over and over to you because it doesn't, you know we're going to be here all
night on this. I mean obviously this is not the first time and the first per-
son that's saying this. Now either they're all wrong or we're not communicat-
ing properly.
Ms. Spillman: You know, I don't know what to say.
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PEI 2 2 197q
Mayor Ferre: Okay. Thank you very much, Mr. Hurchinson.
else you want to add?
Is there anything
Mr. Plummer: There's a question I want to ask. What was your level of fund-
ing on Economic Development last year?
Mr. Hutchinson: In the neighborhood of $100,000.
Ms. Spillman: $101,000.
Mr. Hutchinson: I'm saying in the neighborhood.
Mayor Ferre: I thought it was 125, 130.
Ms. Spillman: No, it was 101, they increased from 49 up to 101.
Mr. Plummer: What you're saying is that the recommendation of the community
was double.
Mr. Hutchinson: Correct.
Mr. Plummer: All right. Now, what did the community say as to where that
additional money would come from?
Mr. Hutchinso•.: rror. the CD funds.
Mr. Plurl:-:::: No, you are allocated a total.
Ms. Spillman: That's on page 6.
Mr. Plummer: You are allocated a total of $877,050, now if we're to give you
another hundred, just if we do, where is the community's position on where
that ad,-:itional money would come from?
!a. Mr. Plummer, as far as the bookkeeping aspects of it we did
not address ourselves to that.
Mr. Plummer: Got to.
Mr. Hutchinson: Well, as a matter of fact that particular question was not
presentee to the community. Now I can tell you that as chairperson when I go
back to our next meeting and to our sub -committee meeting which we're going to
have next week I will raise that particular question but it is quite clear that
as Far as moneys that are given to the people for true people needs it is get-
ting smaller and smaller and smaller. The bulk of the money that goes into
the Culmer Community is going for parks, streets, things of that nature which
probably will not be used by the present residents and property owners of Cul-
mer.
Mr. Plummer: But yet if you look at the allocation as we look here, it says
that you're not quite right. The three biggest items which total $600,000 out
of your total $877,000, the first one is housing revitalization - nobody can
argue I don't think with that. The second $200,000 designation is land acqui-
sition in 0vertown and your third item is Interim Assistance.
Mr. Hutchinson: You raise a question as far as Culmer Housing Revitalization
and as far as Interim Assistance, those programs are structured in such a man-
ner that the property owners, the black property owners in that particular area
are not really reaping the true benefits, the majority of those property owners
are not. The guidelines as have been presented to the community indicate that
the property owners who have commercial property in that particular area have
to match funds with the City to rehabilitate their particular property. Now
if they have to extract their personal funds, if they have to spend their per-
sonal funds to benefit from this money that you mentioned then that means that
they have to pass that interest onto the tenants who cannot afford it and that
has the effect of discouraging their tenants from staying there and they're go-
ing to lose the tenants and ultimately lose their property.
Mayor Ferre: All right, well thank you very much and I think the picture is
very clear and I hope that you know after so many repetitions of so many things,
we're not going to resolve this now, I don't see that there's anything that
can be done right now.
F E B 2 2 1979
•
Mrs. Gordon: You know, I have to make a comment because something he said
really hit me and that was that he said a lot of capital improvements that
we're putting into Culmer the present residents probably won't have the bene-
fit of using them.
Mayor Ferre: How can that be, Rose?
Mrs. Gordon: I'll tell you how it's going to be because that area is going
to be redeveloped and a lot of the current residents aren't going to be able
to stay there and those very same people that you know that are supposed to
be helped today on the Community Development concept are not going to be able
to utilize it. I think he's absolutely right on that point. I'm sorry to
have to say it but that's a fact about Culver.
Mr. Hutchinson: Mr. Mayor, another comment, it can be based upon the Glad-
stone Study that was done of the Overtown area which clearly indicated that
based upon the current trends and the current patterns that the majority of
the people who are in Culver right now aren't going to be there five years
from now.
Mayor Ferre: Look, let me ask you a simple question, counselor. We're going
to spend $677,050 in Culver. You are the chairperson of that particular area.
We've got to make a decision tonight and it has to be submitted in Washington
by next week or we're not going to get anything. A11 right, now what do you
propose fog Js to do tonight?
Mr. Hutchinson: I propose (1) that you double the amount of money that's go-
ing for Economic Development - that's number one.
Mayor Ferre: Now where do you want to take it from?
can't take something from nothing, there are no free
you want to take it from, who do you want to take it
can't produce more money and the the second question
is this your idea or is this your committee's idea?
Because you know, you
lunches. Tell me where
away from? Because we
once you tell me that is
Mx. Hutchinson: Mr. Mayor, I have indicated to you that the question you have
presentee to me has never been presented to the community. Okay? But you
asked me to give you my recommendation and I will give you my recommendation.
Mayor Ferre: Okay, sir, I understand. Now you tell me do you want Economic
Development, you want it doubled from $106,000 to $212,000 and you tell me
who you want to take the money away from.
Mr. Hutchinson: I mean you are asking me to act for the entire community.
Mayor Ferre: Well, you know what is it you want me to ask you?
Mr. Hutchinson: All right, take the $100,000 from Interim Assistance.
Mayor Ferre: From where?
Mr. Hutchinson: From Interim Assistance.
Mayor Ferre: Would you explain, Donnie, why don't you tell us what Interim
Assistance is.
Ms. Spillman: Can we go back a minute?
Mr. Fosmoen: Mr. Mayor, I think that we need to put a coupld of things into
perspective and I'm sorry it is going to take a few minutes. The community
approved this, the community approved the list of projects that are before you
with the exception of Economic Development....
Mayor Ferre:
ing?
When did it approve it, how many people were present at the meet -
Mr. Fosmoen: There were 60 people present and on two occasions they approved
different levels of funding for Economic Development and I think this Commis-
sion needs to understand that one of the problems in the community is that
there is divisiveness about how many dollars go into Economic Development:
Meeting 1, $100,000 to New Washington Heights; Meeting 2, $250,000, no funding
for New Washington Heights. Okay? Two different meetings and two different
actions,two different sets of people present. The Community did approve the
list of recommendations that are before you with the exception of Economic
Development in CACO. This material has been presented time and time and time
125
FEP 2 2 1979
again to the Community and it simply is not true that we aren't functioning
with community input.
Rev. Gibson: May I ask this question? How difficult is it for you to call a
meeting in that area?
Ms. Spillman: We could probably call a meeting quickly.
Mr. Fosmoen: It depends on who you want out.
Rev. Gibson: Mr. Mayor and members of the Commission, I'm going to bell the
cat. I'm going to be right there at the next meeting. See, darling, one of
these days I'm going to be a prophet. Do you remember what I told you earlier
this morning?
Ms. Spillman: I couldn't forget it.
Rev. Gibson: See, some of those people you don't know, I'm going to be there.
I know them all. Okay? And I'm going to report back to this Commission. I
promise you that. The buck stops with me, I'm going to report back.
Mayor Ferre: Newell, I just want to ask you, were you present at these meetings
when these 60 people voted and what have you?
Mr. Newell Daughtery: Yes, sir.
Mayor. Ferre: And I assume you were not there, Mr. Hutchinson?
Mr. Hutchinson: I don't recall.
Mayor Ferre: You're the chairman though?
Mr. Hutchinson: I'm the chairman.
Mr. Daug'^ter; : He was not present.
Mr. Fosmoc:-.: He was not there, sir.
Mayor Ferre: Was that because you weren't invited or what?
Mr. Hutchinson: No, if anything if I wasn't present it was probably due to a
conflict of schedule.
Mayor Ferre: I see. Was there one meeting or what?
Mr. Daughtery: Separate, meetings in succession - the first meeting where the
community voted to refund New Washington Heights at its present level that was
one meeting. The very next meeting we had the community voted to double the
amount of money for Economic Development with the proviso that New Washington
Heights not be the administrator of funds. The primary rational that they
expressed for that reason was that they were not, they meaning the community,
were not satisfied with the quality of work that they were receiving from the
present administrator. This really goes back to a problem like Mr. Fosmoen
mentioned earlier, that's been an going situation, depending upon when the
meeting is called and the numbers of people that are there and who brought them,
that situation.
Mayor Ferre: All right, thank you. Father?
Rev. Gibson: Mr. Mayor, it is very clear - call the meeting and let me know
in plenty of time and advertise it.
Ms. Spillman: We always advertise.
Rev. Gibson: And let me tell you what they aren't telling you. One faction
that doesn't want one thing is at one meeting and another faction that doesn't
want that thing is at another meeting. So what I'm going to try to do for the
Commission, I want them all there and I want you to notify everybody and give
me the list of names and I'm going to check them off and there ain't going to
be no more coming here lying to the Commission, not on that issue anyway. And
126
FEB 2 2 1979
I won't need no helmet, man, I'm a ghetto boy. I was born
on 12th and 2nd Avenue. I know that better than any of you.
Look, give me the list of names of all those people that
you have and I will call the roll when I come.
Mayor Ferre: Alright.
Rev. Gibson: Ok, and report back to the Commission who all
were there. I'll solve that problem.
Mayor Ferre: All right, we've got to move along now. It's
amost 8:00, so thank you very much. And we thank you. Now
we...
Mr. Plummer: Well, wait a minute, let me ask a question. Let
me ask a question of Dena. Dena, tell me how this came about.
Mayor Ferre: You don't really mean... Plummer, why don't you
go to your meeting.
Mr. Plummer: I want to make you damned well....
Mayor Ferre: You know they are waiting for you, you are their
State Chairman and you ought to be at that dinner.
Mr. Plummer: I'm going to tell you, Mr. Mayor, it tremendously
upset me when I had to eat the Chinese food instead of prime
ribs and you are going to pay for it.
Mayor Ferre:
called me up
Mr. Plummer:
against...
Ms. Spillman: Right.
Well, Plummer, I want you to know that they have
and they say they really need you out there.
Dena, the Cultural Arts which you had objected
Mr. Plummer: ... how did you come about a change of thinking
between the time you gave me this document on the 18th of Jan-
uary and you stated, 'the program is not recommended for con-
tinued funding since this program has been ineffective...."?
Ms. Spillman: I can answer that, I know what you.... do you
want me to answer that?
*FEB 2 2 1971
127
Mr. Plummer: ... in achieving stated objections and received a poor evaluation."
And then I read today, six or seven weeks later that you changed your mind. How
did this come about?
Ms. Spillman: We are being responsive to the community.
W. Plummer: I'm glad to hear that, I hope that follows through all the way.
Ms. Spillman: No, we...
Mr. Plummer: Oh, no, I'm going to hold you to that.
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Within reason.
Mr. Fosmoen: She's... within reason.
Mr. Plummer: Now, I'm going to hold you to that now. Ok.
Ms. Spillman: Now, I would like to give you the answer if you want it.
Mr. Plummer: You did.
Mr. Fosmoen: No, no, there is more to it.
Ms. Spillman: We are... that program was operated by New Washington Heights,
New Washington Heights determined that they didn't want to operate it any more
and arbitrarily stopped running the program. In the interim time, the Office
of Citizen Services is working with Jesca, another organization. I recommendation
is that we allow Jesca to operate the program and evaluate it after six months
to make sure they are doing a good job and continue funding if necessary, that's
what happened.
Mr. Plummer: Ok, and just for the record finally and I will be quite on this
particular area. You made a statement before that in the documents you presented
and I'm assuming this is the one you were referring to, that you put all of the
input of the citizens of the area and I want to tell you that in reference to
economic development that there is nothing in here indicating that the community
had asked that, that be doubled. It is about a two line thing in here and I
don't see anything of the recommendations of the community, so it's not in
here.
Ms. Spillman: Ok, if I can... the reason it's not in there is because we have
agenda deadlines and that package had to get to you before the Culmer meeting
was held and that's why it's not in there..
Mayor Ferre: Alright, thank you, very much.
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Mr. Mayor, I do have one other matter and it's in reference...
the... I know it's out of turn, but it's the authorizing the City Manager to
negotiate and execute a lease...
Ms. Spillman: That's not even Community Development.
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Ok, I will wait.
Mr. Plummer:
the office on
Ms.
Mr.
Ms.
Spillman:
Plummer:
Spillman:
Mr. Grassie:
hearing.
Excuse me, it is Community Development if he is speaking about
5th Street,...
Alright, but it's not part of this application.
... it's proposed to be funded from Community Development.
It's not part of this application.
It's not a public hearing, you know. It's not part of this public
Mr. Plummer: Well, it's still community funds and I will tell you...
Ms. Spillman: It is Community Development funds.
Mr. Plummer: I want to tell you something, somebody has got to explain to me
128
FEB 22 1979
forty-two thousand five hundred dollars for a one year lease and I'm going
to bring that up later, so you can rest assured on that one.
Mayor Ferre: Alright,...
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Ok. I could give you the...
Rev. Gibson: No, no, no.
Mr. Plummer: You see, all you got to do is say two words and I pick-up the
rest, he is a good lead man.
Mayor Ferre: Alright, thank you, Mr. Hutchinson. Alright, next please.
Ms. Spillman: Alright, Edison Little River and I would like to take a minute
to explain this before Annette goes crazy. I don't know if you were told at
the first hearing or not, but I think this is very important. The County has
set-up a policy whereby over the next three years they are going to cut all
economic development and social service programs funded in the City of Miami
by them, ok. So in next year... in the fifth year of the program they will
fund everything at there current level, in the six year they will cut every
economic development and social service program by 25.. If the agency cannot
come -up with that 25% on their own or from some other source, they will lose
all th it fl.�"ing. Now, what Mrs. Eisenberg had talked about is that issue
that Dade County is easing out of that. Our recommendation on the whole issue,
not Rs; economic development, but social services is that we are going to
need our Manning year to evaluate this whole situation and see what the
City can do. I can tell you right now that it is impossible for us to pick-up
every program they are dropping, there is just not enough money. And we will
come ur with the recommendation on economic development and social services
when it becomes necessary.
Mayor iv:re: Alright. Annette you want to tell us about the October fest,
righ_.
Ms. hiseLnc.l : October, April, Americana, but I'm here on community development
money tonig'.t.
N. T'11.nr^er: Dena, excuse me, am I to assume since you have skipped over
Downtown...
Ms. Spillman: No issues were raised at the last hearing regarding Downtown
funding.
Mayor Ferre: We are now on Little River and I'm recognizing Annette Eisenberg.
Ms. Eisenberg: Thank you. Annette Eisenberg, 1180 Northeast 86th Street.
We in Little River are only asking for the same consideration Dena as Culmer,
a hundred six, a hundred eleven, a hundred sixteen. The City of Miami has
helped Culmer and rightfully so, but Little River is also an intricate part
of the City of Miami and we also pay taxes there. And I do notice Dena here
that you have for economic development two hundred thousand dollars for each
of the next three years. When you said here that you would help us obtain
other funds through federal programs... and the thing that disturbs me most,
if you people on the Commission would please read this sentence, "another
alternative would be the possible of incorporating these service into the
City's overall Economic Development Program. Well, Little River has becomed
rather independent and you most admit rather successful, we are asking you
to incorporate us. We are asking you to fund us up to the level that the
County has all these years. Now, I know what you are saying, you are going
to help us find other funds. Well, we are out there trying to do that ourselves,
but we want more of an assurance that some of this two hundred thousand dollars
will be used for Little River each of those years and we are not asking, we
are being funded now at the level of seventy-five thousand dollars with...
Mayor Ferre: No, seven hundred fifty thousand dollars.
Ms. Eisenberg: No, no I'm talking about economic development, Mr. Mayor. I
our office is funded at a level of seventy-five thousand dollars, the lowest
of any subcontractor and operating with four full staff people successfully.
What we are asking for as citizens and taxpayers is some assurance from the
City Commission that we will be funded with your economic development money,
taking up the slack that the County could no longer, they say, handle.
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FEB 2 2 1979
Mrs. Gordon: You know, Dena, I want to comment about this and I think she
has a very valid point because this area is really pulling itself up by it's
boot straps and I want to commend you on the job you are doing because you
have a hard job and a long road to go. So I would hope that in this case
you would be able to pick up that slack.
Ms. Spillman: Ok, Alright, I just want to make something clear. This is
not an issue until the next public hearing.
Mayor Ferre: That's right. And I want to make a second point clear, besides
the fact that it's not an issue to night and that's something that comes in
the future, is that at the end of the third year Edison Little River will
have gotten two million seven hundred fifty thousand dollars and that Culmer
is going to get two million nine hundred thirty-five thousand. So there is
not much difference, don't come telling me that you are going to be getting...
Ms. Eisenberg: No, no, I only mean on the economic development level, Mayor.
Edison Little River is actually Buena Vista which is the great neighborhoods
which is certainly in need that's getting all of the money, not the economic
Development Offices of any other area, but Buena Vista the great neighborhood
is and I'm sure that you Commissioners will be happy to know that one property
owner in Little River on 79th Street has come forth and is going to renovate
twenty stores with our facade treatment. So we really are getting our share,
than'.•. ycu.
Mayor Ferre: That's wonderful. Alright, thank you. Next?
Ms. Spillman: Ok, the next issue is the...
Mayer Ferre: Do you want to speak to Edison Little River?
Mn. :'-illman: She is going to be on the next item.
Mayor Ferre: Alright.
Ms. Spillman: Residents in the Buena Vista area are requesting more money
for street improvements in their area. Now, this is another problem that is
not just Jermained to Buena Vista it's become a City wide problem and I would
like to explain it to you. Rebuilding streets in the City is very expensive.
Public Works has estimated to rebuild all of the Buena Vista Streets which
is what the community wants would cost ten million dollars. We do not have
that kind of money, we just do not have it. We are appropriating as much
money as we can for the streets, we are going to do the best job we can, we
will probably do a cosmetic job in some instances because we cannot afford
the rebuilds which are real expensive. The only other option that I can
come up with on this is to use Highway Bond Funds for the street improvements,
use City Highway Bond Funds. However, you know that an assessment goes
along with the use of that money and the residents of Buena Vista has stated
very clearly that they do not want to be assessed for these improvements,
so it's a dilemma and I really don't know the answer to it and we just don't
have enough money.
Ms. Graham: Mr. Mayor and the Commissioners, I'm Betty Jane Graham a
residence of the Buena Vista Neighborhood, I'm also a member of the
Intergovernmental Relations Board in our community. At the last Commission
Meeting we had someone to address the Commission concerning our street. We
invited any one of the Commissioners to come to our neighborhood and see the
deplorability of our streets. Since that time noone has been there to see
just how deplorable there are. Prior to the sewage problem... I mean, prior
to the sewage that's taking place in the community, the streets were not
as bad as they are now. We have met and net with staff and we have suggested
to them that the parks that they are recommending and all the other things
that they are recommending, that we would not like them at this time, we
want our streets fixed. Ok, some staff from the City of Miami came to the
Buena Vista neighborhood and from that staff the Great Neighborhood Association
was formed. Through this association a housing project was started, in this
housing project people will be able to receive certain amounts of money from
the City to renovate or revitalize their property. From this they will have
to pay for this being done. What we are saying now is if the City can
come in and offer a program where we have to pay, but it seems as though
when it comes to community development funds, we can't use them for our streets.
gl
130
F E B 2 2 1979
I would like to draw attention to the fact that in the Edison Park area, they
have redone all the streets there with community development funds and I see
no reason why they can't do it in our community.
Ile. Spillman: Let me say two things, the streets that were done in Edison
Park were under another program that is not run by the City, that was the
NDP that was operated by Dade County and it was several years ago. One other
point and that is where the sewer are going in now, in Buena Vista, the streets
will be repaved after that is done. They are not going to remain the way they
are, they will be repaved as part of the sewer job.
Me. Graham: May I speak to the issue of the other fund? Ok, I have here a
letter that I would like to read to you from this neighborhood. "City of
Miami Commissioners, we are here today to get a confirmation from you about
the use of community development funds to improve our streets. The Buena
Vista neighborhood is dire need of improved streets. At the last City of
Miami Commission Meeting, the Intergovernmental Relations Committee presented
a signed letter by the residents praising the housing program and castigating
the program suggested for our streets. Though the general population of this
community is composed of taxpaying residents, many have very restrictive
incomes and cannot afford an extra tax burden. Highway bonds in our estimation
is definitely a tax burden. In our anxiousness for improved streets we presented
our desires to the County Commissioners on February 13, 1979 and were told
by Mr. Ernest Martin Community Development Administrator, that the City has
the CD funds to fix our street. Now, that brings us to this Commission
Meeting, in voting for the CD plans years five, six and seven, will you approve
for our streets to be fixed with CD funds without the residents paying 25%
bond funds or will you place the residents of Buena Vista in double jeopardy
by operating a low cost housing program and a high cost street improvement
program?
Rev. Gibson: Who is going to build the houses?
Ms. Graham: Their are not advocating building houses in the community, they
are advocating that residents of the community will be able to borrow money
on their present existing housing and revitalize it.
Mrs. Gordon: That's the target area.
Rev. Gibson: Is that the City?
Ms. Graham: It is the City.
Ms. Spillman: Commissioner Gibson, alright, that is an on going... that's
a project that is now operating in Buena Vista. We have had I might tell you,
a hundred thirty-eight requests for that assistance in that neighborhood, the
response has been incredible.
Mrs. Gordon: It's a great program, we are really proud of the work that's
being done there with the revitalization.
Ms. Graham: We are not knocking that program...
Mrs. Gordon: I know.
Ms. Graham: ... Commissioner Gordon, but we are wondering why do we have
to be double taxed if we... we've accept that program.
Mrs. Gordon: You got a good point. We accept your... you made a point.
Ms. Spillman: Ok,...
Rev. Gibson: Well, let me ask you this. Which is better to have, those
houses improved so that people can live in them or have the finest streets
in the City?
Ms. Graham: Well, at this point Father Gibson, the houses are not as
dilapidated as one would have you believe they are and it's not the total
neighborhood that they are using to do this. If I have to speak for my own
personal house, I have just renovated my own house.
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131
FEB 2 2 1979
Ms. Spillman: Commissioner if I... you know, I don't see a solution to this
problem. The amount of money necessary to do what Mrs. Graham is asking us
is just not... it will never be available, unless we take our entire CD grant
and put it in Buena Vista, that's what it would boil down to.
Mr. Fosmoen: Mr. Mayor, you know, one of the points that I think the Commission
needs to understand is that it's really relatively inexpensive to get that
street paved and the portion of it that's assessed against the property owner
ends up being around 152. We are talking about may be four dollars a linear
foot that can be paid over a ten year period. Now, in a fifty foot lot at
four dollars, that's two hundred dollars and it could be paid over a ten
year period. That is not an expensive project and it is not a major burden
to a taxpayer.
Mrs. Gordon: No, but Dick, question.
Ms Graham: But you are not recommending that for other areas with CD funds.
Ms. Spillman: Yes, but we are recommending street improvements in all our
rehab areas at the same level at about a million dollars over three years
that we are recommending in Buena Vista. We can't... we just don't have the
funds to do all the streets in all the areas. You are not getting ... I mean,
if you look at the other recommendations, they are getting the same level of
funding.
Ms. Grahan: We are suggesting that you use some of the money that you are
planning to allocate for parks that the community are so against. Why can't
you contribute that money to the street improvements?
Ms. Spillman: Because that park is already under... it's under contract, it's
a previous year park and there is no... we have no park recommendations.
Mrs. Cordon: The cost of the park Dena, just so we get it in the right
prespective?
Ms. Spillman: Which park are you talking about, Buena Vista Park?
Mrs. Gordon: Yes.
Ms. Spillman: It's probably about a hundred thousand.
Mrs. Gordon: Well, you couldn't go very far on the block...
Ms. Spillman: 360.
Ms. Graham: Well, excuse me, last... to be exact we met with one of the
City planners and he told us at that time, you could do three streets for
three hundred thousand.
Ms. Spillman: Can I... that land has already been purchased by the City and
it's under design contract now, so our option is to just let it sit there or
develop a park or sell it. I mean, we have to take some action on it, it's already
purchased. Now, I don't have an answer and I might add one other thing, if
we... we are proposing to spend a million dollars over the next three years
and do the best we can and try to spread the money as far as we can spread
it. You know, there are no immediate plans for the use of bond funds in the
area. Now, there can be...
Mrs. Gordon: Bond funds... excuse me, Dena, can bond funds be matched with
that percentage with CD funds?
Ms. Spillman: No.
Mayor Ferre: You know, I will tell you, this Community Development is a
wonderful thing. On the one hand it's a blessing and on the other hand it's
really a curse.
Rev. Gibson: Yes, it is.
Mayor Ferre: It's a blessing because we got a lot of things done, but it's
a curse because there are so many people that are so unhappy about all of the
things that they want and just... we can't do everything. I don't know what
to tell you.
gl
132
*FEB 2 2 1979
•
Ms. Graham: I would like to meet with the... who did you say, says it cost
ten million dollars to do our streets?
Ms. Spillman: Well, we got that from the Public Works Department.
Ms. Graham: I would like for us to meet with the Public Works Department
and have them tell us it takes ten million dollars to do our street.
Ms. Spillman: We cannot send...
Mayor Ferre: Yes, of course.
Ms. Graham: We haven't met with them and this packet is ready to be approved
right now.
Ms. Spillman: What we can do is...
Mayor Ferre: What we are going to approve is this year. We are not approving...
(BACKGROUND COMMENT OFF THE PUBLIC RECORD)
Ms. Spillman: Yes, but we will come back every year.
Mayor Ferre: But we will be coming back next year, we have to come back.
Ms. Graham: Because when we were at the County Commissioners they said if
could get from you in writing what you are going to do with our streets, then
we are going back to them for community development funds because we are
taxpayers and I think we deserve it. I have lived in that neighborhood for
fiftet: years and no kind of improvement has been done to any of the streets
in that neighborhood and I certainly think that it's worthy of them to use
community development funds to improve the streets in Buena Vista neighborhood.
Mayor rerre: You are involved in the whole community process and you've
been at the meetings, haven't you?
Ms. Grahat,: Yes, I have. I'm also the Chair -person for the Edison Little
River Community Development.
Mayor Ferre: Alright, now, when these matters come up, has the community
voted in the same way?
Ms. Graham: Yes, the community... would you like to see the members of the
community that are here that feel that same way about the streets?
Mayor Ferre: Alright, raise your hands so that we all know that you are
here. Raise your hands.
Ms. Spillman: They've all voted, they have a lot of meetings.
Mayor Ferre: Yes, I'm sure there were a lot of other people that were here
before and couldn't wait.
Ms. Graham: There were many here that had to leave.
Mayor Ferre: Alright. Now,... and this is a matter of record now that they
voted this way?
Ms. Spillman: Yes, they did. We can have the Public Works people go out to
the Committees that meet in Buena Vista and I think the only... one solution
can be to try to come up with a different way of treating the streets, that
isn't as elaborate so that the money goes farther and we can...
Mayor Ferre: Well, why don't we try that anyway...
Ma. Spillman: I think it's worth a try.
Mayor Ferre: Alright, would you set-up then a meeting between the Public
Works Department and the community representation and let's see how,..
Ms. Spillman: Sure.
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.33
FEB 2 2 1979
Ms. Graham: Excuse me, Mr. Mayor, I didn't hear you quite well when you
responded to that.
Mayor Ferre: Yes, what I'm saying is that I think that if that's the will
of the community and that's how you voted and that's what you are representing
here. I think that we ought to have a meeting between the Public Works
Department and yourself and your Committee to further discuss this to see if
we can make some headway. I don't see that there is anything we can do
tonight. Ok?
Ms. Graham: Thank you.
Mayor Ferre: Alright, thank you, for your patience. Alright, who is the
next...
Ms. Spillman: Ok, the next item is... begin in Edison Little River and we
had allocated a hundred thousand dollars in our fourth year program for the
beautification of Northeast 2nd Avenue...
Mayor Ferre: How much?
Ms. Spillman: A hundred thousand, this is previously allocated money. We
are piarr:ir4, t dc' 79th thru 84th Street. The residents at the last meeting
indicted to us that they felt that the project was not worth doing unless
we incluGed 78th to 79th Street in that particular project. Now, I have...
yesterday we got the cost estimates from Public Works to do the portion between
79th and 84th Street will cost a hundred twenty-five thousand and the block
betweer 78th and 79th which is in very bad condition will be eighty thousand.
We has initially recommended not to do this project and I want to go into
the reasoning behind that. As you can see, the streets are becoming our
mast t ensive item and we just can't afford to do them the way we use to
do tl'en. We felt that in commercial areas and this is a commercial area,
where you have business owners, that they should be assessed for street
improvemp'ts that are done. And we felt that community development funds
should n'lt be used for major street rebuilding in commercial areas and
that was the basis of our recommendation.
Ms. Eiser<lerg: I would like to respond to that. First of the month during all
of our planning period and the way our area is laid -out, the Little River
area is 78th Street to 84th and we were told all these years that the
street improvement would be 78th to 84th, that was a commitment from the
department. Now, the County is coming through and doing 79th Street at the
same time and they are going into the... from the intersection into... on
the South on 79th Street, so that's going to be a portion of it and not all
of it. They say here that they are going to go with bond money... I would
like you to read this and then... and first let me respond.
Ms. Spillman: Well, could I... I can cut this short. Could I make a
recommendation?
Mayor Ferre: Annette, Annette, she said that she may cut...
Ms. Eisenberg: Alright, she can make her recommendation? Ok.
Ms. Spillman: If you so desire we can take contingency funds in the amount
_ of... it would be a hundred five thousand dollars to complete this project
from this years program and finish the job, if that's what you want to do.
Mayor Ferre: Well, what else are we taking it from?
Ms. Spillman: It would be from contingency funds.
Mayor Ferre: Well, how much do we have in our total contingency fund?
Ms. Spillman: Right now from fourth year funds we have about five hundred
thousand dollars.
Mayor Ferre: In other words, we are not going to be depriving somebody else
of something?
gl
! ;1
FEB 2 2 1979
Ms. Spillman: Well, who knows. I mean, by the and of the year we don't know
what overruns we are going to have. But it is... contingency funds are used for
that purpose.
Mr. Plummer:
Mayor Ferre:
Mr. Plummer:
Mayor Ferre:
one fifth of
Mr. Plummer:
Mayor Ferre:
this thing.
Yes, but that's...
But you see...
... a contingency fund for all of the City.
That's right and I'm not sure that it's fair for us to just take
it because...
Oh, no. No, no.
We will take that into consideration when we get to the end of
Mr. Plummer: Well, let me ask this question, you know, I'm trying to envision
something that I can't obviously. From 79th to 84th is five blocks and you
are saying divide five into one twenty-five...
Mayor Ferre: That's right.
Mr. Plummer: ... give me twenty-five thousand a block. Now, what is so damn
special between 78th and 79th that's going to require eighty-five thousand
dollars?
Ms. Spillman: Ok, from how the Public Works Department explained it to me,
the improvements from 79th thur 84th are mostly cosmetics, major rebuilding
is not required. 78th and 79th a complete rebuild is required and that's
real expensive.
Ms. Eisenberg: The crown is higher and the stores flood. It's really a
necessity. It's a pity that it has to be done, it's forty-five thousand dollars
more to do that because the street has been neglected and it has a serious
problem. The store... the merchants on that street are suffering because of
the conditions of the street, it's not their fault, it's an existing problem
and something that has been neglected all these years. But the redevelopment
of Edison Little River area is 78th to 84th. How can you leave one block out?
And another thing you are going to tear it up and the County is going to tear
it up this time and then you will come back supposedly, as she says, July 1979
with additional money and tear it up again, you can't do that to an area.
It is actually a matter of forty-five thousand dollars more because of the
neglected condition of the streets.
Ms. Spillman: Yes, I think it's... you know, you ought to read here that in
Northeast 2nd Avenue is going to be designated as a County arterial in July
and then it becomes their responsibility. I mean, it's...
Ms. Eisenberg: But this is a commitment the City made to Little River all these
years.
Mr. Plummer: Alright, let me ask you this question Annette. If we play the
same with you in the interest of fairness, she has said that it's an additional
eighty-five thousand...
Ms. Spillman: A hundred five.
Mr. Plummer: A hundred five for the one block?
Ms. Eisenberg: When did it get to that?
Ms. Spillman: Because we had a cost... an estimate with a hundred...
Mr. Plummer: We just jumped from eighty-five to hundred five?
Ms. Eisenberg: It was eighty when they called me today.
Ms. Spillman: Annette the difference is that there is a cost overrun...
Mr. Plummer: Inflation is a hell of a lot worse than I thought.
gl
135
FEB 22 1979
Ms. Spillman: It's a hundred thirty, Annette. The cost estimate vaa a
hundred, Public Works told us...
Mr. Plummer: I'm going to invest all my money with you.
Ma. Spillman: Public Works informed us yesterday that the portions between
79th and 84th Street would be a hundred twenty-five, so we are already
twenty-five in the hole before we start. So it's the eighty...
Mayor Ferre: Annette, we are not going to solve that at this point because
I think we are going to get to the end of the session and then we will talk
about the contingency fund, alright?
Ms. Eisenberg: That's fine. But Dena, every time it goes up and up and up
from the fourth year.
Mayor Ferre: Ok, you go talk to Dena. Now, in the meantime, what's next Dena?
Ms. Spillman: Alright, is there anybody here to talk about contractors training?
Alright, the next item is the Catholic Service Bureau Day Care Program at the
neighborhood center in Little Havana and...
Mayor Ferro: This is Catholic Service Bureau?
M:. Splii .^: Right. I guess in light of what I read in the paper this morning
the odds of seeking other funding for this program are very slim. I think the
issue that was raised, we asked Citizen Services to do an evaluation of this
and the main issue they raised with us was that there was some question as to
the cost effectiveness having the Catholic Service Bureau run this program as
oppose:: tc. say the City of Miami expanding their Day Care Program and I haven't
had tr,a: question answered yet.
Ms. Cofino: I'm Anita Cofino, I'm the Chair -person of Little Havana. I would
like Ferre and Commissioners, to tell you that our first reason
for being here today is to follow the decision from the citizens participation
meetings that rejected totally, twice the recommendations made by the Community
Development staff. I would also like to clarify that at these meetings I wasn't
the Chair -person, the Chair person was Commissioner Armando Lacasa, so I think
he might be of help to me today. Reading about the... when I found it today
because I never knew about these recommendations, the Catholic Service Bureau,
they are stating that there is another Day Care Center in Little Havana and I
wonder if Dena can let me know where in Little Havana there is another...
where is located the other... you say that there is another Day Care Center in
Little Havana, can you give me the...
