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HomeMy WebLinkAboutCC 1986-06-10 MinutesMINUTES OF SPECIAL MEETING OF THE CITY COMMISSION OF MIAMI FLORIDA iirr { On the 10th day of June, 1986, the City Commission of Miami, Florida, met at its regular meeting place in the City Hall, 3500 Pan American Drive, Miami, Florida in Special Session for the consideration of City business in a matter of great public importance, namely the settlement in the Michael s Johnson vs City of Miami case. The meeting was called to order at 2:35 P.M. by Mayor Xavier Suarez with the following members of the Commission found to be present: Commissioner Joe Carollo Commissioner Miller J. Dawkins Commissioner Rosario Kennedy Vice -Mayor J. L. Plummer, Jr. Mayor Xavier L. Suarez ALSO PRESENT: Cesar Odio, City Manager Lucia Allen Dougherty, City Attorney Matty Hirai, City Clerk Walter J. Foeman, Assistant City Clerk An invocation was delivered by Mayor Suarez. Vice -Mayor Plummer then led those present in a pledge of allegiance to the flag. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ r� = - 1. SETTLEMENT: $525,000 TO MICHAEL JOHNSON ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mayor Suarez: This Commission has been convened in special session, pursuant to powers enumerated in the memorandum that I sent out, and to consider the case of Michael Johnson vs the City of Miami, in the District Court of the U.S. Court for the Southern District of Florida, and the case number as stated. NOTE FOR THE RECORD: Commissioner Carollo entered the meeting at 2:39 P.M. Commissioner Kennedy entered the meeting at 2:40 P.M. Mayor Suarez: Madam City Attorney or Mr. City Manager? Mr. Odio: I don't know anything. Mrs. Dougherty: Yes sir. Mr. Mayor, we are asking you to approve a settlement in the amount of $525,000, in a case where the plaintiff, Michael Johnson, was injured from a shotgun wound by the City of Miami Police Department or officers, as he entered - as he was trying to exit the Zayre shopping center during the riots, when the police officers were entering it. We've always known that Mr. Johnson had a compensable injury for his arm, but we did not expect that - or we wanted to make sure - that the plaintiff was able to prove, or meet the burden of proof on the civil rights claim. When Judge Aronovitz denied our directed verdict on all of the civil rights claim, our exposure became extraordinarily higher than it was before. We are therefore asking - and the reason it becomes higher is because attorney's fees and costs are additional when a civil rights count is sustained against the City. We are therefore asking for this settlement, and Henry Latimer from the law firm of Fine Jacobson Block & England, and Leon Firtel, my Assistant City Attorney, had been trying the case for two -and -a -half weeks, and they are here to answer any questions, if you so desire. We have passed out, for the record, a Commission memorandum and a resolution for all of your perusal. Mr. Plummer: Madam City Attorney, I want you to put on the record what you told me - the record about why you felt our chances, based on the fact of the testimony, the reports and the departmental rules. vg 1 June 10, 1986 ,' a;';- ~3`i i Mrs. Dougherty: The poignancy of the testimony was something that was not ?'` anticipated prior to trial. The rulings of the judge is another reason, the n~' constituency of the jury, the prior demands, the fact that we went to the "~ hospital and tried to charge Mr. Johnson with criminal actions after he was {~ shot. All of these actions mitigate in favor of settling the case. ~i - ~'~- Mr. Plummer: Would you speak in particularly the point that irritates me, ~>',, and I'm not speaking to this particular case, but it was brought out by you 'Y~' that it once again applied - departmental rules worked against us. ~~:,. Mayor Suarez: Did they cite any departmental rules that we had violated, in effect, by having them - we are put at a disadvantage. Is that ... ? ~' Mrs. Dougherty: Their complaint alleged that we did not have an adequate ~" ~ policy for riot control and for shotgun policy. Mr. Plummer: That's a departmental rule? Mrs. Dougherty: Yes, sir. That was the basis of their civil rights complaint. Mr. Plummer: Now, Mr. Manager, my question to you. You've heard this for the first time. In my sixteen years, this is about the third or fourth time, not ,- this particular facet, but supposedly the departmental rules and the courts of law work against us and cost us money. What is being done to address that problem - if it is, in effect, a problem? We might recall the other case in _ "- which we recently settled because somebody was out of their zone. It cost this City a lot of money. What are we doing to correct that situation that is ' laying us wide open for liability? The only other question, Madam City Attorney, that I want you to answer: as we all are aware, the State ~~" Legislature has just made a ruling in reference to pain and suffering with a cap. Does that apply here? If we were to lose an appeal, does that come into ;, play? And I think all of these questions have got to be answered before we ~== - hear the final recommendation of your office. ~ ~` ~~_ Mrs. Dougherty: The answer is that would not apply, because it cannot apply °- _ retroactively. ~~~~„ , '' Mr. Plummer: Even on an appeall ~.~ Mrs. Dougherty: That's correct. ~:-~~ r~~.?< Mr. Plummer: In other words, it's based on when the episode took place, `~,;"• ~.e;_~ rather than the time that the award is given. Is that correct? Mrs. Dougherty: That's correct. n r ~~ - w.. Y Mr. Flummer: Just for my own information, that which is proposed and passed ~ .. by the Legislature, yet to be signed by the governor, is a maximum of how much >~ ~'r money? ~~ • ' A• ~ ~~~~ '.~. Mrs. Dougherty: I can t answer that. r ~ - Mayor Suarez: Pain and suffering - recoveries are limited. ~~'~ ` ~'"~'_ '~'-:. Mrs. Dougherty: $250,000, but there are a lot of caveats to it. It has to be F~ A if r ~~ over twenty ... ~~ ~ ~r :~'~ ~:~ -~ Mr. Plummer: And the next question I've got, and excuse me for taking up the '~'~~ `~-; time, but I think you need to inform this Commission exactly ... ,; ~„ ,,:. ..~,~~ ~, ~ ~4 ~,~*~ ~ ~ ' Mrs. Dougherty: I will. t `~ T r~ ` , -- ~,,~ Mr. Plummer: Does that which is passed by the State of Florida apply in a ~, ,. ~~' `° `~ federal court? I don't know those answers. ,~~~~ &} __ ~k ., - ~,. Mrs. Dougherty: I will give you a full report. ~~~ ~ ,` ~~~~~ Mr. Plummer: I think those are answers we've got to have. Thank you very std ` much. vg Z June 10, 1986 ~_ pfp 1 t _. ,- . ,r .r> ~> N62.' 7 2 `. 1'. r'Y[ w~1..~ t 5 ,,.Y '~,~'; ~;~~::~ =` . ti.r ~~i _. ~~ ~~::~ ~_,~s ~. ;~~`' r ,_ -`, ~` x, ," ~,' i, ~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~°~, ,' ~': *, ~,, „' t~.z;:< , d ;:, ~~. ~~,. ~° ::;~ ll yy`~~, , . ,~ ~~'s~ ~, ~RSY ,~.,.c,V~ ~. - ;£4 tai . M ~~.~- WqM-; ~~y S 7.' ~+ 1 i~ ~j~~ ,~ ! ~ ~ ~ iY~~• r a a ~,'~, ~~ ~i ~ 1~ v 4 `°a r; .~:~_~ ~ ~~} ,9 ~~. °~~ ... Mrs. Dougherty: Henry Latimer is here, and Leon Firtel, if you have any questions. Mayor Suarez: You want to try to answer any of the Commissioner's questions on that? I know the Legislature was proposing - in fact I believe they did pass a law - that limited pain and suffering recoveries - and if part of the action, even in federal court is a state action, it still would help, the limitation would help us in some situations, would it not? Mr. Henry Latimer: Well, this was precisely one of the reasons that caused us to look very, very seriously at settling the case, and that was: following the ,judge's denial of our motions for directed verdict on the civil rights claims, then that effectively nullified any State cap that might apply, and specifically on the "shotgun policy" question which was alleged in the complaint... Mayor Suarez: Because there is a Federal claim involved. Mr. Latimer: A federal claim involved, and to that extent the action itself, based on the injury to Mr. Johnson's