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HomeMy WebLinkAboutCC 1997-06-28 MinutesLi I T ;A y . op lea 96 ®o,F�- PREPARED BY THE OFFICE OF THE CITY CLERK CITY HALL WALTER FOEKAN CITY CLERK Jf INDEX MINUTES OF SPECIAL MEETING June 28, 1997 ITEM SUBJECT LEGISLATION PAGE NO. NO. 1, A) DISCUSSION CONCERNING PROPOSED DISCUSSION 2-31 SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICT MAPS 6/28/97 FORWARDED TO CITY COMMISSION BY BLUE RIBBON RE -DISTRICTING COMMITTEE -- AREAS OF CONCERN: STAGGERED TERMS COST FACTOR OF OPERATIONS AND LOGISTICS OF ADDITIONAL COMMISSION MEMBERS FORMAT OF BALLOT QUESTION USAGE OF BLOCK VERSUS CENSUS TRACT DATA QUESTION OF STRONG MAYOR (B) INSTRUCT DEMOGRAPHIC CONSULTANTS TO PREPARE MAPS BASED ON CENSUS TRACT AND FIVE DISTRICTS TO REVIEW AT SPECIAL COMMISSION MEETING OF JULY 1, 1997. 2. COMMENTS CONCERNING ELECTION TO DISCUSSION 32-34 EITHER RETAIN OR ABOLISH THE CITY OF 6/28/97 MIAMI -- PROPOSED PAC (POLITICAL ACTION COMMITTEE) -- NEED TO CAMPAIGN TO SAVE TI-fE CITY. MINUTES OF SPECIAL MEETING OF THE CITY COMMISSION OF MIAMI, FLORIDA On the 28th day of June, 1997, the City Commission of Miami, Florida, met at its regular meeting place in the City Hall, 3500 Pan American Drive, Miami, Florida to consider a matter of public import, namely, proposed single member district representation in the City of Miami Commission. The meeting was called to order at 7:12 a.m. by Vice Mayor Regalado with the following members of the Commission found to be present: ALSO PRESENT: Vice Mayor Tomas Regalado Commissioner Wifredo Gort Commissioner J.L. Plummer, Jr. A. Quinn Jones, III, City Attorney Walter J. Foeman, City Clerk Maria J. Argudin, Assistant City Clerk Aaron Weeks, Chief of Staff ABSENT: Mayor Joe Carollo Commissioner Humberto Hernandez Edward Marquez, City Manager An invocation was delivered by Commissioner Gort, who then led those present in a pledge of allegiance to the flag. 1 June 28, 1997 1. (A)DISCUSSION CONCERNING PROPOSED SINGLE MEMBER DISTRICT MAPS FORWARDED TO CITY COMMISSION BY BLUE RIBBON RE- DISTRICTING COMMITTEE -- AREAS OF CONCERN: *STAGGERED TERMS -COST FACTOR OF OPERATIONS AND LOGISTICS OF ADDITIONAL COMMISSION MEMBERS -FORMAT OF BALLOT QUESTION -USAGE OF BLOCK VERSUS CENSUS TRACT DATA -QUESTION OF STRONG MAYOR (B)INSTRUCT DEMOGRAPHIC CONSULTANTS TO PREPARE MAPS BASED ON CENSUS TRACT AND FIVE DISTRICTS TO REVIEW AT SPECIAL COMMISSION MEETING OF JULY 1, 1997. Commissioner Regalado: All right. Commissioner Gort, if we can start the workshop, please? Commissioner Gort: Good morning. Mainly what I'd like to do is, I'd like to go through the process. With us we've got Howard Leonard, assistant... as one of our attorneys. Howard, thank you for being here. I'd like to go through the process. As you all recall, you all asked me to chair this committee, which this committee was charged to come up with different plans. This committee had several meetings... I'll wait for Kuper to get here to get the files, which meetings were notified to all of you... First two meetings, we talked about the legality of doing the selections, how to go about selecting, and also to bring in two experts down here and then we got Professor Lichtman and Wilson. Both have previous experience, as they worked with Dade County and they worked with the school system in setting up their districts. As it was explained to us, the selection, based on the district, they got together with us... with the committee. The committee gave them some ideas... coming back... and David I hope you have them all... With us also is David Whittington with the Planning Department has been very helpful to us. We gave about seven different alternatives for them to come back, different options, six, four and so on. They came back with the different options and as you will recall, we sent memos to all of you asking you to please to send information and any information you all want to add or delete to the extra so they can go ahead and deviate and come up with the plans. What I'd like do is, I'd like to have David go over it since he's more knowledgeable than I am. What my understanding in the selections of the districts, they cannot look at the ethnicity. I'll let David explain later on what's the methodology that they used to do so. My understanding... Commissioner Plummer: Wait, wait, wait, repeat that. Repeat that last statement. Commissioner Gort: My understanding by the attorneys, the ethnicity is not the only way to select the districts, they have deal with social, economic... and I'll let David go into details in that. At the same time, there has to be X-amount of population in each district. It could be plus or minus ten percent in each one of them. And that's how they came to a selection. The districts came to us... to the meeting we had here, we had three public hearings, one at Miami High, one at Miami Jackson and the one we had here in City Hall. At each one of those districts, the priorities were set up... most of the public hearings, the favorite one was the 6-213, which is going to be presented to you all, and the committee recommended 6-2C, which is the recommendation they put in there, and the 4-2. And those are the ones they have in front of us. What I'd like to do is, I'd like for David to explain the procedure, methodology that was used by the experts in the selection of the districts, and at the same time, to show all the districts that we have and the different alternatives that were shown to us. 2 June 28, 1997 Commissioner Plummer: 6-2C and 4-2. NOTE FOR THE RECORD: Commissioner Hernandez entered the meeting at 7:14 a.m. David Whittington (Chief of GIS): Let me make sure everyone has the latest plan. I have stacks of them on each side, up on the shelf here. I'll distribute a copy to each Commissioner before I begin. The latest plan which was put together only yesterday, is at the beginning of the latest copy. You should have 6-2C, 6-2C is the first page of your packet, the latest packet, so that everybody has that information first. And I'll begin my explanation. I'm Dave Whittington, work for Jack Luft in the Planning Department. I've been here for a long, long time, and I have worked with demographics in the City since I started with the City. So before I actually get into the plan and the legalities of the plan, let me just speak to the demographics as a City Planner, not as anything directly related to this particular effort. I have plans that I prepared from the 1990 Census that show the demographics of the City and this is only intended as background, but I think it might be helpful as we go into the plan in the effort for redistricting. As these three maps show, and again, this is my effort as a City Planner, this is direct data... our data from the 1990 Census. This is not anything related to the districting plans. This is what the 1990 Census showed was the ratio ethnic composition of the City, where everyone lived, percentages of Hispanics, non -Hispanic whites, non -Hispanic blacks, Afro-Americans, if you please. And you can see that they are concentrated in different neighborhoods of the City. That's simply a reality. That has nothing to do with how these plans were arrived at, but that's a reality of our situation here in the City and you can just keep this in the back of your mind, as we proceed into the plan and the legalities and the methodology of the plan. But I just wanted to leave you with this general impression, so you have a clear idea of the concentrations and the spread of this throughout the City. Commissioner Plummer: So we're all on the same dictionary, David explain to me what is in all categories, white, eighteen and eight percent. What does that mean? Mr. Whittington: I'll get to that. That's a little complex. I'll work into that, if you please, Commissioner. Commissioner Plummer: Okay. Mr. Whittington: The next step is to give you just a general impression of the methodology that the consultants used in arriving at the different plans. The methodology concentrated on neighborhoods, communities, communities of interest, likeness of problems and concerns in different neighborhoods and areas that the City might have. We have an excellent starting point here in the City of Miami, those are our NET (Neighborhood Enhancement Team) areas. Those NET areas should be reflected in the plan. Those NET areas should be the starting point of the plan and, to my knowledge, my understanding to the... according to the consultants, they were and every effort has been made to try and incorporate and respect the NET areas of the City. As a very crude approximation of the type of socioeconomic characteristics that they used, you could look at one 1990 Census indicator... this is one that's been eluded to by the consultants, been looked at by members of the committee, but median household income is a rough proximation for the kind of concerns that enter into communities, be it poverty, be it Stallone Gate, whatever you like in the very affluent neighborhoods. So that different communities based on socioeconomic characteristics, such as income, but many others are part of what constitutes an area or district of like concerns, so that you can have a representative reflect those concerns to 3 June 28, 1997 11"" t,V l P, the governing body and the individual constituents of that district can feel that their concerns are represented. Commissioner Plummer: This is getting to be incredible, stupid. If everything he's saying there, we're going to have to have eighty-eight districts, for income, for ethnic, for population. Mr. Whittington: Okay. The Blue Ribbon Committee, which was assembled to guide the experts in what types of plans to prepare, gave them a game plan. The Blue Ribbon Committee instructed the experts to prepare plans that showed four districts and six districts. In each of those plans, they were to come back with two different alternatives. Two alternatives for a four - district single member district plan, two alternatives for a six -district single member plan. Commissioner Plummer: That's district plus Mayor. Mr. Whittington: Each of those, in all these cases would have a Mayor, be it strong mayor, weak mayor, regular mayor. There would always be an odd number of votes. How the Mayor's vote would enter into it, separate issue... Commissioner Plummer: Was the other scenario ever looked at, that there be no Mayor? Mr. Whittington: I don't believe so. Any members of the Blue Ribbon Committee here assure me that that was not. Commissioner Plummer: Some forms of council have no mayor. All they have is a president of the council, who is elected by council. Was that discussed? Mr. Whittington: That was not discussed, that was not considered. Commissioner Plummer: Why? Mr. Whittington: I'll have to let Commissioner Gort address that point. Commissioner Plummer: Okay. Commissioner Gort: What's the question? Commissioner Plummer: The question is, was there any consideration given to a form of government that exists in some other places where there is no mayor, just a president of council? Commissioner Gort: No. Commissioner Plummer: Okay. Is there a reason why that wasn't looked into? Just not brought up. Commissioner Gort: Just not brought up. NOTE FOR THE RECORD: Mayor Carollo entered the meeting at 7:23 a.m. Commissioner Plummer: Okay. 4 June 28, 1997 cn:a� Commissioner Hernandez: Are the experts going to be here this morning? Commissioner Gort: What? Commissioner Hernandez: Are the experts... Commissioner Gort: No. Mayor Carollo: You're not finished yet? Commissioner Hernandez: Say what? Commissioner Plummer: More or less. Mayor Carollo: You're not finished? Commissioner Plummer: More or less. Commissioner Hernandez: David, I don't know if I should be asking you these questions, because I know you really weren't the one that... Mr. Whittington: It's all right. I'll try the best I can. Commissioner Hernandez: ... and I want to thank you for the... all the assistance you've given my office with the maps. When we talk about common interest, which is almost the most important aspect when we're drawing districts... we're back at six... You're saying that the new plan that was brought about was 6-2C, correct? Mr. Whittington: Yes. Commissioner Hernandez: It seems to me that nothing has changed, when you look again, between 6-2C and 6-2B, and we go back to districts one and two, we still have seventeen thousand Hispanics in district one and seventeen thousand Hispanics in district two, which are two African -American districts. Mr. Whittington: Correct. Commissioner Hernandez: Where is the commonality of interest between those thirty-five thousand Hispanics and the rest of the African -Americans that are in that district, and in comparison to districts four or five, which are Hispanic districts, and there are only a hundred and ninety-one African -Americans? What is the reasoning behind that? Where is the common interest in that? Mr. Whittington: Well, let... I'm glad you asked that. I can't give you a satisfactory answer to make it a perfect world. I can explain why it's not a perfect world. And let me try and explain that. Our NET areas, of which there are thirteen, there were previously eleven. Let's even look at eleven or thirteen districts in the City. I think everyone's been fairly satisfied, if not happy, with the NET areas. If we were to have eleven or thirteen commissioners, then we probably could satisfy the kind of statistical requirements that you have in mind. Unfortunately, we can only provide four or six districts, at least according to the Blue Ribbon Committee's recommendations. So you've got to satisfy thirteen different NET areas with only four or six districts. Somehow you're going to end up combining. And that's where some trade-offs come in. 5 June 28, 1997 Commissioner Hernandez: I know. I'm not even interested in the NET areas. I don't think we should even be considering the NET areas when we're drawing districts. Commissioner Plummer: I agree. Commissioner Hernandez: As far as I'm concerned, maybe the NET area... the NET concept is not even going to exist a year from now, so I don't even think we should be even comparing NET with districts and stuff like that. Commissioner Gort: Humberto, I think I might be able to answer your question. In talking to the experts, I addressed the same question to them. My understanding, when they're putting the districts together, they have to have X-amount of population in each district. Each district, my understanding, is composed of sixty thousand, plus or minus ten per cent in each one of them. So a lot of time in drawing the districts, they have to change the calculations of the population in each of the districts. So when I talked to them about the words that the... what was mentioned here in the meeting, those districts one and two going into the... going into the other neighborhoods, like you're saying, there was no comparison. It says those districts, those lines can be moved. But once you move one line back or north, then you have to look for the population in the other districts. He says we discuss any changes in the lines that we want to, but we also have to understand that whenever we change any of those lines, we have to change it all around, because we got to have the same amount of population, plus or minus ten percent in each district. And by the way, later on... we got their phone numbers, any other questions we can get them on the phone so we can get them answered and I guess we have the system. Mayor Carollo: If I may, I... This is a hearing, this a workshop for us, but there are a few people here and if... There might be one or two individuals that might be able to give us some information and the breakdown that might help. I don't mind listening to them now, if the rest of you wouldn't mind. John, would you like to say anything? Mr. John Lasseville: Plus or minus five percent. Mayor Carollo: Okay, come up here and say it, please. Mr. Lasseville: Plus or minus five percent. It's illegal to be ten percent off each of these districts. Commissioner Gort: I was told... yeah... more than ten percent is illegal, yes. Mr. Lasseville: Ten percent is illegal. Five percent, plus or minus five percent, right? Mr. Whittington: I need to clarify that. It's a ten percent overall deviation, which means you have to be between ninety-five and a hundred and five percent of the average population. So it's five... Commissioner Gort: There's a ten percent deviation, five percent... Mr. Whittington: ...five percent either way, or ten percent overall. Commissioner Plummer: Yeah. But answer me a question. Where do you come about understanding districts? All of this really came about because of a lawsuit. And in that lawsuit, the basis of that suit was the demand of the African community for representation on this Commission. Nothing about how much money you got, nothing about population, we want representation on that Commission that we've had and we've lost. Now, you say you can't talk... 6 June 28, 1997 } Commissioner Gort: To answer your question, I think you should... to... legal, Howard. Commissioner Plummer: How about if I ask my question before I get an answer? Commissioner Gort: No problem. Commissioner Plummer: Now, my question is, in all of these papers, and they're voluminous and they change on an hourly basis, at the best that I see, regardless of income, and you're not going to convince me that this was drawn on income in any way, shape or form, you have two districts that without question are black. I asked you for definitions, you can't give them to me, so I'll give them to you. You have two districts which are black, sixty-five percent and sixty- four. You have three districts which are Latin, eighty-nine, eighty-eight and eighty-seven. Sir, I ask you where is the so-called non -Hispanic white district? Do they have the right to have the same demand as others are making? If so... if you don't believe so, tell me why, because there is not a single district drawn in any of these papers that you have that shows at least a fifty-one percent non -Hispanic white district. There is not a single one. Willie, what I'm looking at here in these papers, if they're correct, in the 6-2C plan in District 3, which is the one that comes the closest to a so-called coastal zone, Hispanics are forty-three percent, Anglos are thirty-seven percent. Mayor Carollo: If I could try to answer your series of questions, your statements, Commissioner. This is why we went through the process that we have gone through, because all the last rulings from the federal courts, from the Supreme Court on down, have ruled that we cannot make districts solely on the basis of ethnicity, race, religion. It's got to be in a combination of many factors. Not necessarily one or two or three factors, but a variety of factors of things that people might have in common. For instance, in the district along the Grove that might include parts of Brickell or other areas up in the Northeast, these are basically condominiums by the water, they have that in common, that lifestyle, for instance. So you cannot just choose one of those criteria and try to make districts based on that. The other problem that we have in the breakdown of our population in the City of Miami is... You know, let's lay things down as they are. The City of Miami's overall Anglo population that includes many people from many diverse backgrounds that are Caucasian, it's down to maybe fifteen percent or less. So it's that... Commissioner Plummer: Well, Joe, that's true, if you take it from a standpoint that they might have a Hispanic last name, but they're an American born here and they could be considered a non -Hispanic white even though... Mayor Carollo: We're all Americans, Commissioner. Commissioner Plummer: I'm well aware of that, Joe. Mayor Carollo: But that the bottom line is that in the definitions that we are placing, either through the Election Department or through the Census Bureau, the way that our population is made up and spread out throughout this City, unless we come down to a Commission the size of Dade County government, which I don't think is workable at all in a city our size, you do not have enough of a mass of what is called Anglo, for the sake of calling it a name, to accomplish what you want in our City. Commissioner Plummer: I have the question. What is the criteria? Commissioner Gort: J.L.... 0 7 June 28, 1997 ­ Commissioner Plummer: Is a person... I need this definition. Is a person who was born in this country, but with a Hispanic last name, considered non -Hispanic white or is he considered Hispanic? Commissioner Hernandez: It depends on, under the Census, when you're looking at the Census... I was born and raised here. Commissioner Plummer: Okay. Commissioner Hernandez: So I'm considered under the Census of Cuban descent, or Hispanic descent. Under the Election Department, I'm considered a U.S. Cuban. So I'm considered someone just like you, when it comes down to voter regis... a voter in the City of Miami. So it's a different definition to a person like me. When you look at the Census, I'm a Hispanic, and when you look at the Election Department, I'm a U.S. Cuban... Commissioner Plummer: It's what you want to be, huh? Commissioner Hernandez: ...and does fall under the percentage, that's why there's such a drop in the Anglo... When you look at the twelve percent, the real percentage of Anglo voters in the City of Miami drops about ten thousand voters... about ten percent, which are U.S. Cubans that are stuck in that label of Anglos, when you look at the election numbers. Commissioner Gort: J.L., also my understanding that according to what was told by the expert, Professor Lichtman, you have... with the Hispanics, and this is a court case, and the attorneys can help me later on... that you have to have more Hispanics... although districts was drawn by population, they're not all registered voters. Commissioner Plummer: Willie, it's hard for me to fathom in this town that the way these maps are drawn, conceivably, I guess my same concern is going to be expressed as that of the Afro- Americans, that they will not have representation on this Commission. And if you do not have a single district that is majority Anglo, if you wish to call them, then I think that the Anglo community in this town has the same right to demand that of what the African community is demanding. It's inconceivable to me that there would not be that kind of representation here on this Commission. Now, you know here sits a lady when I went on this Commission, twenty- seven years ago, she was the first... was it the first black... first black on this Commission, much less a... No, no, the female was Wainwright. She was the first female, yeah. And back in those days when I went on this Commission, there was one black female and all of the rest were Anglo. Now over the period of years, and I've served with, I think, thirty-six or thirty-seven different Commissioners, it has changed and it has been different and been around. But I just cannot conceive in any way, shape or form that these maps, as they're drawn, conceivably could cut out one segment of this community. And