Ms. Spillman: Mr. Horne just told me there were twelve, so may be he can
answer that question.
Mr. Horne: Yes, through the evaluation conducted in the Citizen Services
Department and from the information that we got from Pernela Burke's Office
with the County that licenses Day Care Centers in the City of Miami, we were
told and given a list of twelve agencies in the Little Havana area that
operates Day Care Programs, plus the fact that the City of Miami is also
operating a Day Care Program Shenandoah one street outside of the Little Havana
target area.
Ms. Cofino: But Shenandoah is stated it's outside the Little Havana area.
Ok, I have here a report from the Catholic Service Bureau of Little Havana
Day Care is in need of sixty thousand dollars to complete their operating
budget to serve sixty children three to six years of age at the Little
Havana new neighborhood facility from 7 A.M. to 5 P.M. from 1975 to the
present. At the different public hearings the community of Little Havana
has expressed the need of Day Care Services at this facility and two thousand
four hundred twenty square feet have been constructed for a Day Care Program
in our new building. Without this financial assistance Day Care Services
could not be given at the Little Havana community building.
Mr. Plummer: Tell me again, that was sixty thousand for how many children?
Ms. Cofino: For sixty children.
Mayor Ferre: How could that be?
gl FEB 2 2 1979
„v6
Mrs. Gordon: Well, they get funding from other sources, we are not totally
funding...
Ms. Spillman: There is no other funding... I want to make this
is no other funding proposed for this Day Care Program.
Mrs. Gordon: No, but isn't it true that the Catholic Service..
services funds some of that money.
clear, there
. the Catholic
Ms. Cofino: Yes, we are sponsors of the Child Care Food Program and from
there part of the funding will come and the other funding will be assessed
fees to the clients, everyone will pay some part of the services assisted by
the...
Ms. Spillman: I just want to clarify that in the proposal it does not speak
of any money from the Catholic Service Bureau. I mean, that's fine, but the
proposal does not state that.
Ms. Cofino: No, Catholic Service Bureau will reach and help together with
the Community Development of Dade County in funding to equipped the building
because this is onl, operating budget, one year of operation. In the operating
budget will be three funding sources involved. The U.S. Department of Agriculture
with the Child Care Food Program in the amount of close to twenty thousand
dollars and it will be around sixty something thousand dollars from fees that
everyone will pay at different levels in relation with gross income of members
of the family and then the sixty thousand dollars Community Development will
spread assist each one of the clients at different levels, depending on the
fee scale. So it's a budget of about a hundred forty thousand dollars.
Mr. Lacasa: And these services are going to be delivered at the community
center, right?
Ms. Cofino: At the community center from which one floor two thousand four
twenty square feet were a special design when the original plan was made to
service in there children, a hundred twenty from morning to evening, but funding
of title twenty that was what it was, it just fell through in the three years
that it took to construct the building.
Mr. Lacasa: Absolutely right and it...
Mrs. Gordon: Can I ask a question?
Ms. Cofino: Yes.
Mrs. Gordon: How many square feet are you going to use there now?
Ms. Cofino: Two thousand four hundred twenty.
Mrs. Gordon: Two thousand... ok.
Ms. Cofino: In size, square feet.
Mrs. Gordon: Yes. I want to point out a fact that Dena you have mentioned
that Shenandoah is just out of the target area, but it's totally at capacity
you can't take any more children in there, so you know, what difference does
it makes where it is...
Ms. Cofino: Yes, the other program is housed in the Geso Church we have
a hundred twenty slots for children the same age three to six years of
age, it's filled with a waiting list.
Mrs. Gordon: I'm totally in favor of this program.
Mr. Lacasa: The question here is one need. The Little Havana Community Task
Force has recommended this in every single meeting as one of their top priorities
and the reason is basically one, need. There is the need for that... the
facilities of the Little Havana Community Center were always targeted for this
type of services and this is an essential need. I mean, if there is anything
that we feel that have to be address to is this problem along with some others,
but this particular one has been a priority. Dena, you know that.
gl
13'7
'FEB 2 2 1979
Mrs. Gordon: I'm going to say what I personally feel that's been an advocate of
Day Care for many years and I'm not new to the subject. I feel that at times
like this we need more Day Care Centers, not less, We have to give parents
theopportunity to be able to go to work if they have to, mothers and fathers.
(BACKGROUND COMMENT INAUDIBLE)
Mrs. Gordon: This Day Care Center will be open from 7 to 5 and I'm sure that
if a parent comes there at 5:30 or 6 the child will be cared for until the
parent gets there.
Ms. Cofino: Correct.
Mrs. Gordon: So I'm in favor of it Dena, I would hope you will find the funds
to be able to fund this.
Ms. Spillman: Well, I think that we should discuss that now. I looked at the
budget in light of this and if we look at the projects for Little Havana which
are on page seven, the only place where I think we can come up with the money
is from Latin Riverfront Park. Now, let me explain that recommendation, that
park is under funded to begin with, we are going to have to find other
sources of money from the Bureau of Outdoor Recreation or HUD or some place
and I feel that's the best place to take it from at this time.
Mrs. Gordon: Because what you are saying is temporary and will be replace from
another source?
Ms. Spillman: We will have to or we won't be able to do the park.
Mrs. Gordon: Ok, well, I'm sure you will get it.
Mayor Ferre: Alright, well, that sounds very encouraging, I'm sure you are
happy. Now, what else do you have?
Ms. Spillman: Ok, we are going to fund the program.
(BACKGROUND COMMENT OFF THE PUBLIC RECORD)
Mayor Eerre: Alright, anything else?
Ms. Spillman: Ok, the next...
Mayor Ferre: Ok, you are funded?
M. Blasco: Yes, Mayor. I would like to ask a question to staff. They just
mentioned that we do have in the Little Havana area twelve licensed Day Care
Centers.
Mayor Ferre: Twelve licensed what?
Mr. Blanco: Day Care Centers.
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: In Little Havana.
Mr. Blanco: In Little Havana. I would like to know where they are.
Ms. Spillman: I'm sure that Mr. Horne will be happy to discuss that with you...
Mrs. Gordon: I think may be he is talking about private Day Care?
Ms. Spillman: Well, probably all sorts.
Mrs. Gordon: Are you Donny? Private Day Care Centers? Private...
Mr. Horne: It's a mixture of all kinds, Mrs. Gordon and all of the Day Care
Centers do operate on a sliding fee scale basis though, as this one proposes
to.
Mr. Lacasa: What is where they are talking about now?
Ms. Spillman: He wanted to know what the twelve Day Care... it's kind of a
peripheral issue. I think Donny...
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13Q
FEB 2 2 1971
(BACKGROUND COMMENT OFF THE PUBLIC RECORD)
Ms. Spillman: Yes, yes. Ok, the next item that was...
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Excuse me, just a minute please. Did you say that you
can allocate the money from taking it out from the Riverfront Park?
Mr. Lacasa: No, not necessarily. So we can discuss that afterwards because
there is another item there, the relocation... this relocation, three hundred
thousand dollars...
Ms. Spillman: Let me... we have a contractual obligation to HUD on our
neighborhood strategy area programs to provide relocation funds from Community
Development. Now, at this point in time I cannot tell you how much we are
going to spend, we have to program this much. If we find that next year we
are not spending at the level we thought we would, we can reprogram that money
into Latin Riverfront Park. I think immediately Latin Riverfront Park is
the only place we can look. We can switch at the latest.
Mayor Ferre: Alright, next subject please.
Mrs. Gordon: There is no urgency, nothing terrible is going to happen.
Mayor Ferre: Hey, it's 8:20 we are two or three hours behind, let's move along.
1•'h:t else do you have?
Ms. Spillman: Ok, the next item that was brought up from Little Havana was
additional funding for the Centro Mater Day Care Program. Now, I am not going
to argue about whether there is a need for it, now I really can't answer that
question, but what I... I do not think it's fair for us to consider increased
program activities for one neighborhood when we did not make that opportunity
a•:ailable tc everybody and we didn't. And I'm sure that every social service
agency we have can come up with an additional program if we asked them to.
V, don't feel that it's appropriate at this time.
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Could I just read the report from the Centro Mater
please? Centro Mater has been operating for the pass eleven years in the
Little Havana area. This program serves the youth and their families. Centro
Mater has been receiving from Community Development City of Miami thirty
thousand dollars. This program is requesting an additional twenty-four thousand
primarily for a full-time coach and a social worker, this will enable the
program to operate on weekends. They have requested these funds from County
and Federal sources, Title Twenty, United Way and LEAA without success. If
the City of Miami does not increase the subsidy once again the youth in Little
Havana will be increasing the statistics of juvenile delinquency in the area.
Mr. Lacasa: I would like to point something out in relation to Centro Mater.
It is one of the very few agencies that we have that goes out on the own and
search for private monies and they do have their own raising fund operations
through which they have been able to improve the services. So if there is
any agency also that has been constructive in our community has been precisely
this one and there... I am not going to discuss as you said the need for the
services because that is beyond question. So... well, frankly I feel that
this is something that we... this is most unfortunate that we have to be
scratching monies from here and there, but the question is this. When we have
the availability of City monies and we have the question of the human needs
versus other needs, I quite frankly go for the human needs all the time and
I know for a fact that this is not only a need for a place and an agency which
has put traditionally their monies to better good use and where this City can
trust that the services will be provided and the money well administered.
Ms. Spillman: I don't think we debate the efficiency of that organization,
it's a very good organization. Well, I can't... I mean, you know it is
when we are getting the dollars again, where do we get the money from?
Mr. Fosmoen: The recommendation of staff Commissioner, is still not to increase
the funding level for Centro Mater. We would have...
Mr. Lacasa: Well, I'm going to propose. I'm going to propose that we look
into the Riverfront Park because quite frankly... and this is something that
we discussed at length at our community meetings and it was the will of the
Community Task Force that this project of the Riverfront Park be funded, but
only after the human projects that we do need and that has a valid reason for
existing were satisfied. So as far 56he community is concerned,quite frankly
gl FEB 2 2 1979
the question here is one that at the expense of the Riverfront Park, we want the
human services provided.
Mr. Plummer: Next item.
Mayor Ferre: Well, let's see what else we have...
Ms. Spillman: We have several other social services.
Mr. Lacasa: We know.
Mayor Ferre: Well, then we are not through, we will be coming back to this,
but let me see... let's get the full spectrum of what you want.
Mr. Blanco: Armando, just... let me for your information, sir. My name is
Octavio Blanco, I am a member of the Task Force of the Little Havana Day Care
Center. And Armando I think you were right because I do believe that what the
Community Development present us on the Bayfront Park... First of all let me
tell you what they offered to us. They offered to us a baseball field that
can't be there, there is not room enough to accommodate a baseball field there
They offered to us to operate a vita course in two blocks there is less than
six hundred feet by two hundred wide. They offered to us a fishing pier on
the river, I want to know who is going to catch any fish there? And the
offered us a boat ramp they can't fill there, if nothing can't be filled there
and besides that, you know real well the area, you was there. What do we
have on this house that has been possible to buy, you know what we have on
that river house? How can you place a park so close to that house? Who is
going to be visiting that park, those people there? My family don't want to
go to that park, believe me.
Mr. Lacasa: Well, let's get into the other items here.
Mayor Ferre: Alright, let's get into the other items and then we will come
back to Centro Mater, right?
Ms. Spillman: Ok, the next agency, this another social service agency, that
was brought up was the Umbrella Agency and this was a, in my mind not a very
good proposal. It was a joint proposal between the Florida Repertory and
Umbrella and we had some strong concerns about how the program would be
administered and I frankly had some concerns about whether this would be
eligible for community development funds at all, particularly the opera. And
I think that Donny Horne has already agreed to work with the opera in getting
other funding for their program. In the spectrum of all the social service
programs in Little Havana, I think this one would rank the lowest in priority
and I do not recommend funding for it.
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Well, there has been a change Dena, it's not a fifty
thousand request now, it's a fifteen thousand dollar request and you all have
the letter there, but I would like if I read the other words I could read this
one. The Umbrella Center Incorporated Opera: The Opera Conservatory Umbrella
is a branch of the Center Umbrella in which it offers different services to
the community of Dade County. Our center is located in the community center
of Little Havana. The community responds 100% of all presentations which are
under our Auspices such as Opera I, Pagliacci... I think that I am pronouncing
-it right, I don't know Italian. Giving note of Mr. Horacio Aguirre's silver wedding
anniversary with the newspaper Diario De Las Americas in which he found. Other
operas presented this year were by Pucinni , Cayalleria Rosticana
Elixir of Love as well as other presentations such as concerts that was done
by the opera. Like last year these concerts were free to the public and the
auditorium was full. We are trying to raise fifty thousand dollars for our
program. We want to do one presentation per month at professional levels and
each presentation cost about five thousand dollars. The community waits for
our presentations, but they are more expensive each time because of the rising
cost of transportation and equipment. We have to help both Eastern Airlines
and Lacsa Airlines to pay for travel fare and hotels and anything else that is
needed. The performers need at least one week before the function to practice
with the orchestra and the chorus. This year we are preparing the chorus and
are giving tuitions in order to use their artistic potential in our community.
Our modern projects are the typical Symphonic Orchestra and the Latin Orchestra.
Next year we will be funded by the patronage of the arts.
gl
140
FEB 2 2 1979
M. Spillman: Again, I don't think this is appropriate for Community Development
funding.
Mayor Ferre: Well, Mrs. Gordon do you want to make a statement, do you want
to ask a question about PACE ?
Mrs. Gordon: No, I just wanted to know where PACE got their money from.
Mayor Ferre: Because there is an organization called PACE, now and they involve
themselves in performances and all that. Those are union funds, aren't they?
Ms. Spillman: I don't know...
(BACKGROUND COMMENT OFF THE PUBLIC RECORD)
Mayor Ferre: Oh, I see.
(BACKGROUND COMMENT OFF THE PUBLIC RECORD)
Mrs. Gordon: Who funds it Annette?
(BACKGRDUN- C'WMENT (FF THE PUBLIC RECORD)
Ms. Spaik�..n: As well as a private contractor.
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: They pay the matching fund.
Mrs. Gordon: Oh.
(EACVA. `:7:I) COMMENTS OFF THE PUBLIC RECORD)
LTNIDE:,_is _:_) SPEAKER: Half and half.
Ms. Spi! l:.:a:.. Can we... may be...
Mr. Grassie: Mr. Mayor, I don't know. Do you want any further explanation about
PACE?
Mayor Ferre: No.
Mr. Grassie: Fine.
Mrs. Gordon: Yes, I would like to hear. Would you just clarify that for me
I want to know.
Mr. Grassie: What? PACE gets their funds from a surcharge which is placed
on every record sold in the industry.
Mrs. Gordon: Oh.
Mr. Grassie: Now, this came out of the second World War. I don't know whether
you remember Petrillo and his union activities, but that money goes into
a fund which supports live performances and...
Mayor Ferre: Joe, that's very nice, but that's not going to solve our problem
tonight, is it?
Mrs. Gordon: No, I just wanted to know where they got the money, ok.
Mr. Grassie: Your fellow Commissioner asked for the explanation.
Mayor Ferre: Alright.
Mr. Plummer: Dena, can I ask a question here for a minute? I'm trying to
follow this and I'm totally blown out here. Down at the bottom of page four
you got listed here one million dollars in the fifth year.
Ms. Spillman: Right.
Mr. Plummer: What is that?
Ms. Spillman: That's the Miami Riverfront Specialty Center project. That
funding is for land acquisition.
Mr. Plummer: But you don't show that in the Little Havana total.
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FEB 2 2 1979
Ms. Spillman: It's on your sheet there as a community wide project.
Mr. Fosmoen: Remember Commissioner, there are a number of projects that have
total community impact.
Ms. Spillman: That's on page eight, I believe.
Mr. Plummer: Boy, let me tell you am I glad you brought that up.
Mayor Ferre: What are you on now?
Ms. Spillman: He is looking at page 7 at the... no, I'm sorry, page 8 at
the Specialty Center project it's under target area wide projects.
Mayor Ferre: Yes, and what did you say that was?
Ms. Spillman: That's the project that resulted from the Wallace/McHarg Study
the Miami Riverfront Specialty Center, the funding in there is for land
acquisition.
Mr. Lacasa: That is Dena, on what side of the river? On the...
Ms. Spill.nan: It's on the North side of Flagler Street on the West side of
the r_'v,_.
Mayor Ferre: On the Little Havana side.
Ms. Spillman: It's in Little Havana.
Mr. La..ass: No, that is not in Little Havana, that is...
Ms. F 1_:-.an: Yes, it is. It's in the target area.
Mr. i.a.azi: It's on the other side of the river.
Mr. Plummer: No, it's on your side. It's on the other side of Flagler, but
it's on your side of the river.
Mr. Lacasa: It's not...
Mr. Plummer: Yes, it is.
Mr. Lacasa: Get the map.
Mr. Plummer: Yes, it's definitely in Little Havana.
Ms. Spillman: Should we go through all the social services and then see what
we want to do with them? Alright, the next one... wait, can I ask one question?
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yes, could you tell me what happened?
Ms. Spillman: We are going to go through all of these and the Commission will
then decide which one. Was that for fifteen thousand dollars or fifty?
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Fifteen thousand dollars.
Ms. Spillman: Fifteen.
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Fifteen thousand. (INAUDIBLE).
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: She is trying to say that her program received two
awards and it was in the newspaper about her programs last year.
Ms. Spillman: Ok, the next request was for additional funding for the Accion
Transportation Program. Accion receives funding from City Federal Revenue
Sharing, City CD, County CD and CETA funds. Citizen Services reported that
after an evaluation Accion was given additional CETA positions and in their
mind does not need additional funding to operate their program and we are
not recommending additional funding for this program.
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Accion... may I?
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FEB 2 2 1979
Mr. Plummer: Which one?
Mr. Octavio Blanco: Accion.
Ms. Spillman: Accion Transportation Program, it's the second one on page t
four.
Mr. Octavio Blanco: Accion Community Center Inc., has been operating for
the past five years in the City of Miami in Little Havana area. This program
provides free transportation services to the elderly, the handicapped and youth.
In the past year this program provided thirty-six thousand trips. We are now
requesting an additional twenty thousand dollars for operating expenses.
Ma. Spillman: I might explain here something that we are going through right
now and that is we have a transportation program operating in Allapattah by
Dade County. They have not in our minds operated that program very well at all
and after the evaluation is finished we are considering putting that program
in with Accion and giving Accion that funding to operate in Allapattah.
Mr. Plummer: According to them you are not giving them enough to operate
where they are.
Mr. Lacasa: There is a problem that we have. You know that this ten thousand
dollars that Accion has been having for the last years and that is what you
are recommending now, but this is not taken into consideration one fact and
that is that Accion now has to pay rent, before hand they were not paying
rent. If they have ten thousands dollars, the same that they had last year,
that is not enough to cover their budget. And on top of that they do have to
pay rent now at the community center, how are they going to make it?
Ms. Spillman: We have already taken care of that problem.
Mr. Lacasa: You are taking care of that? How are you taking care of it?
Ms. Spillman: They were given additional funding for that.
Mr. Lacasa: They have been given additional funds.
Ms. Spillman: So they don't have to worry, the rent is taken cared of.
Mr. Lacasa: The rent is taken cared of, ok. Now, Accion, I understand that
you people serve not only Little Havana, but other areas of the City of Miami.
Is that correct?
Mr. Octavio Blanco: I do believe the Community Development staff know where
we serve. We do serve all City of Miami limits. We do serve especially
people in the Little Havana because according to the census Little Havana
population area is on the... one of the highest in the City... I mean, in the
City of Miami, the highest in elderly people. And you know how many government
buildings we have for elderly and handicaps. Now, when they say that additional
funding was given to this agency and agreed that the City of Miami give us
four additional positions or they promised to us, but they give it to us, we
haven't been able to fill those because of the red tape that we have now. But
we don't have additional persons and additional positions, may be we do have
from the City of Miami, but as you people are well aware, we do have last
year eighteen CETA positions. We lose from Dade County because we are running
the same program this year than last year and we don't blame the City of Miami
because of that. But as you remember two persons from the staff... I mean,
from the Federal Revenue Sharing money that we got... we got forty-seven thousand
dollars last year and this year we got thirty thousand with the promise by
this staff down here that those people was going to put back under CETA, two
positions. Now, the law changed, right? So if we do have last year from the
City of Miami nine positions and it's on the record. they was
aware to us because the funding... they was cut off from the Federal Revenue
Sharing, this means that the City of Miami was under obligation to us, they
promise to usteleven. Now, they are giving to us two more, thirteen positions.
Mr. Lacasa: And what else is what you need here because we see here additional
funding was requested, but not the amount. What is the additional amount you
are requesting now?
Mr. Plummer: Another twenty.
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.FEB 2 2 1979
Mr. Octavio Blanco: The additional amount has been already offered by
Anita Cofino and they do have twenty thousand with their budget and why we
do need it. Besides that I want to know... I mean, we was recommended by the
staff, the one who make the check-up on our program that we do need it.
Mr. Fosmoen: Mr. Mayor, I think we have sort of a serious problem.
Mayor Ferre: More than one.
Mr. Fosmoen: If I'm hearing that Accion is providing services outside of the
Little Havana target area and they are requesting funding from us for additional
services, we are going to have to look at the whole contractual obligation
we have with them right now because Community Development funds won't permit
us to fund this service City-wide.
Ms. Spillman: Yes, it's got to be in the target area.
Mr. Octavio Blanco: Excuse me, sir, but let me... Armando, we do get from
the City of Miami...
Mr. Plummer: I thought you said it was called target area wide project....
Mr. Octavio Blanco: ... ten thousand dollars from Community Development.
That don't force us to be the only exclusive service because with ten thousand
dollar you can't even hire a taxi... I mean, a driver for one of these vehicles.
Ms. Spillman: You know, I want to make something clear that ten thousand is
not all they are... they get thirty thousand from Federal Revenue Sharing, ten
thousand from County CD and sixty-four thousand in CETA money, so it's not
jus. our ten thousand that's...
Mr. Octavio Blanco: No, no, I'm just trying to answer the remark that he
made that they have to review our program because the Community Development
money has to be used. And we are following ever regulation guide from the
Federal Government.
Mr. Plummer: Well, but I'm sure what you are saying also is that, that money
you received from CD only works towards the City residents, the Little Havana
residents.
Mr. Octavio Blanco: I don't believe that is enough.
Mr. Plummer: The other money is allocated to the other areas.
Mr. Octavio Blanco:
only...
Mr. Plummer: I understood your answer, thank you.
Mr. Octavio Blanco: No, you don't.
Mr. Plummer: Oh yes,... no, you didn't understand.
Mr. Octavio Blanco:
those funds.
We are required... Commissioner Plummer, we are required
We are only supposed to give you nine percent with
(BACKGROUND COMMENT OFF THE PUBLIC RECORD)
Mayor Ferre: Alright,...
Ms. Spillman: Do you want me to... what do you want to do?
Mayor Ferre: Yes, let's keep on going.
Ms. Spillman: Ok. The next project that came up from the community, it is
eligible, is the Industrial Home for the Blind. They would like fifty
thousand dollars to expand an existing program. Again, our recommendation is
not to fund additional social services. They receive a total of a hundred
seven thousand dollars from other sources.
Mayor Ferre: You know, I don't see that. What page are we on?
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F E B 2 2 1979
Ms. Spillman: Page four.
Mayor Ferre: Oh, I see it, I got it. Page four, yes.
Ms. Sylvia Corrales: Commissioners, Mayor, my name is Sylvia Corrales, I'm representing
the Industrial Home for the Blind Foundation. In reference to the statement
where you specified me a hundred seven thousand with City Federal Revenue
Sharing funds...
Ms. Spillman: No, and CETA and the income... your total budget is a hundred
seven from three sources.
Ms. Corrales: Well, we received seventy thousand from CETA funds and ten thousand
from the City of Miami Now, where is the other money coming from?
Ms. Spillman: That is what I was told, income from the sale of soap which
program participates make.
Ms. Corrales: Ok, let me clarify that. The sale of soaps, we use that money
to pay wages to the blind clients and also for the you know, material that
we have to buy. I don't that can be considered, you know...
Ms.Spillman: Well, it's part of your total budget as I understand it.
Mayor Ferre: Well, how much are you getting from the Federal Revenue Sharing
fuid;i:
Ms. Spillman: Ten thousand.
Mayor Ferre: Ten thousand. And how much are you getting in CETA funds?
Ms. Corrales: Seventy.
Mayor .,:re: That's eighty thousand.
Ms. (,orra es: Right and most of the money from CETA is use for the training
participants.
Mayor Terre: And how much did you get from... Did you get any from CD last
year?
Ms. Spillman: No, this is a new program.
Mayer Ferre: This is a new program, you have never been funded then?
Ms. Corrales: No, we have never been funded.
Mayor Ferre: So this is your request for fifty thousand and it's fifty
thousand of the new money?
Ms. Corrales: That's right. We need to improve, you know, a lot of our programs.
Mayor Ferre: Can I...
Ms. Corrales: Also, there is a lot of blind people in the area of Little Havana
that need help, you know, and this program would be a good thing to, you know,
get more people involved in these activities.
Mayor Ferre: Well, how many people are in the program now, how many blind
people?
Ms. Corrales: We have twenty right now.
Mayor Ferre: Twenty. How many would you have if you got additional monies?
Ms. Corrales: If we get additional monies we could double or triple.
Mayor Ferre: There are that many blind people that need that kind of service?
Ms. Corrales: Yes, there is. There are many blind people in Dade County and
Little Havana.
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FEB 2 2 1979
Mayor Ferre: No, no, not Dade County, Little Havana.
Me. Corrales: Oh, Little Havana, yes, definitely.
Mr. Plummer: Well, let me ask a question. You know, some where we have got
to equate and I'm speaking to every program, a person dollar figure. Now,
I'm sorry that we have got to say that, but using your program if you are
presently with twenty people and you are funded to the tune of a hundred
seven thousand dollars...
Mrs. Gordon: No, they are funded to eighty thousand, J. L....
Ms. Corrales: No, it's not really a hundred seven thousand. You know, I
clarified the seventy and the ten thousand from the...
Mayor Ferre: It's eighty thousand, the other is the soap.
(BACKGROUND COMMENT INAUDIBLE)
Mr. Plummer: Alright,... No, the point Armando, I'm trying to come to under
present funding...
Mayor Ferre: What they are getting, J. L....
Mr. P3.um:rer'... it is costing four thousand dollars per person.
Mayor Fcrre. No, no, what they are getting is... what they are getting...
let's say what it is, they are getting seven CETA positions and ten thousand
bucks. Now, I don't care how much, you know, CETA positions... you know how
these CETA positions work...
Mr. Lacasa: And ten thousand dollars in cash, that's all they are getting.
The io the CETA position and whatever they make out of the sales of
soap.
Mr. P'_um= Armando, my friend, you know, I can go along with that and if
you want tc comma back using that same argument, is what Rose always said that
I was wrong on Day Care Centers.
(BACKGRO:;:D COMMENT OFF THE PUBLIC RECORD)
Mr. Plummer: You know, regardless of where the money is going, the bottomline
is that, that program represents using the figure of eighty thousand, twenty
participants divided into eighty is four thousand dollars a person. Now,
you know, I don't care whether it's CETA or whether it's soap or whether what
it is, the program represents eighty thousand dollars. Now, if we come back
and we look at the Catholic Service Bureau, my computation comes out some
where in the neighborhood of about fourteen hundred dollars a child, fifteen
hundred dollars a child.
Mayor Ferre: I think there is a difference between blind people and child.
Mr. Plummer: I understand there is a big difference between the two, but Mr.
Mayor, what I'm trying to come to is some where we have got to equate a cost
factor of, you know...
Mayor Ferre: I agree. I agree Plummer, what do you want to do?
Mr. Lacasa: Let me ask a question here, you were saying that you could double
or triple the amount of blind people...
Ms. Corrales: Well, it all depends how much money we will get... I mean, I don't
know exactly to the dollar.
Mr. Lacasa: Ok, let me ask a question... just a minute, let me ask this question,
let me ask this question. You say that you could double or triple, the question
is this, you have a certain budget... certain administrative expenses...
Ms. Corrales: Right.
Mr. Lacasa: ... that you will have to have whether you served twenty people
or thirty people or forty people, that's the overall cos'... that the overhead
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F E B 2 2 1979
•
shall we say, the overhead. Now, if you were to be increased X number of
dollars, in what percentage would you increase the number of people to be
served that could result in a reduction per capita of the amount of dollars
spent per persons?
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: She couldn't understand the question.
Ms. Corrales: I'm sorry, could you...
Mr. Lacasa: Ok, now you have administrative expense, you have rent, you have
utilities, you have directorships and so forth...
Ms. Corrales: Right...
Mt. Lacasa: ... that cost you X number of dollars.
Ms. Corrales: That's right, we use for administration...
Mr. Lacasa: Administrative. You don't have to increase the administrative
expenses...
Ms. Corrales: No, we don't.
Mr. Lacasa: ... to increase the number of peoples to be served, correct?
Ms. Corrales: Right.
Mr. Lacasa: Therefore,...
Ms. Corrales: But we do have problems with, you know, that we need more
administrative staff, you know...
Mrs. Gordon: She does need more staff.
Ms. Corrales: And you know, we need staff to...
Mrs. Gordon: She had to hire more staffs to train more people.
Mayor Ferre: Alright, well, we will...
Mr. Plummer: Alright, Maurice, let me stop right here because there is
something somebody better understand that I don't. Mr. Grassie, this lady
is saying that she has presently and I should have brought this up much earlier.
That she has presently seven CETA positions...
Ms. Corrales: Seven and two from the City of Miami...
Mr. Plummer: Ok, let me speak to the seven. Wait a minute. My concern
Mr. Mayor, is that we know that within the next eight months, there are
drastic changes being made in CETA. The one drastic change that I think we
better consider right now...
Mayor Ferre: Oh, no, not right now.
Mr. Plummer: Well, this is just a change of the funding problem that's going
to be a problem.
Mayor Ferre: How wonderful, Plummer. Now, you bring that up at the next
meeting or you write a memorandum on it and we will be happy to...
Mr. Plummer: Maurice, what I'm saying...
Mayor Ferre: I know exactly what you are saying, that we are going to be
out of eight hundred people plue six...
Mr. Plummer: No, no, no, the point I'm addressing is the point that under
the new funding you are only going to be able to fund seven thousand sixty-
five dollars, ok.
Mayor Ferre: To spend seven thousand dollars... that's right.
Mr. Plummer: Now, that means that they automatically are going to be down
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FEB 2 2 1979
twenty-one thousand dollars.
Mayor Ferre: Yes, that's fine.
Mr. Plummer: And are we going to address that shortage now or we are going
to wait until all this money is gone and then not have?
Mayor Ferre: No, we are not going to address that problem now because it's
not facing us now, nor will it face us any of this year. As I understand
that goes into effect of the next fiscal year. Is that right?
Mr. Plummer: Nope.
Mr. Grassie: The deadline for the turnover is 30th of September Mayor.
Mayor Ferre: Well, fine. I will tell you, the City of Miami along with
fifteen thousand other Cities, Counties and local Governments are faced with
that problem and I guarantee you that this Congress hasn't heard the last of
it. And we will see how it changes and if it doesn't change, we will worry
about that between now and October, but at quarter to nine with a hundred
people waiting on the Marina thing and twenty other items that we haven't
done, let's not take it up now.
Mr. Plummer: Fine.
Mayor Ferr:: Alright, let's see if we can move along.
Ms. Spillman: Alright, we have four social service programs in Little Havana
that we need to talk about funding.
Ms. Corrales:
seeds be a
Little
Ms. Spillman:
Ms. Corrales:
dollars.
Ms. Spillman:
Ms. Corrales:
Ms. Spillman:
Just a moment, excuse me. I think that you missed one or there
misunderstanding. I don't see the Catholic Service Bureau
Outreach Office. It's not in the recommendations.
What is the amount on that.
They are requesting thirteen thousand six hundred thirty-two
Which would be a new program.
But it was omitted plenty times.
It's still a new program.
Ms. Corrales: Could I read the problem just a minute, please? Catholic Service
Bureau Little Havana Outreach Office is a social service agency serving all
persons regardless of age, race, creed or nationality residing within the
area of Little Havana. Offers information and referral as well as individual
and family counselling. Also, works with the elderly and their families
helping them to function in their home or to make adequate and realistic
plans for the their future. Our office is now located at the community
center. Presently we are unable to meet the request for services from our
clients and we have to refer them to other agencies out of the area. Lack
of transportation and language barriers aggrevates their problem preventing
them from receiving the needed serve they are requesting. We are asking
for the location of thirty thousand six hundred thirty-two dollars which
will enable us to hire another social worker. They don't have that in the
program.
Mayor Ferre: Alright.
Ms. Spillman: Alright, that... we now have five social service programs in
Little Havana that I think we need to reach reach some decision on. We have
the Catholic Service Bureau that was just discussed, Centro Mater, Umbrella,
Accion and the program for the blind.
Mr. Plummer: What does that total? How much?
MN. Spillman: It totals a hundred twenty-two thousand six hundred thirty-
two dollars.
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FEB 2 2 1979
Mr. Plummer: That's the request of all of the things from Little Havana?
Ms. Spillman: No, I left out the Day Care which we had agreed would come
out of the park. Now, if you want me to put...
Mr. Plummer: And that is how much?
Ms. Spillman: Sixty.
Mr. Plummer: So that makes it one hundred eighty-two?
Ms. Spillman: Right.
Mayor Ferre: What are you adding up?
Mr. Lacasa: What is the one hundred twenty-two, Dena? That doesn't take
care of...
Ms. Spillman: No, the Day Care I thought we had already sort we were going
to fund that out of the park.
Mayor Ferre: Yes.
Ms. Spillman: But I can throw it back in here if you want me to.
Mayor Ferre: No, no.
Mr. Plummer: Well, obviously it's all going to come out of the park.
Mr. Lacasa: Right. No, no, just leave it the way it is, just leave it there.
Ms. Spillman: We have the Catholic Service Bureau of $13,632...
Mayor Ferre: Thirteen?
Ms. Spillman: That's another program in addition to the Day Care.
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Excuse me, may I say something, that the Catholic
Service Bureau program has present the proposal to the City of Miami
since October of last year and I am surprised that we don't have it here
in the recommendations...
Ms. Spillman: Because it was not discussed at the last hearing, that's why.
