Loading...
HomeMy WebLinkAboutSEOPW OMNI CRA 2004-03-25 Minutesi 1 I Sunshine Meeting Convened by Commissioner Arthur E. Teele Commissioner Johnny L. Winton I I I City of Miami City Hall, COW Room 3500 Pan American Drive Miami, Florida March 25, 2004 1 I The meeting came to order at 2:14 p.m. with the following individuals in attendance: Commissioner Arthur E. Teele, Jr. i Commissioner Johnny L. Winton Joe Arriola, City Manager Alejandro Vilarello, City Attorney 1 March 25, 2004 Alejandro Vilarello (City Attorney): The tape's started. This is a sunshine law meeting between Commissioner Teele and Winton to discuss the settlement opportunities with -- in the Southeast Overtown/Park West and City versus Poinciana Village and Sawyer's Walk. Before we get started, I want to remind you that we are in active litigation on the -- on this case. The negotiation that we -- have been taking place, of course, are confidential as part of the settlement negotiation pursuant to Florida law. This meeting -- Commissioner Winton: The negotiations are confidential; !is that what you just said? ' Mr. Vilarello: Yes. Negotiations are confidential and we can keep it confidential. Of course, it's your privilege that anything you discuss at this meeting is at a public meeting, and of course, not -- you don't have the same privilege of confidentiality. Commissioner Winton: Well, I'll have to let you two help me here. Mr. Vilarello: I think you can talk about general issues. Clearly, just in terms of the specifics in the parameters that -- the overall settlement Commissioner Winton: OK. Mr. Vilarello: -- is what you should be limited to -- what we should limit our conversation on. The particulars and issues and particular concern of -- for each of you, I think that's appropriate for your discussion. Chairman Teele: Johnny, I had asked for a meeting particularly in light of the fact that I had had some substantial discussions with Joe Arriola and the Mayor on a couple of things that I was somewhat concerned had not been -- where we are in the vetting process. First and foremost, the appraisal of the land needs to be updated, and we need to Have alternate appraisals for residential versus commercial, versus mixed use. There may be -- you know, one of the things that never made a lot sense to me but still you sort of live through it, is why the land that the CRA (Community Redevelopment Agency) has conveyed in the RFPs (Request for Proposals) in the past were conveyed in a leasehold interest. I just -- Commissioner Winton: Right, right. Chairman Teele: It just never made sense to me. I mean, you know i� Commissioner Winton: It doesn't. It makes the projects much more difficult to get financed. I mean, if we were in New York City, lenders are used to it. Miami, they hate it. Chairman Teele: And one of the issues is that the existing Poinciana Village, for example, has a leasehold. You'll recall that we did a conversion of -- what was that project? Commissioner Winton: Arena Towers, was it'? Park -- Mr. Vilarello: Park Place? 2 March 25, 2004 0 Commissioner Winton: One of the -- yeah. Chairman Teele: Park .Place. I don't want to remind you of the fact that you had agreed to a number that was about one -tenth of what we wound up accepting. Commissioner Winton: I remember. It's OK if you remind me. Chairman Teele: I mean, and what I'm saying is this: Is that these things get very complicated. I! " One of the things that we ought to do as a part of the settlement, I think, is correct any -- treat all of this land as fee simple land, and I'in particularly concerned about the residents of Poinciana the existing Poinciana Village, where they are sitting there with a condominium interest in a leasehold property. Commissioner Winton: Oh, is that right? Mr. Vilarello: Oh, yes. Chainnan Teele: That makes no sense. Commissioner Winton: No, it doesn't. Chairman Teele: It makes no business sense. It's not fair to the -- you know, to the condo owners. I mean, it's one of the things that's sort of a technical thing, but it's very real, and particularly when you get to the conversion. The other thing is this, is the leasehold interest tends to give a distorted view as to what the value of the property really is. When you appraise property, you appraise it fee simple. Now, most appraisers treat a 99-year lease appraisal and a fee simple interchangeably. Most appraisers do, but once you get 10 years or 20 years run down on something, then they start discounting, and that's not really the true value of the property that's in -- I didn't know it was so many -- OK, that's not really the true value of the appraisal, is what we're dealing with, and so I'm extremely concerned about just malting sure that we're talking about apples and apples, and oranges and oranges, and I didn't know if you had looked at that or -- Commissioner Winton: I didn't even know that that was the case until you brought it up just now. Chairman Teele: And the fact of the matter is, when there is an appraisal process going on right now for the old arena and it just seems to me that the logical thing we could do is bootstrap whatever is going on there. I don't Imow who in the City staff is staffing all of this. I haven't seen any appraisals. I haven't even seen any requests for appraisal come through. That doesn't mean they aren't being done properly, but -- I mean, it would just be -- I mean, from the City's point of view. Commissioner Winton: See, I think there's a very interesting public policy question, and I think this does kind of fit, Alex, globally here. Very interesting public policy question, vis-a-vis the 3 March 25, 2004 arena site versus Poinciana Village, and that is this: Given what we're looking at -- back up a !' step. Appraised value is going to be a function of use and density (INAUDIBLE), and assuming you havedemand. If you don't have demand, it doesn't matter what's going on. The appraised value is going to be just comparable sales, there were none, values low, nothing. I don't care if it's zoned CDBG (Community Development Block Grant) unlimited height, whatever, but that is no longer the case in this whole arena, and the arena site itself, if you look at the value that's put on the table -- which I consider to be substantial -- and transfer the thought process about that