as such, I think they have the same right to demand as the Africans and the Hispanics, that they have... You know, I don't like the word demand, but they should have representation on this Commission in this City. Commissioner Regalado: Which brings the question, can we be challenged in court? Commissioner Plummer: Well, I don't know what criteria you're using. He used one criteria as income, he used another criteria as race, he used another criteria as population, so I would have to know what are the other criteria that are in consideration for which the court would show approval or disapproval. Now... Commissioner Gort: Howard, you care to answer that question, please? Mr. Howard Leonard: Good morning, Mayor and Council. My name is Howard Leonard and well, I'm not Steve Zack. Steven is out of the country. I'm one of the counsel representing the 8 June 28, 1997 0 r 1� "" Commission in the lawsuit and have participated in a number of these lawsuits and I can certainly... Commissioner Plummer: Well, whoa, whoa, now stop Howard, if you will, right there. Okay? When you say eight years representing them in the lawsuit, that lawsuit only spoke to demands of African without any other criteria whatsoever. No criteria about money, how much money you got, how much district you got, that is the basis why we're here today. And now you're telling... not you... Now I'm being told on the other hand that that's not a matter of discussion, that that is illegal. So go from there. Mr. Leonard: The criteria in... gentlemen, just so we'll cut to the chase... In creating any district map, you're talking about a fair combination between science and art. On the one hand we try to present... and everybody's just done an excellent job on the science and now I think what we're getting to is what the art is, whether the line is drawn several blocks east, whether it's drawn several, you know, blocks west, there are enumeral combinations that can be drawn. There's not one science that says there's one map that's just the perfect map. We try to create the map meeting all the legal criteria, using all the map, using all the science and I then I think what we end up is with some form of art. That's what I think is being presented to you by the Blue Ribbon Committee. Commissioner Plummer: Is art the second word... Commissioner Gort: Howard, I think the question is, legally what is the needs in drawing the maps so there will not be a challenge. Mr. Leonard: I can tell you that through the series of meetings and through the people that we've retained, that the maps before you are legally sufficient, and will probably be sustained by the court. Commissioner Hernandez: Howard, I don't know if you can answer this question, but I'd like to ask you this. Why... What would be the basis and what would be the reasoning to use a block system of drawing these districts versus a Census tract method of drawing the districts, which is usually what is used nationwide... Mr. Leonard: David, do you have the answer to that in front of you? Please? Mr. Whittington: Yes. The Census blocks were used, which comprised the facts. So it was Census information, it has to be Census information, that's how the maps were... Commissioner Hernandez: But you went on a block methodology instead of just using the actual Census tract. Because if you were to use the Census tract, the precincts would not have been divided in half. You would... Usually, the actual universe of the precinct is protected when you go by Census tract. It's a lot easier when you do that. Mr. Whittington: You can refine your district a lot better with the smaller block level. And to answer both your question and Commissioner Plummer's question, one difficulty is that while there is a large amount of non -Hispanic white population left in the City, forty-five thousand people, you need sixty thousand people to constitute a district. Commissioner Plummer: Yeah, but you only need half to constitute fifty-one percent. Mr. Whittington: Yes, sir. The problem is, as you see on this map, is that while there are concentrations of non -Hispanic whites along the coast, there is still a significant number of non - Hispanic whites throughout the City. This darker beige tone is ten to twenty-five percent, so 9 June 28, 1997 0 rtitff\ ��.N\1•rt k i,, there still are, according'to the 1990 Census... Sure, things change over time, we're stuck with that as the only data we can use. They are still spread out. One requirement of redistricting, a very hard requirement, is you can't... you're stuck with precise geographic areas, that you... You can't just say we want a black district, we want a white district. Even if legally you could, because you're restricted by geography, you end up having to say this geographic area is a district. And that then excludes all other members of an interest group or race, if that were legal, from that geographic area. Commissioner Plummer: Is the districting we're doing here today any different or any criteria different than that which was done by the State? Is that the same kind of things and they had to come under the same rule? Mr. Whittington: The rules are the same, I can say from the school... Commissioner Plummer: Then how did they come up with a district... Mr. Whittington: I don't know about the State. For Dade County and the school district, we retained the same consultants and they have used the same methodology, to my knowledge. Commissioner Plummer: But you had a district in the State Senate in which it was two blocks long, two blocks wide, from Florida City to Liberty City. Are you kidding? Commissioner Gort: Commissioner, may I explain this? Commissioner Plummer: I mean that's... Commissioner Gort: Commissioner, but my understanding is there's a lot of cities... there's a lot of states where they have been challenged and the districts have been done away with. Commissioner Plummer: Well, we know what gerrymandering is. Okay? Gerrymandering was done in the State, I can show you by one guy's mailbox, to exclude his neighbors so he wouldn't have to worry about it. I mean... well, that's... as you say if it's not challenged... You know, I guess I got to ask why you didn't in the so-called coastal zone, and instead of stopping at Dixie Highway, take it up to Coral Way. Mr. Whittington: It did. It did. Let me... Commissioner Plummer: No, I'm not looking at that on my maps, unless you have a different map. Mayor Carollo: Some maps, it did. Mr. Whittington: I'll get you a map that shows that. Commissioner Plummer: And what did that... Did that give a percentage change? I'm sure it did, it had to. Mr. Whittington: This is the latest map of the six districts. This is 6-2C. The... Commissioner Plummer: And where are the numbers on 6-20 The one... Mr. Whittington: They are the second page of your packet. Commissioner Plummer: It still doesn't give you an Anglo percentage. 10 June 28, 1997 Ui Mr. Whittington: Majority, you're saying. Commissioner Plummer: No. Mr. Whittington: No, sir. It would be... It's extremely difficult, as I said, from this map to create a district that brings in enough of the non -Hispanic whites to create. Not that we're trying to, but just you would have to cover more territory. Commissioner Plummer: My question, then, would have to be... well... Can I... Let me go down. I guess, really, what my question is, look, if you came here and you came over more this way on Coral Way, would that not change the numbers? Predicated upon your color code here. Mr. Whittington: Commissioner, if you did that, you would include a sizeable population here. Once you go over sixty thousand people... Commissioner Plummer: No, no, excuse me. You know you draw these things gerrymander. Take this out of the coastal zone and bring it down here. Mr. Whittington: Right. That's all I was saying. Sure. Commissioner Plummer: Where's the balance? What would you do if you brought... Here's Coral Way, is that it? And you came out this way, and then you took and cut this off at the top and added it, what does that do to the numbers? Mr. Whittington: The numbers have to stay the same. Commissioner Gort: David, you have one that does that. Commissioner Plummer: What... excuse me, percent... what does it do percentage -wise? Commissioner Gort: David, 6-1 will do that. Mr. Whittington: 6-1's right here. That was where I was headed before we went on. Here's 6-1. This extends further up into Coral Way, just as you said. This is plan 6-1. This is a plan that we're considering, it is not one of the two recommended plans from the Blue Ribbon Committee, but, of course, it was done. It can be considered. Commissioner Gort: The Blue Ribbon Committee felt that there was not enough representation for the Anglo in that district. Mr. Whittington: This diminishes... This diminishes... Commissioner Gort: No, this one here, where... the one you did... David... Commissioner Plummer: That's what I'm asking. Does it make a difference? Commissioner Hernandez: Yeah, it makes it a lot worse for you. Commissioner Gort: Makes it worse. Commissioner Plummer: Worse? Mr. Whittington: Yes, sir. 0 11 June 28, 1997 Commissioner Hernandez: It makes it lot better for me, though. Commissioner Plummer: It's not worse for me. It's worse for... Commissioner Gort: For the... for the... Commissioner Hernandez: Of course, of course. But I'm just telling you it's lot. There's a lot less Anglos like that. Commissioner Plummer: Well, I was only looking at this other map, which showed the dark brown. Mr. Whittington: What you lose, you gain the beige, but you lose the green up here. Commissioner Gort: Once again guys, I thank you very much for giving me this job. It has been very easy, as you see. Commissioner Hernandez: You know, I had a... Quinn, I have a question. I think the answer's yes, but I'd like to ask you anyway, and it's really a little food for thought for all of us. I was looking originally at 6-213 and 6-2C, which is pretty much, I think the same, and when you look at the coastal district, District #3, I was thinking about when you look at it, that is the, I would say the strongest tax base part of the City of Miami. You have Coconut Grove, you have Brickell, you have downtown, and then you have the Northeast. And I was thinking a couple days ago, and it's really an economic concern, knowing that the residents of Coconut Grove and some people there started the whole movement of.., the abolishment movement of the City of Miami, what if we would go to this 6-2C plan or 6-213 and District 3 residents would decide to secede from the City of Miami? That is the strongest tax base... I think the tax base of the City of Miami is in District 3. We could not survive if that could happen. My question is, is there a possibility that once we go into these districts, the people from District 3 decide, let's split from the City of Miami, let's become our own municipality. What would happen then? A. Quinn Jones, III, Esq. (City Attorney): Well, I think that the effect of that would be that still you have certain Charter provisions that they would still be entitled to travel under, if they wanted to secede. And I think right now we'd only be speculating as to what effect it would have, but certainly knowing that that is the vast area from which the City obtains its tax base, I think you could fairly assume that if they were successful in doing that what the effect of it would be. I don't know what it would do in terms of... For instance, if we had this district and plan in place, I don't know what it would do in terms of diluting the voting strength or whatever, but I