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: It was not discussed at the last hearing, but the
proposal was presented and we have... in all the meetings that we have, the
community meetings, it was approved and accepted by all the community.
Ms. Spillman: Ok, well, it's on the list now, so...
Mayor Ferre: Well, but wait a moment. I'm going to tell you,... I mean,
we are not going to fund everything here.
Ms. Spillman: Well, I certainly hope not.
Mayor Ferre: I mean, I think we are going to do some of these things, but
we can't do everything. There is just no way in the world, I'm very sorry,
you know, it just doesn't function that way. There are other parts of this
community who also have needs...
Ms. Spillman: Can I make a recommendation to kind of...
Mayor Ferre: Yes, please.
Ms. Spillman: We have already decided to fund the Day Care, it's in the
neighborhood center, it's a good program. I think the feeling tonight also
was that the blind program is a valuable program and it's also operating in
the neighborhood center. Those are both new programs, I think we can justify
them to HUD because they are in the neighborhood center. I would suggest that
the others, they are all increases... The other ones are either increases
or programs like the opera that we do not feel are appropriate, we not fund
those.
Mr. Lacasa: Well, Dena, I am not going to discuss the opera at this point,
I think that we do have other priorities and most unfortunate, but I do
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FEB 2 2 1979
believe that we do have other priorities. Now, about the question of Action,
that is a must and the question of the Centro Mater is another must. So we
have agreed on two already, let's see if this... let's take the rest...
Mr. Plummer: What is Action?
Ms. Spillman: Alright, wait, if we fund the Day Care and the blind program,
that's a hundred ten thousand dollars.
Mr. Plummer: Right.
Ms. Spillman: If we add Action, that's a hundred thirty thousand dollars.
W. Plummer: Right.
Ms. Spillman: And if we add Centro Mater, that's a hundred fifty-four thousand
dollars.
Mayor Ferre: Well, now wait a minute, how much did you have for the blind?
Ms. Spillman: Pardon me.
Mayor Ferre: I didn't hear the figures.
Mr. Plummer: Fifty.
Mayor Ferre: I don't think so. I don't think so, not for the blind program,
you don't need that much.
Ms. Spillman: Well, we could...
Mrs. Gordon: They said fifteen, didn't they?
Ms. Spillman: Fifty is what they are asking.
Mrs. Ccrdon: One five.
Mayor Ferre: No, not five zero. If you said... If you are talking about
one five 1 have no problems.
Mrs. Gordon: They said fund five I thought.
Ms. Spillman: No, the request they made was for fifty thousand dollars.
Mayor Ferre: Now, we have to approach this realistically, you are not
going to get fifty thousand dollars. Now, what can you realistically live
with? Fifteen, alright, that's fine.
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: The Centro Mater program for the juvenile, Dena... now,
when you get through laughing. How much...
Mr. Plummer: There is an inflation fighter.
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Dena, what is the...
Mayor Ferre: Alright, well anyway let's start over again because may be
we might have to do better here.
- Mrs. Gordon: Excuse me, Maurice...
Mayor Ferre: I'm sorry Rose.
Mrs. Gordon: The Centro Mater Juvenile program, how much was the request
for that?
Ms. Spillman: The Centor Mater? Twenty-four thousand.
Mrs. Gordon: Ok, and that is going to service a weekend program which I
don't think there is any other program that's available for the juvenile
on a weekend that I know of. I feel that, that ought to be funded to the
amount that's requested.
Mr. Lacasa: Rose, you cannot be more right because if these, I know them
well, if they ask for twenty-four thousand they need twenty-four thousand
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'FEB 2 2 1979
and that's what they need.
Mrs. Gordon: Well, I'm not objecting, I think it's a good and worthwhile
program and I'm totally in favor of it.
Ms. Sylvia Corrales:
I would like to take
that's not in order
The City of Miami and Dade County are responsible for the registration and...
Before you continue, please. Mr. Mayor and Commissioners,
this opportunity to bring to this Commission a request
which I considered my great concern.
Mr. Lacasa: What? What was that?
Ms. Sylvia Corrales: Will you listen to it first? Ok, registration and
election process of the Chair -person of Little Havana. As of now there is
no office for the functions of the Chair -person in the community. In my
case the persons who request assistance or wishes in anyway any type of
information will visit my business office which you may know is a union
office. If is my opinion that this is a very improper place to be dealing
with the community problems which in this office are constantly workers
complaining, labor disputes, etc. It's my request to this Commission the
allocation of an office space with a CETA employee, so this elected Chair -person
can give the community the proper service they were elected for.
Ms. Spillman: Can I give a quick response to that? We are going to be coming
to you in the near future with a recommended citizen participation system,
I suggest that an item like that be discussed at that time.
Mr. Lacasa: Ok, let's leave it for a future discuss.
Mayor Ferre: Alright, let me... alright, let's go over this again, twenty-four
thousand for Centro Mater, fifteen for the blind,... How much for Accion?
Ms. Spillman: Accion requested twenty thousand.
Mr. Lacasa: Twenty.
Mayor Ferre: Twenty. Alright, what else is there?
Ms. Spillman: Day Care was sixty...
Mayor Ferre: Well, Day Care we took care in another way.
Ms. Spillman: Day Care was dealt with. Alright,...
Mayor Ferre: That's it right?
Ms. Spillman: I would think so.
Mrs. Gordon: What that add up to?
Mayor Ferre: That's fifty-nine thousand dollars.
Mrs. Gordon: Ok, let's move that ahead.
Mayor Ferre: Alright,...
Ms. Spillman: Now, we have... there are contingency funds in the fifth year
that are programmed, I don't know if you want to touch them or not. We can...
Mrs. Gordon: For fourth year you have them, you said.
Ms. Spillman: We have contingency funding every year of our program. We
have proposed contingency funds in each year of the plan that you see before
you.
Mrs. Gordon: But the fourth year you'll...
Ms. Spillman: I don't know that we want to touch those.
Mayor Ferre: I see some people that are shaking their heads, I want to tell
you something and I don't want you to misunderstand. I will vote every single
time money for blind people and for senior citizens that need transportation
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'FEB 2 2 1979
•�
over street repairs or anything else, whether it be Black, White, Cuban
American, young, anything you want. I just don't want you to misunderstand
my position. I feel very strongly about the fact that these programs are
serving senior citizens and are serving blind people and poor children who
are delinquents and being kept off the street and I make no apologies for
that.
Mrs. Gordon: What you really mean is you are preventing delinquency by having
the program, not that they are Maurice.
Mayor Ferre: And fifty-nine thousand dollars when you are talking here in
the tune of thirty-two million dollars, I'm not going to spend anymore time
on it, let's move along.
Ma. Spillman: Well, where do we want to take it from?
Mrs. Gordon: Ok.
Mayor Ferre: Next?
Mrs. Gordon: Take it from the...
Ms. Spillman: No, I need to know where you want to take that fifty-nine
thousand from.
Mr. Lacasa: Take if from the park.
Mayor Ferre: Take it from the park.
Mr. Lacasa: Take it from the park, I want to explain this too. The question
of the park, the park is needed, but before we have a vita course in Little
Havana we would rather have the blind and the elderly and the minors and the
children or the minors as the Mayor said...
Ms. Spillman: Ok, can we move on to Manor Park then?
Mr. Octavio Blanco: Mr. Mayor?
Mayor Ferre: Yes, sir?
Mr. Octavio Blanco: I'm sorry I had to disagree with both of you, that we had to
take that from the park.
Mayor Ferre: So where do you want to take it....
Mr. Octavio Blanco: Like you said before we do have a contingency fund
who will supply to every target area in the City of Miami.
Mayor Ferre: Do we take it from the contingency fund, then you are going to
have to wait like everybody else.
Ms. Spillman: You know, I think... that means we are raising Little Havana's
allocation and I don't know if you want to do that.
Mayor Ferre: No, we don't want to do that, not at this point.
Mr. Lacasa: No, no.
Mr. Plummer: You can't do that.
Mr. Lacasa: No, no.
(BACKGROUND COMMENTS OFF THE PUBLIC RECORD)
Mrs. Gordon: I think you might realize that the funds can be replaced from
another source for the park.
Mayor Ferre: Easier.
Ms. Spillman: Well, we will try to do that.
Mrs. Gordon: And you know, we can always come to the contingency after that
at some point in time.
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•F E B 2 2 1979
Mr. Lacaea: We could always use the contingency to fund the park, if there
are monies left in the contingency.
Mr. Octavio Blanco; Wait a minute, but Armando you know what happened to
us and you are our witness, what happened to us with the neighborhood building.
When we built the community center Little Havana was... don't give me money
from the contingency fund. They got four years to pay for that building.
Ms. Spillman: No, that was... five hundred thousand was taken from contingencies
for that project.
Mr. Octavio Blanco: There vas another three hundred thousand was granted.
(BACKGROUND COMMENT OFF THE PUBLIC RECORD)
Mr. Octavio Blanco: Yes, first of all you people said we got money from
the house, but you give to somebody else. Then to another people you get...
You don't want to listen to me? When we are speaking down here of
let me tell you and you know and you got it on the record. When we come
down here we were a citizen participation program and meetings are done. I
hear you people say down here today that you always listen to them, you haven't
listened one bit to the people of Little Havana.
Ms. Spillman: We only make recommendations to the Commission for final
decision.
Mr. Oc:.•:i- Blanco: But I do believe that you people are supposed to make
the recommendations according with the Task Force of the City.
Ms. Spillman.: No, that is not correct.
Mr. Oct'.'io Blanco: So why do you appear as the citizen...
I don't think it's appropriate to discuss this at this time.
!ir. C:ta-: Tianco: I do, right here in front of the Commissioners. I
want an exglanatior.. I don't want to lose my time in anymore meetings.
Mayor Ferre: I'm sorry, I didn't following all of this.
Ms. Spillman: He is saying that staff should be responsible to base our
recommendations solely on what the citizens want and not our professional
opinions. And I was saying that...
Mayor Ferre: No.
Mr. Octavio Blanco: It's not what I said.
Ms. Spillman: Well, that's what you are saying to me.
Mr. Octavio Blanco: I said that you said down here today that you people
follow the recommendations of the Task Force and it's on the record.
Mayor Ferre: Alright, we are not going to get into that one tonight. If
you want I will call a meeting and you come and I will invite Dena and we
can have that discussion then. Ok?
(BACKGROUND COMMENT OFF THE PUBLIC RECORD)
Mayor Ferre: Alright,...
Ms. Roman: Mr. Mayor, I have one suggestion.
Mayor Ferre: On the other microphone... I think the other...
Mr. Ongie: Your name please.
Ms. Roman: I am Miriam Roman from Centro Mater. I have one suggestion, instead
of taking the money from the Riverfront Park, that the land is there and
waiting for so long, why we don't take from the Specialty Center that is
for purchase of land?
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F E B 2 2 1979
Mayor Ferre: Well, alright, let me... you can answer that, but let me put
it to you this way. Right now we are missing a million and a half dollars
from the park money, is that right?
Ms. Spillman: No, we are not missing... no, no.
Mayor Ferre: How much are we short?
Ms. Spillman: We have not firmed up the cost estimates from Parks yet, so
I can't answer that.
Mayor Ferre: Well, you know that it is well over a million dollars.
Ms. Spillman: Well, it's under budgeted, right.
Mayor Ferre: What?
Ms. Spillman: It is definitely under budgeted.
Mayor Ferre: We are under budgeted by one million dollars, we can't build
that park now anyway. There is no way we can build that park, so whether or.
not we have... Now, instead of lacking a million, we now lack a million
fifty-rine thousand dollars, ok?
Ms. Spillman: Ok, the next item...
Mr. :'lumr.r: What are we talking about?
Ms. Spillman: We are almost done. We are almost done.
Mayor Ferre: Alright, go ahead, go on. Go, go, go.
Ms. Spillman: The residents in the Manor Park area expressed concern that
tne.r (-lea was not receiving treatment with Community Development funds.
Mayer Ferre: Who was?
Ms. Spillman: This is the Manor Park area of Model City. If I could just
take a minute and respond to that.
Mayor Ferre: Alright, go ahead.
Ms. Spillman: We already have a Great Neighborhood's Program operating in
Model Cities which is the King Heights area that is in effect right now.
We had hoped to fund Manor Park, we discovered that we did not have enough
funding to start that program. What the people in Manor Park want are street
improvements and I believe housing rehabilitation. Our proposal to them is
that there is a program called the Neighborhood Housing Service from Washington
which provides housing treatment funds and we are going to attempt to obtain
funding from them for this program. Another area which we are looking into
and we have not yet discussed this with you, but we will be in the near future
as use of the housing bond fund for rehabilitation. We will be coming to you
in a few months with a proposal on that which is a possibility. The other
alternative is we can monitor our ongoing programs in rehab, see where the
neighborhoods are not using the program as much as we thought and reprogram
in the next years any extra money into the Manor Park area. We cannot start
A new program there, again it's a matter of funds and Model Cities already
has a program going on.
Mrs. Gordon: Where is that on this? Any where?
Ms. Spillman: It's on the top of page five.
Mr. Calhoun: Commissioners and Mayor, my name is Willie Calhoun, I live in
the Manor Park area at 1090 Northwest 53rd Street and we are here tonight
not because of the programs that will not be funded in the fifth, sixth and
seventh year, we are here that we received no programs funded in the first,
second, third and fourth year. We have received nothing at all in our area
and we feel that now is the time, at least we should get something. We have
received absolutely nothing. No streets, no trees, no nothing and we think
that the time is now. We hear everybody asking about the additional funds
for this and additional funds for that, we are asking for some funds. Give
us ten dollars may be we will be satisfied with that, but give us something.
We are tired of being denied our rights. We feel as if we have been over
looked long enough. We have waited patiently, patiently for you to find and
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F E B 2 2 1979
do something for us. We have not made any noise, we have been quiet.
Mrs. Gordon: You know the squeaky wheel makes the noise is the one who gets
heard. You should have made some noise.
Mr. Calhoun: That's why we are here now Mrs. Gordon and we will be here from
now on.
Mr. Plummer: Well, let me ask you a question. Alright, you know, in all
fairness. You are saying as I understand it, that you, Manor Park area have
not been getting a portion of the Model Cities portion. Is that what you
are saying?
Mr. Calhoun: Yes, we are saying that we have received nothing, absolutely
nothing.
Mr. Plummer.: Alright, well, excuse me.
Mr. Calhoun: Yes, yes.
Mr. Plummer: As I see it, obviously you are lumped ir. with Model Cities.
Mr. Calhoun: Yes.
Mr. Plummer: Ok. Now, what you are further stating is that you, the Manor
Park area of Model Cities has not even been getting the bone.
Mr. Calhoun: Amen, sir.
Mr. Plummer: Ok. Now, the question has to be to you, have you the people
of Manor Park done that screaming loud and long at the Model Cities Target
Project Area?
Mr. Calhoun: We have been asked to present programs, we have been asked to
present programs for the fifth, sixth and seventh year. We presented three,
funding, none.
Mr. Plummer: But have you done that at the Model Cities Target Project Area?
Mr. Calhoun: That's how we came up with the three, Commissioner.
Ms. Spillman: Yes, let... if I could clarify. We had anticipated funding
one of our Great Neighborhood Programs in Manor Park, that was last year.
Since we started operating the program we have realized that we don't have
enough money to do it. Now, what I would like to ask though, is what... Are
you most interested in street improvements, housing rehab, what is your
primary interest?
Mr. Calhoun: Our primary interest is street improvement, if we can't get...
we understand the dollar, if we can't get street improvement give us the
acquisition of deteriorating of the vacant land. Give us something, please.
But you have not allocated one dollar for our area and we don't think that's
fair, we honestly don't think it's fair to us.
Mrs. Gordon: I don't either. I'm sorry.
Ms. Spillman: If I can try to quickly respond to this. The only option in
my mind for Manor Park funding is perhaps a level of about between a hundred
fifteen, two hundred thousand a year in which would have to come out of fifth
sixth and seventh year contingencies.
Mrs. Gordon: Well, I don't care where you get it, you got to put something
in there.
Mr. Plummer: Yes, but Dena, how...
Ms. Spillman: And that's the only place there is.
Mr. Plummer: How do... who... In other words, tell this man and tell me at
the same time, who established the Model Cities target area?
Ms. Spillman: The Model Cities target area was established before CD ever
came into existence and that was the old Model Cities area.
Mr. Plummer: Alright, then...
Ms. Spillman: And we just continued with that.
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F E B 2 2 1979
Mr. Plummer: ... for both of our edification, why isn't Manor Park a target
area unto itself?
Ms. Spillman: It's not a target area unto itself. Model Cities is a very
large target area, you know that we have Martin Luther King Boulevard in there
and a very deteriorated area which has been receiving most of the attention.
Manor Park is one of the nicer neighborhoods in the City and really it needs
some maintanence activities, but it's not a blighted neighborhood as we know
of.
Mrs. Gordon: Does it need housing rehabs?
Mr. Plummer: Well, what I'm trying to say in so many words is that, you know,
this man has got to understand that we did not set-up the guide rules as far
as the Model Cities area is concerned, that they were set-up and you know,
if we address you for example, how do we address the Downtown area without
addressing some other portion of the Downtown area. I understand fully what
you are saying, don't get me wrong.
Mr. Calhoun: But do you, sir? What I'm saying also is that the priorities
of the work was picked out by our staff. I mean, the street improvements for
our area could have been number two along with some of the things for King
Heights area. This is what we are saying, at least you cannot take all of
the items for our area and put them at the bottom of the list and this has
been going on not for just this funding period, for all of the funding periods.
Now, w_ w.=re some time ago had sewer to be put down under capital improvement,
the neighborhood itself felt that we would remain quiet hoping that at the
time that our sewer was put down, that the City at that time since we have
asked for nothing else would give us our street improvement, you know, at the
same time, but this was not to be so. When we come in for this we was told
no, there is no funds for it. So we said "what can we get?" We were asked
the tc give a list of priorities which we did.
Mrs. Gcrc:on: Well, it's going to be funded for... Dena, what did you say
you were going to find available now, how much?
Ms. Spillman: Well, there is a couple of things that we can target into that
area that are existing.
Mrs. Gordon: What?
Ms. Spillman: Our Building Demolition Program for vacant vandalized structures
which does help clean up a neighgborhood.
Mrs. Gordon: What else?
Ms. Spillman: And we have City-wide tree planting money that we can use and
put trees in there.
Mrs. Gordon: Alright, what else?
Ms. Spillman: That's all I can talk about.
Mrs. Gordon: You just said you can get some out of the contingency funds.
Ms. Spillman: We have contingency funds, that's the last option.
Mrs. Gordon: Yes, but...
Mr. Calhoun: Commissioner, would you do this for us and would you ask staff
to try to identify some money for us and let us meet back with staff and they
in turn give us the amount to something.
Mrs. Gordon: Alright.
Mr. Calhoun: I'm pretty sure that in their intelligence that they can find
something if you request them to and then we will meet with them as far as
how much money they have and the type of...
Mrs. Gordon: Ok, they got the message. You got the message, ok.
Mr. Calhoun: Thank you, very much.
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F E B 2 2 1979
Ms. Spillman: Ok, is there anybody here to talk about the purchase of the
YMCA site? Alright, there is one other thing I just want you to be aware of.
Someone at our last hearing recommended that the social service agencies are
not being compensated for inflation which takes place and it does and we
have recommended that starting in the fifth year they receive a five percent
increase each year to reflect inflationary cost:. This would be for all social
service projects.
Mrs. Gordon: Ok.
Mr. Plummer: Five percent on ten percent inflation.
Ms. Spillman: Yes, well, do you want to do ten?
Mrs. Gordon: Well, we are going to have to exercise economy...
Mayor Ferre: Anything else?
Ms. Spillman: I don't think... that's all that we have.
Mrs. Gordon: Are you finished? Hallelujah.
Mr. P1'irrger: What about Wynwood?
Mayor Err-e: Oh, God...
Ms. Spillman: No, nc one is here from Wynwood.
Maycr Ferre: I can't believe that.
Mr. Splliran: No, Jose went home happy.
Mrs. C r','r:: Maurice, it's a quarter after nine already.
Mr. Eli.= .r: They must have drugged him.
Mayor Ferre: Alright, it's a quarter after nine ladies and gentlemen, I think
we are just about through and I thank all of you for your patience. It's taken
us three: hours to get through this, but here we are. Is there a motion?
Mrs. Gordon: Move.
Mayor Ferre: Moved. Second?
Mr. Plummer: Wait a minute, what is the motion?
Mayor Ferre: The motion is a Resolution Authorizing the City Manager to
submit a grant application to the United States Department of Housing and Urban
Development for the proposed Community Development Program during 1979 thur
1982 in accordance with the attached project allocations which have been approved
at duly held...
Mrs. Gordon: As amended.
Mr. Plummer: As amended.
Mayor Ferre: ... public hearing as amended and further authorizing the City
Manager upon approval of said grant by HUD to accept the same and negotiate
the necessary implementing contracts and agreements subject to the approval
of the City Commission, subject to the approval of the City Commission prior
to the execution thereof.
Ms. Spillman: Of the contracts?
Mr. Lacasa: Second.
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: He said prior.
Mayor Ferre: There is a motion and a second, further discussion, call the roll.
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'FEB 2 2 1979
The following resolution vas introduced by Commissioner Gordon, who moved
its adoption:
RESOLUTION NO. 79-98
A RESOLUTION AUTHORIZING THE CITY MANAGER TO
SUBMIT A GRANT APPLICATION TO THE U. S. DEPARTMENT
OF HOUSING AND URBAN DEVELOPMENT (HUD) FOR
THE PROPOSED COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT PROGRAM DUR-
ING 1979-82, IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE ATTACHED
PROJECT ALLOCATIONS WHICH HAVE BEEN APPROVED AT
DULY HELD PUBLIC HEARINGS; AND FURTHER AUTHOR-
IZING THE CITY MANAGER, UPON APPROVAL OF SAID
GRANT BY HUD, TO ACCEPT THE SAME AND NEGOTIATE
THE NECESSARY IMPLEMENTING CONTRACTS AND AGREE-
MENTS, SUBJECT TO THE APPROVAL OF THE CITY
COMMISSION PRIOR TO EXECUTION THEREOF.
(Here follows body of resolution, omitted here and on file
in the Office of the City Clerk).
Upon being seconded by Commissioner Lacasa, the resolution was passed and
adopted by the following vote:
AYES:
NOES: None.
Commissioner Rose Gordon
Commissioner Armando E. Lacasa
Commissioner (Rev.) Theodore R. Gibson
Vice -Mayor J. L. Plummer, Jr.
Mayor Maurice A. Ferre
Mayor 'F re: Alright, thank you, thank you, thank you.
Mr. llu;nm.:r: 1 want to tell you one thing. I want to be informed when the
first dollar is spent in that garment area, before the first dollar is spent.
Mayor Ferre: Plummer it's nine fifteen, we've got to go.
Mr. Plummer: I'm telling you that, I'm putting it on the record.
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158
FEB 2 2 1979
1
Authorize City Manager
18. to employ: DEMARCHE ASSOCIATES as Financial Advisors to
TRUSTEES OF THE MIAMI CITY GENERAL EMPLOYEES RETIREMENT PLAN
to measure investment performance 6 audit or plans portfolio
The following resolution was introduced by Commissioner Gordon who
moved its adoption:
RESOLUTION NO. 79-99
A RESOLUTION AUTHORIZING THE CITY MANAGER TO EMPLOY THE
DEMARCHE ASSOCIATES AS FINANCIAL ADVISORS TO THE TRUSTEES
OF THE MIAMI CITY GENERAL EMPLOYEES RETIREMENT PLAN TO
PROVIDE SERVICES DURING THE COMING YEAR IN CONNECTION
WITH THE MEASUREMENT OF INVESTMENT PERFORMANCE AND WITH
THE AUDIT OF THE PORTFOLIO OF THE SAID PLAN WITH FUNDS
THEREFOR PAYABLE IN THE AMOUNT OF EIGHTEEN THOUSAND
($18,000)(CASH OR HARD DOLLARS), IN QUARTERLY INSTALLMENTS
FROM THE PLAN TRUST FUND
(Here follows body of resolution, omitted here and
on file in the Office of the City Clerk)
Upon being seconded by Mr. Plummer, the resolution was passed and adopted
by the following vote: AYES: Commissioner Plummer, Gibson, Gordon, Lacasa and
Mayor Ferre. NOES: None.
19, APPROVE EMPLOYMENT OF PAN AMERICAN BANK, N. A. TO PROVIDE
CUSTODIAL SERVICES FOR THE PORTFOLIO OF THE CITY OF MIAMI
GENERAL EMPLOYEES RETIREMENT PLAN
The following resolution was introduced by Mrs. Gordon, who moved its
adoption:
RESOLUTION 79-100
A RESOLUTION APPROVING THE EMPLOYMENT OF THE BOARD OF
TRUSTEES OF THE MIAMI CITY GENERAL EMPLOYEES RETIREMENT
PLAN OF THE PAN AMERICAN BANK, N. A. TO PROVIDE CUSTODIAL
SERVICES FOR THE SECURITY PORTFOLIO OF THE SAID PLAN'S
TRUST PROPERTY IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE ATTACHED SCHEDULE
AND BACKGROUND SUBMITTED BY SAID PAN AMERICAN BANK, N.A.
AND WITH THE ATTACHED AGREEMENT
(Here follows body of resolution, omitted here and
on file in the Office of the City Clerk)
Upon being seconded by Mr. Plummer, the resolution was passed and adopted
by the following vote:
AYES: Commissioner Plummer
Commissioner Gordon
Commissioner Lacasa
Commissioner Gibson
Mayor Ferre
NOES: None
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FEJ
1
AMEND CITY OF MILOYEES
20. SECOND READING ORDINANCE: RETIREMENT SYSTEM AND PROVIDE FOR
PAYBACK PROCEDURE OF SERVICE CREDITS
FOR MILITARY LEAVE
Mr. Plummer: Second reading ordinance, I move it.
Mrs. Gordon: Second.
AN ORDINANCE ENTITLED -
AN ORDINANCE AMENDING THE MIAMI CITY EMPLOYEES RETIREMENT
SYSTEM (ORDINANCE NO. 2230) JANUARY 1, 1940 AS AMENDED)
AS APPEARING IN CODIFICATION FORM AS A PART OF CHAPTER 2
OF THE CODE OF THE CITY OF MIAMI, FLORIDA, 1957 AS AMENDED
MORE PARTICULARLY AMENDING SECTION 89, AS AMENDED, OF SAID
CHAPTER 2; PROVIDING FOR A PROCEDURE FOR PAYBACK OF SERVICE
CREDITS FOR MILITARY LEAVE BY REQUIRING THE FILING OF A
FORM WITH THE BOARD CONTAINING AN ELECTION TO EXERCISE
THIS OPTION, FURTHER PROVIDING THAT SAID FORMS SHALL BE
SENT TO ELIGIBLE MEMBERS BY REGISTERED MAIL UPON THE
r c 7!r4'LETION OF TEN YEARS OF CREDITABLE SERVICE;
FURTHER PROVIDING THAT SAID FORM SHALL BE RETURNED TO THE
BOARD WITHIN TTHIRTY (30) DAYS OF RECEIPT BY THE MEMBERS;
FURTHER PROVIDING THAT SAID PAYBACK MAY BE MADE IN A LUMP
SUM OR INSTALLMENTS NOT TO EXCEED FIVE YEARS; FURTHER
PROVIDING THAT IF ANY MEMBER WHO ELECTS TO MAKE SAID
PAYBACK BECOMES ELIGIBLE FOR DISABILITY RETIREMENT PRIOR
TO COMPLETING SAID PAYBACK, THE DISABILITY BENEFIT SHALL
Bi REDUCED BY THE OUTSTANDING BALANCE, CONTAINING A
REPEALER CLAUSE, A SEVERABILITY PROVISION AND AN EFFECTIVE
U=.IL
Passed on its first reading by title at the meeting of January 18, 1979,
it was taker: up tor its second and final reading by title and adoption.
On motion of Vice Mayor Plummer, seconded by Commissioners Gordon, the ordinance
was thereupon given its second and final reading by title and passed and adopted
by the following vote:
AYES: Commissioner Gordon
Commissioner Plummer
Commissioner Lacasa
Commissioner Gibson
Mayor Ferre
NOES: None
SAID ORDINANCE WAS DESIGNATED ORDINANCE NO. 8898
The City Attorney read the ordinance into the public record and announced
that copies were available to the members of the City Commission and to the public.
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FED..:.. ��/:
AMEND CITY OF MIAMI EMPLOYEES RETIREMENT SYSTEM
21. FIRST READING PROVIDING THAT EMPLOYEES OF RETIREMENT SYSTEM
ORRITAREA: SHALL BE EMPLOYEES OF THE BOARD; PROVIDE FOR
TRANSFER OF ADMINISTRATIVE FUNCTIONS TO A
PROFESSIONAL PENSION ADMIN. ACCOUNTING ETC.
Mr. Plummer: I move 32 A.
Mrs. Gordon: Second.
Mayor Ferre: Do you want to discuss this Mr. Grassie?
Mr. Grassie: Mr. Mayor, I wish that the Finance Director were here because he
has been intimately involved in this discussion and he was expecting it much
earlier in the day, I guess. I don't know why he didn't stay. He is probably
someplace in the building but he isn't here right now.
He has been following this on a day to day basis.
Mrs. Gordon: Well since this is first reading, he could be present for the second
reading.
Mayor Ferre: What is the problem? I don't understand because I want to vote
for it if I can but explain the problem.
Mrs. Grassie: The principle problem is that this is one more step in making it
more difficult for the City Commission to control costs in the area of pension.
Every step that you take of this type makes it less likely that you will be able
to control your budget with regard to pension costs.
Mayor Ferre: Thats right, we are inching away.
Mr. Plummer: Let me just state this to you, that Mr. Mayor, I accept what Mr.
Grassie states but it makes a presumption that is not in my estimation, realistic.
The presumption is that this is being proposed cannot be more effective than what
is in position today. It is the contention of the Board that that which exists
today and the matters relating to pension is unrealistic, ineffective and does not
do a good job. It is proposed by the Board who is made up of these representatives
that these 3 alternatives that are given to the Board in latitude, would in fact
do a much finer Job, make the people who are doing the work responsive to the Board
whose duty it is to monitor these actions. This is really, I'll shut up, unless
Mr. Gunderson is here to deferl his actions or statements but I will leave it at
that, it is the feeling of the Board and I think I speak for both boards and if
I don't, then somebody correct me but at least for my Board, that that which is today
is ineffective. We are proposing 3 alternatives of latitude to let this Board make
decisions which they feel and remember that each trustee of that Board, of both
boards, has a duty to perform and to monitor and are held accountable for the deeds
that they do.
Mayor Ferre: Yes but you can't get away from the basic fact that if you go back
for the last 10 or 15 years, this City of Miami Commission, and I have been on it
for many years, but we have been slowly giving it away, giving away & giving away -
Mr. Plummer: It has nothing to do with the item in front of you.
Mayor Ferre: You are one of the guys that is always coming back and saying that
we are slowly going broke, you know right now, 50c out of every dollar we collect
in taxes, go to the pension system.
Mr. Plummer: For 40c, you are correct.
Mayor Ferre: Okay 40c.
Mr. Plummer: This item which is before you is not going to increase the cost
one iota. What it will do, is hold those people who are doing the day to day
operations directly responsible to the Board of Trustees whose duty it is to
monitor. It is not Mr. Gunderson. It is the Board.
Mr. Grassie: The fact is Commissioner, that the Board sits every 2 or 3 weeks
and in the meantime, those staff people get no supervision under the proposal
that you have in front of you and its simply, when the charter of this city gives
the responsibility to the Finance Director to be the ultimate guardian of your
financial system, it simply is not good practice to make this kind of a division
of staff.
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Pb. Plummer: Mr. Grassie, you are correct, but you are wrong. You are correct
that the charter of this city gives the responsibility of city funds to the
Finance Director but Mr. Grassie let me caution you sir, that money which is
contributed and put into that fund is no longer city funds and as such is not the
responsibility of the finance director, that is monies that are set aside for the
pension people of this City and you can't take that money back, I can't take that
money back and it is monies set aside into a fund for the recepients and as such,
Mr. Gunderson, excuse me, the Finance Director, does not have any responsibility
under the charter.
Mayor Ferre: Yes, but we are slowly inching away from the ability to control and --
Mrs. Gordon: We are not supposed to control those trust funds, those funds belong
to the trust and the trustees are responsible, not the Commissioners.
Mayor Ferre: Who is going to be supervising these people that are going to be
employed? Who is their supervisor?
Mr. Plummer: The Board.
Mayor Ferre: The Board? The Board isn't around, the Board meets once in awhile,
who is going to see if they come in at 9 in the morning and leave at 5?
Mr. Plummer: Mr. Mayor, the same people- you don't sit here and watch your staff,
nor do I.
Mayor Ferre: Speak for yourself.
Mr. Plummer: Well if you do, I admire you for it.
Mr. Sullivan: Mr. Mayor, on behalf of the Fraternal Order of Police, we would urge
that this be passed and to give you some history and answer some of the questions
that you have been asking, I would like to turn it over to Mr. Klausner to give you
some history on it.
Mr. Klausner: Last October, the Florida State Legislature passed an addition to
the Florida Statutes which says that every retirement system or plan including
municipal retirement plans, shall provide for an administrator and feduciaries
with authority to control, manage and operate the retirement system.
In response to that state statute which takes precedence over our own city code,
Mayor Ferre: Thank you, I am ready to do, will you call the vote?