value to the sites we're talking about, the public policy question becomes then this: If you create or try to link those two values, and I'm not sure -- and I don't think they were because they're zoned differently -- but you could probably, in fact, on a pure economic appraisal, where you're looking for maximums density, true highest and best use,i my guess is that if that's what your objective would be on the three, four- affected blocks, that you're going to get a value that is so high that you can't build the product type that's being called for. Chairman Teele: Yeah, but -- there's two or three things. That builds a lot of assumption. Nothing has been called for except what the Collins Center called for. What -- Commissioner Winton: Well, that's what -- I think that's what -- that's kind of how this is all being viewed right now. The proposal from the developer follows the Collins Center model relatively closely, in terms of density. It's all low-rise. I think there's one -- there's obviously one tower on the existing Poinciana block, but the rest of it's mid -rise, low-rise stuff. Mr. Vilarello: There's two more towers. Commissioner Winton: But it's -- Chairman Teele: No, no, no. He's right. It's one tower on the existing Poinciana blocs: that's called for on the extreme southwest conger -- quadrant of that block. Commissioner Winton: But the lion's share of the land.-- even though there may be another tower in there somewhere -- isn't going to be a tall tower, number one, and number two, it's low density, and so when you drive to low density, and if you want to keep values lower, you can't drive the cost of your land up. Chairman Teele: OK. Now -- Commissioner Winton: That's what I'm saying. Chain-nan Teele: Let's just put a full stop to this, Johnny, because this is -- Look, this is where we have to understand where we come for to understand where we are. I was not around, OK, for any of these studies. I can tell you -- Commissioner Winton: Which ones? Chairman Teele: The studies that gave us what you're offering, OK. The studies of Overtown that developed the model of the master plan of what the Collins Center and those people went 4 March 25, 2004 out for -- that was in 1981, 1982 -- designed to do, and I've said this at every point. What the litigant, Ted Weitzel, has done -- and notwithstanding anything else that may come into the play, the Poinciana Park development, which is what the master plan that we're -- that you're working off of now called for has been faithfully adhered to by Ted Weitzel, OK, with a positive result for the community, with a negative result for Weitzel, with a negative result for the City -- CRA. Why? Because if you go into those units, if you look at those units, those -- that development is reflective of the community in terms of the product, the low-rise product that was built -- go th- ough, do a head count. What is it, 68 units there or 64? You go do a head count. Ninety-two percent of the people are people who lived in that community or moved into that community ' with historical ties to that community, OK, and with all due respect to everything that Weitzel has done or not done, he's been faithful in the development of that particular product, which is what the rest. of it's called for. Now, the reason that it was low-rise, the reason it was all of this stuff, OK -- go back and you look at the studies, and Herb Bailey and Matthew Schwartz did these studies, OK. That's how Herb came to Miami. He came here as a consultant from Philadelphia, and Matthew was a personal assistant there for a product that was going to attract existing residents, et cetera. The average product mix in there now is about a hundred and fifty - - a hundred and forty thousand dollars a unit. I mean, you know, you can get the economic models out. I haven't looked. I know they had some prospectus out at a hundred and thirty-five for some stiff. Where I'm very concerned and where I'm very frightened is if this project is going to wind up being a gentrification project, OK, then there's no reason to stick with that model. There's no reason to stick with the -- let's call it for lack of a better term, the Poinciana model, which is what was called for. If we're going to gentrify the area, then I have no objections to going up to high-rise. I mean, that -- because the reason for -- the reason -- if you go get the studies that were done -- was to attract a resident or previous resident, or people who - - of Overtown or people who are comfortable in that environntent. I mean, you know, one of the guys that's in there is a deacon in St. Jolu1's Church, I believe. Is that right? Unidentified Speaker: Baker. Chairman Teele: Huh? Unidentified Speaker: Baler. Chairman Teele: Baker. He even lived there before, but he moved back. Commissioner Winton: Why can't that model work now? Chairman Teele: Well, that's what I'm going to basically be inquiring about as we go down the road. Is the model a market rate housing model where the units are going to be two hundred thousand dollars or up, or is the model going to be a -- let's call it a Poinciana Village model, where the economics are different? But I'll be damned if I want to see somebody come in and take land for a different model at the old model price, and then the results be something totally different. Commissioner Winton: No. I get the point. 