think at this point, Commissioner, it would be speculative as to how it would be. But to try to answer your question, what I'm saying, I think that the same Charter provisions that are in effect now, which would permit secession or whatever else, would still be in place, irrespective of the fact that, you know, we go with this particular plan. Commissioner Hernandez: So any district could basically decide to secede. They could take the normal process... Commissioner Plummer: District? Commissioner Hernandez: Yeah, district 3, J.L. Mr. Jones: I think yeah, because that's essentially what you have now, even though it's not a drawn map such as a district, but you have a segment of the community, which basically wishes to disassociate itself with the City of Miami. So I think that what you... 12 June 28, 1997 0 d­� Commissioner Plummer: I guess it must be legal because Coconut Grove tried to do it. Mr. Jones: Yeah. Commissioner Plummer: ...and they're a part of the City, so... Mr. Jones: But that's what I'm saying, the same Charter... Commissioner Plummer: Obviously, it could be done. They can cut their own boundary. Commissioner Hernandez: And income -speaking, District 3 would be probably the richest of the districts, I would assume, is that right? Commissioner Gort: Excuse me, let me ask you a question. My understanding is, just because we have districts, we just would have representatives from district, but the government would not change at all. We all have to sit here, we have to make decisions together. Mr. Jones: Yeah. Commissioner Gort: At the same time, my understanding is, if any particular neighborhood wants to secede from the City, it's a city-wide vote that makes that decision. Mr. Jones: Yeah, that's correct. Commissioner Plummer: Yeah. Mr. Jones: That's why I say the same Charter provisions would still be in effect, the same requirements. Mr. Whittington: And just as a point of information, Commissioner, the downtown, CBD (Central Business District) area, with the large commercial tax base, is actually in District 2. So, you would not lose that under that case, hypothetical case. Commissioner Plummer: Unless they decide to secede. Mr. Whittington: Certainly. Commissioner Regalado: Did we took exactly the 1990 Census figures or did we consult with the Census to see a revised projection? Mr. Whittington: No. You have to use the 1990 Census. The type of count, head count, is only done every ten years. And those are the only statistics that are allowable for the plan. Commissioner Regalado: And yet, the Census Bureau and INS (Immigration and Naturalization Services) said that, for instance in 1994, four out of five Cubans admitted in Florida chose Miami as their site to settle. We need to remember that in 1994, we had what they call the rafters crisis, which brought thirty-five thousand people to the City of Miami. Then we... It's estimated that we have three hundred and fifty thousand illegal immigrants in Florida. And of those, INS believes that more than twenty thousand are within the City limits. Would that affect, legally, the possibility of a challenge in court in terms of population? Mr. Whittington: I'm certainly not equipped to answer that question from a legal standpoint. From a demographic standpoint, let me state something. Then if someone would like to follow 13 June 28, 1997 up with the legality of it... Demographically, the State of Florida, at their population center at the University of Florida, currently estimates our population at between five and ten percent more than what we had in 1990. The City has traditionally challenged that. We feel it's closer to maybe ten to twenty percent more. But we're talking about that kind of change, is what's been discussed. So, we're not talking about fifty thousand people more, or something like that. We're talking in the neighborhood of ten or twenty thousand more, according to the demographic studies. As far as what's legal, I can't answer anything from a legal standpoint. Commissioner Regalado: The thing is that twenty thousand people will impact the socioeconomic area because we know that, for instance, illegal immigrants or recent arrivals do not have the same economic possibilities than other people that have settled for many years. Mr. Whittington: Again, I can only answer from a demographic standpoint. I know right now it's been in the recent news the year 2000 census, the Census Bureau may be using sampling techniques to try and better estimate people that were not counted in 1990 Census. So the year 2000 census may give us better numbers of legal and/or illegal immigrants and at that point, possibly there could be a revision to this, if necessary. I don't know from a legal... Commissioner Regalado: You mean the revision of the district? Mr. Whittington: I don't know from a legal standpoint. From a demographic standpoint, you would have new numbers, possibly better numbers, more to what we feel's the reality of the City with our immigrants, since that is being strongly considered for the first time by the Census Bureau. Commissioner Regalado: So what you're saying is then in the year 2000, districts can change. Mr. Whittington: Demographically, you would have information to change the districts. Legally, I don't know... Commissioner Plummer: Don't hold your breath. Mr. Whittington: ...what the procedure would be. Commissioner Gort: My understanding, Commissioners, in all the meetings, we had the attorneys making sure that every step that we did, every decision we made was in accordance to the legal plans. If you all want to put your questions together, we can get Professor Lichtman on the phone and he can answer a lot of those questions about how... Commissioner Plummer: I thought he was going to be today. Commissioner Gort: No, he'll be here Tuesday. But I think you might want to have some of the answers now, in case you guys want to make some suggestions. Mayor Carollo: What I would suggest is that each of us would put any questions down that we have, so that we could get it to him as quickly as possible, before he gets here. This way we can proceed a lot quicker in this. Commissioner Plummer: Well, I hope Mr. Weeks is making a note of all of the questions that are being asked by each Commissioner, and that should suffice for what is necessary for him on Tuesday. Mayor Carollo: Still, I would again like to ask each of Commissioner that before this meeting ends, you go to Mr. Weeks or state it publicly, again either way, and state all the questions that 14 June 28, 1997 4 you want this gentleman to answer for us. So it could be sent to him maybe this afternoon, and he could begin having the answers for us, so we could proceed quicker on Tuesday, when he arrives. Commissioner Plummer: I have two more questions. The first one is, there was talk of districts and at large. I have not seen a single schematic that says reality. Is there a reason for that? Mr. Whittington: I'm not sure I understand the question, Commissioner. Let me.. Commissioner Plummer: Well, the question is that I heard once of a 4-2, four districts, two at large, and a mayor. Mr. Whittington: Okay. I do understand the question, then. Commissioner Plummer: Was it that difficult? Mr. Whittington: No, sir. The two plans I have up on the easel now are what were referred to by the experts as cluster districts. Were you to have a four district plan or a six district plan, these would be additional Commissioners, additional districts. You would overlay, over the four or the existing six districts to give you even more districts. So in this three -cluster district, you would have more or less at large commissioner from a large district, of which you would already have possibly four or six districts there. You would just have another three commissioners representing larger districts, than the underlying four or six. Commissioner Plummer: To me at large means city-wide. Commissioner Regalado: Of course. Mr. Whittington: Okay. In that case, that's different from what was prepared by the consultants. The consultants were asked to prepare this. Commissioner Plummer: To me, that's what we operate under today. And to me, one of the best advantages there, it has a tendency to draw away from what we refer to as ward politics, because not just the district, but he would have others that would be involved in the district as well. The other question that I have is in relation to staggered terms. What was the recommendation of the committee on that? Commissioner Gort: Staggered terms. Commissioner Plummer: They're saying to have staggered terms. And how would they do that? Commissioner Gort: That's the decision we have to take. Mayor Carollo: They recommended, I believe, from what I heard there, staggered terms. But after listening to you, that might change your mind, I don't know. Commissioner Plummer: That could be. Commissioner Hernandez: I mean, because the County has staggered terms, but they all had to run at the same time. Some ran for two years, some ran for four years. And that's how they accomplished the staggered terms. Commissioner Plummer: No, the legislature did it different, odd and even. 15 June 28, 1997 Mr. Whittington: Right. Commissioner Plummer: The final question. Has the City determined, on any one of the plans that they've come up with, the cost factor involved? Commissioner Gort: No. My understanding is the administration is working on that, what each additional commissioner will cost. At the same time, I think the commissioner's budget, since you'll be going to districts, will probably be reduced from what the present budget is today. So that's something the Manager is working on. My understanding is that he's going to come up with some recommendation. At the same time, we need to discuss with the Election Department, because in some of the districts, like it was stated before, some of the precincts are split and... Walter, I was under the impression they were going to be here today. Walter Foeman (City Clerk): No, Mr. Leahy is out of town, he will be here on Tuesday. Commissioner Gort: On Tuesday, okay. Commissioner Plummer: Willie, you have more than just the commissioner's budget. I mean, I see a tremendous impact on the first year of any one of these plans. After the first year, it would be greatly reduced. I mean just changing the configuration of this table, the configuration of City Hall and all of the offices and the printing and all of that, I think all of that needs to be taken into consideration as a cost factor. Mayor Carollo: Yeah, a couple thousand dollars. Commissioner Plummer: Yeah. Right. Mayor Carollo: In fact, if we would all be willing to do without our phones up here, that would probably save over a hundred dollars a month and that might pay for half of it for the year. Commissioner Plummer: Well, I like the way you do business. Commissioner Hernandez: Was there a recommendation made as to residency requirements? Mayor Carollo: Yes, there was. Commissioner Hernandez: What was that? Commissioner Gort: The person could move six months afterwards, but they have to be City of Miami residents before they can exercise that. I think that was said in the legislation that the County... Commissioner Plummer: They had what? Commissioner Gort: ...and the school system. You have to be a resident of the City of Miami, first. Then you can elect to run in any district you want. If you get elected, you can move within that district, after six months. You have six months to move into the district. I Commissioner Plummer: Okay. I hear what you're recommending. I think the court test was that