AN ORDINANCE ENTITLED -
AN ORDINANCE AMENDING THE MIAMI CITY EMPLOYEES RETIREMENT
SYSTEM (ORDINANCE 2230, JANUARY 1, 1940, AS AMENDED) , AS
APPEARING IN CODIFIED FORM AS PART OF CHAPTER 2 OF THE
CODE OF THE CITY OF MIAMI, FLORIDA, 1957, AS AMENDED, MORE
PARTICULARLY AMENDING SECTION 90, AS AMENDED, OF SAID CHAPT-
ER 2, PROVIDING FOR THE ADMINISTRATION OF THE RETIREMENT
SYSTEM; PROVIDING THAT THE EMPLOYEES OF THE RETIREMENT
SYSTEM SHALL BE EMPLOYEES OF THE BOARD; PROVIDING FOR THE
EMPLOYMENT AND EVALUATION OF SAID EMPLOYEES; PROVIDING FOR
OPTION OF A JOINT SYSTEM PLAN COMMITTEE FOR THE MANAGEMENT
OF SAID EMPLOYEES; PROVIDING, SUBJECT TO COMMISSION APPROVAL
FOR THE TRANSFER OF SAID ADMINISTRATION FUNCTIONS TO A
PROFESSIONAL PENSION ADMINISTRATION; PROVIDING FOR A UNIFORM
METHOD OF ACCOUNTING AND ACCOUNTING REVIEW BY THE DIRECTOR
OF FINANCE; CONTAINING A REPEALER CLAUSE, A SEVERABILITY
PROVISION AND AN EFFECTIVE DATE
Was introduced by Mr. Plummer and seconded by Commissioner Lacasa and
passed on its first reading by title by the following vote:
AYES: Commissioner Plummer
Commissioner Lacasa
Commissioner Gibson
Commissioner Gordon
Mayor Ferre
NOES: None
The City Attorney read the ordinance into the public record and announced
that copies were available to the members of the City Commission and to the
public.
162 FEB
97c
-
22.
FIRST READING :.,aNANCE:
Amend City of Miami Employees RETIREMENT PLAN - Provide that
employees of the RETIREMENT PLAN shall be employees of the BOARD;
provide for transfer of administration functions to a professional
pension administration, accounting etc.
Mrs. Gordon: Move 32 B.
Mr. Plummer: Second.
AN ORDINANCE ENTITLED -
AN ORDINANCE AMENDING THE MIAMI CITY EMPLOYEES RETIREMENT
PLAN (ORDINANCE 5624, MAY 2, 1956) AS APPEARING IN CODIFIED
FORM AS PART OF CHAPTER 2 OF THE CODE OF THE CITY OF MIAMI,
FLORIDA, 1957, AS AMENDED, MORE PARTICULARLY AMENDING SECTION
108 AS AMENDED, OF SAID CHAPTER 2, PROVIDING FOR THE ADMIN-
ISTRATION OF TY'E RETIREMENT PLAN; PROVIDING THAT THE EMPLOYEES
OF THE RETIREME T PLAN SHALL BE EMPLOYEES OF THE BOARD; PROV-
IDING FOR THE wliPLOYMENT AND EVALUATION OF SAID EMPLOYEES;
PROVIDING FOR THE OPEION OF A JOINT SYSTEM/PLAN COMMITTEE
FOR THE MANAGEMENT OF SAID EMPLOYEES; PROVIDING SUBJECT TO
COM4ISSION APPROVAL FOR THE TRANSFER OF SAID ADMINISTRATION
FUNCTIONS TO A PROFESSIONAL PENSION ADMINISTRATION, PROVIDING
FOR A UNIFORM METHOD OF ACCOUNTING AND ACCOUNTING REVIEW
PY THE DIRECTOR OF FINANCE; CONTAINING A REPEALER CLAUSE, A
SEVERABILITY PROVISION AND AN EFFECTIVE DATE.
Was introduced by Mrs. Gordon and seconded by Mr. Plummer and passed on
irs first reading by title by the following vote:
AYES: Commissioner Plummer
Commissioner Lacasa
Commissioner Gibson
Commissioner Gordon
Mayor Ferre
NOES: None
The City Attorney read the ordinance into the public record and announced
that copies were available to the members of the city commission and to the
public.
23. DEFERRAL OF ACCEPTANCE JULES BROTHERS UNIFORM INC.
OF BID: (Uniforms for the Police Department)
Mayor Ferre: Was this the low bid, Mr. Manager?
Mr. Grassie: Yes it is low bid Mr. Mayor.
Mayor Ferre: And are you against it?, You are okay, lets hear your problem.
Mr. Norman: It, name is George Norman, I am president of Lamar Uniforms in Miami.
According to our tabluations, Lamar Uniforms is our low bidder and I can prove
that right here and now.
Based on the bid submitted to us by the City of Miami, we carefully went over the
specifications, and prior to submitting the bid, we noticed that in Group I, Item 4,
of the bid proposal sheet, Ladies Uniform slacks were asked for.
In reading the specifications, we were confused because it pointed out #11 -
they asked for ladies slacks in stock sizes in 100% woven polyester.
Then it went on, OR Double knit custom made slacks made to measure. Now in reading
these specifications, I was confused and I did not know what to do so I discussed
it with my manager and 1 said to Mr. Sadalla who is behind me here, I said Joe,
please call the City Purchasing Agent, Mr. Mullins to get a clarification on item #4.
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Mr. Norman: (Conted) There is also another item which I will get into later.
Now do we bid Item 4? There is only one line to bid it on. Mr. Sadalla called
Mr. Mullins, the Purchasing Agent, to get clarification and the clarification
we got was, Yes you are right, we advise you to bid 2 ways. Bid it stock sizes
and then submit and indicate that you are going to bid it for custom made uniforms.
We did that. There was nothing on the bid sheet indicating Bid it 4A or 4B so
therefore, we questioned it. Then there was item 24 asking for coveralls including
lettering. I have the bid in front of me and on Item 4, Lamar Uniforms bid $11.40.
Mr. Plummer: That's for "In -Stock"?
Mr. Norman: In Stock. And custom made, we bid $34.30. Labor is very high.
Mr. Plummer: Mr. Mullins, can you quickly tell me what the bid was of Jules Bros
on Item 4A and 4B.
Mr. Mullins: Mr. Vice Mayor, I would like to let him finish with the next item
and let me go on with the rebuttal.
Mr.. Norman: The next item on coveralls, asking for coveralls including lettering
per unit, your SWAT Team, your K9 Team etc. which would constitute various lettering
on the back of each coverall. We again questioned this and we were told to put in
a price of the coverall and then put in a special price separately, for the
lettering, which we did.
Now, what I am stating to the Commission, and to the City Manager, and to everybody
listening to me is this. That, if Lamar Uniforms who tried to the right thing by
questioning these things that were on the bid that were not clear to us and we were
verbally told by Mr. Mullins who we respect and honor his opinion being the purch-
asing agent of the City of Miami, to bid Item #4 and distinguish between stock and
custom made and the same thing pertaining to Item #24, it is our opinion if we as
a bidder were told to do that, all other bidders should have been told to bid that
way. We no longer can assume that if there was no 4A or 4B on Jules Brothers bid,
I can't accept the fact that because he did it "stock", we assume a few dollars higher
than us and did not indicate anything in custom made, that this can be accepted.
If you take the tabluation on our $11.40, we would end up $1,800 lower on the bid
but if you took it the other way around and took our custom made price which Jules
Brothers didn't indicate either way, now, we are not questioning how the man bid,
that is certainly up to him, but if we were told to indicate stock and custom made,
even though he bid one item, item 4, one price, if he meant, and we don't know this,
if he meant stock and custom made, he certainly should have indicated it, just the
way we were told to indicate it and the same thing prevails in the coveralls.
Therefore, in our opinion, we think this is unfair, totally unfair, and we cannot
see how they can award Jules Brothers this bid.
Mr. Plummer: How much were the coveralls on your bid?
Mr. Norman: We bid $15.40 and then we submitted an addendum of 15c per letter
which we were told to do.
Mayor Ferre: Mr. Mullins, you have the microphone all to yourself now.
Mr. Mullins: The other bidder, Jules Uniforms representative was here since
3 o'clock, and he had to go pick up his Father at the airport and he said he would
try to make it back but apparently he didn't.
Mr. Mayor and Mr. Vice Mayor, Commissioners, in the very unpopular position of
Purchasing Agent for the City of Miami, I tell a lot of people to do things and
a lot of people not to do things. But, as the Purchasing Agent of the City of Miami,
I take exception to the following statements made by Lamar Uniforms in their
letter to Commissioner Gordon.
#1 on Blue Uniform Slacks- Policewoman "That the Purchasing Agent told them to
enter both prices separately" The specifications clearly show that standard slacks
are to be bid or made to measure slacks. This fact was brought to the attention of
Mr. Sadala during the telephone conversation and he was told that since the made to
measure slacks were an option, and the bid pricing sheet did not contain a pricing
space for both types of slacks, he could include a separate price for the made to
measure if he wanted to.
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12- Coveralls, lettering. "That he was told again by Mr. Mullins to bid the
coveralls separately and indicate the cost per letter separately" There was no
question raised during the telephone conversation with Mr. Sadala about the
lettering. Again, the specifications clearly state that lettering is to be included
in the bid price of the coveralls. Bids were received from Lamar Uniforms and Jules
Brothers Uniforms Inc. The bid from Jules Brothers Uniforms did not take exception
to the specifications or the pricing method. Jules advised purchasing that they
bid a combined price for the slacks, based upon information supplied by the
Police Department Property Unit, that approximately 502 of the policemen may
select the made to measure option. They also included the cost of lettering in
their bid price of the coveralls. Based on the tablulation of prices bid, and
taking into consideration the 502 estimated usage of the made to measure slacks
for policemen, the total bid of Jules Brothers Uniforms is approximately S840.00
less, and this is on an annual estimated usage and is therefore, the lowest and
best bid. Thank you.
Mr. Plummer: Mr. Mullins, in reference to the item 4, the price of $15.50 from
Jules Brothers, is that in -stock, or is that made to order?
Mr. Mullins: Either one. Jules indicated to me that this was an optional item
and they bid a combined price.
Mr. Norman: S r, ::rct is negotiating after the bid. Mr. Sadala is here to swear
on a steck cf ''_tiles, lit - that he spoke to you on coveralls, and he also spoke
to you aboi' 1.-cr.' #4, which he was told to bid them separately and again, the only
mistake we made and I stand here and admit it and I am ashamed as a businessman to
admit, that I did not ask for written addendum.
Mr. Plumzer: Do we have anything in writing Mr. Mullins? It doesn't stand to
reason tc, rE, and I don't know either one of these companies, that a company
can pro•.' in -stock and the same thing custom made for the same price.
That don': ' .r Tense to me. I am not asking the question of you, its got to be
the bidder, how in the hell can you buy a suit for $100 and get a custom made
suit for °1'1^ cu can't do it.
That doesn't naie sense to me. All I am asking of you Mr. Mullins, do we have
something ir writing fro: Jules Brothers that the option is ours? 0r is there
anything indicating on the bid?
Mr. Mullins: Well Mr. Plummer, I would answer that by saying the fact that the
specifications state lit "off -she shelf stype" or the "made to measure style".
And there is only one price. The specifications clearly state.
Mrs. Gordon: Its not clear to me.
Mr. Plummer: Well I would have to see the bid. Where in here does it say
Off -the shelf or custom made?
(Background conversation) with Mr. Norman.
Where in the bid does it say the option?
Mr. Norman: It doesn't.
Mr. Plummer: Well then why did you come up with an option?
Mr. Norman: Because we were confused by the specifications. It says OR bid
this and on the last paragraph, all slacks to be individual measurements and
individually cut to insure proper fit which indicates in the uniform industry
that this is custom made. It has 2 sets of specifications in here. Two
materials, two different styles, one for stock and one for custom made.
(Inaudible background conversation -several people speaking at once)
Mr. Plummer: I can only listen to one at a time Sir.
Mr. Mullins, do you understand his point?
Mr. Mullins: I do Mr. Vice -Mayor, but there were only 2 bids and one took no
exception to it so I have to accept the other bidders statement that he at the
risk of maybe having to supply 200 pairs of custom policewoman's trousers at
$15.45 is the city's gain.
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W. Norman: There is also no indication Mr. Mullins, of what amount would be
used for custom made or stock, which we didn't know about until after the bid
and then we got a call from the police department asking us which is which and
so many women are going to use custom made and so many stock which is not
indicated on the bid either. We are not mad at you Sir. We are saying that this
was a misleading bid accidentally, we are not blaming the City and we are not
arguing with the City, we are merely saying it is not fair and in our opinion
we are the low bidder and Jules Brothers was not told how to bid this the way we
were, his bid should be thrown and we either should be awarded it or the entire
bid should be thrown out.
Mr. Plummer: Mr. Mayor, there is definitely a gray area. One says, that the top
portion that you shall provide off of a shelf from 6 to 26 sizes or is an alternative.
The alternative is that you shall make each one individually - to fit individually
If the man says to me the other company bid them both at the same price.
Mr. Sadala: If you put out a specification on a police car with no equipment,
automatic transmission and no equipment and you say OR fully equipped with the
heavy duty rear end, lights, radios etc., which is exactly what we are talking
about. There was no indication on the bid sheet where you enter the price which
item was which. That was the reason that it was questioned to begin with.
Mr. Norman: We tried to be honest and question the thing properly to bid it
fairly arc to bid it honestly, and we end up in getting in trouble.
All we tried to do was get a clarification and I know right now, we did not get
a written addendum which again is stupid on my part, but we had to assume when
Mr. Mv:lins told my manager, Mr. Sadala how to bid it, we also have to assume he
told Jules Brothers how to bid it. There was no indication on Jules Brothers bid
of 4A or 4fi and assuming that the man meant$15.40 for stock and $15.40 for custom
mac& , if 11E wanted to bid it that way, thats fine, he should have indicated it
like did. Also, the same thing pertaining to the coveralls which is flatly
der.ieu by ..r . Mullins.
Mrs. Gordon: Lid, the other company, Jules, how do you know that this is for
either one? Pid you call them for a clarification or anything? When?
Mr. Mul]in': Yes Maam, I did, after the bids were opened.
Rev. Gibson: Let me ask this Sir, based on what I heard you say and him say,
you are better off not getting the bid.
Mayor Fevre: Because this is the worst coverall case we have ever heard.
Rev. Gibson: Evidently - how much does the other man say he wants?
Mr. Mullins: $15.45 per pair.
Rev. Gibson: How much is stock/or otherwise is $15.40? You want $15.40 stock?
Mr. Norman: No Sir, $11.40.
Rev. Gibson: What about custom made?
Mr. Norman: $35.00 Sir
Rev. Gibson: Suppose all of the employees come and say, I want my uniform
custom made. He has to produce them for fifteen dollars and change.
I am a laymen, I am not in your line. Sad thing is most of the professional
write, the way the professionals deal and talk. We who are up here, lay people,
and I preach to lay people, so I have to be explicit, so that when I say that
I want you to accept the master, they know I mean accepting.
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Rev. Gibson: (Cont'd) I vill tell the City this. If I were those policemen or
anybody else, I would have every uniform made to order, so that guy, let me show
you what I am doing, if he lied. he is caught in his lie and he will lost his
shirt based on your figures. Yours is twice as much if it is made to order.
Now, I maintain the "out" is there. I don't like it, but the "out" is there.
"Out" in this instance is in favor of the employees. Isn't that what everybody
else hears?
Mr. Norman: What you are saying right now, if I was in the position of Jules
Brothers on a $127,000 bid. and if I was asked after the bid opening, you know
if you study the tabulations based on the way you bid, do you mean stock or
custom made,for $127,000 Father, for approximately 100 pair of slacks, I might
be inclined to lose $15 or $20 on the overall bid after negotiating it.
If I knew ahead of time, which is obvious, we know our business, and knew ahead
of time how to bib the bid by inquiring about it, we weren't stupid to turn
around and bid stock and custom made trousers at the same prices. Its totally
impossible in the industry.
Mayor Ferre: Mr. Norman, I have tried to let this go as much as I can out of
fairness to you and out of courtesy to you but there has to be a limit. We are
coming to that point I think very quickly now. You have had your opportunity to
express your opinion. I can't frankly tell you that I understand all the details
of all this. Its complicated, who does what to who and when and all that and thank
God its coveralls, imagine if it were pantyhose or something like that.
Anyway, I am at a point now when I think we need to come to a conclusion, so I
would like to know what the will of this Commission is on that.
Mrs. Gordon: I don't know but its not a clean cut decision anyone can make here.
I don't see how, until we hear from Jules and get his side of the story.
Mayor Ferre: All right, this item is deferred to the next commission meeting.
Mrs. Gordon moves, Father Gibson seconds until we get Jules here and we will have
to go through this again. Next time, will you schedule for us to do this in the
morning rather than at night. I don't mean in the morning after midnight, I mean
the morning before. Thank you gentlemen on the deferral.
Thereupon on motion of Mrs. Gordon, seconded by Reverend Gibson, the matter
was deferred to March 8 Commission Meeting by a unanimous vote.
24. AUTHORIZE CITY N.E'.iJAGER
TO EXECUTE ANEIIDATORY
AGREEMENT / 2
RESTAIMMT ASSOCIATES IIDUSTRIES
07 FLORIDA IIC. for lease of
restaurant facility at i!IAWIU"t.
Mayor Ferre: Do you recommend this Mr. Mtanager?
Mr. Grassie: Yes
The following resolution was introduced by Commissioner Plummer who
moved its adoption:
RESOLUTION 79-101
A RESOLUTION AUTHORIZING THE CITY MANAGER TO EXECUTE AN
AMENDATORY AGREEMENT (AMENDMENT ,2) AMENDING THE ORIGINAL
AGREEMENT WITH RESTAURANT ASSOCIATES INDUSTRIES, INC.,;
SAID AGREEMENT HAVING BEEN ASSIGNED AUGUST 1, 1970 TO
ST.CLAIRS bF NORTH MIAMI, INC. WHOSE FIRM NAME WAS SUBSEQUENTLY
CHANGED TO RESTAURANT ASSOCIATES INDUSTRIES OP FLORIDA, INC.:
SAID ORIGINAL AGREEMENT PROVIDING FOR THE LEASE OF THE
RESTAURANT FACILITY AT MIAMARINA
(Here follows body of resolution, omitted here and
on file in the Office of the City Clerk)
Upon being seconded by Mr. Lacasa, the resolution was passed and adopted
by the following vote:
AYES; Commissioner Plummer
Commissioner Gordon
Commissioner Lacasa Vice Mayor Plummer 4 r+r; V LB ) 5 9
•
Mayor Ferre
�_ __ __ ___..._ ____ +
25. PUBLIC HEARING:
JAMESTOWN CENTER (a) CLOSURE 9 STREETS
(b) PRIVATE CLUB
(c) VARIANCE ON F.A.R.
Mayor Ferre: Take up item 62
Bob Davis: Just to remind the Commission what occurred when this was deferred.
It was deferred basically when the discussion reached the point on floor area
ratio that the Commission wanted the applicant to confer and perhaps come back
with further thoughts on the floor area ratio. At that time, you eradicated
your resolution on the vacation and closure of the street and deferred it also.
All 3 items are still before you and open tonight. Closure of Street, Private
Club conditional use and the variance for floor area ratio.
Mr. Jack Rice: Mr. Davis is correct, the conclusion at the last meeting we were
to consider some sort of arbitration between Dr. Robertson and the Commission
or at least a compromise as to floor area ratio etc. However, prior to that time,
and since we are getting close to a conclusion on this matter, I would like to get
the exhibits straightened out on the record. As you know, under the appropriate
rules pertaining to exhibits, the Clerk is usually the repository of all exhibits
with exception of the Planning and Zoning matters and which in the case, the
Director of the Planning & Zoning Boards maintains a file and the entire record
is with him, so would the Commission agree that the Planning & Zoning Director
is the repository of the exhibits in this case so we won't be in confusion later
on maybe. Secondly. I would like to file with the Clerk, the zoned floor hazard
boundary map which sets the floor criteria of this property which is 12'.
I had already introduced the oridinance previously.
I would next like to introduce the opinion of the Attorney General pertaining to
the closure of the street which I have discussed at a prior meeting.
Tne next item is article 5Jof the City of Miami Code which is public hearing fee,
Section 6?-26 which spells out what fees you are required to file for variances
closure of streets, platting, conditional uses etc.
The ne::t item I would like to introduce is the schedule of property tax increases
in 1978 valuations of the property involved in the matter before the Commission
which indicates that there has been an increase due to the construction of other
high rises in the area of $674,480 as to the applicants property.
I would no. also like to introduce this composite of street closures which
specifies the date of adoption, the number of the resolution of street closures,
not including alley closures that have occured in the City of Miami.
I would also like to introduce those items discussed by Mr. Dean. One is the aerial
photograph and site and area adjacent with an overlay showing site line projections
for Yacht Harbor.
Two, is the composite survey of sites showing existing structures which is number 2
and 3 is the map showing zoning use and boundaries of adjacent properties.
4 is site and building section showing heights of buildings and finish grade together
with project planning data.
5 is the site plan and basement floor plan 1/8th inch equals 20 feet and
6 is the site plan and first floor plan 1 inch equalling 20 feet and
7 is the basement floor plan, 1/8th inch equals 1 foot.
8 is the first floor plan, 1/8th inch equals 1 foot.
9 is the typical floor plan, 1/8th inch equals 1 foot.
In addition, there will be a couple of more exhibits as Mr. Dean makes his
presentation from the information report no. 1-11,Planning Advisory Service of
American Society of Planning Officials.
Mr. Mayor, is it true that we could take judicial notice of the zoning ordinance
of the City? I just want you to agree that we will take judicial notice.
Mayor Ferre: We hereby possession of all your exhibits and turn them over to the
Clerk as exhibits 1 to 348.
Mr. Rice: After discussion with Dr. Robertson, as presented to the City Commission
previously, we do want to construct an exceptional building in the area.
We would like to make a comment on the compromise of what we have asked for and
what we will agree to, and would like you to adopt, in order to resolve the impasse.
One is the street closure. I can see no compromise.
I don't feel there should be a compromise because I don't think legally we are
required to compromise a street closure. Thirdly, we are giving areas on Mary
Street where you really need it and closing 2 alleys which you never use and we
are making a very beautiful or useful sidewalk area for pedestrians to traverse.
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Mayor Ferre: Jack, I don't mean to be rude to you but lets get right to the heart
of it. We talked about closing the street, we moved it and then we reversed it
and back and forth. Then, we talked about the nightclub and that vent back and forth.
The nightclub, I think you got the feeling that the nightclub was out. I mean, you
know, that 2000 sq.ft. Jamestown Club or whatever its called.
And then where we were vas on the floor area ratio. The way I recall it is, Rose
Gordon said that anything over the 1.52 was or 1.65 was a variance and she was opposed
to it period, and I said, that I didn't think it was fair to have that formula stop
that way arbitrarily, that the bonus thing, and I asked Fo820e11- if it flowed naturally,
what would it go to and you said 1.77 or 1.something or other.
I asked you if that was fair and you said you could live with that and then we bogged
down because Dr. Robertson said no, he couldn't live with that, he wanted everything.
Thats where are. Where are we today?
Mr. Plummer: There was one other, the clubs.
Mayor Ferre: The Clubs are gone.
Mr. Fosmoen: One club is gone.
Mr. Plummer: Where did they go to?
Rev. Gitsc•-.: Sc, 3t just went in this compromise, isn't that what you said?
Rice: ,,;.dt we were asking for is the existing club plus the 5000 sq.ft. club.
We would a a,. ay with the existing club and just have the one 5000 sq.ft. club.
Mayor Ferre: Okay, so all we are left with is the floor area ratio.
Mr. Rice: Now, the F.A.R from the F.A.R. of 1.90 which we requested to a 1.77
ebove acc::, that means from the club area up to the top of the building, and not
to count the area, not to include in our F.A.R., that portion of the basement that
cannot bC for residential purposes and we are going to - wait a minute, before
we get to that, I would like to tell you the basis upon which we came to that
conclusion.
Mayor Ferre: You don't want to do that. Come on, its been a long day.
Mr. Fosmoen, have you heard all this now, up until now?
Mr. Fosmoen: Yes Sir.
Mr. Rice: Let give me give Mr. Fosmoen this, the F.A.R. would come to 1.794
includirg the basement which we have struck practically everything out of the
basement to come up with that figure and we provided additional open space on
the main deck.
Mayor Ferre: Jimmy, where are we on this thing now. Are you people down to 1.79,
is that what you are saying?
6:e11 as I understand it, it was 1.77 is what Mr. Fosmoen was saying.
Mr. Fosmoen: Its still there.
Mayor Ferre: Well what is it Mr. Fosmoen?
Mr. Rice: Could we just make a short presentation. Give me one of those and let me
give it to the Clerk as an exhibit.
Mr. Dean: My name is James Dean, I am the architect for the project. We went
back in the spirit of what we understood the Commission's directions and have
modified the building in the following manner and I have distributed a set of
calculations concerning the floor area ratio. You will notice that the roof area
has a .002 and that is as minimum as I can get and it contains a square footage
of each of the spaces.
To reach the 1.77, and we are talking about the typical apartment floors, I must
maintain an average square footage of 1600 Sq.Ft. for the apartments to extend
that bonus out to the 1.77.
I was able however to reduce my typical floors by a little over 2000 sq.ft. in
the 18 floors, reducing the F.A.R. of the apartments themselves to a 1.7.
The major elimination of space "ithin the building occurs on the deck, the first
level and the basement. On the deck level, where previously we were bringing
the building vertically to the deck, we have omitted approximately 3200 sq.ft. in
that area which will mean the ground floor area will be reset back in and there
will be visual penetrations through the building at that deck area.
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Plr. Dean: (Cont'd) At the basement level, I have eliminated approximately 7800
square feet of space and included in that basement area only those areas which
are essential to the operation of the building. The stairs, the elevator, the
mechanical equipment room, the trash compactor, the transformer vault and the
proposed club entrance which I discussed with you earlier so that the noise and
other intrustions on Mary Street would not occur. The entrance to the club being
sub -basement and into the tower. That has an F.A.R. of .024
What Mr. Rice has said to you is that above, from the first level and through the
tower, the floor area ratio is 1.77 and that in the basement, I have a .024 and
that brings the F.A.R. to 1.794. In defense of the basement area, we entered into
the record some definitions that were secured through the American Planning
Association documentation of F.A.R. They are here and they are quick and they
simply say, a few representative definitions of F.A.R., one in North Dakota says,
F.A.R. shall include the area basement when used for residential, commercial
or industrial purpose but need not include a basement or a portion of a basement
used for storage or housing of mechanical or central heating equipment.
There are several definitions, one from Chicago, one from New York.
Mayor Ferre: When you and I discussed over the phone what Dr. Bartley's
recommendations were. Is he recommending this, yes or no?
Mr. Dean: In examining the new
to definition because that is a
code, under residential F.A.R.,
presently excluded from F.A.R.,
used for li•:: 1.g accomodations.
proposed code for the City, and I am only speaking
land use intensity code but in that particular
it also mentions all of the things which are
but in addition it says, the basement space not
Mayor Ferre: Is that Dr. Bartley's recommendation for our new zoning code?
Do you agree with that Mr. Fosmoen.
,r. Fosmoen; We are till workingon the new ordinance Mr. Mayor.
ue are worring with tne present ordinance. Looko
Looking at a new ordinance
that hasn't been adopted yet is hardly a basis for granting a variance.
Mr. Dean: All I was attempting to do in using that was a definition because
F.A.R. as presented by Mr. Whipple the last time is a control of the building bulk
and those spPe.Ps which occur in a basement area, unless you are using it for
increasing the density of the building, for retail space or commercial space,
hasn't historically been used in code documents as a penalty against the F.A.R.
and I have restricted that area to an absolutely bare minimum.
I have elir.ir.ated out of the ground floor F.A.R., the locker storage areas,
an excessive amount of space, and what I end up with in the basement area.
(Inaudible - not using microphone)
Mayor Ferre: Mr. Dean, you are going awfully quick and Mr. Fosmoen, you really
haven't answered my question. My question again is or to you Dick, in Dr. Bartley's
recommendation for the zoning that we will hopefully have someday, is there a
provision where in a residential area, in a basement area, where there is no living,
not to be counted in the F.A.R.?
Mr. Fosmcen: Yes.
Mayor Ferre: There is.
Mr. Whipple: Mr. Mayor, if I may add to that. There is a provision which infers
that that is the case which may be, I am not doubting that, but you cannot take
a single item out of context in a whole proposed new ordinance which changes all the
F.A.R.s and all the definitions pertaining to zoning for the entire city.
To take one item out without putting it in the proper context with respect to F.A.R.
permitted in a particular district and based upon net lot area vs. gross F.A.R.,
I think that falls a little bit short.
Mayor Ferre: When we left this last time, I think that you had at least 3 votes
on this Commission to do to 1.77 which was your recommendation Mr. Fosmoen, is
that correct?
Mr. Fosmoen: Yes Sir.
Mayor Ferre: Now, it was after discussion -
Mrs. Gordon: It was 1.65 the last time I heard it.
Mayor Ferre: Why don't you explain that so we get that on the record again.
How did it go from 1.65 to 1.77?
Mr. Fosmoen: I indicated to the Commission, that if this Commission views the
largeness of the area of the apartment as being something desirable, increasing
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Mr. Fosmoen; (Cont'd) the size of the unit, then you could logically extend
the F.A.R. to 1.77 based on the size of the units. There is an arbitrary cutoff
point of 1.65
Mrs. Gordon: 1.65 is an arbitrary cutoff point?
Mr. Fosmoen: Its the cutoff point.
Mrs. Gordon: Yes, but do you have arbitrary cutoff points?
Mr. Fosmoen: All of the numbers, whatever number we come up with is obviously
arbitrary.
Mrs. Gordon: Then why do you say 1.77 is a cutoff point? Why not 1.99 or
some other point?
Mr. Fosmoen: Because we extended it based on the size of the units.
Mrs. Gordon: Well, I am kind of surprised at your definition.
Mr. Rice: I thought we were here solely on the compromise and you didn't let me
make a full discussion on our case and now you are opening the entire hearing for
a repeat of everything said. The only thing we have asked for is that we compromised
our position in hopes of having some relief because we are in serious economic sraits
with a building that has been raised in value with the development of Yacht harbor,
Sailboat Bay, Office in the Grove, Coconut Grove Hotel and every other thing that
has occurred in the Grove, and the Mayfair.
Now to open it up and let everybody speak when they have all spoken and will say
the same thing.
Mayor Ferre: I am certainly not going to let anybody start repeating the same things
that we have gone over for the last time.
Jack, do you have anything else to say?
Dr. Robertson: I appreciate the long time you have been here and your patience.
I would like to point one of two things that hasn't been brought out previously.
Mayor Ferre: I am going to say to you and to everybody else, that I will not take
any more testimony of anything that is now new. If you have said this before, please
don't say it again.
Dr. Robertson; This site is 115,800 sq.ft. which is 3000 sq.ft. more than Yacht
Harbor which is 112,700.sq.ft. We are giving away 3000 sq.ft. They have effectively
a F.A.R. of 2.1. We have come far off of this and we are quite reasonable in what
we are requesting. Thank you.
Mayor Ferre: Please keep all statements to about 3 minutes. That will take about
Li hour and we can get on.
Mr. Shellow; Ronald Shellow, 2901 South Bayshore Drive. I urge the Commission to
not accept any of the 3 variances. Hr. Mayor, at the last commission meeting, all
of the variances, even the one you adopted were recinded to provide room for
negotiations and they have not proposed reasonable negotiations. They have still
extended beyond what the maximum that the zoning 6 planning boards agreed to.
I therefore ask all of the Commissioners not to grant any of the variances.
We have an opportunity to stop this kind of growth and I know that the paper notes
to you that Woody Wiser is coming before this Commission to ask for a 14 story
building one block beyond and I call that to your attention.
May I respectfully ask any Commissioner who votes to grant any variance, that he
state for the record what he deems the hardship this developer has and would he
further how his vote to grant the variance will relieve that hardship, thank you..
Mr. Schumy: I am Ted Schumy, Architect, one of the Board of Directors, Coconut
Grove Civic Club. I have a couple of comments. When this project first was
brought up last fall before the Zoning Board, at the end of the first meeting,
they suggested the developers get together with the various civic organizations
to discuss the project. We had the developers at our civic club meeting, ee
talked about it in detail and there was no compromise, whatsoever. Now they bring
changes before you which we have not seen at all and can't really intelligently
comment on and I don't think that is fair because we are very much concerned about it.
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Mr. Schumey: (Cont'd) I think that there shouldn't be any vote tonight. I think
it should be postponed until we can take a look at what he is suggesting. We don't
know anything about it at all. I personally am opposed to the Floor Area Ratio.
I think its extremely important that you consider what it does in terms of the future
development of the block right in front of the city hall. I think there is a high
possibility if you approve the increase in F.A.R., we will get the equivalent of
another whole building built in that block and that isn't what we want in Coconut
Grove. I see no hardship. I see no way Dr. Robertson cannot come out a winner.
I want it to be profitable but not at the expense of Coconut Grove. I urge you again
not to vote tonight until we can look the thing over.
Mr. Ellison: I am Waldo Ellison, I represent the Biscayne Bay Association.
If we are going to give Dr. Robertson the street closures, what are we as citizens
of the City of Miami going to get in return? This is something this Commission
should act upon as I mentioned before. We need a tunnel for downtown Miami and
of course its going to cost more than Dr. Robertson wants to give us but I think
we should get something in return if the City Commissioners are going to go and
give them the streets. Something monetarily speaking. I would assume that land
is worth at least a couple hundred thousand dollars. Something to enhance the
beauty of Coconut Grove and I think it is imcumbent on the Commissioners to take
this into consideration. The second issue is that of the hardship. Now this is
supposed to be a 1.5 F.A.R. with bonuses bringing it to 1.65. It isn't 1.65
the bonuses bring it to 1.77 and I think some of the people here in the audience
are not aware o this. I hope the Commissioners are.
Mayor Ferrt i%o. no, lets go over that. The cutoff, if there was no cutoff, which
is an arbitrary cutoff, the bonus factor would normally go in that particular project
to 1.77
Mr. Davis: If I may explain Mr. Mayor. They would not have to petition for a
variance on the F.A.R. if they were to stay within 1.65
Mayer Ferre: I understand that and realize that. What I am saying is that if
there weren't an arbitrary cutoff point, it would go to 1.77. Put that sheet up
again, ncl- would you go over that Mr. Whipple, how the 1.5 gets limited. Do it
one more time.
Mr. Whipple: As it indicates on the sheet, there is a maximum bonus permitted
under existing regulations of .15 to be added to the base F.A.R. of 1.50 for
a maximum permitted of 1.65 Your question or thoughts Mr. Mayor was if there was
no limit as to the increments limiting it to .15 extended on the same basis of
the bonus up to the proposed project regarding unit size, the F.A.R. would
then be 1.77 so there is a variance between what is being permitted but if there
is no limit, it would be 1.77.
Mrs. Gordon: Now, Mr. Whipple, tell me, what is the criteria for granting a
variance?
Mr. Whipple: I am not sure I understand the question.