arm, would have therefore been governed by State - I mean, I'm sorry, Federal law, as opposed to State. Mayor Suarez: Just to clarify, there is no limit on Federal claims? Mr. Latimer: Not under 1983, as I'm aware of , Mr. Mayor. Mayor Suarez: Have there been any court decisions that interpret if by the State constitutional limitation you could apply to the Federal claim, that limitation? Mr. Latimer: Well, I could not give you a precise answer in terms of citing a case, but I know that going into this trial, and as of May 18, 1980, when the incident occurred that, essentially, they had an avenue of going two routes. That is, the State action that was a part of this case, where if negligence had been found in the State action, the cap would have applied, absolutely, without question. Mayor Suarez: To that portion of the claim? Mr. Latimer: To that portion of the claim, but they took an alternative approach, that approach being also making the negligence action a Federal claim, and to that extent the exposure was unlimited. Mr. Plummer: What is our potential liability , if we don't settle? What are they asking for? Mr. Latimer: The complaint itself alleged two million dollars. Mrs. Kennedy: Two million dollars. Mr. Latimer: I have good reason to believe that, that amount will be requested and perhaps more, if it does, in fact, go to the fury. In addition to that, attorneys' fees and cost. We conservatively estimate that a request for attorneys' fees would range anywhere from $200,000 to $300,000. Mayor Suarez: Has there been any proposal, prior to now, to settle the cafe for less than the $525,000? Mr. Latimer: There have been continuous and open negotiations. Mayor Suarez: Did we improve or worsen our position by waiting this long, is what I am asking? Mr. Latimer: I think we improved our position. As a matter of fact... Mayor Suarez: Well, that answers my question, assuming that at no point did they come in and say, "we'll take X amount," and X amount is less than $525,000. I presumed that never happened? Mr. Latimer: Well, not to my ... Mayor Suarez: I mean sometimes if you don't accept the settlement earlier ... vg 3 June 10, 1986 ;UAL . .3. _ T E .. .~... l ~ t ~ ~~3{ ~«~: t:'_ b ~_ ~ ~~( . ~ ~; +' ~ , , " Mr. Latimer: Well, I don't recall any demands, nor offer to settle being less , , than amount... . 4 jL~ .. _ ~ _` ~ , i ` Mayor Suarez: Than five-twenty-five? T. g ~=~. ~ . Mr. Latimer: I have no knowledge of that, no. - . y ~` ~ Mayor Suarez: Leon, do you remember any? a ~x`~ ~ Mr. Leon Firtel: There was a lot of speculation as to various numbers, but it ;' ` wasn't on the table that way. i Mra. Dougherty: There was never a formal offer. There is a potential that t_.. if, prior to trial, before picking the jury, we could have come in for ~ something less than that. _ Mayor Suarez: What happened? The jury just didn't come out the way we wanted it to? Mrs. Dougherty: I'd say that was it. Also ... ~;~` Mayor Suarez: Plus the ruling of the court. Mrs. Dougherty: The ruling of the court was really the major factor. Mr. Dawkins: That was the main factor and not the makeup of the jury? >,: Mrs. Dougherty: The ruling of the court was, in my mind, the ... Mr. Latimer: That was the primary factor, Commissioner Dawkins. In my '~= opinion, we had a representative jury to try this kind of case and I have no - feelings, one way or the other, that the jury was more slanted toward the ~ defendant as opposed to the City. In my opinion, given the jury panel that we ~,= - had, we had a good makeup, but they were all ... _ ~ ~ "~,~~ Mayor Suarez: Why do you keep saying "we had"? We still have that jury .,,. ~~` - - :~~~ panel, I mean the jury. ; ~~~~ Mr. Dawkins: And the jury panel was made up of what, sir? .~i°` ~ ; „ Mr. Latimer: There was three Black females and three Black ... 3r ` Mr. Dawkins: Were they old enough to be mothers? r ~ ~~fi~'u' Mr. Latimer: My recollection is that all of them were mothers. ,~, Mr. Dawkins: So therefore they might have a tendency to feel sorry for `~ ~~~~~F something that could have been its child, huh? - ~, ~, :~ ,~~ *r~rt~ ~.