you had to be living in the City as a district... Commissioner Gort: Yeah. Commissioner Plummer: ...the day you took the office, which you assume and won. 16 June 28, 1997 Commissioner Gort: No, my understanding, the School Board, the way it was done, you ran for a district. If you got elected, you had six months to move into that district. Commissioner Plummer: Yes, we've been reading all about that. It's like others in this town who run for office, they should live in a mobile home. Mayor Carollo: I hear some do. Commissioner Gort: You guys want, I can get Professor Lichtman on the phone now, so you can ask him all the questions, a lot of your questions could be answered. So at that same time, he was telling me that whenever you move a line, that it takes X-amount of individuals from a district, it's got to be supplied from some other district. Commissioner Plummer: Well, it just shoves it around. Let me... As far as the ballot itself is concerned, which will be surrendered for the public to vote upon, will that be a ballot of "yes" or "no" or will it be a ballot "A" or "B"? How... Commissioner Gort: J.L., that's up to us. No recommendation was made on that. Commissioner Plummer: Well no, I'm asking, I guess the City Attorney, of the wording of how... In other words, do you put in the ballot... I remember him saying that each segment has seventy-five words or less. Now, is it possible, for example, that we can put in there that you have the four plus two at large? Is it "A" or do you answer it "yes" or "no"? I mean I don't know how that's done and that's what I think I need to know. Mayor Carollo: Can you answer that? Mr. Jones: Well, I think what I mentioned to you at the meeting the other day was that what I envision is probably a series of separate questions. Depending on what you decide, in terms of the configuration, there are many provisions in the present... many present Charter provisions that impact or specify as to how our election process is to take place that will be impacted and will have to be changed. So, depending on what you decide will depend on how the questions are worded. But I can tell you, it'll probably be more than one... there are going to have to be several series questions. Some may be as simple as a "yes" or "no", I don't know yet. It'll depend on what you decide that you want to do with the districting process. Commissioner Plummer: Hey, you know, I don't know. I mean that's what we've got to understand is how the ballot... I think that's the most important criteria, because you know how those are played with. I mean if they didn't play with ballots, we wouldn't have Metro today. You know, you voted "no" to have "yes" and "yes" to vote "no" and we wouldn't have the Arena downtown, vote "yes" to vote "no", so it's an important way... As important as it is to go with the demographics, it's just as important the ballot question has to be able to be understood by the people who are voting, and not trickery, which has been done in many, many cases. Mr. Jones: I looked at the original language that was proposed in the Metro plan and it was as simple as, you know, shall there be four district, you know, City Commission, it was a very simplistic question and it'll be up to you to decide how specific you want to be. I can only tell you that the general trend, or the general holdings of the courts are that you be as specific so as to give the voters as much information as possible within the constraints of the word limitations. Commissioner Plummer: Quinn, if we up here today are trying to go through a workshop to better understand with a simple ballot question, how are the electorate going to understand how what they vote on is going to affect them? I mean, you know, I'm hearing answers here today 17 0 June 28, 1997 that I had no idea that there was an answer, such as you got to worry about how much a person makes to take into consideration to create a district. Now, how is the general public, who have to do the voting, going to understand to me is why the ballot question is so important. Can the City Commission, if we sd deem it necessary, can we put one question ballot... one question on the ballot of having four districts and two at large? I mean, can that be a question and you say "yes" or "no"? I don't know, that's why I'm asking the question. Mr. Jones: Well, yeah. Again, Commissioner, it'll depend on what you decide. You know, that was the whole purpose of having the public hearings, As sad as it is to say, that the turn -outs have been pretty dismal, but, you know, that's why we scheduled... the Commission scheduled public hearings in order that... Commissioner Plummer: Let me ask it a different way. Mr. Jones: Yeah. Commissioner Plummer: There's seven plans? Is that what it is, Willie? Commissioner Gort: Yeah. Commissioner Plummer: Okay. Can you put all seven plans on the ballot and say "yes" or "no" on each one, and then the one that gets the most "yes"... Mr. Jones: Well, I don't think... Commissioner Plummer: I mean, I don't understand. Mr. Jones: Well, I don't think that's feasible. That's why that the... that's why this Commission chose a panel... a committee, to make a recommendation to you as to what is most feasible and will withstand legal challenge. And that's what they've done to you thus far is to present two alternatives which they deem to be the most legally sufficient, that will withstand legal challenge. Commissioner Regalado: Quinn, the question of executive mayor, of course, would have to be separate from the district question. Suppose that Miami voters decide not to approve districts, but just to approve an executive mayor. So what would happen? Mr. Jones: Well, that's a good question. I mean... You know, again Commissioner, what I'm saying to you, when we... when you finally meet on Tuesday and what I envision again is having a separate meeting, so that you can vote on exactly what the ballot language is. In order for me to... in order for us to draft the language, we have to know exactly what it is you want and have to take into consideration, in terms of ballot language, to be able to envision a scenario where the voters would perhaps reject if it were your decision to put strong mayor on, reject that, and what the consequence would be if they rejected that and approved districts. So I guess the answer to your question is that once I have a definite fix on where you want to go, I can sit down... we can sit down and basically look, you know, look at the effect of one as opposed to the other and craft the language such that there wouldn't be a problem or will not cause a problem. Commissioner Regalado: Wait a minute. I'm not talking about the wording, I'm talking as a possible scenario. What would be the legal situation of the reforms if the districts were to be voted down by the people and an executive mayor be approved? Would that mean that an executive mayor will be in place and the rest of the Commission will stay as it is? Mr. Jones: Well, I think each of the plans that have been presented to you... Again, the district plan would have as a component the strong mayor as part of that plan. So I think that, again, it 18 June 28, 1997 0 depends on what you decide. I mean if the language is crafted such that the strong mayor is a element of that district plan, you must accept the whole plan or not accept the plan, minus the strong mayor component, then that's, you know, something that I can't really answer what the effect that would be. Commissioner Regalado: So what you're saying is that both issues can be voted on the same wording? Mr. Jones: It's possible, yeah. Yeah, it's possible. Again, it decides on... depends on what... how you want to configure it. Commissioner Gort: I got Professor Lichtman. We were able to get ahold of him. Any questions you want to ask in particular? Can you hear us? Can you hear us? Dr. Lichtman (on speakerphone): I can hear you fine. Commissioner Gort: Okay. You're in a speaker and we're having a workshop here with all the Commissioners at the Chamber now. Questions? There was a question by... Can you give us the criteria and guidelines you utilized to... and the reason in behind it in the selection of the districts? Dr. Lichtman: Yes. Criteria number one, of course, is the criteria that anyone must follow, and that, of course, is one person, one vote. Now that's not an absolute criteria, that is you don't have to have exactly even population, particularly when you're dealing as we are here with a stated local, or local as opposed to a congressional plan. And the basic rule of thumb is that you're safe if your differences are within five percent over the average, which is just under sixty thousand, or five percent under, for a total difference in population of plus and minus five, an overall ten percent. It doesn't mean you absolutely can't go above ten percent, but you are safe, according to guidelines if you stay within that ten percent. Second criteria, of course, was to whatever extent possible, try to make plans fit various neighborhoods within the City of Miami. Now you can't do that perfectly, because lines on the map do not necessarily map people. The neighborhoods generally are, except for a couple... two of them, three, the span is much smaller than what you need even within a six district plan. And you can have large areas, small numbers of people and small areas with very large numbers of people. So to whatever extent we could, we tried roughly to conform with the neighborhood boundaries facing one district, for example, as a coastal district, which would have the Grove in it, the upper east side, most of downtown; another district based on Little Haiti with most of Overtown another district... the six district plan, I'm talking about, based on Model City, another one based on Flagami, another one based on Coral Way and another one based on Havana and a similar, but of course larger configuration for the four district plan. Then to an extent possible, we also tried to conform to socioeconomic characteristics. We also looked at the plans finally, although we did not compute this when we drew the plans initially, in terms of their ethnic and racial composition, because we still have to conform to Section 2 of the Voting Rights Act, and also the different groups within the City who are interested in the opportunity the plan created. Commissioner Plummer: Is it legal or illegal, in your estimation, to have districts and at large seats? Dr. Lichtman: It is not per say illegal to have district and at large seats. There are certainly mixed plans. In fact, my own home county, Montgomery County, Maryland, have a mixed plan of single member and at large seats. However, at large seats can, under some circumstances, raise voting rights risks if they result in diluting the opportunities of protected groups within the city. 19 June 28, 1997 Commissioner Gort: Professor, another that was asked is why the difference... why do you use blocks instead of Census tract? Mr. Litchman: Census tracts are too large. Precincts are too large, even. Census tracts are very large blocks. All the units in which plans are normally drawn because they represent fairly small, geographical districts and make it much easier to meet the competing criteria of on the one hand staying within one person, one vote, and on the other hand, trying to conform as closely as you possibly can to the neighborhoods within the city. Commissioner Hernandez: Why did we use... When we reapportioned the State of Florida, and Commissioner Plummer alleged to that, the Census tract instead of the block