Mrs. Gordon: 0h yes you do, what do you have to have to be a legal hardship
for getting a variance,period?
Mr. Whipple: I believe at the last meeting, they decided all 7 or 8 points
that are set forth in the Zoning Ordinance which suggest that ahardship must
exist with respect to the size, shape or location of the subject property which
denies a property owner reasonable use of the site under the current provisions.
I believe I stated to you at that time that it was difficult on the part of the
department, to justify a variance for additional F.A.R. because that was more
than the ordinance permits and therefore does not deprive the property owner
of the reasonable use of his land.
Mrs. Gordon: That's what the point is. I mean, if we are going to invent
reasons for every application that comes before us, then we might as well throw
the ordinance out the window and let everybody do everything they want to do
and maybe it will come out all right, I don't know, but as long as we have laws
and we have to have reasons to grant variances, we can't just grant them because
we like the architect or like the owner or attorney, we like them all, but that
isn't the reason for granting a variance.
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Mr. Rice: However Mrs. Gordon, on every one of those resolutions dealing with
all of those buildings, you found that there vas a hardship when you granted it
to Sailboat Bay.
Mrs. Gordon: I did not.
Mr. Rice: Well, whoever did -
Mrs. Gordon: Well just don't say I did because I didn't. I haven't voted for
any of those.
Mr. Rice: I can only talk about the governmental body. Sailboat Bay, Yacht
Harbor, when you permitted the replatting of the same pieces of property and
the Grove Hotel.
Mrs. Gordon: I did not.
Mr. Rice: Coconut Grove - Office in the Grove and Coconut Grove Hotel.
Mrs. Gordon: I didn't vote for that one either.
Mr. Rice: Not only do they have an F.A.R. variance, they have a variance to
everything and everyone of them, you found a hardship and I want to tell you
our hardship again since he says, he spoke about hardships. We have now a
12' flood criteria which vas never in existence at the time we owned this
property and constructed it. We can't even use the first floor of the building
any longer, its against the law.
Mrs. Gordon: You are going over, and you are making statements which are not
accurate. You are saying that the records reflect that variances were granted
true! - But don't say, you did, or anyone else that sits on this Commission
because I don't know that any of these people were at the time that those things
were done. Nevertheless, they were done, but two wrongs don't make a right
and I don't honestly believe that I can justify a variance because if I do, I
cannot justif:. not granting the next guy that comes along the same privilege.
Mr. Rice: Well I am just saying that you cannot economically do against us,
what you have done to all the properties that surround us, or the city did.
In other words, they have, and as far as the hardship, that is a legal matter
and a Commission matter to determine. I say legally we are entitled to it.
Mrs. Gordon: No, certain pieces of land do have a peculiar shape which you
have the ability then to grant a variance in some unique situations like a
triangle.
Mr. Rice: It's like a piece of pie, that is just what our land is, a triangle.
It's an obtuse triangle.
Mayor Ferre: Lets move along and see who the next speaker is.
Mr. Mark: Mr. Mayor, my name is Bryan Mark, 2797 Crystal Court, an attorney
representing the Tigertail Association.
We would like to support your Planning Department and your Zoning Board and
deny the request for these variances.
Last commission meeting we discussed in detail hardship and problems, however
you should take cognizance in the fact that you might have a better or more
profitable project and its not something to be determined tonight. A hardship
here is self-created by the architecture. You design a building and come before
the Commission and say we need a variance to fit the code to the design.
The land is there, they can design a building within the code and build something
that I assume is not only profitable, maybe not as profitable as they would like
but theta not for you to determine, its not the issue. One other point. That
is the road. At the last meeting, there was a lot of questions about the road
closure and who owned it. We had an attorney, Mr. Amos Benjamin, who came here
with a power of attorney from the heirs of the original grantor claiming that
the street if closed, the reservation would take the street back to the original
grantor or its heirs. Mr. Rice stated that the abutting property owners had a
right to own that property. I think you asked your own legal department to give
you an opinion on this and we haven't heard from them.
Mr. Mayor, sight you ask the city attorney?
Mr. Rice: I told them we would hold you harmless, I thought that is how we
resolved that.
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Mr. Mark: There has been other projects that have come before this Commission
where the ownership of the land has been in question and I don't know how the
Commission can grant the closure of the street and allow a project to be built
to vote on F.A.R. for land that may possibly not be owned by the applicant.
If there is any legal question of the ownership of the land, you shouldn't be
voting on a variance to give him the right to build on that land. We haven't
heard any opinion from the city attorney on this.
Mr. Rice: He raised the same issue on the plat and that case is not in the
appellate court anymore.
Ms. Miriam Maer: (Asst. City Atty.) To date Mr. Benjamin has not provided the
Law Department with any sort of document, title, plat etc. He has never
contacted us to discuss it, or offer us anything for examination.
He has not come forward to present the document he wishes me to examine and
render a legal opinion on. I can only guess at what it is. He has never put
anything in evidence, it was never submitted to the City Clerk and it was
never given to the Law Department.
Mr. Benjamin: My name is Avis Benjamin, I am an attorney. I represent the
Yacht Harbor Condominium Association. The Board of Directors have voted against
these three variances. I was not furnished, by the same token, anything by the
City Attorney concerning the validity of the ordinance.
Mr. Rice has quoted an opinion of the Attorney General. None of those cases
touched upon the constitutionality of the city ordinance or the state statue or
the attorney general's opinion as to whether or not anyone can take away private
property without due process. You keep talking about an alley. One street alone
DelMonte is 20 X 264', that is 5280 sq.ft. of property on Bayshore. We are talking
about over 6000 sq.ft. I think personally, until this thing is resolved, there
should be a deferrance of the items 2 and 3 but that again is up to the Commission.
I want to compliment Commissioner Gordon in saying a variance should not be granted
unless there is a hardship. I speak to you Mr. Mayor when you say you can live
with a variance, I don't think that is a criteria either. We can all live with
a lot of things we shouldn't have to live with. I think when Commissioner Gordon
says there should not be a variance unless there is a hardship, I don't think
.its proper nor do I think its right for anyone including you Mr. Mayor to say,
I car. live with a change. I don't think we should do that.
Mayor Ferre: I think you understood what I meant. What I said was that I think
the limitation of the 15% of the .15 bonus is basically a ficticious limitation.
Mr. Benjamin: You said you could live with a variance of 1.77.
Mayor Ferre: That is right. I don't see it as a variance is all I am saying.
Mr. Benjamin: But it is a variance and the Planning Board has said so and
commissioner Gordon has said so, and I think if the other commissioners look at
it properly, we are granting a variance however slight, however small and you
are setting a precedent that I think we should not do.
Mr. Plummer: Mr. Benjamin, Sir, where do you live presently?
Mr. Benjamin: Right now, I live at 2901 South Bayshore which is Yacht Harbor,
Apartment 5H, I was one of the first owners of the apartment.
Mr. Plummer: Are you aware that you would not be living in the same circumstances
had -a variance not been granted where you are presently residing?
Mr. Benjamin: I will take exception to that Mr. Plummer. A variance was not granted.
If you check your records, I am sure because Mr. Treister informed me of this.
He said one thing in our favor, we did not ask for, nor did we get a variance.
Mr. Rice said we used a dog leg of property to get what we got but it wasn't by
virtue of a variance anymore than he wants to use the street. He is asking for
a variance. Yacht Harbor never got one.
Mrs. Gordon:
building.
Mayor Ferre:
over before.
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That's a fact, J. L., there wasn't a variance on that particular
We are again going over an awful lot of things that we have gone
174
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2 197
Mr. Plummer: Just on the record, Mr. Benjamin, you are right and I am right.
The reason Sir, that you are presently there, you are there on a F.A.R. of 1.71
simply because your property was in two classifications of zoning and was adjusted
but still remains the fact that you reside in a building that is presently above
the 1.65.
Mr. Benjamin: I will grant you that.
Mrs. Gordon: There are two zonings.
Mr. Benjamin: Still, a variance vas not asked for nor given, You can go around
the back door but still the fact that the variance was not granted and a variance
is what they are asking for.
Mr. Plummer: I got mine, don't give it to anybody else.
Mr. Jaffer: Joel Jaffer, 3268 Mary Street. These objections were brought up at
the last meeting by Mr. Plummer so I think they should be not gone over again too.
What was established at the last Commission meeting as far as I can see was not
that you all agreed with the street closure and made a decision on the bar and
stopped the F.A.R., but what was established at the last meeting, was the spirit
of Dr. Robertson's request, and that was O.R., we gave him the streets, we even
gave him the bar, how much does he think he can get out of the City?
They came up at the last minute with some ridiculuous comprise about the basement
and it seemed to be the overriding opinion at that time that the spirit of Dr.
Robertson's request was that the city should work for him, that the City was his
sbrvent and he could do whatever he wanted, and I don't see any change in the
position of these people since that time. Now this thing with the basement, they
still haven't made a compromise. They just think the city should do everything
for them.
M_,ycr Ferre: You haven't said a thing thats new so far, now I am going to give
you -
Mr. Jaffer: I am saying that they haven't said anything new.
Mayor Ferre: Finish your statement.
Mr. Jaffer: You talk about grass roots problems in community development throughout
the entire meeting and here in Coconut Grove, we have an active, alive community
without any help from the city, it is a very nice community here and
Mayor Ferre: And it got this way without any help from the City, right?
I understand. Go ahead.
Mr. Jaffer: I would say that the community that is left is here in spite of the City.
Mayor Ferre: Oh, I see, that's why its doubled and tripled in size because despite,
that's what- I know you don't like it, but that is exactly what's happened. It's
such a bad ugly place that everybody wants to live here.
Mr. Jaffer: Anyway, the community is coming here and telling you that they don't
want this highrise. Now if you want grass roots political action in the City, the
the thing that is basic to all political action, is that the feeling that an
individual person can do something and the more buildings that keep going up, the
more people leave the Grove and the more people think that there is nothing that
anyone can do to stop these buildings going up and I think its silly to think that
you are going to get any grass roots support from any community when you have such
solid community support against the whole highrises from the very start and think
you will get it anywhere else. What you are doing is killing active communities on
the one hand and trying to build up dead communities on the other which we dealt
with for hours before this and you know, its just silly.
Another problem with communities is a problem that is basic to a lot of cities,
armies, and other beaucracies, that you can solve a problem by painting over
something, that you can solve a problem by landscaping something, by just going
over something without affecting the real problem thats here and I think that
comments you are getting from people here tonight are commenting towards the real
problem with highrises on the water and simply by putting green things around them,
making a street 5 feet vide isn't going to solve this basic problem.
Mayor Ferre: All right, thank you Mr. Jaffer. Who is the nest speaker?
I might comment, Mr. Jaffer mentioned leaving, that's why everybody is leaving
the Grove. I think the problem is just the opposite. The problem we are faced
with here is too many people wanting to live in the Grove, not leaving the Grove.
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Ma. Holzhauser: Joanne 8olzhauser, 4230 Ingraham Highway, I am president of
the Coconut Grove Civic Club. When we left here, the "Perils of Pauline",
I don't know how many weeks ago, I seem to recall what they were going to do
with that basement area and Mr. Fosmoen was standing over there and laughing.
I don't know if Mr. Fosmoen was laughing at the same thing, but, it struck me
then that something was going on that I couldn't quite figure out. It was all
of a sudden, Mr. Rice and Mr. Dean were both agreeing, yes, yes, yes, and then
something went on. Well what went on, nobody bothered to tell us until right
now. I do object to that, I really think that after all these months, the
least they could have done, all the hours we have spent here together, they could
have shown us the confounded sheet, now couldn't they?
Why not show us what they are going to give you all? I don't mean you Mr.Fosmoen,
I am talking about the applicant. I am just commenting at the last meeting at a
point when I looked back and saw Mr. Fosmoen laughing and I was listening to what
they were saying, and I knew then there was something going on about that basement
area because it was a little bit too much. I am saying for several weeks now, we
have been trying to figure out what they were after and now we know.
They want to have it and use it and not use it, they want to use it, but not have
it counted against them. They want to have that basement floor and they say they
aren't using it for anything except when we listen, we find out there are a few
things they are going to use it for after all so we are going to argue about this
and the other thing. Then they will come in with something new because of
Dr. Bartley's which isn't even on the books yet, they want to do that.
If they want to go by Dr. Bartley's rules, may I suggest that they withdraw and
apply again after Dr. Bartley's things have all been voted in and we have all had
time to digest those and in view of what happens with Dr. Bartley's report, and
what you all do with it, then let them apply again. A whole new ball game but if
they are applying tonight, they are applying under tonight's rules and I beg to
differ. I don't think they are arbitrary rules. If they were arbitrary rules,
every applicant who comes down here, particularly the ones with attorneys, is
going to be arguing about the arbitrariness of that rule. One of the extensions is
if its all that arbitrary based on their unit size, when he builds larger units,
is he going to get more? Lets say he will put in 25oo or 3000 ft per unit, are
we going to go up on it? It's only arbitrary as long as somebody wants to consider
it arbitrary. We have a chart here, arbitrary or not, its the rules you have been
playing by. The chart here are the rules that the city has been playing by now
for quite awhile. What is arbitrary about it? All we are asking is just what we
asked right from the start, we just want them to do what they are legally entitled
to, they don't have a hardship, they are not entitled to a variance on the basis of
what we read. Some attorneys and some architects and some private citizens as a
hardship for which they are entitled to a variance. We are very clear about that.
They are giving up the club, well according to some of the stuff I have just read
in the agenda there tonight, it was going to be a non-profit club anyway, so they
are telling me, thats giving up? It was non-profit, why would they care?
Its right there in black and white - non profit. Why would they build it if it was
going to be non-profit? They gave it up because it was non-profit?
They are going to build it there. We know there is going to be a highrise there
but at least let it be what comes within the code and the very thing that Mr. Rice
keeps saying, that Mr. Dean keeps saying, they keep talking about what the other
buildings have done. The ones that are already there are the very reasons why
we don't want a variance for this one. That is the best example, go out and look
at any of the things that are there and those are the best examples we have of why
we don't need any more variances. Everytime you give them a variance, everytime
you decide to be arbitrary, that's what it is. What you are being asked to do
tonight is be arbitrary, deciding whether you will give it to them. Every time
you -do, the next one down the line, there are 4 more pieces of property there at
least and you are going to be asked for variances on every one. Please don't be
arbitrary, go by what you have got or let them withdraw now and wait for Dr. Bartley.
Thank you.
Mayor Ferre: Joanne, I would say you held your own pretty hell. Who is next?
Ms. Reed: Marilyn Reed, Coconut Grove. I want to know if any of this traffic
coming out of this development is coming onto Mary Street? Could you answer that?
Mayor Ferre: I think there is an opening there, isn't there?
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Ms. Reed: I am talking about in front of the Mayfair, in that strip.
Mr. Rice: No, there is no traffic.
Mayor Ferre: Oh yea there is.
Mr. Rice: Well just the parking lot. The traffic from the building comes out on
beside Yacht Harbor.
Mayor Ferre: What are you talking about? Up in the corner --
Ms. Reed: Where is Bayshore on there right now? You have traffic coming out of there -
Mayor Ferre: Its right up in the corner.
Mr. Rice: That is to our parking lot. We have 3 or 4 entrances to the parking lot.
Ms. Reed: Let me call your attention to this, we discussed this one day about the
Mayfair and the bulk and the problems. Mayfair has delivery areas right there
facing this. You will have purveyors trucks in there. You have now got an impasse
daily and traffic is backed up in there and its dangerous and I almost get hit
every time i go through there and I would hope that you would consider traffic.
Mayer Ferri,: ? !:ink there is no question that there is a lot of traffic but,
let's also consider that when you are talking about one way or the other is
a hundrec: .ghat?
Unidentified: 185
Mayor Ferre: No no, you are not putting 185 units on this. You could build 185.
Mr. Rice: «: en1y have 10.8 and the traffic engineer has given it a clear signal
on this all,- are widening Mary Street by 5 feet.
Ms. Reed: I am talking about trip generation, per day, per unit and you have
to look at ttao L .
Mr. Alexander: My name is Henry Alexander, I would like to address the Commission
on the arbitrary nature of the F.A.R. of 1.65. If I may go back and talk about
why the system was established. In this particular case, I believe that the bonuses
at one time were established because they felt that large apartments were better than
a small apartment. It doesn't really help the City but for some reason they figured
larger apartments were better. Now they said by building a larger apartment, you
might get some credit but they didn't say this was an endless process. They said
larger apartments are worth something, let us establish a value for it and they
said if you increase an apartment by 50 sq.ft., starting out with a tiny apartment
of about 700 sq.ft., you increase the size of that apartment until you get to a
point where it is 1200 sq.ft. and you probably think this is a good enough size of
apartment. Now for every 50' above the 700 to 1200, we are going to give you a
bonus of .015. When you get to the 1200 sq.ft., you end up with a F.A.R. by adding
these little bonuses that equals 1.65, so that is really not that arbitrary.
It represents what they feel is a rational= sized apartment. We are not going to
give them the world, ve are going to give them a rational sized apartment of 121-
I think what you are suggesting is, every time you add another 50', we ought to
increase those peoples square footage for their F.A.R. above that.
This is an endless process in that if you go up to 1700 sq.ft., so you are adding
additional sq.footage by using the 50' increment, every 50' giving them .015,
you would have an F.A.R. of 1700 sq.ft. of 1.8. You go to 1800 aq.ft., you get
1.83 mere does 1.77 alip in? It just so happens that the developers thia time
had laid out their apartments at 1600 sq.ft. Now if you start with base
and add your 50'. you will find out that 1600 sq.ft. comes out to equal 1.77.
That is where it came from, so I hope you will understand that that is not an
endless process. Its not arbitrary, its very sound and very rational. Lets give
them a bonus for that re think are good things but up to a point. Its not endless.
Ma. Lyman: Ruth Lyman, 2901 South Bayshore Drive. I am opposed to all of the
variances and I do not find the compromiae that was offered tonight acceptable.
One thing that I think kind of slipped by and nobody questioned it. When Mr. Rice
said that they ranted to close the original Jamestown Club but they wanted to keep
the 5000 sc;.ft. that they were asking for in variances for a new club, nobody
asked him, what is the footage of the current Jamestown Club?
He ix asking for a lot.rd.th the 5000 sq..ft,, I don't care if he closes the current
Jamestown Club and opens another one, thereby only having one club.
Mayor Ferre: That is what he is doing.
177
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FEB 2 21979
Ms. Lyman: (Cont'd) Yes, but I don't want him to have any more square footage
than what he currently has. If he has 2500 in the old club, let him have
2500 in the new club after the old club is closed, but no more, no more extras.
Mayor Ferre: Do we have a choice of what size, or how he distributes his space?
She is saying that he has a 2500 ft. club and now is going to a 5000 ft. club,
and she says its okay to have a 2500 new club but not a 5000 sq.ft. new club.
My question to you is, can we tell him how to use his space?
Mr. Whipple: There is no limitation perse as to the club's size. They came i.n
and proffered a 5000 sq.ft. club on their plans.
Mayor Ferre: In other words, if they wanted to have 3000, 4000 or 6000, we
really can't stop them from deciding how to distribute that space.
Mr. Whipple: That is correct and once they decide and it becomes part of the plan,
that is the plan and they have to stick with it.
Mayor Ferre: I think the point to the lady that just spoke is we really don't have
any say as to what size club, do we?
Mr. Davis: I also wish to say as further clarification of that, their existing
club can be enlarged at any point without public hearing.
Mayor Ferre: I think what we really have before us is the question of the F.A.R.
Tha: i3 t.a.iy where the decision is. Who else wants to speak?
Mr. Butler: My name is Michael Butler, I live at Yacht Harbor Condominiums.
I ar sneaking for Jamestown. I am going to try to address myself strictly to the
F.A.R. in Dade County, the projection for this year and next year is 15,000
new residential units to be built and 6000 of those are expected to be condominiums.
Those bOC'C condominiums would be of a luxurious type, it seems that is the best
selling type. Hardship is a word that is so emotional that you think of a decrepit
cid r au w,_...n down the street begging for nickels. Really it is a word in legal
terms and in zoning terms that is almost cut and dried. Try to remove yourselves
from the et,c,icual aspect of hardship. If Dr. Robertson wanted to sell his land
to Woody Weiser who is coming in in a couple of weeks for the Sheraton Corporation,
we would have 500 hotel rooms accross the way from Yacht Harbor and we couldn't
do anything about it. Or he could sell it to a developer of an office building
that would have 800 employees and we couldn't do anything about that.
So he is trying to make the most of his dollars and also keep the Grove in its
most ideallic condition. What he is asking for as hardship. he is saying in
essence, this is what I am trying to do for the Grove.
Now he reeds the security that he is going to be able to come out okay.
If large apartments are the things that are selling today, I would like to build
large apartments. We have Sailboat Bay Apartment and Hotel down the road that
is 1.78 P.A.R. and just beside them, the Office in the Grove is 1.81.
Now lets say, we are talking about residential areas if you happen to be on Mrs.
Gordon's street, and all the houses were the same, somebody has a vacant lot on
the street, and could not build his dwelling and assuming the same apples to apples
Sailboat Bay, 1.78, Office in the Grove, 1.81 and a person building on the same
street as Mrs. Gordon, has to build a smaller house. The possibility of a person
getting a return on their investment is not as great as a larger home.
What I am saying Mayor Ferre is, large apartments guarantees a developer a larger
income.
Mayor Ferre: So what?
Mr. Butler: That in a sense is reason enough for hardship.
If you were in the banking business and investing in this project and you wanted
to get guaranteed return, you would make sure the project has its best foot
forward, that is what I am saying. If larger units are selling, let them build
larger units.
Mrs. Gordon: May I give Mr. Butler some assurance that we wouldn't have the
office building or the other conditions coming about because this city has a
controlling factor here, we don't have to close those streets and then no one
could do what you are afraid they might do to you if in fact this variance isn't
granted.
rgo
4: 22 7,9 y
Mr. Butler: What I am saying Mrs. Gordon is though I have two units close by
that have units larger than 1.65 F.A.R., I am saying if we are going to compete,
we should be competing against what is in the neighborhood.
Mrs. Gordon: I need to respond because I just feel overwhelmed by the fact that
Dr. Robertson doesn't appreciate the fact that he is getting something for
nothing. I don't know how many square feet are in those streets but he should be
grateful for that and build to 1.65 and say thank you very much City of Miami for
giving me a gift.
Mr. Butler: Mrs. Gordon, may I respond please.
Mrs. Gordon: Sure.
Mr. Butler: I am not talking for an individual in any sense. I am talking for
myself. I do not represent the developer by any stretch of the imagination.
Mrs. Gordon: I know, we will try to protect your interest by not allowing the
office building or whatever else you don't want.
Mr. Butler: To answer your question that the closing of the street as you suggested
is sure a valued for anybody. I am sure its not going unnoticed.
Mr. Sandburg: I am Doug Sandburg and I live at Yacht Harbor also. All I want
to say about Michael is that I am an owner at Yacht Harbor and he isn't an
owner at Yacht Harbor.
Mayor Ferre: Okay, all right, I assume you are against because you didn't tell us.
Mr. Balogh: Julian Balogh, 2901 Bayshore Drive. I am not going to make a long
speech. I don't understandF.A.R very well but I saw the slide of 1.50, .015
that is wit], bonus 1.65. I am all for these folks building an apartment.
I don't want to be threatened by a hotel, they can build a hotel without a variance.
Whatever they can do with existing laws is fine with me and I am against any
increase in the F.A.R., they have a 2500 ft. Club and they have asked for a variance
previously of a 5000 ft. club. I never saw their compormises.
Mayor Ferre: No, no, Julian, lets get it right. They have a 2500 ft. club.
WHat they were asking for was for a variance to have 2 clubs. Now that is different.
Now, what they are going to do, I think because they saw the handwriting on the
wall is they are not going to get two clubs, they have one club. We can't tell
them what size club to have.
Mr. Balogh: That's fine Maurice, but they were asking for 5000 extra feet, that
doesn't mean they were entitled to it. If they had a 2500 ft. club and asked
you for 2500 extra feet, do you think they would get it? No, that is what they
are asking for now. I can't get into this club issue. I think they are entitled
to 2500 square feet and I think they are entitled to the F.A.R. that they want.
I think they were supposed to make a compromise and the changes they were going
to make, we didn't see anything. These datum things are turned around the wrong
way, we can't even see what is going on here. That's rude, its improper and
it's not what they were supposed to do. The Zoning Board when it came up said
very clearly, get together with the tenants, iron it out, speak to them, make
a compromise. We haven't heard anything from these fellows here. Now they come
up with this thing and they expect this to pass. I think it should be deferred
until we see what they are doing. We don't know what they are doing.
I haven't even seen a picture of this thing. Its turned the other way, has anybody
seen a picture of this stuff?
Mayor Ferre: Same picture as the last meeting.
Ms. Gillis: I am Ruth Gillis, 2721 South Bayshore Drive and I just have to
capsule a lot of things. First of all of people have the feeling that this is
going to ruin the Grove image. South Bayshore is a buffer. It buffers, it is
not the Grove parse, its the Grove but what do you want to do, fill South Bayshore
with junk? Another point vas brought up, what will this building be giving to
the City of Miami? Increased taxes, those people are going to pay right through
their nose for taxes and then if you want to become macabre, there are inheritance
taxes which I do not think are controlled as highly as your other taxes. You have
more latitude in how you use those taxes. My last impression at the meeting in
January was that a lot of people think variance is a dirty word. It's a beautiful
word. That's where you get your compassion. You can lend a degree of what is
humane into your controlling power. If you lay out a new subdivision, you will
draw deeds and covenants to those deeds and you think boy, I have this ace right
in there but that developer will still grant variances within reason at his
discretion.
179 FEE
rgo
Ms. Gillis: Variances, --you people are here because of your discretionary
ability and I would like to see you use it in regard to these variances.
Did I slap you hand?
Mayor Ferre: Its very nice but its against the law. It just happens to
be against the law.
Ms. Gillis: What?
Mayor Ferre: The law doesn't permit that, see? Its very nice. We can't
go out and give variances because we feel sorry for somebody.
Mrs. Gordon: There are guidelines.
Ms. Gillis: Oh, no, I don't want you to. I just want you to do it for
the betterment of the area.
Mayor Ferre: Okay, thank you very much. Next speaker. I don't see any more
so Mr. Rice, please, very short. You can do the anchor on the other side.
Mr. Rice: Well, first of all they said we didn't get with them and tell
the,-1 what we are going to do and we haven't done anything. I want to tell
you we've had a great deal of expense. We've changed that entrance to that
club which ordinarily would have come through through Mary Street, and now
we are putting it down in the basement, having to put an elevator and an
entrance and valet service. Secondly we are only covering 9 percent of the
lot. We could cover 14 percent. Every other highrise covers more lot area
than this proposed structure. The heighth and bulk of the building is un-
controlled by F.A.R. The only thing we are asking you to do is to provide
fo: a larger apartment for the convenience of the people that live there.
And you know how F.A.R. got started and why it was cut at 1.65? That was
based on a market study which indicated that that was the cutoff point at
that time. That's the reason why we had Mr. Wild up here who now states
that the market study indicates that you should give a bonus for a larger
apartment. So we are asking to follow the market study of today, not what
10 years when they adopted the existing Code. I think we've made a gigantic
effort to compromise this situation. We are giving up the Club. We are
entitled to one Club which we presently have on the premises. The size
of the Club is not an issue. I think we absolutely compromised the noise
factor in this which was the primary objection in Yacht Harbor. And you
know there were 40 people who gave their proxies originally, their attorney
is not here objecting to this at this time, and that's Phil Knight.
Mayor Ferre: Thank you. Joanne I assume you will do the,...is that all right
with you, Counselor? You have been selected..
Ms. Joanne Holshouser: I am not sure whether this is an honor or not.
If you give them 1.77 what are you going to say to the next guy down the
street? What are you going to say when he says I'm coming in with 2,000
feet, great apartments, beautiful asset to the Grove and all that? What
are you going to say to him? He's going to want 2.0 then. I am just asking.
Be thinking, because if you give it to them, the line forms right out there.
They are going to be right back in here wanting every variance, and I beg
to remind everybody sitting here that most of them I think on the Commission
and back here know it, but I wonder how many people out there know it, that
those plans they show you today have got nothing to do, once they get the
variance, as long as they stay within the figures, they can build whatever
they want to build.
Inaudible:
Ms. Holshouser: Why not?
Mr. Grassie: Say it on the record, sir so everybody can hear it.
Ms. Holshouser: They have to build according to the plans on file, I grant
you. But the plans on file we hear again from Mr. Rice that at great expense
they've changed something else in the plans. Now, I am here to tell you, we
haven't seen those plans again. We have acted in good faith all the way, up
to an including tonight when Mr. Rice was upset about something else, has
rn.
180
FEE 2 ? 1979
nothing to do with it. So when he was upset about that I went to a lot
of trouble to play, and I told all three of those gentlemen then, I play
it square. I don't come in here with anything hidden. Now, I don't know
whether it is hidden or not, but to walk in here, after having those con-
versations with all of us out there, and never even show us what they put
up to you all, I don't consider that is acting in good faith. Time after
time, for months now, they have been told get together with the people and
compromise. They've never gotten together with us. They came to us one time.
I told Mr. Dean then what we thought was right and we've gone on from there.
They are asking for more than they are entitled to. Please, please, let them
be the shining example of saying, 'yes, you can make money if you build
within the law.' Couldn't we just once have that kind of landmark decision
in the Grove. Let them build it. I'll go to their opening. I'll send them
flowers, but let them build what they are entitled to build and no more.
Please. Thank you.
Mr. Plummer: Mr. Davis and Mr. Whipple. She makes a very good point. I don't
agree with all of her points but I have to ask the question since you brought
it to her attention. The plans on file is what they are required to do. Is
this which has been proffered the plans on file?
Mr. Davis: These are the record plans received as part of the application
and if granted will be the plans which the Building Department uses to check
the incoming plans with to make sure that they agree with, and therefore in
essence these are the plans which they will build to, if they are granted.
Mr. Plummer: So then that alleviates Joanne's fear and mine that they could
do something other than these as presented. Am I correct?
Mr. Davis: They alter the plans which have been altered,to meet the 1.79
that they are petitioning for at this point. Now if you grant something
else the plans would have to meet that and would be subject to further
approval. If for instance you were to grant something less than 1.794,
the plans would have to be altered to agree with the agreed upon Floor
Area Ratio , or the granted Floor Area Ratio.
Mayor Ferre; What is the silence all about?
Mr. Plummer: We are waiting for the wisdom of the middle chair.
Mayor Ferre: You don't have to worry about me. You know exactly how I feel.
Rev. Gibson: Let me say what bothers me. If this man can build, all things
being equal let's assume that we close the street, the alley, and I want
to tell everybody, I am for closing the alley. I happen to have lived in an
alley, and I know the dangers. Its like those people who were here earlier
and the developers talking about giving the people some 20 ft. That was a
bunch of hogwash. Somebody had to keep it up. I'd rather close the alley
and I think it's only reasonable, if you close the alley I don't think
you and I ought to be arguing about who owns the land. Because the land
comes off, the alley comes from the owners. That's really how you get it.
Now you don't have to be a brilliant team to see that. I don't understand,
and this is where I'm dumb, if a man can build 180 units and he would
rather build 104, my ghetto concept is that if you have 180 units that
means more people. If you have 103, it would reduce the number, and I
heard what you said they could smoke more cocaine, --they are going to
smoke it anyway. I mean sniff more cocaine, --that's what was said last
time. They are going to sniff it anyway. The point I make is, you know, --
and this would shock you coming from me, a ghetto boy, a poor boy, I am
not at all adverse to people who have money. The only thing I regret is
I don't have some. I wish I bad it. And so I don't mind the guy who could
afford to buy a larger apartment unit than I. I just want to live decently
and and in order. And if he could buy it, thank God for him. Hopefully
one of these days, if he doesn't give me some of that money, or let me
live in the apartment, it'.11 give me some of the amenities that go with
that apartment to nse in size of apartment that I could acquire. I just
thought I'd better put that on the record so that nobody would think
that I an opposed to people who have money. And I want to say this about
the Grove, I wasn't born in the Grove. I born on 12th and 2nd, but I've
been here 33 years and I doubt seriously anybody has any more love for the
rn.
181
FEB 2 2 1979
Grove than I. When I was able to go Michigan I didn't go. When I was
able to go to the Virgin Islands, --do you remember that? I didn't go
because I love the Grove. And let me say this my brethren, change indicat-
ing all around you see, we are going to have to change. And you know I
didn't like Mayfair. And I didn't like Yacht Harbor, and I never forget it,
and I'm going to shut up on this.I never will forget that the people in the
Grove led me up a primrose path once. Do you remember that? They told me,
said I want you to send me to court. I said you want me to send you to
court? Yes. They thought they had Murray Sanders there, attorney. How
many of you remember that? Murray Sanders came in there and you all
thought you had him in place, and all of a sudden Murray Sanders became
the lawyer for the other people. Now, what worries me, is if what you have
said to me, if it isn't true, somebody stand up and say that's a lie. You
said Yacht Harbor was built under,...
Mr. Rice:...1.81.
Mrs. Gordon: No variance, Father.
Rev. Gibson: But its a larger thing. Okay. It was 1.8 now its 1.79, okay.
Yc:: ',sr -du, I again, Theodore Gibson tells everybody down here that I went
to la. school for a day. If you made an exception or if people could prove
that you did it over here, why don't you let me do it over here, --look, so
you know how I am reasoning. Okay. I thought I had better put that on the
record.
Ma. or Ferre: Its 11:20 now and we still have a long way to go with another
p.L:ic hearing. I'll express my opinion on this. In the first place, with
Lo closing the street, I think that Dr. Robertson is getting an
awful lot. This Commission doesn't have to close that street and there
are a roc of properties around here where we decide not to close streets.
You knew, I might very well say that I agree with the F.A.R. that you want,
or whatever its called, --its getting late, and not close the street.
Mrs. Gordon: Maurice, if you do that he couldn't even have such a Floor
Area Ratio. He's counting his Floor Area Ratio on the closed portion as
well.
Mayor Ferre: The fact that we're closing the street in itself is just
one hell of a bonus. If we don't close the street, you just have two
pieces of property. And you are not entitled to have that street closed
for any reason. So I think that in itself is a major, major concession.
Now, on the other hand, you are entitled to it for a very simple reason.