5 March 25, 2004 0 1 0 Chainman Teele: Listen, I can get comfortable with the eventual gentrification of that area, if that is what we decide to do on a residential area, but what I can't get comfortable with is flying the Overtown or the Poinciana Village flag and building a product that nobody in Poinciana Village today could qualify for, and those are policy issues. Commissioner Winton: Absolutely, Chairman Teele: And what happened on the Collins study is they assumed -- you know, and I mean -- they assumed the master plan that is woefully outdated, woefully inadequate, woefully 1980 -- it doesn't reflect what has happened in this thing, and we're -- I mean, we're the ones who -- I mean, you know, we can't blame anybody because we own the land. We control the zoning. We control the plamling. We control the CRA. We control the master plan. I mean, you know, there is nobody to blame but us, but what I'm suggesting to you, Johnny, taking all factors into consideration relating to the market and all of that, relating to the project (UNINTELLIGIBLE), the County, just to approved, which is totally different from the -- Commissioner Winton: The original plans. Chairman Teele: -- the Poinciana plan, which is -- I mean, it doesn't make sense at all. You know, that building that they're proposing been right next to the building that we're talking about low-rise is going to be how many stories tall? Seventeen stories tail, so I mean, you know, like -- Commissioner Winton: But in developing this product -- and I don't want to get off on the developing because I want to stay focused on the bigger point because the primary point isn't about that County thing and I understand that, but a developer that's going to built these three blocks is going to build a little greaten- density there, town home style, 3-story, 4-story something if you're a developer, that creates a buffer between the 15-story -- you're not going to build a single-family home right there -- that's my point -- on the west side of the commercial project. You just wouldn't do that. Chainnan Teele: That was never envisioned. Commissioner Winton: What was never envisioned? Chairman Teele: A single-family home. Commissioner Winton: Well, but you're not -- The only problem with the high-rise there would be if you had single-family homes across the street. That was my point. There aren't going to be any single-family homes. Chairman Teele: Right. Commissioner Winton: So I don't consider the high-rise building to be in conflict with anything. { That's my point. A high-rise gets in conflict with things when you've got a high-rise jammed up against a single-family story -- single-family building, but you build buffers, and the buffer is created by density, so there's plenty of room there to create -- and that's my point. I don't want 6 March 25, 2004 to get stuck on what the County's doing over there because our global issue that I understand is a really good point. What's the real objective for those three parcels, and I'm still (INAUDIBLE). Chairman Teele: That's what I'm trying to hear from you., f Commissioner Winton: Well, I've been thinking -- Chairman Teele: Because, see what I'm saying to you, contrary to what you just said, once the County building crosses the railroad track and crosses the Metrorail, it is no longer buffered. I mean, whatever we're doing is no longer buffered. Commissioner Winton: Yes, it is. You buffer it by building height. Chairman Teele: Oh, OK. That's -- Commissioner Winton: It absolutely gets buffered. I' . Chairman Teele: It can't be buffered by building height. Commissioner Winton: Yes, yes. Very effectively so nobody gets hurt. Chainman Teele: Well, I don't see it as getting hurt in either event, but my point in this regard is the plan -- the Poinciana plan -- Commissioner Winton: That we're following. Chairman Teele: -- that got put out there as a plan is a plan that I'm not sure -- that if you went to the planning people, if you go to the -- you know, is the right model of what we ought to be doing, particularly when the result is going to be or could be different, and I don't know if we -- I haven't seen the pro forma. I understand that there was a pro forma for the three blocks, four blocks, and now everybody's trying to take those in and try to make it a 5-block pro forma, but the pro forma was a 3-block pro forma out there in the marketplace. That's very, very important. Commissioner Winton: Aren't -- is he -- Alex, Mr. Teele, in private with you, could see all of that; is that not correct? Chairman Teele: Did you get the pro forma? Commissioner Winton: The pro forma. Mr. Vilarello: With the original? Commissioner Winton: No. On -- relative to the model. ! Mr. Vilarello: We have the file. 7 March 25, 2004 I � l r Commissioner Winton: The model relative to what the projected price points are going to be for housing that's a part of this proposal. Mr. Vilarello: Sure. Commissioner Winton: OK, so the -- Chairman Teele: What are the price points? I mean, is it public? Mr. Vilarello: I don't believe so. It's part of the whole negotiations, but I don't have it handy. Chairman Teele: Well, they've been telling the conununity -- Mr. Vilarello: What they tell the community is not -- Commissioner Winton: And by the way, I don't remember either, so I want to look again. I think I remember, but I'm not clear. Chainnan Teele: I mean, part of -- Johnny, part of what'Tm insisting upon is "A" and `B, is due process. That's number one. Due process simply means two things: Notice and opportunity to be heard. That's -- all the legal mumbo jumbo is due process. Commissioner Winton: Right. Chairman Teele: The community is being told a lot of different things, depending on who they're talking to. I mean, I met with three different people yesterday and they all have three versions. G i, Commissioner Winton: No question. Chairman Teele: That's OK. That's a promoter's right. Commissioner Winton: No, no, no. It's not just promoters. It's -- you know, everybody has a different view and a different interest. Chainnan Teele: And what I'm saying in that is, at the point in time, if you basically have reached a comfort level on this, then we'd have to put it out there in a way that the public can understand, and that the community can participate in a discussion on this in a meaningful way, and of course, I've insisted -- insisted -- Commissioner Winton: Yeah. Chairman Teele: -- on a notice that this be done at the City and that the City put out (INAUDIBLE). In that regard, Johnny, the price points are going to really -- I mean, the price points are going to really be, I think, more important in formulating my thinking, because I can tell you this: If we were going to build Poinciana Parts 3 -- 2, 3, 4 -- assuming we're in 1 now 8 March 25, 2004 i I'i. and that's really IA -- I mean, 1F, I would have one reaction. It's more expensive. There's less profitability. There should be more incentive. If we're going to build a marketplace price point - Commissioner Winton: That's above everybody else. Chairman Teele: Well, not just above it but just in the market, just right in the market, then I'm going to have a totally different view of this because one price point is going