<< Mr. Latimer: Well, naturally you may have to presume that but that certainly ~"_`- ~,~'~~ ~ was not one of the factors that we took into account. ~ Y. ,p t~~ ~,~~ ,~ ~s Mr. Dawkins: Well, I'm taking it into account - me, up here. ~,. ~. ~ ~~ { ., ; < ~~.. '~ - Mrs. Kennedy: What was the composition of the rest of the jury - three ~;~ j females and the rest? ~ ~) ~f~ ~ r~ ~~ ~.~.-.~.~t-a~-.d-~...: Mr. Latimer: Three Black females and three Latin males. ~~:~~-~~ Mrs. Kennedy: No Anglos? ~-~ th. Mr. Latimer: No Anglos. ~: t,.; px!=. Mr. Dawkins: They all discriminated, huh? ~': .'~ . Mr. Carollo: The bottom line, besides some of the other points being brought ~~~ up now is that from the beginning there has been a tremendous amount of ~~'' inconsistenc from the Y art P of the Cit of Miami Y em to ees. This is wh we're P Y Y going to have to pay now. At the same time, if an accurate investigation would have been done from the beginning, maybe we wouldn't be here today. There are also some unanswered questions from the part of the defendant at the vg 4 June 10, 1986 ~~:~ ~~ r _ ~ .,~,- _ ~. : ;;F„, time - Mr. Johnson - who's the alleged victim now - where it's never been f '," quite clear just what he was doing in that shopping center that afternoon. ~L'._ That's not clear whatsoever. Some of the statements that he made I think any ~ `= ,,,- logical person would find hard to swallow. Nevertheless, the City cannot ~ prove otherwise for his motives in having been there. The bottom line, again, : '" is that if we would have done an accurate investigation from the beginning and ~_ 3 r. if we would not have had so man inconsistencies includin man statements b Y ~ B Y y ~~ - `"~'~` k~. " our own employees, we would not be in the situation that we are today. If the a' r ` , vehicle that Mr. Johnson was driving at that time - I feel should have ~~ probably been checked. It was never found - to the best of my knowledge, the ~,_ information that I have. I think that was a mistake on the part of our police }~ that were investigating that, besides many other things. Two officers says , ~' that they did not hear any guns go off, while the other officer says," yes, ~~,' his shotgun went off." Well, it's very hard not to hear a shotgun go off, if ~_ r" you are in a car, when that shotgun's going off out the window. There were _ ~ i many other inconsistencies. I think that our Law Department has done the best that it can under the circumstances that we have and I think it would be foolish for us to go on any further with this in the courts because it's obvious it's going to cost us a heck of a lot more down the line if we don't ` ~ settle this now. And I'm ready to make the motion to approve the resolution that has been recommended by the City Attorney at this time. ~` Mr. Dawkins: I second and under discussion. ~{' '„. . Mayor Suarez: So moved and seconded. Mr. Dawkins: Under discussion, I have to agree with my colleague, _ Commissioner Carollo, We had a hearing here - a fact-finding hearing - that ' determined that this episode was being covered up and that policemen within ' our own Police Department attempted to shield each other and et cetera and et cetera and et cetera, and I, too, feel that if this were to go on the City's liability would be greater than $500,000. ` Mayor Suarez: On that same point Commissioner Carollo and Dawkins made, I _ v,,'~ have a question. I believe the answer's self-evident, but I want to make ' sure. What is the failure to investigate or the negligent investigation have '~~, to do with the claim for damagesl Is that the basis of the Federal 1983 Act? }i _ I mean, if you do a cover up, does that mean that the plaintiff is entitled to ~''~. money? M.,, . Mr. Dawkins: May I piggyback on that, sir, before we get into that? ~~;, Mayor Suarez: Yes. -¢`= , ~- '~~` ,'rt Mr. Dawkins: It's not a matter of a cover-up making you eligible for more ~;~,~ ~'~:• money, but in the neighborhood where the incident occurred and where those ~° ~ ~ neighbors and residents had been accustomed to being abused by police and they '~,~~~„~~` ~ r ~ never saw policemen as f riends, and when this happens and it's covered up, , _ . ;~~ then you say - if you've been one of the ones who look like me and sound like °N~~n_<! me and who've been accustomed to this - then you say "another time they did it ~~'*` ` to us and they covered it up!". So it's not a matter of it's entitling ,;, -P ~~ r one to more than one's getting. It's a matter of perception among the A ~ residents, of whom three of those individuals happened to be fury members, who x ~. `: ' may or may not feel like I do. ~s'g ,. _ "" ~` ~ Mayor Suarez: But as to this specific case, an individual plaintiff will be ~r`: ettin the g g $525,000 and not the community as a whole. How does that get `. Na_ framed into a legal action? The way I stated it? ~"~ f° #'`' ~..: Mr. Firtel: Mr. Mayor, the way that the so-called cover up gets framed into a ~~~{~ legal action is through an amorphous claim called an Aisle of Access to the ~ ~. ~.r _LA Courts which the plaintiff, under Section 1983, set forth. In other words ,~;~~~ , what he was saying was that through the inaction, misactions, omissions, etc. ~ ;;..~~ ~~ ~ ~ of the Police Department investigating the matter - getting back to the ~ n` ~ ~ ~ ~~.. t original question - he was therefore denied meaningful access to the courts. ~ - ~' `~ '"'` And this is an amorphous body that's still developing as far as the law is concerned. There are a few cases Mayor Suarez: Leon, when you say it's amorphous, does that mean that there hasn't been too much support for that in the past? Are we talking about a...? Mr. Firtel: No, there are cases. vg 5 June 10, 1986 •p, _ _ _ _ _ . .. - . -- ;. ~ ~ .~ 3 `~ ~ {` ~'`- ~ ~+', d z~~ Mayor Suarez: There are cases - in this State, or in this jurisdiction? ,.",~' Mr. Firtel: Federal cases. ~~~ „`. Mayor Suarez: In this circuit? i'a ,~"' Mrs. Dougherty: While he's talking, Mr. Mayor. ~. • , Mayor Suarez: Yes. ;fir, '~` Mrs. Dougherty: What this means is that if you don't have your case investigated, you can't claim in the civil courts for dust compensation r' because no one's investigated it properly - not to mention the criminal aspects of it. u r Mr. Firtel: I don't believe the case that I'm thinking of is a fifth or eleventh circuit case, but it is well recognized, it's well cited throughout r~. the circuits and that's the way the claim is cast insofar as the cover-up is '1 concerned. There's a question of gross negligence involved, also, that should be looked at. Mayor Suarez: That's a State claim. ~.,~,., ;;, ~= .,`' _- Mr. Firtel: No, no. The most recent pronouncement by the Supreme Court on the Section 1983 Law specifically reversed Paratt v. Taylor insofar as simple negligence is concerned. However, the most recent case - I think the opinion was issued March 21 and it's either Daniels or Davidson - there's a footnote x," _ that says we are specifically leaving the question of gross negligence open to be decided another day. ,,.:. " ,~'~' Mayor Suarez: So gross negligence in the actions that lead to the injury are ~ gross negligence in the investigation afterwards. ~ ~ ~; ~,, n3;:~" ~ Mr. Firtel: Gross negligence as being a moving force of the constitutional h,>'." claim. And here the constitutional claim is denial of access to the courts, ~`rti `_ '" the shooting itself, the riot policy, the shotgun policy, and a lot of other ~`~"' matters that are ver ver much intertwined and could create a p ~ _; _ y, y great roblem ,~,~-_ so far as liability is concerned for the City. ~~~ Mr. Plummer: Call the question. ;Mr ~~ J+ ~ ~ Mr. Carollo: Call the question. P X 4 `r.*; Mayor Suarez: Commissioner Plummer has called the question. We don't really ~~:~;~;~ necessarily have to take a vote on closing of the debate. I dust want to ask ,~ Rrx. one last question. 