You own both sides of the property and the street is an absolutely vacated,
not -used street. Certainly I am not going to hold you up one thing with
the other because the fact is, we do that all the time. We are continually
vacating streets, when they are not in use and the property owner is the
same on both sides. Nothing new to that. Now, the question of the club, I
think you were wrong and you recognize that and you gave up on it and the
don't have the little club anymore. You have one club, whether it is 2500
or 5,000 sq.ft. that is really not our concern. So we are now down to the
basic issue and that's the question of the Floor Area Ratio. Father, I
heard you and I respect your opinion, but that's not where I am coming
from, because the fact is 108 rather than 180,--you know, okay. I under-
stand, but I don't think is the main thrust. I think there are two issues
that sway me as they did last time, when I talked about the 1.77. In the
first place, I don't make any apology for the way Coconut Grove looks. I
think it looks beautiful. I want to tell you that I have the Manager's
commitment that before the end of this year all those Quonset huts are
all going to be torn down and I hope we will have green area there, or at
least most of it. I hope we don't get too much asphalt. I hope we get most
of it in green area. Please. Now that's going to make it even nicer. I hope
that we in the City of Miami, and that's another issue we are going to be
talking about fairly soon, tonight,or soon,we are going to be improving
the docks and the marinas here. We are going to get 500 first class boat
slips • I hope that we will someday be able to carry out this problem of
Charter House which is a first class restaurant operation, and get a first
class restaurant here. We don't want 20, but I hope we can get one or two.
182
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F E B 2 2 1979
I hope that we can lease the Auditorium and get a nice restaurant up on
the second floor of that Auditorium. The space is all in there. I'd love
to see a nice restaurant in that area. The festival the other day, vas
an unbelievable thing,-400 thousand people. Now, I realise that its all
a question of what your vision is of good. Some people would like for Coconut
Grove to be a nice, pastoral community the way it was 50 years ago. Well,
it isn't 50 years ago, —its 1979 and there is nothing you can do about that.
So what we have, some of the buildings that have come up, Sokolsky put up
a building up there. I argue with him all the time. He got a t 2.10, or
all kinds of variances and what -have -you.
Inaudible.
Mayor Ferre: I'll recognize you, --okay. The fact is that these very same
people that are here arguing against this when we are all here, including
Joanne, arguing against Al Sokolsky, and I remember that that was a vote
and it went till midnight again, and you got a 2.10 or whatever it is,
F.A.R.
Inaudible.
Mayor Terre: Okay. The same thing happened at Yacht Harbor and the other
one and what -have -you. And the fact is that what these people are asking
for is going from 1.65 to 1.79 and I want to tell you Jack, you made a
very nice presentation, but I can't vote with you. I just don't agree with
you. Now, the 1.77 is different because I happen to believe and I know
Mr. Fosmoen that we disagree on that. I happen to disagree on the question
of the bonus.I think that the arbitrary cutoff of the 1.5, and I heard you.
I think you made a very good point, that it wasn't arbritrary, that it was
a very well thought out point that it should stop at 1500 sq. ft. In my
opinion for a piece of property where that's located, and the type of
location and type of building that that should be, I see nothing wrong
if they go up toe 1600 ft. in giving them the difference between 1.65
and 1.72 which is .12. Now, as far as a hardship is concerned, the hard-
ship that I see in this, is that there is a flood criteria of 12 feet.
This is not an odd shaped piece of property so there's no hardship there.
Mr. Rice: It is odd shaped.
Mayor Ferre: Well, all right. It is odd shaped, but not that odd shaped.
It's a very large triangular piece. I don't know how you can really justify
the hardship on the triangular shape. Maybe you can. I am not going to
pass judgement on that. I think the fact is that there is a pattern estab-
lished there. The average of all those buildings, if you average them all up,
are very close. It's over 1.9 and this is 1.77 which is less Floor Area Ratio
than the other buildings that are there now, and that I could live with. But
I can't live with a 1.79. That's just my opinion.
)frs. Gordon: What could you live with? I didn't get your point. .
Mayor Terre: The 1.77 which is what,...
Mrs. Gordon: Well its still like granting a variance.
Mayor Terre: Well, Rose I said it last time and I say it today. That is
just one opinion.
Mrs.Gordon:W411,1et'• move this along Maurice. Its nearly midnight.
Cinderella goes home.
Mayor Terre: I do think you know, Dr. Robertson and Mr. Dean, that you
really owe these people the courtesy of sitting down with them and showing
them your building and explaining what it is that you want to do.
Mr. Rice: And I may add that we did, and they came back with a resolution
opposed,...
A
Tn.
183 FEB 2 2 1979
t
Mayor Ferre: Well so what, I mean that's their right to oppose you.
Mr. Rice: I showed them all about the change in club and that's the
reason 50 of them aren't here.
Mayor Ferre: You did meet with them Jimmy? Joanne you weren't invited
to this. Who did you meet with?
Inaudible.
Mr. Rice: It is very hard to meet with them your honor.
Inaudible.
Mayor Ferre: Look, what is the will of this Commission. It's now almost
11:30.
Mrs. Gordon: Which way do you want to go? Sixty-four down to sixty-two?
Sixty-three is eliminated. Sixty-four is a variance. If you settle that one
first, : l•now how to vote on 62.
favct ferre: What do you want to do? Its all the same to me.
Mrs. Gordon: Well personally, I sense the rest of this Commission isn't
going to like what I am going to do but I'm going to up hold the Planning
Board.
Ma\'L'r Ferre: There's a motion on item 64 to uphold the Planning Board. Is
tnert a second?
Mrs. Gordon: The Zoning Board, I'm sorry.
Mayor Ferre: The Zoning Board. Is there a second?
Mr. Plummer: Why are we not voting on 62 first?
Mrs. Gordon: Because I am not going to vote for 62 affirmatively J.L.
if,..
Mayor Ferre: Sixty-four goes for any kind of a variance..
Mrs. Gordon: I am not going to vote to close the street, because I don't
how this one is going to go on 64. If this one doesn't pass, in other
words, if the variance doesn't go through then he is going to build
without a variance, I'll certainly vote to close the street.
Mayor Ferre: She's entitled to that. So she moves now that Item 64 be,...
Mrs. Gordon: We uphold the Zoning Board which was for denial for the variance.
Mayor Ferre: Is there a second? For lack of a second it dies. What's the
will of the Commission? Come on let's go. One way or the other.
Rev. Gibson; I move 64 Mr. Chairman.
Mayor Ferre: What is it you are moving? Not 1.9.
Rev. Gibson: I am moving, --you said 1.77, is that what you said?
Mayor Ferre: Father that is my personal opinion.
Rev. Gibson: 1.77? I don't mind that. I'd go for the number you stipulated,
1.77,....
Mayor Ferre: What he is saying is that he is going to move item 64 on
tentative plat 1027 Jamestown Center with a 1.77 Floor Area Ratio. Is
there a second?
Mr. Plummer: 1.77,...let me ask this question. if we force this developer
to go to the 1.77, okay,..if we hold to that, what does that do? You see
rn.
184
I am now in a bind. I'm
that do to the plans on
Mr. Davis: The plans on
with the 1.77.
in a bind Mr. Davis if we go the 1.77, what does
file?
file Mr. Plummer would have to be revised to agree
Mr. Plummer: But what happens to the basement?
Mr. Davis: You could as a condition of this variance attach .any conditions
that you wished. If you wish to eliminate certain areas as part of this
1.77, this would be your prerogative. Of if you wish to reduce the
apartment area itself to bring it down to 1.77, you could attach that
condition to it. What I am saying is, you can bring this F.A.R. down
in any sense that you so wish.
Mr.Plummer: Yes, but,..I understand that. Okay. I understand exactly what
you are saying, but when she made her question, you said plans on file. Now,
Mr. Dean, --here's where I disagree with a lot of the statements this evening.
I think there has been an area of compromise. Not maybe as much as people
want, but I read here 1.90 was the original request. They have brought it
down from the original request and I've got to call that a compromise. They've
gone from two clubs to one. That to me is a compromise. You know, one speaker
I'm sure not knowing what he said uphold the professionals. Well they recom-
mend the two clubs. That is an area of compromise. Now, my question Mr. Davis
is, assuming that a 1.77 will fly, and that's what I'm reading here, Mr. Dean
has put here on file what he would do under the 1.794. We don't know what
will happen un the 1.77.
Mr. Davis: The only alternative to deleting by verbage, is to defer this
and look at a new set of plans.
Mr. Plummer: Let me ask you another question.
Mr. Whipple: May I suggest that under normal circumstances, the Commission
did not set forth how you wanted it reduced. We would leave this optional
with the applicant. In other words, if he wanted to reduce the unit size
or he wanted to reduce the size of the Club, as long as the plans are sub-
stantially in accord with those on file, if you would let them have that
option, unless you directed otherwise.
Mr. Plummer: Okay I don't have any problem with that. Maybe this is a
foolish statement. I don't have to make it, but I've just got to tell you
how I am thinking. And I want to tell you that I have no problem with the
1.794. I want to tell you that. But its pretty obvious, 1.794 is not going
to fly. I still say the day is coming where are going to spite the developer,
and we are going to see somebody say all right, by God, I can build 185 units,
and we are going to have 185.
Inaudible.
Mr. Plummer; Ted, let me say. We've disagreed. We disagreed on Fair Isle
with that item. Look, do you know what we are talking about? We are talking
about less than 2 units. We are talking about the possibility of between
108 and 180. Now, somewhere in between. You look at Mayfair and I want
to tell you something,— let me finish, okay?
Inaudible.
Mr. Plummer: No, we are not, we are talking about less than two units.
Mr. Whipple I asked you is that correct. Would you refer your answer?
Mr Whipple: The difference between 1.77 and 1.794 is approximately 2700
sq. ft. which is less than two units.
Mr. Plummer: 0f the proposed? Okay.
Mrs. Gordon: That's mot what you are really talking about. Be's talking
rn.
185
FEB 22 1979
about the difference between 1.65 and 1.79.
Mr. Plummer: That's right. That's what I'm asking you because mine
is equating between the 1.77 and the 1.794. Now, you talk about the
Mayfair. Okay? I'll tell you in my estimation that toning needs changing.
We changed that zoning to allow the Mayfair based upon the pleadings
of Coconut Grove to change to new classifications. And unless something
radical happens with that Mayfair, in my estimation, I'm not proud of it.
Because I am going to tell you there is tremendous, tremendous bulk in
that building. Now, look, there's a motion on the floor for the 1.77.
If there is no other second I will second the motion of 1.77. I've made
my point clear.
Mayor Ferre: I don't mean to be crude about this Plummer, but you sure
take an awful long time to die.
Mr. Plummer: Its because I've had so much experience Mr. Mayor.
Mayor Ferre: We have a motion and second at 11:34 at night. Further
discussion on the motion on item 64.
26. PUBLIC HEARING: GRANTING OF APPEAL BY JAMES G. ROBERTSON, OVERRULE
ZONING BOARD'S DENIAL OF VARIANCE TO PERMIT A STRUCTURE ON
TENTATIVE PLAT IE1027 "JAMESTOWN CENTER" WITH A .177 FLOOR AREA
RATIO.
Mayor Ferre:Call the roll.
The following resolution was introduced by Commissioner Gibson who
moved its adoption:
RESOLUTION NO. 79-102
A RESOLUTION GRANTING A VARIANCE FROM ORDINANCE NO.
6871, ARTICLE XI, SECTION 5, TO PERMIT A STRUCTURE
NORTH OF THE INTERSECTION OF MARY STREET AND BAYSHORE
DRIVE, BEING TENTATIVE PLAT NO. 1027 - "JAMESTOWN
CENTER", AS PER PLANS IN FILE, WITH A 1.77 FLOOR
AREA RATIO (FAR) (1.65 FAR PERMITTED WITH BONUSES):
ZONED R-C (RESIDENTIAL OFFICE) DISTRICT
(Here follows body of resolution, omitted here and on
file in the Office of the City Clerk.)
Upon being seconded by Commissioner Plummer, the resolution was
passed and adopted by the following vote -
AYES: Rev. Gibson, Mr. Plummer, Mr. Lacasa, Mayor Ferre.
NOES: Mrs. Gordon.
rn.
186 rEz 137' 3
27. PUBLIC REARING -VACATION AND CLOSURE OF CLARK CT. AND
DEL MONDE STREET, AS PER TENTATIVE PLAT #1027-"JAMESTOWN
CENTER"
Mayor Terre: Itea 62.
Rev. Gibson: I move 62
Mr. Plummer: I second the motion.
Mayor Ferre: Call the roll.
The following resolution was introduced by Commissioner Gibson who
moved its adoption:
RESOLUTION NO. 79-103
A RESOLUTION OFFICIALLY VACATING AND CLOSING CLARK COURT
AND DEL MONDE STREET, BOUNDED BY MARY STREET AND BAYSHORE
DRIVE, AS PER TENTATIVE PLAT NO. 1027 - "JAMESTOWN CENTER"
(Here follows body of resolution, omitted here and on
file in the Office of the City Clerk.)
Upon being seconded by Commissioner Plummer , the resolution was
passed and adopted by the following vote -
AYES: Rev. Gibson, Mr. Plummer, Mr. Lacasa, Mayor Ferre.
NOE3: Mrs. Gordon.
28. GRANT APPEAL BY JAMES G. ROBERTSON OF ZONING BOARD'S DENIAL OF
CONDITIONAL USE TO PERMIT A 5,000 SQ. FT. PRIVATE CLUB ON
PROPERTY BEING TENTATIVE PLAT f1027 - "JAMESTOWN CENTER",
SUBJECT TO REMOVAL OF OLD CLUB.
Mayor Ferre: Tell me about 63.
Mr. Davis: If I may make one further explanation on this Mr. Mayor and
Commissioner, in checking with our representative from the Building
Department here I asked him the question, if this were denied, could
the existing club be destroyed and a club be built in the new building
without the public hearing, and he says he could not accept such an
application. He says that the club being destroyed it would lose its
license. So if this is denied in the sense that it is now, they would
be limited to the existing private club. However, they could enlarge it.
Mr. Plummer: Well Bob, correct me if I am wrong. This Commission does not
in fact set the footage of a private club as long as it meets the minimum ?
Mr. Davis: They can, sir.
Mr. Plummer: What we in fact are voting upon is the right to have a private
club or not to have a private club. Is that correct?
Mr. Davis: Not exactly sir. It the right, whether not you want to have a
private club in their new structure, beside the one existing. Now you could
if you so wished this, to hold for the new club in the new structure, and
with the condition that you eliminate the present club.
Mr. Plummer: Well what are you saying, that this 63 has got to be rewritten?
Mr. Davis: It could be done by, I'm sure, the Law Department with no problem.
rn.
187
FEB 2 21979
Mr. Whipple: If its the Commission's desire, they could approve a
private club with the stipulations that the old club is removed.
Mayor Ferre: Okay, that's the way to do it.
Rev. Gibson: You need a motion? We'll be here all night. I move.
Mayor Ferre: Seconded by Plummer, and there's a specific stipulation
that there be a removal of the old club. Call the roll.
Mr.Plummer: Well more emphatic Mr. Mayor is that it is understood there
will be one club not to exceed the 5,000 sq. ft.
Mayor Ferre: Under discussion. Call the roll.
The following resolution was introduced by Commissioner Gibson who
moved its adoption:
RESOLUTION NO. 79-104
A RESOLUTION GRANTING A CONDITIONAL USE AS LISTED
IN ORDINANCE NO. 6871, ARTICLE XI, SECTION 1(5)(a),
TO PERMIT THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A 5,000 SQ. FT.
PRIVATE CLUB AS PER PLANS ON FILE ON PROPERTY
LOCATED NORTH OF THE INTERSECTION OF MARY STREET
AND BAYSHORE DRIVE, BEING TENTATIVE PLAT NO. 1027
"JAMESTOWN CENTER", ZONED R-C (RESIDENTIAL OFFICE)
DISTRICT, SUBJECT TO THE REMOVAL OF THE EXISTING
PRIVATE CLUB KNOWN AS THE JAMESTOWN CLUB.
(Here follows body of resolution, omitted here and on
file in the Office of the City Clerk.)
Upon being seconded by Commissioner Plummer , the resolution was
passed and adopted by the following vote -
AYES: Rev. Gibson, Mr. Plummer, Mr. Lacasa, Mayor Ferre.
NOES: Mrs. Gordon.
ABSENT: None.
ABSTAINING: None.
29 DEFERRAL OF CONSIDERATION OF PUBLIC HEARING ON THE VACATION AND
CLOSURE OF N.W. 37TH STREET BETWEEN WEST RIGHT-OF-WAY LINE OF
N.W. 5TH AVENUE AND EAST RIGHT-OF-WAY LINE OF 36TH STREET
INTERCHANGE (TENTATIVE PLAT #682-A "SPEAR AND FELDSTEIN SUB")
Mr. Davis: If I may Mr. Mayor, there's one item, 66 that remains on
the Zoning agenda. The applicants had to leave but its not controversial
and has not been controversial at any point.
Mr. Plummer: Its not on here.
Mayor Ferre: Its a non controversial thing. A floor area ratio of 3.8.
Mr. Davis: This is item 66 sir.
Mrs. Gordon: What's the urgency of taking it. The applicant he says is gone.
Mr. Davis: They had to leave.
Mrs. Gordon: Look at all the people sitting here waiting for an item
that's still before us. Let's do that after we get through.There's a lot
of things that will take a second later on.Let's move along with the
ones the people are waiting for.
Mayor Ferre: Item 82.
rn.
188
L 2 "1�
PUBLIC HEARING - !ter matter of proposed agreement ith
BISCAYT?E RECREATION INC. FOR operation/development
30. of DUMB KEY MARVA to the MIMII WATEPSROITT BOARD
for deliberation and recommendation to the
City Commission
Mr. Fosmoen: Mt. Mayor, the last time the Commission considered the management
agreement with Biscayne Recreation, there were two issues that were raised by the
Commission. One was the term of the agreement. There was some concern over A
10 year term and the other item that vas raised by two of the City Commissioners
related to the absence of any percentage to the City from various concessions that
would be permitted under the lease or under the management agreement.
I believe that Biscayne Recreation is here with a presentation to the Commission.
Those two issues are still before you.
You also, I would point out, have a memorandum in your agenda packet, that speaks
to the issue of Marina expansion and operation.
Mr. Plummer: Pinpoint for me. What are the two items of disagreement?
Mr. Fosmoen: Mr. Commissioner, there were two items that were raised by this
Commission at the last meeting. We brought to you a contract that we could recommend.
The matters that you expressed concern over were the terms, the length of the
agreement, 10 ye.,rc. and the absence of any percentage to the City from the concessions.
Mr.. Plum^::: 71..E is in reference to Dinner Key?
Mr. Fosmoen: Yes Sir.
Mr. Plummer: Now, I think, Mr. Fosmoen, it behooves you to be as brief as possible,
but at least put on the record that new recommendation that you have made to the
Commission.
Mr. Fos:,.",, wish, simply a summary, I can read for you, the recommendations.
There is backup material on it and I think you have all had an opportunity to read
it.
The staff rEcomtimcnation to the Commission is that we 1/1 - seek consultant services
immediately and prepare a preliminary design plans and obtain permits for the
expansion a.id renovation of Dinner Key. 02 - that we elevate the division of marinas
to full department status and recruit a qualified director. #i3 - adopt at the earliest
possible date, the Marina Plan, as city policy for marina expansion. 1!4 - undertake
expansion of Dinner Key including the annexusing city issued revenue bonds. #15 -
establish a waterfront improvement fund to be capitalized from each marina.
#16 - approve the management contract for Miamarina for a maximum of 4 years and
#7 - consider the management concept for Dinner Key after reconstruction and
expansion have been completed.
Now, as you indicated, that is a new recommendation from the staff. Let me give you
several reasons why:
We have been talking about letting out Dinner Key and Miamarina for almost 2 years,
to private management. Approximately 4 months ago, this Commission approved prepar-
ation of a Marina Development Plan for the City. That plan recommends and indicates
that we can add literally hundreds of marina slips in the City of Miami to serve the
boating public.
When the Commission first started talking about leasing out or putting out for manage-
ment agreement Dinner Key and Miamarina, you were talking about, if you will, getting
out of the marina business. Based on the study that has been prepared and will be
presented to you at your next meeting, its apparent if you accept that study and accept
that the city should expand and improve marina facilities, we are not going to be
getting out of the marina business.
Secondly, the expansion and improvement at Dinner Key, at this point relies on City
issued revenue bonds. In issuing those revenue bonds, the Commission is going to
have to retain approval over operating budget and over rate structures as required
under the revenue bond statute under which we issue revenue bonds.
Therefore, you are really not again getting out of the marina business.
The contract that is before you is subordinated to a future revenue bond ordinance.
We don't even have prepared a draft of that revenue bond ordinance at this point.
We would be entering into a management agreement that would be subordinate to a
future ordinance passed by this commission.
I think that it is going to present a very difficult situation to this Commission
6 months down the road, when you consider a revenue bond ordinance.
Basically that, and those, are the reasons why we are suggesting that in the short
run, you proceed with the expansion of Dinner Key after that facility is completed
and expanded, we then look at management agreements.
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189
Mr. Fosmoen: (Cont'd) We are suggesting that it is possible au this point to
enter into the management agreement on Miamarina because that facility is already
built and constructed and we are not complicating that process by a large revenue
bond.
Mrs. Gordon: Can I ask you some questions Mr. Fosmoen?
Mr. Plummer: Would you comment on what you just heard Sir?
Mr. Coniff: I am Ray Coniff, William R. Hough and Company. Mr. Fosemoen and I
haven't talked about this. I am from North Palm Beach. This is the first I have
seen this and this morning when I talked to Mr. Fosmoen, he did clue me in to this
first paragraph. Initially and for a long time, I am not sure that I ever lost the
point of view that except for your desire to be out of the Marina business, as it
seemed to me that you were intending to be, I could never see a reason why you shouldn't
stay in the marina business but that is a policy decision of yours.
So far as what might happen later, that is a decision you could come to later.
Now, so far as our firm is concerned, we can with the proper bond resolution and with
competitive reasonable rates for service, I would say that we could market the bonds
all right under the kind of proposal that Mr. Fosmoen is digging into here.
Mr. Plummer: I am more concerned at Mr. Fosmoen's statement in opposition as it was
that he forsees problems 6 months down the pike under the other proposal of floating
the bonds at that time. Would you comment on that?
%r. Cc iff: t months down the line, I don't know if you will have a marina deal or
not, that wou1r expand the situation because there are permits that have to be made.
I thirk thin is the basis of the expansion of the marina, that without the proper
permits-
".r. F1urs:..er: You are speaking to the bonding.
Mr. Fosmoen: I am sure I stated my position clearly for you. You have before you a
vannement =i7-Eement. One of the paragraphs in that management agreement says that
the agreement subordinate to any future revenue bonds that this Commission issues
for the expansion of Dinner Key. What I am saying to this Commission is that I think
that paragre is going to present some very serious problems because you are entering
into an agreement today that is subordinate to an ordinance that you don't even have
a craft of yet. It does not relate and the reason that the paragraph is in there was
upon recommendation of bond counsel. That paragraph was put in there to cover the
current agrc rn nt but I think it is going to be a very confusing issue in 6 months or
8 months from now when this Commission is presented with a bond ordinance.
Mrs. Gordon: Can I ask Mr. Fosmoen some questions now Mr. Mayor? First of all,
Mr. Fosmoen. your recommendations are ambiguous. Do you know why? Because it
appears to me that in your recommendations, you have 7 points. The first one is to
immediately seek consultant services, prepare preliminary design plans and obtain
permits for the expansion and renovation of Dinner Key. That's fine. Two, you wish
to elevate the division of marinas to a full department and recruit a qualified
director which indicates your intention to stay in the marina business.
Three, adopt at the earliest possible date the marina plan as city policy for marina
expansionis fine because that is in line with the same idea so far. Four - undertake
expansion of Dinner Key including the annex using city issued revenue bonds, again that
is in line with the city operation taking place. Establish a waterfront fund to be
capitalized from each marina. Thats okay, that is still in line with the same idea.
Then you go to six, which is contrary to what you have said up to that point.
Which is, approve the management contract for Miamarina for a maximum of- Why?
If you are going to go to all of those first 5 items, do you want to go to number 6?
Nzmber 7 Appears to me and you verified it by your conversation, is just a
mechanism to permit the bonding and the revenue bonding to take place and then you
are going to lease it out so therefore, who are you fooling? Nobody, not even anybody,
even at midnight. I feel put upon by this kind of a recommendation.
Mr. Fosmoen: Well I am sorry that you feel put upon but let me assure you that I am
not attempting to fool anyone. There are 7 very clear points there. We are also
suggesting that this city undertake a major expansion of its marina facilities, not
only at Dinner Key, but at other places, Virginia Key for example. It does not seem
inconsistent to me Commissioner, that this City could have 1 marina under a management
agreement which would begin to give us baseline information on which functions more
effectively, a private management firm or the city's marina operation. Well you have
already decided you are not going to agree.
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190
f
& . ;77,
Mrs. Gordon: No because I see the agenda that is beneath the surface and I am sorry,
well it is --
Mr. Fosmoen: It also seems- I don't have an agenda that is beneath the surface
Commissioner and it also seems reasonable to me that if the Commission and the City
wishes to undertake a major expansion of marina facilities, that one marina can be
under a management agreement, that after Dinner Key is reconstructed, we may want to
consider a management agreement for Dinner Key while you are persuing other marina
expansion such as at Virginia Key and other parts in the city that have waterfront
access.
Mrs. Gordon: We set up a Board today and what you are recommending is a department
and I will tell you that I am not in favor of another department and I think you
can hire the personnel you need and you don't have to have another department. You have
plenty of them now.
I honestly feel that -
Mr. Fosmoen: Commissioner, If I may respond. The functions of the marina division
today, in my opinion, are purely housekeeping. It's like having a manager for an
apartment house. It's a daily operation and while the people manage those facilities
on a day to day basis, and do a fair job, they do not have the ability within that
division to undertake a major marina expansion in the city.
Mrs. Cordon: Do you know what I think this Commission ought to do, really and truly?
I honestly believe that we owe it to the people of the city of Miami, that we honestly
owe it to them to get an expression from them at the ballot box whether they want our
public lands leased out to private interests. I really mean that.
If we went to the people on a smoking ordinance or beer in the orange bowl, people
are being asked whether they want to smoke in buildings, they have more of a vested
interest in the public lands than they have in anything else.
Mayor Ferre: All right, anything else?
Mr. Traugott: My name is Robert M. Traugott. I am director of Biscayne Recreation
Development. Let me tell you that we have been negotiating with this City for over
2 years to effect a contract. Our first proposal to this City was to completely
finance this entire project out of our own pocket but a project that you are going to
finance that is going to cost 4 to 5 million dollars, 3 to 5 million, required more
than a 5 or 10 year contract to do unless you want to turn this into a millionaires
yacht basin and charge fantastic rates. The City said to us, we do not want to give
out a long term lease and we abided by the city's position and we have negotiated for
e period of long 7 months, give and take with the staff and we have appeared before
this Commission on a couple of public hearings. We even agreed with the staff, that
we would subordinate our contract to any bond issue requirements that would be dealt
to us. To bring this issue into focus, permit me to bring this matter out of the fog.
Too many subterranean and devious schemes are being injected into this controversy.
Let us not be so naive and disregard the fact that the major news media of this town
is desirious of closing the books on the City of Miami and relegating its citizens
to the jurisdiction of the county.
Mayor Ferre: Now Bob, that is my line and I would appreciate that line to me and
you stick to your line about the Marina and don't you interfere. Don't you get in-
volved in knocking the newspapers around here, I am the guy who does that.
Mr. Traugott: Most of the opposition to this is based on false premises. Let us
talk about the people, the homesteaders who now reside at Dinner Key and who keep
girths at Dinner Key. It is my opinion that the waterfront, the Dinner Key Marina
dock is the property of all of the people of Miami. Since we have been into this
many of the people, many of the citizens who don't own boats, never will own boats.
don't care about owning boats, have come to us and have said, why are you so timid
about rates? Why are you so timid about this situation?
This is a commercial project out there that should be developing funds to help defray
the cost of running the City. I have watched here tonight, groups of people come
up here that had to be denied money. There are sources of money in commercial property.
The issue, stripped of all its counter non -productive nonsense, is whether or not
private enterprise can better manage a business facility than government.
Mayor Ferre, on numerous occasions, on July 28th, you expounded at great length on
the ability of private management to do a better job at the Marina.
You went into such complex situatLons, that I believe that it would be a good chapter
for civic books, history books and government books of the United States.
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191
R
W. Traugott: (Cont'd) vn November 18, You appeared on Channel 4 in which
you again expressed the desire of having private management run Dinner Key Marina.
A few days later, you were on Channel 10 advocating the same situation.
I would like to point out that Commissioner Plummer, has on repeated occasions,
expressed and demonstrated his faith in private enterprise, as indeed he might, for
he is a member of the business fraternity even though his concern is at the end of
lifes road.
Commissioner Lacasa, even though he is new to the Commission, is not new to the
business world and his views are well known as a major advocate of private enterprise.
Father Gibson, who primarily balances his asset sheets with salvaging souls is yet
a respector of the efficiency of private enterprise.
Commissioner Gordon who is a success story in the field of realestate and business,
has in this situation, gone astray.
Mrs. Gordon: No, no, no. You can buy land and build something on it but not the use
of the publics land to make a profit.
W. Traugott: I find that rather strange Mrs. Gordon because I have been in this
Commission, when on several different occasions, you have voted for private marinas
being developed on public lands.
Mrs. Gordon: I am sorry. If you want to bring up some other issues, we will talk
about that. You talk to your issue. You tell me why you think that you should have
Dinner Key Marina and why you should make a profit and why the City should not operate
it, go ahead.
Mr. Traugott: All right, we would like tonight to remind this Commission that this
waterfront belongs to all of the people of Miami, that the conduct of business is that
this marina should be for the benefit of all citizens and not just the few residents
and dockers at the marina. Much criticism has been made regarding private contracts
'its: the City but let me point out that Merrill -Stevens over here pays over $100,000
a year to the City. Grove Key Marina pays over $60,000 a year to this City.
The Rusty Pelican pays over $100,000 a year to this City. Now, compare this with a
-a:ira that has been operated by the city for 40 years at a subsidized cost to the
itizens of Miami.
We would like tonight to explode two basic myths:
The first r:yth is that the City ever made money at Dinner Key and we have the facts
and figures to prove that they never did. That government can run business.
k'.: do not want to paint a picture of city and government employees as idiots and
incompetents for indeed they are not but we do question their ability to run profit
oriented businesses. The business of government such as paving streets, providing
police and fire protection, schools, libraries, social programs and a host of other
functions of government are services and not businesses and they are not construed
to produce profit.
Government administrators understand these functions. They do them well. Indeed
when businessmen sometimes enter these fields, they cannot cope with the frustrations
and they often fail in these endeavors. The capabilities and talents and training of
government professionals ill suits them to function as businessmen.
There are, in most instances out of their element but when an ideal marriage is made
between government role, government and business, a perfect relationship can happen.
We are prepared tonight to show you countless numbers of marinas accross this country
that are operated in cooperation with private business and government and funded with
revenue bonds, private capital and all sorts of things.
The role for government, under our proposal would be to retain dominion over the
property. Control rates, approve budgets and set policy. The business role would
be to provide the expertise of management which is an acknowledged talent of business.
To effect the economics in operation, again, a talent of business. To use imagination,
expansion and development for the growth of the marina. To ensure the maintenance of
the business and upkeep of the facility to provide the customers with courteous, prompt
and excellent service.
I would like to at this time, introduce Mr. Walker who will substantiate by facts and
fugures, the things that I have expounded, if you will permit me to.
Mr. Paul Walker: Thanks Robert. I thought the last time we had a public meeting
we had covered just about everything and I expected a vote one way or the other last
time but for some reason it was postponed. I would just like to cover some of the
things that have happened to us in the last year. One of them is very hard to
understand and that is that not once, not once in a year in either of the newspapers
of this City, have I found anything near the truth on the facts and figures of what
we were offering for the marina. There has always been something covered or hidden
or not mentioned. In the Miami Herald this morning it said: The proposed contract
with Biscayne Recreation doesn't offer the city a guaranteed income. In the agreement
that you people had and dozens of other people had, at the open meeting last time,
the agreement was covered and the guarantee was stated. At the same time, the Hough Co.
who works with the City of Miami produced a projection of 5 years that gave the guarantee
to the City and then mentioned that if there was any profits, that 50% of the profit
would go to the City. All that ever gets mentioned is, if there were any profits,
50% would go to the City.
FL 4 .
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192
W. Walker: (Cont'd) It forgets that the Hough.Report said 3 years down the road
the income would be $2031000 and it would continue at $203,000 guaranteed for
years and years. One other thing that has happened: This is something that became
a fact from a sheet I hold in my hand and this sheet has been used by the people that
would knock out private enterprise as facts and the sheet says Dinner Key Marina
preliminary operating statement year ended September 30, 1978. Jim, I would like to
have you turn that over.
(Audio -Visual presentation commences using charts)
This sheet shows»These are the figures that have been quoted and quoted as the profit
that the marina made and that comes from an unaudited is used over and over.
I will show where this revenue comes from. These are the gross receipts.
The top line is the dock at Dinner Key Marina - $458,000
Then, it says "Annex income" the annex income is not in this deal at all, so that
$31,600 is wiped out. Miscellaneous is unimportant. The interest is for a fund that
the city has that they believe belongs to the marina but that is questionable but
theta $13,000 so the true income is overstated by $44,780 if you are talking about the
docks.
These are your figures. Every one of these figures, the people from the trust have
but they use them differently.
These are the actual figures handed out to the people who asked for them about 8
or 9 months ago.
i want to call your attention to 4 figures on this sheet. The first is salaries.
2ry surprising:, thine, that the salaries there are $121,000. It was budgeted the
year before this year at $185,000. The reason for the change is that for the year
they liar] 8 CE:r employees - $60,000 so the payroll was $60,000 less than budgeted.
How many tim;s do we run payroll less than budgeted?
The next item is electricity. $41,000 for electricity. Do you know what City hall
pays? Exactly the same figure. Do you know what the barracks pay, that you want
to tear down: Half of that figure. The City of Miami light bill for this building,
the barracks and the marina, is prorated and 40% is charged to the marina, 40% to
city hall and 20% to the barracks.
Mayor Ferre: You mean its done on an average basis, we don't have meters on them?