to make development attractive to former Overtown residents, co6imunity. One price point will be no different from what's being built along -- some of the really nice stuff that's being built there right along the Omni and 17"', 19"', I mean, you know, just nice stuff, but nothing wrong with,it, but there shouldn't be a subsidy to do that in Overtown, in Overtown, and so that's sort of where I have just sort of not really taking a position because I need to understand what the price points are, and I understand the pro forma has been changed at least three times depending on whether you're talking about three blocks, four blocks, or six blocks, something like that, and -- Commissioner Winton: Well, it seems to me that what we -- in light of what you're saying -- what we might want to do is kind of a two-step process. You and I probably need to meet again because my job isn't to create the policy. Y'all just appointed me to try to get this deal i negotiated, as it was offered. That was my only job. My job isn't to unilaterally create public policy, and this price point issue is at the heart of the whole thing, so I think that Alex needs to meet with you and bring those pro foinias out so you can see what the projected price points are C . for the whole -- for all the housing; what the variances are. You think about it. We probably need to meet about it again, and then I can hear what your concerns and issues are and that can -- and I'm happy to -- because I know you're asking me for my opinion, so I'll be happy to give you my opinion again about that, and then we'll reach kind of a -- Can we reach a policy decision? OK. We'll reach a kind of a -- We'll be singing to the same sheet of music in the Commission -- Chairman Teele: We'll at least understand each other's point of view. Commissioner Winton: Yes, and the Commission can 'make the policy decision then about where this whole thing's going, and then I think we make the whole thing work. Chainnan Teele: That's very, I think, very helpful. Now, the nature of the land, the history of the land is historic property owners, et cetera. I can tell you I am not going to be involved in any type of tortuous interference, but it's my understanding that the Sawyer family has agreed to settle for -- Is that number disclosed'? Mr. Vilarello: It's disclosed confidentially to us. I'm not sure it's disclosed to the public. Chairman Teele: You know, and it would be my intent if there's absolutely no other way to do it, would be to go in and seek a judicial review of any settlement related to the Sawyers because they have been taken advantage of long enough, in my mind, with the City's support, predating all of us, you know. When you look at the kinds of numbers that are being thrown around, and 9 March 25, 2004 the kinds of breakdown as far as 20 percent of the land, you know, only because they own the land. That's my issue. They own the land. Commissioner Winton: Do they own all the land? Chainnan Teele: No, but they own the heir rights, which the City contained in all of their documents that the previous owners or owners of property had the bonus points, so when you go through it, you read the City documents that let these bids out. The Sawyers were bid in all of the bids because they were the ones that carried the bonus points for the -- Commissioner Winton: For development rights Chairman Teele: -- for the development rights, you see, and to me, it is a very, very, you lmow, integrity issue at the core of -- why even be alive if you're going to let people be exploited? And h I don't care what they do. I don't care what they do. It's got to be fair and it's got to be right, and I would seek judicial review of that, but that's not your issue and my issue. I just want you to understand where I'm coming from, because I am the Commissioner that represents the area, and even if they agree to something that is totally unreasonable or clearly something -- if a judge would agree, then let's let a judge agree. Now, all of a sudden, it appears -- and without getting involved in the proposed settlement uproar in depth, you need -- I've been told -- and I don't know this to be true -- that there were at least three entities that were brought in by the Collins Center, who made offers. The -- you lalow, and,we'll get to -- Commissioner Winton: News to me. Chairman Teele: I have verified that because Armando Codina apparently was one of the group, and Armando (INAUDIBLE). See, you need to understand, Johnny -- now, you know, you can't wash your hands and just say this -- you need to deal with what the Collins Center is bringing you, and the thinking and the documents that went out, if you're going to base your decision on what's at hand, OK. Now -- Commissioner Winton: Well, I'm not sure I'm in agreenment with this. I don't -- that wasn't what I was tasked to do. I was tasked by you all to negotiate a deal with the developer that's sitting at the table. I wasn't asked to vet, review, do a historical analysis of any prior developers, anybody else. Chainnan Teele: But you can't do that, Johnny, without looking at, at least, the RFP documents, and the documents that got the developer to the table. I mean, it's just -- I mean, you know, you Commissioner Winton: I could look at the RFP documents to make sure they're following the RFP, but frankly, I'm counting on our legal counsel to have done that, you know. Pm Just -- I'm negotiating terms and conditions. Chainnan Teele: Let me just help you -- 10 March 25, 2004 0 Mr. Vilarello: When we talk about the deviation. Chairman Teele: Let me just help you with one thing. Because the way you set up this equation has a unique parameter. I would urge you to tall: to some of the people that have been involved at an arm's length distance, like Armando Codina, and others, and understand why you're talking to the development team that's there, based upon the proposals that have been submitted. Commissioner Winton: Who's the development team? Chairman Teele: I don't know. I have it somewhere, but I'll find out, OK, but I just -- Commissioner Winton: Well, obviously, I know Annando very well so I can call him. Chairman Teele: And I don't want to go into that, but that's going to be a very important point on why this developer supposedly has a lock on the deal