9m~ ~ <F S L:'.r ac -- -~ ~;~ Mr. Dawkins: The question has been called, Mr. Mayor. The question has been - ~~:.,~_ called. r Mayor Suarez: We can take a vote on that or . '.'.:;rj Mr. Dawkins: All right, let's take a vote on it. ~~y'; Mayor Suarez: ... I could rule to close the question. '` l~ Mr. Dawkins: All right, let's do that then. '~. '~^-~'~~ Mayor Suarez: Commissioner - well, I'm going to ask one more question to ~~~z;; clarify, avoiding a procedural confrontation with yourself. How would the ``Y:.: payment be made? Mrs. Dougherty: Cash payment. Mayor Suarez: Writing a check - no time payments, or anything? Mr. Odio: (off mike) I don't have cash. Mr. Carollo: That's the way we usually do it. Writing a check. Mayor Suarez: One lump sum payment. v8 6 June 10, 1986 i `', vi l F ~.i h 1" {-' :, 'Y.' ~ t~~~- {,;; ~;~ .. >~~.. . ._ ;:,, ~~ k% ~'- .. - r i. , :`;-. ~~,, ~»;: ~, 1 ~. t~< ~; , , ~~ r~ ~ ~. . ;. ,~~5 ~L .' ' .~ ~~= 4i~ x y ti ~ !- ~ ,~ a~: ~"~: ~.~, ~.sa:4 ~1,- ~ ~r ~: .~~'. t~: Y ,x ~''~ x ,~ ~.~ ~ ' ;~~ ,~ ;, . ti°' _,,; 1 ~~` ~. ' .~ ,~,{,.u ~,~ >. ~o. ~x ~, , ~ ~ a ~ '~' ~.~~<t _ ~ f ~ 4 ~ir Mr. Carollo: Unless we find a hundred and fifty that's lost, then we can give you some cash, right? Mrs. Dougherty: Usually we don't do it, but that's what Robert says. Mayor Suarez: Call the roll. The following resolution was introduced by Commissioner Carollo, who moved its adoption: RESOLUTION N0. 86-4I6 A RESOLUTION AUTHORIZING THE DIRECTOR OF FINANCE TO PAY TO MICHAEL JOHNSON, THE SUM OF FIVE HUNDRED TWENTY FIVE THOUSAND DOLLARS ($525,000.00), WITHOUT THE ADMISSION OF LIABILITY, IN FULL AND COMPLETE SETTLEMENT OF ANY AND ALL CLAIMS AND DEMANDS AGAINST THE CITY OF MIAMI, UPON EXECUTION OF A RELEASE RELEASING THE CITY OF MIAMI FROM ALL CLAIMS AND DEMANDS. (Here follows body of resolution, omitted here and on file in the Office of the City Clerk.) Upon being seconded by Commissioner Dawkins, the resolution was passed and adopted by the following vote- AYES: Commissioner Joe Carollo Commissioner Miller J. Dawkins Commissioner Rosario Kennedy Vice-Mayor J. L. Plummer, Jr. Mayor Xavier L. Suarez NOES: None. ABSENT: None. DURING ROLL CALL: Mr. Plummer: Based on the recommendation of the City Attorney, I vote yes. 2. BRIEF DISCISSION RE DRUG TRAFFIC IN CERTAIN AREA OF CITY Mayor Suarez: Mr. Dawkins had asked to make a quick statement for those of you that are wanting to stay. Mr. Dawkins: I asked the Mayor to extend this for one reason. We've got a heck of a drug flea market on 59th, 60th and 61st Street between 12th and 15th Avenue. Mr. Manager, although you're sweeping it, I'd like for you to remove all those junk automobiles, abandoned buildings, the dumpsters and old furniture because this is where the guys are hiding the drugs and as soon as you release them they go right back to this stash and go right back into business. Mr. Odio: Yes, sir. Mr. Dawkins: I'll get a memo to you tomorrow, but I'd like the Commission to back me up on having that area clean. Mr. Carollos Absolutely. NOTE FOR THE RECORD: Commissioner Plummer furnished tickets for the boat regatta taking place the coming weekend. ~B 7 June 10, 1986 ~- ~.'.. i S y ..~~~ 4 3sY.uL'~ 45 Y ~. l~ ~dt~sfi~. ~_.L ~~. ~', ~~ ~ ~ ~~: , $'r Mayor Suarez: In connection with the drug peddling out there I want to tell yF you that today, coincidentally, I was at Drew Junior High the Principal, Mr. ~ Morley, said to congratulate the City on the fantastic fob that has been .'' P carried out over the last couple of weeks there. They're super grateful. I =~~.` said make sure you put it in the form of a letter to the M iami Herald, and so ~~, on, but he'll be calling you or letting us know about it. Mr. Odio: Yes, sir. ~: THBR$ BEING NO F'[JRTHBR BIISINBSS TO COl~ BBFOR$ THS CITY COt~lISSION, THS STING YAS ADJOIIRNSD AT 2:57 P.d. dir... %avier L. Suarez ATTBST: !fatty Hirai CITY CI~RK Walter J. Foeman ASSISTANT CITY CLBRK ;'>4 , !lAYOR r~ ~'+~ Q 18 96 ~. Qr"~~~C'Q,Fti-~~~ G1 Y of 9~ INCORP ~~N:1TEI ~: 8 June 10, 1986 .. , ;~- - - ..,~?