Mr. Walker: They have meters and the staff tells me that they use the meters to
check but they haven't come to any conclusion but the man that told me how it is
rated, 4O/0/20 works for the city and has worked for the city for some 10 years and
ha said he was told how to do it. 10 years ago, and he is still doing it the same
way . His name is Holland?
Mayor Ferre: Paul, the question is, is that for heat or light.
Mr. Walker: I just want to prove something. If you know what your electric bill
is at home or your small apartment or anything you own, I want to tell you what
an electric bill is per slip at Dinner Key because of this way of figuring. I am
going to try to get my neighbors to go in on a deal like this with me because the
Docks, forget the fact that they are lit because that is in the $41,000.
Forget the fact that the walkways around are lit because that is in the $41,000.
The cost per slip on this basis is $9.33 a month per slip, per boat for the people
out on the marina. I can't remember when it was ever $9.33. I used to live here
in Dinner Key on a boat and I think I made a big mistake by leaving.
The next thing - water is OK, except I will tell you this, that all the water that
omes into the Dinner Key area, the 2 meters are right in the circle in front and
don't know where the pipes go to and they don't know whether they are charging
that right or not.
Insurance is 19, and this bothered me because we went to 3 insurance companies and
for adequate insurance on the marina, it would cost 40 to 50 thousand dollars
and the policy we were thinking of would cost about $49,000.
You don't really have liability insurance if you look into it and if you had an
accident on the pier like the accident that happened on Watson Island the other day
where two boats burned up at the end of a pier and burned some of the pier, you are
not covered. You don't have fire insurance out there and you don't have some other
insurances out there so that if you are taking a risk, I think you are picking up the
first $250,000.
The big highlight is that last line (on the chart). It says: Reconstruction expense
$977.00. You know, you can show a $185,000 profit if you don't pay anything to have
anything fixed up.
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Mr. Walker: (Cont'd) The city has these figures and this is the difference
CETA employees if you didn't have them, I am sure you would have had the $185,000
payroll. The adjustment for electricity I am sure is $20,000. I believe the
insurance is 30. If you put in adequate repair should be in the docks, you would
have to put in at least $50,000 a year. That is $160,000.
So we reported an excess of $185.000 that everyone believes. You take off the money
that is coming in from the annex. the interest amount and you end up with an actual
loss of $19.737 and I will give this whole program to the City so they can check out
the figures.
Now everybody says they made on $458,000, •�-
Mayor Ferree The fact is that it doesn't include any depreciation. If this were a
private business, you would have 100 to 200,000 a year depreciation so I will tell
you, one way or the other, there is no question in my mind that for the $450,000
of gross income, which is not $450,000, its $380,000, that comes into the City,
that this City isn't making any money but that's another subject.
Mr. Walker: I just wanted to say that the actual expense was barely constant,
about $385,000 a year to operate the docks. Last year when the rates were raised,
you had the best year ever $458,000. The year before, the income for a few months
was increased so it was $349,000. The year before, the income and this includes
that Dinner Key annex down there, it isn't just the docks, $286,000 and the year
before that, $283,000. Now is you think you can spend 283/75/76/349/77 and make
a profit for the years of $350 to $385 expense, you are kidding yourself and Mr.
Mayor you hrcugLt cut the fact of the depreciation. The use of funds to operate
it. It's just impossible, the Dinner Key Marina never made money.
`:rz. Gcrdon: Jest a question at this point Mr. Walker.
Mr. Walker: These are just simply what the budget was because some things I --
Mrs. Gordon: But it is important at this point for me to ask a question and that
is this.
You have shop:., us Low we didn't make money. How would you make money unless you
double;: or tr..iied the rent? I am just asking. It doesn't seem logical.
?:r. Walker: Ncnot necessarily. Just like running a business over that hadn't
made money in 6 years and made money the first -
This is the budget of the year 77. I wanted to use it as the basis for 75 and 76
so you can see how it ran. This was the budget request for the year ending
September 30, 1979. This is the year we are in. Now I have every one of these
figures up to this point, from sitting down with people, talking with them and I
have asked them for copies, so everything I have here. I got this sheet from
Mr. Gunderson. He took it out of his budget book, reproduced it and gave me a copy.
Now, if the income for Dinner Key is the same this year as it was last year and it
will be because the rates are the same. That's $458,000. You can see that
Mr. Gunderson has a budget of $560,000 so if this is spent, the City of Miami
will lose another $100,000 on the marina.
Now, all of these figures are available to you but I will give you my copies.
Then there were several discussions on the concession that the City was not getting
anything from the concession income, so on page, 6, paragraph x of the management
agreement, the building costs to be paid in full of bond funds used. That is the
first thing we do on concessions and remember on these concessions, we just get
the shell of the building like the bait and tackle place. We have to fixture it
and how do you fixture it and write it off in 8 years? It would probably take
that long if we ever got it because the average store writes things off in 12 years.
Anyway after we get the shell and put the fixtures in and stocking it, 50% of the
amount that we paid for the bonds is paid to the city as part of its income, plus
1/35th of the bond funds used in construction is also paid to the city for depreciation,
replacement and repair and this 1/35th is in the major contract and this is going
to give you 12 million dollars at the end of 30 years to rebuild a new marina.
You won't get it any other way.
The only fugure that I will apologize that is my own up to this point are the
figures on this paper because I am not a bond expert. I took an amortization table
that a realestate person would use and then I figured out what the debt service
would be for that table. We pay first $4,875 if the Bait and Tackle thing costs
$50,000.
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Mr. Walker: (Conted)
The next thing we pay to the city would be $2,438 which is 502 of the first debt
service. The next thing is 1/35th for depreciation and replacement and that comes
to $1,429. So on a $50,000 building, we would spend $8,742 as rent and remember
this is a shell and that comes to 17.482 of the dollars spent to build the building.
Now one remark was just made and that remark was, should be left in the city's hands.
I just want to tell you that America's f1 Marina by everyones evaluation is the
Marina Del Rey. People that have never seen it, know about it. They hear it quoted
and quoted - 6000 slips. The City and the County of Los Angeles owns the land and
the waterfront land and who operates it? Its operated by these Marina companies:
Tahiti Marina etc. and right on down. The managing director of this marina I believe
sent each of you a telegram today that says the 800 acres of land and water owned by
Los Angeles County are mostly leased to private developers in 56 leaseholds.
This is the 01 marina in the world for the private development and operation of
public facilities with a very wide range of facilities and service. Most county
leasees have 60 year term leases including 20 anchorage leasees providing 5800 boat
slips.
Marina Del Rey is an enterprise Revenue Bond project which must be fully self-supporting.
rants from the leasing started in 1961 are the primary source of revenue.
harbor project has received world wide acclaim and is financially successful.
13 million revenue bond issue is being redeemed ahead of schedule. We will be
pleased to provide more data and it is addressed to the Mayor of the City of Miami
and the City Commission.
I don't want to read the others but one came from the developer of 5 marinas on
public land in New York and the other comes from Santa Anna California again a city
that leases to private developers. Why? Because they know that private developers
will produce and they are not sure. The thing to do, if you think the people are
now there running it and operating it, living on it, and forming these committees
are doing a good job, the thing to do is walk up and down the docks and look at the
marina and go to Bahia Mar in Fort Lauderdale which is on city property and run by
private enterprise. I just want to call to your attention the fact that the Marine
Council Board of Directors sent you last time an endorsement recommending that
Biscayne Recreation Development Company be granted the management agreement and I
believe they are a solid and sensible group and well worth listening to. I am not
going to take anymore time but we do have here with us, the publisher of the
Marina Management Magazine. Mr. Ronald Du Vernet and he came in and we are thankful
from New Orleans and he has had a long day as a lot of you people have.
. Du Vernet: My name is Ron Du Vernet. I publish this magazine called Marina
_nagemen; Marketing which is the foremost publication in the marina industry.
1 am from New Orleans. I publish out of New Orleans. I live in Biloxi, Missippi.
For what its worth, Governor Askew did make me an honorary citizen of this wonderful
state of yours.
I have to preface what I am going to say by saying this. I have no vested interest
with what is going on here at this point nor do I have any emotional involvement
as do most of these people here. Through the course of my years in this particular
business which has been numerous, I visit dozens and dozens of marina facilities
around this country. Over the course of the year, I also personally visit with
the Marina Seminars at various Marina Association Meetings, hundreds and hundreds
of marina operators and owners. Mr. Walker mentioned Marina Del REY. I remember
Marina Del Rey when it was a hole in the ground and in 10 years had 6000 slips.
26 restaurants and now has a community of 12,000 people plus untold amounts of
yacht brokerage and what have you. I can give you so many instances. For instance
Waukegan, Illinois, the city government is going to private developers to establish
800 to 1000 new slips. Go to Lake Ray Hubbard in the City of Dallas. Hundreds and
'.undreds of slips. Lake Canroe in Texas, 7 marinas and a very compatible relationship
-ith the City of Houston for several years. This is not something new or innovative.
The problems that you have here are not indiginous to this wonderful city of yours.
You people should be the leaders moreso than the followers in this particular industry.
You have everything in the world going for you. This is by far, and I have to admit,
I am a Californian by nature, but this is the best dammed area that I have seen for
a long long time.
When I first came in contact with the situation here, the Miami Bureau of Tourism
sent me a news release for publication stating that Dinner Rey and Miamarina were
up for bid and I believe it was about this time last year.
Shortly thereafter, I got a call as I get calls from dozens and dozens of marina
operators and owners who have specific problems and they feel that we may be of help
or if we cannot help them, give them some direction for what they want to do.
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Mr. Du Vernet: (Cont'd) Ti,.se gentlemen gave me a call. They told me that they
had specific problems, the problem being that what is the most efficient way we can
do this sort of thing. I have never seen a group of people and again I state, I do
not have a vested interest. I came here primarily to go to the Miami Boat Show which
I haven't been to yet and I have been here all day as you have. At any rate, these
people have really put together a super program, they really have. They put an awful
lot of time into it, a lot of effort and I have never seen a group of people so
interested in doing right by a community regardless of what people think.
I have never seen this before. You know, you talk about raising rates. I have been
through the facility here. I see what you need. You need a lot and you know that
as well as I do. I also took a tour of Matheson Hammock this afternoon. They raised
their rates from 5c to 9C. Inflation hits all parts of the consumer market. It also
hits this part of the consumer market. Compatability between government and private
enterprise is a reality and really I can't help but think they could really do you all
some good also. I won't take any more of your time.
R
Mayor Ferre: Thank you. All right.
Mr. Midkin: My name is Saul Midkin and I am this evening representing the Congress
of Senior Citizens. 16 years ago, Max Friedsen formed an organization which he
called the Congress of Senior Citizens. He was honored by you in these chambers on
his 80th birthday and you attested to his dedication to more than 10,000 members he
served so well. He has asked me to accept this commitment to work for the Senior
Citizens as Executive Director at the same salary that he has been receiving and I
agreed. Max sends his compliments to Mayor Ferre and the Commissioners for your
unwavering coura'_,: :r, the face of adversity to stand firm in the conviction on matters
which benefit the majority of the citizens, no matter how controversial they may be.
In this persistence to ideals which brought progress and change to the City and
recognition and investment for many latin american countries, there is increased
concern that the gross mismanagement of Dinner Key Marina has among other things
resulted in loss of revenues. The illusionary figures issued by the city accounting
department give the impression that the Marina at Dinner Key has been operated at a
profit. 1 am not going to go into that in any great detail because I think that
::r Wa1k:r hc- covered that very adequately. The point that the City has had no
accurate metno. of determining expenses and therefore do not realize a profit, in
fact the pru: :s shown are very deceptive. Now since the docks have been operating
at a .'.ass, the on]v conclusion that we can arrive at is that the citizens of Miami
have been subsicizing the cost of housing at the Marina.
The Miami Herald in an editorial this morning, titled "Base aid on need and not age
alone" said: Society has an obligation to help all those citizens who cannot help
themselves but every dollar spent for senior citizens who don't need help is a dollar
denied to those who do. I say that every dollar spent in supporting boat owners
who do not need it, is a dollar denied to the city's needy.
The City should not pay for the taxpayer financed facility, categorically to
subsidize boat owners. An increase has been substantiated by many marine experts
that I have spoken to and Marine operators and they have told me that an increase
of 15c a foot per day would indeed be very reasonable and it would probably show
a profit of at least $500,000 to the City which would totally accrue to them without
any reservations. I urge you to raise the rates as soon as possible to bring into
this City the much needed revenue that would alleviate many of the problems that
have been generated here.
Mayor Ferre: Thank you. Its 12:35 A.M. Mr. Grassie and I have been here since
7:45 this morning and I would hope that we are not going to take up any other
items after this. Can we defer in case there are any persons waiting for other
items, everything else until Monday at 2 P.M. This thing will last until 2 A.M.
and I am not about to vote. Its 12:30 now. All these people are going to want
to talk.
Mrs. Gordon: We won't be out of here before 2 A.M., just on this item.
If this meeting is not adjourned, but is simply deferred, then we do not have to -
Mayor Ferre: We are just going to take the rest of the items up at 2 on Monday
because there is no way we can do this tonite.
Mr. Grassie: May I suggest Mr. Mayor, that there are 4 public hearing actions
that were advertised -
Mayor Ferre: We are just going to extend all of them until Monday at 2 O'clock.
Mr. Grassie: Items 9 through 12 have been advertised.
Mayor Ferre: We can pass those in 5 minutes. Other than that, we will defer
everything else. Is that clear? What about Miamarina?
Mrs. Gordon: I think we can deal with that because its the same issue. We can
finish the waterfront, get it over with and put it to bed, literally.
16
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Mayor Ferre: All right, who is the next speaker. Mr. Walker, is there anyone
in your group that wants to make a presentation?
All speakers please keep their statements to 3 minutes.
Mr. Elias: My name is Bert Elias. As a businessman, I totally endorse private
enterprise. I am very familiar with the commitment that the Mayor has taken
for free enterprise. I cannot understand how a simple legal bidding process for
a competent management team could become such a confused and emotional issue.
It is true that the Herald has not helped the situation. The editorial staff apparently
has not read the management contract because they continue to refer to it as a lease.
A management contract is not a lease. Any businessman knows the difference.
The Herald admits that the city should hire management expertise and I agree.
This was the original intent of the bidding process. The history of the operation
of the Marina by the City is not known as accurate management and it would be foolish
to believe they could suddenly become experts overnight and turn the marina into a
profitable business. It must be very clear to anyone with common sense, that a
management contract is not a giveaway, it is purely an agreement to manage by competent
business people. This elected body should not be confused. The support of this
management agreement and the support of free enterprise is what the majority of the
electorate wants. Thank you Mr. Mayor.
Mr. Lowell: My name is Jack Lowell, I live in the Coconut Grove area at 3600 Stewart
Avenue and I am president of the Coconut Grove Chamber of Commerce.
I represent 167 firms and individuals doing business in Coconut Grove including
the major financial institutions, Mercy Hospital, Coconut Grove Playhouse.
All of the major businesses in this area.
I am here to tell you that the Coconut Grove Chamber of Commerce Board has unanimously
voted in favor of having the expansion of Dinner Key by private enterprise and not
through public trust or by the city itself. I have been here before to tell you that
and through several public hearings to tell you that that is the position of the
merchants and individuals doing business in Coconut Grove.
Mrs. Gordon: Could I ask Mr. Lowell a question Mr. Mayor?
Mr. Lowell, did you poll your membership and take a vote from each one to find out
if they agree with what you said tonight?
Mr. Lowell: We had several public meetings where we had the item discussed by the
general membership and there was very limited opposition at those meetings. The
Board was unanimous in favor of what I just -
Mrs. Gordon: The Board was unanimous but the membership which you say was 170
some odd firms, you are not sure that the majority of those people are in favor
of it, you are just speaking for your Board.
Mr. Lowell: That is correct. We have 15 Board members.
Mayor Ferre: Did you answer the question?
Mr. Lowell: We have 167 firms and individuals and 15 Board Members.
Mayor Ferre: Who selects the board members?
Mr. Lowell: They are elected by the general membership who represent their interests.
Mayor Ferre: So in other words they are, it is a democratic process where they do
represent the group.
Mrs. Gordon: Its true that they represent the group by election but that doesn't
necessitate the fact that they may not be in agreement on this particular issue
with a majority of 15 people, it would seem to me that if you are going to state
that you are representing 167 firms who are in favor of this, then you should be
sure that they really are.
Mr. Lowell: Respectfully, Commissioner Gordon, in any elective process where the
Board of Directors is elected -
Mrs. Gordon: I know that. I sit on Boards but I was a member of the Coconut Grove
Chamber for a long time and if you had made that statement and included me in that
number and I was not in favor of it, I would have resented that fact.
M. Lowell: I am here to represent the Board properly.
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Mayor Ferre: Yes, but lets face it. You serve on the Board of Realtors and whenever
you have a matter that comes up before the Board of Realtors, you don't go out and
poll 3000 people, that is what the Board is far.
Mrs. Gordon: No, then Maurice I wouldn't say that 3000 people are in favor of it.
I would say the Board of Directors of my organization are in favor of it.
Mr. Lowell: That is what I said.
Mayor Ferre: Who is the next speaker?
Mr. Plummer: Mr. Mayor, may I inquire of Mr. Lowell, a very quick question?
Has your Board had the opportunity to see the latest in-house proposal?
Mr. Lowell: No Sir, we had a presentation, both from Tom Dixon and Bob Traugott
but we have not seen the latest figures.
Mr. Roth: My name is Fred Roth, I am chairman of the Marina Operations Review
Committee which was appointed by the City Manager at the request of the City Commission.
The purpose of this committee is to provide input to the city manager and to the
city commission on day to day operations of the Marinas and improvements to be constructed
upon the Marinas.
Mr. Plummer: Mr. Roth, so we don't cause any problems for the record. This is what
you presented and it is what you presented to us in the past.
Mr. Roth: These are the committee's recommendations and I will apologize to the city
manager and his staff, that normally we would submit this to the City Manager as we
did in the past but time just did not permit it this time. Its a whole new set of facts
Mr. Plummerut let me publically thank the city manager's office, the city finance office,
the city clerk's office, everybody has been most helpful to this committee.
4;e meet every other Tuesday night 21 hrs and put in hundreds of hours as a public
Fervice.
At we going to take up Miamarina contracts separately? The committee has recommendations
or. that one alsc.
Mrs. Gordon: That is separate.
Mr. Roth: These recommendations of the committee were prepared day before yesterday
and we had no knowledge of what the city manager was going to recommend tonight.
From the minutes of the committee, we now wholeheartedly agree with the recommendations
of the city manager and we have been saying this all along, that the city should keep
the marinas but my comments here are based on the committees review of the contract
and do not address themselves to the new recommendations of the city manager.
Marina Review Committee recommendations dated 2-22-79:
(a) Contract with Biscayne Recreation not be accepted for the following reasons:
(1) Term of 10 years with a 5 year option is not in accordance with the
short term 4 year management agreement as agreed to by Biscayne Recreation
with the City Commission in a public hearing in July 1978.
(b) The principles of Biscayne have not had experience in managing a Marina
or in the construction of marina facilities.
(c) The proposed contract gives Biscayne 5% of the existing as well as
from which to conduct a yacht brokerage business.
Our subcommittee which investigated the potential income from this provision, by
contacting 4 leading yacht brokers in the area concluded thus: Gross sales of 3 to 10
million dollars annually could be expected. The customary yacht brokerage fee is 10%
and therefore Biscayne should earn $300,000 to $1,000,000 annually over the life of the
contract, 3 million to 10 million.
The proposed contract contains incentive to Biscayne to increase dockage rates since
their fee will be increased accordingly. The committee fears that dinner key will
become another Bahia Mar where only luxury yachts can afford the rates. As a result,
Bahia Mar is full in season but has only 20% of slips leased in the off-season and
thereby does not serve the public interest. Further, the sub -committee reports that
the City of Ft. Lauderdale is extremely unhappy with the private operation of a once
public marina. The report of the subcommittee is in our files and is available to
you for inspection.
Mayor Ferre: Fred, you have now taken 6 minutes, you were going to take 3 minutes
and you are not even half through this thing. Why don't you give us a few minutes
to read this thing and submit it into the record. Is that all right with you?
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Mr. Roth: The Citizens Advisory Board has served many hundreds of hours to do this
and these are facts that I think ought to be brought out.
The proposed contract with Biscayne gives them the right to replace sailboat rental
operators, commercial fishermen and operate bait and tackle property formerly known
as Seminole. The committee's analysis of projected revenues of these profit centers
will probably yield an annual gross of an additional 1 million dollars with a net
profit before taxes of $250,000 annually or another 24 million dollars to Biscayne
over the 10 year contract. Except for 1C per gallon on the gasoline sales and I might
point out that the prior leasee paid you 14C, the city would derive no share of
Biscayne's revenue except for the small 1/35th of the depreciation cost of the building.
I read paragraph f on page 6 of the management contract and I don't come to the same
conclusion that Mr. Walker showed. I will leave that to the Attorney.
We believe the public will not be served by displacing present sailboat rental companies
or commercial fishermen. We do however recommend that the city promptly request bids
for a new operator of the former Seminole Shop to serve the boating public adequately.
The committee has reviewed the study of waterfront recreational opportunities, part
1 & 2 prepared by Greenleaf-Telesca and reviewed costs being incurred by other
municipalities to construct marinas. We recommend to the Commission that serious
thought be given to not spending 41 million dollars for 200 slips at Dinner Key when
the same 41 million dollars would probably build 300 to 500 slips on Virginia Key
with a lot less problems with permits and not harming the ecology surrounding Dinner Key.
At the last public hearing last month, we heard from experts that it is not feasible
to add 2 more piers to Dinner Key. It seems the better use of 41 million dollars would
bt_ to build a new first class marina at Virginia Key.
Dinner Yev Marina revenues from dock rates are now tied to the city ordinance by budget.
They are producing a net cash flow, I will not get into the argument of figures, our
figures come from the same office but do not say the same things. It produces an excess
cash flow of $200,000 annually over and above expenses plus a contribution to run the
Director of Fublic Facilities office, Mr. Bob Jennings out at the Orange Bowl.
These profits recently paid for new pilings, $100,000 and will pay $125,000 to $150,000
fcr improvements to the Dockmasters office recently approved by the City Commission and
r�k ben rrepared for bidding. This facility will replace showers and restrooms now
use in the city hall and will include laundry, ice machines and new dockmasters
n".ice. Ot.- r_`': is, that we believe that major repairs and improvements at Dinner Key
can be paid fcr out of the annual operating profit without incurring bond interest
expense. We believe that the annual operating profit can continue to improve, if a study
of administration policy and personnel were to be conducted in continued review like a
citizens advisory board which herewith offers its continued help and advice.
In conclusion, we strongly recommend that you reject the proposed contract which we feel
will shortly deny the public its rightful use, to wit: Bahia Mar in Ft. Lauderdale
as a prime example, you can't get to it. The City of Miami can and must preserve this
jewel for all the people. The proposed contract will benefit Biscayne Recreation and
its principals by millions of dollars with little or no return to the City of Miami
treasury. Thank you.
Mr. Griscomb: Good Evening. My name is Sherwood Griscomb. I don't own a boat. The
question, I am not emotionally involved in, and it isn't whether you are going to
approve 2 contracts for the Dinner Key Marina and Miamarina and its not a question of
whether you are going to do it tonight or tomorrow or in the future. The only question
is that the Commission s going to follow the law which I gave you there, Section 73
and 74 of the city charter. The only thing I want to talk on is the Supreme Court
decisions which have not been reversed that uphold those sections and they say, no
right, no title, no interest, in the City of Miami pertaining to the waterfront, the
wharf property, public landings, docks, streets, avenues, parks and other public
places shall be sold except by authority of the City Commission and other such
restrictions as may be imposed by law. 74 says, no ordinance granting, renewing or
leasing the right to use the streets, alleys, public grounds, buildings of the City of
Miami to any persons or firms or corporations shall become a law or effective in
any way until the same has been approved by a majority of the qualified voters voting
at an election held and the question of those leases, grants or contracts being granted,
shall not be submitted to such a vote except upon deposit with the City Clerk, the
expense of such election by the applicant for such grant, renewal or grant.
I am not an attorney, I am a policeman. The expense of such election by the applicant
for such grant, renewal or lease, now that is the law of our City Charter, Section
73 and 74. There is no deposit with the City Clerk. Those laws under our City Charter
prohibit you from signing these leases, grants or contracts and the law commands you
to treat the waterfront with due respect because God isn't making anymore.
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Those two laws vest the final authority with the people. That City Charter is
supplemented by a Florida State Statute that you have a copy of, 57-1584 titled,
and it was written by the florida State Legislators specifically for the City of
Miami and its title is: Miami's Port Financing Act. Its most compelling under
section #8 of that 12 page state statute and it says: No contract for the borrowing
of monies shall be entered by the City of Miami under which advolorum taxes may be
required unless such contract has been approved by a majority of the voters.
You cannot offer to float 41 million dollars worth of revenue bonds as the Dinner Key
contract -
Mayor Ferre: I am afraid I am going to have to start invoking the 5-minute-rule
around here, otherwise we will be here until 3 o'clock so you have another minute
to finish your statement.
Mr. Griscomb: Sir, under the city charter Section 2.9, I am limited to 10 minutes
and that is respectfully -
Mayor Ferre: I am the Mayor of this town at least until November and you got one
minute left.
Mr. Griscomb: Sir, I had complied with leaving a copy with the City Clerk of my
list of objections as required by the City Charter. All I am trying to do is follow
what the City Charter requires that I do. If you don't mind, I would like to finish.
On the bottom of the copy you have from the City Charter, it quotes Coast City Coaches
Supreme case law, and it refers to a bus company being licensed by the railroad
commission, PSC and Miami City Commission by resolution granted them the right to pick
up and the Supreme Court went right back to 73 and 74 and said this commitment does
not have the authority or the power, its got to be voted on by the people.
Mayor Ferre: All right, your time is now up, next speaker.
Mr. Iaconis: This afternoon we had a very interesting discussion.
Mr. Knox: (indicating by hand the charter says 10 minutes)
Mayor Ferre: Mr. Griscomb, you have 10 more minutes.
Mr. Griscomb: The supreme court in its decision on Coast City Coaches again told
the Miami City Commission to obey the law in section 73 and 74. That the Commission
cannot grant rights to use the streets, alleys, waterfront or public grounds or
buildings by resolution or ordinance. The Court said the authority is with the people
and that question by the Commission can only be put in the ballot box.
The law says that you cannot sign these contracts. Again the supreme court defended
Section 73 and 74 in Coach Lines vs Miami and again told the Miami Commissioners to
obey the provisions and the procedures of 73 and 74 that says rights or grants can only
be lawfully authorized y the voters and not by resolution as that Commission did.
The Supreme Court said our organic law prohibits the expenditure of public money for
a private end purpose. It does not matter whether the money is derived by advalorum
taxes, gift or otherwise, it is public money and under our organic law, public money
cannot be appropriated for a private purpose or used for acquiring property for
the benefit of a private concern.
It does not matter what such undertakings are called or how worthwhile they may appear
to be at the passing moment, the financing of private enterprise by means of public
funds is entirely foreign to a proper concept under our constitutional system. Such
enroachments will inevitably lead to the destruction of the private enterprise system.
In another supreme court case, the supreme court ruled that the City of Clearwater
thought that they had the authority and the power by resolution to lease public lands
that served a public purpose. Such the change in policy may well threaten the entire
free enterprise system. Why not extend these leases to all municipalities, all
counties and even to collective farms under the system of communism, supreme court quote.
Some leases that this Commission granted in the past violate the written letter of
the city charter and of all the applicable supreme court decisions upholding our city
charter. In closing, just remember, you cannot approve either contract for the same
reason I can't. We lack the authority and power because the people have it. Thank you.
Mayor Ferre: And the City Attorney, I am sure will look into all the law you have
stated here today. Okay Mr. Iaconis.
Mr. Iaconis: This afternoon we had a discussion that the result of which was the
formulation, resolution, the creation of the Miami Waterfront Board. I respectfully
suggest that we utilize that position that has already been taken and is now on
public record to go forward with the use of that Board as the instrument to discuss
this matter further. I would like to reserve the right to discuss this with the
Commission later. Thank you.
Mr. Weir: My name is David Weir, 2911 Natoma Street. I want to ask you to check that
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gentlemen's recommendation and ask the City Council that if there is no merit to
what he is saying, then we proceed as we wish. If there is merit to what he says,
there is no sense of going any further for anybody here tonight. Thank you.
Mayor Ferre: I will -
Mr. Weir: Would you ask the city attorney what his thoughts are on the matter, as to
whether you have the authority to proceed or not to proceed?
Mr. Knox: First, I would like to read and interpret Section 2-9 of the Code of the
City of Miami with respect to the time that citizens are alotted-
Mayor Ferre: Its 10 minutes and I accept it and -
Mr. Knox: Well, its not 10 minutes, that is the outside limit by the language of it
such that a person may not exceed 10 minutes without the permission of the chairperson.
Mayor Ferre: In other words, what that means is that the chair has a right to limit
people to any amount of time in a public discussion unless he is overridden by a
majority of the members of the commission.
Mr. Knox: The chairperson has the right to limit discussion.
Mr. Weir: M; qu•s_' Mas,'t answered. I want to know if the quotation that this
gentleman made about the supreme court and the authority -
Mr. Knox: WE w re given by the gentleman several extracts or pages from cases and
provisions of the Charter. Section 73 of the Charter refers to franchises and utilities.
Neither is thoc.e situations is applicable here and the cases which were cited, were cases
which interpreted Section 73 of the Charter dealing with franchisesand they are not
applicable in this case.
Mayor Ferre: Are you telling this Commission that the policeman's legal interpretation,
he is not a ia,'er, and therefore, what he said is not in fact the law?
Mr. Knox: It is t e lau, but it does not apply in this situation.
Mayor Ferre: Lets move along, who is the next speaker?
Mrs. Gordon: Mr. Mayor, I would suggest that we took an action today in setting up
the Board and since Mr. Fosmoen's recommendation regarding the Dinner Key Marina that
we proceed to develop it in house and the capabilities of the public works department
is sufficient to be able to do the construction, there are financing reasons why we
can't even discuss leasing that particular property, why are we continuing this
discussion? I think its time for us to take an action on this and deny the lease -
Mayor Ferre: Rose, I will recognize you for that motion. You are entitled to your
opinion and that represents 20% of this Commission. Lets see if you can get 60%.
There is a motion on the floor.
Mrs. Gordon: The item on the agenda reads the opposite. It reads, authorizing the
city manager to enter into an agreement and I am saying that we do not authorize the
city manager, therefore, we deny the item that is on the agenda for entering into a
lease.
Mayor Ferre: There is a motion on the floor that would deny Item 82 that is, that
it would deny the manager from entering into an agreement with Biscayne Recreation
as submitted to us at the January meeting. Is there a second?
This is a reversal. This would tell the Manager, NO to this lease.
Is there a second for the second time? Is there a second to that motion for the third
time? Hearing none, the motion died for lack of a second. Well now, I guess its time
for the Commission to start expressing itself.
Anything else anybody wants to say?
Mr. Holder: My name is Dan Holder, I live at 2332 S. W. 25th Terrace. One of the words
that has been thrown around a great deal here tonight is the term profit and for some
reason, we seem to feel that in the area of recreation where it concerns boating, there
has to be a profit made in the facilities. We weren't thinking of a profit from the
people who used approximately 8 million dollars worth of beaches on Miami Beach.
We hadn't thought of profit in the recreation programs that the City of Miami puts on
throughout the City. Now, we are talking about not only providing profit to the City
of Miami, but providing additional profit for private enterprise. I think that in
doing so, in discussing that, we have left out another area of profit and that is the
area that boating the revenue that boating provides to the community outside of simply
the cost of renting dock space, there are many facilities within the city that depend
on Dade County's boats.
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Mr. Holder: (Cont'd) - for their profit. I think it is time really that we
start providing more adequate recreational facilities for boaters in South Florida
and I don't think you can do that through private enterprise.
Ms. Morse: My name is Carol Morse, I live at 4245Barganza Avenue. My question
to you is on your in-house proposal, on your commission that you are setting up
to supposedly govern waterfront.
Mayor Ferre: Nothing is going to govern it. The governing body is right here and
you are looking at it.
Ms. Morse: Right, okay now what is your proposal, you introduced it in 7 points.
Now what are you going to do with that? Are you just going to sit on that or are
you going to act on that?
Mrs. Gordon: Are you asking me what I am going to do?
Mayor Ferre: She made a motion and she didn't get a second. That tells you where
this Commission is at.
Mrs. Gordon: What happened today, I guess you weren't here this morning. This
Commission set up an advisory board without any real teeth.
Ns. Morse: Hoy, cnr: this advisory board whether it has teeth or not, function at
ali on this issue tonight if you are going to advise on something, you are just
neglecting, the whole thing, --
Mayor Ferre: You are the first intelligent person, if you will forgive me, for
all of those that have been speaking before that have made a statement on this
slue twat rakes any sense.
Ms. Meese: If you set up an advisory board to advise that is going to take into
considerati_t. of all the public land, how can you decide on this thing tonight?
There is r- way. If you give this to them, you are just ignoring that whole
advisory board.
Mrs. Cordon: We don't want to -
Ms. Morse: I know you personally don't.
Mrs. Gordon: The Mayor misunderstood you.
Mayor Ferre: No, I understood and I agree with her.
Ms. Morse: The issue is that you should postpone everything until your advisory
board can get together and decide what should be done, then issue leases if you
want to do it. I have nothing against private leases personally as long as its
a good lease and the city can make some money off the lease and not to private
enterprise.
Now, how can you give out a lease tonight?
Mrs. Gordon: We didn't give out a lease tonight.
Ms. Morse: Well, what are they up here for?
Mrs. Gordon: Because the agenda item is calling for that and I am not about ready
to do that. I am telling people that I am not ready to do that, I will not do that.
Ms. Morse: Okay, well I am just bringing this up. If you set up an advisory board,
there is no way you can really sanely issue something to these people tonight.
Mrs. Gordon: We are not. I'm not, I don't know what they are going to, I am
only 20% remember.
Mayor Ferre: I think we can move quickly and I think what you said makes some
sense. If you let me, I don't know who else wants to talk. I want to let everybody
have the opportunity to talk and then I want to say something when you are finished.
Ms. Morse: Okay, all I really wanted to say is that if you set up this advisory
board, you should consider everything and then go issue leases instead of in
effect, the way it is tonight, id you decided you would issue this lease before
you had any advisement on it.