with the City. Now, when this went out, there's only one issue on the table -- two issues on the table: Sawyer's Walk and Poinciana. Johnny, I cannot accept anything beyond that, those two' Listen. There's no other litigation. This document should not refer and attempt to require .the City or the CRA to do anything beyond the four corners of what the report -- Commissioner Winton: And you're talking about 35 and (INAUDIBLE) Chairman Teele: I'm talking about 35 and (INAUDIBLE), and I want to urge you to consider this. Absorption, price point, market forces are going to equate to one thing. We'd be lucky if 25 percent of these residents are African-Ainerican, or come from the traditional Overtown area. Probably a more realistic number is substantially lower., If we put in enhancements, this, we ; would be lucky with 25 percent. This is going to be the largest gentrification project in the history of the state of Florida since Frenchtown in Tallahassee, Fortunately, that was a university, FSU (Florida State University) coming in, so there's a public policy purpose. The other two blocks have got to be maintained for a competitive process that gives deference and rise to the community of Overtown. Let me make some points for you. Number one, the whole thing's miszoned. The whole thing is miszoned; '81, '82 zoning, you know. Those two blocks - - there's no reason those two blocks should be zoned strictly residential. They should be mixed use -- Every plan that I've looked at that's come out of the community -- BAME, St. John, Lyric Theater, everybody's got mixed use, but the zoning, again,, has residential, number one.' Number Commissioner Winton: And I agree with you. All the: plans have shown mixed use, which includes residential. Chairman Teele: Number two, the Entertainment District is abutting -- but for the railroad tracks, abutting this area. There's literally no black participation in -- there's very little -- there's no black ownership in any of the Chub District. On the south end -- or the west end of this parcel is the Lyric Theater, which is the entertainment area, so it seems to me that rather than trying to create a massive over -gentrification project, we would create a project that would have at least the mixed use combination of entertainment and that would compliment the Lyric Theater, that would compliment the district across the track. We coul&even redesign the 24-11our district and 11 March 25, 2004 bring that over there to the extent that -- Greater,Bethel -- Reverend Gaddis doesn't jump up and down. The Uniqueness of Overtown -- the history of Overtown is you had nightclubs right next to churches, and everybody -- Commissioner Winton: And it worked. Chainnan Teele: -- and it worked, and I think that energy still exists. There have been at least five proposals for hotels that I'm aware of -- (BREAK IN RECORDING DUE TO CHANGING OF TAPE) Chairman Teele: The commitment was -- and there was, by the way, a black -- not only minority -- but a black business participation plan that was a condition of the grant that I gave the County. I know it was up for grabs, until they did a plan, so -- I mean, I'm saying the same thing in 2004 that I said in '83, '84 when I did -- there has to be black participation. There has to be black participation. Commissioner Winton: hi what? I'm missing the point. Chairman Teele: In this development concept of what we were trying to do, which is, to take the land -- See, the original concept, Johnny, just so you understand this. When we built the Overtown -- the station there in Overtown, when the County -- that was all just very, very dilapidated and (INAUDIBLE) were in there and that was -- it was very, very dilapidated. The plan was that there would be a redevelopment, 1primarily, housing, and hotel and retail. There was at least three plans, including the black participation plan that included a hotel concept. At least -- I've seen at least three different hotel concepts. What I'm suggesting, Jolumy, is that there is no shortage of commitments that have been made;to this community, and I will go back and -- I ordered myself to start going back and researching from 1981, '82, '83, when all those promises were being made about what would be here as a condition of getting this money, OK; the commitments that the City and the County made, and one of those commitments that I remember very distinctly was the hotel, because Tibor 'Harlor came up to Washington with Marty Fine, and they were going to back this. With all good intents, the market wasn't ready for that, and on, and on, and on, but, you know, we have to question whether or not there may be that potential there. Commissioner Winton: There is a training hotel that is a part of the proposed development scheme here. I probably guess I shouldn't talk a whole lot.more about the detail, but -- Mr. Vilarello: That's outside of our purview in this. Commissioner Winton: That's not on our site Mr. Vilarello: That's not on our site. Commissioner Winton: Oh, it's on another different site, Ii guess. If I 12 , March 25, 2004 Mr. Vilarello: That's -- I guess, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) plans. Chainnan Teele: You see, the whole thing here 4s this, is that one developer's got the insight or t ; the institution knowledge, even more than you have, and .in some ways, we're being --the City may be being taken advantage of, but the point tliat I'm making -- that I want to make very clear is this: There should be some opportunities set aside on those -- If those four blocks -- which are the subject now of the litigation -- we need to make an affirmative commitment -- and we need to go back and look at the documents --that we're going to keep face with the black community and the Overtown community, as we have promised .year after year, after year, after year, particularly, as far as the commercial and business development. Because at the end of the day, there's one issue, Johnny. Jobs. Now let me tell you something, Jolumy, just so you know. The City has approved the demolition of the -- I mean, the sale of the old arena, OK. I didn't vote on it. Didn't get in it, didn't male a public statement, because if I had had to do it, I would've voted no. You know why? Because nobody gives a -- Commissioner Winton. I have