form of reapportionment? Dr. Lichtman: I'm sorry, Commissioner Gort can you repeat that? I couldn't hear that. Commissioner Gort: The reason is why the... that method, when the legislation reapportioned, they used the tract. Dr. Lichtman: That may well be so. I'm sure the legislative districts are vastly larger than the districts within the city which in a fixed district plan are only... Commissioner Plummer: No, they're not larger. Dr. Lichtman: ...sixty thousand persons. Commissioner Plummer: Is this normally put on a ballot to accept or reject in total or is it normally put on a ballot as a multiple question ballot? Dr. Lichtman: You mean with various options to the voters? Commissioner Plummer: Yeah, in other words, do you put... You're familiar, I'm sure, with these numbers... Do you put 6-2C, vote "yes" or "no", 4-2, "yes" or "no", is that how it's normally put on a ballot? Do you have... Dr. Lichtman: Normally, it's put on the ballot you offer the voters a single question. The problem with offering multiple questions is you're not likely to have any passed because they could vote for one, they could vote for the other, or they could vote for obviously none of the above. Commissioner Plummer: So is the question as simple as, do you want districts or your don't, or you just offer one district plan, "yes" or "no" . Dr. Lichtman: You can do either. Commissioner Plummer: What do you do? Dr. Lichtman: You offer voters the option to go to district and then the Commission can then create the districts or you could offer voters a more specific alternative. But you're certainly not required to offer the voters a specific map, necessarily. Commissioner Plummer: But in other words, what you're saying is you could go with a simple question, do you want districts, "yes" or "no"... Dr. Lichtman: Absolutely. 0 20 June 28, 1997 Commissioner Plummer: ...as the total question on the ballot? Dr. Lichtman: You could go with that on the ballot, that's right. I'm not a laywer, now mind you. So I'm giving you my best estimation, based on my experience. But you would certainly want to consult with a lawyer, particularly a lawyer familiar with law in your state. Commissioner Plummer: Well, I'm drawing on your background of history of what you've... Dr. Lichtman: Exactly. Commissioner Plummer: ... done in the past. Dr. Lichtman: I just want to not mislead you, you know, make it clear that I'm not giving you legal advice. Commissioner Plummer: Then what happens? Commissioner Gort: Any other questions? Professor Lichtman, for the benefit of the people that are here and the Commissioners, once again, can you give us your background and experience, and also Dr. Wilson's? Dr. Lichtman: Yes, I am a professor of history at American University, formerly an associate dean of the College of Arts and Sciences, currently Chairman of the Department of History at American University, received my PhD from Harvard University in 1973. My specialty is political history and quantitative analysis, mathimatical analysis of voting. I have been an expert witness and consultant in more than sixty voting rights and redistricting cases, including the DeGrandy case, and many other cases in Florida. I also served as redistricting advisor to the Dade County government, and I've also written extensively in the field of political history, quantitative methods in voting rights. Commissioner Gort: Can you give us little background on Dr. Wilson, experience and... Dr. Lichtman: Dr. Wilson is a political scientist, rather than an historian. He's also been involved in many voting rights cases, as well. He's at the Political Science Department at Norfolk State University, and he's the one, because he has the center capable of doing this, he's the one who actually drew the specific lines, produced the maps and produced the statistics at his center at Norfolk State. Commissioner Gort: And he has previous experience in Dade County, am I correct? Dr. Lichtman: I'm not certain, but I believe that is correct. Commissioner Gort: And the school system? Dr. Lichtman: Yes. Commissioner Gort: There's another question. Commissioner Hernandez: Professor? Dr. Lichtman: Yes. Commissioner Hernandez: I heard what you've been saying in reference to the block versus the Census tract, and I'm not sure... To tell you the truth, I'm not very convinced with your opinion, 21 June 28, 1997 0 � � i��fy� •J�i1: i, based on what I'm looking at, the maps that have been recommended to us, you're saying that when you go to block, you can, I guess guarantee more common interests within the districts, you can protect the different neighborhoods of the City of Miami, but at the same time in this recommendation that's been put before us, and I'm talking about the 6-213 and the 6-2C, I notice that we are not protecting the common interests of this community, specifically in District 1 and 2, where we disenfranchise almost thirty-five thousand Hispanics. And then in comparison, when you look at the Hispanic districts, four, five and six, specifically four and five, there is no... there's almost no African -American in that district and, therefore, my point is that we are not only disenfranchising a large amount of Hispanic voters, I don't see the common interests in those thirty-five thousand that are stuck now in a one and two district, which is to represented by an African -American and... Dr. Lichtman: The problem we get is shear population. The African -American communities, by themselves, do not have anywhere near enough population to create a district. You're also dealing with a city that is sixty-five percent Hispanic. Therefore, just by the shear mathematics of it, if you are going to create a district based on Little Haiti and a district based on Model City, presuming you preserve the coastal community, then the only way in which those districts can be created is to move down into the south. And as a result, you do have some Hispanics, and that's inevitable, unless you were to change the coastal district drastically... Commissioner Hernandez: I undestand what you're saying, but that's at least the biggest concern and the biggest problem I have and that's why I think there's no way we can sell this to the overall population of the City of Miami, because the majority is being sacrificed here. The sixty-five in total population is getting hit with... and is being prejudiced at the benefit of another ethnic group. Dr. Lichtman: You've got to create fairly heavily Hispanic districts because of the citizenship issue, which was just the subject of an opinion by the ruling court of appeal that covers Florida. And while Hispanics, indeed, are sixty-five percent of the population, they're only a shade over fifty percent or so of the citizen population. So to create Hispanic districts, they're got to be pretty substantially Hispanic in order to overcome the citizenship issue. Commissioner Gort: I think he's saying the opposite. What you're saying is, you've taken some of the Hispanic population and put into the Model City, mainly in Little Haiti. Dr. Lichtman: I understand that. I'm just commenting that you have three Hispanic districts, so Hispanics you have more districts than any other group and conceivably there is some competition in District 3, plus you would have to have, as I understand it as the committee recommended it, an at large component to the six district plan, which in a sixty-five percent city is likewise going to be Hispanic, whether it's a strong mayor that votes or super strong mayor that votes and vetos and four out seven seats are likely to be seats that represent preferences of Hispanics. The only alternative would be to drastically refigure the map to essentially make what is now a coastal district, divide it up and make that into an additional Hispanic district, in which case you'd have five to seven Hispanic, two black and probably no Anglo. Commissioner Plummer: Yeah. Commissioner Hernandez: Are you saying that... did I hear you... maybe I misunderstood... that even though the City of Miami's comprised in total population of sixty-five percent Hispanic, that the total registered Hispanic is only fifty percent? Dr. Lichtman: No. I said although the City is sixty-five percent Hispanic in overall population, the citizen population is substantially lower than that. It's still a majority, but only a small majority. 22 1 June 28, 1997 Commissioner Hernandez: That's not correct. That's not... Commissioner Regalado: But what... Commissioner Hernandez: Hold on, that's not correct. Commissioner Regalado: It's not. Commissioner Hernandez: That is not correct at all. He's saying that... Commissioner Gort: What he's saying is, although there's sixty-five percent Hispanic population, not all sixty-five percent is American citizens. Commissioner Hernandez: Are citizens, but he's saying it's only slight over fifty percent. That's not correct. Commissioner Gort: It's a little larger than that. Commissioner Hernandez: Because if you look at the... Remember... Dr. Lichtman: Might be fifty-five, something in that vicinity, fifty-six. Commissioner Hernandez: It's a little even... it's even higher, because I know that you're looking at Census figures. I, for example, who was born here, I was explaining to Commissioner Plummer, am considered a Hispanic... of Hispanic dissent in the Census. Now when you look at the electoral process, I am seen as a U.S. Cuban or an Anglo. So when you take away those U.S. Cuban or U.S. Hispanics from the percentage of voters down here who are citizens, it drastically increases the Hispanic population, voter population. Dr. Lichtman: We took that into account in doing our registered voter counts. In other words, when we looked at registered voters in these districts... Dr. Wilson, of course, did the computations... he took into account both Hispanics of birth abroad and Hispanics of birth here, and you still get very substantial reductions in voting population as compared to overall population. Commissioner Regalado: But are you taking the voting population from the 1990 Census? Dr. Lichtman: We took registered voter populations from recent... they're much more recent than 1990 Census. They would be '96 or'97 figures of registered voters. Mayor Carollo: November, '96, what I see here, of registered voters. Commissioner Plummer: Yep, the last election. Mayor Carollo: Yeah. The question that I have is, you keep saying that the overall non -citizen and citizen population of the City of Miami is over sixty-five percent Hispanic. From what Census are you getting those figures from? Dr. Lichtman: The only Census we have at this point is 1990. Mayor Carollo: And 1990 indicates that? Dr. Lichtman: All the population figures you see... 23 June 28, 1997 Commissioner Plummer: That's the latest. Dr. Lichtman: ...as we must, according to court decisions, are based upon the most recent U.S. Census. Mayor Carollo: Okay now, you're telling me that the 1990 Census shows over sixty-five percent overall Hispanic population in the City of Miami? Dr. Lichtman: I can compute it for you exactly, hang on. Commissioner Plummer: Sixty-five, twenty-five, eleven. Dr. Lichtman: Hang on a moment. You want total population or voting age population? Mayor Carollo: Total population, let's go with that now, the breakdown of the total population. Hispanic, non -Hispanic black, non -Hispanic white. Dr. Lichtman: You want the overall Hispanic population? Mayor Carollo: Right. And this, I guess, will be 1990 Census information. Dr. Lichtman: That is absolutely right. Sixty-three percent. Mayor Carollo: What's that? Dr. Lichtman: Sixty-three percent, sixty-two point five. Mayor Carollo: Sixty-two point five percent, okay. And if you'd give me the black, non - Hispanic black and non -Hispanic white. Dr. Lichtman: Blacks, twenty-five percent. Commissioner Plummer: No, total population on the Census. Mayor Carollo: Twenty-four point six, does that sound right or not? Dr. Lichtman: Then the white would be the remainder, twelve percent. Mayor Carollo: Yeah, twelve point one, approxmately, sir. Dr. Lichtman: Yeah. Mayor Carollo: Okay. The Hispanic is a little higher than I thought that it was. Dr. Lichtman: Pardon me? Mayor Carollo: The Hispanic was a little higher than I thought it was. Commissioner Plummer: Tell me why actual... actual registered voters are not taken into consideration. When I look here, you're talking about roughly only twenty percent of our population, for round numbers, are registered voters. Dr. Lichtman: Twenty-five percent of your total population? 