Mayor Ferre: Anybody else want to speak?
Mr. Carner: My name is Stephen Carner, 3399 Poinciana Avenue, Coconut Grove.
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Mr. Corner: (Cont'd) I just want to point out to the Commission and that
there is a viable alternative to giving private management of the Marina.
I think you have some very qualified management talent and it is proposed to the
city, the creation of a nonprofit corporation to hire the talent, operate the
marinas, and any money collected, any monies, would go into the marina or into the
city coffers and on that Board sits a man proposed vho has a background in bonding,
that is Gus Harrison of the Coconut Grove Bank, and a man who has a background in
banking, who is in charge of American Hospital and management background and we have
talent standing by, we have cherry picked and most of the organizations that made
applications have been rejected. We have talent standing by more than qualified
to run this. One other thing, California has been quoted as an example, I think
you might keep in mind that it was California that brought us Proposition 13.
Mayor Ferre; Anybody else who wants to speak? Its only 1:20, ve have plenty of time.
Mr. Syms: My name is Chris Syms. I lived in the Marina Del Rey area in 1972 and
as far as a public place, you cannot go into Marina Del Rey because of the crime
rate in the area and I would like to know how these men, if they are saying they
are making it for all of Miami, not just the few people that live there, how are
they doing this? How is this becoming for all of Miami by them taking over as a
private industry? In Marina Del Rey, you cannot go in there unless you own a boat
and its not for the public.
Mayor Ferre: Anybody else?
Mr. Serrader: My name is Charles Serrader, I am a landowner in the City of Miami
and I would like to say that I did look over some of that case law that was given
and I am sure that Counsel I interpreted it differently from Counsel. I am not
a lawyer but I do read it as the Supreme Court says, the City Council has no law,
has no authority in granting waterfront property. It is a completely separate
entity compared to any other City of Miami property. I just wanted to bring that out.
Mr. Sakolsky: Its about time that we all faced up to the fact that we have a hot
potatoe here and a very tough issue. Most of us as property owners in the City of
Miami, I own the Coconut Grove Hotel and most of us who own anything in the City
realize that in the last 10 or 12 years this City has gotten bigger and the parks
areas and marinas have not gotten bigger but have gotten 10% smaller, by way of
public leases. By way of making way for highways and roadways, they have taken
away green areas of the city. I think that we have a responsibility not only to
the citizens of the city but to the future citizens of the city and the trust that
the voters have put into this Commission to try to run these properties properly.
I think the Commission has an edge over private enterprise. Private enterprise
cannot offer anyone a public service job, private enterprise cannot go out and bid
as well as you can to advertise for the proper type of people to run these operations.
There has been a lot of stones thrown on the water in this issue, I don't want
to open up Pandoras Box but I will tell you now that I would seriously hope
and seriously pray that this Commission will start from scratch because you have
appointed a public body to oversee your marinas and start from scratch and the
actions that were taken this afternoon, allow them to mature and lets go from there.
Thank you.
Mr. Jaffer: My name is Joel Jaffer, I live at 3268 Mary Street. I hope the
City Commission remembers all this trouble because they are going to have it on
every single thing , the new convention center, the rapid transit center, all
these areas of business which government or this government is forging ahead and
without and just with a lot of conflict and I hope you will take this into
consideration, its a lot of trouble for yourselves.
Ms. Reed. My name is Marilyn Reed. There is one area here that has not been
mentioned and that is competition. There are applications for enlargement of
other marinas. We have many many applications in the courts for enlargement
of marinas and the total is growing fast. A report submitted to Dade County
considered 20,000, they are not going to do that high but on your competing
public marinas, regardless of who operates them, you have to consider the
competition factor. I think you need to do a little bit more investigating of
the total overall picture of what's happening here in the area.
Mayor Ferre: Mr. Iaconis, I recognized you once, I hope this is the wind-up.
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Mr. Iaconis: Yes Sir, we had a lot of discussion this afternoon and this evening.
There is one area that perhaps should be further discussed tonight and that is the
further discussion of Mr. Walkers comments and some of his figures and if someone
will assist me, I would like to use Mr. Walkers charts.
I would like to show you his charts and discuss those particular areas with you
Mayor Ferre: I think Mr. Iaconis, what we ought to really do to save a little bit
of time, I would like to make a statement and if you are not satisfied after seeing
what the Commission does, I will recognize you again, okay? I think we might be
able to save ourselves a half hour.
Does anybody else want to talk? Murray, you and Ike are left for the 9th inning.
Statement by Mayor Ferre is continued on the next page.
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Mayor Pierre: Let me express myself this evening on this.
I have kept this in front of me all day today as a reminder of what I
wanted to say tonight.
This morning, I went over to the little food concession that we have here in the
corner to get some food. Three of the machines are broken. The place is
absolutely filthy. Its unbelievable.
The reason, in my opinion, is because that is not run by either A.B.0 or A.B.Dick,
or whatever thename of that firm is, or Wometco or anybody else. It's run right
here by the employees themselves.
Now, is that right? It's run by the employees themselves so it is a volunteer
operation. Now, I guarantee you that if that operation over there were run by A.B.0
"r Wometco or whoever, I guarantee you that those machines would work, that the place
uld be clean and that it would be absolutely stocked with the food and the materials
tnat vending operations are supposed to sell.
Now. I find it, and I thank whoever went out to get all these, I am sure it was you
Mr. Walker or Mr. Dubbin or one of your group, to get all these letters from Calif-
ornia, New York, you really didn't have to go that far
Right here in Miami, Metropolitan Dade County has put out for bid, would you believe
Pelican Harbc-: Marina?
Now you have seen an awful lot of stuff in the Miami Herald about the Big Bad City of
Miami and you see Mr. Traurig, wherever you are, I didn't want you to invade my domain
because I am the guy that knocks the Miami herald around here and I do it for their
typical inconsistency. Have you read word one in the Miami Herald about Pelican Harbor
Marinas f.5 million dollar improvement, which was put out for bid, and which is going
tc be, as the proposal says, that they want 30 years?
Metro is going to tie up public property on the water for 30 years at 90. or $150,000
tr,ir.itrum pavrr_rt:' Not one word? Not one editorial? Nothing?
:.cw, let's tal:. a little bit about this concept of whether or not, the public is
protected, wiither or not the private sector can or cannot do something better.
how. it is my opinion that if we had not gone to the private sector and signed a
contract with Worsham Brothers and they with Hyatt International, we would not have a
James L. Knight Convention -Conference, University -City of Miami, University of Miami
Conference Center. It would not exist. There is no way it would be done.
The private sector will not do it. And the Public sector cannot do it.
We have example after example. For an example, the airport, the parking lease and
some of the leases like Dobbs and others, the parking lease that APCOA has, was
extended at the airport by Metropolitan Dade County without taking it out to bid and
the attorney as I recall, I think was Dan Paul.
I don't rewember seeing a major story in the Miami Herald and a major editorial about
Bad Metro extending the APCOA lease without a bid. Not one mention of that.
Now, we take the case of all these leases that the City of Miami has.
Yes, I think some of them have been mishandled. I think we have to be honest and admit
it. Leases are nothing new in this community. I might remind you of Lighthouse Point
or whatever it was called, years ago, that Metropolitan Dade County leased out.
I might remind you, not of the leases at the airport, I might remind you of the
Rusty Pelican. Not only Miamarina, but just a whole series of operations that are
operated by the private sector in public property from airports to marinas, to golf
courses to restaurants, to you name it.
Why does that happen? In Washington, New York, Pelican Harbor, In California. There
is nothing revolutionary or new.
The reason why the private sector does not develop marinas in Miami is because the
majority of the land belongs to the public sector. Where might, would you please tell
me from here to the Broward County line can you name me any major stretches of land
that can be developed as Marinas? All of the marina with a few exceptions, from here
north to the Broward County line is all mainly public. Now, once in awhile, we have
to go out, like we did in the case of Tibor Hollo, I might remind you, and to into the
public domain again. Tibor Hollo's marina is not on private land. He had to go out on
the bay. That is public land. The moment you go out on the bay, you are on public land.
It belongs to the public.
Now, I think the proof of the pie is basically in the eating. Have we had good marina
development in this community? Do we have good marinas here? Good God, you cannot say
that the marina out here is good. That is a disaster and a disgrace to this community.
It was good 30 years ago, but this City has been completely derelict in letting it go
down, rundown, dirty and I want to ask you, honestly, do you really think that by
charging as we did, 284,000 thousand dollars, Ike Iaconis, wherever you are, do you
really think that anybody is going to believe that facility of 300 and some odd slips
charging $285,000 a year, could possibly have sufficient money to do anything out
there and that is one of the reasons that everytime we have come up here to try to
get fees increased and all that because you were paying 5c a foot, whenMerrill-Stevens
205
FEB 2.
R �
or whatever their name is os here is charging 21c a foot an, .we are still leas
than half of that. We are not going into that tonight, That is not the purpose
of the discussion tonight.
In 1976 - $286,000
In 1977- $349,000
In 1978 - $459,000 after we had increased the rates.
Next year it will be over half a million dollars. Of course, we don't have any funds
to improve that. We are not keeping a depreciation fund. I know, this is the public
sector, not the private sector.
Now, let me, once again reiterate that I think that there is no apology on my part
and I don't think on the City Commission's part for believing that the private sector
can really do some things better than the private sector,
In those things where there is a service rendered, and where there is a fee charged
and when you are getting something out of it. The public is really much better off
when there is a profit motivation. There is nothing wrong with a profit motivation
if the profit motivation is properly designed with proper safeguards so that a
proper service is rendered for a proper price.
Now, the control, as to what the rates are that are charged are to be controlled by
the City Commission. We keep hearing about leases. This is a lease. This is not
a lease. This is a management agreement and that means that a corporation is hired
to manage, to manage, an operation. That's all. Nothing more, nothing less.
We have hired, for example, the Off -Street Parking Authority to run the Olympia
Theatre for us. The olympia Theatre was given to us by Mr. Gunman. It's now called
Gusman Hall or Gusman Center. Mitchell Wolfson told me, if the City of Miami gets its
hands on it, you are going to ruin it. I said Why? He said because you know that a
governmental a;:cm.:. like yours can't run these things properly.
I said, why ;Mitchell? He said, what you are going to do is you are going to give
everything away. You are going to let everybody in for free. They will start
screaming at you everytime you don't give it to the Boyscouts, Girlscouts, Catholic
Society and other society and this society, and you know that you are not going to
keep it corpetitive and you know you are not going to keep in in the same way and
that is a quad -public body. They are run as if they were a private business and even
though I disagree with all that from another point of view, there is no question
that when vr,,, get into government, the end result is, walk out there and look at it.
That is the er.c result.
Now, itE easy t: say. Get good managers, get intelligent managers. Get people who
know what they arP doing but you go around the country, anywhere, and you see what
happens to pul:c;Mollifies that are managed and run by the public sector. It just
doesn't function in the same way.
I am not going to belabor the point and I leave you with this.
I think that ;;e established a Board this morning and even though I have expressed my
opinion here today, I think it would be absurd for us, after having created a Board
here this morning, to disregard this Board 100%, and this evening vote on something
after we have created this Board.
Now, I haven't changed my opinion as to what I think is the best thing to do on this.
I am just saying that the process that I think we should follow on this is that we
should let this Board be created and function and then we can deliberate on this
matter again in the future, however, I don't think that we can afford to stop the
needed repairs and improvements out here.
So I would propose the following:
I would propose and I would be happy to make this in a form of a motion, Mr. Plummer,
if you will recognize me?
I propose #l1 - That the matter pending before us be referred to the newly created
Miami Waterfront Board for their deliberation and recommendation.
#12, at the same time and in conjunction with the recommendation of the
board, that the City of Miami immediately seek consulting services to prepare
preliminary design plans and obtain permits for the expansion and renovation of
Dinner Key#3 That we adopt at the earliest possible date, the Marina Plan as City
Policy for marine expansion.
#4 That we undertake expansion of Dinner Key including the annex using
city issued revenue bonds.
#5 That we establish a waterfront improvement fund to be capitalized from
each Marina.
- #6 That we approve the management - No. I think that covers it doesn't it?
Mrs. Gordon: Would you also include the Department?
Mayor Ferre: No, I don't think we should get into creating a new department.
All I have said is one, that we get consultants -
two, that we adopt the Marina plan as early as possible
three, that we undertake the expansion of Dinner Key because
this is an official commitment on our part to do so including the annex using
city issued revenue bonds and
four that we establish a waterfont improvement fund to be
capitalized from each marina.
Now does that cover it Mr. Fosmoen?
Mrs. Gordon: Mr. Mayor, if you would consider- Mr. Plummer, if you would let
me ask him to include something else, I might second it, if you will wait a minute.
Mr. Plummer: The motion dies for the lack of a second.
r. LaCasa: I didn't have an opportunity to -
Mr. Plummer: I gave you 3 opportunities.
Mr. La Casa: She was speaking J.L.
Mrs. Gordon: Mr. Mayor, would you consider including a provision that in the next
general election, which comes up in May that this item be put on the ballot for the
people to decide ?
Mr. Plummer: Wait a minute Rose. Rose I am running the meeting. I will ask once
again as a matter of courtesy, is there a second?
Mr. LaCasa: Second.
Mr. Plummer: Good, because if you didn't, I was going to give the gavel and second.
Now Rose, you discuss all you want.
Mrs. Gordon: Mr. Mayor, would you now consider an addition to your motion which
would then place this matter before the people on the May 8th election, the matter
being whether or not the people of the City of Miami want their public lands leased
to private development or private management?
You have never been afraid of putting things before the people. You have always
told me that you will abide by the will of the people.
Mayor Ferre: No that's Plummer. You have me confused with Plummer.
Mr. Plummer: Now, I object.
Mayor Ferre: No, Plummer is the guy that is always saying that. He is always
willing to let the people vote.
Let me put it to you this way. You and I, and Theodore Gibson and J. L. Plummer
over here are 4 people. I have been here 6 years and have voted for on different
occasions, Restaurant Associates, Monty Trainor, Underwood Marina.
Mrs. Gordon: Maurice, no matter what, if you find you are in quicksand, and you
are starting to drown, you better get out of it as fast as you can and we are
in quicksand now in giving away our public property.
Mayor Ferre: I don't believe that. I think the only quicksand we are in as what
has been created by the Miami Herald in this whole hulabaloo, and of course by the
people here who are here until 2 o'clock in the morning because they are just good
citizens that are interested in the subject. I mean they have no personal involve-
ment or concern. There are about 10 or 15 people who I am sure are here who don't
have boats, don't rent and who don't care but you know that 90% of the people who
are here are interested personally in this and my position is simply this.
Look, every 2 years, you have got an opportunity to vote any way you vote on the
people you elect. I want to tell you that I am running probably, for Mayor this
coming November. If you don't like the way I do things, if you don't like what t
do, I want you please to vote against me, you go out and work hard for whatever
candidate you want to defeat me. You have that opportunity every two years and
go do it. I told you this 3 years ago and I ran last year. I run every 2 years.
She is asking if I will accept a substitute and I am explaining why.
Mrs. Gordon: I didn't say substitute, I said an addition.
Mayor Ferre: You can make that motion on youilair but not as part of my motion.
FEB 2 2
Mr. Plummer: Any further discussion? Call the roll.
Thereopon the following motion was introduced by Mayor Ferre who moved its adoption:
MOTION 79-105
1. A MOTION TO REFER THE MATTER OF THE PROPOSED AGREEMENT WITH BISCAYNE
RECREATION, INC., FOR OPERATION AND DEVELOPMENT OF DINNER KEY MARINA
TO THE MARINA WATERFRONT BOARD FOR THEIR DELIBERATION AND RECOMMENDATION
TO THE CITY COMMISSION;
2. THAT IN CONJUNCTION WITH THE RECOMMENDATION OF THE MARINA WATERFRONT
BOARD, THAT THE CITY IMMEDIATELY SEEK CONSULTING SERVICES TO PREPARE
PRIMARY DESIGN PLANS AND OBTAIN PERMITS FOR THE EXPANSION AND RENOVATION
OF DINNER KEY;
3. THAT THE CITY COMMISSION ADOPT A POLICY AT THE EARLIEST POSSIBLE DATE
FOR MARINA EXPANSION;
4. THAT THE CITY OF MIAMI UNDERTAKE EXPANSION OF DINNER KEY MARINA
INCLUDING THE ANNEX USING CITY ISSUED REVENUE BONDS;
5. THAT THE CITY OF MIAMI ESTABLISH A WATERFRONT IMPROVEMENT FUND TO BE
CAF I?ALI. i;D FROM EACH MARINA
Upon beinz second by Commissioner La Casa, the motion was passed and adopted
Ly the following vote:
AYES: Mayor Fe -re
Ccmmiseioner Gibson
Commissioner Gordon
Conn1S: "rer Lacasa
Vice Ma •or Plummer
I6E5: None
Mrs. Gordon: Now, Mr. Mayor, I would like to offer a motion.
Mayor Ferre: All right, I recognize you for a motion Rose.
Mrs. Gordon: I would like to move that this Commission ask the Law Department to
prepare the proper ordinance to place this matter of leasing our public waterfront
properties on the ballot for the May Election.
Mayor Ferre: Is there a second? Is there a second?
Mrs. Gordon: Mr. Knox, since there apparently is no second. How many votes of the
general public does it take to get an item on the ballot by signature.
Mr. Knox: This would be an initiative petition and I think the Clerk has the number
readily available. I can look it up in the charter.
Mrs. Gordon: 19,000? And how many days prior to the May election do we have to have
that before this Commission?
Mr. Knox: Let me get the Charter.
Mr. Plummer: Mr. Mayor, may I make an observation? I think if you are really honest
and sincere, that to take an issue such as this. Why create a Waterfront Board if
you are going to deny the right to develop Marina facilities and other related
facilities. It would seem rather obvious to me that Rose what you are proferring and
I think, in my estimation it would be proper that you surrender that to this Board
for consideration,
Mrs. Gordon: To render what?
Mr. Plummer: The proposal of putting it out on a ballot or the eventuality that I
assume you would be asking in the referendum, that no further waterfront properties
be leased.
Mrs. Gordon: Leased to Private Management.
Mr. Plummer: Whatever your question. Why not submit that same question to a Board
who you are asking to develop facilities and marinas because I think you could be
precluding by that referendum any further marinas.
208
FEE
Mrs. Gordon: No, Mr. Plummer, that is twisting the facts.
I want to simply tell you this. The Board that we authorised this morning has about
as much teeth in it as a 6 week old baby.
Mr. Plummer: Rose, its not as much teeth as it is their willingness, I assume to
take that under consideration and make a recommendation. Not that this Commission
must follow it but they surely can consider it and recommend.
Mrs. Gordon: J.L., the track record of this Commission is such that I think the
people who are opposed to the leasing of public lands would be a lot more secure
if they got a referendum going and got that on the ballot in May. I am sincere about
that.
Mayor Ferre: Let me tell you how I feel about this. I just want you know, those of
you that want to get really enthused about this.
Mr. Knox, any referendum that is placed or any ballot that is placed on this matter
"or the voters on May 8th. Would it be applicable to anything that were done before
May 8th?
Mr. Knox: There is a provision in the United States and Florida Constitutions which
relate to what is called the impairment of the obligation of contract.
Such that, if there are contracts in existence at the time of a change in the law if
you will, that law does not affect those existing agreements.
Mayor Ferre: I am going to tell you that I want you to know that I have expressed
my opinion on this. I am ready to vote on this thing tonight. I am ready to vote
on it now. If we wanted to go that route, which I don't want to do it that way,
because I want to let this new Board function, but I am not mincing any words.
I don't have any qualms as to how I feel about this. I have expressed my opinion.
Mrs. Gordon: But Mr. Mayor, aren't you being facetious in even suggesting that the
Board is going to have some influence on you? You have precluded any recommendation
that they make.
Mayor Ferre: No, the Board is going to function and the Board is going to have
input into this whole process.
Mrs. Gordon: I wouldn't want to insult the intelligence of the people who are being
appointed to that Board to let them think that their recommendation is going to
make any difference.
Mayor Ferre: I just don't like being threatened and I think when people start
threatening, I would assume Rose, that your statement and that made by several of
the people here, could be perhaps misinterpreted as a threat. Now isn't that strange?
Mrs. Gordon: I don't think so. I don't feel that anyone has threatened you
individually or anybody collectively. I think the people have a right, if they
feel strongly about an issue, that it become a part of the ballot and that is all
I asked you to do tonight but you didn't want to do that.
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DISCUSSION - REFER CONSIDERATION OF PROPOSED AGREEMENT WITH
31. NEW WORLD MARINAS INC. FOR OPERATION OP HIAMARINA TO THE
MIAMI WATERFRONT BOARD FOR THEIR DELIBERATION AND RECOMMENDATIONS
TO THE CITY COMMISSION
Mayor Ferre: The next item, Mr. Dubbin and Miamarina. I would imagine that whets
sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander and that means that if somebody would
offer the same motion so we don't have to be passing these gavels around.
Mr. Lacasa: I offer the same motion.
Mrs. Gordon: What motion are you offering?
Mayor Ferre: The same motion offered before in regards to-
Mrs. Gordon: It didn't have anything directly to do with this particular applicant,
your motion simply stated you were putting in place certain things with regard to
the city's structure.
Mayor Ferre: I will restate my motion. I move that the item before us 83 be
referred to the newly created Waterfront Board for their deliberations, and
thats it.
Mr. Lacasa: I second the motion.
Mr. Post: My name is Tom Post, I am an attorney and I represent New World Enterprises.
Mr. Mayor and Commissioners, its 2 o'clock in the morning. We have spent 2 years on
this particular marina and the developments that go with it and the proposed contract
that is before you. Its too late this evening to rationally deal with this marina.
I believe that we should be offered an opportunity to present to the Commission
what we have worked on so dilligently for so long and I would simply ask the Commission
to postpone this item until Monday at 2 o'clock and let us at least make a presen-
tation. I think the City Managers recommendation to you was that the City go into
the marina management agreement for Miamarina and that recommendation I will remind
you was made at the same time and consistent with, if I am correct, the resolution
which also appointed the board so some consideration has been given to the two concepts
at the same time and I think it may well serve the city to proceed along with the
management of Miamarina and I would just like an opportunity when all this is clear
in our minds to at least make a presentation to you. It will not harm in any way,
what you are suggesting Mr. Mayor because it, on Monday you can do the same thing.
Mayor Ferre: Tom, how can I possibly agree to do that? We created this afternoon
a Board to do exactly that and I am not going to start now creating a a Board and
then our first act is completely by-passing them on something that hasn't been
concluded. You are not recommending that we conclude something, that would be a
subterfuge, what's the Board for?
Mr. Post: Your Honor, if I could just answer that for one second. Its my
understanding that the Board is to review all the city's properties and all the
city's leases and to work with that directly, that would seem to me to encompass
looking at a myriad of projects that the city has from the lease that Merrill -Stevens
has, the lease with Pelican Harbor, the leases with sailboat rental units, you know
it may go on forever and a day and what we are -
Mayor Ferre: No, no, no, you misunderstand. Those leases that are already done are
done and we can't go in there and change leases that are legal contracts. Yours
isn't done.
Mr. Post: All right, I just would like the opportunity to present it to you on
Monday when everybody has had an opportunity for rest. We have worked at it for
2 years and if you want to send it to committee on Monday, that's fine, we haven't
lost anything your Honor, all I am saying is let you take a look. Your staff has
recommended to you that you proceed.
Mayor Ferre: I won't change my mind.
Mrs. Gordon: Mr. Mayor, we have a very short period of time to stay together on
the conclusion of this agenda and I don't think we will have the time to take up
a matter that is as controversial as this one.
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Mayor Ferre: Well, even that is not the point Rose, as far as I am concerned
how could have done just what we did with Dinner Rey and then turn around and do
something different with Miamarina?
Mrs. Gordon: Can we say goodnight and go home?
Thereupon the following motion was introduced by Mayor Ferre who moved
its adoption:
MOTION 79.106
A MOTION TO REFER THE PROPOSED AGREEMENT WITH NEW WORLD
MARINAS INC., FOR OPERATION OF MIAMARINA TO THE MIAMI
WATERFRONT BOARD FOR THEIR DELIBERATION AND RECOMMENDATIONS
TO THE CITY COMMISSION
Upon being seconded by Mr. Lacasa, the motion was passed and adopted by
the following vote:
AYES:
NOES:
Mayor Ferre
Commissioner Lacasa
Commissioner Gordon
Commissioner Gibson
Vice Mayor Plummer
None
Confirm assessment roll for construction of
32. PUBLIC HEARING: DOUGLAS SANITARY SEWER IMPROVEMENT SR-5304-C
The following resolution was
intztAucE.: 1) 11.Plummer RESOLUTION NO. 79-107
who moved its adoption:
A RESOLUTION CONFIRMING THE ASSESSMENT ROLL FOR CONSTRUCTION
OF DOUGLAS SANITARY SEWER IMPROVEMENT SR-5304-C IN DOUGLAS
SANITARY SEWER IMPROVEMENT DISTRICT SR-5304-C AND REMOVING
ALL PENDING LIENS FOR THIS IMPROVEMENT NOT HEREBY CERTIFIED
(Here follows body of resolution, omitted here
and on file in the Office of the City Clerk )
Upon being seconded by Commissioner Lacasa, the resolution was passed
and adopted by the following vote:
AYES: Commissioner Plummer
Commissioner Lacasa
Commissioner Gibson
Commissioner Gordon
Mayor Ferre
NOES: None
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Confirm assessment roll for construction of
33. PUBLIC HEARING: DOUGLAS SANITARY SEWER IMPROVEMENT SR-5304-S
(Sideline)
The following resolution was introduced by Reverend Gibson who moved
its adoption:
RESOLUTION NO. 79-108
A RESOLUTION CONFIRMING ASSESSMENT ROLL FOR CONSTRUCTION OF
DOUGLAS SANITARY SEWER IMPROVEMENT SR-5304-S IN DOUGLAS
SANITARY SEWER IMPROVEMENT DISTRICT SR-5304-S AND REMOVING
ALL PENDING LIENS FOR THIS IMPROVEMENT NOT HEREBY CERTIFIED
(Here follows body of resolution, omitted here and
on file in the Office of the City Clerk)
Upon being seconded by Mr. Plummer, the resolution was passed and adopted
by the following vote:
AYES: Commissioner Gibson
Commissioner Plummer
Commissioner Lacasa
Commissioner Gordon
Mayor Ferre
Confirm assessment roll for construction of
34. PUBLIC HEAPING: S.W. 8TH AVENUE SIDEWALK IMPROVEMENT SK-4337
The following resolution was introduced by Commissioner Gibson who moved
its adoption:
RESOLUTION NO. 79-109
A RESOLUTION CONFIRMING ASSESSMENT ROLL FOR CONSTRUCTION OF
S. W. 8TH AVENUE SIDEWALK IMPROVEMENT SK-4387 IN S. W. 8TH
AVENUE SIDEWALK IMPROVEMENT DISTRICT SK-4387 AND REMOVING
ALL PENDING LIENS FOR THIS IMPROVEMENT NOT HEREBY CERTIFIED
(Here follows body of resolution, omitted here and
on file in the Office of the City Clerk)
Upon being seconded by Commissioner Lacasa, the resolution was passed
and adopted by the following vote:
AYES: Commissioner Plummer
Commissioner Gordon
Commissioner Gibson
Commissioner Lacasa
Mayor Ferre
NOES: None
212
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FED
Confirm ordering Resolution 78-792 and
35. PUBLIC HEARING: authorize the City Clerk to advertise for
sealed bids for the construction of
SOUTH BAY SANITARY SEWER IMPROVEMENT SR-5454-C
The following resolution vas introduced by Commissioner Lacasa who moved
its adoption:
RESOLUTION 79-110
A RESOLUTION CONFIRMING ORDERING RESOLUTION NO. 78-792
AND AUTHORIZING THE CITY CLERK TO ADVERTISE FOR SEALED
BIDS FOR THE CONSTRUCTION OF SOUTH BAY SANITARY SEWER
IMPROVEMENT SR-5454-C (centerline sewer) IN SOUTH BAY
SANITARY SEWER IMPROVEMENT DISTRICT SR-5454-C
(centerline sewer)
(Here follows body of resolution, omitted here
and on file in the Office of the City Clerk)
Upon being seconded by Commissioner Gibson, the resolution was passed and
adopted by the following vote:
AYES: Comu.issiorur Plummer
Cot..r..i s s i oner Gibson
Cotr iss:. ner Lacasa
Commissioner Gordon
Mayor Ferre
NOES: P:o'lc
Joel Jeffr€ a?neared and expressed the opinion that people should not be forced
to use �::-.!-_.ry sewers and suggested the use of existing septic tanks.
Mayor Ferro rtated the City has a commitment to have the City of Miami 100% sewered.
36. RESOLUTION OF CONDOLENCES TO THE FAMILY OF PATRICIO MEKIS
Mayor of Santiago, Chile on the sad occasion of the Mayor's
untimely death
The following resolution was introduced by Mr. Lacasa who moved its adoption:
RESOLUTION 79-111
A RESOLUTION EXPRESSING THE CONDOLENCES OF THE CITY COMMISSION
TO THE FAMILY AND FRIENDS OF PATRICIO MEKIS
(Here follows body of resolution, omitted here and
on file in the office of the City Clerk)
Upon being seconded by Commissioner Gibson, the resolution was passed
and adopted by the following vote:
AYES:
Commissioner Gordon
Commissioner Gibson
Commissioner Plummer
Commissioner Lacass
Mayor Ferre
NOES: None
213
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ADJOURNMENT:
There being no further business to come before the City Commission, the
meeting was adjourned at 2s05 O•Clock ♦.lt.
ATTEST: Ralph G. Ongie
City Clerk
Natty Hirai
Assistsnt City Clerk
oftv
c,• J :,,
r. • 10 DU
MAURICE A. TERRE
Mayor
214
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I'Y CIF WiAMI
DOCUMENT
INDEX
MEETING DATE:
February 22, 1979
ITEM N0.
DOCUMENT IDENTIFICATION
COMMISSION 1 RETRIEVAL
ACTION CODE NO.
12
13
14
COMMISSION AGENDA AND CITY CLERK REPORT
AMENDING SECTION 56-30 OF THE CODE OF THE CODE OF THE
CITY OF MIAMI
AMENDING THE MIAMI CITY EMPLOYEES' RETIREMENNT SYSTEM
(ORDINANCE 2230, JANUARY 1, 1940, AS AMENDED), AS
APPEARING IN CODIFIED FORM AS PART OF CHAPTER 2 OF THE
CODE OF THE CITY OF MIAMI, 1957
FINDING AND DECLARING A NEED FOR A HEALTH FACILITIES
AUTHORITY WITHIN THE CITY OF MIAMI AND ESTABLISHING
SUCH AN AUTHORITY AS A PUBLIC INSTRUMENTALITY UNDER THE
PROVISIONS OF CHAPTER 74-323, LAW OF FLORIDA
CONCERNING THE 2ND ANNUAL OPEN HOUSE 8 FESTIVAL, WHICH
IS TO BE HELD ON MARCH 11, 1979.
AMENDING ORDINANCE NO. 6871, THE COMPREHENSIVE ZONING
ORDINANCE FOR THE CITY OF MIAMI, BY CHANGING THE ZONIN
CLASSIFICATION OF LOT 13 LESS THE WEST 10 FEET
AUTHORIZING THE CITY MANAGER TO SUBMIT A GRANT APPLICA-
TION TO THE U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HOUSING AND URBAN DEVE-
LOPMENT'. FOR THE PROPOSED COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT PROGRAM
DURING 1979-82
AUTHORIZING THE CITY MANAGER TO EMPLOYE THE DeMARCHE
ASSOCIATES AS FINANCIAL ADVISORS TO THE TRUSTEES OF THE
MIAMI CITY GENERAL EMPLOYEES' RETIREMENT PLAN
APPROVING THE EMPLOYMENT BY THE BOARD OF TRUSTEES OF
THE MIAMI CITY GENERAL EMPLOYEES' RETIREMENT PLAN OF
THE PAN AMERICAN BANK, N.A.
AUTHORIZING THE CITY MANAGER TO EXECUTE AN AMENDATORY
AGREEP1ENT
GRANTING A VARIANCE FROM ORDINANCE NO. 6871, ARTICLE XI
SECTION 5, TO PERMIT A STRUCTURE NORTH OF THE INTER-
SECTION OF MARY STREET AND BAYSHORE DRIVE.
OFFICIALLY VACATING AND CLOSING CLARK COURT AND
DELMONDE STREET, BOUNDED BY MARY STREET AND BAYSHORE
DRIVE, AS PER TENTATIVE PLAT NO. 1027-"JAMESTOWN CENTER
GRANTING A CONDITIONAL USE AS LISTED IN ORDINANCE NO.
6871, ARTICLE XI, SECTION 1(5)(a)
CONFIRMING ASSESSMENT ROLL FOR CONSTRUCTION OF DOUGLAS
SANITARY SEWER IMPROVEMENT SR-5304-C IN DOUGLAS SANI-
TARY SEWER IMPROVEMENT
R-79-93
R-79-95
R-79-98
R-79-99
R-79-100
R-79-101
R-79-102
R-79-103
R-79-104
R-79-107
0037
0038
0039
79-93
79-95
0040
79-98
79-99
79-100
79-101
79-102
79-103
79-104
79-107
TEM N0.
DOCUMENT IDENTIFICATION
15
16
17
18
CONFIRMING ASSESSMENT ROLL FOR CONSTRUCTION OF DOUGLAS
SANITARY SEWER IMPROVEMENT SR-5304-S IN DOUGLAS SANI-
TARY SEWER IMPROVEMENT DISTRICT
CONFIRMING ASSESSMENT ROLL FOR CONSTRUCTION OF S.W.
8 AVENNUE SIDEWALK IMPROVEMENT SK-4387 IN S.W. 8 AVENUE
SIDEWALK IMPROVEMENT DISTRICT SK-4387
CONFIRMING ORDERING RESOLUTION NO. 78-792
EXPRESSING THE CONDOLENCES OF THE CITY COMMISSION
TO THE FAMILY AND FRIENDS OF PATRICIO MEKIS
-am
CU'MENTIN
CONTINUED
COMMISSION RETRIEVAL
ACTION CODE NO.
R-79-108
R-79-109
R-79-110
R-79-111
79-108
79-109
79-110
79-111
•