no idea why. Chairman Teele: -- nobody gives a damn about the jobs. Look, Overtown has one huge problem. Commissioner Winton: There aren't any jobs iii that damn arena now. There's no business in the arena. Chainman Teele: Johnny, trust me. Trust me, Johnny. I can -- ' Y Y Commissioner Winton: We could replace those jobs. p I Chairman Teele: If that were the conscious decision. If that were the conscious decision, but there's no plan for that. Commissioner Winton: Yeah. Well -- Chairman Teele: There's no plan for that. Commissioner Winton: There may not be a plan -- Chairman Teele: I asked -- I asked -- Commissioner Winton: Wait, wait, wait. I will suggest to you very strongly that you and ire, in particular, have done above and beyond and succeeded at doing things to create jobs when we I put our mind to it. The fact that that hasn't come on the table yet is just because this is a real estate transaction, and it's moving fast. It doesn't mean that we can't solve the problem once the problem's identified, and I don't take offense to the fact that it wasn't thought of up front. Chairman Teele: I didn't even know you knew anything about it. 13 March 25, 2004 • • i Commissioner Winton: I knew about it. f Chairman Teele: I'm glad you did. Commissioner Winton: Well, I got the phone call Chairman Teele: But, Jolulny -- Commissioner Winton: I said, you go -- here's where you !go. Chairman Teele: Johnny, I represent the district`, and let me just tell you something. When that stadium was built, a commitment was made as a result of the black business participation agreement that I made them sign, as a federal official, that the jobs would go first for the Overtown residents. You go over there and look at who's working the back end jobs in that place -- the back end jobs. None of the white collar jobs -- I've been in the office. Every time I go there, I want to throw up. None of the white collar jobs in there are African -American, but I can tell you this. There's not a month that goes by that I don't get a complaint about some j discriminatory treatment, primarily from residents of Overtown, about how they were called in to do this. That place creates -- on an annualized basis I would guarantee you, Joluln and I will " document it for you -- at least 30 jobs on an annualized basis, which is very, very meaningful in Overtown. The biggest restaurant we got in Overtown is People's Barbecue, the biggest business in Overtown. I mean, to you, that may not be a big deal. The biggest business in Overtown is People's Barbecue. Commissioner Winton: When you build this residential complex right here in front of us, that has people with disposable income, you will create more than 30 jobs as spinoff for the local businesses that are going to have product to sell to people that are living here. That's what residential development brings to any community. It brings spending power, and residential development leads all other development, not the, other way around. Chairman Teele: Johmry, that may be beautiful, in terms of your experience, but let me tell you about Overtown's experience. Let me just tell you about this. Commissioner Winton: Arthur, Arthur. Chairman Teele: Jolulny, Johnny. Commissioner Winton: Arthur. Chairman Teele: Johnriy. Commissioner Winton: I'm -- Listen, I'll be glad -- Y'all asked me to negotiate this deal. I'm stepping back. Chairman Teele: Johnny. 14 March 25, 2004 i i Commissioner Winton: I'm not going to be involved in negotiations anymore. It ain't worth my -- you know. I understand a lot more than you are giving pie credit for understanding, and I also understand very clearly that for the first time in 40 years-- that you're talking about right now about screwing Overtown; that's what you're talking about -- we have an opportunity now to do something. That's all I'm trying to do. If it ain't working -- if it doesn't meet°what you're -- I don't mind. I'll step aside. Chairman Teele: Johnny, listen to what I'm saying. Where do you take the offense in me saying that the jobs are what we're trying to generate. Commissioner Winton: I didn't take -- Chairman Teele: I started out by saying I can live with the four blocks. Commissioner Winton: But I'm not sure -- I'm not sure we have to. Chairman Teele: Joluiny, I started out by saying I can live with -- Commissioner Winton: I know. Chairman Teele: I don't necessarily want to say that I'm going to, but I said I can. Emotionally, I can live with the four blocks because of what you're saying; because of the spinoff of jobs. Although -- I mean -- Commissioner Winton: But I think we might be able to do both. Chairman Teele: But, Johnny, just hear one point. Commissioner Winton: All right. My apologies. Chairman Teele: Hear one point. Hear one point. Who has talked to you -- In all of the dah, dah, dah -- who's talked to you about the longshoremen? Commissioner Winton: Well, I'm trying to remember who, but someone. Chairman Teele: Johm-iy, let me tell you. Commissioner Winton: Someone. Chairman Teele: Let me tell you something. Longshoremen jobs -- we'll set a sunshine law meeting at 5:30 in the morning so you can understand because it's like the Club District. If you go there today, you won't even have a clue as to what's ,going on. You got to go to the Club District at 5 a.m., Sunday morning -- Commissioner Winton: Agreed. 15 March 25, 2004 • • Chairman Teele: -- to have a clue. Commissioner Winton: Right. Chairman Teele: Johnny, you don't have a clue -- trust me -- about what is happening with the longshoremen, and what this is going to do to them. I spent the better part of the first year trying to negotiate a settlement between the Poin -- the new -- once we built the back end of Poinciana between the new -- the last edition to the Poinciana -- OK, you know -- I'm telling you the truth - - and the longshoremen, and they were dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. When I (UNINTELLIGIBLE) dah, dah, dah, the longshoremen. Look, the average longshoreman makes seventy thousand dollars a year in this town. Every church in this City is Successful in the black community largely based upon -- Commissioner Winton: Longshoremen support. Chainnan Teele: -- including the longshoremen support. You talk to any minister and say, do you have a longshoreman. Who is