24 June 28, 1997 Commissioner Plummer: Yes. Why... Dr. Lichtman: That's quite likely. Commissioner Plummer: Well, okay. Well, why... Dr. Lichtman: I don't have those figures in front of me, but that's certainly possible for two reasons. One, obviously only those of voting age can register and two, you do have a substantial non -citizen... Commissioner Plummer: I'm not talking about the ones who can register, I'm saying those who are registered. Was that in any way taken into consideration, that only... Dr. Lichtman: I have, according to my figures, a hundred and... Commissioner Plummer: Hundred and three... Dr. Lichtman: ...a little under a hundred and ten thousand registered voters. Commissioner Plummer: Okay. That's about right. Dr. Lichtman: It's more like... it's more like... it's a little over... it's more than a quarter. It's more like thirty percent. Commissioner Plummer: All right. Well even that. But my question is, was that taken into consideration in drawing the districts? Dr. Lichtman: We did not, in drawing these districts, get into any voting statistics of any kind. As 1 said, we drew them based, as much as we can on the neighborhoods, we drew them based on socioeconomics on one person, one vote. We then looked at populations and then Dr. Wilson looked at registered voters statistics, but they were not... neither racial statistics or racial statistics by registered voter were a basis for drawing the districts themselves. Commissioner Hernandez: Professor, so the bottom line is, in order to fix the disenfranchising of those Hispanics that are in District 1 and 2, you're saying we'd have to drastically redraw the coastal district? Dr. Lichtman: Yes. At this point if you look at the plans, the six district plan that we submitted, those districts, one and two, the black majority districts, are already substantially under populated. That is, their populations are around fifty-seven thousand, whereas the exact one person, one vote numbers are a little under sixty thousand. You cannot take out thirty-five thousand people from those two districts who are Hispanic and have anything remotely close to our Constitutional sized African -American... Commissioner Plummer: Oops, oops, you cut him off. Commissioner Gort: What was that, again? Dr. Lichtman: What I said was, those districts, even as constituted, even coming south and west to pick up some Hispanic population, which is inevitable because there's nowhere else for them to go, even so, they are still under populated. They're within the Constitutional limits... 25 June 28, 1997 Commissioner Hernandez: Let me ask you this, Professor, then. In my conclusion from what you're saying is that then the African -American community doesn't have enough population to have two districts. Dr. Lichtman: Well, not to have two districts that are a hundred percent African -American, of course not. But no one's contemplating that. They are substantial enough to be substantial majorities in two districts... Commissioner Hernandez: Yeah... Dr. Lichtman: ...fifty percent or more. Commissioner Hernandez: My whole thing is, I'm not requesting a hundred percent, that the district be a hundred percent African -American, of course not. But it seems to me that we're doing that when it comes to the Hispanic districts, but we're not doing it when it gets to the African -American district, and that's when the disenfranchising exists. So... Dr. Lichtman: Again, you have a choice here. You've got six districts and an at large. Assuming the districts are African -American and assuming the mayor would most likely represent the majority of population, which is also a majority of registered voters, that would be two of seven seats in which an African -American would have an excellent opportunity to elect candidates of their choice. That's twenty-eight point six percent of the seats. African - Americans are twenty-five percent of the population. Were you to change the plan so that you had one African -American seat, which can be done conceivably... you know if you just drew... it would be ninety percent African -American if you just drew a six seat plan, including both Little Haiti and Model City and Overtown. That would be one out of seven or fourteen percent for a group that's twenty-five percent of the population. Hispanics, presumably, would have an excellent opportunity to elect four out of seven, which is fifty-seven percent, and we saw Hispanics was sixty-two percent of the City. And there's one district likely to go Anglo, that would be, you know, a more competitive district. That would be one out of seven, or fourteen percent, and Anglos are twelve... little over twelve percent of the population. So if you wanted to have as a rule of thumb, once you got to looking at the groups' rough proportionality, the three, two, one plan with an at large is as close as you can get. Commissioner Hernandez: Did you ever consider a five district plan? Dr. Lichtman: No, we were not instructed to. We certainly could if we were instructed to. Commissioner Hernandez: It looks to me that... I don't know, maybe that's the solution, not six or seven, but five with the mayor. That would be five plus the mayor. Dr. Lichtman: You can have five plus a mayor who doesn't vote on the Commission, if that would make an even number, but has veto powers. You certainly could do that. We can construct any number of district plans that you instruct us to construct. The only reason we didn't do a five was that the Blue Ribbon Committee did not so instruct us. Commissioner Plummer: Well, how about if we, the Commission, asked you to consider it and come, if you can, on Tuesday? Dr. Lichtman: I'm sorry. Commissioner Gort, could you repeat that? I didn't hear that. Commissioner Plummer: How about if we, the Commission, asked you to do it and try to come to us with a demonstration on Tuesday, when we're meeting again? 26 June 28, 1997 Dr. Lichtman: We would endeavor to get one done by Tuesday. I think we... 7:00 a.m.? I think we can do it. It would be quite a push on Monday, but... Commissioner Plummer: No, Tuesday. We're meeting Tuesday, 7:00. Dr. Lichtman: ...I think we could come up with a five district plan... Commissioner Plummer: You know, if you go by... Dr. Lichtman: ...because it would just be a modification of... Commissioner Plummer: If you go by this... Dr. Lichtman: ...the four and the six. We could do it, I think. I hate to speak for Dr. Wilson, since he... his center actually draw the lines... you know, I've been advising them how to do it, but I'm certain we could do it by end of day on Monday. Commissioner Plummer: All right. If you go according to the registered voters, okay, and you go with a 4-1 plan, you got the plan, under registered voters, not any Census or anything... Commissioner Hernandez: That's not legal. Commissioner Plummer: Well, you say it's not legal, but it comes as close to the full representation of this community as you could have, by having two Hispanics, one black and one Anglo. Commissioner Hernandez: On a what, four... Dr. Lichtman: I'm not sure you can get an Anglo under the four plan. Commissioner Plummer: Well, that's right there. Oh, well. Commissioner Hernandez: I'd like to see if it's possible, a five district plan just to see... Commissioner Plummer: He said he could have it by Tuesday. Commissioner Hernandez: ...okay? Mayor Carollo: He says he'll do his very best, which I surely hope he could do it. Commissioner Hernandez: Professor, can it be done... Dr. Lichtman: We've come up with everything you've instructed us so far, and I'm confident, even under time pressure, we could come up with a five district plan. Commissioner Hernandez: Can it be done... can you do... I don't know if you have enough time... the four, five and six district plan by Census tract, instead of by block? Dr. Lichtman: I think that would be extremely difficult, since Census tracts are so large. I mean we could do it, I mean anything is possible, but that would, you know, pose real difficulties on one person, one vote and shaping the lines, but... I'm not sure we could do both... Commissioner Hernandez: I'm only one vote... 27 June 28, 1997 j Dr. Lichtman: ...by Monday morning and a five district plan. I think that's asking Ruddy to do too much. Commissioner Hernandez: I'm only one vote, but that's what I would like to see, to tell you the truth, the Census tract, to do it by Census tract and it would... Commissioner Plummer: If you feel that it's important, I think all of us should have the same answers down the line, and I have no problem with saying do it. Commissioner Hernandez: I think it's very important. I think that's the correct... I'm not saying that block is incorrect, but I think it would be more fair to... it would be a lot more fair to the rest of the community and I think would protect the integrity of the precincts that exist today, instead of splitting them in half. Commissioner Plummer: Well, your problem... Commissioner Gort: I talked to Professor Wilson on Friday and he's going to be standing by today and I'm sure you can get together with him. Some of the Commissioners here feel... and we also talked to the Elections Department, and the Elections Department believes that the way it was drawn by block, it breaks a lot of the precincts, and that's an additional cost. And not only the cost, but the information to the citizens, changing the precincts and giving different precincts, where to go to vote, that can cause a lot of confusion. So if it's possible, and you have it computerized and you can do it, we would like to see the new plan you're going to draw and the other two, the 6C, 2C, the 4-2C, if it's possible on the Census Tract. Dr. Lichtman: Do you want it on Census tract, or do you want it on precincts? Those are two different things. Commissioner Plummer: I would say both. Commissioner Gort: Well, my understanding is, the precincts here are drawn according to the Census tract... Dr. Lichtman: That may well be so. That, I don't know. Commissioner Gort: They're telling me no. Maybe you should use the precincts, because that's... Dr. Lichtman: You can use the precincts and... Commissioner Gort: Does that make it easier? Dr. Lichtman: ...bigger units than blocks. We can do it, of course. It will mean the plan will look a little bit different because we're just dealing... either... the larger units you deal with, the more difficult it is to craft the plan. Can we craft plans based on precincts? Absolutely, yes. Commissioner Plummer: Of course, you can do anything. Commissioner Gort: Okay. Commissioner Plummer: You know, what you were just saying, Humberto, is so true that it's so screwed up today, people who live in Bay Heights today have to drive by a precinct next door in the Museum to go down to the school on Miami Avenue and 12th Street. I mean, this is how screwed up the precincts are and how you lay out, so I question if you try to draw any kind of a zone from the precincts that exist today, they, in my opinion, are not representative... 