the biggest giver, etcetera? We've got to understand the longshoremen's needs and what this is going to do because I'm telling you, Johnny, moving -- Commissioner Winton: This was a parking issue for them, right? Chairman Teele: It's more than parking. It's a -- it is a Miami River issue. You know the Miami River issue'? Commissioner Winton: Oh, yeah. Very well. Chairman Teele: OK. It's aMiami River issue with them, and if we don't put in some covenants, if we don't do the kind of stuff, you know, we're not -- and these people have been there since 1930. They shouldn't have to move. They shouldn't have to talk about relocating them and all of that, and so, those are the things, Johrmy, that I want to put on the table, particularly, as it relates to the two blocks across 8"' Street., See, I see 8"' Street -- Commissioner Winton: These streets? These two? Chairman Teele: The ones by the Lyric Theater. Commissioner Winton: Yeah, OK. That's it. (INAUDIBLE) Chairman Teele: Yeah. Because the longshoremen's union hall is directly in front -- Commissioner Winton: Right here. Chairman Teele: See, we tried to shift them down from behind Poinciana, which is here, over to here. Commissioner Winton: This is the Lyric. 16 March 25, 2004 Chaiiinan Teele: And by the way, they were a significant property owner, as well, when the City took the land -- or bought the land, so all that I'm saying to you is, particularly, let's be very careful about how fast we just throw this thing up and say -- based on one, a plan that I think is a 1982/83 plan. I have no problems with more intensive development. Don't misunderstand what I'm saying. I don't have a problem with the more intensive development, particularly on the two blocks closest to the Metrorail station. In fact -- Commissioner Winton: (INAUDIBLE) Chairman Teele: In fact, Johnny, I'll tell you. There are transit policies that are already against What it is you and I were having that -- about the buffer and all of that -- and all of that. Commissioner Winton: I don't disagree with you. ;. Chairman Teele: Because 2ic1 Avenue is the buffer -- Commissioner Winton: Yeah. Chairman Teele: -- going down there. 2ic1 Avenue is a major buffer. 8t" Street is a buffer, but the two blocks on the west side of 8t" Street -- Johmly, you know, the -- bootstrapping those two into the -- I don't care what it takes to make the numbers work, I'm willing to do it. If it means giving them more density, FAR (Floor Area Ratio), whatever, on the other four blocks, but don't let them use these other two blocks, because let me tell you. You're going to bump into a real problem with the longshoremen, with the community, with -- probably even, at the end of the day, Lyric Theater, not to argue their issues, but they need parking, and one of the things that everybody's -- Commissioner Winton: No, no. We've got to have parking, right. Chairman Teele: -- taking for granted, Johnny -- Let me tell you what the thing everybody takes for granted is parking. You know why? Because it's six parking lots out there. Six -- so, but You don't realize -- Commissioner Winton: They ain't seeing them. Right. i Chainnan Teele: -- that once you build on them, you erase those parking lots. Do you know how many parking spaces the Lyric Theater has dedicated to them right now? Seven or nine parking spaces. It's a -- it'll be -- we'll be building another Caribbean Marketplace, at the end of the day. The fact is that the longshoremen need at least 200 to 300 parking spaces right now, but because we've got them -- Commissioner Winton: But I'll tell you, with all due respect to the longshoremen -- because I was at their building today -- the longshoremen need to' become a part of this team because, frankly, their building needs redone. That building -- you've got the Lyric Theater, that's absolutely magnificent, and the longshoremen's building that's a piece of crap; looks like hell. 17 March 25, 2004 u They got to clean it up. if they're going to be a real part of that, they've got to -- they're the anchor to the community, clean the building up. You've got a beautiful Lyric Theater that everybody spent a fortune on here, we're expanding. They've got to be a part of this. I encourage them to be a part of this. Chairman Teele: .Johnny, 1 have no problems with treating the longshoremen the same way we treat other developers. If we want to do a facade program, then what do we put into -- Commissioner Winton: Good. Chairman Teele: What did we put into the -- Commissioner Winton: An excellent facade program. Chairman Teele: What did we put into the --Where's the CRA staff? Where did we put -- How much money did we put into that building -- i Commissioner Winton: Solomon Yuken. Chairman Teele: -- Solomon Yuken building? About six hundred -- eight hundred thousand dollars to do the facade, clean it up? Commissioner Winton: I think so. Chairman Teele: 1 don't have a problem doing that. I mean, you know, I can tell you one thing. We can do -- Joe Arriola (City Manager): There she is. You could ask her. Chairman Teele: She doesn't know. Commissioner Winton: Yeah, but anyway, that's not the point. That's not -- Chainnan Teele: We could do it or either lie can do it because I can tell you one thing. They got a -- five CPA (Certified Public Accountant) firms and a union pension fund team that's -- you know, that sits over there and overlooks every dollar they spend, and they would have a more difficult time putting money for facade improvements -- Commissioner Winton: Oh. Chairman Teele: -- than the guy that you just mentioned on his tax stuff. Commissioner Winton: Unless we convince everybody that's kind of looking over their shoulders that it's -- that it creates real value for the union, which I wouldn't mind sitting down at the -- but that's -- but I'm saying, you know (INAUDIBLE) 18 March 25, 2004 Chairman Teele: I have no objections to working to upgrade any of the historical businesses, but the only thing that I'm saying is that's what the TIF (Tax Increment Fund) dollars are there for, and TIF dollars -- and there's no need to ask the people to pay twice. They're paying the taxes. They've been paying the taxes. They've been there since 1939. Commissioner Winton: So kind of recap for me key issues that you want me to focus on. 1 Chairman Teele: Key issues that I really would appreciate your focus on is, number one, from a global point of view, whether or not -- particularly as it relates to the two easternmost parts -- we're chasing a plan that's totally outdated -- Commissioner Winton: Great point. Chairman Teele: -- and totally misses the mark, both in terms of the marketplace and what has happened in the abutting and adjacent area, going even back to Metrorail Metro policy of high density abutting Metrorails, et cetera, et cetera. Commissioner Winton: Yeah. Chairman Teele: Number two is the whole equity issue, as it relates to the historic property owners, and recognition -- recognition, if you will -- of the fact that the land on that parcel -- the third parcel on the back -- was the site of the Mary Elizabeth Hotel, and there should be some historic reference. Commissioner Winton: I lost that. I'm sorry. Tell me that again, now. i Chairman Teele: Here's Lyric. Commissioner Winton: So in this picture, that would be Teamsters. Chairman Teele: No, no, no. Commissioner Winton: Because this -- These are the existing Poinciana. Chairman Teele: No. Mr. Vilarello: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Chairman Teele: No. Mr. Vilarello: 46 Poinciana Village. Commissioner Winton: Yeah. This is existing Poinciana. Parking lot, parking lot. Three -- Chainnan Teele: Is this -- Show me the Lyric Theater. i. 19 March 25, 2004 Commissioner Winton: Right here. That's Lyric. See,: they got these pictures that aren't to scale. Chairman Teele: This is wrong. Unidentified Speaker: That's longshoreman way up there. Chairman Teele: This is the existing Poinciana. Unidentified Speaker: That's correct. Chairman Teele: This is where the tower is supposed to be. Unidentified Speaker: That's correct. Chairman Teele: This land -- this lot right here -- Commissioner Winton: Where the trees are. Chairman Teele: -- right where the trees are -- was the Mary Elizabeth Hotel. Commissioner Winton: OK. Got that right now Chairman Teele: This is the historic Sawyer -- Dr. Bill Sawyer, who founded Jackson -- co- founded Jackson Hospital. These are the two parking lots next to the Metrorail right here, but what I was saying is that we need to somehow acknowledge the historical -- Commissioner Winton: Oh, OK. Yeah. Chairman Teele: -- significance, as well as the equity there, and on 45 and 56, we need to really look at the density, the FAR -- Mr. Arriola: Well, so what we're basically saying is to get that, we'll give you more density. Commissioner Winton: You could, but these come out? Chairman Teele: But these were never in. That's my point. Unidentified Speaker: I understand. Commissioner Winton: But it was their proposal. Mr. Arriola: It was their proposal. Commissioner Winton: (INAUDIBLE) you're saying. (INAUDIBLE), 20 March 25, 2004 0 . 0 Chairman Teele: And then, on 25 and 36, let's look at really bringing in the City Planning staff and the -- and look at updating this; looking at this as an extension, Johnny, of this over here, as l I an extension of the Club District. Commissioner Winton: Exactly. Chairman Teele: You know the Club District goes -- Commissioner Winton: Complete link. Because that linkage coming right through here, right there to the Lyric is the -- has the anchor right as the western anchor. Chairman Teele: This should be -- you know, it's the chicken and the egg thing, and it's kind of dangerous to have this discussion here because let me tell you. The land on the east side of Miami Avenue has a value twenty-five to forty-five dollars higher than the land on the west side of Miami Avenue. That's the incremental value of the Club District. You can go right to Miami Avenue -- you can go to Miami Avenue and 1Ot", or 1 1 ", and you look at the prices directly across the street. I'm talking about vacant land, so you don't -- we don't want to do that, but I'm saying -- I'm saying that in looking at that, there are hotel, ,Club District -- Commissioner Winton: I agree. f i Chairman Teele: -- you know, mixed use residential, maybe even some rental kind of things, you know, that gives the people that live in the community a chance to -- Commissioner Winton: Absolutely. Mr. Arriola: Live/work type of -- Chairman Teele: -- live/work -- well, not necessarily live/work lofts, but -- Mr. Arriola: I mean, not loft. Commissioner Winton: And it's a price point. Chairman Teele: The price point -- and, you know, I'll tell you the perfect model of what -- the Gate -- I always call them Gateway. Commissioner Winton: Gatehouse. Chairman Teele: -- but the Gatehouse kind of project, that's the price point that will get people i, from Overtown in that community. Because if you go to Gatehouse, there are more African- ! f ! Americans living in Gatehouse than in any of the other projects in the area, which shows that if it's priced right, they want to be in the Overtown area. Commissioner Winton: Right. Well, I -- and I meant to say that earlier and I didn't get -- It is -- that objective is about price point, and we can do that, and particularly, if we structure this right, 21 March 25, 2004 • • we can create the economics that will bring the appropriate subsidies, support, building here to make the price points work. Absolutely can. Chairman Teele: Exactly. And I think there are probably three CDCs (Community Development Corporations) that I know of that have plans to build something that would work over here. i Commissioner Winton: Yeah and that complements. Chairman Teele: And I think -- that complements -- and I think whatever we do, we need to have a clear policy that rolls over fi-om the original policy that we're going to give preference to those businesses and organizations and entities that are in the community that are dah, dah, dah; same kind of thing that we did before, and I think we can have a win -win situation. I; Commissioner Winton: Great. OK, and so -- I'm very comfortable with all that. i, Chairman Teele: And I'm very comfortable that you continue. Mr. Arriola: Great plans (INAUDIBLE) Chairman Teele: But I still insist on a 5:30 a.m. sunshine law meeting. 22 March 25, 2004 THERE BEING NO FURTHER BUSINESS, THE MEETING ADJOURNED AT 2:53 P.M MANUEL A.DIAZ MAYOR ATTEST: Priscilla A. Thompson CITY CLERK Sylvia Scheider ASSISTANT CITY CLERK 23 March 25, 2004