28 June 28, 1997 Commissioner Hernandez: That's why we should go by Census tract. That's what I'm trying to say. Commissioner Plummer: I just don't see precincts being the answer, because precincts today are absolutely screwed up. Mayor Carollo: Professor, could you do that also by Tuesday? Commissioner Gort: On Census tract. Dr. Lichtman: I'm sorry, what was the question? Commissioner Gort: They have a little problem with the precincts in here, so they'd like to see it by... Commissioner Plummer: Little problem? Commissioner Gort: ...Census tract. Dr. Lichtman: Okay. I feel you're right about the precincts. You know, precincts are administrative units, they don't necessarily follow either neighborhood or geographic or population logic. They're not the same size, they're not the same number of persons, etc., nor are Census tracts, by the way, necessarily the same size, same shape, etc. We can draw a plan based on Census tracts. We can draw a plan based on precincts, but we will be in either case constrained by much larger units than blocks. You know, we can do it, I'm just explaining the trade-off there. Mayor Carollo: Could you also do that by Tuesday? Dr. Lichtman: I'm sorry, what was the question? Mayor Carollo: Could you do that by Tuesday? Dr. Lichtman: By what? Commissioner Gort: By Tuesday, could you have it by Tuesday? Dr. Lichtman: Have what, now? I'm not sure what it is you want us to do at this point. Commissioner Gort: By Census... Commissioner Plummer: We're not either, so don't feel bad. Commissioner Gort: Have the map by Census tract. Dr. Lichtman: Of the four map by Census tract, the six map by Census tract, and what about a five map? Commissioner Hernandez: And a five, and a five also. Dr. Lichtman: By Census tract and block, or Census tract? Commissioner Gort: Census tract alone. 29 June 28, 1997 :x at •c. i Dr. Lichtman: Every map by Census tract and block? Commissioner Gort: Census tract alone. Dr. Lichtman: You don't want to see a five the way we've done these plans, you want to see a five solely based on Census tracts, and you want to see a four and a six simply based on Census tracts. Commissioner Plummer: Excuse me, how're going to draw a comparison, if you don't have the five? You've got to have the other one to draw a comparison. You've got to have it. Dr. Lichtman: I would think you'd want every plan if you're going to have the four ... done by census tract. Commissioner Plummer: Apples to apples. Dr. Lichtman: I would think for an even-handed comparison, you'd want the five also configured in those two different... Commissioner Plummer: Yeah, fish to fish. Commissioner Gort: Okay, that'd be fine. Dr. Lichtman: I love adding work for myself, you know. Commissioner Gort: I understand, and we really appreciate it, but believe me, you'll receive a lot of recognition from all of us. Dr. Lichtman: We're working harder... Commissioner Plummer: Yeah, recognition, but not paycheck. Commissioner Gort: Professor, let me tell you something. Anything that happens in Miami, it becomes international news, so overnight, you and Professor Wilson will become international celebrities. Dr. Lichtman: I'm sure. Commissioner Plummer: My final question is... my final question, doctor, is, do you know anything about gates? i Commissioner Gort: Thank you very much, Professor. Dr. Lichtman: You're done? I'd better get ahold of Wilson right away. Commissioner Gort: Wait a minute, Professor, I have a question from one of the Blue Ribbon Committee. Mayor Carollo: If I may, former Commissioner Athalie Range will be addressing us. Miss Range? Ms. Athalie Range: May I? I believe I heard correctly. I'm concerned about a question that might have come up when the Professor said on the ballot we could also have, "do you want 30 June 28, 1997 districts?" My question is, who is going to word the ballot and what... would this be a question on the ballot as to do you want districts? Because... Mayor Carollo: I believe, Mrs. Range, that most likely instead of just having the question do you wantdistricts, period, we have to spell it out, do you want this type, this form of district government for a community. We have to be as specific as we possibly can. That would be my best judgment, but the City Attorney, who's competent, can certainly guide us on that. Ms. Range: I see. Because if that overrides the other question, I mean if we get "no" on that, then everything else is nil. Mayor Carollo: I agree, but legally I don't think we could even do it that way... Ms. Range: I see. Mayor Carollo: ...unless it would be a straw vote, which we don't want. We want something that's binding. Ms. Range: Well, I just wanted to be clear on that. Mayor Carollo: Thank you, ma'am. And... Commissioner Plummer: Athalie, we got another problem, too, September 4th. Mayor Carollo: By the way, since we have you up here, so I won't bring you back twice. Ms. Range: Yes. Mayor Carollo: Mrs. Range is one of the three co-chairmen of the Blue Ribbon panel. We want to thank you so very much for your time, your effort in coming to so many meetings and being here early this morning, also, along with some of the other members that are here. Thank you, Ms. Range. Ms. Range: Thank you. Commissioner Gort: I'd also like recognize Manty Sabetes-Morse, who's a member of the Blue Ribbon Committee and also a member of the School Board. And Mikki Canton, who's also a member of the Blue Ribbon Committee, so we are well represented here today by... Commissioner Plummer: We know Mandy's name. Do we get here address, does she not disclose that? Mayor Carollo: We have a few other members, I think, of the Blue Ribbon Committee here this morning. Commissioner Gort: Who else do we have? Mayor Carollo: I thought we had some others here... Commissioner Gort: Tucker is a sort of a member like. Commissioner Plummer: What else? Mayor Carollo: All right, gentlemen... 31 June 28, 1997 --------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------ 2. COMMENTS CONCERNING ELECTION TO EITHER RETAIN OR ABOLISH THE CITY OF MIAMI -- PROPOSED PAC (POLITICAL ACTION COMMITTEE) -- NEED TO CAMPAIGN TO SAVE THE CITY. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Commissioner Plummer: Mr. Mayor, this is a workshop, so we can ask questions. Mayor Carollo: Of course. Commissioner Plummer: Again, I am extremely concerned about the real ballot that is without any question on September 4th, abolish the City or not. I don't feel any momentum on what I consider to be our side of retaining the City. And somewhere along the line, we've got to put some people together to start that fight and bring it to a point, because at this point, they're organized, they've got money, they're telling their lies, we have no money. We got people, but we're not counteracting what they're putting out in fabrication. So I'm saying to you, every day... this is the third or fourth time, Mr. Mayor, I'm bring this up. Mayor Carollo: Commissioner, we understand, but I think that we've done a pretty good job, all of us working together here through the marathon that we have had to be running in, from... for some time now and I think that once we get done with this, right after the 4th of July, when we come back, by the loth, then we can deal with it. We'll still have two months. That'll be plenty of time for us to win and overwhelmingly campaign. Commissioner Plummer: Mr. Mayor, I would suggest to you that we each name five, four, six people, each Commissioner, to formulate a committee to start working on it now. They can form a PAC, (Political Action Committee) which a PAC can raise money for television and advertising... Mayor Carollo: Commissioner, we're getting involved here into an area that I prefer not to right now. Can we discuss it with the City Attorney? There has to be certain separations from government and the political process and what you're talking about is something that has nothing to do necessarily with some of the other matters that the City Attorney will address to us. It's certainly something that I do not believe would prohibit us from being able to discuss in a public forum, in a meeting between ourselves and the public, as long as we don't bring it back here. So if you could speak to the individual members of the Commission, Mr. City Attorney, explain to all of us what we could do or not do from up here. And let's bring it up at the next meeting, if you like, Commissioner. Commissioner Plummer: An not September 5th. I'm just... I am very concerned. I don't feel the swell. I hate to say that I agree with the Miami Herald on anything, but I think that their polls that they have shown, seem to be in our favor. But... Commissioner Gort: I wouldn't trust that. Commissioner Plummer: ...we... I don't trust it either, Willie. I don't. And I'll tell you something, I've seen these things turn around overnight by fabrication. Commissioner Gort: Let me ask a question. Mr. Mayor? Mayor Carollo: Yes, sir. 32 June 28, 1997 Commissioner Gort: Can we, as a Commissioner, not as a Commission... and somebody has to explain to me the difference between the Commission and the citizen. Am I a Commissioner at all times, or am I a Commissioner at some time and a citizen... Can we as citizens work together in this campaign? Because I think we all want to do the... Commissioner Plummer: As an individual, I'm going to work my butt off. Commissioner Gort: We all are, but I mean... Mayor Carollo: Of course, we can, but my question is doing it from up here, you know we could be crossing the fine line. So that's why I want the City Attorney to get back to us. Commissioner Gort: I understand. Here comes my question. Can we get together with a group of citizens and work on a campaign outside of City Hall? Mayor Carollo: Of course. Commissioner Gort: Okay. Commissioner Plummer: Well let me ask this question. Mr. City Attorney, am I... Mayor Carollo: I... Commissioner Plummer: Let me ask the question, Joe. Can the Mayor... Mayor Carollo: Don't I always let you ask at least a hundred questions a meeting? Commissioner Plummer: Well, this is 101 Dalmatians. Mayor Carollo: Well, that's the last one. Commissioner Plummer: Not fish, but Dalmatians. Can the Mayor ask the people of this community who might be interested in forming their own committee do so? Mayor Carollo: Yes. A. Quinn Jones, III, Esq. (City Attorney): He can do it, in his capacity... Commissioner Plummer: And people who want it to be known, that they would like to serve on a committee can contact individual Commissioners? Mayor Carollo: Yes, yes. Commissioner Plummer: Well, I mean let's do it. Let's do it. Mayor Carollo: We will be doing it. Let's just get a few more days and we'll start it off then, right after the 4th of July. Commissioner Plummer: Okay. I hope you got another job. You'd better know where the unemployment line is. Mr. Jones: I'll come work for your funeral home. 33 June 28, 1997 Mayor Carollo: This work session is adjourned. Thank you all for coming here this morning. Have a nice weekend. THERE BEING NO FURTHER BUSINESS TO COME BEFORE THE CITY COMMISSION, THE MEETING WAS ADJOURNED AT 8:52 A.M. Joe Carollo MAYOR ATTEST: WALTER J. FOEMAN CITY CLERK MARIA J. ARGUDIN ASSISTANT CITY CLERK 34 June 28, 1997